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Poisoning, Starvation, and Forensic Analysis with guest Dr Adam Stern
Episode 4016th February 2024 • The Animal Welfare Junction • A. Michelle Gonzalez, DVM, MS
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We are back after a short break, and we couldn't have asked for a better guest to get us back on track. Dr. Adam Stern, professor of forensic pathology at the University of Florida, joins us to discuss poisonings and starvation in the veterinary forensic setting. This is an educational and informational episode and, while it is a difficult topic, there is nothing gory about our discussion.

This topic is good for everyone, but in particular an excellent resource for veterinarians and humane agents wanting to improve their knowledge and learn about resources available to them.

Dr. Stern also is one of the founders of the International Society for Animal Forensic Sciences, an organization we highly recommend for anyone involved in animal cruelty and neglect investigations regardless of their experience or knowledge level.

Websites of importance shared on this episode:

https://isafs.org

https://animalforensics.vetmed.ufl.edu

Mentioned in this episode:

10% off Tomahawk products

Use keyword keepithumane at checkout at livetrap.com

Keep it Humane Podcast Network

The Animal Welfare Junction is part of the Keep It Humane Podcast Network. Visit keepithumane.com/podcastnetwork to find us and our amazing animal welfare podcast partners.

Transcripts

DrG:

Hi and welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction.

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This is your host Dr.

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G and our music is written

and produced by Mike Sullivan.

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I want to apologize to our

listeners because I have not put

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anything out in about six weeks.

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It's been crazy six weeks, but we are

back and we have a great guest today.

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We have Dr.

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Adam Stern, Professor of Forensic

Pathology at the University of Florida

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and founder of the International

Society for Animal Forensic Science.

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So I'm really honored to have

you as a guest today, Dr.

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Stern.

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So thank you for taking the time

and welcome to the junction.

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Dr. Stern: Well, thanks for having me.

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I'm excited to be here.

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I actually listened to a couple

of your talks earlier this week.

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Uh, so I like what you're doing

and I'm glad to be a part of it.

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DrG: Thank you.

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Thank you so much.

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So let's start, you know, I know

a little bit about you, but our

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listeners may not know who you are.

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So let's start by letting our

listeners know about how you got

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started and the path that brought

you to where you are today.

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Dr. Stern: Sure.

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Well, I have a non traditional path of

sort of how I became a veterinarian.

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You know, we talked to most veterinarians,

veterinary students, and they all

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wanted to be a veterinarian since

they were born or two years old.

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That wasn't my dream, right?

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I, I went to, uh, college and I

actually, when I was there, uh,

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was interested in counterterrorism.

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That was, that was a

thing that I wanted to do.

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Um, but my college advisors didn't

really, um, think that was a, a good idea.

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Um, and so they really pushed me in

another direction and, and, and that's

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how I figured out I, I, I like biology,

veterinary medicine sounded interesting.

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Um, and, and so that's how I got there.

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I just, You know, never worked in the

veterinarian's office until till college.

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So I didn't really know

what I was getting into.

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And it wasn't until, you know,

going through vet school, you're

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like, well, I like horses, but

I don't want to work on horses.

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Zoo animals are cool, but I don't

want to work on zoo animals.

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Um, and so I made my way to, um, so

the, the, the back services, so like

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radiology, pathology, things like that.

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And then I decided pathology

was really where I wanted to go.

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So I kind of got there in a,

in a non traditional direction.

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Uh, but you know, I look back at it and

I'm like, I guess I made all the right

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choices to get to where I am today.

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So I'm not complaining.

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DrG: Yeah.

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I think that everything kind

of happens for a reason, right?

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Hey, because I think that, I mean,

you're doing great things there.

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And I joke with my staff that

you're going to be my boss someday.

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So in like four or five years, watch

out for my resume because I'm coming.

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I just really, I just, uh, you know,

and we're going to talk a little bit

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about the services that you guys do, but

I have used your services and I think

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it's, it's a great benefit, not just

to veterinarians in forensics, but just

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humane officers, animal control officers.

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law enforcement.

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So, um, yeah.

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So thank you for sharing

what you have done.

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And now we'll start with our topic.

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So we're going to be talking about

poisonings and starvation that

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can be somewhat difficult topics.

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So for our listeners, if this is

hard for you to listen, hit the pause

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button, focus on something else for

a bit, and then you can come back.

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Um, let's start with

talking about poisoning.

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So in my experience, most pet owners,

when I was in general practice, most

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people that came in claiming that the

neighbor killed the dog or the cat

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and that it was poison, very few of

those actually, I can't even think

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of any of them that were true that

the that the neighbor did poison it.

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Um, what is your

experience with with that?

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Dr. Stern: So, yeah, Poisoning

cases in general, they, they kind of

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present non specifically and sometimes

they're not poisoning at all, right?

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Like you said, a lot of them are, are not.

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There's a natural process, but it kind

of unexpected demise of the animal.

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Um, but you still have to look

into it and, and, you know,

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consider it as a, a differential.

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Uh, in my experience, uh, we actually

are, are doing a lot of retrospective

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work and we have found that the

neighbor sometimes does do it.

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Uh, you know, it really does happen.

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Uh, but again, that's not,

that's not the commonality.

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A lot of times it's,

it's, it's something else.

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Um, but they're, they're really

difficult cases to handle.

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You really have to invest a lot of

time and honestly, a lot of money,

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um, to really figure out, you know,

what the poison is, if it actually

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was a poison in the first place.

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DrG: Yeah, most of the poisonings that

I saw were what we thought primarily

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accidental, right, like rat poison or

ethylene glycol, that kind of stuff, but

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one of the things that I think people

have a misconception, and it's probably

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because of the CSI effect, is that they

think that something is poison, and then

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just Send blood to the lab and see what,

you know, they expect to see the graph

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and say, yeah, this is what happened.

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So, what is the, what is the truth as far

as what it actually takes to find out what

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poisons may be in a, in a dog or a cat?

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Dr. Stern: Yeah, so you're,

you're absolutely right.

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That CSI effect, you know, I always, I

always talk about, you know, you have this

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45 minutes to, you know, watch that, that

detective show, that crime scene show.

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And in about 30 seconds, they put

the sample in the machine, it turned

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around and it prints out and voila,

you got your, you got your answer.

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Uh, so far from the truth.

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It's really just not even funny.

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Um, when we look for, for toxins.

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Uh, there's a plethora of different, um,

analytical techniques that one can use.

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We have GCMS, LCMS, we have, uh,

immunoassays for screening these

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cases, uh, but there is no one test

that fits all poisons and toxins.

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Uh, heavy metals are going to be

identified differently than say,

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uh, ethylene glycol, which will

be different than organophosphate.

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So, uh, we really have to consider.

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Uh, so much more than just the, here's

the blood sample or a blood might not

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be, uh, the best, um, substance to

even test, uh, you know, if it's a

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more of a chronic intoxication, um,

in the live animal, you're probably

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gonna be looking at urine, right?

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A little blood test.

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The toxins probably not

circulating in the blood anymore.

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It's probably been

deposited in all the organs.

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And so we have to really consider

when the intoxication happened.

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Um, you know, same thing.

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If it's per acute, animal literally

eat something and drops dead.

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Um, we're not gonna be looking at urine.

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We really want to look at the

vomit or the stomach content.

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So again, you have to think

about the clinical picture.

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Uh, in my case, the autopsy findings

and then, you know, what our

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list is of differentials for the

toxin and then the test itself.

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So lots, lots more than just,

you know, 30 seconds on TV.

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DrG: Yeah, no, absolutely.

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And what, what is the importance as far

as like the history that people give you?

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Dr. Stern: So the history,

it's, it's important because

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say like the pet owner, right?

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They, they know their animals really well.

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Um, and I had a case recently

where, uh, the owner basically said

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I was able to pet the cat and he

said, that is completely abnormal.

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That cat would never let me touch it.

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And now I can pet it.

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And then unfortunately it,

it died shortly thereafter.

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Um, but even subtle signs like that

can be mean a lot, doesn't say what

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it was, but it kinds of starts to give

us clues like this animal is not doing

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well or, you know, abnormalities.

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But the history is important, but you

also have to look at the clinical picture.

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The history can be kind of, you

know, kind of saying, Oh, it's a

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screaming, uh, a malicious poisoning

case or something like that.

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But then when you start to actually

look at the animal, you're like, well,

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no, that's really not what's going on.

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So use that history for sort of initial

guidance, but then you have to let our

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science, veterinary medicine, uh, really

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put us in that direction of, of

which fork in the road, which

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differentials we need to consider.

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DrG: Yeah, I had, uh, I had a case

where a lady brought in a cat and

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she said that the neighbor poisoned

the cat because the cat was fine

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and then the cat was stumbling

and acting drunk and then it died.

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And when she brought it in on necropsy,

it actually had a urethral obstruction.

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So, it was blocked and the changes that it

underwent from the toxins are very similar

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to what some people would expect that an

animal that was poisoned would look like.

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So, can you share some of the cases

that you have worked on with toxins

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and how you have worked through them?

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Dr. Stern: Yeah, sure.

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I mean, the, the, the case that

you're presenting right there,

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the urethral obstruction, I mean,

that, that history, it's obviously

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ethylene glycol, antifreeze ingestion.

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Um, and we see, we see a lot of that.

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Um, so we, we actually do a lot of

research and some of the research we

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do is on, on how to, um, more readily

document those cases and, um, actually

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doing, uh, postmortem chemistry

to, um, estimate antemortem blood

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values for like BUN and creatinine.

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Um, and so we're doing all of that, but

that's, that's, I would say, um, for

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us, for, um, probably the most common

one that we see, um, readily available

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for, for people to, um, have at their

house, whether it's intentional or

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accidental, that's out of the realm of

the veterinary forensic pathologist.

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We just say, this is what it is.

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And then the investigator, you know, Goes

and does their part of the investigation.

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So they're going to be the ones who

are going to be looking more into that.

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Um, but that's quite common.

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That's actually really easy

for us to, to diagnose.

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Um, and we, we do that a lot.

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Um, then you get into some of the

things like the anticoagulants

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again, something that you would see.

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Then you get into more difficult

ones, such as the illicit drugs.

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Um, you know, whether an animal

is fed, um, a laced meatball, you

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know, some sort of food material.

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Um, once we start seeing things, we

asked the clinician, the owner, uh,

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what What do you feed the animal?

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We always ask those sorts of questions on

our, on our submission forms because we

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look at the stomach contents and you're

like, well, you say this is what you

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fed, but you have this in your stomach.

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Um, so that doesn't match.

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And so that might be a little

clue, uh, to go down some of these

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more sort of acute per acute.

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Intoxication.

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And so, uh, illicit drugs would be one.

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Um, uh, pesticides,

insecticides would be another.

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Typically, they cause rapid death.

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Um, the animal doesn't linger on for days.

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Typically, they eat it.

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Um, and they get pretty sick really fast

and you just find them deceased in their

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backyard or wherever they would have been.

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Um, so, you know, I think we see

a lot of different things but

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uh, again, tailoring what we see.

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With our sciences, uh, really help us.

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DrG: I know that also in clinical practice

when animals, especially dogs, would have

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like vomiting or diarrhea and the owner

was not sure, people would always blame

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it on the control, like weed control and,

uh, fertilizer and that kind of stuff.

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So is there any truth as far as the

toxicity level of just stuff that's

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spread out in the yard to treat the yard?

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Dr. Stern: Yeah, so we've, we've, we've

worked on a number of those, those

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kinds of cases where there's some lawn

stuff put down and then the dog is sick

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shortly thereafter, or, you know, within

a couple of days, um, and, and really

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to my experience is a lot of those

animals have some other disease that was.

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Subclinical asymptomatic and it started

to rear its its ugly head at that point.

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Um, and then there's others where

unfortunately um, you know, we we don't

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find any Gross findings at autopsy.

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We, we do a histology looking at the

tissues and we don't see anything.

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And then we offer up doing

some toxicology analysis.

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And, um, again, because it comes

down to finances, um, people

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just don't go that next step.

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And so probably some of those cases do

have, um, some validity, but I think a

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lot of times it comes down to finances.

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And it just doesn't get

fully, uh, worked up.

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DrG: Another thing that people

get concerned about is what

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you brought up as far as asking

people what they feed their dog.

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It's about potential toxins in the food.

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Um, how often, how often do you see that?

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Dr. Stern: Uh, well, in our

lab, we actually, we don't

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get a lot of those cases.

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Um, they, they seem to, there's different

mechanisms, um, reporting these to the,

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the, the federal government where they go

through, uh, some of those other channels.

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Um, we've seen a few.

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A lot of times it's going to be more of

the Bacterial contamination might be in

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there, maybe a salmonella or, uh, some

other bacteria, but we honestly just

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don't, we just don't see a lot of them.

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DrG: If somebody is concerned,

especially like a veterinarian, if

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somebody thinks that an animal has

been, uh, poisoned, what are going

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to be the best samples to take

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and submit and how they're

going to go about doing that?

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Dr. Stern: Yeah.

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So you, you have a difference between

the live animal and deceased animal,

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uh, because the samples we can get are,

are, are obviously vastly different.

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Um, but you have to think about, is

it an acute intoxication or is it

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more of a chronic, did it happen?

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You know, days ago.

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Uh, so with the acute intoxications,

and this is not an exhaustive list,

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you have to think about things, uh,

where the toxins going to be, so vomit.

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Okay, that's going to be a good place.

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Um, gastric contents, uh, goes

along with the vomit, uh, blood,

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because if you inject, ingest it,

it's going to go into circulation.

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And so we want to get

things that are earlier on.

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Um, if it's cutaneous contact, like

something is put on the animal,

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then, then obviously for skin from

that area would be, would be useful.

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Um, In the more chronic cases, again,

it's going to be more of what's in the

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organs and sort of downstream to that.

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So, uh, urine for a live animal,

even feces, sometimes, uh, it's

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going to be excreted in the

feces as well as the urine.

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So that's potentially a way to get it.

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Uh, with the autopsy, it's sort of

the same, the same thought process.

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If it's acute, we go for the, the

bloods, the, the stomach contents,

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um, and even liver, um, it's cause

it's going to be likely metabolized in

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the liver or in the kidneys, and then

for the more chronic, we do organs

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as well as the urine.

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So it kind of, again,

just kind of depends.

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Um, but then you also want to collect

other samples because maybe that drug, um,

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or toxin is maybe, um, likes a lot of fat.

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And so we always collect

some sort of fatty tissues.

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Um, and really just a wide array of

tissues just in case, um, we were

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dealing with some sort of odd situation.

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DrG: I just finished the Forensic

Science Masters at the University of

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Florida, and one of the things that

they tell us also about collection is

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the vitreous fluid inside of the eye.

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Is that something that is

done in animals as well?

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Dr. Stern: So yeah, so we do do that.

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It's good for like in livestock,

for example, testing for nitrates

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and nitrites for cattle, sort of

the acute intoxication for them.

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So yes, we do it.

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Uh, we can detect a number

of different drugs in it.

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Um, even, uh, looking at the human side,

they use vitreous, uh, for a bunch of

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different drugs, so that is definitely

something that you can collect and

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in our lab, we use it for vitreous

chemistry, um, which I kind of alluded

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to earlier with, uh, the antifreeze

cases, um, because you can look at

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things such as vitreous urea nitrogen,

you could look at the electrolytes

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a little bit, um, some just go up.

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With post mortem change, so like

potassium, so it's not really going

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to help you to estimate what it

was in a live animal, um, and even

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glucose levels, uh, so we can identify

theoretically, uh, a diabetic animal

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with a massively elevated glucose levels.

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So, um, you can use it for toxins,

but you can also use it just for sort

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of general, um, health of the animal.

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DrG: Is there any, um, time limit or time

frame that the samples have to be done

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before you cannot get any information.

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Or is the information stay there

for a really long period of time?

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Dr. Stern: So that's a,

it's a great question.

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Um, and it depends.

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Uh, some, some compounds will

break down pretty quickly.

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Their half lives are pretty short

where others, they last forever.

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Um, and I don't mean literally forever.

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That breakdown takes

them a very long time.

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Uh, there was a study looking

at, uh, panel Barbara tall.

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And they were looking at

composting of, of pigs.

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And there was also, I believe, a study

in horses, and they found that that

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stuff lasted for years, um, lasted in the

decomposed remains lasted in the soil.

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So some of these toxins, uh, potentially

can be there for, for really long times.

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And we see the issues when, um,

maybe a dog digs up a buried horse

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carcass and gets intoxicated.

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So that we could detect really easily

in, in pretty decomposed remains

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where some other toxins, um, you

have to get to them much faster.

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Like ethylene glycol.

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Um, you need to get that really early

in the phase because it's going to be

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metabolized and excreted and you're

just not going to find it in the body.

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DrG: Is there a cool case that you

have worked recently of toxicity

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that you can share with us?

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Dr. Stern: um honestly, I I

really like the antifreeze cases.

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Um Not because they're they're

relatively straightforward.

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I just think they are um one of these

cases where you know, you get the

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accidents, but then There are truly In

here in Florida, a lot of malicious cases.

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Um, and so being able to identify and

document those cases, um, it's really

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rewarding because there's, there's

a high chance that the end result

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will result in a prosecution if,

if it's determined to be malicious.

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Um, and so it's really straightforward.

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Easy to, um, present that to a court,

to a jury, um, for them to understand.

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I like the, the challenges though,

of some of these unusual cases like

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organophosphates, um, and the carbamates,

uh, because those, those cases, um, you

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do the autopsy and you just, you just

don't see, you just don't see anything.

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There's really no pathology.

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And so you have to start that

sort of treasure hunt of find

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that toxin and find that poison.

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Um, they're expensive, uh, to, to

do that because you, you typically,

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you're like, well, what do I do?

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And so you could do a shotgun approach

and just kind of just do, um, some

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random testing, or you can just

start to go a bit more specific.

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Um, and so.

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It'll depend on the case, obviously.

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But if you have three, four or five

animals who, um, all of a sudden

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they're happy and healthy and then

they're dead, um, then, you know,

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the, the stakes are kind of a bit

higher, uh, because it's, you know,

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definitely, um, screaming poison,

uh, in, in a lot of those cases, so.

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You know, you can do that.

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And then, uh, barbiturate toxicity is

also something that really interests me.

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And we are doing, uh, some research,

um, not only for deceased animals, but

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also, um, living animals, and we're,

we're trying to develop, um, or work

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up a way, um, to diagnose it in the

live animals so that they can get,

335

:

uh, a more timely diagnosis and, uh.

336

:

Tailored treatment to that.

337

:

Um, so a lot of it's just

gonna be symptomatic care.

338

:

Uh, but kind of help with the

getting that diagnosis a bit quicker.

339

:

DrG: So let's jump into starvation cases.

340

:

Um, I've had the opportunity to work

with a couple of starvation cases that

341

:

actually resulted in the death of the

animal, but most of the starvation

342

:

cases are going to be like neglect,

cruelty, hoarding cases where the

343

:

animals are still alive and you kind of

manage those really, really different.

344

:

So let's start with the live animals.

345

:

What, what determines if an animal has

been starved as far as the, the findings,

346

:

the physical examination findings, the

body condition, that kind of stuff.

347

:

Dr. Stern: Yeah.

348

:

So, so obviously I'm, I'm the

pathologist, so I don't treat

349

:

things that have a heartbeat, right.

350

:

Uh, uh, but.

351

:

You know, I mean, they're, they're

going to look the same, the, the,

352

:

they're going to be obviously emaciated.

353

:

And it's really important for you to do

your, your body condition scores and your

354

:

muscle scoring, uh, because these animals

are going to be losing fat, uh, initially,

355

:

um, and really only in the end does that,

does that protein catabolism really.

356

:

Um, go into high gear.

357

:

Um, but besides that, I think the,

the biggest thing is it's actually

358

:

on, it's on the investigator really

at the very beginning, um, to be sure

359

:

that, you know, at the scene, um, you,

you capture obviously that scene with

360

:

photography and all that, but don't

just go and give the dog a treat.

361

:

Um, you know, don't just give them some

water, uh, because you have to be sure

362

:

you, you get that on video, you know, the

first time to get food, the first time

363

:

to get water, um, so that you can show,

look, Hey, I just grabbed this stuff

364

:

out of my truck and the dog just ate it.

365

:

Um, because a lot of times you see,

um, in these cases, the, uh, defense

366

:

is always, well, I tried feeding them.

367

:

Um, I gave them.

368

:

All this great high quality food, or, you

know, this crap food or whatever it might

369

:

be, and the dog just wouldn't eat it.

370

:

But now we have on video, look, we

just randomly gave a small amount

371

:

of food and they ate it ravenously.

372

:

So I think that's really important

and actually really helpful

373

:

information for the veterinarian.

374

:

Because in the, the diagnosis

of starvation is really

375

:

a diagnosis of exclusion.

376

:

Yeah, you really go down the

fact that, look, there's, there's

377

:

nothing else wrong with them.

378

:

These animals are, do not exhibit

cachexia, which is, you know,

379

:

that, that same sort of emaciated

condition, but for very different

380

:

reasons, they are, they're sick.

381

:

They have a systemic disease or even one

organ is affected, but the animal is is

382

:

really sick, like chronic renal disease.

383

:

So I think, um, really, with those cases,

it's the job of the veterinarian to just

384

:

prove that there's no other disease.

385

:

So, you know, doing.

386

:

Uh, blood work, fecal exams, and yes,

you're probably going to find some

387

:

parasites in them, uh, because of

the conditions, but it's not going to

388

:

typically rise to that level unless

you have a massive parasite infection.

389

:

Um, so doing your basic workup, um, and,

you know, getting rid of differentials

390

:

will really back you into the

starvation by exogenous circumstances.

391

:

DrG: Yeah, that's a great point.

392

:

There was, uh, several years ago,

there was a humane officer, it was

393

:

well over 80 dogs that they rescued

from, uh, from a starvation case.

394

:

And, well, a neglect case.

395

:

And I want to say it was a dog

fighting case, but I don't remember.

396

:

But the owner said that the dogs

could not gain weight because

397

:

they had a genetic problem.

398

:

So, you know, that was

kind of like the defense.

399

:

So the officer, the investigative

officer called me and he's like, how

400

:

am I going to prove that these dogs

don't have this genetic condition?

401

:

And I told him, just feed them, just

402

:

Dr. Stern: feed them

403

:

DrG: and then see if they gain weight.

404

:

And if they gain weight,

then it's not genetic.

405

:

And he, and it's such a simple answer

that you just don't think about.

406

:

And they fed them and the dogs fattened

up and then that was the end of that.

407

:

So it was a pretty simple

solution to, uh, what, what

408

:

seemed to be a difficult question.

409

:

Dr. Stern: Yeah, and that, and that

brings up another good point is you're

410

:

going to want to periodically weigh

them, periodically take photographs of

411

:

them, because if you have this dog that

comes in, say on the Purina scale, it's

412

:

a one out of nine, um, which is important

to always say what scale you're using.

413

:

So, um, people can actually go

back and look and don't just say

414

:

it's a, a three out of five and

you know, what scale are you using?

415

:

I have no idea.

416

:

Um, cause all scales are

really not created equal.

417

:

Um, but weigh them, take those

photographs of them to show that

418

:

change, you know, over the weeks of

recovery because they're not going

419

:

to eat and get better in two days.

420

:

It's going to be this long, long

process, but you're going to see

421

:

that that progressive change.

422

:

, DrG: I just recently shared a case

that that I was working on and

423

:

a lot of people got gut reaction

was, Oh my God, feed those dogs.

424

:

And people don't understand that

you can't just throw food at them,

425

:

that there is the whole refeeding

syndrome and you can actually cause

426

:

more problems than not, if you start

feeding these, these starved animals,

427

:

Dr. Stern: Yep, exactly true.

428

:

Yeah.

429

:

You can't just say, here's your, your,

I'm just going to make up a number of

430

:

your 2000 calorie diet, um, because you,

you're, you haven't had food for so long,

431

:

you'll probably end up killing them.

432

:

So.

433

:

You got to do it slowly.

434

:

DrG: Let's go more on your side on the

animals that do die from, from starvation.

435

:

So what are going to be the most

important things that you're

436

:

looking for during that necropsy?

437

:

Dr. Stern: So it's, it's kind of similar.

438

:

So again, we're going to look at, you

know, their fat stores or lack of fat.

439

:

Um, we'll look at their,

their muscle, see how.

440

:

Poorly or well muscled,

they are that sort of thing.

441

:

Um, but then we're going

to go organ by organ.

442

:

Um, every system will get examined for

Um evidence of disease, uh, you know

443

:

these organs with starvation they'll

atrophy So yes, they'll be smaller,

444

:

but we want to show how there's

no, you know, systemic inflammatory

445

:

disease or cancer, renal failure.

446

:

Something like that to explain why this

one animal looks the way it does Um,

447

:

you know, so we're gonna, we're gonna

be doing all that, looking at really

448

:

the entire body, um, but with the

advantage of being able to look at the

449

:

organs themselves and not just looking

at the blood work for organ function.

450

:

DrG: When somebody is asking about

cases of starvation, they want

451

:

to know about the cause of death.

452

:

And then they also want to

know about the time of death.

453

:

So what are the ways that we can determine

time of death on these starvation cases?

454

:

Dr. Stern: So, time of death is

just a whole other ball game.

455

:

Um, there's different ways to, to try to

estimate it and in veterinary medicine,

456

:

um, and even in human medicine, it's,

it's not an exact science, um, you know,

457

:

there's always a new method that someone

comes out with, um, but a lot of it is

458

:

going to be very specific to a certain

location or even research, um, you know,

459

:

very specific parameters, um, and, and,

and, um, For me, it's entomology would

460

:

be it's the well validated, um, and

so we can use the insects, you know,

461

:

if we have some, some maggots, some

pupa, um, on the body, but, or, or even

462

:

around the body, because we have to

look there as well, that's going to help

463

:

us a lot, giving us sort of a minimum

time of colonization for those insects,

464

:

and so that would Move over to, um,

estimate in that post mortem interval.

465

:

So that's really, um, just one way, but

there's a lot of research out there.

466

:

There was, um, I'm working with

a student right now and she

467

:

tried to use, uh, some immune

immunohistochemistry, some flow cytometry.

468

:

Um, but there's all sorts of things

we talked about vitreous humor.

469

:

Uh, so looking at potassium levels in

the eye, um, you know, so there's lots

470

:

of different ways, but a lot of them are,

471

:

especially in the animal realm,

where they're really in its infancy,

472

:

um, I'm trying to work these up.

473

:

Uh, so that's why for me, I fall

back to entomology, uh, especially

474

:

when I have any insect activity

going to be probably very helpful.

475

:

DrG: And I have to say, I hate insects and

that I'm scared of insects, but I learned

476

:

to love insects from my entomology class

during my veterinary forensics training.

477

:

Um, and, and yeah, it's like people

think, again, CSI effect, that

478

:

somebody just looks and some larva

out in the field and says, this

479

:

has been dead for about 12 days.

480

:

And that's not how that works.

481

:

I learned that the hard way because during

my class, I remember at the very end,

482

:

we had to do a time of death estimation.

483

:

And my result was something

like 54 to 800 days.

484

:

And I was like, clearly

I'm doing something wrong.

485

:

And I just redid it so many times.

486

:

And yeah, it was like 54 to 800 days.

487

:

But it's not as specific as

people, as people may think.

488

:

Dr. Stern: Oh, yeah.

489

:

Um, and I just and just to go back to the

starvation thing for a second, because

490

:

I wanted to say, you know, for for me,

the the animal is no longer with us.

491

:

So it's deceased.

492

:

And so I don't have that luxury of

feeding them like we talked about in

493

:

the live animals, see what they do.

494

:

So one of the things we actually

looked for is foreign material.

495

:

Um, in their stomachs and in their

intestines and in whatever fecal

496

:

matter they have, because these

animals are hungry, um, they're

497

:

going to eat anything they can.

498

:

So non nutritious substances, styrofoam,

plastic, um, anything like that is

499

:

going to be very valuable, uh, for us

to say, look, they, they had some sort

500

:

of appetite, they clearly can swallow.

501

:

And so it gives us a little more

oomph to being able to, to sort of

502

:

back our way into that starvation.

503

:

So in

504

:

DrG: the two cases that, that I examined,

um, and one of them, the owner said

505

:

that the dog had parvo and it died.

506

:

Um, and then the, the other

one there was proof that they

507

:

had actually been fighting.

508

:

It was a domestic violence situation

and they literally starved the dog.

509

:

Um.

510

:

But one of the things that I submitted

was femur for bone marrow analysis.

511

:

So, can you explain what, what

is that, uh, and what's the

512

:

information that we can get from it?

513

:

Dr. Stern: Yeah, so, so the femur

analysis, and you're looking specifically

514

:

at percentage of bone marrow fat.

515

:

And so, for me, my viewpoint on that

is that's really an adjunct, uh, to

516

:

Your autopsy, um, your autopsy is

going to be looking at all the systems

517

:

and it's looking at fat stores.

518

:

And one of the things that we

routinely look at, whether or not

519

:

you're a starvation case or not, is

what does your bone marrow look like?

520

:

Um, so in an adult animal,

bone marrow is mostly fat.

521

:

Okay.

522

:

Um, I look at bone marrow.

523

:

So like a can of dog food or

a can of cat food, it is some

524

:

basic macronutrients in there.

525

:

You have water, which is moisture.

526

:

You have carbohydrates, fats, and

protein basically is what you got.

527

:

And then there's ash, which

is a very small percentage.

528

:

Now in bone marrow.

529

:

Um, Adult, mostly fat.

530

:

There's no carbohydrates.

531

:

There's very little protein.

532

:

Um, there's some ash and

very little moisture.

533

:

And so, um, people use that, um, to sort

of quantify the percentage of fat, which.

534

:

For me, I have already

looked at bone marrow.

535

:

I've already said there's

gelatinous change to the marrow.

536

:

I've looked at it under a

microscope to show there's no fat.

537

:

And, and really the fat

analysis, all it's doing for me,

538

:

it's just giving me a number.

539

:

It's, it's more objective.

540

:

Um, and so we're going to give a number

to my subjective, uh, interpretation.

541

:

And so that's really what,

what you can use it for.

542

:

You can't use it to diagnose starvation.

543

:

Um, because it's, it's

not specific to a cause.

544

:

It just says you have very little fat.

545

:

Um, and then you also do have to

be careful, though, that there

546

:

will be cases where you have

very little fat in your marrow.

547

:

Um, but you didn't starve to death.

548

:

So you take a dog who has leukemia, right?

549

:

The neoplastic cells are actually going

to displace and um, You know, efface the

550

:

fat, so that animal is actually going

to have very low fat in its marrow.

551

:

And so if you looked at that

just by itself, you'd end

552

:

up with the wrong diagnosis.

553

:

Um, so any tests that you do, regardless

if it's a fat test or a blood test or

554

:

a toxin test, you have to look at it

in totality and not just as a silo by

555

:

itself, because it's only going to give

you a small piece of information that

556

:

you have to look at it all together.

557

:

Um, and so, uh, I get asked a lot, you

know, if I just send you a bone, well,

558

:

will you tell me anything about it?

559

:

I'm like, I could, we could tell you

that, but we have to look at it in

560

:

the context of, of everything else.

561

:

DrG: So in the, in the cases

that, that we were working, it

562

:

was kind of like that, right?

563

:

The animals were starting to decompose.

564

:

So is, are they missing,

they had no subcutaneous fat.

565

:

So we were thinking that

that's what was going on.

566

:

The stomach, uh, one of the things

that I found in the stomach and was

567

:

that there was like a sludge in there.

568

:

And at first I thought that it was food,

but then discussing with other people,

569

:

I was informed that they will create

somewhat of a sludge in the stomach,

570

:

um, just from the acids and that kind

of stuff that can be confused with food.

571

:

So can you tell us a

little bit about that?

572

:

Dr. Stern: Yeah, so the, these animals

sometimes have gastric ulcers, so

573

:

they'll be bleeding in there, and so

that mixed with the gastric contents,

574

:

the acids and fluids, um, can get

that more sludgy appearance to it.

575

:

Um, so that's also one thing we look

for is do we have gastric ulcers, um,

576

:

because they might have some GI bleeding.

577

:

DrG: So overall, I mean, clearly it's

going to be easier if there's a starvation

578

:

case and somebody wants to consult with

you for you to do the complete necropsy

579

:

rather than look at different samples.

580

:

Is there something, though, if that is

not possible, what kind of things can

581

:

you guide veterinarians in trying to

determine if there was a starvation case?

582

:

Dr. Stern: Yeah, so I think if,

you know, consulting on a case,

583

:

um, basically if someone else is

doing the autopsy, it's always, you

584

:

know, look at everything, right?

585

:

Look at, at everything from the, you

know, the tip of the nose, the tail

586

:

to the feet and everything in between.

587

:

Um, and then work with your pathologist

because they're the ones who can look

588

:

at the tissues under the microscope.

589

:

So we can say, yes, we

don't have any disease here.

590

:

You have all of your your

data that you've collected.

591

:

And it's a really great way to a

have more than one person look at a

592

:

case because it's always better to

have consults and other specialists

593

:

to help back up your claims, um,

and sort of get us to that point.

594

:

So, um, you know, if you think it's a

starvation case and all you submit to

595

:

someone to look at under the microscope

is lung, that's not very helpful.

596

:

Um, so really, you know, give us a

full set of tissues so we can actually

597

:

give you some powerful data that again,

combining with yours, um, really.

598

:

Again, helps, helps the science

show what was or was not going on.

599

:

DrG: How does the University of Florida

help with these cases and what is

600

:

the process that humane officers or

veterinarians, uh, take to send you

601

:

samples or consult with you guys?

602

:

Dr. Stern: Yeah, so we, we

work with with everyone, right?

603

:

We'll work with the, uh, the investigator.

604

:

So whether it's law enforcement,

animal control, animal services,

605

:

depending on whose jurisdiction it is

and, and who does what in that area,

606

:

uh, veterinarians, uh, attorneys.

607

:

Uh, and even the pet owner will,

will work directly with them, uh,

608

:

through their veterinarian to sort

of help them through the process.

609

:

But, uh, we, we pretty

much do everything here.

610

:

We do obviously the forensic autopsies.

611

:

Um, we have two, uh, fellows of

veterinary forensic pathology here.

612

:

Um, and so there's going to be

typically, uh, one or two sets of eyes on

613

:

on every case that comes to our lab.

614

:

Um, but we do, uh, whether it's in

house or in consultation with other

615

:

institutions or laboratories, um,

we do, uh, some forensic toxicology.

616

:

Uh, entomology, DNA analysis, uh, we

even, um, work with people who do, uh,

617

:

photogrammetry and so that's for, uh,

often for wildlife, you know, based

618

:

on photographs, how is that image, uh,

whatever in that image, if it's a deer,

619

:

for example, is that the same one that's

You know, we have a dead on the road or

620

:

somebody poached that sort of thing so

we can kind of match the photographs.

621

:

We do, , crime scene response.

622

:

So we'll go out there and help

with the investigators, um,

623

:

whether it's documenting the scene

or helping with an excavation.

624

:

Um, and even if we have live

animals, although I don't practice

625

:

live animal medicine, um, we help

with logistics and we help, um,

626

:

identify people who can help them.

627

:

Uh, so if we can't do it, we will

100 percent say, you know, we're

628

:

not the ones for that, but you

can go, um, to this person and

629

:

they'll, they'll totally help you.

630

:

DrG: Cool.

631

:

And how, what's the website

or how can people get ahold of

632

:

you guys to, to do a request?

633

:

Dr. Stern: Yeah.

634

:

So actually we have a

new website rolling out.

635

:

Um, we literally hit the go button the

other day, so the site, uh, should go

636

:

live very soon, but it's, it's actually,

I'll give you the new address it's animal

637

:

forensics.vetmed.ufl.edu and that will

take everyone to everything that we do um,

638

:

whether it's the services the the research

or even the teaching and outreach that we

639

:

do so it's going to be a one stop shop Um,

we have several other websites But we're

640

:

going to close them all down and and kind

of direct them all to this this one site

641

:

Which we're really excited about this

642

:

DrG: Excellent.

643

:

And we'll make sure to share that

because it's a great resource.

644

:

So finally, I want to close by

talking about the International

645

:

Society of Animal Forensic Sciences.

646

:

So what led you to

found this organization?

647

:

Dr. Stern: So, um, I founded

this organization with, with two

648

:

other, um, individuals, uh, Dr.

649

:

Jason Bird and Adam Leith.

650

:

And it is Geared towards the investigator,

um, because they, they, you know, they

651

:

have a hard job, uh, going out there

and investigating all these cases.

652

:

And sometimes the investigator, um,

really doesn't have that background

653

:

in animal cruelty investigations

and forensic investigations.

654

:

And so we thought this was a, a, a

great way and, and something that

655

:

wasn't really out there, um, to

help, to help this subset of, of.

656

:

Of people.

657

:

Um, and so we, we founded it and

it's, it's taken off really well.

658

:

Um, we, um, have members from all

the habitable, uh, continents.

659

:

Um, so if there's anyone working in

Antarctica and they, they, they want

660

:

to join, they have a free membership.

661

:

Um, you know, as long as they're

dealing with something, um, animal

662

:

forensic related, um, you know,

there's, there's, you know, always.

663

:

Great things that people do out there.

664

:

Um, but we really wanted to, um,

develop an organization that was

665

:

really geared towards the investigator.

666

:

, and, , in doing so we've, have

a great group of people.

667

:

Um, we have actually a

lot of veterinarians.

668

:

Uh, we have some attorneys, law

enforcement, animal control.

669

:

Um, we really have everybody who, who.

670

:

It's all the walks of life that are

involved in these investigations, and

671

:

it's just a great way to, um, sort of.

672

:

Help to, to build one's, um, education,

whether it's, um, foundational,

673

:

like they just started, or they

are a seasoned investigator who

674

:

have been doing this for years.

675

:

There's still, there's

always new things to learn.

676

:

Like, there's always a new technique that

maybe they didn't think about before.

677

:

DrG: One of the things that I have

really enjoyed is the coffee talks.

678

:

Like, I feel that there's a lot

of interaction, uh, and, you know,

679

:

it's kind of nice having something

like that for individuals that

680

:

are interested in forensics.

681

:

, what can people expect

out of these coffee talks?

682

:

Dr. Stern: Yeah, so, look, the

Animal Forensics coffee talks,

683

:

um, We we really like them.

684

:

Um, and the one thing I like about them

is they're short the talks are 15 20

685

:

minutes Um, it's a half hour block, right?

686

:

Um, we get lots of questions and stuff

like that in the end as you've seen so

687

:

like it goes it goes the whole time But

the whole point of them is to teach people

688

:

like one thing, like a lesson learned,

like this actually helped my case.

689

:

Um, it's not there to be, you know, uh,

a 60 minute lecture on a huge topic.

690

:

Like our upcoming one is, is

specifically looking at chemical

691

:

enhancement of, of blood.

692

:

So blue star and luminol and really

just compare and contrast them.

693

:

Um, and that's all that's going to be.

694

:

It's not going to.

695

:

You know, be the, this

whole drawn out thing.

696

:

It's it's, it's to the point.

697

:

Um, but they've been great.

698

:

And the reason why I wanted to do

them really short is the investigator.

699

:

Honestly, they're busy.

700

:

The veterinarian, like myself,

we're, we're super busy.

701

:

And so being able to set aside an

hour or two hours is really hard,

702

:

but for 20 minutes, 25 minutes, they

can sit in their vehicle, um, listen.

703

:

Uh, maybe just kind of do some basic

paperwork, um, and, and learn something.

704

:

And so that's, that's our whole point.

705

:

Um, and we're about to, right

now we're doing it once a month.

706

:

We're about to do it twice a month.

707

:

Um, and so, I mean, You

have so many topics.

708

:

We're going to do like mini

series of we're going to do

709

:

some toxicology mini series.

710

:

We're going to do a mini series

on animal sexual abuse, looking

711

:

at the human side, the animal side

and and some screening techniques.

712

:

So we have a lot of good stuff

planned, and it's always going

713

:

to be a little different.

714

:

And our speakers are

experts in their field.

715

:

So, um, our, our luminol and blood, uh,

sorry, our chemical enhancement for blood,

716

:

um, that's going to be given by Dr.

717

:

Sharon Plotkin, and, and she is an expert.

718

:

Um, and she teaches all this stuff

to, uh, at a local college and

719

:

she's been doing this for decades.

720

:

So, you know, we always try to find

like the best person or people,

721

:

um, to present these topics.

722

:

DrG: Yeah, I really, I really enjoy it.

723

:

And I think that as you mentioned, like

the short time frame makes it easy.

724

:

Um, most of what I do is spay neuter.

725

:

So I'm traveling to locations

and we usually get to a location

726

:

around that time, around 9 a.

727

:

m.

728

:

So while we're setting it up, I'm

just listening and trying to watch

729

:

while we get everything ready.

730

:

So then by the time we're the talk is

over and we can, and we can move on.

731

:

But yeah, I, I really.

732

:

I just really enjoyed the interaction.

733

:

A lot of associations don't have that

right like they they offer support

734

:

and they have articles and that kind

of stuff, but it doesn't feel like

735

:

that continuous flow of information.

736

:

So, so yeah, please,

please keep that up because

737

:

Dr. Stern: we have, I think, 27 talks

planned for the rest of the year so

738

:

like there's there's a ton coming out.

739

:

So we're just confirming all the speakers

before we release the massive schedule.

740

:

DrG: Excellent.

741

:

And what is the website for that?

742

:

Dr. Stern: It's isafs.org.

743

:

DrG: And then you also have

a conference coming soon.

744

:

So do you want to let

people know about that?

745

:

Dr. Stern: Yeah, so we have the

Animal Forensic Sciences, uh, Animal

746

:

Forensic Investigations Conference.

747

:

Sorry, it's sponsored by our

lab, the Veterinary Forensic

748

:

Sciences, uh, Laboratory.

749

:

And it is May 20th, 22nd of this year.

750

:

It's in sunny Gainesville, Florida.

751

:

Um, We're close to the beach.

752

:

We're not at the beach.

753

:

Um, but we have a three day event

and it's really covering all

754

:

aspects of the investigation.

755

:

Um, from the investigation itself.

756

:

I think it's about a day's worth of

content for the actual investigation,

757

:

um, to sort of specific types of animals.

758

:

So we have a small animal mini sessions.

759

:

We have a large animal, we have wildlife.

760

:

Um, and then we have a couple

of talks on like preparing

761

:

for court and search warrants.

762

:

Uh, so we really cover everything from

the beginning of the investigation,

763

:

uh, to the courts in the end.

764

:

Um, so we're really excited about that.

765

:

Uh, it's a great lineup of speakers and

they all, they all are very knowledgeable.

766

:

DrG: Yeah, I'm excited about it.

767

:

I'm excited that it's in Florida.

768

:

So, um, as of right now, I'm

planning on attending because I

769

:

think it's a really great lineup.

770

:

Well,

771

:

Dr. Stern: you have great, you have

great speakers to pull aside and have

772

:

little sessions with if you want.

773

:

DrG: Oh, oh, I'm planning on that too.

774

:

So you may want, you may want all

your participants that I'm going

775

:

to be hitting them up if I show up.

776

:

Dr. Stern: Absolutely.

777

:

We'll, we'll gladly have you.

778

:

DrG: Excellent.

779

:

So is there anything that

I've forgotten to cover or

780

:

anything that you wanted to add?

781

:

Dr. Stern: No, I think I, I really

enjoyed this chit chat in the morning.

782

:

Um, I think, you know, I just

want everybody to know that

783

:

we're here to, to help them.

784

:

Um, you know, I always say, And there's

no, there's no silly question, right?

785

:

Um, you can always ask a question

and you may, or you may get an

786

:

answer of, Oh, that's super easy.

787

:

Or no, no one's ever thought about

that, but it is a really good

788

:

question or something in the middle.

789

:

Um, but don't be afraid to ask questions.

790

:

Um, tell my students that all the time.

791

:

I tell everybody when I lecture,

it's like, just stop me.

792

:

Just ask me a question.

793

:

I'd rather, I'd rather be able to talk

to you than talking sort of at you.

794

:

Um, when I give a seminar and things

like that, but ask questions, we're,

795

:

we're absolutely here to, to help.

796

:

And, you know, we might not be

able to help you, but we can, you

797

:

know, maybe find somebody who can.

798

:

Um, but there are those cases where,

you know, unfortunately, like the,

799

:

the answer that you want, you just,

you just can't get it, but, uh,

800

:

reach out to us and we'll totally

chat and figure out what's going on.

801

:

DrG: And that makes sense, right?

802

:

Because that's what we're about.

803

:

We're about answering questions.

804

:

It's just the nature of what we do.

805

:

Dr. Stern: That's right.

806

:

The biggest question I get asked

is, is, you know, why dead, right?

807

:

Um, you know, for entomology,

it's, it's how long dead?

808

:

Uh, you know, so, so you

just ask a question and we

809

:

try to come up with a plan.

810

:

DrG: Excellent.

811

:

Well, thank you so much for taking

the time for being here, to be here.

812

:

Uh, I've really enjoyed this conversation.

813

:

I think it's a great start to our To,

to getting more of these episodes out.

814

:

So, uh, this has been great.

815

:

I hope that, that the listeners have

learned and anything that people have

816

:

not gotten, we've given them resources

and websites to, to follow up so

817

:

that they can get more information.

818

:

So I hope you have a great day with

the rest of your day and to everybody

819

:

that's listening thank you for

listening and thank you for caring.

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