Conflict is inevitable, but it doesn’t have to divide us. In this episode, Enneagram coach Rob Yackley joins Jer to explore the Enneagram and how each of the nine types tends to show up in conflict. Together, they explore each type’s default responses, the unique gifts and traps they bring, and practical ways each can move from reactivity to resourcefulness. Whether you’re new to the Enneagram or fluent in this resource, join us as we discover how the Enneagram can help us show up more fully, more compassionately, and more peaceably when things get hard.

02:00 Opening

02:43 The Dynamic Nature of the Enneagram

05:45 Enneagram and Conflict Navigation

06:53 Intro to Enneagram in the Context of Conflict

11:10 Core Desires and Fears of Each Type

16:30 The Two Tasks of Life

21:53 Virtues and Vices of the Nine Enneagram Types

36:08 Conflict and the Enneagram

41:44 Belly Breathing and Re-growing our Fuses

43:37 Practical Tips for Each Enneagram Type

50:24 The Importance of Otherness in Enneagram

52:12 Conclusion

Mentioned in this episode:

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there's reasons why each of those nine types do what they do.

there's an inner core motivation.

There's I think we need to be aware of the fact that when we're in

conflict, that core part of us, that wound, that fear, that desire, that's

what usually is getting pressed on . That's what's being touched on,

and that's what we're responding to.

So knowing that each enneagram type has a different motivation, a

different fear, different desires.

Super helpful for navigating conflict because we're trying

to get to a different place.

Friends, welcome back to Mending Divides.

I'm Jer Swigart, and today we get to lean into a conversation about two

things that we bump up against every single day, conflict and our own wiring.

If you've been around here for a while, you know that we don't treat conflict

as something to be avoided, but as the very place where relationships are

tested, trust is built and peace is made.

And yet how we naturally show up in the heat of conflict often has as

much to do with our personalities as it does with the situation itself.

That's why I'm thrilled to be joined by my friend and Enneagram coach, Rob Yackley.

Together we're gonna take four journeys around the Enneagram types, not just

so that we can better understand ourselves, but so that we can learn

how to take good care of each other in the inevitability of conflict.

We will explore what the Enneagram is and how it sheds light on our default

responses to tension, what it looks like to bring our most integrated

selves when things get hard, the unique gifts and traps each type

brings to conflict, and even some practical ways to move from reactivity

to resourcefulness in the moment.

So whether You're Brand new to the Enneagram or you've been digging into

it for years, this conversation is gonna give us handles for showing up more

fully, more compassionately, and more peaceably in every corner of our lives.

Let's dive in.

Rob, where I'd love to start honestly, is with you personally as somebody

who has worked with leaders and and faith leaders, corporate leaders.

But one of the things that you do so well is you help leaders grow their

imagination for what it means to bring faith communities to life in

unique ways, in unique neighborhoods, in unique soils across the country.

And in your experience of working with leaders, myself included, I

know that you found this tool called the Enneagram to be really helpful.

So can you just us a little bit more about you and why you work

with leaders the way that you do?

And then when did the Enneagram start to show up in your life as a

tool that you found to be helpful?

Yeah, I've been, I've been working with communities for probably 40 years.

All different kinds of communities, intentional communities, missional

communities, missions teams, neighborhood communities work with some corporations

and use a ton of tools over these years to help people grow in their

self-awareness, their own personal development their awareness of the world,

what's going on around them, how to see the world, how to interact with the world.

And I have not found a tool more effective in 40 years than the Enneagram

and have used it for most of that time.

And I think what makes it so effective, what makes it so

helpful is it's a dynamic tool.

a lot of personality tools, and I've used a lot of them.

they're a bit static.

They show you what you're like, you know, you are an extrovert,

you are an introvert, you are, you know, sensory, you're, you

know, all those different tools.

And the Enneagram also tells you a bit who you are, but it

also tells you how you're doing.

are you growing?

are you evolving?

Are you stepping back?

Are you falling back?

Like, how are you doing?

How are you growing?

and then, it doesn't just tell you how you're doing.

It's not just about self-awareness, but it's also about other awareness.

I think that's something I really appreciate.

that's why I use it so much in team building and community building

is 'cause man, this will help you understand the people around you.

What motivates them, what animates them, what trips them up, how do you interact

with them, you know, when they're speaking, what are you hearing when

you're speaking, what are they hearing?

it's a great way to understand each other.

And I honestly, I, I don't know that a day goes by.

Coaching, leading communities, workshops, leading leaders that I'm not processing

through the filter of the Enneagram.

oh, okay, this probably, this person's probably a four and they're with

this bent and so super helpful tool.

I agree.

And I, you're the one who introduced me to it, and, you know, it was brand new to me.

I didn't know that it's an old tool.

It's something that's been around for a long time that seems to have been gaining

some momentum recently, I think, for the reasons that, that you just mentioned.

I mean, I've been pretty fluent in like the Myers-Briggs and like

Mm-hmm.

Yep.

I

Yep.

those tools.

I do too.

Yeah, because they highlight some realities and they help me

understand yeah, like myself and a

Yeah.

of the why and a little bit of the how, but it's the Enneagram for me

that really began to expose both the beauty and the shadow sides.

Yeah.

what you said, it forces us or maybe invites us to ask

the question, how am I doing?

Mm-hmm.

And how am I doing specifically in relationship to other people?

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

And so in, you know, now for about a decade, we've been using this

tool throughout Global Immersion.

And it's not just a leadership tool,

Yeah,

for all of us to sort out how to show up and how to be in relationship

with other, with other folk.

with other

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Of course, as it relates to this conversation because, you know,

mending divides is a conversation about conflict and our conviction

is that conflict is inevitable.

And so it suits us all to figure out how to navigate conflict well.

Leverage it as an opportunity for transformation.

One of the challenges that we've run into as an organization is

the idea that there really is no universal way to navigate conflict.

I think there are some universal tools that are really helpful and

like curiosity, as an example,

really

Yeah,

helpful tool, belly breathing, really helpful tool in terms

of navigating conflict.

But what we're finding is that different folk are oriented

toward conflict differently and

yeah,

and their impulse toward conflict while shaped by upbringing and culture is also

shaped by some kind of interior wiring.

That's for sure.

And so the deeper that we go into this work, the more I'm like, I wanna

have a conversation with you about the intersection of Enneagram and conflict.

bet there's some ways in which these nine types interact with it.

So Rob, for those of us who are newer to the Enneagram what is it and how

can it help us understand the ways we naturally show up in conflict?

it's a window into our personality.

It's a window into our soul.

It's a window into our motivation.

And I think one of the important things to understand about the Enneagram is

it gets typecast as a personality tool.

this is who you are and your, this is your collection of behaviors

and that defines who you are.

And yeah, there are nine types of personalities.

There's the type one, the reformer, the person who wants things to be

right and wants to fix the world.

There's the type two, the helper or the giver that just wants to help people and

come along people and improve their lives.

There's the three, the achiever, the performer that creates

and speaks and produces.

And then there's the four, the romantic, that's artistic and introspective

and cultivates an inner beauty.

There's the five, the investigator that's just taking information and

synthesizing is trying to understand the world and, and then there's the

six, the loyalist or the team player.

The person that just wants to be a part of something and belong

to something and contribute to something and hold things together.

There's the seven like me.

It's the adventurer, the explorer, the let's take new ground.

Let's explore, let's see what's out there.

Let's have fun.

let's bring some something to life.

There's the eight.

Like you you know, the challenger sometimes called the boss, the one

who like wants to take ground and wants to build something and wants

to make the world a better place.

And then there's the nine, the peacemaker or the reconciler.

the person that gets in that space between people and listens and mediates and

creates an atmosphere for reconciliation.

So that's really in a nutshell, those are the nine types.

But I think and again, there's healthy behaviors at each of those nine types.

There's unhealthy behaviors, there's growth, there's,

you know, what are we doing?

We're doing well, what do we look like when we're not doing well?

But I think really key, especially as it relates to conflict, I

think is understanding that it's, again, it's not just a personality

tool, it's a motivational tool.

there's reasons why each of those nine types do what they do.

there's an inner core motivation.

There's a desire that's propelling them to those kinds of behaviors.

and there's a corresponding fear.

there's kind of initial wound in our lives that created this fear and we're working

through that fear and we're trying to turn that fear into something healthy

and frame it around a virtuous desire.

But as it relates to conflict , I think we need to be aware of the fact that

when we're in conflict, that core part of us, that wound, that, that fear, that

desire, that's what usually is getting pressed on . That's what's being touched

on, and that's what we're responding to.

Hmm.

So knowing that each enneagram type has a different motivation, a

different fear, different desires.

Super helpful for navigating conflict because we're trying

to get to a different place.

Yeah.

I was just in a conversation yesterday with a couple of friends

about interpersonal conflict and wh when do I find myself triggered?

And when I find myself triggered, it's usually connected to, what feels

like an accusation toward inadequacy or failure, or I'm not good enough.

Mm-hmm.

you know, and rarely is a person saying that, but it's amazing to

me how that I have this big radar for being perceived as inadequate

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

good enough.

And when that happens, I find myself triggered and ready

to move toward conflict,

Yeah.

Yeah,

of what you're talking about?

it is.

and the reality is so there is, there's conflict, right?

There's an issue out there.

There's this is good, this is bad, or this is trouble.

This needs to be leaned into, we need to find a way forward.

But when we're triggered, we're not really dealing with the conflict initially.

Right.

with that sense of inadequacy, or I'm not feeling loved, or I'm not seeing, or I

feel insecure, or this feels dangerous.

And so it's that emotional response below the conflict that

we're initially responding to.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

So real quick, just for those who are a little bit newer to the

Enneagram, here are like the core desires for each of those nine types.

So for that one, that reformer, that activist, I mean, they have

the desire deep down to be good.

they want to be good.

So their behavior, their response to conflict is like,

what would goodness look like?

'cause I want to be good and my fear is that I'm not good

. My fear is that I'm somehow corrupted, that I'm a little less

than, and maybe that'll be exposed.

and so they enter into conflict with I want to be good.

I want to fix this, and I don't want to be bad.

And so that's my, some of that deep motivation, entering the conflict

Yeah.

for the two, that helper giver type person that's, you know, generous and always

present and always lending a helping hand.

Well, they wanna be loved, you know what I mean?

They just, they wanna be unconditionally loved, not just loved for the things

they do for you, but love for who they are and they fear not being loved . So

they're gonna enter conflict with this with love, kind of on the surface.

Like, how does this affect me being loved me, you know, being

welcomed which is different than me being right in that first one.

It's like me being good.

It's like me being loved for the Enneagram three, that achiever, that

performer, well, they wanna be valued.

do you value me?

do you see my worth?

And not just I'm valued because I created something wonderful, or, you know, I spoke

well, or I preached an amazing sermon, but I'm valued for who I am as a person.

So they're gonna enter conflict with value as a kind of a

primary kinda umbrella dynamic.

Mm-hmm.

The Enneagram four, that romantic artistic type person, their deepest

desire is to be their truest self, to be unique, to be oneself.

You know, one out of 8 billion people that's, you know, seen as

that one out, one out 8 billion.

Which is why a lot of fours don't like the Enneagram.

'cause it puts them in a category.

They don't wanna be in a category.

Right.

And the worst thing for a four is like not having an identity,

just being one of the crowd.

And so they're gonna enter conflict with that era of uniqueness . Five

competency, the five that investigator, analyst type person, they wanna

make sure they've got all the information, that they're competent,

that they're capable of achieving.

And their worst fear is like not being capable , not having the information

they need to make a good decision and not being exposed in the midst of

Mm.

the interaction with another person.

The six that loyalist team player kind of person.

Their deep desire is to be secure, you know, to be with people,

not to be cut off, to be without support, which is their fear.

I, I'm alone, I'm cut off some from support.

They wanna be part of something that feels right, feels consistent with

who they are and that they belong.

Mm-hmm.

the seven, they, that adventurer explorer type person.

Well, they kind of wanna be happy.

I mean, I want, I wanna be happy.

I, I wanna enjoy life.

I want life to be full and rich and full of great experiences.

And my greatest fear is I don't want to get trapped in messiness

and ugliness and pain, and I don't wanna lose out on opportunities

because I feel denied or trapped.

For the eights that, that challenger boss, big personality person, like you, Jer,

one of the core motivations for an aid is actually to protect, to

protect the people they care about, to protect the things that God has

been building, to protect justice, to protect people, to protect nations.

And which is why you get involved in heroic, you know,

incredibly important tasks.

'cause you want to protect.

And your greatest fear is you don't wanna be controlled.

You don't want other people to rein you in, control you or manipulate you, right?

And then finally,

I hate being micromanaged.

yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then that last person, that peacemaker that the reconciler

person, they want to be at peace.

Mm-hmm.

That's their deepest motivation.

I want to be at peace internally.

And externally.

I want, I wanna be at peace.

I want the world to be at peace.

And their greatest fear is being disconnected from everything,

just being alone, unseen, not part of not contributing.

So, so those are some of those fears and motivations that we

bring to the table in conflict.

And at a subconscious level, if not a conscious level, we're

processing in the midst of conflict.

And is it, we're being triggered, we're being challenged.

Yeah.

I'll pause there.

I feel like for those of us listening in now would be the

moment you just press pause

Yeah.

scroll back about

Yeah.

minutes and listen to that

Yeah.

And for those of you who are familiar with the Enneagram no

doubt deepens your understanding.

For those of us who are less familiar, that what just happened there might help

you understand something about yourself that you didn't know before and could

help you maybe even move in the direction of this tool that was remarkable.

Rob.

Now I'm,

Mm.

recognizing with nine different ways you know, generally speaking, nine

different ways motivations and fears.

That helps me understand why conflict is so complicated.

Mm-hmm.

Interpersonally.

You even started by saying, oftentimes when we're triggered, we're not dealing

with the actual conflict, we're actually dealing with the motivations and fears.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

How do we become more aware of our own motivation and fear?

And what value do you think that brings when we're dealing

with another human being,

Mm. Mm-hmm.

as conflict is beginning to emerge?

Yeah, great question.

Maybe one imagery that I find helpful for kind of understanding what's going

on at that deep level, especially in interaction with others, is to kind of

think of it like each of those nine types we're all on a journey and what comes

into play in conflict is when our journey gets like hijacked or blocked or denied,

and that's when it really gets messy.

But yeah, we're each on this journey and really that journey has two parts.

When we were born, we had this innate truth.

The assumption that we would be provided for.

We'd be cared for.

There'd be some human being out there, our mother initially, but

there would be some human being that would like, protect us and care for

us and feed us and change our diapers.

we would be safe, cared for and then that we would be unconditionally

loved.

Those are the two realities that every of the 8 billion people in the world, we

all were born with this expectation to be cared for and loved unconditionally.

Real early on in life, we learned the hard way that's

doesn't always work out that way.

In fact, it never works out that way.

It's like, actually my behavior changes people's response to me.

Mm-hmm.

I scream and throw fits and do things like people respond differently and it

doesn't feel like unconditional anymore.

And maybe I even feel a bit looked away from him or neglected.

So anyway, that, that dynamic, which is again, called that

original wound something happens in us that's like breaks.

It's huh, that sure thing of being loved and taken care of is not so sure.

Yeah.

So what I need to do is I need to put on my game face, I need to develop a

persona that makes sure I get that.

'cause I just learned at age three or four or whatever, that's not a sure

thing, but I can go back and get that.

So what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna develop this personality that gets that

care and gets that unconditional love.

Is that bad?

It just is.

You know, it's, you know, it's just, it's life.

it's just, it's a dynamic.

So that's like sometimes called the first task of life is like developing the

personality that gets you what got lost.

What's amazing to me is like the most fundamental decisions that shape so

much of the rest of our lives and the way that we understand it happened

when we were like two and a half,

Yeah.

it,

we made these decisions

Yeah,

we even had the ability to think carefully about them.

yeah.

it's buried so deep.

And yeah, and I'm not a psychologist.

I won't dive deep into the wounds, but we did, we know, we all know that

something broke and now I'm trying to earn that thing that I thought was a given.

And so, so that's not bad.

It's just the first task of life, you know, figuring that out.

Where it gets bad is when it doesn't evolve and that kind, our strategy becomes

a caricature, it becomes an exaggeration.

And we can all think of like drawings or paintings of caricatures of people, right.

And they look obnoxious and kind of gross and out of proportion, and.

and that's what our life starts to look at.

if we just stick with this, I'm gonna create a personality

that gets me what I want.

Hmm.

Hmm,

Healthy people come to a point where they realize that's not gonna work.

I've become a caricature.

I've become embarrassing.

I've becoming something that's unhelpful for society, for my

family, for my spouse, for my kids.

And so they turn to the second task in life, which is becoming

the person they were created to be.

So, first task, becoming the person that'll get what was broken or lost.

Second task.

Now I'm gonna become who I am , who I'm really meant to be.

So that's what I call that journey home.

So that second part is okay, we're all on this journey home.

I'm trying to become this person.

And in the midst of conflict, sometimes we feel like, wow, that got blocked.

I'm trying to get home and you got in my way,

Hmm.

and that's what I'm responding to, so, yeah.

Oh, that's really insightful.

I love the first task, second task, you know?

And you know, I find that in my work I spend a lot of time with people who are

really making significant decisions,

Mm-hmm.

around that second task.

Yeah.

and I feel like we live in a moment in time where significant

leadership is being exercised by people who are still stuck achieving

Yeah.

which they didn't get when they were when they were young.

this journey home, this journey of evolving, doesn't happen accidentally.

Yeah.

And I wonder, you know, how has the Enneagram.

Yeah.

How has it informed your journey home?

I,

mm-hmm.

feel as I've even observed you and as you've invited me into this journey in

different ways, that the tool itself has actually created some guardrails

for me around who I am becoming

Mm-hmm.

understand what that journey looks like and how the Enneagram can help us.

Yeah.

Enneagram is sometimes called the Nine Faces of the Soul.

and I like that.

'cause it's kind of nine perspectives, or nine angles, or nine reflections

of what I believe is a divine image.

And we see humanity in its most glorious beauty and fullness.

When we see all nine faces of the soul.

In Enneagram language, they call those the virtues, the virtues that

each Enneagram type brings to the table, that brings to the world.

And when those nine virtues are all like shining and working in unison and

working together, it's like, wow, this is what it's supposed to look like.

This is what people are supposed to be like.

This is what humanity is supposed to look like.

So that becomes a really helpful idea.

Like for each type, it's like, so what is my virtue?

yeah.

what is the thing that I can bring into this world that like,

that shines that's remarkable.

That's healing, that's inspiring.

and they're not the same.

I mean, each of the nine types has a different virtue that they bringing

into the world in an interesting way.

it's a virtue that you only arrive at by working through your vice.

It's almost like our virtue is like after we work through our darkest stuff called

our vice, and we grow through that and we become healthy, integrated individuals,

Yeah.

then we see this virtue.

So

Oh, let's go.

Let's go.

do it, do

and virtues, then

should we do it?

Okay.

So, so for the Enneagram one and that reformer that let's make

the world a better place person.

Their virtue is serenity.

Huh?

Serenity.

Like they're at home now.

Their vice is anger because they see how broken things are.

They see the, a messed up world.

they get mad at people, understandably.

Mm-hmm.

they see what's happening in the Middle East.

They see what's happening in Ukraine.

They see what's happening in our own country and they, it makes them mad.

And they, and they can get caught.

they can get stuck.

We can get stuck in our vices.

Yeah.

But if we can acknowledge that, we can, that's really the first step.

I acknowledge my anger, I see my anger, and we work through our

anger, which is a whole nother conversation, all the growth processes.

But

Mm-hmm.

if I can work through my anger and get to the place where I am serene, where

I'm at peace in a world that's ugly

Yeah.

and the world sees wow, there's that reformer activist person who

can get pissed off really easy and get really worked up easy.

But right now, man, they are serene.

And that is, whew.

That's gorgeous, right?

that's,

contagious and deeply influential.

yeah, exactly.

And.

So then there's the two that, that helper, that giver, that generous,

always lending a helping hand.

Well, their vice is pride, which is like pride, huh?

They're just the helper.

they're the, you know, good teammate.

Well, it's pride because they know how much they help, you know, they know all

the good things they do, and that can, you know, on a bad day seep into their head.

and it can also lead them like to do things to be loved.

I'll help you because really, I wanna be loved.

I mean, that's my deep motivation we talked about earlier.

So they can get into a people pleasing mode, but when they break free of

that, I'm not doing this to please you.

I don't feel like I have to earn love.

I just, I feel loved.

I feel like I'm loved and I'm labeled the love back.

And they bring unconditional love.

that's their virtue.

Unconditional love.

no more earning, just.

I'm

Mm-hmm.

and I feel loved, and we see that it's inspiring.

I'm gonna keep going, but you can jump in at any time.

I'm loving this.

Yeah.

Okay.

Then there's the three, that performer you know, the person

who gets just a ton of stuff done.

The achiever, the type three the gift that they bring, the virtue that they

bring into the world's authenticity.

Mm-hmm.

Now, the dark side is deceit.

Mm-hmm.

can just imagine someone who's used to achieving, used to accomplishing

things, used to being upfront.

It's easy for them to kind of spin life and experiences in

a way that hides failure, that hides, you know, inadequacies.

And so everything is like shiny.

Mm-hmm.

And so that can lead to a sense of well, yeah, I'll make everything

look good even when it's not good.

When they can become honest with themselves, honest with the

world, and just stand before us with a sense of authenticity, the

world goes, that's attractive.

Yeah, that's fascinating because I, the, one of the ways I describe it three is

that they're experts at hiding in plain

Mm-hmm.

because they, because of the eloquence of spin

Yeah.

when they are authentic the influence that, that, it just invites the rest of us

Yeah.

to

Absolutely.

a

Mm.

their hair down and says, I can be imperfectly, incomplete, and in process,

Mm-hmm

of us can say, oh

hmm.

because so are we.

Yeah.

yeah.

just such a superpower.

Yeah.

That's a great insight too, Jer.

'cause that's true of all these virtues.

There's one, there's one type that kinda radiates it in this surprising grace way.

It almost has that wow, I did not expect that,

Hmm.

doesn't mean the rest of us can't be serene.

Doesn't mean the rest of us can't feel or experience unconditional love.

right.

means when that particular person exhibits it, it has that,

like, did not expect that and

it has a transcendent

yeah.

I

Yeah.

when a two does unconditional love,

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

does serenity, it impacts the entire community

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Hmm.

For the four that artistic romantic person their vice is envy because they

want to be unique, they wanna be special, it's easy to look around all the other

unique special people around them and oh man, he's better at that than I am, and

she's more artistic than I am, and that's a way better website than my website.

Yeah.

they kind of.

That, that vintage wardrobe is better than

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

their candles are better than my candles and, yeah.

But when they work through that kind of comparing and envy and like

fighting to, you know, to be unique and they become their truest self.

We see in the four, like this transformation, this beauty evolving.

And we see the growth in the four.

we almost see the process of the growth in the four where other types we see

like the end product with the four.

We, we watch this transformation and it like that is inspiring.

Now I want to be transformed.

I, you know, I want to grow, I want to be more,

Got

more myself.

So their virtue is transformation.

Transformation.

Yeah.

They, I mean, they show us what the beauty of growth looks like.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The five that investigator.

Figure out the world kind of person.

The gift , the virtue they bring to the world is clarity.

They just, they help us see how things work.

They help us see how the universe works.

They're like people that put together the puzzles of life and they're

just here's how this piece goes and here's how this piece goes.

Now they can be a bit like, they can almost hoard that knowledge because

they want to, they wanna be competent.

They wanna be maybe the smartest person in the room.

And so they, their vice actually is avarice.

So this kind of, I'm gonna keep all the information to myself.

I'm going to, because I want to be the one to deliver the goods.

I wanna be the one that presents the paper.

I don't wanna be the one that does the research that gets the Nobel Prize so they

can kind of like hoard that information.

But when they, when they share it,

Hmm.

generous with

Yeah.

they've learned and they bring clarity to the world, it's like, wow.

Huh?

stuff.

Good stuff.

the, where are we at the six?

Yeah, that's, that team player, that loyalist that again, that

person who doesn't wanna be without support, that's, that, that fear

they, that they wanna belong.

They wanna be part of something.

the vice that the six struggles with is fear.

people might go away,

Mm-hmm.

lose community, I might lose my team, I might lose my church.

You know, I, it's that, something could be taken away.

Something could leave and I'll be alone.

Yeah.

But when they work through that, when they face that, they face those fears,

they face those yeah, those things that, that scare them and they rise above it.

They bring courage.

And so their virtue is courage.

So in a six, you know, a person that you maybe wouldn't expect

to be all that courageous, when they're courageous, the rest of us

feel like we can be courageous too.

they did it, I can do it.

The seven the adventurer explorer type person you know, they can

get in that pursuit of happiness.

They can kind of.

They could kind of be a little flighty or, you know, kinda bounce around

a little bit, shift directions.

Happiness becomes very much a product of the immediate

experience, the immediate moment.

Their vice is gluttony.

and really, not necessarily of food, but of, could be food,

Mm-hmm.

it just gluttony of experiences.

I just want, just wanna keep having experiences.

and since my happiness is contingent on the value or success of those

experiences, but when they realize that life is bigger than just experiences

and happiness is not so fleeting.

And they experience joy, that kind of settled sense of contentment and like

a deep sense of, I, I'm happy with me, I'm happy with the world, the way I am.

Not that it's perfect, but I have joy in this.

So I'm no longer running off to the next thing.

I'm okay right here.

and I think I, just to break in real quick, Rob, again, thinking about

the virtue sides of these as the unique superpowers of these people,

as I'm listening to you unfold, I'm thinking about a person who

identifies as a seven in this case, and I'm like, yeah, that's right.

When they are content,

Mm-hmm.

it, it's, it settles the RPMs of all of

Mm-hmm.

We are collectively, content.

Things might not be as they could be,

Yeah.

but we are collectively content

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Let's move on to the eights.

I happen to know one.

You're looking at one.

I love eights.

I've, my whole life I've been surrounded by eights.

Eights, you know, as you know, they kind of get a bad rep 'cause they are like the

boss and that challenger, and they're.

can really bulldoze, you

Bull.

Those people knock the

healthy

knock things down, you know, all those eight things.

But yeah, but they also get stuff done and they fight for things that really matter.

And the, the, the vice of the eight is lust.

Again, not necessarily sexual lust, but just the lust for more

control, the more power, lust for more ground, for more growth.

Just to,

Yeah.

I want more.

I want more.

We could be better.

And I mean, you could see how that's a good thing.

Like we can be better, we can take more, we can grow.

Or it could be really just a example of a corrupted kind of lust.

Yeah.

The eights, I like that superpower.

I'm gonna use that language you used, use the superpower of the eight,

the virtue of an eight is innocence.

And again, it's when that strong, bold person that's kind of used to like shaking

things up and being like indomitable and almost being bigger than life.

when that eight says, you know, I'm human.

Mm-hmm.

I'm, I'm, I'm just a guy.

I'm just a woman doing my best

Yeah.

and I need to, you know, I need to lay my head down too.

And that vulnerability.

When the A gets, when the A gets vulnerable and we see that tender softer

side of the eight, we see that innocence inspires all of us to be more innocent,

to be more vulnerable, to be more real.

Yeah.

I resonate.

That feels similar to the three,

Mm-hmm.

There are a lot of similarities.

right 'cause an eight, like we can hide in plain sight as well

and we love to project strength.

But like that my learning curve over these years has been around

vulnerability and how humanizing that is and what a relief that is for others,

Mm-hmm.

that people don't need us to be perfect.

They want us to be human,

Yeah.

Absolutely.

And that's the transcendent impact right

Exactly.

Yep.

Yeah.

So good.

And then finally, the nine, that peacemaker, the mediator, the

reconciler their vice is sloth.

It doesn't, it's not, it doesn't mean they're lazy.

I mean, nines can be very productive and they can actually be very busy.

What it really means is they can be slothful with bringing their presence.

You know, they can be in the room and they can be participating.

They can be answering the questions and they, you know, whatever, they seem like

they're engaged, but they're not, their deepest self is not really engaged.

That they're more playing a role.

they're helping other people connect.

they're doing that.

some people describe the nine as the frame of a picture, you know, and where

the other people are, like the artwork.

Other people are the character and they're just the frame, and they

kind of disappear in the background.

They're there, but they're, nobody's looking at them, and they're not

really bringing them their full self, but when they do, they bring

their virtue, which is presence.

I'm here in the room.

I'm not just here for you.

I am here for you, but not just for you.

I'm here for me too.

I count,

Mm-hmm.

matter.

My opinions matter.

My needs matter as well.

Yeah.

So that presence, so serenity, unconditional love, authenticity,

transformation, clarity, courage, joy, innocence, and presence.

Nine faces of the soul.

When those nine virtues are shining, we shine.

yeah.

it makes me wanna build a friend group around, you know what I'm saying?

Just I just wanna build a friend group around the

Yeah.

and out how to get better together.

yeah.

sound, but it does, to your point.

and too, in a world where I think we, we wanna keep surrounding ourselves

with people who are just like us, how desperately we need one another,

Mm-hmm.

in in relationship.

And I think in the movement the mu movement toward justice in

particular, I and friends, as you're listening in, you can s there,

there are books and books and books.

all of this.

The beauty of this, Rob, is you've done the work over these

years to distill this for us.

And I want to get to conflict even a little bit more in

a more granular way here

Okay.

just listening to you right now, growing my competency around the

ones through nines in my life, that knowledge alone carries significant

impact as it relates to conflict.

Absolutely.

Because if I understand and fear of whether it's my partner or it's

somebody who's on my team, if I understand their motivation and their

fear, if I'm aware of their vice and believe with them in their virtue,

Mm-hmm.

then that radically transforms the way that I show up with that

Mm-hmm.

person.

Yeah.

and when we trip into conflict, because we will, because we're human.

If I have knowledge of motivation, fear, virtue, vice, I can use that knowledge.

and if I know the same things about myself, I can use this

knowledge to transcend the moment, to transform in the moment.

Yeah.

I can also see where the knowledge I can weaponize that

person's knowledge against them.

Yeah.

which is an act of violence to have the knowledge of the fear and the vice in

particular, and weaponize those things.

I suppose you could also do with the motivation and the virtue,

Yeah.

You know, I can see how that can accelerate conflict.

Mm-hmm.

the understanding itself is really helpful,

Mm-hmm.

as we're becoming conflict competent Everyday Peacemakers in this world.

Mm-hmm.

I do think though, and I'm gonna put you on on the spot a little bit.

I mean, you're, your command of this is to me.

Think with us if you can.

and if we can go through the types one more time as each type is moving

toward conflict or finds themself in conflict, what is a question what is a

tool that maybe each type could hold to would help them become resourceful in

the conflict rather than reactionary?

Mm-hmm.

I

Mm-hmm.

us each a little toehold into that.

And I think that would be really insightful for us.

Yeah.

The,

Wow.

We might all have the same question.

I mean, the que the question might be the same, but then the practice

associated with the question or the response to the question

probably is different for each type.

but I think the questions that we should all ask ourselves is, and I

alluded to this earlier, is one is like, where's this person trying to get?

they're trying to get home.

And it may look really un photogenic the way they're doing it.

Yeah,

And it may even be hurtful the way that they're doing it, but they're

actually trying to get home, which changes the calculus of the whole thing.

It's now, it's not just, I mean, conflict transformation is beautiful and powerful.

I know Jer and the Global Immersion team, you have incredible models for conflict

transformation and processes to do that.

But I think this Enneagram kind even helps reshape some of the motivation

for conflict transformation.

Transformation.

Can.

Yeah.

Go.

So, so, so now we can look at it in the light of I'm not

trying to just fix this issue.

I'm trying to help you get home.

yes.

Like my mission now is you know, I'm, I helped, I'm helping you get home.

I'm coaching this guy right now professional businessman, and he

is just, he wanted some coaching.

man, how do I. How do I relate better to my wife and understand her

better and my kids, and you know, they're teenagers and how do I just

Yeah.

communicate better with them?

and so as we're talking, it's well help them get home.

Hmm.

that, that's your role.

Help them find their way home.

And really,

could I even, I, what even occurs to me and what is I think equal,

equally helpful for me is the thought of, in this moment we're sojourners

sojourners together , toward home.

Yeah, yeah.

'cause I can even feel in myself if my job in the conflict is to help this person

journey, that invites me into a hierarchy, even or gives me a task that maybe what I

actually need is to recognize, hey, we're now in this together, journeying together

Yeah.

in this moment toward our collective home,

Yeah.

Yep.

base.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And we probably don't have time to go down this path, but really

the gateway home is the virtue.

So that you're having that virtue in mind.

if I can, you know, if I can help the three become his or her most authentic

self, I'm helping that person get home.

oh, that's so good,

if I can help the five focus in and get clarity, I'm helping that five get home.

I'm not just helping them be a better person.

I'm helping them be their truest self and get home.

Mm-hmm.

when we operate out of a home base, we just get along better

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

the world is a better place.

So, so yeah.

I think for conflict dynamics, and I mean, I think that's one thing

I do is okay, this, just remember this person's trying to get home.

Where are they?

Where are they trying to get?

And how can I help them get there?

Mm-hmm.

maybe a related question is.

what's triggering me?

which is another way of saying, am I feeling blocked from getting home?

You know, so this Enneagram seven, right?

I want Joy is my home, my way home.

I'm trying to get the joy and, you know, maybe this conflict is oh man, I'm getting

thrown back in the mire in the mud of

Yeah.

ugliness and dysfunction.

I want out, well, I need the world to help me lift out of that and get

back on the pathway towards joy again.

That's a long path and it's, it takes us down the developmental path.

So we don't have time for in this call...

Rob, I am just struck right now by what I'm calling a fuse-less society.

Hmm.

And what I mean by that is we don't have long fuses or short fuses.

Too many of us don't have fuses anymore.

And the process that you just even invited us to consider is like a fuse

growing or a fuse regrowing process.

I, what I mean is when conflict approaches us, too, many of us

immediately lose our executive function and move into reptilian thinking,

Yeah.

we're fighting or we're flying away.

Mm-hmm.

The question or the consideration, what is their home?

or how is this moment blocking me from my journey home?

That feels like a fuse growing invitation.

Mm-hmm.

And so for we, we who are listening in, again, like I, I teach

regularly that the most important tool for Peacemaking or conflict

transformation is belly breathing.

Mm-hmm.

And, and I wonder how, and that's literally just the stimulating the

vagus nerve through big, huge breaths

Mm-hmm.

push our genes way out,

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

And it's like the belly breathing itself gives us the

capacity to wonder those things.

Yeah.

and I'm just even wondering how like the process of belly breathing and

considering those two questions is enough to help us engage the conflict

Absolutely.

Yeah.

So that alone is enough for me to be

Yeah,

let me just practice that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

that's the big step.

that's the big

step.

that is.

gi now give us like, there are some actual practical tools that you would

recommend, but I think the universal

Mm-hmm.

Let's breathe deeper

Mm-hmm.

the bigger picture

Yeah.

to companion one another in this moment.

Yeah.

Perfect.

Perfect.

so here are just some smaller, more micro, tips, if you will, for each type.

So for the one in conflict or in a difficult situation.

and after you've kind of asked yourself that question, like,

where am I feeling triggered?

Where am I feeling blocked from getting home?

Where's this person trying to get to?

what's their virtue that I could help bring back into the reality?

And that takes time, that's not, you're not gonna have

an immediate answer to that.

You're gonna have to sit with that.

You might have to come back to that a week later.

You might have to come back, but two weeks later.

But then for the one I would tell the one in the space of

conflict is give yourself grace.

Hmm.

You know, the ones need to hear that.

Just give yourself grace.

'Cause they, the ones will beat themselves up faster and harder than

any other Enneagram type 'cause.

They want things to be right, and they know they're not totally right.

And so, in the midst of conflict, give yourself grace.

You're gonna feel some anger, you're gonna feel threatened,

you're gonna feel these things.

That's okay.

just feel it and don't beat yourself up with it.

For the twos I encourage 'em to prioritize authenticity.

In other words, be direct and ask people for what you need and for what you want.

'cause two often feel like I can't really be direct 'cause

that I need the more please.

I need to like, let you lead and I respond.

And so for the two is they gotta really consciously think about, okay, I need to

tell you what I need in the situation.

That's really good.

For the three.

Check in with your emotions.

The threes are really good at understanding everybody else's emotions.

They're very attuned to the emotions in the room where everybody's at.

They can respond to that really well, but they're, of all the Enneagram

types, they're typically the least attuned to their own feelings.

So I mean, they're the ones that gotta check in with your emotions.

Your emotions, not the emotions of the room, your emotions.

on.

Fours, I encourage fours to focus on the facts, not just the feelings.

So they'll instantly like.

Yeah.

Be consumed with the feelings in the space of conflict, the relationships,

the dynamics, and they're just, they're feeling everything on,

you know, on at a hyper level.

And so the fours need to be reminded, there, there are facts, there is like

data points, like focus on those and it's not, don't feel, but just don't

just feel, lean into the actual facts.

For fives, the Enneagram five, the investigator type,

pay attention to your body.

So fives classically live between the ear lobes.

I mean, fives are just here all the time.

And not attuned to the fact that Their body's breaking down that

their stress is, you know, taking over some portion of their body.

So for the five, they're like, man, how do I, how does my body actually feel?

what is a somatic result of this conflict on me?

For the Enneagram six, that loyalist trust yourself.

Trust yourself.

Sixes are great at trusting others.

They're great at trusting the room.

They're great at trusting leaders.

They're great teammates, but God is guiding them as well.

And we need to hear God's voice through them as well.

So trust yourself because you matter.

And how the Spirit is working through you.

we need that.

Yeah.

For the Enneagram seven I encourage the seven.

I encourage myself.

Sit with negative emotions.

we just, we want to blow by 'em.

Just boom.

Okay.

That was bad.

Yeah, that was that, that's that sucked.

Boom, I'm off.

And I don't learn.

I don't grow.

I don't even heal if I don't sit with it.

Now I say sit, I say that metaphorically sometimes the seven

actually needs to walk with negative emotions or run with negative

emotions or surfboard with negative.

I mean, they, something physical, something active, something this

movement, but consciously allow the negative emotions to be observed

Hmm.

and understood, confessed and

healed

Hmm.

rather than just blowing by them.

For the eight in the midst of conflict.

Encouragement would be to speak out vulnerability,

Hmm.

to, to not just be vulnerable, which is an amazing thing, but to

actually speak it out, which is like counterintuitive to everything at

eight is going on in their mind.

'cause they,

Mm-hmm.

aid, especially in the midst of conflict, to admit any

weakness, is like giving ground.

it's giving the enemy, a, a window in a doorway in.

But that's that upside down wisdom that the eight says, you know,

I feel this way in this moment.

And I, you know, and that's vulnerable, that's honest and real.

Let that change the dynamic, which

is gonna require the eight to trust God,

Mm-hmm.

to trust God with the outcome.

And not just to power through it and will it into being.

Yeah.

And then finally for the nine, that mediator person that can

maybe have that tendency to kind of fade into the background.

The encouragement for the nine is do the hard thing.

do the hard thing.

'Cause the nine, they want harmony.

they want everybody to be at peace.

And the temptation is let's make this as easy as possible.

As, as little, you know, we don't, let's not, yeah, let's not do the

hard thing, which might be being very honest or even confrontational.

Mm-hmm.

the nine needs to kind of break out of that safe space and do the hard thing.

Hmm.

So anyway, those are some little tips for each of the nine types.

I, this I'll be listening to this with my wife Jackie.

I'll be listening to this with my team.

You know, like this, I, I. You just took us around the horn

four times, in this conversation.

And I know that it's just the tip of the iceberg of this tool, but there are some

real contours that you just helped us with Rob and I'm so grateful that you have

found this tool that it has so shaped your life and that you've done the work for us

to be able to articulate it in this way to grow our collective conflict competency.

'cause we need it.

Hmm.

I think that one of the most hopeful alternative ways to show up on the

planet right now is centered and anchored in this case living into

virtue rather than vice when it

Mm-hmm.

Amen.

And I think too many have given up the hope that we can actually live that way.

Hmm.

And I think you just grew our hope a little bit that we

can, so I'm really grateful

Hmm.

Yeah, I, this maybe a final thought.

When I first got steeped into the Enneagram, and I've read more books

than I could count, but it was like 30 years ago and it was a long time back

when it was really kind of trendy.

I mean, it's still very popular,

Yeah.

deservedly so, it's powerful.

One of the trends though, I've seen Jer that I'm super encouraged by,

like in the early years, my early years, at least 30 years, you know,

it was really pretty self-focused.

It was like, I want to know me.

I, you know, which again good.

I, I'm not saying this is a bad thing.

I wanna understand me, I wanna understand my wiring, how I tick, but

it kind of didn't often go beyond that.

Now I see a real trend towards an otherness

Mm-hmm.

Good.

Yeah.

and I love that.

it's almost everybody that approaches me now.

It's can you help me with my company?

Can you help me with my team?

Can you help me with my elder board?

Can you can, it's it's othering.

It's I wanna understand the other person and what makes them tick

and how I can interact with them.

And so that's that.

As you started, that's that intersection of Enneagram and

conflict and team building and Yeah.

Yeah.

So any in any way right now for us to understand us and

how we relate to one another

Yeah,

and more constructively ah, let it happen.

yeah.

Amen.

Rob, you're you're a guide for my journey and now for so many

of us, we're super grateful.

I feel like there's another couple conversations coming all of

Yeah.

We were scratching the surface here.

we

Yeah.

the surface and I think in this time though, we got a really robust view how

understanding this tool and integrating this tool in our own lives and in

the lives of our teams and families

Hmm.

can help us transform conflict.

So thanks for this gift.

Wow.

Thanks.

soon.

Yeah.

Thanks for having me.

I've enjoyed it.

What a gift.

I hope you caught the steady thread of encouragement running

through this conversation.

Conflict doesn't have to divide us.

we understand ourselves and one another with honesty and compassion, conflict

truly becomes an opportunity for deeper connection, trust, and belonging.

Maybe today you heard something about your type or about someone

you love that gave you language for what happens when we get tense.

My encouragement is don't just file it away.

Try the practice Rob offered for your number the next time you feel your

shoulders tighten or your voice rise or your instinct to retreat, kick in.

Because here's the truth, goal isn't to avoid conflict.

It's to show up in conflict as our fullest, healthiest selves.

People who can name what's true, honor one another's humanity, and

imagine a way forward together.

Thanks for joining us for this episode of Mending Divides.

If you found it meaningful, share it with someone you love.

Subscribe wherever you listen and keep coming back as we continue to

learn how to be Everyday Peacemakers in a world divided by pain.

Until next time, keep showing up.

Stay curious and make peace right where you are.