Patrick Pouponneau joins Jamie-Leigh in conversation to explore ideas around place-based belonging within diasporic identity, carrying our ancestors with us as a tool for healing, and how being Black in really White places can hinder the process. A conversation which ultimately inspired Patrick to write a powerful poem to further explore his own connection to belonging, which is also featured in this audio story.

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SPEAKERS

Jamie-Leigh, Patrick, carla

Welcome to On Belonging, an audio series to connect us. On Belonging explores why so many of us are feeling called to find a deeper sense of belonging, whether with our ancestors or to land where we live, and beyond.

These powerful stories and conversations are an invitation into the lives and landscapes of the guests’ worlds, offering pathways towards remembering and finding more belonging.

The following is a conversation with Patrick Pouponneau. So Patrick is a project manager, activist, organizer, and artist based in Canada. He is passionate about using his skills and talents to make a positive impact on his community and beyond. Patrick has worked extensively in the areas of homelessness, mental health, and addiction, advocating for marginalized individuals and striving to uplift those in need. In addition to his work as a social advocate, Patrick is also a talented writer and poet, with a particular interest in hip hop. He often uses his art to express his own experiences and perspectives, as well as to shed light on important social issues. With his many accomplishments and talents, Patrick is a powerful force for positive change in his community and beyond.

So for me, belonging is kind of one of the best sauces in life, you know, you can't have a proper dish that a good sauce, you can but like, why? you know? And it's really the result of connection, right? And that connection, like from top to bottom, like any kind of facet of humanity, you want to put that to, from physical to spiritual, like it's, it's a safety, right, like we're built to be together to connect. And then once you have that safety, then and then it's freedom time, you get the bandwidth to fully express your human experience.

(Poem)

Enough waiting, let's get to it.

(Poem)

On Belonging,

(Poem)

Loneliness is fatal.

We’re made to be connected. For we are connected. The earth is a closed circuit.

We branch out.

To be seen is proof we exist. It’s a survival tactic. Together we evolved.

Love is the strongest emotion.

The energy it contains glues galaxies together. Joy, pleasure, and wonder are its children.

Just like us.

Carbon based life.

I can feel my ancestors’ hands on my shoulders.

When the heat moves in, under your skin, you know you’ve earned it.

Glowing. Hot proximity to the source.

Star power, please, cook me.

There is no nap more immaculate, than the ones plundered in your radiance.

Put some freckles on this face party.

And when I need to love you different,

Hot sand hold me, as I float off to the ocean.

You did the job we needed, not what we thought we wanted.

A softer practice; a perfect wave signals seductively,

And then its bowed heads first into the abstract, Gaia subconscious.

You hold your breath to dream,

For when you emerge,

Getting what you need to stay alive,

There is a pure moment,

Of being here.

An instrument in use.

Because my heart keeps a rhythm older than I’ll ever be.

Sharing spirit to genome with the choir that sings this song called life.

The drums drive me wild.

It’s a love that transcends.

It’s my mother, and her people, and the generations of love making,

It’s my father, and the legacy, of healers liberating.

It’s the sunny shores, and the green infinite,

It’s the path that I’m aligned with,

Guidance and sublime gifts.

So, witness, all the laughter,

The meals, the dishes after,

Come to us as we gather.

Hold us through the disasters,

We’re still dancing on your shoulders.

Let’s dance together.

I love to hold you closer.

x

Time and space are a colonial joke.

The calendar and the map are just technologies to remaster.

I plan on folding things together.

You’d be forgiven if you mistake me for three baby pandas in a trench coat, cause I’m coming to you, and there’s going to be so many hugs. Cause I love you, and I’ve missed you. And it’s really important to me that you know that. I think fondly of you often. I remember the last time I was there, and we were just cruising. There was some pop on the radio, just filling the space so softly. We were all so comfortable as the summer sun warmed the side of our faces heading home down the highway. The silence with you is so easy, we were just happy, we were together. Being beside you is enough for me. I stopped chasing the big moments long ago. The hands in the air, front of the rollercoaster, aha ladidah, hold me while the ship goes down type of energy. It freed me up to just be here now, in this moment. Whole and complete.

So, I’m going to get up way too early, take a taxi while it’s still dark, chase the head of the snaking line ups, take my shoes off, put my shoes back on, and breathe recycled air for the next 13 hours. I need to see you. I need to open these arms up and welcome you in. Get you as close to this heart as I possibly can. I’ve added an extra set up pushups in preparation. Because in that embrace,

In that perfect set of circumstances,

I belong.

Do you think it's possible to find belonging on your own?

Oh, absolutely. Like, we are alive. Connection has to happen. doesn't have to happen. But I think it happens, you know, externally, like you're reaching out. But in that act of reaching, it comes back like you are doing it you are that connection. So I think, you know, inherently we're connected to reality. You know, there's actually one of my favorite ones is like there's like this Buddhist and I'm going to completely butcher this. But one of the one of my favorite Buddhists, and our lessons, I guess is that, you know, like, look at the shirt that you're wearing, and how many people touched it. You know, I know what it took to get that shirt on, that you're wearing right now there. So I think it's totally possible to have connection to anything that exists because you exist. So you're in, you're in it together.

Maybe within that, like relationship to another isn't explicitly like a living, breathing person. Right. Like I think that's kind of these deeper conversations that we're poking at, in this On Belonging series. It's like, your relationship to your ancestors, past, future, whatever direction, right? And a way of being in connecting to, like, maybe not just like the world, but like, like, what's bigger, or whatever.

That's exactly it, you know, I think you had a right there, it's belonging to being, belonging is just something that's ubiquitous, it's omnipresent, you know, and I think our relationship to that, you know, is, is so much more pervasive and everything that we do. And it satisfies the spirit in a way that like nothing else can, like, you take a look at, you know, any of our poke that trying to understand this. And it all features on community and belonging and connection. And, and the clarity of that.

Yeah, it's cool.

It's super cool, like, and that's the thing too, but it not only is it like, it's cool, but it's also very warm. You know, like I you know, in thinking about belonging, just in general, like it like it, there's a visceral feeling me when I when I contemplate it, or when I when I attune myself to it, it's just this feeling of warmth, and like alignment and correctness, that I feel in my body. You know, when it's like, Hey, I'm built to be together in relationship to everything, like it's never not on and becoming more aligned with that, 9t's just like, oh, it's fantastic.

And, it's not even.. I'm gonna preface this with like, you know, we were, we were chatting before this recording about, like, the sort of cosmic grief moments or cosmic, something going on that feels bigger, and like, you know, yeah, it's so warm when you can be in that relationship. And also, that idea of belonging can also live in those. I don't want to call them like, dark places, but like in suffering and stuff, like if you are not suffering alone, or when you see that you're not suffering alone, like it's a lot easier to, yeah like, not lose a sense of yourself in that suffering and grief.

Because, you know, we are human beings, we all go through it, like, you know, and it's so funny that like, you know, just the ego involved in feeling alone. You know what I mean? like, there's so much happening here like how small are we? And how collective are we? You know, like, you know, I had a flight the other day I'm just like looking at all the little lights twinkling, when you're flying over town and I'm like, how many lives are feeling exactly what I'm feeling right now? and, and are together with me in this like how many people's you know experienced death today? How many people experience birth today? How many people you know, and for me to think that I'm alone in that is kind of absurd. Yeah that default where it's like you want, like, you feel so alone and like that loneliness of not being .. I think that I think that loneliness is, I guess that yearning for the ultimate togetherness, you know, where it's like, hey, you know, being at peace, the idea of, let's take an afterlife, for example. It's about connecting, and it's about returning to the all, you know, and for us to think that our little, you know, matrix brains are the All is hilariously short sighted. Like, it's just, that's not what's happening here by any metric that you want to, you know, study by, by any language you want to draw on,.

I like also, that you have a way of. you specifically have a way of like, literally not being alone in moments where you might feel alone, which is about like, you feeling connection to your ancestors. Do you want to like, share how that might come up in this context?

Yeah, it's, I don't want to put it. I like to think of my heart as a drum. Because my whole existence is a fucking party. Like, that's what that's what it is. Like, like celebration is, so is the best thing in life. And I'm like, How do I centre my life around that? You know, how do I inherently as a core value as a virtue, bring in partying and celebration? Like how do I do that? And so it was really interesting to me, you know. And let me actually let him let me make it real for a moment, okay? So my mom passed away, right? And my mother is, was an incredible is an incredible woman, like, not only was she a really good friend to me, she was also just this miracle, just this, this energy, this light that moves through the world, right. And I remember when she died, because also part of her life, she was for a big part of her life, like she was a palliative care nurse. And she was also a psychic medium, you know, like, I'd wake up at night as a child, and my mom would be channeling in another language and trying to write things down in like, like ancient Mandarin and stuff, like these are moments that I remember. So when she passed and also to, like, you know, she was Irish descended, like, grew up in a lot of poverty. You know, she went through a lot of suffering, like more than her fair share, let's put it that way. So I remember when she passed, I was like, I didn't want to bother her. You know? I was just like, I was, you know, I'm like, you're at peace now mom, like, just for once, chill. Like, I don't want anything from you, I'm gonna remember you and celebrate you and like, love you in the way that I want to love you. But like, honestly, you're off-- lady, take a break, like, just relax, just go be starstuff or whatever happens. I love you, you know that I love you. You know, but death is for the living. Like, go enjoy yourself, please. And then I think over time, and like, with some therapy, it was more that, you know, and kind of changing my relationship to my ancestors and realizing that like, that was a very linear way of me thinking, right? Like, she's still traveling this line through time and space. And I'm like, I'm like, Nah, it was actually quantum physics that got me on that, you know, like, the particles can exist in the same space in the same time, or, you know, are joined. And I'm like, oh, like, that changes things. And then so I started inviting all my ancestors into my life. Right? And it's just like this... And I remember in some real moments, where I called upon them, you know, to like, witness me, or selfish like not selfishly, but like for some strength. And I remember feeling the energy of just so much love, generational love, generational strength, generational support, in that moment. And in developing that practice, now it's just like, I can show my favorite auntie a cool rock that I've sat down on the beach. You know what I mean? I can, I'm present with them, and they're present with me. And we're celebrating together. So really, I'm having my whole, like a whole secret psychic, family reunion cookout at all times.

I love it. Oh my gosh.

And I do love it, it's great. Because it's like, I'll be walking down the street. And something funny will just occur to me. And then I'll just like, whisper it to like my uncle or something, you know, or, you know, or do the right thing like returning the shopping cart when nobody's looking and being like, Hey, that's a lesson for you, my baby nieces, great granddaughter, you know, like, just putting things in the ether and being like, okay, acknowledging that there is so much more than I don't know. And playing with it. And having fun with that and feeling the love and feeling the connection and knowing that no matter where I am, like, I'm a branch of this really, really cool tree.

And I want to talk about place based things and maybe, you know, building off of what you were just talking about, but like you being in right now Vancouver, your ancestors being from different places, you even like being born elsewhere. How you are cultivating belonging, wherever you are?

Yeah, that's that's a really good question. You asked very good questions.

I just like totally threw all my prep questions out the window. Sorry.

No, I love those questions, right? OK, here's an example. Right? So I'm flying across North America. I'm coming back from Florida. And you're on a plane for a long time. Like, it's not like there's not a direct flight. So you're like, you hop here, hop here, hop here....

You have a sister in Florida, right?

Yeah, my sister is in Floridia. And I remember getting off in Kentucky. And I was so tired of you got to plane. Like, I just need to get outside for a second. I had a long enough layover where I'm like, okay, cool. This is feasible. And I went outside, and I felt the heat. And I just took off my shoes, and I stood on the grass. And I'm like, Ah, yes. And I felt this sense of relief. Because in a very real way, like, human beings, we're animals like we're not separate from nature. Like we're not as like as cute as I am in my apartment with on my computer with like, my my cologne and the soap under my armpits. Because it's socially unacceptable to smell like I'm, like a hairless monkey, like, I'm still animal, you know what I mean? So I think that by like, rooting ourselves in the moment, you know, feeling the earth and being present to that connection, it promotes a different sense of belonging, it reminds you that like, hey, ant you're not separate from any of this, you're not that important. And that's what's really important. But I think specifically because I love it out here. I'm not gonna lie, like, I was so sad. I'm in Florida, I'm at the beach, I'm living my happy place. Everything's great place called Singer Island. By the way, if anybody's listening to that, and is heading out of Florida, it's right out of West Palm Beach. It's Happy Land. But I'm like, I'm so bummed. I'm like, Oh, I gotta go back to the winter. And then all my friends are like, sending me pictures of the like, the great Snowmageddon and I'm like, but then I got back and I'm like, oh, no, like, I've never taken a fresher breath than the air here. I've never like the sheer scale and beauty and kind of like the solemn awe of the land here is something that has kept me here for long enough to make it part of me. And it was really interesting, like, being of service and on this land, right, because I'm not from here. And I've built a life here, you know. And so, in coming here and in serving the people and in serving the land and understanding, you know, bit by bit lesson by lesson moment by moment, how, you know, indigeneity really weaves itself through here, like that's added such a richness to my life. Because there's a solidarity between, you know, my Black experience, you know, being part of a diasporic culture, having been stolen from my land, to being with people that are brown, that have had their land stolen from them. You know what I mean? So in that solidarity, there was kind of like, once again, like a place of connection, a place of belonging, and then learning how to do things in like, you know, a good way Right, and then and then feeling like the ritual and the ceremony like, especially when it comes to the harder things, the grieving, you know, the lessons and the community that I felt around sacred fires, you know, and having, you know, I used to have long dreadlocks and just having my dreadlocks smelled like smoke, for a long time has really given my life, this kind of new richness and this new calmness where it's not about, it's about how you're growing. It's not about what you're up to, and doing, like, you know, I wanted to conquer the world at one point, and now I just like I look up to trees, and I'm like, you guys got to figure it out. You can just reach for the sun, you know, bend as you will, things are gonna happen, and like, just be a part of this and enjoy all of that, enjoy those moments. And it like I would never have gotten that if it wasn't for, you know, the people that were walking beside me on my journey, especially here on this land. So like, that's something that I really bring to it. And it allows you to kind of synchronize, or syncopate with just the energy or the vibration of the people and land and it's just this different rhythm, this different tempo that you move with out here. And I didn't really get that until like I stood with Indigeneity and ended in indigeneity in those circles, and they taught me how you know how to take my shoes off and just connect.

(POEM)

We're made to be connected for we are connected, the Earth is a closed circuit

Curious how much connection you have to like the culture of your ancestors, so either Haitian or Irish kind of..

Yo, I will I will. I have such a wonderful disdain for colonialism. Like you have no idea like it brings me joy to actively subvert that system. Any opportunity.

That's from your ancestors.

Oh my God, no, no that, you know, it was very interesting. Because, you know, during the work, you know, working in homeless encampments and stuff like that. It's pretty intense stuff. And the way that I was doing it was what I was doing it in a really intense way. And I remember once I had to, like I forced myself to take a break. There was so much anger, so much anger in me, and like I'm not an angry person, I don't consider myself to be, but like, anger was what was real for me for a very, very long time. And in having the space and the time to work through that, to bring love to that to integrate it into my life with love. And not to get rid of it. But to experience that anger was an important part. But at the end of it, which was super interesting, at the center of it, the secret little nucleus of what this was, was a cold rage. And I'm like, that's the pilot light for the engine in my heart. It's a cold rage at this level of fuckery. That causes so much suffering. And it's like, I don't know how to explain this other than to say it's a very peaceful rage. It knows what it is. And it's something that's, that's connected and is very funny. Like, just looking at the absurdity of it. Like it makes me laugh every day. So I know I get that from my ancestors, I know I get my love of celebration from them, I know that I get my-- it's just everything that I am, comes from, is part of that lineage. Like, that's so real to me like it's more than you know. Actually, let me like, do something that's very real, like part of my professional practice, is I want every space that I'm a part of the energy that I'm bringing to that space is how I feel when I'm on my Auntie's couch. When when I'm in her home, the family home and there's a smell to cooking and the cousins are coming by and it's just like, this chaotic mess of me and my family and it's all so comfortable. That's something I do my best to bring to every interaction that I have, because it's one of the greatest things I've known. And really bringing the ancestors into that too. It's like they're there too, and it just becomes this kind of infinite resonance space. So I think that I don't get that unless I'm from a people that I've had to do everything with nothing for a long time. I don't think that I get that resilience, I don't think that I get that drive. I don't think that I get that, that joy or that swagger or that rhythm without them.

It's really hard in this world of like, Who do you belong to, like identity politics, all of these things to be like, you know, I belong in a different way, even if I don't know the traditions, right? Yeah, I can't be erased, like, I'm still this whole being that's right here. And my way of connecting to people and bringing community together is from those ancestors, like you're saying is from? Yeah, like, it's in my bones. It's in my blood. It's in my being. And it sounds like it's in yours too. And because I don't know, the songs or the language or whatever, doesn't mean that they're not me and I'm not them. You know, it's such a nuanced, like, beautiful thing to hear you say like, the way that you bring your ancestors forward is like, like the joy that just like lives in your heart. And it's actually like a seed of cold rage that blooms it all.

It's like, look, we're not separate from this. Also too, and like, it's so empowering. Just to be like, okay, cool. Whatever goes goes. Like, there was this time, like, I'll never forget, like, everybody wanted me in a picture. This happened, like in Victoria when I when I first moved over, and I'm like, Man, everybody wants to take pictures with me. Like, what's up with that? And then it like dawned on me. You know, like, Oh, my God, I was dating this girl this one time, and then her best friend, goes "get in the picture that'll look so good." And was just like, and I was like, wha? Yeah, I'm going somewhere in like, I don't know, Abbotsford or something. And I'm like, Oh, this is all the way fucked up. Okay. But like, now I can laugh at it. Because I'm like, Y'all, my people were stolen and came across the Middle Passage, like, what kind of board room shit are you gonna bring over here that's gonna compare to that. Like, that's where I'm coming from, you know, but I definitely trust me, I get it. I really do. And like, let's let you know, just a spin off of that. Like, I had to make a decision when I moved to Victoria. Right? This is like, 2007 you know? So like, before we had, you know, electricity and took horses everywhere. And it was like, I had to make a decision about my Blackness. Because I'm from Ottawa. Right? I'm, you know, biracial. Which is funny too, because like biracial is like my brother was talking about, he's like, Yeah, man. It's like my whiteness. And I'm like, like, what? Like,

You are not separate pieces of yourself.

No, and I'm just like, and even then, like brass tacks. Like, what good has it done you? You know what I mean? Like, has that gotten you into the country club? Like, did that get your did you get you know, did you ...Like, are you a nipple baby? Like, what's like, how are you benefiting from anywhere? So back in Victorian 2007, and like, it was just this wonderful thing, because I love Victoria as a city like, Guys will cross the street like drunken, older Middle Eastern men and be like, Yo, do you know, like, Joe from Africa, like, Yo, that was my guy. And I'm like, no man I don't know, Joe from Africa, but like, what's becoming very apparent to me is like you, you haven't had a lot, because of the homogeneity of that of that city. It's like, you haven't had a lot of experiences with like, Black people. Right? And like, I'm not going to take that personally. You know what I mean, like, you're coming to here out of love trying to connect with me trying to belong is like human beings with like, racial differences. And so I had to make a decision. I'm like, alright, well, let's be Black, then. You know what I mean? Like, let let me be extrovertely Black, I will be an accessible Black person for you. And not in a way of like, I'm prolotatizing. Or you know what I mean? You know what I mean? It isn't like kooky Wednesdays, but it was the fact that I'm like, I'm not gonna tone it down. And if you have questions, and it's respectful, then I have no problem doing that because I understand that like, yeah, like, we're a true minority here and like, if I'm going to, if I'm going to be put in that box, then I'm going to take that space and throw fucking party in it. So you know, that's why we made the in this is big up to my girl, Yolanda Johnson, who runs Who did your Hair in fernwood square? And we got together and we made like, an award show. Because that yeah, it was called Making History and it was all about getting all the Black business owners together to network. Right and to have community. And yeah, it was crazy. We did that for like six, seven years and like we started like the Fernwood Community Center Basement, where it was just like it was a cookout and we give away some awards to like this really big deal that the mayor had to be at every year like doing the ballroom at the Grand Marriott year after year, and like getting sold out like quickly. And it was wonderful to create that space to own that space to share that space. And what I didn't realize at the time, but was to see the kids of the community grow up up in that space, where they have where they're in Black rooms. And then you know, that's my, you know, that's my friend's daughter, when we started, she was four years old now. She's like, 14 years old. And she's like, Hey, you old heads aren't moving fast enough on this Black Lives Matter. You know, like, protests, like I got ideas. And I'm like, run it, run it. So I hear what you're saying. And like, I think once again, like I'm just kind of at this place in my life, where it's about, you know, that integration of things like I'm not here to fight it anymore. either. It's coming in for a hug, or it's passing me respectfully with a high five and then like, carry on. But I'm not like nobody gets to define me. Nobody gets to define how I am spending this life. Nobody gets to find any of that shit. It's all influenced by like, so much good generational love. Like, I know what it's like when I'm in when I'm in key when I'm in tune. And ain't nobody's gonna say shit. Ain't nobody gonna tell me shit. Because like, if it's not what I want to be hearing or not what I want, you know what I mean? But like, if it doesn't, if it doesn't land authentic with me, I'll find another space to be.

(Poem)

Because my heart keeps a rhythm older than I’ll ever be. Sharing spirit to genome with the choir that sings this song called life. The drums drive me wild. It’s a love that transcends. It’s my mother, and her people, and the generations of love making, It’s my father, and the legacy, of healers liberating. It’s the sunny shores, and the green infinite, It’s the path that I’m aligned with, Guidance and sublime gifts. So, witness, all the laughter, The meals, the dishes after, Come to us as we gather. Hold us through the disasters, We’re still dancing on your shoulders. Let’s dance together. I love to hold you closer.

I'm gonna come back to my questions.

I love it. I love your little like insidious chuckle like, hah hah ah.

42 minutes later, let me ask question two. No, no, I'm gonna skip a whole bunch. Because I think we talked about a lot of these things already. And a lot of them I feel like just aren't as relevant to the conversation that we are having. But I do want to talk about, like, how does space and the commodification of it impact belonging? And like, I think, you know, I think you're in a really unique position to, or like, not unique, but like, I think you're in a really like, interesting position to talk about ways that reclaiming space, no matter where you are geographically, can weave that sense of belonging?

Yeah. It's once again, like, you know, having worked with and you know, beside like, homeless encampments for so many years, like, I love it, when they just take space. They're like, where do you want us to go? You know, we can't, you know, we're made invisible, we're marginalized. And then like, community is what keeps us safe? Because, you know, there has to be, you know, we are the, the examples of what happens when you don't feed the capitalist machine. That's the only reason that's like a big reason why homelessness still exists. It doesn't have to, you know, but it's just to remind everybody to be like, Hey, you don't want to be like them do you don't want to be in the Downtown Eastside? Eat your vegetables, go to work. And I love it when like, they just take space. They're like, No, this park is ours. You know, like the tent city back in 2016 in Victoria is literally between the Supreme Court and the Cathedral. It's like literally right between church and state, if you want a beautiful little metaphor, right, of taking that space because out here, this is what this is, like British Columbia is the name of this land from a certain sects eyes, and you're like, wow, okay, like you guys really weren't trying to hide anythiny were you? Like that was that's pretty explicit. What the vibe is out here. Hey. And if you look at it, like, even when I was thinking about moving out here... obviously so expensive, that is the land. Right? It's the land. It's, that's the number one commodity out here. Right? And we feel that, and there's a certain thing where it's like, okay, cool. Like, you know, there's a saying in the tent cities be like, Okay, you're breaking the law whose law? Right? So there's always kind of this thought to be like, if we're humans, and we're in this together, like, some system of papers, in a building enforced by violence is now... you are no longer entitled to occupying this space. You know, like, you're not harming anybody, you're not, you're actually helping. Right? It's like, you know, when they tear up an illegal garden, like, whoa, okay, I like that, is that the best way to do things? Like for who? You know, so I think that, you know, there's that part of it, of course, and I think the reason why I bring that part to the forefront is so that I can be aware of it so that I can let it go, you know, to realize where the harm...like a critical analysis to what harms those kinds of things can do. So like, I'm like, you know, what, I mean, I'm like, some Mopping Molly being like, it's all so bad, like, no, it's pretty awesome. Like, like, just looking at the ground. There's a million miracles there, you know, and once you know, to loop it back to the beginning of the conversation, I think it's like, once we have these things out there, like, once we're aware of those things, then we can like, let them go or integrate them or do what we got to do to really just be present to this miracle. Like we're standing in the space and time, alive, hopefully healthy, hopefully safe, hopefully happy, hopefully experiencing some ease of living, and enjoy what we're doing right now. And that feeling is, you know, I think kind of the goal of everyone that's come before us, I know, certainly every parent, you can speak to that. Right. And I think that that's something that unifies us, because I think we all want that no matter what our beliefs are. It's like, those are the actions that make life awesome. So let's do that. And then being here, in this space, you know, they're going to try and commodify they're going to try and control they're going to try and oppress because they're the very, very small minority. But the party has always been at the bottom of the pyramid. So like, yo, let's go like, let's, let's enjoy that. Because then it becomes a radical act.

Love it. I'm gonna bring it back to you. Like we kind of started at you. And then we went really big. And I want to bring it out to you and your sense of belonging, and my understanding is that you feel the most belonging with your brother. Nick. Yeah. So I just want to know, like, Alright, I just want to hear like, how you two cultivate that and how you kind of like, you know, you you've explained it to me as, like, you learn a lot from your, like, healing journey kind of together. So I want to know, like, how, and and how do you learn from each other?

Yeah, so like, it just warms my heart, you know, like, just thinking about this kid. You got a kid right now, he's a grown ass man. It was like a big boy job. And like, my neice, six year old child. But no, it came from, you know, growing up, obviously, wasn't always the easiest place at home. So, you know, I spent a lot of time him and I, right. And, you know, I kind of, I think that's why I kind of I'm in leadership now is like that big brother energy, where it's like, I'm not responsible for you, but I feel a drive to, you know, maybe see what I can do about your use of living about, you know, your health, and your safety and all those things. And I think that, like, that's always been, like, such a constant in a world. That's so inconstant. You know, that's always in flux. And I think that that's, you know, over time, it's just for me, it's one of the spaces where I feel so effortlessly connected. It's just there. You know, we were literally roommates at one time, like, that's, we have our own lingua franca, we have our own space, you know, there's so much humor and love and understanding there. That's just something I don't have to worry about. It's a place where love is just so easy, and just always present, you know? And it's just even participating, it's nurturing that, it's just wonderful. So like, especially around this time of life, you know, in my 30s, my mid to late 30s, and he's entering, you know, his mid to late 30s, as well, it's like, you know, we go through these different phases of life, but we go through them, you know, together or a little staggered, or sometimes he'll go forward on something, and then I'll catch up, you know, with his help, and, you know, sharing in that experience, it's really, I don't know, like, it's a really positive some kind of thing. It's like, it's, you know, there's a, there's a real understanding of like us, you know, going through it. Same with my sisters, same with my friends, you know. But, you know, especially at this time to like, you know, there's a lot of contracts, social contracts, you know, psychological contracts, contracts with self that need to be audited and reviewed, because the same things aren't filling up the cup anymore. Or, you know, certain situations have become untenable now, because we are different people than when we first entered them. And so being able to navigate that space with somebody that I know, is always on my side, is going to tell me the truth. And can tell me something like that's, that can be so activating and is wrapped in so much love, you know, and then also too like, there's such a, such a fruitful space going back, because like, also, like, if I'm going through and you know, say a trauma, and I'm looking back at like my childhood, he was there. So it's like, maybe he had a different experience of that. And then that expands my capability to rational not rationalize, but integrate my own experience and realize that it could be like the same event could be something wholly different. That gives me a little bit of bandwidth, right, for example. So, you know, plus, he's just funny, plus, like, we'd get each other and like, you know, we can appreciate that. So whether we're just, you know, talking shop about like, you know, our favorite soccer teams or like going on some deep intimates harrowing journey into our past to heal ourselves presently and push that forward over generations. Like, it's just nice to have somebody that's like, that's there that gets it that speaks the same mother tongue because you learned at the same time, you know? Yeah. And so like, I think that that, yeah, that's for me and like, pulling that forward. You know, that's the ancestor energy.

Right?

Yep. So, I love that so much.

Yeah, does that lose any of that resonate with you and your brothers?

Um, yes. Like, yes, for sure. We have very different ways of, I'll be real, like, I went on, like a pretty, like, independent for the first half of my 20s. Like, until I accidentally got pregnant. I was like, Holy fuck, I cannot be an individual, I need community. Like, I really went my own way to try to figure out a lot of stuff, a lot of questions, a lot of like, you know, seeking answers about ancestors and all these things in general that I was like, I don't even know who I am. I'm like this one kid. And, you know, my mom's family's Portuguese and like, this fucking loud, big family where like, there's drama all the time, didn't really was not close with my dad's family that we knew. Like, like his sisters and stuff, like not super close, like they were in our lives. And we have good relationships with, like, my cousins on, like, my dad's two sisters and their kids, but not like, you know, like, I don't really know anything about who they are deeply as people. But my mom's family, it was like, always together, always, whatever. And I just, like, wanted to find out who I was outside of that, I guess. So I would say like, since having Rook I realized that all of that was there. For me. All these questions I had about it all, like was there and my Portuguese family who I had been integrated with my whole life who had taken care of me and you know, been loud, but like, we're listening. So like, my brothers. Yes. But like bigger. My family who raised me like my my Vova Lena really like my grandma on my mom's side was the was the one I think like she, she died a few years ago, just like a year before Rook was born but and it took a long time to figure it out too... she was sick when I was in my 20s. So like, I felt like I lost that connection or something like she was really she had like brain stuff also like so she was really quite different. And even though she was physically there, like the person who gave me the most sense of belonging wasn't really there anymore. And so like coming back to her her after she died and coming back to just like, the family that she held together. Like my Portuguese family was where it all kind of clicked and gave me that even though we're not as close as we were like, I, I am who I am because of my Vovalina and all the all the cousins and all the aunts and uncles running around, you know. Yeah, and I think it like really just all, just to you know, put a neat little fucking bow on it. Like, it all goes back to what you were talking about, right out the gates, which is like, it's how we, it's where we relate to each other that we find belonging so that we can like, you know, feel, I want to say acceptance, in a sense, or just like, yeah, like, love you, right? It's just love when you can go and yeah, live however, like be whoever take up the space, however. And, like live your weirdest self, you know, when you when you have that sense of belonging.

Absolutely, no, I love that I really do. And like, there's this wonderful moment, you know, where it's like, you know, like even being getting on this call with you, right? I see your face on like, Oh, my God, Jamie, I love Jamie my heart. Like, there's a little like, you know, what I mean, those kinds of in the essence in the air, that's, you know, there's dancing a little bit. And then, you know, to think that, you know, you're feeling the same thing on the other side, you know what I mean? Like, that's what, like, not only is that love given, it's received, and that's like, this kind of two way street. I think they that's the space. You know, and that space is possible with everything. You know, that feeling and like that, that that acceptance of like, here's my whole heart for you. And you're like, Oh, here's my whole heart for you like, like that, that vulnerability is matched.

Yeah. And it's interesting that we both kind of connected back to like, you know, relationships that that came out of like childhood or, you know, our experiences, kids, because I think like, there's this curiosity about life, there's this questioning, there's this, like, way of thinking that the people who made us feel like, like that curiosity, those questions, that way of thinking, wasn't anything to be ashamed of, are probably the people that are always going to make us feel the most sense of belonging, right. And like, we need more of that, we need to be able to ask questions without feeling immediate shame, which like you talk to you. I mean, like, in a very extreme way, like that drunk white guy. Like, you really, you know, you you could have isolated him in that moment. You could have done something that made him think, oh, fuck, like, whatever. But instead, like you chose to be in belonging to each other as humans, which is like, kudos to you. Because you know, I probably didn't like what the fuck?

No, there was definitely WHAT THE FUCK energy it's just you know, love and you feel love then it's just so much easier than all the rest of it.

Yeah. Yeah. Anyways, yeah, just that like sense of sense of like, you know, can we be in a space? Can we hear each other? Can we ask questions? Can we like, just like, love and then break like you say, with your brother, like, you know, bring you forwards with me as I as I move forwards, right? And so like bringing each other, yeah, that it's reciprocity. Like

It really is, and like in that there's so much that's found, like, that's that belonging, and from that safety, from that, like, I know where I can go. If it all goes sideways, there's that there's a freedom there. There's a bravery there. You know, the greats, ravenous capitalism beast will always try commodify but like, you know, if you know the tricks, then you can still have a good time.

Belonging is just relationships.

That's it! And you can't comodify that shit, you can try. You can try! you can, you can have, you know, your Bumbles and your Twitter's and like you know, your matchmakers and your all the things but it's not until like you know, lips touch or hands start holding each other embraces are shared when the magic happens and everything around it is just...

Anything else you want to say before we

Yeah, let me think let me think here. Yeah, I just think that like, it takes work, right to change, you know, to change. period. Ultimately, right? And like I was thinking about it, and it's like, look like, you know, in childhood, you kind of build your house. Right? Like, like, psychologically speaking. But what happens inside the house is completely up to you, it's your house. Right, and to have other people feel good in that space, to have other people want to be in that space to enjoy themselves to be respectful guests, but not guests go in the fridge, whatever is there is for you. You know, that's one of the most rewarding things, you know, is to belong to yourself, like, integrate it all, don't be mad at it, you know, don't run from it, don't hide from it. And hopefully you get the space to live to catch up. Because when you do feel that belonging, it's so infectious, it's just it's our natural, their natural birthright as as humans, we're wired for it. So, you know, I think that especially coming on this journey with you, or it's like, really looking at the belonging it brings, it brings such richness to my experience as a human being during this time. And, you know, I think that you know, what we look at what we do when we shine light on grows. So, belonging is definitely something that we grow, and it's growing. And we just got to branch into it. It feels really good.

I love it. Thank you for this.

Oh, thank you, Jamie. My heart is so warm,

So warm, so good.

(Poem)

I need to open up these arms and welcome you in. get you as close to this heart as I possibly can. I've even added an extra set of pushups in preparation because in that embrace in that perfect set of circumstances I belong.

Thanks for listening to On Belonging.

This episode featured Patrick Pouponneau, with music by AwareNess and ZF Bergman. On Belonging is curated by carla joy bergman and Jamie-Leigh Gonzales with tech support by Chris Bergman. The show's awesome theme music is by AwareNess. On Belonging is a Joyful Threads and Grounded Futures creation. Please visit groundedfutures.com for show notes, transcripts, and to read more about on belonging.

Till next time, keep walking. Keep listening...

These transcripts were generated in Otter, and lightly edited by our team.