Bigger than the song - Bayala Aboriginal Corporation

Bigger Than The Song: Bayala Aborigianl Corporation – Transcript

Jane McDavitt

The following podcast is brought to you by the Creative Arts team from secondary curriculum, the Curriculum Directorate of the New South Wales Department of Education.

Dominique Higgins

Yiradhu marang mayiny-galang, Yuwin-dhu Dominique Higgins

Balladhu Bangerang Wiradjuri Yinaa

Hi everyone, my name is Dominique Higgins.

I am a proud Bangerang Wiradjuri woman

Ngadhu banhi-gu gulbarra Dharug Ngurambang-ga nginha ngan-girra dhurinya gayi dhalang

I would like to acknowledge the Dharug nation on which I’m coming from today.

Ngadhu banhi-gu gulbarra Muyulung-galang maradhul-bu yaala-bu

I would like to acknowledge Elders past and present

Ngadhu banhi-gu gulbarra biyambul guwal Ngurambang-galang-bu

I would like to acknowledge all the lands you are coming from today and the Elders and Knowledge Holders who live, and have lived, on those Countries.

As I listen, I hear the vibrations of Country, sound echoing through time, carrying stories, over 65,000 years. With each breath I honour that air that carries song, Language, and the heartbeat of this land. I acknowledge our First Peoples, the custodians of this land, whose music, through voice, instrument and rhythm, has always been a way of knowing, being and doing. I listen with respect, knowing that this land, always was and always will be, Aboriginal Land.

Mandaan guwu wudha-garbinya

Thank you for listening.

Jackie King

Welcome to Creative Cast, the official podcast of the New South Wales Department of Education's creative arts curriculum team. My name is Jackie King and I'm a creative arts curriculum advisor and music subject matter expert.

Dominique Higgins

And my name is Dominique Higgins. I'm a proud Bangerang Wiradjuri woman in my role of Aboriginal Education Advisor with the Department of Education. Today we are lucky enough to be joined by Jasmine Seymour and Debbie Smith from the Bayala Aboriginal Corporation. Bayala Aboriginal Corporate is a Dharug Language organisation based in Sydney.

Bayala is leading the research behind current Dharug Language revitalisation project. Bayala believes that sharing, teaching and learning Dharug Language is a cultural responsibility as important as caring for Country and Community. Jasmine Seymour is a Dharug woman belonging to the Burubiranggal people. Jasmine is a descendant of Maria Lock through the Lock, Morley, Douglas, and Seymour families. Jasmine is a Dharug Language teacher, a Dharug Language activist, an award-winning children's book author-illustrator, a Dharug Language song maker, a primary school teacher, and a Language researcher. Jasmine supports Australian Language education for all and works towards advocating for and promoting multilingual Indigenous Australia.

ng in High School Music since: 1992

Jackie King

The Bayala Aboriginal Corporation have granted us permission to include their songs, Yanma Ngurrawa and Ngarra Badhu to be included in the Stage 4 unit, 'Bigger than the song'. And today we will talk about the Language, story, protocols and permissions for students in New South Wales to learn these songs in the classroom.

Dominique Higgins

Yiradhu marang Jasmine and Debbie, gawaymbanha and mandaang guwu, thank you for joining us.

Jasmine Seymour

Didyarigurr. Didyurigurr

Deborah Smith

Didyarigurr Warimi.

Jasmine Seymour

Warimi budyari nhaady'unyila Dharug Ngurragu. Hello. It is good to see you all here today on Dharug Country.

Jackie King

Thank you. We are really excited to speak to you today about these songs. But before we do, can you take a little moment to tell us a little bit about yourself and the roles in which music has played in your life?

Jasmine Seymour

Sure. Ngaya giyara Jasmine Seymour. So, my name is Jasmine Seymour. I'm a Burubiranggal woman belonging to the Hawkesbury area in Sydney. My, music journey really starts with my dad. My Dad was an old folkie and a blues man. He also taught himself to become a jazz musician when I was in high school, so I got really fixated on becoming a jazz singer. I went to Southern Cross University and did their contemporary music course straight out of school. I got in on my audition, which was amazing. I couldn't read any music. My dad was an ear learner, a complete ear learner so it was a really big shock for me to go to university and realise you have to read music which was very jarring and a big learning journey for me. I thought that I was going to be a jazz singer, because that's what I had been doing with my dad, but I sort of realised when I left uni, I'm actually an introvert and I don't really enjoy performing at all. Love singing, love making music, don't love being the front person. So, that was quite shocking for me to suddenly go, well what am I going to do then?

So, I didn't really want to become a music teacher either because my dad was a high school music teacher. So, I sort of stayed away from that for a long time and I really did try to get into the gig scene in Sydney, but yeah, it just wasn't working out for me. I then had some children, and I decided that I wanted to go and retrain as a primary school teacher. And so, I went and did that and, started teaching, kindergarten. And when I was teaching kindergarten, I was really made aware that there were no resources for Dharug Language at all. There was nothing. And that sort of led me to write my first children's book, Cooee Mittigar. And after I did that, I went and did the Masters of Indigenous Languages Education at Sydney University, and I was really shocked that I didn't have any understanding of my Language. I thought that I did, but when I got there, I realised I've never been taught anything about my Language, and it was deeply shocking to me that this had not been available to me in school. It seemed like a really big injustice.

And so, I started immediately making resources and making songs because I was teaching little people. And it was so, so powerful for these kids because the school I was teaching at had a really large Indigenous cohort, and immediately when we started learning and teaching songs, the engagement of these kids just absolutely went through the roof. And so much so, that one of the kindergarten classes that I had to teach, every time they would see me coming, they would start singing Ngarra Badhu which is one of the songs we're doing today.

And you know, this is the power and beauty of music. When I went through primary school, you were taught the C staff from Kindy. You know, recorder, you had a really, really good music education I felt. You learn all of that, but we don't do that anymore. And sometimes you know, it is not the priority of schools. I think through this journey of creating songs for our revitalisation program, you see how much kids miss it, how important it is for them, what joy it brings everyone, the peace it brings people, and it also builds community. Music is just one of those, amazing things that really enriches your whole life.

Jackie King

I love, how teaching little people sort of brought you back to song and also, really exploring that music in the classroom. That's beautiful. Debbie, how about you? What could you tell us a little bit about, yourself and the role music's played your life?

Deborah Smith

So very briefly, I started playing the piano at the age of four, classical piano player, lots of eisteddfod competitions, AMEB grades, and kind of got to the end of high school and my teacher, who was from the Ukraine said, well, you're not really going to be a performer, so sent me off to do a teaching degree.

oing that, like I said, since: 1992

Yeah, that's how it ended up and so in my master's degree I did of course you have to do a research project. You have to teach the Language in one way, and then you have to teach it in another way and see which one works best. So of course, I use music and of course, the results from my little, research project, the actual teaching with music, the kids actually loved that. And when I interviewed them afterwards to get their feedback, you know, the comments were; they really enjoyed learning the songs that went along with the Language, it made it easier, it made more sense, it just flowed more – all of those things that Language learning support, was just there with the use of music. You know, because learning both music, and learning Language, there's a lot of repetition involved. You know, you've got to do your scales, you've got to practice that line or whatever. But you are doing that repetition, but the kids don't realise it as much when you're presenting it through a different medium. So we're not actually speaking it anymore, but we're just reinforcing it with this music, which makes it so much more fun. And the kids actually don't realise they're learning something at the same time.

Jackie King

I love that. Debbie, you've touched on and spoken a little bit about your masters of Indigenous Language Education and your research project and the topic of valuing, of teaching Language through song, could you share a bit more about what that looks like or how you have done that in your classrooms?

Deborah Smith

So essentially, I've tried to marry the songs with whatever Language script we're working on. And so teaching them whatever the dialogue is of the day and then reinforcing it with a song. In essence, as I said before, the kids actually think they're having a bit of a break and a bit of fun, you know, bring the xylophones out, we'll have a little muck around on those. Why they're doing it from my perspective is to just reinforce and consolidate their Language knowledge, and the other thing we've done just recently with our performances of course, is the actions. So, the little kids actually love the actions and the jumping around and reinforcing the dhalang through, not only the singing, but also the actions, which is, fantastic. Like I'm amazed I've been working with the primary schools locally to prepare for performances for a local festival and each of those schools has had one visit by me and one group rehearsal before the performance, and I'm amazed at how much the kids have remembered the Language of the songs, the melody of the songs through those very quick, you know, rehearsals. I mean it's not how the SYO or SSO will, prepare for a concert you know, it's very, very quick. We go in, we do the Language, we do a few actions, we jump around and whatever and it's amazing how quickly the kids will learn these songs and these melodies, which has been, quite nice to watch the joy that the kids have had.

Jackie King

Yeah, that's wonderful. Let's talk about the songs now. So, the department has been working with you to include Yanma Ngurrawa and Ngarra Badhu in the Stage 4 program 'Bigger than the song'. Can you talk us through why you are happy for these songs to be taught in schools across New South Wales?

Jasmine Seymour

Yeah, sure. So, Yanma Ngurrawa and Ngarra Badhu both reflect I think, the values of Indigenous communities, right? So Ngarra Badhu is about listening to water, listening to Country. Listening is one of the biggest Indigenous values there is. If you're not a good listener, you're considered to be stupid. If you're a good listener, you're very smart, you're intelligent. So listening, you know, if you don't listen to your elders, to Country, something bad is going to happen to you. And so the values in the song, are there because of the Language as well, right? And Yanma Ngurrawa is also about that. It's about walking on Country, looking at everything on Country, singing on Country, singing up Country, listening to Country. The really important values for Indigenous people and really for all Australians this is what relationality is, you know, understanding place.

So you know, Language revitalisation in Australia is unfortunately the largest, group so we still have some Languages, Indigenous Languages that are spoken by children, but it's not many. Most Aboriginal Languages are undergoing revitalisation. We are all learning about our Languages again, because that knowledge has been taken from us. We've been told in the past that we're all so different, that we possibly couldn't understand each other, but it's not true. You know, we have a similar set of sounds in the Pama-Nyungan family group. We have similar grammatical features, like all of our words take endings mostly. We share some common vocabulary as well. And, this lack of knowledge about this is actually a bit of a violence against us because it causes issues about who's allowed to learn Language, who's allowed to use it, who's allowed to speak it, who's allowed to teach it. But from our perspective, it's actually very urgent. You know, if we want to be using our Languages again, we need people to speak it. We need visibility. We need people to understand how they work and how are we supposed to do that if we never learn anything about them. Our organisation Bayala Aboriginal Corporation, we do view it as a cultural responsibility to share, to teach, and to learn more about our Language. It is extremely important. And what goes with that are these, universal values that everyone can find, some relation to, because they are common across all Indigenous nations.

Jackie King

Jasmine and Debbie, would you mind talking through, how best teachers should introduce these songs to their classes? What kind of steps should they take before launching into singing?

Deborah Smith

I think learning the sounds is really important and I know that most high school classrooms, the kids are going to be resistant to that. The kids here now fight over using the clap sticks and going through the sound drills – they get selected to do the sound drills every lesson, and I counteracted the negativity. We looked at the sounds and found out the words they belonged to. So the sound anga, you know you’ll find in some of those songs so the intellectual side of it is seeing that sound and link it to the word. And those sounds are common in so many Australian Aboriginal Languages. So Jasmine can speak more about that. But sound drills, you have to start every lesson with them otherwise...

Jasmine Seymour

you English it.

Deborah Smith

Yeah.

Jasmine Seymour

Yeah. So that is a really big issue for our Community because we know there are no fluent speakers of Dharug, we have never heard these sounds before. We’ve only ever heard English versions of these sounds, so it’s really important to drill the sounds just like you would do a scale. Music and Language has so much in common. It is literally patterns, and you just need to practice, practice, practice, and you sound terrible for such a long time and then, one day it all comes together and you sound beautiful. And so, the similarities between that is, has always really struck me.

I’m a trained Jazz singer, right? And so, you do all these vocal warmups, and I really knew the power of that and so going into Language learning, we really felt it was extremely important to have some sort of sound drill that gets your mouth a muscle memory of these sounds. It’s very, very important. And it takes literally three minutes a day or a session, and you just do them quickly before you start the songs. And like Deb said, you very quickly see these sounds in these words. So yeah, very important practice.

Dominique Higgins

Yeah. Beautiful. Can you talk to us a little bit about how cultural protocols guide your work, both within your Community and when you visit other communities as well?

Jasmine Seymour

Yeah. For us, the cultural protocols about using, our Language and our music is, like I said before, sharing is a common cultural value across all Languages. You know, but sometimes in Language revitalisation, some communities will not want to share their Language, some are still building their Language, and every Community is different.

And so you have to listen, remember that value again, to those communities and what they want. For us, it is about visibility. We want to see people use the Language, we want to have other people to speak it with. If we don't have those people, then we're not using our Language. It's really important to us that we share and teach and learn.

It is again, a cultural responsibility for us. Other Language groups have different protocols that you need to follow, so just because we say that you're allowed to share our music doesn't necessarily mean that you can do the same with the Language group where you are sitting on today. So you always have to be respectful. You always have find out more from those communities. You always have to include Indigenous people in any programs that you're doing about Language. So if you are about to use our songs in your school program, you need to check in with your Indigenous community in your school and make sure they're aware that that's happening.

You need to have conversations with the people who are community leaders in that space. It is really, really important because mostly they will say yes, but you will never know if you don't ask. So it's always the most respectful thing to do is to ask and find out.

Dominique Higgins

Absolutely. Thank you so much, Jasmine. And both songs are in Dharug Language. Can you talk to us about that journey that you've gone through, what that process was like, and particularly when writing them, how you connected with your Community, to bring them life.

Jasmine Seymour

Well, with Ngarra Badhu, like I said, they were really, made for my Indigenous Community at school. That's where they were born out of really and also for the adult speaking Community that we were doing the Language lessons with online as well. So it was both happening at the same time and they don't happen in isolation so the Community is aware that it is happening, so we have many, Dharug people who were sharing the songs and using them themselves, and so it becomes a really empowering thing to have for your Community because it also creates visibility. We were really inspired by Clint Bracknell's Noongar Wonderland and how amazing that was. And just his attitude also to Language revitalisation and sharing. I really, recommended it as a resource to check out because it is so beautiful. And the other thing too is like; these songs are not traditional songs. They're contemporary songs. You know, they have Western melodies because we are contemporary people influenced by the music that we grow up around, you know? We're writing as contemporary Dharug people. And so, they're not traditional songs by any means, but they are revitalisation songs that are full of meaning and purpose and, beauty as well. So yeah, I hope that answers that question.

Jackie King

It does. Thank you. You've talked about the importance of, if teachers are going to be using these songs, particularly if they're not on Dharug Country, that they need to be talking to their community first. Assuming they've received those permissions from their community and it's good for them to to be teaching and learning these songs. When teachers and students are listening to, performing or creating music inspired by these works, what sort of protocols or ethical choices do you think is most important for them to be keeping in mind?

Jasmine Seymour

I think really unpacking what the lyrics means. So as I I said before, like they reflect cultural values of our communities of listening, respecting Country, relationality of place, and reciprocity, you know, like sharing as well. And so, if you're going to turn either of these songs into a heavy metal, sort of jam, that's not appropriate. You know, you need to really think about the lyrics and what they mean. So, yeah, I think that's my advice about that. Debbie, what do you think?

Deborah Smith

Yeah I agree. The songs as they are, reflect, as Jasmine said, what they're about, what we're about, and so the styles really shouldn't be altered in any way.

Jackie King

Thank you. I guess that leads to my next question. So specifically, what permissions are you giving teachers and students when it comes to learning and performing Yanma Ngurrawa and Ngarra Badhu. For example can they be performed? Can non-Indigenous students perform them? Can they be arranged, transposed and sung in Language if local protocols are followed?

Jasmine Seymour

Yeah, absolutely. Again, a big value of ours is sharing, and it's because we want visibility. We want people to know that Dharug is the Language of the Sydney area. And so, by singing these songs, understanding them, you're doing that, you are helping us in our Language revitalisation journey.

You're also helping Language revitalisation in general because as I said before, we do not know anything about it in Australia. We're not given any education about how our Languages work. It is an act of violence against us. It causes a lot of problems, and the more people who understand what Language revitalisation is and its effects on communities and how we can all help to bring it back, the better.

Dominique Higgins

So we've spoken a lot about both your work in supporting Language revitalisation. Can we touch on now how it, looks at cultural healing as well for, for communities and for mob?

Jasmine Seymour

I think schools play a really big role. Like I was talking to Deb before about this idea, like, in this world of social media, your social media is curated for things that only you like, so you don't get a broad exposure to lots of things. So schools play a really big role in promoting Indigenous musicians and Languages and understanding and perspectives. It's really, really important that schools develop resources like this that shows the diversity of Indigenous Australia, because, I mean, even 10 years ago, there was still a very like central desert, sort of focused view of Aboriginal education. We weren't talking about place-based education at all. You know, it was just this one thing. But now in schools, you know, we're really getting on board with place-based education, place-based stories, Language, so anything you can do to support your local communities in developing Language programs, music opportunities, opportunities to come in and be part of the wider Community is really, really important.

Deborah Smith

Yeah, I think the thing is we're very respectful of all, you know, Australia is full of a whole lot of different Languages right? And we're respectful of all those different Languages. Like the kids here, some of them will speak three or four different Languages, and we're respectful of that, but we haven't been living in a world where we're respectful of people who speak Dharug or Wiradjuri or all you know.

Jasmine Seymour

Yeah.

Deborah Smith

It's really nice to start having that respect for our Indigenous Languages and people to be aware of that and our voice to be heard. You know, 'cause we've been respectful of everybody else, but not our own and like I said earlier on, it's nice to have some music from here instead of, you know, when we're trying to teach Aboriginal music, we're having to look for something from Central Australia to play because there isn't a recording of anything else very much so it's so nice to be able to have something contemporary that reflects our Culture and our Language, which is..

Jasmine Seymour

Yeah.

Deborah Smith

Wow what an amazing space. I have to wake myself up every day and snap myself and go, this is really amazing. Wouldn't have been heard of when I first started teaching. It's really an amazing thing.

Jasmine Seymour

Yeah.

Dominique Higgins

It really is. It's so exciting. And, I've got two little malangun coming through, two little girls, and just seeing the pathway that's being paved for our future generations is so exciting. Exciting, to know that they can learn Language in their schools and have all these opportunities so thank you so much for the work that you both do. I'd like to say mandaang guwu, thank you. And before we do finish, Jasmine, do you mind walking us through, the phonetic, pronunciation of your songs?

Jasmine Seymour

So Yanma Ngurrawa walk on Country. So, Dharug only has three vowels, like most Indigenous Languages. We do also have some long vowels of the same sound. The vowels are ‘A’, the A symbol is ‘up’, like as in ‘cup’. The ‘’U symbol is ‘oo’ as in ‘put’, and the ‘I’ symbol is ‘ee’ as in ‘see’.

You know, the biggest trickiest sound in Dharug and most Aboriginal languages is the ‘ng’ digraph and the consonant digraph and it comes at the beginning of lots and lots of our words, and you see it inside English words like sing. if you've only ever read Indigenous Languages, you might go ‘ing’. But when you actually, understand pronunciation, you know that that sound is more like, nga nga nga (as in sanga) sound. And we do have to learn pronunciation, we do have to learn how the sounds are formed. They are very, very different to English and so unpacking, that is, quite important. And the beauty of it is they were actually very similar across all Indigenous Languages. So once you know some in Dharug, you're probably going to pick it up in Wiradjuri and Gamilaraay and Nampa Languages.

You're going to understand if you just, such a little amount of information opens a massive world. So that's what is so powerful about this, you know? So, throw yourself into it and find out. Don't English it.

Deborah Smith

Have a go. Yeah, just have a go.

Jackie King

Thank you so much, Jasmine and Debbie for sharing with us today, and also to you both and the Bayala Corporation for allowing us to share these songs on a statewide level. I think you've really captured today how important it is that these songs, and songs in Language are shared, across New South Wales and explored in classrooms. I really liked Debbie, how you were talking about how easy, well easier it is to do that through music so it feels like the perfect place to be doing it and we're really grateful that you have given us the opportunity to share that, to support 7 to 10 Music in New South Wales.

Jasmine Seymour

Didyarigurr. Thanks for the opportunity, it's fantastic. Thank you.

Jane McDavitt

This podcast was brought to you by the Creative Arts team from secondary curriculum, the Curriculum Directorate of the New South Wales Department of Education. Get involved in the conversation by joining our statewide staff room through the link in the show notes or email Jane Mc Davitt at Creative Arts 7-12@dt.nsw.edu.au. I would like to acknowledge the beautiful Yidaki sounds of the start were from Whitebridge High School on Awabakal Country by proud Aboriginal students, Oslo Harradine, Renni Chapman and Zeb Short. The theme music for this podcast was composed by creative arts advisor, Alex Manton.

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