We are back after a short break, and we couldn't have asked for a better guest to get us back on track. Dr. Adam Stern, professor of forensic pathology at the University of Florida, joins us to discuss poisonings and starvation in the veterinary forensic setting. This is an educational and informational episode and, while it is a difficult topic, there is nothing gory about our discussion.

This topic is good for everyone, but in particular an excellent resource for veterinarians and humane agents wanting to improve their knowledge and learn about resources available to them.

Dr. Stern also is one of the founders of the International Society for Animal Forensic Sciences, an organization we highly recommend for anyone involved in animal cruelty and neglect investigations regardless of their experience or knowledge level.

Websites of importance shared on this episode:

https://isafs.org

https://animalforensics.vetmed.ufl.edu

Mentioned in this episode:

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Use keyword keepithumane at checkout at livetrap.com

Keep it Humane Podcast Network

The Animal Welfare Junction is part of the Keep It Humane Podcast Network. Visit keepithumane.com/podcastnetwork to find us and our amazing animal welfare podcast partners.

Hi and welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction.

2

This is your host Dr.

3

G and our music is written

and produced by Mike Sullivan.

4

I want to apologize to our

listeners because I have not put

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anything out in about six weeks.

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It's been crazy six weeks, but we are

back and we have a great guest today.

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We have Dr.

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Adam Stern, Professor of Forensic

Pathology at the University of Florida

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and founder of the International

Society for Animal Forensic Science.

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So I'm really honored to have

you as a guest today, Dr.

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Stern.

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So thank you for taking the time

and welcome to the junction.

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Dr. Stern: Well, thanks for having me.

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I'm excited to be here.

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I actually listened to a couple

of your talks earlier this week.

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Uh, so I like what you're doing

and I'm glad to be a part of it.

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DrG: Thank you.

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Thank you so much.

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So let's start, you know, I know

a little bit about you, but our

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listeners may not know who you are.

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So let's start by letting our

listeners know about how you got

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started and the path that brought

you to where you are today.

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Dr. Stern: Sure.

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Well, I have a non traditional path of

sort of how I became a veterinarian.

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You know, we talked to most veterinarians,

veterinary students, and they all

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wanted to be a veterinarian since

they were born or two years old.

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That wasn't my dream, right?

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I, I went to, uh, college and I

actually, when I was there, uh,

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was interested in counterterrorism.

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That was, that was a

thing that I wanted to do.

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Um, but my college advisors didn't

really, um, think that was a, a good idea.

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Um, and so they really pushed me in

another direction and, and, and that's

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how I figured out I, I, I like biology,

veterinary medicine sounded interesting.

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Um, and, and so that's how I got there.

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I just, You know, never worked in the

veterinarian's office until till college.

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So I didn't really know

what I was getting into.

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And it wasn't until, you know,

going through vet school, you're

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like, well, I like horses, but

I don't want to work on horses.

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Zoo animals are cool, but I don't

want to work on zoo animals.

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Um, and so I made my way to, um, so

the, the, the back services, so like

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radiology, pathology, things like that.

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And then I decided pathology

was really where I wanted to go.

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So I kind of got there in a,

in a non traditional direction.

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Uh, but you know, I look back at it and

I'm like, I guess I made all the right

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choices to get to where I am today.

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So I'm not complaining.

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DrG: Yeah.

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I think that everything kind

of happens for a reason, right?

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Hey, because I think that, I mean,

you're doing great things there.

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And I joke with my staff that

you're going to be my boss someday.

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So in like four or five years, watch

out for my resume because I'm coming.

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I just really, I just, uh, you know,

and we're going to talk a little bit

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about the services that you guys do, but

I have used your services and I think

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it's, it's a great benefit, not just

to veterinarians in forensics, but just

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humane officers, animal control officers.

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law enforcement.

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So, um, yeah.

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So thank you for sharing

what you have done.

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And now we'll start with our topic.

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So we're going to be talking about

poisonings and starvation that

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can be somewhat difficult topics.

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So for our listeners, if this is

hard for you to listen, hit the pause

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button, focus on something else for

a bit, and then you can come back.

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Um, let's start with

talking about poisoning.

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So in my experience, most pet owners,

when I was in general practice, most

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people that came in claiming that the

neighbor killed the dog or the cat

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and that it was poison, very few of

those actually, I can't even think

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of any of them that were true that

the that the neighbor did poison it.

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Um, what is your

experience with with that?

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Dr. Stern: So, yeah, Poisoning

cases in general, they, they kind of

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present non specifically and sometimes

they're not poisoning at all, right?

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Like you said, a lot of them are, are not.

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There's a natural process, but it kind

of unexpected demise of the animal.

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Um, but you still have to look

into it and, and, you know,

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consider it as a, a differential.

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Uh, in my experience, uh, we actually

are, are doing a lot of retrospective

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work and we have found that the

neighbor sometimes does do it.

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Uh, you know, it really does happen.

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Uh, but again, that's not,

that's not the commonality.

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A lot of times it's,

it's, it's something else.

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Um, but they're, they're really

difficult cases to handle.

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You really have to invest a lot of

time and honestly, a lot of money,

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um, to really figure out, you know,

what the poison is, if it actually

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was a poison in the first place.

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DrG: Yeah, most of the poisonings that

I saw were what we thought primarily

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accidental, right, like rat poison or

ethylene glycol, that kind of stuff, but

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one of the things that I think people

have a misconception, and it's probably

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because of the CSI effect, is that they

think that something is poison, and then

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just Send blood to the lab and see what,

you know, they expect to see the graph

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and say, yeah, this is what happened.

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So, what is the, what is the truth as far

as what it actually takes to find out what

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poisons may be in a, in a dog or a cat?

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Dr. Stern: Yeah, so you're,

you're absolutely right.

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That CSI effect, you know, I always, I

always talk about, you know, you have this

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45 minutes to, you know, watch that, that

detective show, that crime scene show.

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And in about 30 seconds, they put

the sample in the machine, it turned

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around and it prints out and voila,

you got your, you got your answer.

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Uh, so far from the truth.

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It's really just not even funny.

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Um, when we look for, for toxins.

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Uh, there's a plethora of different, um,

analytical techniques that one can use.

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We have GCMS, LCMS, we have, uh,

immunoassays for screening these

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cases, uh, but there is no one test

that fits all poisons and toxins.

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Uh, heavy metals are going to be

identified differently than say,

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uh, ethylene glycol, which will

be different than organophosphate.

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So, uh, we really have to consider.

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Uh, so much more than just the, here's

the blood sample or a blood might not

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be, uh, the best, um, substance to

even test, uh, you know, if it's a

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more of a chronic intoxication, um,

in the live animal, you're probably

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gonna be looking at urine, right?

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A little blood test.

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The toxins probably not

circulating in the blood anymore.

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It's probably been

deposited in all the organs.

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And so we have to really consider

when the intoxication happened.

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Um, you know, same thing.

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If it's per acute, animal literally

eat something and drops dead.

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Um, we're not gonna be looking at urine.

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We really want to look at the

vomit or the stomach content.

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So again, you have to think

about the clinical picture.

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Uh, in my case, the autopsy findings

and then, you know, what our

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list is of differentials for the

toxin and then the test itself.

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So lots, lots more than just,

you know, 30 seconds on TV.

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DrG: Yeah, no, absolutely.

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And what, what is the importance as far

as like the history that people give you?

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Dr. Stern: So the history,

it's, it's important because

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say like the pet owner, right?

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They, they know their animals really well.

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Um, and I had a case recently

where, uh, the owner basically said

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I was able to pet the cat and he

said, that is completely abnormal.

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That cat would never let me touch it.

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And now I can pet it.

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And then unfortunately it,

it died shortly thereafter.

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Um, but even subtle signs like that

can be mean a lot, doesn't say what

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it was, but it kinds of starts to give

us clues like this animal is not doing

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well or, you know, abnormalities.

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But the history is important, but you

also have to look at the clinical picture.

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The history can be kind of, you

know, kind of saying, Oh, it's a

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screaming, uh, a malicious poisoning

case or something like that.

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But then when you start to actually

look at the animal, you're like, well,

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no, that's really not what's going on.

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So use that history for sort of initial

guidance, but then you have to let our

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science, veterinary medicine, uh, really

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put us in that direction of, of

which fork in the road, which

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differentials we need to consider.

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DrG: Yeah, I had, uh, I had a case

where a lady brought in a cat and

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she said that the neighbor poisoned

the cat because the cat was fine

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and then the cat was stumbling

and acting drunk and then it died.

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And when she brought it in on necropsy,

it actually had a urethral obstruction.

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So, it was blocked and the changes that it

underwent from the toxins are very similar

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to what some people would expect that an

animal that was poisoned would look like.

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So, can you share some of the cases

that you have worked on with toxins

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and how you have worked through them?

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Dr. Stern: Yeah, sure.

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I mean, the, the, the case that

you're presenting right there,

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the urethral obstruction, I mean,

that, that history, it's obviously

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ethylene glycol, antifreeze ingestion.

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Um, and we see, we see a lot of that.

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Um, so we, we actually do a lot of

research and some of the research we

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do is on, on how to, um, more readily

document those cases and, um, actually

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doing, uh, postmortem chemistry

to, um, estimate antemortem blood

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values for like BUN and creatinine.

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Um, and so we're doing all of that, but

that's, that's, I would say, um, for

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us, for, um, probably the most common

one that we see, um, readily available

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for, for people to, um, have at their

house, whether it's intentional or

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accidental, that's out of the realm of

the veterinary forensic pathologist.

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We just say, this is what it is.

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And then the investigator, you know, Goes

and does their part of the investigation.

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So they're going to be the ones who

are going to be looking more into that.

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Um, but that's quite common.

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That's actually really easy

for us to, to diagnose.

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Um, and we, we do that a lot.

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Um, then you get into some of the

things like the anticoagulants

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again, something that you would see.

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Then you get into more difficult

ones, such as the illicit drugs.

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Um, you know, whether an animal

is fed, um, a laced meatball, you

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know, some sort of food material.

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Um, once we start seeing things, we

asked the clinician, the owner, uh,

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what What do you feed the animal?

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We always ask those sorts of questions on

our, on our submission forms because we

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look at the stomach contents and you're

like, well, you say this is what you

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fed, but you have this in your stomach.

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Um, so that doesn't match.

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And so that might be a little

clue, uh, to go down some of these

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more sort of acute per acute.

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Intoxication.

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And so, uh, illicit drugs would be one.

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Um, uh, pesticides,

insecticides would be another.

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Typically, they cause rapid death.

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Um, the animal doesn't linger on for days.

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Typically, they eat it.

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Um, and they get pretty sick really fast

and you just find them deceased in their

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backyard or wherever they would have been.

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Um, so, you know, I think we see

a lot of different things but

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uh, again, tailoring what we see.

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With our sciences, uh, really help us.

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DrG: I know that also in clinical practice

when animals, especially dogs, would have

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like vomiting or diarrhea and the owner

was not sure, people would always blame

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it on the control, like weed control and,

uh, fertilizer and that kind of stuff.

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So is there any truth as far as the

toxicity level of just stuff that's

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spread out in the yard to treat the yard?

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Dr. Stern: Yeah, so we've, we've, we've

worked on a number of those, those

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kinds of cases where there's some lawn

stuff put down and then the dog is sick

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shortly thereafter, or, you know, within

a couple of days, um, and, and really

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to my experience is a lot of those

animals have some other disease that was.

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Subclinical asymptomatic and it started

to rear its its ugly head at that point.

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Um, and then there's others where

unfortunately um, you know, we we don't

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find any Gross findings at autopsy.

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We, we do a histology looking at the

tissues and we don't see anything.

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And then we offer up doing

some toxicology analysis.

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And, um, again, because it comes

down to finances, um, people

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just don't go that next step.

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And so probably some of those cases do

have, um, some validity, but I think a

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lot of times it comes down to finances.

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And it just doesn't get

fully, uh, worked up.

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DrG: Another thing that people

get concerned about is what

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you brought up as far as asking

people what they feed their dog.

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It's about potential toxins in the food.

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Um, how often, how often do you see that?

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Dr. Stern: Uh, well, in our

lab, we actually, we don't

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get a lot of those cases.

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Um, they, they seem to, there's different

mechanisms, um, reporting these to the,

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the, the federal government where they go

through, uh, some of those other channels.

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Um, we've seen a few.

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A lot of times it's going to be more of

the Bacterial contamination might be in

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there, maybe a salmonella or, uh, some

other bacteria, but we honestly just

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don't, we just don't see a lot of them.

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DrG: If somebody is concerned,

especially like a veterinarian, if

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somebody thinks that an animal has

been, uh, poisoned, what are going

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to be the best samples to take

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and submit and how they're

going to go about doing that?

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Dr. Stern: Yeah.

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So you, you have a difference between

the live animal and deceased animal,

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uh, because the samples we can get are,

are, are obviously vastly different.

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Um, but you have to think about, is

it an acute intoxication or is it

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more of a chronic, did it happen?

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You know, days ago.

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Uh, so with the acute intoxications,

and this is not an exhaustive list,

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you have to think about things, uh,

where the toxins going to be, so vomit.

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Okay, that's going to be a good place.

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Um, gastric contents, uh, goes

along with the vomit, uh, blood,

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because if you inject, ingest it,

it's going to go into circulation.

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And so we want to get

things that are earlier on.

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Um, if it's cutaneous contact, like

something is put on the animal,

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then, then obviously for skin from

that area would be, would be useful.

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Um, In the more chronic cases, again,

it's going to be more of what's in the

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organs and sort of downstream to that.

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So, uh, urine for a live animal,

even feces, sometimes, uh, it's

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going to be excreted in the

feces as well as the urine.

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So that's potentially a way to get it.

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Uh, with the autopsy, it's sort of

the same, the same thought process.

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If it's acute, we go for the, the

bloods, the, the stomach contents,

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um, and even liver, um, it's cause

it's going to be likely metabolized in

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the liver or in the kidneys, and then

for the more chronic, we do organs

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as well as the urine.

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So it kind of, again,

just kind of depends.

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Um, but then you also want to collect

other samples because maybe that drug, um,

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or toxin is maybe, um, likes a lot of fat.

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And so we always collect

some sort of fatty tissues.

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Um, and really just a wide array of

tissues just in case, um, we were

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dealing with some sort of odd situation.

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DrG: I just finished the Forensic

Science Masters at the University of

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Florida, and one of the things that

they tell us also about collection is

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the vitreous fluid inside of the eye.

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Is that something that is

done in animals as well?

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Dr. Stern: So yeah, so we do do that.

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It's good for like in livestock,

for example, testing for nitrates

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and nitrites for cattle, sort of

the acute intoxication for them.

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So yes, we do it.

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Uh, we can detect a number

of different drugs in it.

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Um, even, uh, looking at the human side,

they use vitreous, uh, for a bunch of

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different drugs, so that is definitely

something that you can collect and

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in our lab, we use it for vitreous

chemistry, um, which I kind of alluded

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to earlier with, uh, the antifreeze

cases, um, because you can look at

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things such as vitreous urea nitrogen,

you could look at the electrolytes

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a little bit, um, some just go up.

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With post mortem change, so like

potassium, so it's not really going

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to help you to estimate what it

was in a live animal, um, and even

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glucose levels, uh, so we can identify

theoretically, uh, a diabetic animal

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with a massively elevated glucose levels.

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So, um, you can use it for toxins,

but you can also use it just for sort

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of general, um, health of the animal.

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DrG: Is there any, um, time limit or time

frame that the samples have to be done

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before you cannot get any information.

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Or is the information stay there

for a really long period of time?

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Dr. Stern: So that's a,

it's a great question.

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Um, and it depends.

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Uh, some, some compounds will

break down pretty quickly.

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Their half lives are pretty short

where others, they last forever.

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Um, and I don't mean literally forever.

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That breakdown takes

them a very long time.

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Uh, there was a study looking

at, uh, panel Barbara tall.

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And they were looking at

composting of, of pigs.

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And there was also, I believe, a study

in horses, and they found that that

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stuff lasted for years, um, lasted in the

decomposed remains lasted in the soil.

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So some of these toxins, uh, potentially

can be there for, for really long times.

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And we see the issues when, um,

maybe a dog digs up a buried horse

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carcass and gets intoxicated.

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So that we could detect really easily

in, in pretty decomposed remains

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where some other toxins, um, you

have to get to them much faster.

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Like ethylene glycol.

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Um, you need to get that really early

in the phase because it's going to be

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metabolized and excreted and you're

just not going to find it in the body.

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DrG: Is there a cool case that you

have worked recently of toxicity

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that you can share with us?

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Dr. Stern: um honestly, I I

really like the antifreeze cases.

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Um Not because they're they're

relatively straightforward.

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I just think they are um one of these

cases where you know, you get the

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accidents, but then There are truly In

here in Florida, a lot of malicious cases.

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Um, and so being able to identify and

document those cases, um, it's really

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rewarding because there's, there's

a high chance that the end result

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will result in a prosecution if,

if it's determined to be malicious.

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Um, and so it's really straightforward.

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Easy to, um, present that to a court,

to a jury, um, for them to understand.

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I like the, the challenges though,

of some of these unusual cases like

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organophosphates, um, and the carbamates,

uh, because those, those cases, um, you

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do the autopsy and you just, you just

don't see, you just don't see anything.

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There's really no pathology.

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And so you have to start that

sort of treasure hunt of find

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that toxin and find that poison.

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Um, they're expensive, uh, to, to

do that because you, you typically,

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you're like, well, what do I do?

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And so you could do a shotgun approach

and just kind of just do, um, some

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random testing, or you can just

start to go a bit more specific.

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Um, and so.

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It'll depend on the case, obviously.

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But if you have three, four or five

animals who, um, all of a sudden

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they're happy and healthy and then

they're dead, um, then, you know,

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the, the stakes are kind of a bit

higher, uh, because it's, you know,

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definitely, um, screaming poison,

uh, in, in a lot of those cases, so.

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You know, you can do that.

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And then, uh, barbiturate toxicity is

also something that really interests me.

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And we are doing, uh, some research,

um, not only for deceased animals, but

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also, um, living animals, and we're,

we're trying to develop, um, or work

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up a way, um, to diagnose it in the

live animals so that they can get,

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uh, a more timely diagnosis and, uh.

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Tailored treatment to that.

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Um, so a lot of it's just

gonna be symptomatic care.

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Uh, but kind of help with the

getting that diagnosis a bit quicker.

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DrG: So let's jump into starvation cases.

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Um, I've had the opportunity to work

with a couple of starvation cases that

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actually resulted in the death of the

animal, but most of the starvation

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cases are going to be like neglect,

cruelty, hoarding cases where the

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animals are still alive and you kind of

manage those really, really different.

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So let's start with the live animals.

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What, what determines if an animal has

been starved as far as the, the findings,

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the physical examination findings, the

body condition, that kind of stuff.

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Dr. Stern: Yeah.

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So, so obviously I'm, I'm the

pathologist, so I don't treat

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things that have a heartbeat, right.

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Uh, uh, but.

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You know, I mean, they're, they're

going to look the same, the, the,

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they're going to be obviously emaciated.

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And it's really important for you to do

your, your body condition scores and your

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muscle scoring, uh, because these animals

are going to be losing fat, uh, initially,

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um, and really only in the end does that,

does that protein catabolism really.

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Um, go into high gear.

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Um, but besides that, I think the,

the biggest thing is it's actually

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on, it's on the investigator really

at the very beginning, um, to be sure

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that, you know, at the scene, um, you,

you capture obviously that scene with

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photography and all that, but don't

just go and give the dog a treat.

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Um, you know, don't just give them some

water, uh, because you have to be sure

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you, you get that on video, you know, the

first time to get food, the first time

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to get water, um, so that you can show,

look, Hey, I just grabbed this stuff

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out of my truck and the dog just ate it.

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Um, because a lot of times you see,

um, in these cases, the, uh, defense

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is always, well, I tried feeding them.

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Um, I gave them.

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All this great high quality food, or, you

know, this crap food or whatever it might

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be, and the dog just wouldn't eat it.

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But now we have on video, look, we

just randomly gave a small amount

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of food and they ate it ravenously.

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So I think that's really important

and actually really helpful

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information for the veterinarian.

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Because in the, the diagnosis

of starvation is really

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a diagnosis of exclusion.

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Yeah, you really go down the

fact that, look, there's, there's

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nothing else wrong with them.

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These animals are, do not exhibit

cachexia, which is, you know,

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that, that same sort of emaciated

condition, but for very different

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reasons, they are, they're sick.

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They have a systemic disease or even one

organ is affected, but the animal is is

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really sick, like chronic renal disease.

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So I think, um, really, with those cases,

it's the job of the veterinarian to just

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prove that there's no other disease.

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So, you know, doing.

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Uh, blood work, fecal exams, and yes,

you're probably going to find some

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parasites in them, uh, because of

the conditions, but it's not going to

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typically rise to that level unless

you have a massive parasite infection.

389

Um, so doing your basic workup, um, and,

you know, getting rid of differentials

390

will really back you into the

starvation by exogenous circumstances.

391

DrG: Yeah, that's a great point.

392

There was, uh, several years ago,

there was a humane officer, it was

393

well over 80 dogs that they rescued

from, uh, from a starvation case.

394

And, well, a neglect case.

395

And I want to say it was a dog

fighting case, but I don't remember.

396

But the owner said that the dogs

could not gain weight because

397

they had a genetic problem.

398

So, you know, that was

kind of like the defense.

399

So the officer, the investigative

officer called me and he's like, how

400

am I going to prove that these dogs

don't have this genetic condition?

401

And I told him, just feed them, just

402

Dr. Stern: feed them

403

DrG: and then see if they gain weight.

404

And if they gain weight,

then it's not genetic.

405

And he, and it's such a simple answer

that you just don't think about.

406

And they fed them and the dogs fattened

up and then that was the end of that.

407

So it was a pretty simple

solution to, uh, what, what

408

seemed to be a difficult question.

409

Dr. Stern: Yeah, and that, and that

brings up another good point is you're

410

going to want to periodically weigh

them, periodically take photographs of

411

them, because if you have this dog that

comes in, say on the Purina scale, it's

412

a one out of nine, um, which is important

to always say what scale you're using.

413

So, um, people can actually go

back and look and don't just say

414

it's a, a three out of five and

you know, what scale are you using?

415

I have no idea.

416

Um, cause all scales are

really not created equal.

417

Um, but weigh them, take those

photographs of them to show that

418

change, you know, over the weeks of

recovery because they're not going

419

to eat and get better in two days.

420

It's going to be this long, long

process, but you're going to see

421

that that progressive change.

422

, DrG: I just recently shared a case

that that I was working on and

423

a lot of people got gut reaction

was, Oh my God, feed those dogs.

424

And people don't understand that

you can't just throw food at them,

425

that there is the whole refeeding

syndrome and you can actually cause

426

more problems than not, if you start

feeding these, these starved animals,

427

Dr. Stern: Yep, exactly true.

428

Yeah.

429

You can't just say, here's your, your,

I'm just going to make up a number of

430

your 2000 calorie diet, um, because you,

you're, you haven't had food for so long,

431

you'll probably end up killing them.

432

So.

433

You got to do it slowly.

434

DrG: Let's go more on your side on the

animals that do die from, from starvation.

435

So what are going to be the most

important things that you're

436

looking for during that necropsy?

437

Dr. Stern: So it's, it's kind of similar.

438

So again, we're going to look at, you

know, their fat stores or lack of fat.

439

Um, we'll look at their,

their muscle, see how.

440

Poorly or well muscled,

they are that sort of thing.

441

Um, but then we're going

to go organ by organ.

442

Um, every system will get examined for

Um evidence of disease, uh, you know

443

these organs with starvation they'll

atrophy So yes, they'll be smaller,

444

but we want to show how there's

no, you know, systemic inflammatory

445

disease or cancer, renal failure.

446

Something like that to explain why this

one animal looks the way it does Um,

447

you know, so we're gonna, we're gonna

be doing all that, looking at really

448

the entire body, um, but with the

advantage of being able to look at the

449

organs themselves and not just looking

at the blood work for organ function.

450

DrG: When somebody is asking about

cases of starvation, they want

451

to know about the cause of death.

452

And then they also want to

know about the time of death.

453

So what are the ways that we can determine

time of death on these starvation cases?

454

Dr. Stern: So, time of death is

just a whole other ball game.

455

Um, there's different ways to, to try to

estimate it and in veterinary medicine,

456

um, and even in human medicine, it's,

it's not an exact science, um, you know,

457

there's always a new method that someone

comes out with, um, but a lot of it is

458

going to be very specific to a certain

location or even research, um, you know,

459

very specific parameters, um, and, and,

and, um, For me, it's entomology would

460

be it's the well validated, um, and

so we can use the insects, you know,

461

if we have some, some maggots, some

pupa, um, on the body, but, or, or even

462

around the body, because we have to

look there as well, that's going to help

463

us a lot, giving us sort of a minimum

time of colonization for those insects,

464

and so that would Move over to, um,

estimate in that post mortem interval.

465

So that's really, um, just one way, but

there's a lot of research out there.

466

There was, um, I'm working with

a student right now and she

467

tried to use, uh, some immune

immunohistochemistry, some flow cytometry.

468

Um, but there's all sorts of things

we talked about vitreous humor.

469

Uh, so looking at potassium levels in

the eye, um, you know, so there's lots

470

of different ways, but a lot of them are,

471

especially in the animal realm,

where they're really in its infancy,

472

um, I'm trying to work these up.

473

Uh, so that's why for me, I fall

back to entomology, uh, especially

474

when I have any insect activity

going to be probably very helpful.

475

DrG: And I have to say, I hate insects and

that I'm scared of insects, but I learned

476

to love insects from my entomology class

during my veterinary forensics training.

477

Um, and, and yeah, it's like people

think, again, CSI effect, that

478

somebody just looks and some larva

out in the field and says, this

479

has been dead for about 12 days.

480

And that's not how that works.

481

I learned that the hard way because during

my class, I remember at the very end,

482

we had to do a time of death estimation.

483

And my result was something

like 54 to 800 days.

484

And I was like, clearly

I'm doing something wrong.

485

And I just redid it so many times.

486

And yeah, it was like 54 to 800 days.

487

But it's not as specific as

people, as people may think.

488

Dr. Stern: Oh, yeah.

489

Um, and I just and just to go back to the

starvation thing for a second, because

490

I wanted to say, you know, for for me,

the the animal is no longer with us.

491

So it's deceased.

492

And so I don't have that luxury of

feeding them like we talked about in

493

the live animals, see what they do.

494

So one of the things we actually

looked for is foreign material.

495

Um, in their stomachs and in their

intestines and in whatever fecal

496

matter they have, because these

animals are hungry, um, they're

497

going to eat anything they can.

498

So non nutritious substances, styrofoam,

plastic, um, anything like that is

499

going to be very valuable, uh, for us

to say, look, they, they had some sort

500

of appetite, they clearly can swallow.

501

And so it gives us a little more

oomph to being able to, to sort of

502

back our way into that starvation.

503

So in

504

DrG: the two cases that, that I examined,

um, and one of them, the owner said

505

that the dog had parvo and it died.

506

Um, and then the, the other

one there was proof that they

507

had actually been fighting.

508

It was a domestic violence situation

and they literally starved the dog.

509

Um.

510

But one of the things that I submitted

was femur for bone marrow analysis.

511

So, can you explain what, what

is that, uh, and what's the

512

information that we can get from it?

513

Dr. Stern: Yeah, so, so the femur

analysis, and you're looking specifically

514

at percentage of bone marrow fat.

515

And so, for me, my viewpoint on that

is that's really an adjunct, uh, to

516

Your autopsy, um, your autopsy is

going to be looking at all the systems

517

and it's looking at fat stores.

518

And one of the things that we

routinely look at, whether or not

519

you're a starvation case or not, is

what does your bone marrow look like?

520

Um, so in an adult animal,

bone marrow is mostly fat.

521

Okay.

522

Um, I look at bone marrow.

523

So like a can of dog food or

a can of cat food, it is some

524

basic macronutrients in there.

525

You have water, which is moisture.

526

You have carbohydrates, fats, and

protein basically is what you got.

527

And then there's ash, which

is a very small percentage.

528

Now in bone marrow.

529

Um, Adult, mostly fat.

530

There's no carbohydrates.

531

There's very little protein.

532

Um, there's some ash and

very little moisture.

533

And so, um, people use that, um, to sort

of quantify the percentage of fat, which.

534

For me, I have already

looked at bone marrow.

535

I've already said there's

gelatinous change to the marrow.

536

I've looked at it under a

microscope to show there's no fat.

537

And, and really the fat

analysis, all it's doing for me,

538

it's just giving me a number.

539

It's, it's more objective.

540

Um, and so we're going to give a number

to my subjective, uh, interpretation.

541

And so that's really what,

what you can use it for.

542

You can't use it to diagnose starvation.

543

Um, because it's, it's

not specific to a cause.

544

It just says you have very little fat.

545

Um, and then you also do have to

be careful, though, that there

546

will be cases where you have

very little fat in your marrow.

547

Um, but you didn't starve to death.

548

So you take a dog who has leukemia, right?

549

The neoplastic cells are actually going

to displace and um, You know, efface the

550

fat, so that animal is actually going

to have very low fat in its marrow.

551

And so if you looked at that

just by itself, you'd end

552

up with the wrong diagnosis.

553

Um, so any tests that you do, regardless

if it's a fat test or a blood test or

554

a toxin test, you have to look at it

in totality and not just as a silo by

555

itself, because it's only going to give

you a small piece of information that

556

you have to look at it all together.

557

Um, and so, uh, I get asked a lot, you

know, if I just send you a bone, well,

558

will you tell me anything about it?

559

I'm like, I could, we could tell you

that, but we have to look at it in

560

the context of, of everything else.

561

DrG: So in the, in the cases

that, that we were working, it

562

was kind of like that, right?

563

The animals were starting to decompose.

564

So is, are they missing,

they had no subcutaneous fat.

565

So we were thinking that

that's what was going on.

566

The stomach, uh, one of the things

that I found in the stomach and was

567

that there was like a sludge in there.

568

And at first I thought that it was food,

but then discussing with other people,

569

I was informed that they will create

somewhat of a sludge in the stomach,

570

um, just from the acids and that kind

of stuff that can be confused with food.

571

So can you tell us a

little bit about that?

572

Dr. Stern: Yeah, so the, these animals

sometimes have gastric ulcers, so

573

they'll be bleeding in there, and so

that mixed with the gastric contents,

574

the acids and fluids, um, can get

that more sludgy appearance to it.

575

Um, so that's also one thing we look

for is do we have gastric ulcers, um,

576

because they might have some GI bleeding.

577

DrG: So overall, I mean, clearly it's

going to be easier if there's a starvation

578

case and somebody wants to consult with

you for you to do the complete necropsy

579

rather than look at different samples.

580

Is there something, though, if that is

not possible, what kind of things can

581

you guide veterinarians in trying to

determine if there was a starvation case?

582

Dr. Stern: Yeah, so I think if,

you know, consulting on a case,

583

um, basically if someone else is

doing the autopsy, it's always, you

584

know, look at everything, right?

585

Look at, at everything from the, you

know, the tip of the nose, the tail

586

to the feet and everything in between.

587

Um, and then work with your pathologist

because they're the ones who can look

588

at the tissues under the microscope.

589

So we can say, yes, we

don't have any disease here.

590

You have all of your your

data that you've collected.

591

And it's a really great way to a

have more than one person look at a

592

case because it's always better to

have consults and other specialists

593

to help back up your claims, um,

and sort of get us to that point.

594

So, um, you know, if you think it's a

starvation case and all you submit to

595

someone to look at under the microscope

is lung, that's not very helpful.

596

Um, so really, you know, give us a

full set of tissues so we can actually

597

give you some powerful data that again,

combining with yours, um, really.

598

Again, helps, helps the science

show what was or was not going on.

599

DrG: How does the University of Florida

help with these cases and what is

600

the process that humane officers or

veterinarians, uh, take to send you

601

samples or consult with you guys?

602

Dr. Stern: Yeah, so we, we

work with with everyone, right?

603

We'll work with the, uh, the investigator.

604

So whether it's law enforcement,

animal control, animal services,

605

depending on whose jurisdiction it is

and, and who does what in that area,

606

uh, veterinarians, uh, attorneys.

607

Uh, and even the pet owner will,

will work directly with them, uh,

608

through their veterinarian to sort

of help them through the process.

609

But, uh, we, we pretty

much do everything here.

610

We do obviously the forensic autopsies.

611

Um, we have two, uh, fellows of

veterinary forensic pathology here.

612

Um, and so there's going to be

typically, uh, one or two sets of eyes on

613

on every case that comes to our lab.

614

Um, but we do, uh, whether it's in

house or in consultation with other

615

institutions or laboratories, um,

we do, uh, some forensic toxicology.

616

Uh, entomology, DNA analysis, uh, we

even, um, work with people who do, uh,

617

photogrammetry and so that's for, uh,

often for wildlife, you know, based

618

on photographs, how is that image, uh,

whatever in that image, if it's a deer,

619

for example, is that the same one that's

You know, we have a dead on the road or

620

somebody poached that sort of thing so

we can kind of match the photographs.

621

We do, , crime scene response.

622

So we'll go out there and help

with the investigators, um,

623

whether it's documenting the scene

or helping with an excavation.

624

Um, and even if we have live

animals, although I don't practice

625

live animal medicine, um, we help

with logistics and we help, um,

626

identify people who can help them.

627

Uh, so if we can't do it, we will

100 percent say, you know, we're

628

not the ones for that, but you

can go, um, to this person and

629

they'll, they'll totally help you.

630

DrG: Cool.

631

And how, what's the website

or how can people get ahold of

632

you guys to, to do a request?

633

Dr. Stern: Yeah.

634

So actually we have a

new website rolling out.

635

Um, we literally hit the go button the

other day, so the site, uh, should go

636

live very soon, but it's, it's actually,

I'll give you the new address it's animal

637

forensics.vetmed.ufl.edu and that will

take everyone to everything that we do um,

638

whether it's the services the the research

or even the teaching and outreach that we

639

do so it's going to be a one stop shop Um,

we have several other websites But we're

640

going to close them all down and and kind

of direct them all to this this one site

641

Which we're really excited about this

642

DrG: Excellent.

643

And we'll make sure to share that

because it's a great resource.

644

So finally, I want to close by

talking about the International

645

Society of Animal Forensic Sciences.

646

So what led you to

found this organization?

647

Dr. Stern: So, um, I founded

this organization with, with two

648

other, um, individuals, uh, Dr.

649

Jason Bird and Adam Leith.

650

And it is Geared towards the investigator,

um, because they, they, you know, they

651

have a hard job, uh, going out there

and investigating all these cases.

652

And sometimes the investigator, um,

really doesn't have that background

653

in animal cruelty investigations

and forensic investigations.

654

And so we thought this was a, a, a

great way and, and something that

655

wasn't really out there, um, to

help, to help this subset of, of.

656

Of people.

657

Um, and so we, we founded it and

it's, it's taken off really well.

658

Um, we, um, have members from all

the habitable, uh, continents.

659

Um, so if there's anyone working in

Antarctica and they, they, they want

660

to join, they have a free membership.

661

Um, you know, as long as they're

dealing with something, um, animal

662

forensic related, um, you know,

there's, there's, you know, always.

663

Great things that people do out there.

664

Um, but we really wanted to, um,

develop an organization that was

665

really geared towards the investigator.

666

, and, , in doing so we've, have

a great group of people.

667

Um, we have actually a

lot of veterinarians.

668

Uh, we have some attorneys, law

enforcement, animal control.

669

Um, we really have everybody who, who.

670

It's all the walks of life that are

involved in these investigations, and

671

it's just a great way to, um, sort of.

672

Help to, to build one's, um, education,

whether it's, um, foundational,

673

like they just started, or they

are a seasoned investigator who

674

have been doing this for years.

675

There's still, there's

always new things to learn.

676

Like, there's always a new technique that

maybe they didn't think about before.

677

DrG: One of the things that I have

really enjoyed is the coffee talks.

678

Like, I feel that there's a lot

of interaction, uh, and, you know,

679

it's kind of nice having something

like that for individuals that

680

are interested in forensics.

681

, what can people expect

out of these coffee talks?

682

Dr. Stern: Yeah, so, look, the

Animal Forensics coffee talks,

683

um, We we really like them.

684

Um, and the one thing I like about them

is they're short the talks are 15 20

685

minutes Um, it's a half hour block, right?

686

Um, we get lots of questions and stuff

like that in the end as you've seen so

687

like it goes it goes the whole time But

the whole point of them is to teach people

688

like one thing, like a lesson learned,

like this actually helped my case.

689

Um, it's not there to be, you know, uh,

a 60 minute lecture on a huge topic.

690

Like our upcoming one is, is

specifically looking at chemical

691

enhancement of, of blood.

692

So blue star and luminol and really

just compare and contrast them.

693

Um, and that's all that's going to be.

694

It's not going to.

695

You know, be the, this

whole drawn out thing.

696

It's it's, it's to the point.

697

Um, but they've been great.

698

And the reason why I wanted to do

them really short is the investigator.

699

Honestly, they're busy.

700

The veterinarian, like myself,

we're, we're super busy.

701

And so being able to set aside an

hour or two hours is really hard,

702

but for 20 minutes, 25 minutes, they

can sit in their vehicle, um, listen.

703

Uh, maybe just kind of do some basic

paperwork, um, and, and learn something.

704

And so that's, that's our whole point.

705

Um, and we're about to, right

now we're doing it once a month.

706

We're about to do it twice a month.

707

Um, and so, I mean, You

have so many topics.

708

We're going to do like mini

series of we're going to do

709

some toxicology mini series.

710

We're going to do a mini series

on animal sexual abuse, looking

711

at the human side, the animal side

and and some screening techniques.

712

So we have a lot of good stuff

planned, and it's always going

713

to be a little different.

714

And our speakers are

experts in their field.

715

So, um, our, our luminol and blood, uh,

sorry, our chemical enhancement for blood,

716

um, that's going to be given by Dr.

717

Sharon Plotkin, and, and she is an expert.

718

Um, and she teaches all this stuff

to, uh, at a local college and

719

she's been doing this for decades.

720

So, you know, we always try to find

like the best person or people,

721

um, to present these topics.

722

DrG: Yeah, I really, I really enjoy it.

723

And I think that as you mentioned, like

the short time frame makes it easy.

724

Um, most of what I do is spay neuter.

725

So I'm traveling to locations

and we usually get to a location

726

around that time, around 9 a.

727

m.

728

So while we're setting it up, I'm

just listening and trying to watch

729

while we get everything ready.

730

So then by the time we're the talk is

over and we can, and we can move on.

731

But yeah, I, I really.

732

I just really enjoyed the interaction.

733

A lot of associations don't have that

right like they they offer support

734

and they have articles and that kind

of stuff, but it doesn't feel like

735

that continuous flow of information.

736

So, so yeah, please,

please keep that up because

737

Dr. Stern: we have, I think, 27 talks

planned for the rest of the year so

738

like there's there's a ton coming out.

739

So we're just confirming all the speakers

before we release the massive schedule.

740

DrG: Excellent.

741

And what is the website for that?

742

Dr. Stern: It's isafs.org.

743

DrG: And then you also have

a conference coming soon.

744

So do you want to let

people know about that?

745

Dr. Stern: Yeah, so we have the

Animal Forensic Sciences, uh, Animal

746

Forensic Investigations Conference.

747

Sorry, it's sponsored by our

lab, the Veterinary Forensic

748

Sciences, uh, Laboratory.

749

And it is May 20th, 22nd of this year.

750

It's in sunny Gainesville, Florida.

751

Um, We're close to the beach.

752

We're not at the beach.

753

Um, but we have a three day event

and it's really covering all

754

aspects of the investigation.

755

Um, from the investigation itself.

756

I think it's about a day's worth of

content for the actual investigation,

757

um, to sort of specific types of animals.

758

So we have a small animal mini sessions.

759

We have a large animal, we have wildlife.

760

Um, and then we have a couple

of talks on like preparing

761

for court and search warrants.

762

Uh, so we really cover everything from

the beginning of the investigation,

763

uh, to the courts in the end.

764

Um, so we're really excited about that.

765

Uh, it's a great lineup of speakers and

they all, they all are very knowledgeable.

766

DrG: Yeah, I'm excited about it.

767

I'm excited that it's in Florida.

768

So, um, as of right now, I'm

planning on attending because I

769

think it's a really great lineup.

770

Well,

771

Dr. Stern: you have great, you have

great speakers to pull aside and have

772

little sessions with if you want.

773

DrG: Oh, oh, I'm planning on that too.

774

So you may want, you may want all

your participants that I'm going

775

to be hitting them up if I show up.

776

Dr. Stern: Absolutely.

777

We'll, we'll gladly have you.

778

DrG: Excellent.

779

So is there anything that

I've forgotten to cover or

780

anything that you wanted to add?

781

Dr. Stern: No, I think I, I really

enjoyed this chit chat in the morning.

782

Um, I think, you know, I just

want everybody to know that

783

we're here to, to help them.

784

Um, you know, I always say, And there's

no, there's no silly question, right?

785

Um, you can always ask a question

and you may, or you may get an

786

answer of, Oh, that's super easy.

787

Or no, no one's ever thought about

that, but it is a really good

788

question or something in the middle.

789

Um, but don't be afraid to ask questions.

790

Um, tell my students that all the time.

791

I tell everybody when I lecture,

it's like, just stop me.

792

Just ask me a question.

793

I'd rather, I'd rather be able to talk

to you than talking sort of at you.

794

Um, when I give a seminar and things

like that, but ask questions, we're,

795

we're absolutely here to, to help.

796

And, you know, we might not be

able to help you, but we can, you

797

know, maybe find somebody who can.

798

Um, but there are those cases where,

you know, unfortunately, like the,

799

the answer that you want, you just,

you just can't get it, but, uh,

800

reach out to us and we'll totally

chat and figure out what's going on.

801

DrG: And that makes sense, right?

802

Because that's what we're about.

803

We're about answering questions.

804

It's just the nature of what we do.

805

Dr. Stern: That's right.

806

The biggest question I get asked

is, is, you know, why dead, right?

807

Um, you know, for entomology,

it's, it's how long dead?

808

Uh, you know, so, so you

just ask a question and we

809

try to come up with a plan.

810

DrG: Excellent.

811

Well, thank you so much for taking

the time for being here, to be here.

812

Uh, I've really enjoyed this conversation.

813

I think it's a great start to our To,

to getting more of these episodes out.

814

So, uh, this has been great.

815

I hope that, that the listeners have

learned and anything that people have

816

not gotten, we've given them resources

and websites to, to follow up so

817

that they can get more information.

818

So I hope you have a great day with

the rest of your day and to everybody

819

that's listening thank you for

listening and thank you for caring.