What do you do when your spouse is diagnosed with a terminal illness only a year into your marriage? Jarie Bolander, author of, “Ride or Die: Loving Through Tragedy, A Husband’s Memoir,” offers a unique perspective when it comes to such a situation.

0:09 Introduction to today’s guest 

1:55 Jarie and Jane’s story 

9:02 Why write, “Ride or Die?”

14:40 How did you handle the stress of the situation? 

17:17 Learning to ask for help 

24:23 Tell us about your spiritual journey 

30:36 The importance of a strong community 

For video versions of episode 48 and onward visit us on Youtube.

Twanna Henderson: Welcome to T Time Spiritual Conversations For, With and About Women. I'm your host Twanna Henderson. And as always, I want to remind you to like this podcast and to share it with someone in your life.

I am looking forward to introducing you to our guest for today. Our guest is Jarie Bolander. Jarie is an engineer by training and entrepreneur by nature and a leader by endurance. He holds a degree in electrical engineering, and an MBA in technology management. Jarie has been managing engineers and scientists for over 20 years, and is an inventor, or co-inventor, on over 10 patents. Jarie blogs about innovation, leadership, management and entrepreneurship. He is also an author and his recent book is entitled, "Ride or Die: Loving Through Tragedy, A Husband's Memoir."

Jarie, welcome to T Time.

Jarie Bolander: Appreciate, appreciate it very much. Thank you so much for having me on the show.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah! It's so good to have you, and I'm looking forward to just talking with you about your life, your journey, and your book. You know, we've talked, we had a conversation a little bit ago, and you know, you sit in a very unique role. You know, you're this kind of techie guy who found himself dealing with the curve balls of life when your wife got diagnosed with a terminal illness. Tell us about your wife, Jarie, and what caused you to write the book, "Ride or Die?"

Jarie Bolander: Yeah. Wow, where to start with that. How do we encapsulate Jane in a small sentence is hard, hard to do, as most people that, you know, you love and fall in love with and you admire a lot.

You know, she was an entrepreneur. Woman, woman, minority entrepreneur in the sport's publicity space, which meant that she dealt with a lot of the misogyny and challenges and issues that professional athletes have in one form or the other. And she was extremely successful in doing that. And I just really admired her tenacity and her just work ethic and her general open heart. She was, she was the first friend you would call if something went wrong. That's just the way she was. So, when I first met her, you know, it wasn't this immediate, like love at first sight kind of thing. I think it was more like I was just enamored by the fact that she was this woman that just had a mission. Like she just wanted to do good. She had a great business, and she really was looking for that partner in crime, so to speak, to share life with. And then, you know, over time, we fell in love and, you know, we had this shared kind of ethos life experience, you know. Both wanted to be more than just, you know, clocking in a nine to five and wanted to make an impact in the world. And, you know, the thing that was really also pretty awesome about her, she volunteered a lot and helped other women minority entrepreneurs to try to better themselves. I just always felt the, you just were drawn to her. You know, it was like a, you know, there's just some people where one, they immediately make you comfortable and two, when you talk to them, they listen.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah, yeah.

Jarie Bolander: It sounds weird, but...

Twanna Henderson: No, no. I get it.

Jarie Bolander: She, she just loved that. So, it was, yeah, it was, it was pretty, pretty crazy that she picked someone like me. So glad.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah. So talk to us about when she got diagnosed, what she got diagnosed with and what happened with that?

Jarie Bolander: Yeah, so as most young newlywed couples that want to have kids, started to try to have kids. And she had multiple miscarriages pretty quickly. And you know, she was at the time 34, which, you know, most people know miscarriages are common. Most women don't even know they have them. I think upwards of maybe 50% of, you know, pregnancies end in miscarriage, just don't even know. Just part of the process. And it can be very, there's a lot of shame and some of it, it just feels just weird. You know, like, "What's wrong with me?" You know?

Twanna Henderson: Yeah.

Jarie Bolander: There's a lot, a lot of emotion that goes on.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah.

Jarie Bolander: Went to the emergency room. They immediately checked her in. Put her in the corral. I think it might have been 15 minutes later where two of these very concerned looking doctors walked in. And they said, "Well, Mrs. Bolander, we think you have leukemia." And to say that wasn't a sucker punch to the gut. I mean, it's hard. It's hard to explain if you've never heard those words from a doctor.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah.

Jarie Bolander: I mean, it wasn't even me getting it. I mean, I'm there, you know, with her. It's not even, I'm the one getting the diagnosis. But, the air left the room. And a lot of crying a lot of like, "What are we going to do?" And then all of a sudden, you know, what we normally would do kicked in, you know. We were doers. We were “solve the problem” type of people.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah.

Jarie Bolander: I always say, you know, I was captain of Team Jane, and my job was to make this, to make sure the MVP survives. That's like, that was like my mantra, right? And so we sort of sprung into action. And, you know, she battled leukemia for 15 months.

Twanna Henderson: Okay.

Jarie Bolander: Before she ended up, ended up dying.

Twanna Henderson: Now leukemia is a type of cancer, or blood, blood cancer?

Jarie Bolander: Yes, correct. Blood cancer, yes. Correct. She had acute myeloid leukemia, which is a blood cancer that's aggressive. A lot of people as they get older could have chronic myeloid leukemia, or, you know, your leukemia cells are ones that just don't differentiate in your bone marrow. So, we have a bunch of cells in our bone marrow that we create. And then they differentiate into various things. When you have leukemia, they don't differentiate, they just for whatever reason stop working. So, the thing that showed up in her was something called platelets, which are kind of the glue that holds your, your body together. So, when you bleed, and the cut heals that little kind of, I don't know, pus, not pus, but it's like a clear little fluid, that's platelets. That just make sure that you don't bleed out.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah, yeah.

Jarie Bolander: And then those go away. Can't... You get bruised, you get bleeding. So, yeah, it was a, you know, what's interesting is that, you know, that, that 15 months was obviously some of the most intense time I've ever lived.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah, that's not a long time when you're talking about from, you know, diagnosis to, to death. You know, 15 months is not a long time at all.

Jarie Bolander: It blew by pretty fast. And we had, at that point, you know, we were newlyweds, basically, I mean I think we had been married a little over a year.

Twanna Henderson: Oh my goodness.

Jarie Bolander: You know, it's kind of like, "Oh, I guess we're really going to see if these vows actually hold up."

Twanna Henderson: Yeah, yeah.

Jarie Bolander: Which, you know, was, was another whole thing. And I think, you know, your question you had before was, "Why write the book?" And, you know, it's, you know, one of the reasons I write is to make sense of the world. That's just the way my mind works. And I figured, you know, all the feelings I was feeling, all the loneliness, the sorrow, the frustration, the challenges, all those things. I'm like, "Other people must be experience this. I just cannot be alone in this struggle." Because generally, people don't talk about this stuff. They just don't. They're like in their own little world. You know, good on them. Like you got to deal with what you got to deal with, but I truly felt, "Gosh. I don't want to feel so alone anymore." And I think it was important to write it down. So, one of the things that we had done during her illness, which was a huge help was, we created this thing called a care circle. Jane's care circle was basically a Google group email list where I would occasionally send out an update. And what was cathartic about that, and I think what was also very helpful was, as you can imagine, when someone gets diagnosed with a life threatening illness, everyone calls you. And they just, everyone wants to hear the story, "What's going on? How's she doing?" And there was a point where the day she got diagnosed, I think I must have taken 12 phone calls, you know, and I was just exhausted. I just, I can't, I cannot tell this story yet again.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah, yeah.

Jarie Bolander: It's important to kind of rally and make a mechanism where we could share things and people wanted to help as you can imagine. "Help, what can we do? How do we do it? Etc, etc." So, I felt, well, if anyone else has to go through this, I hope, and especially from a male perspective, which you don't really find a lot of books on that or a lot of, you know, it's not a lot, a lot out there from the male perspective.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah. I mean, that's the unique thing I think about your story is you sharing from, you know, a male perspective, and certainly not to stereotype men. But, you know, typically men don't share, you know, their feelings and how, you know, how they're handling things. And, and so, and certainly not in this, you know, way, you know, particularly in areas of loss and grief. So, you really had to become her caregiver?

Jarie Bolander: Mhmm. Yeah.

Twanna Henderson: So, what was that like? I mean, what was it like to move from this newlywed husband, to caregiver of your wife?

Jarie Bolander: Yeah, we always like to say, you know, we're the power couple, you know, like, around town. We live in San Francisco. I still do. But you know, that's where we lived, and everyone knew us, you know. Mayor London Breed, she was running for supervisor. She was a friend. She's the one who'd introduced us. She's the one that married us. I mean, it was like, we knew people around town. So, when, when she got sick, it was this immediate, it well, not immediate, I mean, the tactical day to day changed. Like okay, we got to get you a good hospital, we got to get you to these appointments, you got to make sure you're not like all these things. I was at a startup at the time, I actually had to step away from the startup and run her business, which was a PR and marketing firm, because that was, you know, really only thing paying us and, and also I had the flexibility that I could work from anywhere. I could take care of her. We really had, she, she'd built something that was really easy to run remote. So...

Twanna Henderson: Yeah.

Jarie Boladner: It slowly evolved from power couple, you know, husband, wife to patient caregiver, over time. And, you know, it's interesting, because it's the it's the loss of that kind of intimacy that just wasn't available. Like, how can you blame someone for not being available to be a partner when they're literally fighting for their life?

Twanna Henderson: Yeah.

Jarie Bolander: And yeah, you're gonna, I felt, you know, upset and angry and resentful. And like, all the things you feel because look, you lost something. And that loss was a huge loss. But on the other side, it's like, well, you know, one, I mean, I love my wife, I need to do something to help her, and two, if the role was reversed, she would have done the same for me. I mean, I think that's the reason why the title, "Ride or Die" is just such a powerful title that I can't take the full credit for. My editor Brooke did that. She's the one who came up with it. But it just really captivated and encapsulated, like, "Oh, we're in it to win it like to the end. Like, how else are we going to roll? How else are you gonna..." You know, I just couldn't fathom any other way to be like, I'm with you until we cannot go anywhere. So...

Twanna Henderson: So, let's talk about the stress of all of that. I mean, it's just that you know, I you know, I can't even imagine just all the stress. You running her business, you know, being her caregiver full time. How did you, how did you handle the stress of all of that?

Jarie Bolander: Um, at times very poorly. I mean, I drank, I drank a lot of alcohol and I smoked a lot of pot. I'll just be honest. I don't drink anymore. I don't smoke pot anymore. I've been sober for over five years from alcohol.

Twanna Henderson: Praise God!

Jarie Bolander: Yeah. It was just two full time jobs that were completely time consuming. Completely consuming to a point where it was just exhausting. I honestly, I think the reason why I could handle it okay, like, I don't think I handled it stellar. But, you know, I got the job done. Is um, you know, I was an endurance athlete. So I would do multi-day endurance events. I would do triathlons and all sorts of silly things. I mean, just ridiculous. Like, we ,we joke, you know, all my buddies joke, used to do this would say, "That sounds like a horrible idea. Where do I sign up?" Like, we're that kind of people right? And what endurance events teach you is, you know, take a breath, just one more step. Like just one more step. And, you know, I'd also played sports in high school, and one of the other things that was a very powerful metaphor was to take a knee. Like when things are going crazy, and you don't know what to do, just take a knee, take a breath, reassess, don't make rash decisions when clearly you're not ready for it.

Twanna Henderson: Right.

Jarie Bolander: And that was something that, you know, was so, such a, such a monumental realization that, "Oh, in some way, shape, or form actually trained for this." Not the situation. Not like having your wife get leukemia and dying. But, the stress and how to deal with stress. And again, I didn't deal with it great. Like I said, there were days where, you know, just to sleep just to feel numb, you had to numb yourself. Sometimes it was just so horrible.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah. Yeah.

Jarie Bolander: Just had to take a drink or take a puff of my vape pen.

Twanna Henderson: You know, there, there's a scripture that talks about, that our suffering produces perseverance and, you know, as a Christ follower, you know, I've found that leaning into my faith, you know, for encouragement or, and, and looking to others who can, you know, pray for me and pray with me has helped me to, to get through the hard times of life. Was it hard for you to ask for help?

Jarie Bolander: Yeah, very hard. I'm used to making stuff happen. Right? Entrepreneur, standard male ego. I would occasionally ask for directions, of course, but not always. So it's hard. It's hard. Well, partly it's hard because I felt I had to solve the problem. I mean, it might sound old fashioned, but it's my job to protect my wife, I'm sorry. Like, that's the, that's my attitude, and like, I'm failing at this miserably. And like, I gotta fix this.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah.

Jarie Bolander: And, you know, she would have done the same for me, like, so from a partnership point of view, you know, you protect yourself. And, look, I felt like I was failing to protect her and to help her. And so asking for help was just an admission of failure. You know? Thankfully, we had a great group of friends and family that would step in, even when I didn't know I needed help, or when I didn't ask for it. You know, when you deal with these sort of situations, it's actually hard to say what you need. I mean, what I really needed was Jane not to have leukemia. Like, you really want to know what I need. I don't want this anymore, right? Obviously, that's not, that's silly. But, you know, "What can I do for you?" I have no idea. I just, I'm trying to get through the day.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah.

Jarie Bolander: And so, that I think is part of the problem, too. Like when when people would ask, "What can I do for you?" They then would put the burden on me and I'm like, "I don't know." And it's just, it's just easier just to not say anything.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah.

Jarie Bolander: Although that was totally false. We needed like a lot of help.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah.

Jarie Bolander: And again, like her family, our friends stepped in big time.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah.

Jarie Bolander: Especially her parents, obviously were really just instrumental in us helping to get through it, but hard to ask for what you need when you don't know what it is, or you're just trying to like tread water like I can't.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah.

Jarie Bolander: No more leukemia would be great. Please can you do that?

Twanna Henderson: In a perfect world, yeah.

Jarie Bolander: In a perfect world, right.

Twanna Henderson: You know, you have a chapter titled. "The Only Easy Day Was Yesterday." What prompted that chapter?

Jarie Bolander: Well, I'm a big fan of like special operations and special forces people. And that's a Navy SEAL motto. And, it's so true. Because what's interesting about that is that it not only keeps you in the right mindset, that things could get worse, and you just have to prepare for the worst, but not be overly negative about it.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah.

Jarie Bolander: And I think when people hear that they're like, "Oh, you're just paranoid and pessimistic that the world is going to, you know, end and crazy, you know, there's going to be a lot of crazy things going on." And I don't think that's the truth. I think the truth is really be prepared for when things go wrong. And don't rest on your laurels. I think that's the other thing that's really powerful. It's like, yeah, okay, yesterday was a good day. I got through it. But what's the challenge of today that I need to either train for? Have my right attitude about? You know, there's another saying that could always be worse. That's like, it's true. It could always be worse. But that seems overly negative. But it's actually not overly negative. It's, I think that the mindset, which is really fascinating, is it's just take on what you're, what's in front of you. Like it's not about yesterday was a great day. If it was, awesome. It's what's in front of you. Like, so many times, I just had to do what was in front of me, and that, that really helped me. Okay. Take a breath. Take a knee. What's the thing in front of me?

Twanna Henderson: Yeah.

Jarie Bolander: That was so powerful. But yeah, that's inspired by their ethos.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah. Did you and Jane talk about her diagnosis?

Jarie Bolander: Yeah, we did. It's actually a chapter in the book where it kind of all comes to a head. She was amazingly gracious and courageous in dealing with her demise. I only hope that that time, I, I have that much courage.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah.

Jarie Bolander: She, she was worried about me. I mean, she even glibly said, she's like, "I'll be dead. What do I care? I worry about you." I'm like, "Whoa, who would say that, right?" Like, only someone that really loves you would be like, "I'm so worried about you that I don't care about what happens to me." And there were just, there were some really tough conversations. There were some very emotional situations where the ups and downs of the emotional roller coaster of that stuff is, it's enough that give you a heart attack, right? You know, "Am I gonna live? Am I gonna die? What happens after I die? Is this going to be painful? What's going to happen to you?" You know, cause she knew me, she knew I was going to not take it well. She knew I'd probably drink more than I should have, which is all the things I did. You know, again, no angel in this. Not perfect at all. I had a lot of mistakes that, you know, I'm just thankful that I had, you know, people helping me out, but we didn't talk about it a ton to the point where it was every day.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah.

Jarie Bolander: You know, every couple of months when she would be overly emotional about something or when she wanted real confirmation, you know, like that. When you're going through these sorts of life changing events, you know, it's just, you don't know, it's so unknown, but the unknown is just who knows what's going to happen to me. You know, you, you want some sort of comfort and I think she again, she, she just... I mean, I try to live every day as a gift because of her. You know, because like "Well, I got another day and you didn't," so...

Twanna Henderson: Yeah.

Jarie Bolander: I always wanna make this day the best I can make it.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah. And life is a gift. You know, you and I kind of briefly talked about your spiritual journey. What was your initial spiritual experience?

Jarie Bolander: So when I grew up, I grew up Methodist. All through, as I was a kid, all the way up to high school. Then, didn't go to church anymore after that until maybe my 30s, late 30s, where I started going to an Episcopal Church, up here in San Francisco. And then, you know, as life sometimes happens, it's just sort of like, priorities moved around. And I just, you know, I'm, it's an interesting question because there is a lot of, there's something called, people are like, you know, spiritual, but they're not religious, or there are various, you know, I would say, flavors of that. And, you know, it, it's, it's one of those things where when I was doing it, it gave me a lot of comfort in the community. I really was like the people here just like, thoughtful, you know, and they're loving. But then I had some challenges with the organized aspect of it, that some people do. And I even write in the book when, you know, Jane wasn't, wasn't religious. She didn't grow up religious, she grew up, she was Taiwanese/Chinese. Parents were from Taiwan. And so they were cultural Buddhists, I think would be the word I would I would use. But there was this great, it's in the book, this wonderful chaplain, who can't say enough good things about that hard job, befriended her. And one day I walk into her room, she had been in chemo for, this was the third round. I think she's, you know, each, each round of chemo is about five weeks in the hospital. So it's a horrible, miserable experience. And I think we were like two weeks into this, like, third round, this is crazy. The chaplain had come to see her that day. And they befriended her. Talked to her. You know, what's interesting about chaplaincy is that, you know, it's like, they meet you where you are. So there's a lot of questions she had. And you know, it's very kind and considerate. But the chaplain brought her a stuffed animal. And it was this little green stuffed animal that she named Greenie. And I walk into this again, it's in the book, I won't go through all of it, but I walk in and she's like, "Say hello to our son, Greenie." And I'm all, "Whoa, what's going on? Like are you hallucinating?"

Twanna Henderson: I know right?!

Jarie Bolander: "What's going on?" Right? Again, I've been I've been at work all day. And what's interesting is, she just sat down, and she said, "We need to say a prayer for Greenie." And I'm all, "Okay?" And again, this is the first time we've ever talked about this, you know, she had said, "What happens after and I go?" Well, you know, there's all these different things, Christian and whatever. And so she had known, but she's, this is the first time she's like wanted to pray, which I found, "Okay, well alright. Hey, whatever gets you through the day, and if you want to explore this we can." So, we said a prayer for Greenie. And then after that, pretty much every, I would say every night, when we were in the hospital, we would say a prayer. And you know, since I had the background, and both being Episcopalian and Methodist, she didn't, she didn't know how to say prayer, right? But she found great comfort.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah.

Jarie Bolander: And I thought, you know, how interesting that, you know, like, clearly she's dealing with the existential crisis of I may die. How am I going to deal with this? And she was exploring that. And, you know, when we had her celebration of life, we had a officiant that was a Lutheran pastor that, you know, there was aspects of what she, I think she would have wanted and the community that came together was, I think, really beautiful. You know? And so that aspect of it was, I think, for her very comforting, you know. But again, that Chaplain gave her a lot of comfort. Gave her Greenie, which is someone she loved very dearly. So.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah. I'm interested, are there any people in your family who are committed Christians?

Jarie Bolander: My whole family, basically.

Twanna Henderson: Oh.

Jarie Bolander: My whole dad, my whole, most of my dad's side. Yeah. One of my uncles is a Baptist, I think. There's a lot of missions down to South America.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah.

Jarie Bolander: Very much into that.

Twanna Henderson: And what's your perception of them?

Jarie Bolander: Um, well, I mean, it's interesting because the service aspect of it, they're very big into, of course, helping, helping folks. We also have in the family, some Muslims, you know, which is really interesting. And I think everyone that's doing that is like, in my mind, you know, they're trying to be good people and trying to follow the path as they see it. And I, I have a lot of respect for that. Because a lot of people, they're just trying to figure it out. Think they have found this path, you know, and I've got friends that are Mormon, it's a fascinating it's just a, it's a fascinating way, like, how things come together, you know? They seem to be happy and of service.

Twanna Henderson: Now I know you reached out to me about your book. What is it about nonprofits that attracts you? Because you've kind of sought me out?

Jarie Bolander: Yeah, yeah. Well, what's interesting is, again, I think the community, especially the spiritual religious community, actually do a really good job of handling grief and sorrow, and death of a loved one. I think it's one of the only institutions that actually has some insights and some training that I think a lot of us should appreciate. Right? You know, when, when we had the officiant come, you know, to do Jane's celebration of life, it was, there was a presence there and a calm, and like a caring that you don't, you know, you don't, it's hard for like, the general population to understand that, I think. I think that's one of the reasons I want to talk more about the book and talk more about how, you know, we're all kind of, we all, we have to meet people where they are, but also be conscious and kind to their journey and where they're at. And, again, it can be really lonely to go through a catastrophic event. And I think there has to just be, there's going to be different ways people deal with it. I think everyone should have all those modalities. Should, should, if you find comfort, you should do that. You know, there should be an open dialogue around that. And that's why, you know, that's why I wanted to reach out to you. Seem like a thoughtful, kind and compassionate person that, you know, when we first talked, I'm like, "Wow, pretty interesting person." This would be really fun. Again, I appreciate you having me on, I'm probably not the normal person you would have on so, taking a risk on me is means a lot to me. And again, I think the word, what I really want to get out of the message of the book, and I don't know, what I would love to say to people is I don't want you people to feel so alone. And I want you to find community where you find community and what gives you comfort. Don't, don't discount things don't, you know, say this is wrong or that is wrong? Like, I think we have to be compassionate towards each other and like, hold, hold some compassion for each other. I think that's the one thing that you know, Jesus was was pretty good at I think he like pretty much nailed that compassion.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah. Yeah.

Jarie Bolander: He really did. To his I mean, and he paid for it, right? Like, there's no doubt, right?

Twanna Henderson: Yeah. He did. Absolutely. Yeah. What a way to sum that up. What do you want men specifically to gain from reading your book?

Jarie Bolander: That it's okay to ask for help. It's okay to not know everything. I think, I always like to say that, you know, women can cry and men can get angry, but women can't get angry and men can't cry? And I think that's sort of silly. I think we're all people that have those emotions. Also know that, you know, at least for me, that those marriage vows and that commitment, that this is what it took to fulfill those.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah.

Jarie Bolander: And it's doable. I'm not perfect. I've never have been perfect. I've got flaws. You ask any one of my buddies, oh, yeah, him, you know. But I think it's just that, don't feel so alone. And when you're when you're ready to ask for help, ask for help. Don't, don't be afraid, but also those emotions you're feeling, the tension, the being lost, you know, all the things that you're like, "Gosh, why am I, why can't I solve this?" Those are all natural. Like, if you're up against a pretty substantially tough problem. What do you, what can you do? I mean, you know, just got to do the best you can and...

Twanna Henderson: Yeah.

Jarie Bolander: I would also say, you know, foster a strong community. Like have male friends. You know, whatever your community leadership, what your community needs, foster community, builds community, because one of the things that got me through it was a strong community. Really, I mean, I have friends of all, all stripes that were helping out. And I think one of the things that I get disheartened about is the, I think it's the epidemic of loneliness that we see.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah.

Jarie Bolander: That's when, when it hits the fan, that is not good for you. You need, you need a support network. And however you find that, you know, I would foster constructive support.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah, yeah. Well, I think, I think that's good advice. And I think that, you know, I think people need to know that they don't have to be alone. And I think it can be scary, you know, a lot of times going through loss, trying to navigate through grief, but they don't have to be alone. And as you said, Jesus really, he offers that, for us. He is that. You know, there are men and women who love them who are listening to this podcast, and some are thinking "Wow, I know somebody who could really benefit from a book like this." As we get ready to close, and I so enjoyed just, you know, having this, this dialogue with you. I want to just pray for those listening who need to be encouraged through loss or grief that they may be experiencing right now. Is that alright?

Jarie Bolander: Of course, Yeah.

Twanna Henderson: Lord, thank you for those listening who need to be encouraged in the midst of their loss and their grief. I pray for healing in their hearts and in their minds and in their soul and, and thank you for Jarie this transparency with his own loss and his grief. May you continue to work in his life in a supernatural way. Use this book as an avenue to draw close and others closer to you. Ride or Die. In Jesus name, amen.

Well Jarie, thank you. Thank you for opening up your life and your journey.

Jarie Bolander: It was a pleasure. It was a pleasure.

Twanna Henderson: It was so good to talk to you, and to all of our listeners, thank you for joining us today. I'm Twanna Henderson, be blessed of the Lord.