From Disillusion to Faith

In this episode of Orange Hatter, Tali explores the journey of JB, a physician assistant who saw flaws in traditional Western medicine and discovered Bitcoin as a transformative force. The conversation touches on the value of Bitcoin in fostering personal freedom and financial stability, despite it being often technically complex to comprehend. A significant emphasis is given to the importance of enhancing self-education on finance and economics.

00:03 Introduction and Announcement of Women's Retreat

01:22 Guest Introduction and Conversation Start

01:56 Guest's Background and Professional Experiences

02:47 Exploring Nutrition and Holistic Approaches in Psychiatry

04:03 Questioning Traditional Western Medicine and Funding

04:35 Discovering Bitcoin and Its Potential

05:00 Personal Experiences with Nutrition and Diet

06:51 Challenges in Sharing Nutritional Approaches in Medical Practice

13:17 Transition to Bitcoin Discussion

13:22 Guest's Early Exposure to Bitcoin

15:09 Understanding the Stock Market and Bitcoin's Role

18:25 Personal Transformation and Bitcoin Adoption

18:42 Building a Local Bitcoin Community

21:05 Reflecting on the Bitcoin Learning Journey

21:45 The Importance of Community in Learning Bitcoin

22:09 Starting a Local Bitcoin Meetup

22:37 The Impact of Bitcoin Meetups and Bitcoin Park

23:30 The Character of Bitcoiners and the Value of Local Communities

25:09 Overcoming Technical Challenges in Understanding Bitcoin

31:00 The Shift in Investment and Financial Mindset

34:23 The Personal Transformation through Bitcoin

36:04 Overcoming Scarcity Mindset and Understanding Bitcoin's Role

38:20 The Spiritual Aspect of Bitcoin

39:25 Advice for Women New to Bitcoin

43:38 Closing Remarks and Invitation to Join the Women's Reading Club

***

To learn more about Bitcoin: Join the Orange Hatter Women's Reading Club.  Visit https://www.meetup.com/womensbitcoinreadingclubwithorangehatter

Please email questions/comments to tali@orangehatter.com

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I think maybe another time in my life I may have brushed Bitcoin off,

2

but it was very easy for me to accept

Bitcoin because I'm familiar with big

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systems not working on a really large

scale and that can be hard to come to

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terms with and really disillusioning.

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Tali: Hey, everybody.

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Welcome to Orange Hatter.

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Before we dive into my conversation

with our guest today, I want to share

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with you a very exciting project,

the Orange Hatter Women's Retreat.

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The mission of this retreat is to create

a nurturing sanctuary where women in the

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Bitcoin space can connect with each other,

recharge batteries, find grounding, and

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form deep friendships so that you don't

feel so isolated where you are sharing

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the potential of Bitcoin with the world

while keeping an eye on the fiat system.

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This retreat is going to

be absolutely amazing.

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I am partnering with the

Yucatan Project in Mexico.

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The details will be rolled

out later this week.

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Keep an eye out on Twitter

at Orange Hatter Pod.

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I'll give out more information

as they are finalized.

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Spaces are very limited, and

they're going to fill up fast.

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So sign up for it when the registration

and I will see you in Mexico.

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And now we're going to.

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Continue with our podcast.

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Here is my conversation with

our wonderful guests today.

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Welcome to Orange Hatter JB.

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It's so wonderful to have you here.

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Thank you for joining us and

sharing your Bitcoin story.

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JB: thank you for having me.

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It's really excited to talk to you because

I just just recently saw you in person.

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So it's very familiar coming

back after grassroots.

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Tali: Yeah, I'm so glad we got

to meet each other in person.

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Get to know each other.

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better.

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And now I get to share your

story with our audience.

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So very excited.

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Let's start by just telling us a

little bit about your background.

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JB: So, right now I work

as a physician assistant.

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, I work in a local

hospital, small hospital.

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My, sub specialty is in psychiatry,

which is, , consult liaison psychiatry,

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and we, we work a lot with people

who, , are hospitalized on the medical

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floors or maybe coming for triage in

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the ER.

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Tali: you were sharing some feelings

about your professional experiences,

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even before you came across Bitcoin.

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Would you mind sharing

a little bit about that?

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JB: Yes, , so I worked at another

hospital in, um, I've worked

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various jobs over the past years.

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, the longest thing in psychiatry and, a

few, several years ago, I saw some folks

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and coworkers have adverse effects to

some of the things that are required

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to work in the medical industry.

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And I was really looking into

nutrition and more holistic ways

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to try and help my patients.

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I felt like I kind of maxed out what

I could do with medications and I was

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reading a lot about nutrition, a lot about

functional medicine and then kind of.

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I had some experiences where I saw

some folks have some adverse effects

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that should have really been minor

and statistically, I probably never

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should have seen if the stats were

right on those adverse events.

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And so that got me really curious

and looking closer at some things

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and traditional Western medicine.

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And I think, I just realized that

there is a lot more that can be done.

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I think from a lifestyle food

approach, we don't get much

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nutrition in medical school.

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I was really kind of naive about that.

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, and I think there's, I think we're waking

up to, , there's a lot that we don't know

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that we don't know, , in Western medicine

that maybe other disciplines kind of have

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the jump on us in terms of nutrition and.

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And that sort of thing.

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, but also the people I work

with are really smart.

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They're very intelligent and well read.

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, and so it was kind of this moment of

disillusionment where it was like, how can

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such a big industry like this be missing

some of these things that are so simple?

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, and I think.

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That led me to look further at, where the

funding comes from , in the medical world.

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And, , , potential conflicts of

interest in terms of our education,

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who, who funds our journals

and, and those types of things.

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And, um, I think the statement I was

making to you earlier is that , trying

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to understand how that happened on that

scale, , and how maybe we've overlooked

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some things like diet and lifestyle,

, really primed me, , to maybe accept.

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That there's issues like that things

going on on a scale , in our government

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and our, our banking industry.

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, and so.

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When I learned more about Bitcoin, and

when I paid more attention to Bitcoin,

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it was very, I think, maybe another

time in my life, I I may have brushed

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Bitcoin off, but it was very easy

for me to accept Bitcoin because I'm

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familiar with big systems, not working

on a really large scale, and that can

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be hard to come to terms with, and, and

really, , disillusioning, or, cause

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a lot of disillusionment if you have

been living in another larger market.

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or making other assumptions.

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Tali: So , when you started exploring

things like nutrition, diet,

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JB: That's a great question.

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Initially.

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, I think I've always been

a detail oriented person.

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I think people always advise

me not to overthink things.

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So people are kind of accustomed

to me going down rabbit holes, you

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know, and that's why I work on a

medical service or work with the

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medical services like I do now.

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I enjoy that.

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Uh, you know, for me, it was

more of a personal experience.

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I was, uh, reading about

different nutritional protocols.

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, the Walsh protocol is one.

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I really, I wound up doing

his conferences and CME.

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I really enjoyed that.

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And so what was happening for

me was I was eating better.

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I was cutting some things out of my diet.

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I was supplementing a few things

like minerals and B vitamins and

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just really seeing this amazing

change in my short term memory.

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, and that was helping out my anxiety.

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I probably was the person that

you could Spin in the ADHD anxiety

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categories and that just really

helped it transform for me.

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and so, you know, everything we do in

western medicine is evidence-based,

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and you have to be really careful

about doing anything that there

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isn't good published literature for.

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But I was trying to show up at

work in my own way and be like,

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wow, this is really working for me.

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And I've, cut out all medication and I'm

sleeping better and I'm dreaming better.

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And, you know, honestly.

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People were like, oh, that's great.

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But when I tried to really be more

specific about what was happening , and

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direct people towards books or things

like that, nobody, nobody believed me, you

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know, they just kind of had me on the head

and I felt like, gosh, I'm really feel

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like I'm shouting this from the rooftops.

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Like, this could be really great

and I think that I wonder if maybe

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there's some part of , our training

in Western medicine that sort of

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leads us to dismiss the power that.

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Just those simple changes can have.

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It was not, I don't want to say it

wasn't, well received in that sense,

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but I think it was just more dismissed.

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I think people thought it was really

overstating the benefits that I

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was getting and also I think kind

of the assumption that like, if

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that was that great, we would have

figured it out by now, you know,

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it would be in all the journals.

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It would be in all the literature.

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, and so that.

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I think that's a really long explanation.

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and I think everybody has to come

to their own conclusions to why

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that's maybe that, you know, we

don't have an emphasis as much.

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I think it's starting to happen.

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We're seeing a big push and integrative

and functional medicine and there's

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a lot of people in that that have

a prescribers license or a medical

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license that are adding that into their

practice and taking a closer look at it.

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Tali: Were you allowed to talk about it

with your patients or were you forced

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to keep that information to yourself

because the association that you're part

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of maybe doesn't support that or condone

the sharing of outside information

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JB: Um, you know, I think there was

there were certainly we have we have

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students a lot in the hospital or

is that so we would do literature

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reviews and look at the quality of

data for things like simple things like

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supplementing magnesium or things like

that and it's just not , sometimes this

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may have changed several years ago.

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It's not as robust as say, like a

cardiology study or something where.

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You can scale that and, and really look

at something that's a one or a zero.

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It's hard sometimes in

psychiatry to get hard figures.

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So I think people did entertain

the idea of doing a literature

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review, , but there's not always

an abundance of literature in the

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traditional journals out there.

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That's robust.

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That really has a high end and is

really done well, , and so, you

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know, somebody could always make

the case that, oh, there's not,

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there's not good evidence for that.

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It's very easy to say that and be right.

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, and so I think people have to

kind of ask the question, well,

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why isn't there good evidence?

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Why aren't we doing more robust studies?

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And I think that's really where, you

know, I leave it up to everybody to

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kind of decide, , and do their own,

you know, such an overused phrase, but

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do their own research on that 1, and

kind of that's just food for thought,

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but I think if, , you know, having

that conversation with people about.

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Thank you.

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Really simple things like cutting out

sugar and caffeine in their diet and

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just really practical things that I

think anybody Can get behind definitely

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was something that I became more had

a lot more conviction about But as far

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as really specific protocols, I did

actually pay to fly one doctor with

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me To the conference I want to say

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and I can't remember he he wound up I

think eventually go out into private

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practice and do that in private practice

Last that I heard, but we haven't

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we haven't been keeping up together.

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Tali: the reason I ask is because I had

a friend who was a pediatrician and in

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order to practice, you have to be a part

of the American Pediatric Association.

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And I remember meeting up with

her when my oldest daughter was

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four months old, and she said

Tali , the back of her head is flat.

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And I said, okay, I don't, you

know, I don't know what shape.

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I mean, it just looked like a head to me.

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But she said, she said,

Tali, her head is flat.

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You need to sleep her on the side.

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And I said, but my pediatrician

emphatically told me from day one

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that I need to sleep her on her back.

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And she said, she's restricted to follow

the American Pediatric Association.

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She could not tell her patients who were

coming into her practice with babies with

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a flathead to sleep them on their side.

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But she said, I'm telling you right

now, my own children, they sleep on

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their side because If they sleep on

their back, their head will be flat.

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And then you see these kids being pushed

around strollers wearing those helmet

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JB: Yeah,

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Tali: trying to reshape the head.

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JB: yeah,

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Tali: So she said her hands are tied.

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She can't tell her patients what

she's doing herself with their kids

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because she would get in trouble

and she would lose her license.

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But she said in private, I am telling you,

you need to sleep your baby on the side.

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So I'm just wondering if

there's something like that in.

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Your specific area that prevented

you from sharing outside information,

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about using nutrition or diet to

improve psychiatric condition.

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I'm just trying to understand if there

are parallels that we can be drawn here.

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JB: I think so, I think the general

answer to that question is yes, I

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think there is some testing you can

do to sometimes support nutritional.

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Interventions, , it's hard because

the protocols that are in the,

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maybe, like, the private arena, , the

standard lab that you're using, they

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may use 1 reference range is normal.

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And then your protocol may say, okay,

a different number is not normal.

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And, you know, your hospital lab is

going to call it as they, as they see it.

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And so.

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, yeah, I think especially as a, as a

physician assistant, I'm practicing

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under someone else's license.

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I'm, I have a supervising physician

and so I won't step outside of

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what they're comfortable with.

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And I was, I was fortunate at the time

to have actually worked with a physician

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who had owned a, like a supplement

store and had been in the integrative

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arena at another point in his life.

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So he was really accepting, , of my

views, but I think clinically we have

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to practice evidence based medicine

and, , you know, there is a downside to

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supplements and things like that too.

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They are powerful.

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And so people can also not tolerate them.

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, and so I certainly didn't want

to give someone something that.

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Okay.

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You know, can have untoward consequences

and then have them be even more anxious or

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feel worse and then leave the hospital and

then not have someone to follow up with.

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So I would say at the time I

treaded it very lightly with that.

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, and definitely stay within reason of

what's in the published literature

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and what's accepted as general.

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You know, general medical recommendations.

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I was and still am very aggressive

about checking for things like B12

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deficiency, things that are really

generally accepted to cause psychiatric

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illness and can be great mimicers and

look like, look like different things.

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And so I think at work, people know

if they're consulting and they just

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like, go ahead and order the B12

level, they're like, Oh, JB, we're just

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gonna put this order in now because

she's going to come do it if we don't.

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And so that's great.

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I'm glad to have that influence.

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Thank you.

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, and so I go for kind of the low hanging

fruit on things like that, and then just

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talk to people about generally accepted

diet and lifestyle and cutting out things

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that maybe could be undermining them,

especially in terms of anxiety and things

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like caffeine and that sort of stuff.

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Tali: Cool.

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Okay, so now let's talk Bitcoin.

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JB: Yeah.

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Tali: first hear about Bitcoin?

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JB: Oh man, this is, this is, so my

Bitcoin story is a little embarrassing.

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I, I heard about Bitcoin way back

when I had friends in college

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that were mining Bitcoin when

it was, , fractions of a penny.

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, and so I, but I really did not understand

what it was and they mentioned it in

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passing and I was like, oh, that's cool.

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My super computer nerd friends are

doing this interesting thing and they

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sort of framed it as like, if you.

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if you're in another

country, maybe it's unsafe.

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You can have this electronic

wallet and no people can't rob you.

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And I kind of sort of understood it.

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And I was like, well, that's cool.

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And maybe, maybe one day they'll be able

to use dollars, you know, and it had no

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clue, just totally checked out pre med

student, not really into politics, not

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really into banking, econ, finance, I

liked history, but didn't really know

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it, , from that standpoint and then,

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You know, I had, I had done a

fellowship in psychiatry at one point.

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, and I had tried to check out and

do something totally different,

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which was trade stocks.

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So I knew a little bit

about trading stocks.

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And then when I got further along

in my career, I started looking at

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retirement in the meantime, the 2017.

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Run had happened.

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And, , so I had heard about that just by

way of knowing people that had been early

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miners and, , it was on my radar then.

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I still didn't realize it was something

that I could buy on an exchange.

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I didn't know anything about that.

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And then, but I did

want to retire someday.

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And I was recognizing that inflation

was taking a toll on my life, but just

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didn't really have the words for it.

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And I kind of did the

whole Dave Ramsey thing.

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I did the whole, you know, learn

about index fund investing.

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And that was cool, but it just

didn't seem like it was going

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to get me where I wanted to go.

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and so then I started looking at.

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Different things like managing my own

retirement portfolios, all the things

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they tell you not to do and looking at

different stocks and following the market.

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And I think two things that

happened, one is, , I was reading

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a book on how the market moves

and how volume moves the market.

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And there was a book that was about who

moves the world it was about insider

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trading, I guess you could say, or

presumed insider trading in the market and

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how they were able to witness that and,

what markets look like before they crash.

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And I just thought that

was absolutely fascinating.

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And then separately, one of the stock

picker guys that I was following was

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really talking about Bitcoin a lot.

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And so it's interesting

because traders get a lot of.

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People don't like traders in general,

or they say, , somebody wins the

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trade, you know, there's a losing side,

but, , traders are interesting people.

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and I think it's, it's in a

way, it's like a sport to them.

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They really train for it.

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You really have to be aware in

your mind of what you're doing.

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So you don't sabotage yourself.

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Um, and they read a lot about

the fundamentals of companies and

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they certainly know about things.

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Like potential insider trading or

corruption in the stock market.

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So, , finally I had read about

Bitcoin and I came to the Bitcoin

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standard and I read that and then I

read the creature from Jekyll Island.

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, and I had actually joined the

trading room, the options trading

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room and seen firsthand, , big block

trades, , essentially move the market.

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And.

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I had seen them trade early before events.

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I had bought, Tesla, I'm going to

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didn't know what I was doing.

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I mean, I want to be clear the whole time.

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I had no clue what I was doing.

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Um, and that's probably still true to

some degree, but, you know, Tesla had,

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had Stock split five times and gone up.

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you know, it would have been an insane

ROI had I held on to it, but you know, Jim

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Kramer had really gotten after Tesla and

kind of dogged it out on the television.

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And I was up, you know, like, I think my

ROI was like, 300 percent or something.

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And so I thought, Oh, it's Tesla.

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They're ruined.

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I'm you know, sell my stock or whatever.

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And then of course, we all know

what happened after that, , split

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five times and rallied to almost

a thousand dollars a share.

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Yeah.

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And so I had become aware, , that

certain people hold the view that.

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Influencers in the market can sometimes

be used to create exit liquidity for

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big hedge funds or big institutions.

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And I had become aware that

you can't always believe what

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you see on on television.

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And so I was so curious, , and this

now was COVID had started to happen.

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And so the lockdowns were happening

and I had more free time on my hands.

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And so I was in and around

these options trading room.

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I was not trading options.

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I'm not that good of a trader I have

no business going anywhere near them

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But I could actually see in real time

what was happening and and watch the

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news cycles And then see the trades

Happening big block trades happening.

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And so that was again really kind of a

period of disillusionment and then at

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the same time , in that same vein during

COVID, Jack Mallers was launching Chivo

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Wallet in El Salvador and, , doing all

these interesting and wonderful things.

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And so COVID was a really dark,

dark time for a lot of people.

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It was difficult working in the

hospital and, it was difficult accepting

338

that maybe things weren't the way

I thought they were in the world.

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And.

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Bitcoin was this really cool, , area

of light to focus on where it's

341

like, Hey, maybe there's a way

out of these inflationary cycles.

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, , so I started going to our local meetups.

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And I met our organizer there

that organizes our local meetup.

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I now help him co organize, but really

the creature from Jekyll Island, you

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know, I went upstairs one day and

read an insane amount of that book.

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I still, I don't think I've actually

finished it, but the majority of

347

that book and it just came downstairs

a completely different person.

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I don't know.

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Have you read that?

350

You have.

351

Okay.

352

So you know what I'm talking about.

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Tali: I have not.

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Scott read it.

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And every night he would rant about

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JB: Yes.

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Tali: so I feel like I read

it, even though I didn't.

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Now I'm just, I don't

want to be depressed.

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You know, it's a, it's

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JB: Right,

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Tali: there when you start looking

at our monetary system, even with

362

Bitcoin, it just gets very depressing.

363

You just start to question human

nature, you start to question

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intentions, because I tend to like

To think that most people are good.

365

, most people want to do the right thing.

366

And when you read books like

that, you're just like, really?

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Seriously?

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Yeah.

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JB: So needless to say I came downstairs

a completely different person and

370

, I'm from the South, bless, bless my

poor ex partner's heart at the time.

371

He was just like, what

happened to my girlfriend?

372

You know, I really do

have sympathy for him.

373

But I think probably, I'd love

to hear Scott, I'd love to

374

hear Scott's side of this too.

375

, because we had to have a safe word in the

house in case I talked about Bitcoin too

376

much and finally he was like, Oh my gosh,

can we please talk about something else?

377

And so I got like a sweatshirt

that said freedom on it.

378

And then the O was a Bitcoin, of course.

379

And then once a week I could go

out to my meetup and we were all

380

there leaning on each other.

381

And, everybody was having

the same experience.

382

It was like, I just need to get

out of the house and go talk

383

about Bitcoin with my friends.

384

And then, fast forward now, I think

we're almost 2 years that , we initially

385

were meeting weekly because we all

really needed that during covid.

386

And then when the, when life resumed,

, and things have opened back up, we

387

went to bi- weekly, but then still with

informal meetings on our week off because.

388

Yeah.

389

, there's probably we don't have a

really robust Bitcoin theme like

390

Austin often or Nashville do here.

391

There's people that are interested.

392

, but it's a small community.

393

And so we really flock to each other.

394

Anytime we get the chance, no one else in

our personal lives wants to hear about it.

395

Tali: when Scott really started to

pay attention to Bitcoin, he started.

396

listening to all kinds of podcasts.

397

He was reading book after book after book.

398

And he was sending me like three

podcasts a day to say, Hey,

399

you need to listen to this.

400

And oh, by the way, here's a book and

here are two more and there are three

401

more and just like throwing stuff at me.

402

. So our safe word is the hand,

you know, like if I put up the

403

hand, that's too much, you know?

404

Yeah.

405

And, uh, but.

406

But it took him two years.

407

It took him two years before he could

convince me that Bitcoin was real.

408

And then of course, when I started

going down the rabbit hole, I

409

was like, why didn't you grab me

410

JB: Right.

411

Right.

412

Tali: and sit me down, you know,

but I guess I wasn't ready,

413

but he did try really hard.

414

And kind of like what you're

saying, we just didn't have.

415

Anybody in our personal life who

we could go to to ask questions.

416

I think that would have made

a huge difference for me

417

personally, but we had nobody.

418

It was all, all of our

learning was from a distance.

419

There was no Bitcoin meetup here.

420

That was

421

JB: You started your meetup, right?

422

That's right.

423

Tali: Yeah, we started it.

424

Our group is very small.

425

We are still struggling

to find local Bitcoiners.

426

I would say almost every single

person who's in our meetup

427

right now, we met in Nashville.

428

We would be in Nashville, milling around

and we were introducing, , where we're

429

from and we'll say we're from Louisville.

430

They're like, no way.

431

We're from Louisville.

432

What?

433

Where are you?

434

And then we'll find out

that we're really close.

435

And then when we started the meetup,

we were able to get together, but I

436

think I met almost every single person,

except for one person Bitcoin Park.

437

JB: yeah.

438

I love Bitcoin Park.

439

And that was a huge, that was a huge,

turning point for me is being there

440

and actually meeting the people that

are working in the Bitcoin space and

441

just seeing that really the content

of their character., it's amazing.

442

being around other Bitcoiners and

particularly at our grassroots where

443

the meetup organizers meet in that

Bitcoin park with Rod and Matt and now

444

Harry, that is really a special place.

445

And, coming with my interest in health

and nutrition and looking at Western

446

medicine through a different lens.

447

When I got there, everybody

else was already doing that.

448

They were like, yeah,

okay, yeah, we eat healthy.

449

And I was like, wow, these people

already, they know, this is this kind

450

of incorporated into their lifestyle.

451

And I think my favorite thing

about those people and often

452

the people that run meetups.

453

Every single person that I've met that

runs the meetup is big winners like to

454

know how things work Like they're going

to get to things on a very granular

455

Level and look like they're going

to go molecule deep and they want to

456

understand how it works from the ground

up And also just really well intentioned

457

people in the space And I think if

people are coming into the Bitcoin space

458

or have questions about Bitcoin Even if

they haven't bought any Bitcoin yet, I

459

think one of the best things you can do

is just start circulating in the local

460

meetups in the local communities and

just meet the people that are working,

461

, the developers that are working on the

projects or the people that are building

462

apps on lightning or, , doing things to

create a circular economy and just let.

463

Yourself be the judge of the

content of their character

464

and how you feel around them.

465

, I feel really good

around other Bitcoiners.

466

I can sit in the corner and not say

a word and just listen to, you know,

467

what other people saying in the, in

the room and be completely , content.

468

And, you know, there's people who

disagree in the Bitcoin community,

469

but they can handle that and they

can talk about that in a way that's

470

constructive and, give each other a

good ribbing and spicy conversation

471

and it's okay, and I think that.

472

, when people are speaking their truth

and living in their truth, they're not

473

threatened in a time when there's been

so much these past few years, that's

474

polarizing and so much that divisive,

it's really nice to be at conferences

475

and places around people where they can

have a civil disagreement and really

476

have constructive conversation about it

and you know that both sides are well

477

intentioned, they're trying to, build

something, , to support their communities

478

and help undo some of the damage of the

inflationary environment that we're in.

479

Tali: Yeah, definitely.

480

, okay.

481

So thinking back to those first few

months, let's say, , during COVID

482

when you were first really diving in

deep into, , what Bitcoin is and how

483

it works and everything, what was

your biggest question or the biggest

484

obstacle you had to get over to be

convinced that Bitcoin is real and is

485

something you should pay attention to?

486

JB: Ooh, that's a really good question.

487

Um,

488

I have to think on that.

489

I can tell you one that I still

struggle with right now is, Like I was

490

saying, stakeholders like to understand

things I think on a granular level.

491

I am not a developer.

492

I am not a technically enabled person.

493

, I can use a smartphone intuitively and

I can type pretty quickly, but that's

494

how all you're going to get out of me.

495

And so I think like when things

come up like with the ordinal or

496

there's network congestion and.

497

You know, in medicine, I

can go back to the books.

498

I can go back to gen chem.

499

I can read journal articles

and I have the, basic science

500

understanding . In Bitcoin.

501

I don't have that.

502

And so I have to look to other people

like our meetup organizer, Craig.

503

I have to look to the tech

people to translate for me.

504

What's happening?

505

, you know, the box size words.

506

I understood pretty well, but I

think understanding how lightning

507

network is going to scale and

looking at the hurdles that the.

508

Network it needs to overcome.

509

I think I'm intimidated by that,

because I can't look at the code or say,

510

okay, I understand this at this level.

511

And so I think trusting that those

problems and that what they're trying

512

to do to make Bitcoin more accessible

for daily use and uncomplicatable

513

to borrow a word, I think trusting

that, that that's real, that we can

514

do that and that those problems exist,

that they will be solved, I think is.

515

, I'm much more comfortable with now

that I've spent time around people

516

that code and do the developing

and I can see how they think and

517

have more discussions about that.

518

So, I think really.

519

For me, it was getting past the

fact that I don't understand

520

the technical level of it.

521

And I'm, I'm used to having a nuts and

bolts understanding of things that I.

522

Invest into that amount.

523

Or I thought I did, maybe I don't know.

524

I mean, that's that's the

whole whole gist of it.

525

But at least at work in my professional

space, when I make really big life

526

changing decisions, potentially for

me or my patients, I feel like I'm

527

doing it from pretty solid ground.

528

But the Bitcoin network's

been up for 14 years now.

529

, and so I think that in and of

itself is a testament as we see

530

other kind of challengers in

the crypto space come and go.

531

that does a lot.

532

Tali: Yeah, I definitely agree

with you about having to rely

533

on somebody else to translate.

534

The technology or the, , the debates for

you so , like you said, there are some

535

things in life that we feel like we have

a pretty solid understanding and even

536

if somebody introduces a new idea, we

have something to go on to evaluate it,

537

whereas in Bitcoin space, it's so foreign

and like you said, if you go to, if you

538

spend time with developers, actually,

I have been so impressed when I go to

539

the BitDev meetings, how Long term,

they have to look down like they have

540

to look 10, 20, 30 steps down the road

and have philosophical discussions and

541

debates to code what they're coding now.

542

So these are very intentional

people very smart, like you

543

said, and nobody can predict the

future, but they do their best.

544

And that's why those discussions where

they disagree are so, so valuable, because

545

JB: Right.

546

Tali: if you disagree, that means you're

looking at it from different points of

547

view, and that's actually a richer and

better and more big picture way of looking

548

at solving a problem or a potential

problem, trying to predict what the

549

their code has to solve down the road.

550

I mean, that's a big job.

551

And the more All right.

552

time you spend with these people,

the more, just feeling their energy.

553

Like for me, feeling somebody's

energy in person is a big thing.

554

And, uh, you learn to trust that

they all have good intentions.

555

JB: Yeah, I hundred, a hundred

percent agree with that.

556

And I think, I have fallen

out of step with doing that.

557

Just I've switched jobs eventually and

have been working more and I haven't used

558

to drive to Nashville pretty much on a

monthly basis and was really keeping up

559

with the current events in the Bitcoin

community and just was switching jobs.

560

I haven't been doing that as much, but

definitely coming to both the Atlanta

561

conference, the tab conference, and

then, , grassroots is refreshing on that.

562

And given, you know, back my

conviction, not that it was lost, but

563

it was just kind of quiet for a bit.

564

I was like, oh, man.

565

I think Bitcoin has just become

so integrated into my life.

566

You know, when you're first into it,

you're kind of looking at the price and

567

you're talking about market cycles And

then you just kind of come to, as you

568

come to understand what it is and what

we're hoping it will do for us, you sort

569

of thought, I don't, I can't remember the

last time I checked the price of Bitcoin.

570

, I can't really remember the last time I

thought about another coin and people,

571

you know, will ask me about other coins.

572

I'm like I'm sorry.

573

I just really can't even tell you.

574

I don't even really have an opinion.

575

I don't follow any of that.

576

And it just sort of fades.

577

, , I think my entire thinking about Bitcoin

has shifted in the past two years.

578

And it's just sort of become

a almost way of life, but it's

579

just there in the background.

580

it's something that I, when

I came on this podcast, I was

581

like, what am I going to say?

582

That's not depressing.

583

I don't want to say a bunch of

depressing stuff and that that is

584

where I turn my attention at the end

of the day, like, when I want to reward

585

myself, or I want to take a break.

586

It's like, okay, let's

see what's going on.

587

What are people building?

588

What are the developers up to, ? Was

the spicy disagreement this week,

589

you know, , and I think that that

is definitely been, a ray of a ray

590

of light, in a time when things are

really uncertain in our country, , that

591

it provides a lot of consistency.

592

Tali: okay.

593

So you went down the Bitcoin

rabbit hole during COVID.

594

You've been in this space

fully committed now to Bitcoin

595

specifically for about two years.

596

So when you turn around and look

at the past two years, how do you

597

see your life has changed because

of your involvement in Bitcoin?

598

JB: Oh, my gosh, girl, I burned it down.

599

No, I'm just kidding.

600

, I think I, I look at things

very different politically.

601

I kind of always I'm sort of back

to where I started with, which

602

is like, I didn't really want

anything to do with politicians.

603

They always seem kind of off and weird

to me and I still have that conviction.

604

But I do pay attention more to what's

being said in the news and at least what

605

people are purporting your platform to be.

606

So I'm probably more of a

political person., so the question

607

is, how is my life different,

like, how has it shaped my life?

608

I definitely invest differently.

609

, I think I have found a financial

advisor that is Bitcoin friendly.

610

I have not been keeping up my

side of communication there.

611

I need to check back in with him.

612

, I did the whole thing.

613

I did the buy a whole coin, lose a

whole coin, trusting it to a friend.

614

You know, initially I was looking

at other coins because I didn't

615

understand what Bitcoin was.

616

Went through that whole thing.

617

So all the stories, had the old

car that you keep , don't, so you

618

don't have to have car payments

so you can buy more of a Bitcoin.

619

Every, every kind of stereotype.

620

I definitely have, have lived

that and, you know, had the big

621

financial loss and doing dumb things.

622

And so now I would say I use that a

lot more understanding that my dollars

623

later are going to be worthless.

624

So I finance things

where I might not have.

625

I was raised in a family where debt

was this really bad evil thing.

626

, I really gained a lot of insight

into, , scarcity mindset and having

627

that mindset around wealth and money.

628

That's definitely something that I

think is inherited in our family.

629

Really coming to terms with shame

around money or shame with having

630

something or having wealth.

631

That's been really interesting journey

that I don't think is over yet.

632

And just looking at longer term things.

633

So, like, I was talking with you

before about looking at something

634

like, , a car wash for definitely not

passive income, but income where that

635

can be, , a type of income that can

be generating, , cash flow, maybe,

636

like, while I'm working another job.

637

And so, , just looking at different

types of investments, And just, yeah, I

638

mean, just paying a lot more attention.

639

They have that thing.

640

There's people who understand economics

and then there's people who work work

641

for them, you know, if you don't.

642

And so I think my focus now is really

trying to catch up on understanding

643

economics and finance, but also

just feeling really a drift on,

644

How to invest with the Bitcoin

being part of, there's a lot of

645

people that just are like all

Bitcoin and like they own a house.

646

They are kind of set in certain

ways and they just go all Bitcoin.

647

I have friends that have pulled

their entire retirement out, cashed

648

it out and put it in Bitcoin.

649

It's definitely not financial advice

for me, but, , so I think trying to

650

figure out where that is for me in

terms of retirement And how, because

651

like you said, it's a very long

term, people have a very long term

652

outlook that are investing in Bitcoin.

653

And so, to, I don't think I was

very good at visualizing what I

654

wanted that to look like before.

655

So answering those questions

has become more concrete.

656

For me, for sure.

657

And then also I had some unpopular

beliefs during COVID, tend to take

658

off both sides, so I think for me,

it was a very lonely time, my family

659

and I don't see eye to eye on things

and we're always going to talk to

660

each other and be around each other.

661

, but just definitely.

662

I was an outlier in my work

environment, my home environment.

663

We had a personal tragedy

in my ex partner's family.

664

That really took a lot of our

time and was very stressful.

665

And we ultimately ended up separating.

666

And so there was kind of this void.

667

Where I was adrift from the community

I had been in before, and I was always

668

kind of this fringe health person that

people were like, oh, that's so cute.

669

And then suddenly I was this fringe

health person, and it was like,

670

wow, there's a lot of space here.

671

But I will say that that space is

being filled with things that I think

672

fit me a lot better as a person, and

I've come to know myself a lot better.

673

I think people found out who they were the

past couple years and what they're willing

674

to compromise on and what they're not.

675

And I have a lot of conviction, and

I don't think I've ever had that much

676

conviction about anything in my life.

677

, when people ask me about Bitcoin,

I'm just like, tell me a better idea.

678

, I don't have any better ideas, , and I

think some of the smartest people in

679

the world are working on Bitcoin right

now, in terms of the development, I

680

definitely try to get quiet and listen

when they're in the room talking and

681

learn as much as I can from them.

682

And I think Bitcoiners are the

type of people that if they saw

683

a better idea, they would say so.

684

Or they would entertain in

a discussion or a debate.

685

And so far in the past decade or

more, that really hasn't happened.

686

Tali: I want to circle back and ask

you a question about something you

687

just said that I find very fascinating.

688

You mentioned that your family

don't go into financing of any kind.

689

Did I catch that right?

690

Okay.

691

And then you also mentioned that you are

trying to reverse a scarcity mindset.

692

So I'm just wondering how you tie

those two things to Bitcoin and how

693

Bitcoin is helping specifically.

694

JB: yeah, that's a, , a

really good question.

695

So, yes, my parents, I love them dearly.

696

They're from a very hard working

community in upstate New York, and they

697

kind of have that, like, you're born,

you pay taxes, you die attitude and

698

your value really comes from your job.

699

and they definitely have that kind of

mindset, like, if you make money, or

700

if you earn a lot of money, you must

have taken something from someone.

701

so I think for me, there was a profound

sense of guilt, and this is why I say I

702

do have respect for traders, because if

you have any sort of subconscious thing,

703

or, , scarcity mindset, with that, it's

going to find you in your subconscious

704

when you're interacting with money on such

a direct level, and it, it came for me,

705

, if I made money trading, I felt guilty.

706

I felt like I had to give it back.

707

and that's something that

I still rest wrestle with.

708

I hope that's answering your question.

709

, I think Bitcoin helps with that because

Bitcoin forces you to look at things

710

on such a higher timeline, such a, , a

longer time, like 5 to 10 years, and

711

it forces you to really be honest

with yourself about what's going on.

712

On in the world, when people learn

about Bitcoin, one of the most

713

important things is the education

about the financial system.

714

I always say there's two types of people.

715

If you think everything's fine and,

and going on well with the government,

716

you probably don't want to talk to me.

717

If you think that , maybe some things

could be better, or you think that

718

maybe they don't always have your

best interest at heart that's probably

719

the person that I'll invest my time.

720

Talking with, , and so I think

Bitcoin and needing to do something

721

about we all have to figure out in

this environment as we move into

722

this post COVID world, lots of money

printing, our dollars being devalued.

723

We want to take care of our

families, our neighbors, our homes.

724

We have to figure out how

we're going to do that.

725

And Bitcoin forces us to one, be

honest every day, because you're doing

726

this thing that's contrarian, right?

727

And you're doing it with your

money and your livelihood.

728

I personally, I view, Bitcoin for me,

it's very, it's almost very divine.

729

It's like this almost like

divine intervention and it's very

730

equal in how it treats people.

731

, your money is treated the same

on the Bitcoin blockchain as say,

732

like Elon Musk's money would be.

733

and so it's very fair.

734

I think , there is a spiritual community.

735

There's a thank God

for Bitcoin conference.

736

, I don't know if I have words for it

yet, but those are the people that I'm

737

absolutely the most comfortable around.

738

, I think for me, Bitcoin is an

equalizer in a lot of ways.

739

And, I don't know how

that's going to unfold.

740

but what I have seen is my, some of

my friends who are very, you know,

741

cypher punk, it's a one or it's a zero.

742

There's not a lot of space

for spirituality there.

743

I think it's interesting that they

have, especially in the times that

744

we're living in now, they have sort

of felt almost more aligned with

745

people that have a spiritual belief

or any sort of religious conviction.

746

I think there's an

interesting parallel there.

747

To believe in something that strongly

and to be using it for the good of other

748

people and with those kinds of intentions.

749

Tali: Any last recommendations

for women who are still sitting

750

on the fence about Bitcoin?

751

, JB: I think I said this early on,

but I just want to emphasize, I can't

752

emphasize it enough, going to your local

meetup or being around people that are

753

local to you in the Bitcoin community.

754

If you have the patience, the Creature

from Jekyll Island is actually a pretty

755

good read, especially once you get

past the first couple of chapters, , it

756

does a great job of providing, a

template or an example of what happens

757

in cultures that fall to inflation.

758

It's just such a good history book, and

it'll get you up to speed really quickly.

759

I also am really excited

about Lynn Alden's book.

760

I wish I could say I had read it.

761

She's one of my favorite.

762

I mean, there's so many people

out there that are so good.

763

You could have a list 100 people long.

764

trying to think of the name of

her book, but that's the thing

765

that I'm most excited about.

766

Um,

767

Tali: money.

768

JB: but thank you.

769

, she has a way of presenting

complex subjects from a 50, 000

770

foot view very quickly and easily.

771

I think where you don't have to

necessarily have an econ degree to

772

understand what she's saying, so I haven't

read broken money yet, but it's definitely

773

on the list and I will, I feel confident

about recommending anything by Lynn Alden.

774

And then I think just.

775

Taking time to really understand

the trading that our senators are

776

allowed to do, you know, that our, our

elected representatives are allowed

777

to do the conflict of interest.

778

There are certain social media

accounts that will follow their trade.

779

And just understanding how senators

have to report that, if they have

780

to report if they trade in the ETF,

understanding a little bit of the nuts

781

and bolts of what moves the market

and what our elected representatives

782

are accountable for disclosing, I

think will take people a long way.

783

I had no idea about that before

I learned about Bitcoin, and

784

then just practical things.

785

The orange pill app is a

great way to meet people.

786

I've definitely found that

to be worth the investment.

787

and then when people are looking

for their meetups, I wonder if

788

you guys have noticed this too.

789

the meetup search function in and

of itself is not very good, but

790

if you Google the town that you're

in and then like Bitcoin meetup.

791

I think tends to find our meetups faster.

792

A lot of people have searched us

using the organic meetup search

793

function and they don't find us.

794

So, , I think just be sure to

look for a meetup in your area.

795

and then considering going to a really

big meetup, like, Tennessee and, , Texas,

796

that's such an experience, I think.

797

Still blows my mind every time I go.

798

, but yeah, I think those are things

that people can do to really

799

get them oriented in the space.

800

And also just buying a small amount

of Bitcoin, like 5 and practicing

801

moving it to a hard wallet.

802

even just getting a little bit

of skin in the game, your brain

803

will naturally gravitate and

pick it up almost by osmosis.

804

Cause you know you have some

small investment that will.

805

A lot of people say, Oh, I

looked at that so many times.

806

And so I think if people just buy a small

amount, your brain will automatically

807

commit you more to reading about Bitcoin.

808

Tali: Great, great suggestions.

809

so meetup.

810

com I have found to be slightly

frustrating in looking up

811

groups, just like you said.

812

One caveat I want to just mention

is there are a lot of crypto...

813

Meetups that are listed under Bitcoin.

814

So just make sure that when you're reading

the description, it says Bitcoin only.

815

Otherwise, it's likely that

they are just a trading club.

816

JB: right.

817

I get hesitant.

818

I don't want to encourage people to trade.

819

I could do a whole nother podcast with

you about dumb things JB has done.

820

, , for sure.

821

Yeah, I think that I think the

meetups are a great place to

822

get specific questions answered.

823

like you said, have been

barriers for people.

824

In a very supportive environment, I

would be shocked if someone went to

825

a meet up and people were dismissive

or didn't answer their questions

826

. Tali: thank you for sharing your stories.

827

Thank you for sharing all of

your experiences, even the

828

mistakes that you've made.

829

I think they, they made you

who you are today and they

830

prepped you for this moment.

831

So

832

JB: for

833

sure.

834

Yeah, I'm making better choices.

835

Yes, you can ask my friends.

836

I'm making better choices.

837

Now.

838

Definitely.

839

I think good things have come into my

life since going down the rabbit hole.

840

So I'm very grateful.

841

Tali: Thanks for joining us today . If

the discussion with our guests

842

resonated with you and you would

like to dive deeper into the world of

843

Bitcoin, don't miss out on joining the

Orange Hatter Women's Reading Club.

844

The meetup link is in the show notes.

845

Also, if there are women in your life

whom you think would both enjoy and

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benefit from learning more about Bitcoin,

please share Orange Hatter with them.

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Until next time, bye!