EP 411 - Most families don’t just feel grief when someone dies - they feel anger.

Anger about the mess, the debt, the confusion, and the things nobody sorted out.

In this episode of Business Without BS, we have the conversation most people avoid - but absolutely shouldn’t.

We talk about what actually happens if you die without a plan, why love isn’t flowers and chocolates, and how a few uncomfortable decisions can completely change your family’s future.

This isn’t about being wealthy. It’s about being responsible.

We cover:

What happens if you die without a will (and why modern families are hit hardest)

Why unmarried partners are often left with nothing

Life insurance: what it really does, how cheap it can be, and when it matters most

Powers of attorney and the nightmare families face without them

Business owners, shares, and the chaos nobody plans for

Why “I didn’t get round to it” is one of the worst legacies you can leave

This conversation is uncomfortable, but it might be the most loving thing you ever do for the people you care about.

*For Apple Podcast chapters, access them from the menu in the bottom right corner of your player*

Spotify Video Chapters:

00:00 The Importance of Wills and Life Insurance

01:14 The Consequences of Not Planning Ahead

02:05 Meet the Experts: Financial and Legal Advisors

02:37 Understanding Wills and Intestacy Rules

09:49 The Importance of Communication and Regular Updates

12:34 Life Insurance: Protecting Your Loved Ones

22:29 Power of Attorney: Ensuring Your Wishes Are Honored

37:47 Understanding Income Protection

39:16 The Importance of Life Insurance

39:53 Building Financial Security

41:17 Starting the Conversation on Wills

44:21 Choosing the Right Executor

47:01 Navigating Probate and Inheritance Tax

51:47 Managing Digital Assets

01:06:08 Final Thoughts on Financial Planning

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When someone dies, their family doesn't stay sad.

They often get angry.

Angry about the mess, the debt, the confusion, the stuff nobody sorted out.

Valentine's Day is supposed to be about love, but if you really care about your family, flowers and chocolates just don't cut it.

In this episode of Business without bs, we're talking about wills, life insurance, guardianship.

And why I didn't get round to it is one of the worst legacies you can leave behind.

This is uncomfortable, but.

But it is necessary.

And it's one of the most important conversations you'll ever listen to.

But it isn't even a fraction as important as the conversations we hope it leads to to protect your loved ones.

Hello and welcome to Business without bs.

And today we have a Valentine's Day special.

This time, instead of talking about flowers and chocolates and where you're going for dinner, we're gonna talk about something less romantic but.

But far more loving, I would argue, because if you do really care about your family or your partner, really, if you've got anyone who relies on you or you're in a relationship with in life, then you don't want to leave them a mess.

Bad things happen.

Many bad things have happened to people close to me, and I'm sure you know many examples yourself.

It's life.

We die unexpectedly or expectedly.

And there are many things you could do when that happens to help your family and your loved ones have a much better situation than you could.

And I'm sure you may have also experienced where someone dies and people are very sorry about it, and then you may speak to them a few weeks later and they could be quite angry too, about the person that they've lost, the mess they've left, the debt they've messed, the problems that they've left, the family.

You know, I saw one of those recently and everyone adored this person, lovely person, left absolute chaos behind them.

And so quite quickly shifted from, oh, we love him, we miss him, what a perfect person, to God, how selfish of him to leave us with all this nightmare to sort out.

So we've got two absolute experts on the subject.

We've got Andrew Thomas, a financial service advisor who lives and breathes protection and planning, shall we say.

And we have Gemma Hotter, a private client and property lawyer who is also step qualified, which is basically a private client.

I deal with trusts and estates.

Yeah, yeah.

So private client is one of those terms people throw around in the profession, professional industries, that nobody else really understands what it means.

But just basically, what does it mean?

It Means looking after family.

It means everything that we're going to be talking about today.

So everything to do with wills, estates, inheritance tax, planning, all that kind of thing.

So when someone says, oh, you're a private client, you know, don't expect a special doorway and, you know, a special private club and.

Shame, isn't it?

I'll give them a glass of champagne.

Glass of champagne.

Champagne, absolutely.

But it's more just about your private affairs, I assume the history of that term comes from.

So, yeah, this is our Valentine's edition.

I think you probably should still buy flowers if you're doing that for your misses or the perverse for a man.

I. I recommend for a man a remote control car.

We love remote control cars.

Would be.

I guess.

I did put a will in front of my husband last Valentine's Day as a private client lawyer.

That's how romantic I am.

I did expect flowers in return.

There is something about it that we put off.

There is something about these things that we just.

We don't have to do them.

There's no deadline.

Well, there is sort of a deadline, but we don't know when that deadline is.

Nobody's going to pop up.

Like the tax man saying, you haven't done your will, so it's really on you to take that moment to think about it.

I think also, people don't like thinking about their deaths, do they?

Yeah.

Yeah, definitely.

And people, especially when you're younger and having lost a young sister, a sister who's died young with young kids and stuff, I mean, she, she.

She had some warning because she had cancer stuff, but, you know, nothing is promised.

You don, you know, you think, oh, I'm 40, it'll be fine.

It's like it might well not be.

In fact, statistics would say there's a damn good chance it won't be, you know, so let's.

Let's strip this back.

Let's.

Let's start with just a simple question.

Now, we're looking at two different disciplines here, so let's start with Gemma.

With you.

What, when you strip it back, what does looking after your family actually mean in your world?

I think it's very different depending on what stage of life you're in.

So as you say, many people won't think about their wills when they're young and they might not need to, because if they don't have a will in place, then the intestacy rules will apply and that might be good enough for them.

You said a complicated word.

Sorry.

Intestacy rules.

Yeah.

So if you don't have a will.

This is what happens to all of your belongings if you pass away.

So if you don't have a will and say if you are single, you don't have any children, then everything goes to your parents.

If you are married and you don't have children, everything goes to your spouse.

Yeah.

If you are not married and you do have children, everything goes to your children.

So if the intestacy rules work for whatever your situation is, that might be fine and you might not need a will.

But for many people those rules don't really work for a modern day family.

So say if you are married and have children, what happens is that your spouse gets the first £275,000 of your estate plus half of the remainder and the other half goes to your children.

That's the standard by the way.

These are British rules.

British rules.

So you've got to be in Britain when you die or what?

So this is if you are long term resident in the UK and it also applies to your UK situated assets as well.

So basically if you have no will, she gets, assuming you, assuming you've got a few quid, you know, she gets 275, she so terrible.

They, the other half get £275,000 past half of the remaining remaining assets.

Yeah, half of the remainder.

And the kids just get half the remainder.

Yeah, exactly.

Split between them.

And that might not say if you've got a substantial estate and you're going to have to pay inheritance tax, that might not be great because not married.

Is very popular now.

Yeah.

If you're not married, even though, you know, say if you've been cohabiting with someone, you're in a long term relationship, you've been with them for 20 years or so, you want them to get everything but actually they're not entitled to anything under the intestacy rules.

So they would actually have make a claim to court if they were going to get anything, which is a horrible, arduous process when you're already grieving.

You know, they're just not provided for.

So I think, you know, in our world we often look at the numbers, don't we?

And the, and the hard facts of who gets the money, where and what does tax rates apply.

I see the, a lot of the value in wills in that it allows you to put some direction as to what you'd like to happen, you know, and as you said, if people have got mixed families, you know, second relationships, stepchildren, all sorts of things can get really complicated.

And having A document that sets out, okay, this is what I'd like to happen if I'm not around.

Even if it's not just about the money particularly, it could be you want to make a particular legacy, you know, some jewelry or something.

I'd like it to go to that, that particular daughter or this son.

You know, it's.

Having that written down is really, really powerful for those that are left behind.

I think you think about your own family structure.

If that person wasn't around, what would they like to happen?

You don't always know, do you?

And it's very difficult conversations to have around the Christmas dinner table.

What would you like to have?

Having something written down does give that guidance to family.

So it's not always about the monetary figures.

Is that the first thing you both think you should do?

The first thing I'm sitting there thinking, well, I haven't done anything at the moment.

Should I start with a will?

I would say a will or possibly life insurance to make sure that your family is protected if anything happens to you when you pass away, make sure that there is some money there pretty much immediately.

I suppose you think about typical life stages that come along.

There's lots of assumptions here.

You know, you find a partner, you may buy a, buy a property.

That might be a good point to think about a will.

You know, me personally, having children was the trigger, you know, and again, it was not about the money because we didn't have any money.

It's about, okay, both of us aren't around, who's going to look after these children, you know, so having guardians noted down again for the rest of the family that this is what they'd like to happen.

I'm not sure that's always.

That's.

It is.

It's the first holiday you take away from the kids, isn't it?

You're driving a car, you're getting on a plane.

That's it.

And that.

And usually the Mrs. Because they, you know, worry more than us men.

Sexist, but maybe, maybe generalists, but they're like, what happens if we both die?

And then you're both like, oh, we don't really have a plan for this at all.

But something, something may trigger someone to think about it.

But part of the conversation we're having today is you need to think about it full stop.

You, you might just drift along and nothing's really triggering you, you know?

Yeah, and they're pretty, you know, life changes, your objectives will change, family situation will change.

You know, do it.

Set it up and review it, you know, rules can be updated pretty, pretty easily as, as life changes but, but you know, don't forget that you have it there and make sure they are updated.

Take regular check ins and I think.

A lot of people put it off because they think it's one of those things that's really complicated and actually they don't need to be that complicated.

If you don't have a complex estate they can be fairly simple and it is just a really good kind of touching point I would say it's also a good point to speak with your family about what is happening.

Some people keep so quiet but actually a big thing that you can do for your family is talk to them about what you own, where things are, where your will is, where your lasting powers of attorney are, what's in place just so that your kids know, for example.

Otherwise a big part of it can often be oh gosh, someone has passed away, we have no idea what they owned, where everything.

Well, let's do these in order then let's go into each one because I think you're making a very good final point.

You can do all this but if you don't tell anyone that you locked it up in some safe somewhere they don't know.

So final step is always or you know, the constant step but to let people know.

So let's just start with a will.

Let's say, okay, I want to get a will.

And there's an interesting interaction that I've seen between both your two jobs because a will makes you sit down and go, okay, what am I going to do?

What do I do with the business?

What do I do with this?

You have various, Angie, you have various things in your toolkit that can help with some of these things to say, okay, well let's take an insurance on that and let's talk about some of that.

But let's just do the first basic question.

I'm standing in zero.

I need to get a will.

Where do I go?

Do I ask ChatGPT?

Do I get a free one from charities?

Where do I do I solicitor.

I'm worried that's going to be expensive or what.

It depends on how complicated your will.

Needs, what makes things complicated.

So if you think so, things like if you have children from a prior relationship or you are a blended family, that probably makes things a bit more complicated and you want to probably make sure that all people are provided for.

I would say go to a solicitor.

If you own a business, I would say you probably have a, maybe you have a shareholders agreement in place.

There might already be things in place for what happens to your shares.

I would speak with a solicitor, but if, if your status doesn't have those.

Types of things, just you, your partner, you have a.

You're employed, if you're not married, does that make it complicated?

No, not really.

Okay, so.

So if you've got a partner, some kids, you've got a job.

Yep.

I would say maybe you've got some stocks and shares or something.

Little bits, but nothing much, nothing too complicated.

I would suggest that you can have a will prepared through one of the will providers online, such as Farewell, for example.

They're an online provider and they provide a good service and it's inexpensive and it will be done quickly.

If it is more complicated and you want to have a discussion around things like inheritance tax planning, having trust set up for future generations, asset protection, that type of thing, then I do really recommend speaking to a solicitor.

There are far too many cowboys who will suggest things like, oh, put all of your assets into a trust now.

Well, let's just take that in steps.

Yeah.

One of the funny things that happens when you do a will is you will realize that you might need some financial advice over what you're doing in terms of using, you know, Andrew's toolkit is insurance products in case you're in a business, whatever.

But the other bit that happens with people think they need a will.

Often they need tax advice to start with.

Yes.

To just to map out what have we got here?

And we did an earlier episode, you should check out on trusts where I think the main point you want to take from that we were trying to sort of make it demystify the world of trusts and say, hey, listen, trusts aren't about tax avoidance.

They really aren't.

They're basically useless for that.

In fact, there are a couple of ways that they can help.

But a lot of time they're going to make life worth.

What they're good for is when you're trying to do something like a grandparent is trying to get money to a grandchild or certain action.

So trust can be useful and that can come out of a conversation, but anytime you start mentioning these things, they are complicated.

You need some tax planning.

So do you.

You start with a solicitor, but you need a solicitor who understands tax or you has a team with tax in it.

I think most private client solicitors would be able to help with inheritance tax planning.

Okay.

So as long as they are step.

Qualified, for example, that's the qualification.

Because the other thing I think we need to start talking about is these qualifications.

I'm going to go.

I'm realizing that there's very little understanding in the public about what qualifications are worth having.

So step goes after your name.

Is it initials usually tep.

So it means you're a trust and estate practitioner after your name.

That means you're step qualified.

And those are like the premier exams, aren't they tough exams pretty much for.

Yes, I would say for private client.

And the other one to always look out for tax is CTA Chartered Tax Advisor.

That's the top tax qualification in the country.

So either of those they might have specialised in the wrong thing.

What you know with TUP is they've specialized in the right.

Yes.

CTA.

You can have CTAs in VAT, you can have CTAs in corporate tax.

But you also.

It gives you some understanding that this person is clearly a tax professional and governed under an institute and has all those duties of care to not do things they don't understand.

But what you go, you find a decent private client solicitor.

If your affairs are complex or not.

Simple or if you've got a large estate.

So if your estate is over, say the nil rate band and possibly so say if you've got assets worth More than £500,000, I would probably be getting advice.

And could they.

If they hadn't even done that or they just as a first step, could you sit and just write on a piece of paper and put it in a drawer and sign it.

Does that have legal weight?

If you just say, hey, listen, my last will and testament is this, that and the other, and sign it.

I mean ideally it could be brought into court.

Ideally you want it to at least be witnessed by two witnesses.

So signed a witness by two witnesses.

Okay.

And if you heard people.

So you made a good recommendation there for a decent business that's cost effective.

You heard people using the chat GBT or anything yet.

Is that the.

Not yet, but it wouldn't surprise me.

But I would just be quite careful.

Services like Farewell, I think they cost a couple of hundred pounds.

Really good.

It's not very much.

So I would just be very careful of using.

Go to someone who knows what they're doing.

I would do.

Yeah.

I think it's the advice point though, isn't it?

I think if.

Well, personally, you know, I could go online and fill out a will and it might prompt me through a decision tree.

You know, have you thought about this or that?

But really the benefit of going to a suitably qualified solicitor is they prompt you with questions.

Have you thought about X?

Have you thought about Y?

That's where the value comes into play as well as actually getting the thing done.

So go to a decent professional and they can help you put the will together.

Your initial conversations may lead to more questions than answers, I think is what we're saying.

If your affairs aren't simple, you may sit down and you're, you're going to start asking questions and they're going to say things like, well, I want to leave the business to John, whatever.

And then either of you might say, wow, I guess, isn't it?

I mean, they give an example that it'd be good.

Andrew, Just to give some context, because that's what I'm thinking of the top of my head.

When does a financial advisor get involved in a will?

Is it really those sorts of things, trying to put in mechanisms in place to pass on business assets or.

Yeah, I mean, we, okay, we can start talking about, about business assets.

I mean, as Jem said, you know, you may have a shareholders agreement that sets out what happens if a shareholder dies.

That can sometimes be contradictory to what you actually want to happen.

It could be, okay, I'm in, I'm in business with, with another person.

If I die, they get my shares of my business.

Actually, I want my family to benefit from the value of my business.

So what mechanism is there in place for the surviving shareholder to buy out my family effectively?

Will they have the money at the right time, tax efficiently and do all the agreements set that out?

So things like a life COVID policy on a share in the name of a shareholder can provide the right money to the right person at the right time so that the family gets paid out effectively.

Tax efficiently because otherwise you could have the surviving shareholder now in business with the family of the deceased.

I'm sure that's maybe not what either party wants.

Normally somebody wants an exit.

So if there's a life policy or something in the background that's providing funds to meet those goals, that's a good starting point.

Because people haven't thought about death.

Again, I think it's very common in business.

They haven't really thought about, well, what happens to you.

Yeah, and what you're, what you're doing there is, you're, you're.

If you just say, oh, well, they're going to buy it off you.

Well, are they?

When?

How?

And, and you're going through grief.

I mean, you've got someone who've lost their partner.

I mean, that's, that's the Significant bit that we're also not accounting for.

We're not accounting for the fact that this isn't going to be me together with my partner making rational decisions over a year.

This is like, I've lost my partner, I've got no one to talk to.

I'm on my own.

It says that there's these shares.

Apparently they're worth some money.

The business partner, partner.

I never really got on with them very well actually now, now it comes to the truth of it.

They don't, they don't want to pay me.

They're saying it's not worth it, a thing.

So all of that, if that is talked about, not when it happened, if you talk about that years in advance, your partner who's in business with the person can say, hey, listen, I have shareholders agreement, I need to change it.

And I'm going to put a, I'm going to pay a life insurance policy so that if I die, it will buy the shares off you at a fair market value that will be calculated by this person or based on this metric.

Yeah, exactly.

And it's all written down and you can review it regularly.

And if you set up the policies in the right way, the money flows really tax efficiently.

So definitely that's an area.

It could be tax efficient as well too.

Can it?

What, buying the shares off the.

Off them because they're dead, is it?

Or.

Yeah, so normally they're set up under, under trust arrangements.

So that saves some, some taxes.

But you know, key to that is the shareholders agreement that sets out, okay, this happens then this is what we'd like to happen on both sides of the business.

And you can extend that.

We talked about business.

We can extend it to family members as well.

It's often having those conversations.

Can you give me an example of that?

Well, it's like often we have that conversation with clients.

Okay, what happens if, what happens if you're not around often?

You could have a couple, maybe both are bringing income into family.

What happens if you're not around?

Who's going to look after the children?

Is there going to be enough money to, okay, you're going to maybe have a nanny to help you out or, you know, who's going to pay for that?

Because it's not just you lose one income earner.

If you've got kids, the other person has to quit their job basically to look after the kids.

Often, yeah.

Or very close to.

Exactly, yeah.

So, you know, again, that's a good trigger point, you know, for reviewing protection planning, whether it's Life cover, income protection, critical illness, those kind of things.

It's those.

What happens if.

Questions again.

Speak to an advisor, they can help you calculate.

Okay.

What's the right amount of COVID for you based on what your debts are, what your mortgage is, what your income level is, the age of your children.

If we need to pay for childcare, that could be expensive.

Let's cash flow this.

Let's make sure we've got enough money that goes to the right person.

Tax efficiently and often life COVID policies or similar, they're really good cost effective vehicle to help solve some of those problems.

That's great.

So I think if you have simple affairs as Gemma described, you could go to this company.

Farewell was here.

If they are more complicated, then I think you need to make a material investment rather than going to Lanzarote for Valentine's.

You know, think about it.

Couldn't be better money spent really.

You know, maybe investing, dare I say it, and getting a decent solicitor and working through these things is not going to happen overnight.

It's a process.

You'll need, you'll need input for financial advice.

You'll need input from tax people.

We're happy to help you, but there's lots of people out there who can help you with that, you know, make sure you've got to go somewhere different.

Then let's.

Then let's ask some other baits.

So that would get me in a place with a will.

If my affairs are more complicated or my decisions, then I would have a little bit of tax planning.

I may take out an insurance product, but suddenly I'm in a place where I've thought through these outcomes and I've been in those meetings.

They're quite complicated because, well, what if you both die?

What if one of you dies?

What if this one dies?

What happens?

You know, but think through those things, uncomfortable though they may be.

Okay, so let's say we've sorted out a will.

Okay, Tick.

Let's talk about the other thing that you really need to do is if you get sick or there's a problem, which happens so often now, there's types of power of attorney.

Talk to me about powers of attorney.

Sure.

So there are two types of lasting powers of attorney in the uk.

So one is for health care and the other is financial, effectively.

So many people think that if anything happens to them, their spouse or their next of kin will automatically be able to make decisions on their behalf, be able to sign things on their behalf, and they actually can't.

So if anything happens to you, say if you lose mental capacity and you need to sell your property to pay for health care or care home fees or anything like that, because you've lost mental capacity, you can no longer sell your property.

But if you have a financial lasting power of attorney in place, someone can do that on your behalf.

A lot of people worry and sorry.

And with the health care one, your person, who is your attorney on your health care lasting power of attorney, they can make decisions like what type of care you're going to have, where you're going to live, those types of things.

And they're just so, so, so important.

No one ever thinks they're going to lose capacity until it happens.

And if you don't, then have it in place, your family has to go to the court of protection.

It costs of money.

It takes so much time.

When you're already going through months, I assume.

Yes.

When you're already going through a really emotionally difficult time.

And maybe also they, they, they had most access to most of the funds.

You can't access money.

Exactly.

You can't access anything.

Can't access anything.

No.

So those people who want to look after you and want to take care of you, their hands are sort of tied if they can't operate your bank accounts on your behalf.

Now, a lot of people find this one a difficult one because they find difficult relinquishing control to somebody else.

But there are such strict controls over these, they have to act in your best interests.

You can put more than one attorney in place, you can put two attorneys in place.

So you kind of have that checks and balance there, really.

So that's an issue is that people actually, it's a sort of fear that you're handing over control, but you've got to have lost.

It depends with the health one, you have to have lost capacity for anyone else to make a decision.

But with the financial one, you have the choice.

They can either make the decisions whilst you've got capacity, but only with your consent, or they can then make those decisions if you have a loose capacity.

Now, I usually recommend choosing it so that they can sign on your behalf even whilst you've got capacity, but with your consent.

Because most people that lose capacity will initially start off going through this phase of fluctuating capacity, where sometimes they are okay and lucid and sometimes they're not.

Yeah, the sort of dementia case.

And it's interesting how you said that, because I can imagine someone thinking, thinking, well, if I've got capacity, I'll do it myself.

But that's the point.

It's like just because sometimes you're lucid, you're just allowing someone to deal with your affairs.

Yeah.

Because you've said, look, you just get on with it.

I can't even get my head around it these days.

Well and for your business owner listeners, you know, often that could be because you're not in the country, you can't deal with the bank whatever because you're away on business.

I've appointed an attorney.

Yeah, so you should.

I would assume all business owners should have an LPA or think about.

Right.

Who can deal with my stuff stuff if I'm abroad or something.

And hence your LPA might not be with your partner, might be with someone else.

Is that very unusual?

So with the finite, with the financial one you can, if you, if you're in a business you can have two separate ones.

So you can have one that covers your business assets and one that covers your personal assets.

Great.

So you can partner.

So you do it between your business partners and say let's do LPAs.

Yep.

I can't do it without your consent.

What do they do?

Give a one off consent or they have to consent every time.

So it's for the specific decision.

So say if your business partner you've agreed between between you that you're going to sell some shares for example and you're away in another country and you can't sign and it has to be in Wessing for some reason you can send an email to your attorney and they can then sign on your behalf because you've given them consent.

Okay.

And LPAs, you do them online, don't you?

You can Google it, it's a government website.

Yes, it's all done online.

You have to create an account and then they're all done online.

They're really not the too difficult to do.

They are quite long.

The worst thing about them is how many places you have to sign and you have to sign in the correct order.

But they're really not too difficult and people could do them on their own or a professional can help as well.

Why are they long?

Surely it's my name, address, date of birth, what else do they need from me?

It's your name, address, date of birth, names, address, date of birth for all of the attorney's preferences, instructions, whether someone can approve life sustaining treatment or not.

There's a few different questions.

The forms themselves themselves are really not too difficult.

You go saying yes, no and filling in some answers but it is just.

Assigning bit and you have to go through it twice, once for health Once for financial.

You can do it.

Yes.

You.

Okay.

Twice.

Yeah.

Okay.

So then I would have a lasting power of attorney.

Your recommendation would be what?

Do a business one.

If you've got a business, if you.

Want your attorney to be a different person.

So say yeah.

Then I would say have a different one for your business finances, one for your personal finances and one for health.

And you've just got to pick the person in your life you trust with exactions, turning off life support machines or whatever it is, chopping off legs, I don't know.

And then have replacements as well in place.

Oh, and you have replacements because they could pass.

Exactly.

Or they could lose capacity.

So.

So you'll find a lot of these questions that you start thinking about, they're very sort of practical.

I mean, I think it's like when we talk about trust, people say, oh, I can have a trust, but it's like, well, who are the trustees?

It's always a question, who is the power of attorney?

Who are the people that are going to actually be there?

Do you want to add to that?

You're good.

Yeah.

I mean, trustees are important and quite a responsibility on the trustees.

If you talk about life COVID policies, you could go and buy a simple life COVID policy online.

But if you take advice, your advisor will normally recommend that, that policies put in some form of trust for tax efficiency reasons, but also speed of getting the money to the right person at the right time.

But a trustee is effectively the person that will take the decisions on controlling that money and ensuring it's paid to the right person.

Let's talk about life insurance and you've just made a really important point there.

So let's make sure it's really clear.

Just on a basic level, a trust is effectively where you.

I don't know, why would you.

What would you.

The simplest way you would try and describe a trust and why the life insurance in trust, I mean, the impact's massive.

If your life insurance is in trust, there is no tax.

So you can get a million pound policy and it will come out and your grieving partner, or whoever it is will get a million pounds, not a million pounds less tax.

Well, exactly.

So a trust effectively, you know, is removing that money from you, from the value of your estate.

You know, without the trust, that million pounds belongs to your estate.

But life insurance, I normally pay a monthly amount, don't I, depending on how big a cover I want to go.

So that's not in my estate.

This is money that comes out of nowhere if I die.

If you don't specify that it's to be held in trust.

Then when it gets paid out, it gets paid into your estate.

Right.

And so it increases your estate.

So it would then be subject to inheritance tax, right?

That's right, yeah.

So you want it held in trust?

Sorry, no, no, no.

It's a really important point because you go online and do these things, you won't like what?

Is there any reason you wouldn't have it?

Well, so some people will have protection or life cover to pay to pay a debt on, on their death.

So I don't know, a mortgage or a large debt that you might have, you could have a life policy that is used to pay down that debt so that clears it within your estate.

So often we see we take on new clients with no protection.

The first building block in terms of life cover and protection planning is well, let's look at the debts that you have and often the mortgage is the big one.

So let's ensure that.

Ensure with an E that that liability is in short with an I so that you have a policy that pays down that mortgage on your death.

The next building block then is okay, well let's look at what else is going on in your life.

You know, you children, you're a high income earner, you can insure against that loss as well.

So this is where trusts may be useful to help with tax efficiency.

Let's zoom back a little bit because the thing, as you well know, Andrew, the one thing I think people can sort out in a matter of days is life insurance.

And just using, you know, my dear sister who we had another partner die, Hugh Williams, after he died, my sister was like, he didn't have any life insurance, I don't think.

And she was like, right, I'm gonna sort this out.

So sis went and bought life insurance fairly quickly and she got as much as she could was her view on the matter.

Within months she was diagnosed, she started to become unwell and then maybe it was as long as nine months later or something, but it wasn't that much later she got diagnosed with pancreatic cancer.

At that point you get diagnosed, you've still got time to write.

A week will, you know, you've still got time but there's no insurer who's going to touch you now obviously.

But because she had the life insurance in place, it brought tremendous comfort to her partner that and to her and I think try not to get emotional but you know, I remember talking to her about it and you know, for her to know that her Family was going to be provided for, that she hasn't just left her partner on the lurch, you know, that there was going to be a bunch of money coming in.

And the reason I personally, and, you know, some people do other things for, I. I would say to a client or friend when I meet them, I'm like, have you got life insurance?

Especially once they've got kids and they're like, no, I haven't.

And I'm like, just, just please go and get that tomorrow.

You know, that's my view.

And it's cheap.

It's cheap, you know.

Yeah.

Give us some examples.

Thankfully, the risks are pretty low.

Yeah, you know, this is.

We're talking about disaster scenarios here.

It does.

Does happen, but the risks are low and that's reflected in, in the premiums.

So.

So it's, it's very inexpensive planning to put in place roughly.

Like if you're in your 30s and you're healthy, you don't smoke, you might pay 100 pound a month.

Might give you a million pounds or something.

Yeah, that's reasonable.

Yeah, that's.

Yeah, that's, that's a.

You know, it, like you said, it depends on health factors etc, but yeah, you're in the right kind of area.

And you think to yourself, 100 pound a month.

100 pound a month, that's, you know, that's a lot.

That's as much as I pay on electricity and it's like, well, I might not ever get paid.

Yeah, that's all irrelevant because either it's good money wasted or amazingly, you just save the day.

I hope it never pays out.

Exactly, exactly.

That's the good news.

That's the like.

Yes, it didn't pay out.

Exactly.

Yeah, that's right.

So.

So yeah, either you can buy a policy privately or lots of employers will have some form of life cover or death in service as part of their employee benefits package.

You know, you may.

We're going to talk net.

We're going to talk next month more about how to look after your staff, but.

Yeah, exactly.

Bit of luck.

You might haven't worked, but I think we've all seen it.

If someone's died, is there any money anywhere?

Did the firm have a life?

No, we didn't.

Did they take out the life insurance?

I mean, we had that when it's like, well, he was talking about it, we had some meetings and he didn't sort it out.

And it's like devastating, like, oh, great.

It's just something that you can, you know, when you've Lost, say an employee, an important person within your business, at least it's something you can give to their family and say, yes, we did have some cover in place for them.

Them.

I highly recommend it as a business and we'll talk more about it next month.

But again, it's not an expensive thing.

Someone's worked for you for 10 years, as you say, it's like, I'm really sorry.

Well, it's a bit better if you're like, well, here's four times his wages, you know.

But better than that, look after yourself.

And as you're saying that they're affordable, you can choose how much, you know, even if you can only afford to get a hundred thousand pounds, it's £100,000.

You know what I mean?

Yes, exactly.

Yeah, It's a lot.

Yeah.

And you know, we've talked a lot about life cover and as I said, the premiums are pretty inexpensive because the risks are thankfully pretty low.

But what is it more at risk is you becoming sick or ill and you maybe possibly can't do your job anymore or certainly for an extended period of time.

So a good advisor will also then talk to you about things like income protection or critical illness insurance to ensure that the bills are still being paid at the end of each month should, should something like that happen.

It's much more expensive though, isn't it, when you look at it, because you can get quite, you can say, oh, I love a million, you know, you can say, oh, I want 500, 000 pound.

That's 50 pound a month.

Okay, fine, I'll pay.

Once you start talking about life cover, the quotes are going to be much higher and they're difficult decisions, you know, is that fair or.

For critical illness?

Yes.

Yeah.

And it's because that's, sadly, it's more likely to happen.

That's just a factor of the risks.

If you look at the chances of something happening to you during your working life, whether it's a critical illness or whether it's being unable to work for three months or more, I don't know the exact stats, but it's very high, much higher than dying.

And that's reflected in the premiums that you have.

My old man, he's full of wisdom and quite, you know, straightforward talking thoughts at time, you know, that is more expensive.

And his view is often if you're going to get critically ill, you will die within a reasonable period of time.

So at a minimum, if you've got life insurance, like, what I'm trying to say is, I I find when I look at the estimates of critical illness and stuff, it can go from oh it's 100 pound a month to it, 600 pound a month.

You go oh blimey, I'm not going to do it, this is too much, I can't afford it, I won't bother.

I mean at a base make sure you get something in place as life insurance because you could be critically ill for two, three years and yes, you're not going to need any cover there but then you will die likely and then you get the life insurance still, don't you?

Well exactly, I think you know, if you're going to do it properly you look at a, what budget you have for a protection policy and then you, with modern insurance policies you can blend life cover, critical illness, income protection within the one policy.

So you may say okay, I'll take 300 grands worth of life cover to pay down my mortgage if I'm not around.

That's pretty cheap, I've got some savings put aside but if I can't work for longer than six months we're really going to struggle.

So let's build in some income protection that might pay me a couple of grand a month or something.

So income, so there's three types, there's death, illness and income protection.

Are they, what's the difference between illness and income protection?

So critical illness insurance pays out typically a lump sum sum if you're diagnosed with one of a range of illnesses.

So the big ones, yeah, you know, cancer, heart attack, stroke are the big kind of three claims.

So that pays a lump sum.

Income protection is where you can't do your job because you've had an accident or you're sick, you can't do your job for a long period of time.

So typically, and the big claims in those types of policies are kind of musculoskeletal type claims, you know, car accident, I've had a bad back, I can't sit at my desk to perform my job anymore.

I know of someone who's had it for 30 years.

Critical she said chronic fatigue syndrome, interestingly which, you know, and I mean yeah, it goes on for ages.

Well so you know, hasn't passed away thankfully but.

So life cover would be no good.

But they may have really struggled with their finances because them and can't do their job.

Yeah, lack of income, you know, who's going to pay the bills at the end of each month.

So it's those awkward conversations you've got to have as a family and then you look at the protection.

And okay, you might not be able to afford to cover every risk that's out there.

It's life.

But lest you can take an educated view on, okay, well, we've got our baseline covered here and you know, we've got plans in place because everything's also.

About looking at a window, isn't it?

So you're, you're sitting there saying, say you're 40 years old and you're thinking, right, I should do this.

You will get life insurance that will cover a period of time to say, well, if you die between now and you're 60, we'll give you this money, isn't it?

But then meanwhile, you've got a plan for hopefully you're still here.

And I need some money at the end of that rainbow.

But it makes sense in my head because I've seen some really heartbreaking ones of friends of like or friends of friends.

Someone, someone passes and then everyone tries to raise some money for the family and they do on GoFundMe and everything.

And maybe they end up with seven grand and everyone's done a big effort.

I saw one of these recently and I just sit there thinking, oh, I just wish this person had bought life insurance, because that's great, they've got seven grand.

But seven grand ain't gonna touch the sides over life, is it?

Whereas half a million, a million pounds, these things can life, you know, enough money that you can live for a.

Decade, you know, you know those building blocks I talked about, you know, I'll touch on now, you know, we, we will meet with a client.

You know, one of the first questions, okay, do you have an emergency fund put aside?

Do you have some savings in a bank account somewhere that you can get your hands on should you have an emergency, you know, the boiler breaks or something, or the car breaks down, so you have an emergency fund, you know, three, six months income as a, as a minimum.

Then we talk about protection.

Okay, you've got these debts, this is your family situation.

What happens if, like I talked about earlier, so we've talked about the protection side of things now and that's really key for younger people, you know, 20s, 30s year olds who are starting to accumulate wealth, maybe have a, starting a family, et cetera, but maybe haven't got as much money behind them.

And then as you touched on, okay, well, let's start planning for the longer term, you know, you know, okay, will we have enough money to live off later on in life, retirement fund, investments, etc.

So that when we're Easing back on work.

We've got a fund.

So this is a typical kind of financial planning process.

You kind of go through this order, build things efficiently, tax efficiently, working with solicitors and accountants.

So, yeah, yeah, it's.

That's what triggers the conversation, isn't it?

I think, I feel like it's like, if you just want to start a conversation, fine, start with a will and start planning it out.

I mean, I would say just go and get life insurance.

Like.

Like, go get it this week, you know, go and get some.

Just get, get, get in place.

Even if the policy you're going to update or do something different in time, but get some life cover.

And then no matter what happens, if Monday you get a diagnosis, you're good.

You know, you've got that comfort in your heart that you're like, okay, if I die tonight, forget, you know, people literally get hit by bus, buses, people.

You know, we've all got terrible stories of like, oh, and they're gone, you know, just like that.

So, I mean, the person that we were just talking about earlier, I mean, they were riding their bike, they were happy, and they just, boom, you know, brain hemorrhage, gone, you know, so get life insurance, then start the conversation.

A will, if it's complicated, get a professional help and they will guide you.

And these questions will all come up.

If you're thinking, well, I can't think it all through.

Well, that's the job of a professional.

By working through it methodically, you.

You're, you're, you know, professional is going to say, well, what.

What do you want to do with that son or that child or what's going to happen?

And if that happens and you'll be like, oh, whoa.

Yeah, I mean, I don't know.

You know, what if you both die?

Who's going to look after the kids?

Oh, Christ, we've never talked about it.

What do you think, honey?

And it's like, oh, well, you know, I've had to do that recently.

It's like.

And I learned things, you know, you learn things about who your wife really trusts.

Do you know what I mean?

I would have guessed wrong.

I would have like, who's gonna look after your kids?

I'm like, you like, you like that one, don't you?

No, I don't want to do.

I like that one.

And I'm like, I always thought you like that one.

Yeah, it's like, oh, you know.

So you don't really know.

Do you have those conversations?

And I, I think, yeah.

I just think it's such.

That is how you love your family, you know, to.

To.

We.

We spend so long in material goods, don't we?

Flowers, whatever, you know, whatever.

I mean, you know, what, what, what a thing to do.

Yeah.

And if I can add to that, it is when you kind of start having those conversations and, and the profession, if you have those conversations with professionals, they will start asking these questions and it might.

Thought about.

And you might think it's overly com.

Really complicated.

But actually we've probably had these conversations and thought about different options for so many of hundreds of different people, different family situations, different scenarios that we can also suggest different options to each person.

And then you might think, oh, I'd never thought about that.

But actually that works really well because yes, this child is going to need something entirely different to this child.

So.

Yeah, you know, and we can come up with all these different.

Different solutions for each different family.

And there's all sorts of things you can put in your will, isn't it?

Letters you can leave.

You know, you can leave.

You don't even need to put things in your.

So wills.

I should.

I should say will ultimately become a public document.

Oh, will it?

Eventually.

So you don't know that.

Yeah.

So there's a public register.

You can look up anyone's will.

You can look up anyone's.

Well, if they.

If they get a grant of probate.

So if a grant of probate.

After they're dead.

After they're dead, yeah.

So after they're dead, if they need a grant of probate, you can get a copy of the grant of probate which will have a copy of the will attached.

Let's demystify this because I have to say, I get lost that word probate.

I'm sorry, it sounds like a doctor's procedure or something.

So someone dies tomorrow.

Well, okay, so the other thing you have to appoint.

You have to appoint an executor in your will.

Very beginning.

Yeah.

So let's.

Let's split it out because there's two different processes that happen.

Whether you have a will or whether you don't have a will.

Okay, let's take it.

If you do have a will, you will have an executor appointed in your will.

That is the person who actually deals with your estate.

When you pass away, who should you.

Choose as your execution?

Often people will choose their spouse, but then on the death of the second, you need to have someone else.

So you just need to have someone who you trust.

My dad says don't choose a lawyer.

He Says that he wouldn't recommend it.

He says he's seen very nasty situations over the year where the lawyers are.

Yeah, I mean, I would choose a lawyer as almost a last case scenario.

And if you really trust and you've got a really long standing relationship.

I'm an executive, some of my clients, but.

But it's not my.

I'd have you, my executor, actually.

But I know what an amazing person you are.

But it's not my first recommendation to just have a solicitor.

I would recommend have someone, a person who knows your affairs, knows your family and who you trust implicitly, because that person can always instruct a solicitor to deal with everything.

And at least then that person is in control of.

If.

If that solicitor's fees are becoming outrageous, they can instruct somebody else to act instead.

And also the other thing that I should mention is the beneficiaries can also vary a will within two years after a person's death.

So if it makes sense to leave more to charity, say for instance, to benefit from a lower inheritance tax rate, the beneficiaries can choose to do that themselves.

This is a massive point you're raising that people don't realise a will can be changed if the beneficiaries all agree to change it.

They could say, I don't want anything.

You have it all.

Yeah, it doesn't even need to be all of the beneficiaries.

Oh, really?

So say if.

And this works really, really well sometimes.

So I was recently speaking with some people and they actually don't want the inheritance from their parents because their estate is already quite large.

They would rather that it passes straight to their children.

And so they're worried about having those conversations with their elderly parents.

And I said, don't worry about it.

If you don't want your inheritance, you can change that within two years and pass it straight to your children.

Oh, very good.

So.

So let's get back to the plot.

So we've got two versions.

So.

So if you have got a will in that you will assign an executor who's responsible for dealing with your estate, your estate for everyone, in normal language, is just the assets you have and the liabilities you have after you die.

You know, it may sound a very grand word, but it may be a house and a few debts and a credit card and then take me from there.

So those executors are responsible for paying any inheritance tax if there is anything due and they will be responsible for applying for what's known as a grant.

Of probate.

And that is effectively a certificate that confirms that they are the executors, that they have paid the inheritance tax, and that they are entitled to deal with your estate.

So you pay the tax first.

Give me just a sense of this process because I just find it mind boggling.

It depends on what the assets are.

But as a rule of thumb, you roughly usually have to pay the inheritance tax if there is any due.

So where do you go?

Someone's died.

You go see an accountant or someone and say, we think these are the assets.

Usually would go to a lawyer.

Lawyer.

Yeah, usually you would go to a lawyer, say these are the assets, these are the liabilities.

The lawyer, if you want to instruct someone, will prepare the inheritance tax forms.

If inheritance tax is due.

Yeah, because if it's lower than 375,000 or up to a million, it could be.

If there were two people who died who left stuff to them, then they might.

You might not need inheritance tax forms, in which case we would just prepare a probate application.

Right.

Okay.

The taxman comes first.

I always assume he had to get probate to deal with the tax.

No, you have to pay the tax, or at least you can pay inheritance tax by installments if the main assets are properties and shares.

I thought you couldn't get access to the assets until you could prove you had a grant of probate, that you're the right people.

So interestingly, most banks will allow access to pay inheritance tax.

Oh, okay.

But there are different ways that you can pay the.

So you've literally got to contact the bank.

Are the banks quite good at this?

You go Lloyd's bank.

So banks will often release the funds to pay inheritance tax.

Otherwise sometimes you will have life insurance in place that could cover the inheritance tax.

Or sometimes the executives need to get a loan to pay the inheritance tax.

That's quite common, I'd imagine.

A property is the vast majority of the estate.

You can't just sell a property.

You can't sell a property without a grant of probate.

Exactly.

So how does.

How do the exact families raise enough money to pay the tax?

So if it's a property, you can elect to pay the inheritance tax over installments over 10 years.

So you would only need to pay 10% of the inheritance tax in order to get your grant of probate.

Yeah.

Let's assume you've got zip and someone's died and they've got this wealthy, they've got this valuable property.

You can't get probate till you pay the tax.

I mean, sorry, Mr. Tax man, you really do get in there.

I would have thought the logical thing is let's all get probate and then let's pay the tax man.

I don't understand why it's that way around.

And so he wants his money, I guess.

Yeah.

And.

And you're also paying interest on that inheritance tax if it's not paid within six months after date of death as well.

Wow, that's a mind boggle.

Because I've seen people go into this, they're like, I'm the executor.

They've just told me I have no information.

So actually the first thing they need to do is go find a private client lawyer, step lawyer, say.

Well, the first of all, they've got to work out what they've got.

Well, that's.

Yeah, I was just about to chime in with that.

And mean, you need a really, a schedule as to what affairs you've got in place.

I mean, you know, think of the apps on your phone.

You might have a trading app or a bit of crypto or something.

Who knows about that?

You know, have it written down somewhere if you can or have those conversations with, with your other half or family.

Just so there's a schedule of.

Okay, these are my accounts, this is my pensions.

I've worked here, there and there.

Just have it written down to go into.

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

They will need face id these apps, most of them.

No, I mean they really do.

But you'll need the code or you need to get into a phone, you'll.

Need a code to get in a phone.

And then second, you'll need to know the authenticator codes.

Yeah.

How do you manage this?

Because obviously I'm actually a big one for privacy, having been in an ex relationship who did go through my phone regularly.

It's not, it's not something I'm cool with.

You know, she didn't really find anything, but she often didn't like some of the things I'd message someone or something.

But you know, I think privacy is something everyone kind of deserves.

So how do you buy balance that.

That you need access to.

To the phone.

But even just having a record of, okay, I hold some crypto assets with this company, you know, have it written down.

It's with that provider.

Or I've got an isa, of course.

Because they can contact them old school if it comes to it.

Contact the provider.

You know, I've lost a loved one.

I think they had an account with you.

Could you, could you check it out for me?

At least it's.

Give them a steer.

So that's.

That's a difficult enough conversation to have with your other behalf.

You know, you could put it in your will, though, with your solicitor, couldn't you?

It's so difficult.

So back in the day, if you were an executor, you would go around to someone's house and you would find all of the stacks and stacks of paper you still often do.

You'll find stacks and stacks of paper.

You go through them.

Yeah.

You'll find the bank accounts, you'll find this and that, you'll find a bit about everything and then you'll get in touch with all of the asset providers and say, you know, what do you need from me in order to release the funds or to transfer the shares to me, etc.

Etc.

Now, because almost everything is online, it becomes so much more difficult to know what that person had.

And so what we do when we issue a will is we have a pack that we send out to clients.

I think we should make it publicly available because it just sets out.

You can just fill it in at work.

We'll make it.

Let's do that.

Let's make it publicly available when we.

We're releasing a newsletter which will, you know, talk about this podcast.

Let's put it there.

Yeah.

And it just sets out.

We'll put it on the website.

You can fill it in and just set it out.

These are my bank accounts, this is my financial advisor, this is my solicitor.

These the stocks and shares that I own, etc, etc.

So that someone knows who to contact when, whenever the worst does happen.

Yeah.

And you could get that.

You could hold that with someone you trust or anything you could do.

I'd say hold it, keep.

Keep a copy with your original will, but you can update it.

It's like the original will.

You could do something simple like you give the password to the home computer you use.

That's probably got a lot of stuff on it as well as your mobile, worst case.

Yeah.

But they're very difficult problems.

Now, is it better to have like one master document, then you try and put it all in?

I think so.

As long as your executors know where it is.

Yeah.

I've been an executor for quite a few estates and I think.

Yeah.

Have they?

No.

I think the biggest thing that I've learned over the time is just you have to find out people's passwords and then it's tough because people change their passwords so very morbidly.

Like, I see In a TV film, can you go and like, put it in front of their face and they're dead?

I imagine that might happen to people to get in there.

Like the fingerprint thing doesn't work anymore.

Does it not?

I think you need like, blood flow.

Well, I tell you, actually, having.

Again watched.

No, but again, having watched my sister, you know, people don't look great when they die.

You know, she didn't look.

I doubt it would have worked.

She looks so different at the end.

So anyway, I mean, I know this is.

This is.

I mean, none of us are comfortable talking about this stuff, but.

But it's all very well writing a will and then nobody can get in your phone.

Nobody's got the Apple password, no one's got the thing at home.

You don't even know where to start.

You don't have a list.

You know, there might be loads in that.

You must make a fortune, these companies, out of dead people who.

They don't collect their assets.

Yeah, I mean, I suppose in my world, I see it a lot with pension pots.

You know, people to change jobs, move around.

I may have a couple of years with that company.

They've accumulated little pension pots here, there and everywhere.

Again, no paperwork.

Cause it's all online.

So they often don't know what they have in place during their working life, let alone their.

Their partner or their family.

So there's millions and millions of.

I have to say, it's a role professionals can help with.

I mean, I do.

I mean, we're lucky that we do a lot of different things here.

Look after people's businesses and their private lives.

And for me, that, that I, you know, I sometimes say to a client, just tell your partner, Ori Clark.

I mean, it's a weird name anyway, just tell him to come and chat to us, you know, and I think anyone could do that.

If you pick a solicitor, you work with them, you know, make sure you say to your wife, by the way, if anything happens, go to John Smith at Smith Solicitors in Slough High street or wherever, you know, wherever it.

Give them the name, write it on the fridge, whatever.

I mean, that, that professional is not gonna, you know, divulge things.

They have to, you know, all of that stuff that they can't just sort of say, oh, yeah, this is everything.

If you're quite a private person and you just, you know, you'd rather that not all be public and not, not all be known all the time, well, I think that gives you a route, doesn't it?

You've told Someone and not to be be sales pitchy at all.

But I think that's what we have tried to create is sort of this space where because we're lawyers, accountants, financial advisors, hopefully we do know a lot about families and we do know a lot about our clients so that we can help the next generation whenever, you know, they lose a parent, for example.

Yeah, yeah, I agree.

I mean, as you say, I'm not, you know, part of the idea of putting it all together is to give you that holistic thing that also some of this stuff might be related to your business.

You know, if your business, where does your business partner, you could say to your business partner, listen, any problems, go ask Uri Clark.

You know, you say to your wife, go and ask every Clark.

You can do that with other professionals as well.

But make sure people have somewhere they can go and say a name.

And you know, these are professional organizations, they'll be able to find your files and pull it all out and say, right, let's sit and have a conversation.

I think any, anything more digital than that, I think that starts to bother me a little bit.

But yeah, you could do this list.

You could say, look, I've put it all X.

You know, I.

We keep stuff in our safe here, but put it somewhere they're going to find it, you know.

Yeah, just let your executors know where things are.

When I made a will, one of my first things was I told my executors where it is.

You know, otherwise what's the point of doing it?

I actually need to do this, but I haven't done it.

And you've got to think it through because I was suddenly thinking you need the Authenticator app.

You basically need my phone.

Yeah.

Sorry, were you going to say something?

Well, no, I was thinking where do you keep your will, you know, so often?

And it'll keep it at home and you can buy a fireproof box or something pretty, pretty useful that you want.

A fireproof box?

Yeah.

So get, you know, get one of those off, you know, on your favorite online retailer.

But I mean, solicit if you have a solicitor.

You don't have to, but if you have a solicitor who prepares it, they will usually offer to keep it in the, in the safe.

Yeah.

Or at least have a copy of it, you know, and yeah, get a fireproof box, put it somewhere.

Well, you could put the name of your solicitor in there.

I think just, just leave some people some breadcrumb trails, you know, and it's keeping up to date.

I mean, you Know you've got to, you've got to review.

How often do you recommend people review a will?

I say every five years.

Think about it.

And then if there are any life changes.

So when your children turn 18, when you get married or when you get divorced, those types of things.

Okay, now we slightly, we slightly deviated.

So we were saying if you have a will bill then you've got to pay the tax and you have to find a way to do that.

I'm afraid to say once you've worked out, once you've found the stuff to work out how much money there is.

How much.

How do you know about the debts too?

I guess people start writing to you about debt, don't they?

You know, pretty quickly?

Yeah, pretty quick.

Well yeah, look at the bank statement.

Look where the direct debits are going, you know.

Of course, that's a good point.

So we also advertise in the Gazette and well we recommend advertising in the Gazette and local newspapers for any unknown creditors as well.

So executives should be doing those things anymore.

No, but at least you've advertised.

So the executors are then protected if any unknown creditors kind of come out of the woodwork, you don't have to.

Pay them if you've advertised.

You're not liable anymore.

If you've closed the estate.

If you've closed the estate.

Exactly.

So we, we somehow work out what we've got.

Then we've got a file with the Revenue.

It's self assessment folks.

So that means the revenue is not going to write to you, I doubt.

I think, I imagine you've to get hold of them and say this person's died, I. E. Some tax.

We think it's X. I'm sure you can always.

If you get that number slightly wrong and you find out later you can always correct these things.

There'll be understanding I'm sure on that point.

Then you go to probate.

Now just tell me a bit about that.

You apply to a local court like I mean if you have to have a solicitor to do that or you.

Apply to the probate registry.

To the probate registry and then there's a little court case or something you have to turn up.

No, no, nothing like that.

Pieces of paper.

They will check the probate application as well.

As long as you know everything is in order, they will issue the grant of probate to you.

It's just a certificate, isn't it?

Just a certificate, yeah.

You mustn't lose is a paper certificate.

Usually you'll get several official copies so you'll apply for say 10 official copies.

You can send one, you have to send an official one to the bank.

To each asset provider and then they send it back and then they'll send you your assets.

Yeah.

Okay.

If you don't have a will, then you get something else called letters of administration instead.

But wait, let's do without a will.

So just with a will, I've paid the tax man, I've done my probate, I'm in charge, I and get my assets and then I might have to wind things down, close things up, deal with affairs, pay any debts.

Yeah.

Which is the point that another one of my old man's point is get an executor who's not uncomfortable with business or knows a bit about business or a bit about money.

Because there may be stuff if you get someone who's just got no experience of business, that might.

Is that fair?

Yeah.

But even if, even if they don't have much experience, they can always instruct a solicitor to deal with it for them so that your solicitor can do as much or as little as you like.

So they can just help with getting the grant of probate and then you can go off and do everything.

I mean, who knows?

But what are you talking in vague terms between, you know, is it five grand, 50 grand?

It depends on whether there's inheritance tax to pay.

That's kind of where it makes the biggest difference.

But let's say there is inheritance tax to pay and you need full inheritance tax forms and then a full grant of probate.

That's you're probably looking at between 5 and £10,000 for that part.

If you're talking on an hourly basis.

Some solicitors will charge on a percentage of the income estate.

So you're looking at 1 to 2% of the estate.

Okay.

And some people like us will charge on an hourly basis based on the amount of time spent on that estate.

Okay.

And then for dealing with the.

So that's up to getting your grant of probate and then thereafter dealing with the administration of the estate.

That's where it's really difficult to pro.

Because it depends on what's in that estate.

And again these phrases, administration of an estate.

So I've paid the tax based on what there is.

I've done the probate, but now I've got, got this stuff and that's me administering the estate, selling.

So administering the estate is selling the assets or transferring the assets, paying any debts and then distributing everything in line with the will.

Because I can go on for years.

Sometimes this administration, it can take a while.

Yeah.

Which is where you need to watch out that there's not someone who's got their own interests in heart to keep it all going on for a while.

Maybe, maybe, maybe.

I mean, these are slightly outrageous comments, but I don't know, I think it's.

But to me it's keeping it simple as much as you can, isn't it?

Like you said, it's that whole process, the way you've set out.

Sounds pretty horrible to be an executor if it's a complicated estate.

At least if my affairs are written down neat and tidy.

I've tried to consolidate assets as much as possible.

At least I have fewer companies to deal with, fewer assets to sell.

It's makes that whole try and keep it simple.

You can refuse to be an executor, can't you?

Yes, you can refuse.

So you can.

You have a sort of initial right to refuse.

There's two options.

So you can renounce the executorship.

So you're absolutely not going to act, you step down or you can have power reserved and that means I'm not going to act.

But actually if in the future I want to step back in, I can step back in.

So say if you've put down two executors, one of the them is unwell, for example, and really doesn't have the time to be dealing with an estate, they can have power reserved to them, but if in the future they're not happy with how everything's being dealt with, they can step back in.

Yeah, and there's so many horror stories in life of sort of arguments that families have had, particularly when there's quite a lot of money involved about, you know, things haven't necessarily gone right.

But anyway, I don't know if there's anything you can do about that, is that.

That's just a question of picking good executors, is it?

I think that's a case of picking good executives.

And I think the family aspect and not the, the, the difficult thing with family dynamics is often where, say one child gets more than another child or one was expecting more because they've contributed more to, say, the family business or something like that.

So I think the way to try to deal with that is to have those really open conversations within the family during your life.

If you don't have a will, what happens?

So if you don't have a will, the process is not that different, but you get letters of administration instead of a grant of Probate.

Where'd you get these letters from?

So similarly, you still apply to the probate registry.

Okay.

And then you've got this automatic will basically in place to say this.

The intestacy rules apply and you and.

The intestacy can't be overruled by the beneficiaries.

They can in the same way with sort of a deed of variation as you would with a grant of probate.

So if it was supposed to go to the pet parents, under the rules of intestacy, they can vary that so that it goes to someone else instead.

But the kids.

Kids, they can't sign to agree, beneficiary surely would have to be over 18 if the benefit.

Yes.

So if the beneficiaries are over 18, they can vary it.

Right?

You're right, yeah.

Okay, so say if you say if you are not married and you don't have children and your whole estate is going to your parents, your parents might say, no, I would rather it goes to my other child instead.

Okay.

We've talked about life insurance, we've talked about those sorts of things.

But there's anything about saving or those sorts of aspects that we should add?

No.

On Valentine's special, I think, you know, we've covered the key things of, you know, having those conversations with family.

People know what's in place, where those policies and accounts are.

You know, I suppose another aspect of looking after your family, it's thinking about the future.

You know, we've talked about insurance, what happens if.

But also it's, you know, okay, well, you know, let's, let's plan for the future.

Let's ensure that our affairs are managed properly, tax efficiently.

Let's make sure you've got enough money to deal with what you need in retirement.

I've got enough money for later life.

We've started to think about maybe saving for our children's needs.

So whether that's paying for school fees, university fees, that kind of thing, or maybe helping them with a deposit on a property that's very, very popular.

Should we start putting some money aside for the, for the children?

So typically that could be Things like Junior ISAs or savings accounts or maybe just keeping some money.

You if earmarked just in your own name.

But I've earmarked it for the, for the children at some point in the future.

You know, junior ISAs are great for children, but they will have access to that money at 18, so might not be exactly what you want to happen.

So we've got some clients who say, look, I prefer to keep hold of the money.

But I'll earmark it for the children.

Maybe they can have it when they're a little bit older.

So, you know, it's starting to sell.

Save, you know, for your own needs.

But also then thinking about, okay, what, what are my children going to need?

So I think let's wrap up.

I think, is there any time you don't need a will when you're very young or I think if you're happy.

With the intestacy rules.

So look at what the intestacy rules, if they work for you, then that's probably okay.

Yeah.

And I guess if you're young and you don't have a partner, you have no one who depends.

But it's quite rare because often you think, well actually to be honest, I've got a niece I really love and I'd love her to get some money.

Well, you're gonna need to write that down, aren't you?

Or often, you know, even if you are single and don't have children, you probably want things going to either someone of your generation or a lower generation.

You don't usually want things going up a generation because you're just increasing their estate and you'll probably have to pay inheritance.

You know, it doesn't really make sense.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

We're with talking in terms of you need to.

It's a bit like sometimes people say, oh, my parents have got a mortgage on their home, let's pay it.

It's like, well think about that.

Because actually they might die and if they got a mortgage then that's, that's less money to the tax man.

You know, maybe leave.

Leave the mortgage there.

There's some interesting things.

But we'd get into tax planning, which I would strongly recommend investing in.

If you've got a reasonable amount of stuff knocking around, you know, maybe you'll end up spending £10,000 on it.

But it could be very well spent in terms of planning these things out and thinking them through.

This, you know, gets a sensitive area.

People would be like the stacks avoidance or something.

I mean, it's not.

Not it's.

There are set of rules and reliefs and certain things you can do.

Plan it out and think it through.

Let me end on this.

What changes do you think when people, couples finally sit down and talk about this?

I think it kind of just gives you that clarity, you know, it really.

And I think it gives people that peace of mind that if anything does happen to me, at least I know my family are taken care of.

I know what's going to happen If I've got minor children, I know who's going to look after them.

I know that those people that I want to receive something are going to receive something.

And all of my hard work has been for these people.

Well, and it's a release as well.

I've seen it with, with clients.

Thank goodness we've had this conversation.

Now I finally understand really what's important to you.

And hopefully we're aligned.

And if not, let's.

Let's talk about it.

Let's talk it through which sibling you actually trust.

Yeah, but.

Okay, right.

We've got the bases covered now.

We've got that design past a scenario covered and thought about it releases you to think.

Okay, well, let's move on.

Let's think about the future now.

Let's.

Let's look at what other goals we can work towards.

Doesn't always have to be about money.

It's just.

It's a bit of freedom, really.

I don't think there is any better way that you could really show love towards your loved ones than get your affairs in order.

And I don't think any of us are perfect, but anything you do is going to be better than nothing.

What's the famous thing?

Plan beats no plan.

So I think the Valentine's takeaway is flowers die, chocolates get eaten.

But your affairs in order, that is going to last.

So if you love your family, don't leave them.

Confusion, delays, arguments, pain, grief.

I think you can radically change a situation that you have organized things as best you can and hopefully there's a pot of money, life insurance or otherwise, for them.

So leave them that clarity, leave them that security.

Leave them some instructions.

Instructions.

And that's.

That's your true love.

Thanks, Sanjay.

Thanks, Gemma.

It's been great.

This has been another episode of business without bs and you can catch us again soon.