Most healthcare mistakes aren't knowledge problems. They're communication problems.

Devon Climer is a speech pathologist and communication specialist, and she works with people on how they actually come across, which turns out to matter enormously in medicine. How you explain a diagnosis. How you hand off a patient. How you say something hard to a family.

This one is useful for pre-PAs in a way you might not expect. Interviews are a communication test more than a knowledge test. So is your personal statement. So is every patient interaction you'll have as a PA. The skills Devon talks about are the same ones that get you in and then make you good at the job.

We get practical about it, including what to do when you know you're not being understood.

What we cover:

• Why miscommunication causes so many problems in clinical settings
• How to explain medical information without talking down to people
• Communicating clearly when you're stressed or rushed
• What empathy actually sounds like out loud
• Habits that make you hard to understand, and how to drop them
• Why these same skills decide how your PA school interview goes

Resources:

PA School Interview Guide: https://www.thepaplatform.com/physician-assistant-school-interview-guide

Mock Interview: https://www.thepaplatform.com/services/mock-interview

Free Application Timeline: https://www.thepaplatform.com/services/free-application-timeline

Pre-PA Counseling: https://www.thepaplatform.com/services/pre-pa-counseling

Mentioned in this episode:

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Today's episode is a little different.

We're hearing from Devin Clymer, a speech pathologist who is a communication specialist.

Let's hear what she has to say.

Welcome to the Pre PA Club Podcast.

If you want to learn how to become a physician assistant, you're in the right place.

I'm your host, Savannah Perry.

Let's get to it.

I want to thank mypa Resource and PA School Prep for sponsoring the Pre PA Club Podcast.

So mypa Resource is a personal statement editing service that edits only PA school essays, only edited by PAs and most of us have admissions experience, so I am one of the editors.

Definitely check them out if you need help with your content grammar flow, making sure that you are on track for for turning in your application and you can use the code Future PA for a discount on any of their service options.

Hey guys, welcome to the podcast.

This is Savannah Perry, your host.

I am a dermatology PA the host of this Pre PA Club Podcast and the creator of the PA Platform, which is a website that should help answer all of your Pre PA questions.

If you've never checked my that out, now is a great time.

With CASPA opening in just about a month and a half, you've still got some time to work on your application.

I have some things coming up that are going to help you do that that we need to talk about before we get to our interview with Devin, which you are going to love her, she is so sweet.

If all goes well, this should also be on YouTube.

I had some issues with the episode last week, but working on getting that posted.

But this should be on YouTube as well.

But Devin actually founded a healthcare communication consulting business called Communications Connected and so she helps healthcare professionals learn how to effectively communicate to get the most out of their medical careers and provide the best patient care possible.

If you've worked in medicine, you have probably realized that communication can can be an issue at times and so we're going to hear from Devin on some techniques and things that you can keep in mind for dealing with conflict and I think even some of these kind of points and thoughts you can take with you into interviews or ethical settings.

So a lot of just really great info in today's interview and you'll be able to check out all of Devin's information on Instagram at Communications Connected or her website, communicationsconnected.com and I'm so glad she reached out.

I'm trying to have a lot of variety on the podcast this year and I think so far we've had that.

But if there's something you want to hear or you want me to be on the lookout for.

I'm happy to do that.

All right, some things coming up.

If you follow along with the PA platform on Instagram, you probably saw that this week I announced that there is another book coming out and this will be the PA School Personal Statement Statement Guide.

This is something I've been working on for about three years.

Apparently that's how long it takes me to get something done and I'm really excited about it.

I think I've just, you know, I've been editing personal statements for a very long time.

It's something that everyone struggles with and so I just, I'm putting everything together into this book.

So it will be available next week on Amazon and on the PA Platform website and be on the lookout on Instagram for giveaways and information.

But we talk about logistics of the essay, content mistakes.

It's got brainstorming, worksheets and prompts, editing, and a master checklist to make sure you're on track.

It also has a bunch of essays.

So I think there are 12 essays in there with comments and different types of scenarios that you can kind of get an idea of what you need to be doing for your essay.

Then there's also sections on supplemental essays, essays at the interview, and then experience details.

So it really covers a lot of material.

It's about 200 pages.

You can use it more as a reference, but shouldn't take you too long to get through.

But be on the lookout for that.

Very exciting.

Also, if you're listening to this in real time, Next Tuesday on March 16th at 8:30pm Eastern will be the next free monthly webinar and we are talking about CASPA because everyone always has a ton of cast of questions.

So that'll be next week.

The link is in the buy or in the description to sign up.

I'll also be posting on social media, so that is definitely something to be on the lookout for.

One other thing coming up is in April, April 12th through 15th, we'll be holding a CASPA Boot Camp Summit.

So this is going to be every night at 8pm to 10pm Eastern.

Those sessions will be recorded, but you can find all the information for that on prepaconference.com and if you have any questions about that, let me know.

That link is also in the description.

I'll be talking more about speakers and specifics in the upcoming episodes and weeks, but just wanted to go ahead and give you a heads up to mark your calendars.

I think that's all my announcements for now, but let's get to our interview with Devin and I will talk to you guys later.

Well, my name is Devin Clymer.

I am a medical speech pathologist and also a communication specialist and consultant.

I work in a hospital currently, per diem still.

And recently, recently I founded my own business, a healthcare communication consulting business called Communications Connected.

And I just help dedicated healthcare professionals learn how to effectively communicate with not only patients, but also their colleagues and, you know, with job interviews and things like that, just to get the most out of their medical careers.

So that's kind of, you know, my mission with that.

Interesting.

Yeah, we'll definitely get into hearing some of your tips in that area for sure.

Yeah, yeah.

Great.

So what has, like your educational path looked like?

How did you get into this?

Sure.

So by in terms of my, you know, speech therapy educational path, it's been kind of straightforward.

I went to Marquette University in Milwaukee, Wisconsin for undergrad and majored in speech pathology.

So I kind of came into college knowing that's what I wanted to do.

And then I came back home to the Cleveland, Ohio area and I went to Case Western Reserve University for graduate school.

And, you know, it's there I majored in communication sciences and disorders.

And I chose Case Western because it was very medical and research focused.

I kind of knew right off the bat that I didn't want to work in a school.

You know, I, you know, just had it in my head I wanted to work in the hospital.

So I kind of got to skip, you know, the school setting and all that, which was great for me.

You know, I know a lot of people like that, but for me it was perfect.

So that was where I really got, you know, a lot of experience just training in hospitals.

Mostly I did one placement in like a long term acute care setting, which was great too.

And then straight out of grad school, I was able to get a job at one of my last rotations, which was really kind of like the perfect world aligning there that I was able to get that.

And yeah, ever since I've been working in hospitals and it was my work in hospitals where I came up with this idea of really digging into communication skills training for healthcare professionals.

Just during my time, I had been asked to give in services to.

Mostly a lot of times it was medical residents or medical students even, and nurses just all about communicating.

Usually they were asking me to come talk about communication with the interdisciplinary team and how to make that as effective and efficient as possible.

And it was just from Speaking with a lot of, you know, people I worked with of all different, you know, backgrounds, you know, whether it was nurses, doctors, physicians, assistants, you know, just a lot of different people where it seemed like, you know, especially depending on the program or the specific training, that communication skills weren't really taught all that much.

So that's kind of.

Then, you know, what spurred me to kind of create this.

And, yeah, from there, it's been history.

Yeah, it really isn't something.

Yeah.

A lot of people think communication is common sense.

Yeah, sure.

There are definitely, I think, strategies and things that you can work on.

Yeah, probably the one communicating and the one being communicated too.

Totally.

Yeah.

And I think.

I think it's kind of when you're put in a situation where maybe you had a really not so great, you know, interaction either with a patient or with their families or with a co worker, and then that's kind of when you realize, like, oh, well, maybe it would be helpful to have, you know, some strategies in my back pocket that I would be able to pull out so that, you know, I could make my interactions just a little more positive in the end, you know.

So I think that's something that, especially in the medical field, you know, people go through when during that time it can be really stressful and, you know, kind of a lot.

I know we've all had those, like, really difficult situations or difficult patients and their families and stuff like that.

So I think it's something we all kind of go through for sure.

And that's what I remember.

In PA school, we did have one.

He was a physician, and I forgot what the name of the class was.

It was something.

I almost want to say it was just.

They put it into, like, ethics or something.

But, yeah, he would come and he.

Made us all do role playing with different scenarios and felt so weird and silly.

Like, it was actual scenarios that you face once you get into working in medicine.

Like dealing with angry patients, Difficult, bad news.

Yeah, all of those things.

And so totally pressure in front of.

Your whole class to have to.

Yes, doctor.

But ultimately, like, it was.

It was really good practice.

Yeah, sure.

I know it seems like, because I know at one of the hospitals I worked at, they did something similar where, you know, it involved a lot of role playing.

And, you know, I know personally, like, my personality is.

I just don't.

I feel weird doing that, you know, especially, like.

Yeah, especially, like, on the spot, like, in front of people.

So I think that's hard.

Like, I get what, you know, the whole premise of is just to you know, try to put yourself in a situation that you may likely come across, but it can definitely be something that's nerve wracking to do in front of people.

Yeah, a little weird, but yeah, for sure.

By the.

About the extent that we got.

Yeah.

What as just for people who we have obviously a lot of people listening who are thinking about becoming PAs, but also interested in other professions.

Like what do you do as far as being a speech therapist?

Sure, yeah.

So like I said, I work in the hospital setting, so mainly in hospitals.

Speech.

Speech therapists, I like to say, like, we kind of COVID the lungs up and a lot of what we do involves assessing and treating swallowing and swallowing disorders, which, you know, a lot of times people don't think about, you know, that being something that's impaired.

But we see it so often just with people who are, you know, critically ill or, you know, especially people with respiratory, you know, illnesses or failures going on.

You know, that's something we definitely see a lot.

And of course, like strokes, brain injuries, things like that.

Those are a lot of patients we work with.

But yeah, a lot of what we do is assess and treat this swallowing or the disordered swallowing.

So we just determine whether it's safe or perhaps not safe for a patient to begin eating or drinking.

Or maybe we determine that it is safe, but we have to make some modifications at that point.

We would modify the patient's diet textures or liquid consistencies to make the liquids a bit more thicker so that they're a little bit more easily controlled when going down.

Then we also do the modified barium swallow studies or instrumental swallowing assessments.

That gives us more an objective picture of how a patient is or is not able to swallow safely.

It's like a video X ray we do down in radiology or at some hospitals too.

Speech therapists use the tiny scopes to look at it that way.

Just at bedside, which is really nice.

My hospital doesn't have that, but I know a lot are starting to, especially in ICUs and stuff.

So that's pretty cool.

And then other than that too, we treat speech and language disorders and also cognitive communicative disorders.

So that's kind of where we see a lot of the brain injuries or we see a lot of stroke patients who perhaps have some dysarthria going on or aphasias where they're just unable to come up with words they want to say, or maybe their speech is just a bit slurred or something like that.

So that's kind of, you know, it in a nutshell.

But I would say probably like 75 to 80% of what I do in a hospital is assessing and treating swallowing.

Yeah.

And so.

And so do you.

Can someone be a speech therapist just coming out with a bachelor's, or do you pretty much have to go to a master's?

You have to get a master's.

I know some states have some speech pathology assistance, and for that it's a bachelor's degree.

But for to be a certified speech pathologist, you have to have a master's and then do a nine month fellowship, and then that's how then you're able to get fully certified and then kind of start practicing on your own.

Okay, cool.

Yeah, that's really interesting that.

Yeah, I'm sure people have interest in that area as well.

For sure.

So let's talk a little bit on the communication side of what.

And I mean, working in medicine, you see these issues all the time.

Yeah, but what issues were you kind of observing that made you realize, like, this is an area some people may need to work on?

Totally.

Well, you know, I think kind of what, Especially as a new grad, like when I was first coming into my first job out of school, what really struck with me was when I saw a provider kind of on the opposite side, just being very compassionate and taking the time to talk with patients, even if they didn't have a ton of time, still kind of sitting down and making the patient feel like they had all the time in the world to really explain things to them.

That's kind of what struck me, you know, at first, and then you know, kind of as I just continued working on, you know, it was just this idea that in medicine, you know, sometimes, I know personally when I work in the hospital, I don't have obviously endless minutes to spend with patients.

You know, a lot of times I have a long list of people I need to see and, you know, I kind of got to be in and out.

But I think it's how you make the most of your time, even if it's a short amount of time that can really, you know, make a difference.

So I know for me, when.

A lot of times, when I was in a room assessing a patient and let's say the medical team, I work at a teaching hospital, so a lot of times it was a huge team coming in with the attending and a bunch of residents and medical students.

A lot of times I would see the team come in and there wasn't really an introduction as to who they are or what they do.

And it was just kind of Like, a really brief, you know, interaction that didn't, you know, then the team would leave and the patient would be like, who was that?

And what is going on?

And, you know, but in the moment, they didn't really feel comfortable asking, you know, for clarification and things like that.

So I think also, you know, that's definitely something that I, you know, I don't want to say I see it a lot.

But you do see it, especially, like I said, just kind of being short on time and having a lot of people to see and stuff like that.

So I think that's something we're all challenged with just working in medicine, you know, just feeling like you're kind of, you know, just running short on time and, you know, feeling a bit overwhelmed.

But like I said, you know, there's been so many providers I've seen where it's like, wow, like, this person really does, you know, kind of go the extra mile.

And what I like to tell, especially my clients, is that communication doesn't have to take up a ton of your extra time.

You know, it doesn't have to take up a ton of time if you're doing it right and, you know, doing it in a way that makes, you know, the patient feel heard and understood and all that.

It really, you know, doesn't take a lot of time.

So that's what I help teach people.

So what do you think makes communication more effective?

Like what?

Yeah, so, yeah, for sure.

I mean, really, when we just look at communication, it's really, you know, by basic definition, just the sending and receiving of any type of message, you know, But I feel like it's what happens in the middle that can be so gray and so nuanced and can be really up for interpretation if not done effectively.

So I think effective communication is just really minimizing that opportunity for misinterpretation and just being, you know, very concise and clear in what you're trying to say, so that you're just ensuring that whoever you're talking to is able to comprehend, you know, your intended message just so that things don't get misconstrued, you know, especially in the medical setting.

You know, the biggest thing, you know, I think I hear is when there's been instances where errors have happened because of a miscommunication or, you know, or a lack of communication altogether.

So that's something we definitely want to try to prevent as best we can, for sure.

And that's.

Yeah.

And I mean, I'm six years into my career as a P.A.

Yeah.

And I mean, there are still times where, you know, things, the ball gets dropped or there's, I think, something that maybe patients or anyone who doesn't work in medicine don't understand is like all the steps that have to happen, like a medicine to get sent.

Like I, I want a certain medicine.

The medical assistant has to put in the emr, that has to get to the pharmac.

The pharmacist has to make sure it goes through insurance.

Insurance, yes or no.

The pharmacist has to fill what we wanted or look for other options and come back to us or.

And so there's all these steps and all of these ways that things can happen.

Yeah.

In the process, totally.

Which is, yeah, I don't, I don't know how to fix that part of.

Things, but I know there really are just so many steps.

So I think, like I said, just trying to, at least on your part, you know, ensuring that what you're responsible for is being, being performed in a way that's easily understood by another person.

I think that's, you know, the best way to kind of make the best of that situation.

Because it really is.

There's so many hoops you have to jump through just to get something done.

I know how that goes.

Totally.

Yeah.

Most of like our pre PA audience and I mean everyone's kind of in the same boat, but things I hear a lot are interacting with patients and with them, but I would say even more so communication within the workplace and co workers, colleagues and supervisors.

And you know, sometimes people feel like they can't speak up about certain things or that they, you know, try to communicate something and, and aren't being heard or nothing happens.

What I mean, do you have any like, practical strategies or techniques for people that they could kind of start thinking about in those types of situations?

Yeah, you know, I think one of the biggest things just, you know, and this kind of goes for any, I think, medical professional, someone just working in the healthcare field is just kind of knowing not only your worth but your role and how it contributes to the team.

Just from my own experience, that's where I've had the most success kind of getting something done or like creating some tools sort of change because especially at the hospital I, the first one I worked at right out of school, we were kind of in the phase of like building up more of a presence on the acute floors and having to really, you know, kind of change how things were being done.

And it just took a lot of, you know, meeting with not only physicians and but like, managers and things like that and just kind of really communicating what it is your role is and how it benefits the team and the patient, of course, too.

So I think that's something to always keep in mind is just knowing your role and the value that it brings to a team and being able to communicate that in a way that does kind of really highlight your value and what you're able to bring to the table.

Because I know it can be tricky, you know, especially just dealing with, you know, people of different, you know, just all the different professionals we work with in medicine.

So I think just knowing that, you know, you have a specific skill set that, you know, other people don't, and, you know, this is what you're able to, you know, contribute to the group, I think that's one of the best ways to go about it, you know, too, because I think, at least for me, there's been times where, you know, I feel like I have had to speak up.

And it's intimidating, you know, especially depending on who you're talking to, it's intimidating.

But I think if you go.

Go at it from a way where, you know, this is how we can best help the patient, and, you know, I think that's how you are able to kind of have the most success with doing that.

But I totally get it.

It's hard to feel like you can speak up in that sense.

But, you know, at the end of the day, we all just, I, you know, hopefully if, you know, all of us in medicine just want what's best for our patients.

So I think that's kind of something important to keep in mind.

And on the patient side,.

What.

What things do you recommend or find are helpful in kind of making those communications more effective?

I know on being a pa, you know, I. I think I heard one time that a patient retains like 10% of what you tell them in the room.

Yes.

Yeah.

I mean, it's hard.

And I even think, like, when I go to the doctor, like, sometimes I walk away and I'm like, wait, what?

Like, what did I just hear?

You know, And I'm, you know, I'm even someone who works in health care.

So I can imagine how it is for someone who, you know, isn't familiar with, you know, a hospital or, you know, a doctor's office and things like that.

So I think one of the biggest things you can do is just be really self aware of the type of language you're using.

I know a lot of times for us, we use our medical jargon and it's just second nature to us.

But a lot of times patients don't know what those things are.

I think obviously if you have a patient who is a healthcare professional, then that's a bit different.

But more often you may not.

It's just important to be aware of the types of specific words you're using and just be really hyper aware of that just so that you're making sure that your patient can understand fully what it is you're explaining to them.

And yeah, I think for sure, just being concise, just give the important highlights and always circle back to that too, of course, explain the whole picture as much as you need to in a concise way.

And then I always like to, at the very end of an interaction to kind of go back and quickly summarize just a handful of important points, or not even maybe just a couple, just so that that's kind of fresh in the patient's mind and makes it a little bit easier for them to hopefully be able to recall it later on.

And just too just kind of being aware of non verbal expression goes a long way, especially in the inpatient setting too, I think, where machines beeping and you know, there's noise in the hallway and stuff like that.

You just got to be really aware of that because that can make it really difficult too for a patient to kind of focus and pay attention to whatever it is you're saying.

And two, they're probably tired.

I mean, I feel like it's so hard to sleep in a hospital and they're sick and not feeling good most likely.

So it can be tough.

So, you know, just kind of being aware of, you know, making sure you're obviously speaking loud enough and making appropriate eye contact just so that they feel engaged with you.

And you know, those are kind of the basics, but I think they really do go a long way.

I always like to, you know, sometimes I'm not able to, but I always like to try to like pull up a chair so that I'm on the same level as the patient.

Or you know, if their bed is like really low down to the ground, I kind of raise it up a little so that we're at least at like eye to eye a little bit so that I'm not like towering over them.

You know, I think that just helps make the situation just so that it's a bit more approachable and not, you know, not kind of so foreign to them.

And I think, you know, they appreciate it.

And I always too, I try to call the patient, I ask them, you know what they like to be called?

Because sometimes too, you know, if their name is, let's say, like, Thomas, but they go by Tom, and, you know, they might appreciate, I think just kind of adds like a personal touch to it.

And I think that's something that kind of means a lot to patients, especially when they're going through perhaps something that's a bit of a hard or stressful time for them.

So just kind of incorporating little personal touches, I think really helps too, and just truly treating them like an individual.

I think it goes a long way.

I agree completely.

And in my clinic, I do two things that I try to help with this, but at the end of any appointment, I always ask them, you know, do you have any other skin questions specific enough that we're not going to talk about?

Probably your blood pressure, but I want to give them that opportunity that if.

If they have anything that we didn't.

Didn't cover or that isn't clear, yes, we can go over it and address it.

And then we also try to write everything down.

And yes, my medical assistant is great about.

If I'm talking about a routine or specific products or whatever, they'll write everything down for them.

Yes, they're walking out with that piece of paper and not feeling like they're trying to remember everything I said, because sometimes I'll see them as I start to talk, their eyes kind of get big or they start looking around like, where's my phone?

Or I need a pen.

And totally.

Yeah, got it.

I'll write it down for you.

Yes.

And that's like, yeah, that's perfect.

Because I think just having something, you know, in written form is so much better because then that's something they can obviously refer to in case, you know, it's hard.

It's hard to pay attention, you know, and like, take everything in when you're.

You're in that type of setting, it's hard.

So, yeah, writing it down is for sure one of the best ways to.

To help make sure patients are able to kind of recall what you told them.

So that's great point about sitting down.

I think I also read a study somewhere that said, I don't remember the exact numbers.

You might know it.

But it's like if you are sitting down in a room, the patient perceives you as being there longer.

Yes, for sure.

Yes, totally.

And it does.

I mean, just think about it.

I feel like that makes so much sense.

I mean, if you're pulling up a chair, it does, you know, kind of give off, you know, the impression that you're, you know, just willing to kind of sit down and really go through things with them.

And I think that's really, you know, appreciated for sure.

And I think too, I mean, there's lots of studies now, which is great, just about the effect of communication on the patient provider relationship and how that can even impact outcomes, which is really cool.

I read a study recently that was all about how the patient provider relationship affects outcomes in people with chronic disease.

I think it was, I forget, I'm pretty sure it was diabetes.

And what they found was that people who felt like they could trust their providers and who felt like they really were being listened to were more likely to carry out the treatment plan.

Which to me, you know, I think that's, you know, that's great.

But to me it makes sense.

You know, I feel like when someone feels like they're in good hands, then they're more likely to kind of follow through with things.

So, yeah, things just like pulling up a chair, I mean, it goes a long way for sure.

Yeah.

Do you.

So these are random questions I didn't send you, but yeah, no, that's fine.

That or have any tips?

Do you think that either masks or EMR computer stuff has affected how we communicate with patients or each other?

Yeah, you know, masks make it, they do make it tricky just because a lot of times, you know, facial expressions have such a big impact on our communication.

You know, it's just one of those ways to non verbally communicate that communicates for itself a lot of times.

So just being aware that you're not showing, you know, it's so hard to like see if you're smiling when you have a mask on, obviously.

So you have to just be aware of that and kind of, you know, just keep that in the back of your mind when you're interacting with someone because the patient isn't going to have that visual feedback to rely on that they normally would.

And to mask masks can make it a little harder, especially for our patients who maybe are hard of hearing.

It can make it a little bit more difficult for the patient to hear you.

You just have to be super aware of that and adjust your volume up as needed.

And also even enunciating a little bit more than you would.

So just over enunciating a bit helps too, especially for maybe our elderly patients who just have a harder time hearing in general, you know.

And I find myself too just kind of making sure I'm, you know, my tone is just, you know, I always try to be aware that I'm using a tone that's, you know, friendly and kind and inviting and approachable.

But I think with masks, we have to be especially aware of that.

Just because we don't.

Can't rely on, like, us smiling to show off that, you know, we're there and, you know, are, you know, just kind and giving off that environment that is approachable for our patients.

So I think it does kind of, you know, make things a little bit more difficult.

But luckily, you know, just strategies like that are things that you can do that can.

That can for sure help.

And, you know, I always try not to, especially if I am, you know, typing, you know, pulling up a note while I am with a patient, I always just try to make sure I'm facing the patient and I don't have my back to them.

You know, I think that's something that's really important.

And then if the patient is telling you something and it's really important and, you know, something that's obviously troubling, I always, you know, stop what I'm doing and just, you know, give all my attention to the patient.

You know, I just had spoken with a client of mine who's a nurse, and she, you know, was struggling with feeling like, you know, there's so much you have to be doing in an interaction, you know, and just providing meds and checking lines and things like that.

And, of course, you know, we all, you know, it kind of just goes back to, you know, having to only a certain amount of time to be with a patient, but just making the most of it and making sure the patient is feeling heard and understood is just kind of always, you know, my message.

And, you know, if the patient obviously is trying to tell you something that's really important, you know, I do like to just kind of stop and give my full attention so that they just feel like, you know, I'm truly listening and there's no distractions and things like that.

So I think that's just important for us to learn how to gauge.

But I know, like, in a lot of settings, things, you know, you're kind of expected to be typing and, you know, and while you're seeing the patient.

So I get that it's kind of a struggle, but like I said, just kind of gauging the situation and, you know, giving your visual attention, I think really helps.

For sure.

Yeah.

And a lot of that just comes with practice and knowing that you're gonna mess up probably, and.

Oh, yeah, for sure.

Totally.

Yeah, for sure.

I mean, it all takes practice and nothing's going to be perfect, you know, especially right out of the gates.

But, you know, I think just keeping in mind that, you know, you're in the profession that is working with people who are likely coming to you with something that's, you know, bothering them or, you know, hurting them or, you know, things like that.

And even if not, you know, they're still, you know, seeking you for preventative reasons.

And that's just as super important, too.

So I think just remembering that we're in a people profession is kind of, you know, the gold golden rule there.

You know, there definitely is a service aspect of it.

Totally different.

So.

Yeah.

Well, where can everybody kind of like find you and find more information on all of this?

Sure.

Yeah.

So I have a website, it's communicationsconnected.com.

So that's kind of my main website there.

And I'm also on Instagram, just at Communications Connected is my Instagram handle.

And I do a lot on LinkedIn too.

And that's just my first and last name.

Devin Clymer.

It's Climber.

Like a mountain climber, but no B.

So Cli Mer.

And my first name is Devin D E V O N. But yeah, so I'm on LinkedIn and that's kind of where, you know, I talk to a lot of people for sure.

But yeah, usually just LinkedIn, Instagram and my website are the best ways to find me.

Perfect.

I'll make sure all of that is in the description to.

Yeah.

Connect with you, but thank you.

Oh, and my.

My email.

I'm sorry, I should get that too.

Is it the one I used?

Yes.

Yeah.

Communications Connected at Gmail.

I put all of that.

And so that anyone who feels like maybe they need some more help or has questions can contact you and continue the conversation there.

Awesome.

Well, Savannah, thank you so much for your time.

I really appreciate it.