Our sense of culture and identity impacts how we approach and conceptualise play. Many of the black women Stacey-Ann Morris has worked with have felt a pressure to fulfil the role of the “strong black woman”.

Stacey-Ann is a learning experience designer, facilitator, and educator who creates playful, inclusive, and meaningful connections related to personal and career development in work, school and community settings. She's a graduate of Harvard university, a Lego Serious Play facilitator and has designed curriculums programs and workshops at several universities and colleges.

Things to consider

• Play is an act of freedom, and a way to re-integrate our inner child.
• Play is a a form of resistance, and a birthright.
• As play facilitators, we need to be mindful of people’s history with the idea of play.

Links

• Connect with Stacey-Ann on LinkedIn
• Lego Serious Play
• Build Out Load
• Playfilled
• Make Work Play

Hello, welcome to the show.

My name's Tzuki Stewart from Playfilled

the show.

And I'm Lucy Taylor from Make Work Play together.

We are Why Play Works, the podcast that speaks to people, radically reshaping.

The idea of work as play.

today.

I'm speaking with Stacy-Ann Morris to explore community,

play learning and belonging.

Stacey-Ann is a learning experience designer, facilitator, and educator

who creates playful, inclusive, and meaningful connections, related to

personal and career development in work, school and community settings.

She designs, experiences that educate and inspire humans

to imagine new possibilities.

Stacey-Ann brings over 15 years of interdisciplinary experience

in designing, learning experience for youth and adults in various

sectors, federal government, higher education and nonprofit organizations.

She's a graduate of Harvard university, a Lego serious play

facilitator and has designed curriculums programs and workshops

at several universities and colleges.

Stacey Ann is also the co-founder of Built Out Loud, a personal

development program for black women, entrepreneurs and creatives in Ottawa.

In this episode, we talk about the process of writing a book on play as a form of

radical rest for black women, the power of imagination and planning your joy.

So Stacey-Ann, let's kick off with, what does the word play mean to you?

yes, this question is great because when I think of the word play, there's one word.

Comes to mind.

And it's the word freedom, you know, as adults, Um, play taps into our,

our natural state of being where it reconnects us to our, our inner

child or what I like to call joy.

So there's freedom there because it gives us an opportunity to let our, our minds

wander, to being the flow, to connect with people, uh, to move our bodies,

to laugh, to test, to experiment, and really play connects us to, to ourselves.

And that is so freeing.

So over the past few years, play has allowed me to heal.

It has encouraged me to lean into a fuller expression of my personality and connect

with communities And just try new things.

And when would you say you last felt playful?

So I have been doing plague experiments for this past year 2022.

My word of the year is play.

So I've been doing play experiments.

Um, so one month I build Lego sets for 30 days.

Another month, I dance for five minutes per day, like improvise, but the last

play experience that I've embarked on it.

Hula hooping.

Um, or should I say, like relearning, how to hula hoop, it's Amazing.

to pick up something from your childhood and try it in your adult body.

I think when I just picked up the whole belonged guy.

Yeah.

I know how to do this.

This is why I did this when I was a kid, um, very humbling

experience because I saw.

Um, so I had a friend come over and she also sucked at it as well.

So it felt really nice to be together.

But what we did is we found a YouTube video, uh, from 2011

by this gentleman called Mr.

Hoops.

And it's a music video of him rapping lyrics, and teaching how to hula hoop.

And I kid you not my friend and I were up till 2:00 AM on a weeknight,

trying to hula-hoop with Mr.

Hoop smiles.

And it was a lot of fun, like cheesy lyrics.

Cheesy lyrics.

Nice beat to this day.

I feel like I kind of remember like the lyrics, like, okay.

Yeah.

Here's a quick review place.

One foot in front of you rock back and forth is what you do.

You gotta wand your hoop, spin, start to move like that, that, that, that was it.

Right.

Um, so much fun, so much joy.

Uh, yeah, so that, that, that, that's the moment that, that comes up to mind.

Ah, thank you for sharing that.

That is, uh, I want to have the whole episode of just you rapping Mr.

Hoop smiles, that I just, I was getting my groove on when you're doing that.

Amazing.

Um, so I almost don't want to take away from that question, move away from it,

but it kind of, we'll talk more about how you use play in, in the variety of

work you do, but at a kind of conceptual level, how do you think play and work?

We relate to each other.

well, play and work are interconnected.

Um, and the reason why is this place fundamental to the human experience?

So if we value humans, we should value how they spend time at work.

Um, I think for some people, when they hear the word play, they

think of like ping pong tables.

Maybe cheesy.

I, I Spreaker games.

Um, I love icebreakers, but it's more than that, right?

It's, it's a, it's a mindset, plays a mindset.

So, you know, when you play, you discover you problem solve,

you collaborate, you innovate.

And there are a lot of.

Wicked problems and challenges in the workplace and having a playful mindset

can help in solving these problems.

Um, also like embracing play in the workplace can improve, you

know, productivity and results.

Um, I'm really passionate about like employee wellbeing, which is,

I think over the past few years, people have been thinking about

how they spend their time at work.

Um, and then finally, I would say that.

Play in the workplace fosters what we call it the three CS, right?

One curiosity.

Right?

So when you have a problem, like asking, like what is.

Questions or what would happen?

Uh, so that's the first C the second C is community.

So being able to play is very important to sustaining

relationships and it's contagious.

And when you have experiences meaningful experiences with folks it's memorable.

And the last C is current.

I know as I get older, it takes courage to try things.

Right.

So play allows you to, to do that, to do that in the workplace.

So yeah, there, there are definitely connected.

I love that point around courage.

I often think about how it takes bravery on the part of a leader

or, or, or any employee to think.

I want to bring a more playful way doing this to, to our

workplace that takes real bravery.

Um, but I think I like the word courage more, but it's, you know,

at the heart of that, I completely agree it it's, it's not an easy

thing to do for some, for many of us.

Yeah.

I totally agree.

I totally agree.

And that's where like, role modeling helps.

Right?

Yeah.

Now you've said that the common thread from all the beautiful hats you wear

in your life is how can we design spaces to help adults integrate more

imagination in designing their lives.

And I would just love to unpack that and hear some stories and some

results that you've seen when using this kind of play imagination.

With the various kind of communities you support, whether that's students,

staff, yourself, the black women, your support, just tell us more about the

stories and impact you've seen from using play and imagination in your work.

You know, imagination is such a superpower.

Being able to visualize beyond your common days is pretty awesome.

It's pretty cool.

Um, so one of the hats that I have.

Working with students in higher ed.

And I helped them think about their next steps after they graduate.

And the most common question I hear from students in the career office

is what am I going to do next?

I have many options or I don't have many options.

What, whichever one.

And so one playful method that I've used with students is

role-playing an imaginary future.

Right.

Your life is your biggest project.

So why don't you try to role play, go back to when you were a child?

When many of us did that?

Um, so for example, one student, uh, she was thinking

of being a human rights lawyer.

Not quite sure if that's kind of what she wants to do.

And so I challenged her to go a week, having the mindset

lens of a human rights lawyer.

When you're talking with, I mean, you probably tell folks pretending to be this.

Um, but what this does, it allows you to experiment at low risk, right?

Because obviously you're going to have to go to law school after this.

So is this something that you want to do?

Um, and then also get some self-talk there, uh, and, and,

and then talking to people.

So she did us for a week.

And she debated with her friends, her family members, she read

articles, she tended webinars.

She talked to a few human rights, uh, lawyers, um, what we call curious

conversations and what was interesting.

One thing that she brought up was that it really brought

her, her values of fairness.

Like, why is it that she wants to be a human rights lawyer?

Before she's like, well, you know, my, my parents want me to do this, but when

she was role-playing, putting on that hat, she's like, wait, yeah, I actually

do enjoy this because the, the importance of fairness is really important to me.

So that's one aspect of, of just role planning and trying

to imagine uh, futures.

The second hat that I've, that I have is I run recesses for, uh, for

staff and faculty at the university.

And so if you think about recesses, most of us, last time we had had recess,

this was probably in primary school.

Um, but there's a, there's a purpose for that, right?

It gives you a mental break, Uh, um, meeting new people.

And so the recesses I've designed like energizers and creative exercises.

Um, and one recess I had where I asked folks to re-imagine

their homes as a playground.

So I didn't tell folks, you know, what they were signing up for.

Um, so, you know, reimagine your couch as a slide, right?

Or your staircase as a play structure.

Putting folks in breakout rooms to meet new playmates, um, one activity that

we had where they had to build a toy using random things in their house.

So after the session, People, you know, there's humor, people were

laughing, people met new folks.

Um, I think with the pandemic, it's been hard for people to collide with

each other, um, and then just kind of feeling like, okay, that was fun.

And I can continue with my day.

And also these energizers you can do at home with your, you know, you

got other playmates in your house.

Um, so that's that, that was one, the example of designing

happenstance moments for, for folks.

And then the last, uh, example that the last hat is, um, the Build Out Loud

program, which I co-founded with, uh, my friend Marin, and it's a program for black

women, entrepreneurs and entrepreneurs, and we have designed a play workshop.

And one play workshop that has really stuck with folks

is unpacking place strategies.

So one question we ask is how did you like to play as a child, go

back in time and remember, how did you like to play as a child?

And so that give them more of a reflective time there.

So for some folks, they love to collect curate remixed.

Investigate.

Chances are the way that you played as a child is the same

way that you like to play now.

And so in that session, folks leave with a self care menu, right?

How are they going to integrate those play strategies throughout the week?

It could be really small and really big.

And we had a couple of women who actually created like play spaces in their homes.

Thank you for sharing those.

And I'd love to hear when people are showing up to these spaces.

So maybe we can take the example of the recesses you run for staff and faculty.

Do they know what to expect?

Do you find the same people come back several times or do you have

new people who are, they unsure?

Are they up for it?

Kind of, how much do you let them know what you're going to do with that?

Cause I think again, we have barriers or expectations or

discomfort around these ideas.

So what do you tell people before they turn up and how do they arrive and how do

you see the different ways of engaging?

yeah.

There's a balance, right?

Because I do like the idea of having something of an element of surprise.

Um, but at the same time, I like to design from a university.

It's called universal design for learning, right?

Making sure that you design an event or an experience of with all learners.

So for example, there are some activities where you'll, you might have to move.

So I ensure that I include.

In the pre Mel, there's going to be activity where there might be movement.

And actually now there's folks who are in the office, so you can't be running

around in the office versus at home.

You might feel more liberty to, to run around.

Um, and so, yeah, so when it comes to accessibility needs, that's

something that I keep in mind.

Um, and then just letting me know, like there are some creative exercises, and

to lean into the discomfort, right?

To lean into the discomfort.

And so when I do start off my presentation or, uh, recess, I,

I start off with the research.

I work in academia.

So what is the research behind play?

Uh, and yes, to lean into the discomfort.

Like you might feel awkward, it might feel weird.

Uh, you have a choice, you don't have to do everything, and then what I've

noticed is that yes, there are the same people that show up, but then there

are folks that tell their buddies, Hey, I did this event, you know, Yeah.

So it's been cool to, to, to see that.

Um, I love that point around acknowledging that it might feel uncomfortable.

It might not, you might not enjoy it elements of this.

Cause we don't enjoy everything we ever try and that's fine.

And it's yeah.

I think being kind of heads up that some bits you're going to like some bits you're

not, and if you feel uncomfortable or silly or like, you're not sure what you're

doing, you are not doing anything wrong.

And it doesn't mean this isn't for you.

It doesn't mean any of that.

You can lean into that and see it out.

So I love that acknowledgement.

Fantastic.

Now you're currently writing a book on black women and the power of play.

And you've said to me, before that it's an active resistance against

cultural stereotypes that you've experienced as a black woman.

Now I feel like even an entire episode, you wouldn't get to do that

topic justice, but I would love to hear you speak more about this and

understand how does our own sense of culture impact, how we approach play.

Oh, yes.

Oh, I can talk about this all day.

Um, so our sense of culture and identity impacts how we

approach and conceptualize play.

So.

In my thirties as a black woman, I have been doing a lot of

unlearning and learning and, um, and healing, as I mentioned earlier.

So many black women.

Um, and so I re I, I mentioned, I run a, uh, personal development program

for black women in the city, and they say the same thing that there's

this pressure to act, or to fit into this strong black woman stereotype.

Projecting as strong self sacrificing and free of emotion.

And this is something that we've seen our mothers, our aunties,

our grandmothers, um, portray.

And so what does that mean?

You know, a strong black woman can, can take on anything, could probably do it.

Well.

They're resilient.

They're taking.

Care of stuff at work outside of work, uh, and so what happens is this

burnout, burnout, this is what happens.

Um, having an intense drive to succeed and feeling an obligation to help others

and not asking for help, those can be very harmful for our health and, um, yeah, I

can go on about a lot of research on that.

And so knowing this, we have to mitigate these risks.

And what I like to say, you need to plan your joy.

The way that you plan, you know, your work stuff, family stuff,

you need to plan your joy.

And so for black women, creativity's a, is a form of rest.

It's actually an act of resistance in 2022, it takes courage to say yes to

rest and play, um, in a culture where exhaustion is seen as a status symbol.

How you doing?

Oh, I'm busy.

I'm busy, right?

Like, okay.

If that person's belief, they must be really.

And to me, exhaustion is, is an injury, right?

Exhaustion can like stunts one's imagination.

So most black women and men growing up, they would hear this a lot.

You got to work twice as hard, to get as half as far.

And we have been conditioned.

To attach our identity to work in production while navigating, you know,

microaggressions and racism, et cetera.

And then the other thing is we've also been conditioned

that we need to earn our rest.

You need to earn your leisure or I'll rest when I die.

And that's that shouldn't be the.

For anybody actually.

Um, so that's why I, say plays a really powerful act of resistance

against the cultural stereotype, because joy should be non-negotiable.

Everyone deserves joy.

This idea of connecting with your inner child is also an interesting thing.

Um, the New York Times had a great piece a few years ago on, uh, The

adult vacation of young black children.

And the piece does a really great job of explaining how for a lot of

black children, childhood, um, is taken away, whether it's by media.

School systems, uh, law enforcement.

And so when those kids become adults, it's interesting to see

where one needs to be healed.

And I'm actually going through this process as well through, through therapy.

Right.

Um, and I think that's the beauty of re-introducing play to folks that

may not have played as much, um, when they were, when they were younger.

And so that's why I feel like it's so, so important for, for folks to play.

And interestingly enough, I don't like to go.

Uh, lack mindset because I, I, do find that like I'm coming from a

Jamaican background and our culture is very playful music, arts color.

Like it's something that is innate in us.

um, and then when I watched tick talks and I see people on there, I'm

like, man, this is, this is why it's so addicting because it's, it's cool

to see people create and be playful.

Um, so it's just tapping back into something that we naturally have and

that perhaps something happened in our life that we're like, oh, okay.

A little pause, but it's okay to, to come back to it.

You said the kind of healing power of play and it being a

tool and a method of healing.

If you're comfortable talking about it, I'd love to hear more just

about how you find it healing and what, what brought that up for you?

I've realized that in life I've been, I've always been like an outcome driven person.

I think a lot of folks are right?

Go to university.

Get a job with a pension

Objective markers of success.

Exactly.

It's like all these metrics.

And what happens is you don't get to enjoy the journey.

So what play has done for me is it allows me to enjoy the journey with no outcomes.

And that's very hard for.

that's exactly what, how, where I struggle with it too.

Like I, I rationally and emotionally.

Buy into and believe about the magic of play and exploring new, new

experiences, trying things that you suck at, as you say, trusting the process.

And I, I get that.

And some days I'm really kind of good at doing that.

And other days I really struggle.

I really, I feel a lot of guilt, you know, around why am I doing this when

I've got all this work to be getting on with these people need me and yeah.

And I'm not good at that.

And it's the amount of unlearning to use the word used earlieris, is real.

it is, it is so real.

It is so real.

And it's probably another episode, like at what point in life do

we stop experimenting, right?

Like when we're kids, it's like, yeah, let's, let's do this, let's do that.

And then we go into school and then there's like standardized

testings and all of that.

And outcome-based, but it is healing because there's a lot

of reflection points for me.

Um, one that, you know, when I was younger, I used to do like weird things.

I used to talk to trees.

Yeah.

you should talk to trees.

And I always thought that was really weird.

And over the pandemic, doing a lot of like force walks and I'm like, oh, this

is why this is, this is soothing for me.

This is healing for me.

This is not weird.

Like, this is just, you know, what my soul needs.

And I've, I've always had this when I was a kid.

No one else was doing.

Well I don't know.

Maybe there's a listener out there who used to talk to trees, but that

was just the way that I like to play.

Some people had imaginary friends.

I had trees.

And can kind of continuing on from this.

Um, but back to the book, do you have a title yet or is that sort

of work in progress when I'm

It's still a work in progress, but, um, the word playbook is there.

Okay, Awesome.

And what would you love?

To make happen with that book.

Like who do you want it to find its way to?

Well, what do you want it to do?

Or what's your, are you kind of putting it out there and it's going to take it

some beautiful journey in the university.

Like I want it to do this.

Like, how do you feel about

I love this question, because that was the first question I asked myself.

Because when it?

comes to books, right?

Like you people write books, obviously for folks to read it for some people

it's like, oh, I want to be a bestseller.

I'm writing this book for my mom, right?

And I mean, obviously I would love for other people to read it, But I, I, I would

love for her to digest this material the way that she would like to digest it.

But I've, I've seen so much, you know, what I was talking about earlier about

like the strong black woman, um, but also she gave me so much as well.

So it is it's for my mom.

It's for my mom.

And for, for, for women.

Trying to climb up that ladder, whatever that ladder is.

Um, and just reminding themselves like, hey, you deserve ease.

You deserve joy.

You don't need to earn it.

That's your birthright.

I love that.

What's your mother's name?

Sharon.

Oh, Sharon.

Lucky you it's a beautiful gift coming your way.

I love that.

So how do you see the role and importance of embedding imagination

and play to disrupt the status quo?

How we're doing things now we've touched on it so far, but tell

us more about that and the power it has to disrupt the status.

it allows us to take a pause and rethink systems.

As I mentioned earlier, I think we're focused so much on the

outcomes, which is important.

You know, it's, it's really important.

And sometimes there's time constraints.

But imagination in play allows us to encourage wild ideas, defer judgment,

asking how might we questions?

And I think the status quo.

Is founded on predictability because as humans, we love that most humans, right.

Yeah.

Play provides an opportunity for us to try something new and see where it goes.

And that's why it's different because the status quo is like,

we've done this, it's worked.

Maybe it hasn't worked.

We don't have the time.

We don't have the budget.

Uh, but play and imagination, uh, provide some doors to possibilities.

Yeah, the predictability point is so true.

I think the illusion of control, I think that we like to have that we think we can

control things and we can predict things.

And I think this is sometimes where.

Fear around player that has comfort around play, especially when you start

thinking about bringing it into the workplace, which is, you know, a great

price, but also quite a big hurdle to get over sometimes thinking about how

can we integrate play in our work.

It's often this idea of, well, what happens if we play more?

Does anyone know, could even control that?

And no, we can't.

And I think there's something that is quite deeply uncomfortable about that,

that if we were to play more, what might happen and, and, and who controls that.

So I think that's often where the fear stems.

And what do you think the conditions for play are.

So what needs to be in place for play to happen, especially in,

again, the kind of group context or professional group context, where you

are thinking, okay, you know, I'm, I'm, at work or I'm around colleagues.

I am thinking about how I'm coming across.

I don't feel completely free to use it.

What, whatever the about play being synonymous with freedom for you.

So what do you think needs to be in place in these, in these contexts

for play to happen and flourish?

So as a learning experience designer, I think this is an important question

because when you're designing experiences and you can quantify

experiences in whatever could be a meeting, it could be a retreat, it

could be a discussion, but you need to been intentional with the conditions.

How should you design experiences where people feel safe is one point, point.

And then more importantly for me, I want to feel like an appetizer where

people will want to do it again.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So the first thing I think the first condition is, is his mindset.

I have learned for adults and it's quite strange, but it's, it's, it's true from

my experience that you need to grant permission to be playful in different

spheres, you can be playful at work.

Um, so in my sessions, I've used affirmations, because I think

there's power, you know, in words.

So, you know, plays a gift to share with others.

My creativity helps me connect to the world.

I like to start off, um, with them and tell people if they, if they,

they feel comfortable just to say it to themselves, because that's kind of

healing that, that inner inner child.

And then reminding adults, um, that the impulse to play is innate.

It is in us, and it can be developed.

And the last thing with mindset is that you are probably

doing playful things already.

the way you cook the way you commute to work the way you dress.

You are probably doing playful things.

So how can.

No, do it more in work.

So that's the first, the mindset.

Number two, uh, environment.

There needs to be an environment where people can feel safe to

experiment in the workplace.

And when I think of play or creativity, there has to be like a judgment free zone.

And we typically hear companies say, They want innovative ideas or

they value creativity, their values or mission statement, whatever.

But are they designing spaces for folks to innovate, to experiment and to play?

And more importantly, are you acknowledging and rewarding

folks for this process?

Yes.

Rather than just the output of great ideas that are relevant and game changing,

you know, because that's not going to be every idea or even many of the ideas,

the process of getting stuff that's coming out with stupid ideas that aren't

relevant and falling flat on your face.

Trying stuff, presenting, iterating, evaluating.

Yes, the process, not the outcome.

Are you rewarding for that?

Exactly.

Uh, and then the last point, so I talked about mindset, number one, uh,

two environment, and then three choice.

I think I talked about this earlier.

So I think plays a spectrum.

I, and that's what I love about is like the way that I play, the way that

I love to play may be different from the way that you would like to play.

Play can be loud.

Play can be quiet, can be individual.

It can be the group.

It can be indoors.

It'd be outdoors, can be talking to a tree or playing with Lego bricks.

It could be different for everyone, and that is the beautiful thing.

So you want to create conditions where people have choice.

This provides like a universal design approach to it.

Especially for those who haven't played in a war.

And like, I was going back to that appetizer feeling of, okay,

this feels yucky, but I'll, I know I do like sketching, or I

like playing with post-it notes.

There needs to be a fine balance though, because I think sometimes

it's nice to get people out of their comfort zone, but providing

choices, also a great opportunity to, to design conditions for that.

And you mentioned the second factor around environment and the question

of whether organizations are creating spaces to innovate in play and engaging

creative ideas and just try things.

Do you think.

With your learning experience, design expertise.

Does that need to be carved out as either a physical space you can

go to, or probably increasingly in this world, a virtual space, but

carving out intention any other time?

Or, or, or a space in some way for this to happen rather than hoping it just

as interwoven in your every day, every meeting, how you're showing up, do

you think it can be done in that kind of, oh, at any point we can innovate

and be creative or do you think it does need these parameters and these

boundaries where it's like, no, in this space and in this time we do this,

I think there's there's room for both there's room for both.

From a universal design approach you want to design for all learners.

There are folks who, if they walk into a room and they have not, they have no

idea what's going on, they may run out.

At the same time.

You need to have a facilitator that?

could, you know, you're not going to put just, I mean, it'd

be an interesting experiment.

I feel like it'd be like a.

Um, a great experience with that, just to have folks in a room without no, um,

outcomes, but from my experience, you know, when you're designing, you know,

a gathering or meeting, it's nice to have some outcomes, like, you know, by

the end of this session, people should either feel or be able to do something.

And so you're going to create activities that really support those

outcomes, but also have space for magic, have room for magic, just in

case things go, you know, sideways.

That's fun.

That's okay.

As a facilitator, you should be comfortable with that as well.

Again, the kind of unknown and unpredictability that always the edge and

you can't control, what's going to happen.

So you've already mentioned a few lovely kind of practices that you use.

Um, but I'd love to hear if you could share either an imagination

or a playful practice that you have used in your work with these various

different communities that, um, our listener could try themselves.

So I'm a big fan and you probably know this one, the yes and.

It comes from improv, right?

The yes.

And philosophy.

So you can use this in a meeting, or you can use this as just, you

know, an icebreaker, but it's kinda nice to use it in a meeting.

So typically what happens in meetings is the introverts don't pipe up because

they're afraid that folks will dismiss their ideas or there's that one.

person that keeps on talking.

They're afraid of, you know, hearing any of these statements.

Great idea, but this is not going to work great idea, but we have no budget for

this great idea, but it won't be approved.

So having a yes and, in I called it a mini meeting, you could do it like

for 15 minutes within a meeting.

Come with a challenge and ask people to build upon each other's ideas

always say yes and build, build.

Build, build, build.

Rather than pointing out the possible risks or failures.

I love this because there's no constraints.

And it's also nice because it includes humor.

Humor is a big piece of, of, of play and there might be aha moments, right.

There might be a hot moments.

If you don't want to do it, work-related you could just start a story this weekend.

I did this and then just build, build upon it.

So that's a really good one.

Uh, I know you only asked for one.

There's

Always say for more always say for more,

Um, I think a simple exercise, especially for those who are back in

the office is like moving things around.

Like movement, like moving chairs around.

It's funny how, when you're not sitting in your usual spot with different

perspectives, you will gain, um, so that's a very simple, you know, simple exercise.

And then finally, I'm a big fan of making your learning visible.

Like whatever's in your head, whatever's in your head, visible to others.

So.

Providing items.

You can have a meeting where you have, like, I love aluminum aluminum foil,

because you just do so much with it.

Uh, Lego bricks.

Play-Doh Um, I think sometimes we think that the brain does all the work, which

is, you know, does a lot of the work, but it's funny how, when you start

building things, your hands and your brain will connect your start building,

like with Play-Doh like, I have no idea what this is, but then, oh, this, this

is looking like a dog with three legs.

Okay, cool.

Let's go with this, right?

Um, so providing items.

Where you might ask for it like me, you might have a challenge and ask

folks to build something, a solution using the items in front of you.

So making your learning visible, uh, as a really great idea as well.

I love those three fantastic tips and kind of what I love

about these is that they are.

Anyone can try them.

That's what we're trying to do is kind of, you don't need

to be an expert facilitator.

You don't need to be in a playful environment already.

You can take these, just, I love that the, the, the, uh,

the foil cause you're so right.

You can make any kinds of shapes, a little 3d structures

and the connection between yeah.

Your hands and your mind and how they can speak to each other.

I love that.

So thank you.

We're at the end of our lovely conversation, is there anything.

I haven't asked you or invited out from you in our chat today

that you'd like to share.

I've been thinking about the word play a lot.

Good.

it's, it's my word of a year and I'm writing a book and sometimes

I wonder like our folks, when they hear the word play, many folks

think of child like child player.

But I'm like, I wonder if we swap the word, play with engagement.

Like in the workplace, like what would like, would that be different?

Would that be different?

I'd be personally, I love the word play.

I don't think we should swap it, but when I think about employee

engagement, that's I think of play.

I completely agree.

The amount of conversations I've had in the context of Playfilled myself

and Pauline, we'll, we'll talk about play and the person will say, oh,

I love what you're talking about.

Just, just quit something different.

Just call it something that, we already are talking about, and we're already

comfortable with, and you know, it's already in our discourse about work.

Just because it look different.

And you know, of course it's tempting sometimes, but I'm kind of quite

obstinate about it because I love the word play like you said, I'm like, no,

no, we, we, we need to bring this, this word back into our lives and we need

to confront all the discomfort that's around it and try and dismantle that.

But.

A bit loud and proud about it, I guess.

So, but it's interesting that I've had similar thoughts of so many things we

already do and talk about and feel is important, you could say that's played,

but we just have the word itself it has some way to go to being embraced, I think.

But, um, I'm up for the challenge.

We need more, more view because it's, it's so important.

It's so important to, want to say fight that battle, but it's important

to have play, um, you know, in the workplace, outside the workplace.

And I think creating a space or a time at work, whether it's 10 minutes, 30 minutes

a day, to get folks out of their routines.

Is magical.

It's it's great.

You should.

Um, and so play allows you to do that, right?

How can I have 30 minutes, 15 minutes of an element of surprise at work, right?

Like I was saying earlier, maybe change the space, move the

chairs, maybe add items, right?

Maybe start a meeting, asking folks to, you know, do show and tell.

I love when I was younger.

I love show and tell maybe, Yeah.

that's an assignment.

Asked folks to bring an item from their home.

That means a lot to them or a hobby that they're, they're doing a lot

of folks have developed hobbies over the past couple of years.

Right.

So just those little things doesn't have to be too, too, too big, too big.

Brilliant.

Thank you so much.

So Lucy, what came up for you and you listened to my lovely

conversation with Stacey-Ann?

Oh, it was such a lovely conversation.

That was like the main thing I was like, oh, I just couldn't tear myself away.

Um, I think.

I really like the idea of players freedom and as a way of reconnecting

and integrating our inner child.

and that idea that as play, when we play as adults, you know, there will

be a thread that leads us back to our players' children And how, how

interesting it is to like try something from your childhood in your adult body.

Absolutely.

I love the sense of intention she brought to this idea of play.

Whether it was, you know, play, being her word of the year, or then choosing

a form of play for the month where she was like, I'm just gonna explore this

form of play and talking about how terrible she was at her chosen form of

play in the who heaping as an example.

But I just loved seeing that beginner's mindset.

Really at the four with her.

And she was just so intentional about bringing it into her life.

I also, you know, this idea of play and rest as resistance and a

birthright, particularly for black people and black women were strength.

Is what is expected and exhaustion is a status symbol.

And you know how she talked about the power of play as a healing tool and

the kind of courage that is required to do that and to go against the grain.

And it made me think like, you know, as facilitators, we have such a

responsibility to be aware of these things and aware of, you know, people's

history with play and mindful of that when we are creating and holding spaces.

Couldn't agree more.

I love how she evolved the conversation.

It felt beyond its sort of surface level benefits, which

are plentiful and brilliant, but into its deeper ability to heal.

And she was talking about, you know, plaing a form of rest to use your word.

That's, that's our birthright.

We don't need to earn it.

And this idea of players, a form of resistance, I think that.

She was tapping into this kind of huge power of play that sits

beneath the surface level view.

When we think about play being, you know, it's a form of banter, it's a form of

just seeing people, you know, visually laughing and joking and using humor like

that is a kind of play, but there's this.

Amazing invisible powerless.

It's beneath it, which we miss out.

Or when we have a bit of a one dimensional view of what playfulness must look

like, um, this, this idea of a kind of, it's a form of resistance under, under

that surface level under the water.

Um, I felt like, yeah, we needed more than more than the time we had to unpack.

Yeah, absolutely.

And you know, and when thinking about creating safe spaces, I thought what

she was saying about the importance of signaling was so important, you know,

like letting people know what to expect.

If people, you know, have been adultified as children, um, signaling to people,

what it will mean, like acknowledging that it might be uncomfortable and,

and holding that and being with that, and also drawing on research.

So, you know, that people can feel cognitively comfortable.

What are the benefits of this?

What's it gonna help us do?

Um, and being really intentional to use your word, um, with the conditions

for how you create spaces for play.

I was listening back on our conversation, I had this feeling that

she, her two feet were in two worlds.

It was like one foot was really grounded in today.

And so much of her work was kind of relevant in the here and the now in

the present, whether it's, you know, designing those recess spaces for

her colleagues, helping her students explore kind of big decisions.

So very relevant and grounded in today, but it felt like the other

foot was planted in a different world that was made up of this kind of

imagination that she talked about.

And this world of.

Has no hope and optimism and just imagining beyond our today.

And I just felt, I dunno, that kind of, it felt so expansive that she wasn't just

living in this kind of conceptual land.

She was living very much in today and using play today.

But with this kind of expansive, imaginative other land that she was

kind of building in her in her mind.

And I love that that straddling of both bid spaces.

Yeah.

And she said at one point leave space for magic.

And I was like, yeah, that's so exciting.

I also loved her invitation to like plan your joy.

You know, like actually take space for it and plan what you're gonna

do and when you're gonna do it, and consciously carve out time for that.

I think that's really important in a world where, you know, we're all

running so fast and working hard to make conscious space for it.

And that, that theme and that thread of being very conscious and very

clear about things I found kept coming up in her, in her reflections.

And the fact that she, when I said, you know, tell me about the book

and, and, and who were writing it for and the impact you wanted to have.

And she just said, I'm writing it for my mom.

I rang it for Sharon and there's something about the specificity and

the clarity she had of who she was trying to communicate with and what

she was trying to say with that work.

That really touched me, and I found that really inspiring just to think yeah.

That, that specificity of who she's talking to and what

she's trying to do, I love that

Yeah, that was amazing.

I've got goosebumps.

Anything else that came up for you?

Talking to trees?

She's like,

I'm all about talking to trees.

Let's talk to more trees.

Thank you so much for listening today.

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