The loquacious legend talks about what it takes to be a first-call player and why he kept a banjo within arm's reach.

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Produced by Jason Shadrick and Cory Wong

Additional Editing by Shawn Persinger

Presented by Neural DSP

What's happening? Welcome to Wongnodes Podcast. This is the final episode, the bonus episode for season two. I really appreciate you guys listening.

This year we did 24 episodes. That's really fun. I started this podcast at the beginning of the year. It's been really fun to interview some of my heroes.

And you know what, if you're digging it, make sure you smash that subscribe button because next season I've also got some really great guests lined up.

Speaking of keeping things moving and an insanely prolific career, Steve Lukather. Now, if you're guitar players, you probably know about Luke. You've heard him on thousands of records. You probably know about his band Toto.

He plays with Ringo Starr in his All Star band. He was on a bunch of Michael Jackson stuff, Buzz Skaggs, Steely Dan. I mean, and honestly, it's like unfair. It's like, oh, I only mentioned those.

I didn't mention George Harrison or Eric Clapton or all these other insane artists that he's worked with. I could just go on and on talking about his accolades. Anyways, Steve Lukather.

Amazing session musician, writer, producer, bandleader, and also a fun author to read. I read his autobiography. It's really a fun read.

I had a good time reading the stories and just kind of hearing the firsthand accounts of some of his life experiences. And as he says in the interview, man, you should hear the stuff that I didn't put in the book.

I want to sit down and have a week's worth of dinners with Lukather just to hear those stories that he couldn't actually publish. But anyways, thank you all for listening to the show. I really appreciate it. Without further ado, Steve Lukather.

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I saw a funny video you playing for your gardener next door. Who?

No, it wasn't the gardener, it was the neighbor. This guy's been torturing me for like, you know, since he moved in.

He cut down 40 years of growth, cut down my oak tree, on my property, call the police on my 6 year old son, now he's almost 10 now. But you know, it was just some bullshit and you know, and then he started up with the leaf blowers at 7 o'clock in the morning.

And I said, okay, that's it. I said, and I just jokingly said to my girlfriend, I'm gonna go set up my practice, I'm Cranking up on 10. Fuck this guy. And she dared me.

I went, you dared me to do it. It's like I'm still 15 years old, go, you dared me to do it.

You gotta do it.

I did and she filmed it. I didn't realize that she put it up and it went viral and it was hilarious. And more famous for that than anything I done in my career.

So it wasn't even a triple dog dare, it was just a straight up single dare.

Oh no, we didn't get the triple dog, man. I don't have to go there, man, considering, I mean, I mean, it depends. I'm old now, you know, so I can't do really crazy shit. I don't.

Yeah. If I want you to play on my album now, I know all I have to do is dare you to do it and then you'll come play.

I really don't do that much anymore.

Well, I can't even begin to grasp how many albums, records you've played on. Whether it be rhythm guy, solo guy, producer.

Aside from just having one of the most legendary bands, Toto, you could have had just the most amazing career as a session cat.

I did for a long time. But you know, about doing both and then having a solo career and doing all these other side projects, it's got to be a bit much.

And honestly, you hit a wall with session playing. And I was told this when I first started Jay Graden told me this.

He goes, you got about 10, 11 years, man, and then it's time for you to get out and move out of the way for the next guy and move up to production or be an artist or being, you know, moving up the food chain, you know what I mean? You get to a certain point, you get in, you start out, you work your way up through the. To get to be one of, you know, one of the number one guys.

And then there's not really a whole lot of places you can go. Then they go, well, get me a younger version of you that I don't have to pay that much to.

So you get out before you fade away, you know, And I was never. I mean, I was very fortunate to have a dual career, have a band. Well, actually three. A solo career, band and a session career.

But I stopped about 25 years ago. You know, we were like the last guys that actually would show up and not know we were gonna do that there.

Who were gonna work with or what we were gonna play or. Yeah, no parcels and all that stuff. And generally create on the spot, you know, it wasn't all written down. It wasn't all written out. It was mostly.

It was just like, please fill in the blanks, you know. How many tracks did I play on that had B minor, a G, you know what I mean? Or A minor, fcg.

It's enough to take a box cutter to your neck, you know what I mean? Trying to come up with different parts on really simple material, you know what I mean? And like I said, it wasn't written out.

They kind of expected us to be self arranging our parts. And that's how you got to be popular, because you were able to do that on a dime.

Or if they didn't like it, you could change it and do something else, you know what I mean? And not fall apart under pressure once you see the red light. Playing time and tune and have a good time and a good attitude about it. I had a blast.

Some of the best times in my life. But there comes a point I started producing records. And then, you know, just being an artist took over all my time.

And it was time for me to get out of the way. Now that was when probably when Tim Pearce and Mike Thompson were hitting the scene, you know what I mean?

Mike Pendell and I grew up together since we were 12 years old. One of my best friends, one of my favorite guitar players in the world, you know, so he kind of. He's still.

He's still in it a little bit but he's got Steve Gad Band, James Taylor, his own thing. You know, we're always multitasking, us old guys.

Do you feel like your time as a session musician informed your decisions better in your solo career and your artist career with the band?

Well, in Completely Different Animals, I mean, it's a real strange muscle, and not everybody has it. That's what the second thing is. It's like, you know, they're the guys that just show up and read every little dot. And that's the TV film guys.

Completely different set of players. There's one guy that steps over the line as Dean Parks, who's the granddaddy of them. All right. Of course, you know, deepest respect to Dean.

You know, he's one of my favorite human beings, but he's also one of the very best. And Old School could read anything, play anything. Great. Incredible acoustic guitar. Incredible. You know, played the solo on Haitian Divorce.

You know, I mean, he just. His versatility is insane, you know, but there's not a lot of guys that have stayed in it and made that their whole life.

And he's one of the few guys that can do records and TV film. So he's had a very vast and very prolific career. I've learned a lot sitting next to him. And he's. He's quiet but deadly.

Yeah.

Really one of those guys you don't hear a whole lot about. But, boy, he is a master musician. And there's guys like. There are guys like that, you know, that do that.

But I was a record guy, and the record guys, you got a certain shelf life. And for me, I got the last heyday of it, you know, some proud and also very honored to be a part of that last part of that scene, you know?

Well, the reading dots thing and the creating parts thing are completely different skill sets, and they can be honed and worked on different muscle groups, I guess. But the thing about making records, sometimes when you're asked to create on the spot, there isn't necessarily a book or a method book.

There's no Mel Bay or Hal Leonard creating iconic parts.

You have to have an arranger's mind. An arranger is a guy that comes in and takes, you know, E minor C, D and. And listens to the melody and then creates around the melody.

Yeah.

With strings or horns or synths or whatever it is as a full production.

Yeah.

You have to be able to go in and hear those changes and hear a lot of counter ideas and listen to what everybody else is playing and try to find a part that's where theory and harmony, knowing all that stuff, common tones, you know, you as a funk player, man, know that. You know those funky little skank muted parts, man, I mean, that can make or break a tune.

I've got millions of those that I came up with on the spot that, you know, they just. It was just E Minor scene, like stand back, Stevie Nicks, they wanted to beat it or not beat it, Billie Jean kind of thing.

They even had David Williams, God bless his soul, the guy played that, come in and he didn't do it. And I came in and said, I know what you want. Plug this di. And by the time Jimmy Iovine walked into the room, I had done the take and it was done.

I did one take, same thing. I keep forgetting about Michael McDonald, you know, that was my part that wasn't written out.

Yeah.

You know, so I got known to be able to come up with stuff like that. And that's how I moved up the food chain as a session player. And I could do solos, one or two takes.

Because back then there was tape and they didn't have the endless amount of tracks. Yeah, usually they get to that stuff last.

So you really had to, you know, if you screwed up or like there's one note that's a little flat, yet sometimes you had to live with it, you know.

Yeah.

Because punch in and out, even the best of guys, I mean, it's risky, you know, there was. There's no, like, it was no non destructive editing. It was like. Well, you had to make commitments.

Yeah.

Like I said, that was a different kind of pressure and a different kind of thing to do. I got lucky. I got it done quickly. But, you know.

So how for you, are you able to just turn it on? Is there a switch that you turn on in your head or is it just you're always living in the thing.

You know, it's always. I've just always been able to hear music on top of music. It's just one of those things coming up with little parts and stuff for songs.

Goes back to my childhood, you know.

Yeah.

It isn't something that you can learn. It's like, how do you be funny? You know, how do you be a comedian? You don't just go, I'm a funny guy.

Or well, I can learn some jokes and tell some jokes. And then it's one thing to do, that's another thing. We stand on stage and pull it off.

If you have a rough night, you're staring out at cardboard cutouts. It's a tough room. Out here. But, you know, so I don't know, it's like you. It's not something that I even knew I had.

Sure.

Especially when you're playing with another guitar player. Like I used to play with two guitar players, a lot of either Jay Graden, Lee rittenhour, Ray Parker Jr.

Who's an unbelievably brilliant funk guitar player.

Yeah.

And you know, guys like and Dean and people like that, you know, so I learned a lot playing with them. Larry Carlton, you know, it's one of my all time idols, you know, and we were friends and we worked together a bunch, you know, over the years.

Those are my heroes. So I got to work with those guys and learn from them and learn the protocols of it all and how it all works. And it's not just about the playing.

There's a whole aspect to being a session guy. Your attitude, how you personality wise. I kind of a wise ass, you know.

We were the first guys to come in and start playing out of Marshals and I had a Les Paul and jump off the amps and make a ball out of myself. I was a teenager. I have no fear, you know what I mean?

Yeah.

Jeff Bacaro was my hero and idol and he was my, you know, he was the guy that helped me get started, you know, taught me the ropes. Him and Paige and then they were in the band. And so my affiliation with them certainly didn't hurt my career.

You Absolutely, yeah. I read your book this week leading up to this interview, which is great, by the way. A lot of stories, man. You got a lot of history.

So it's fun to hear you say.

These things out loud that didn't get mixed. Like lawsuits are like loss of friends, you know, I don't want to do either.

Yeah.

You just brought up Jeff Picaro. Being one of your mentors and somebody who's helped brought you up, and you mention it a lot in the book.

My number one, him and David Paich were probably my. Those guys were the guys. When I heard them, I went, I gotta play with these guys. These are the best musicians I've ever heard in my life.

This is unbelievable where they feel things.

The first time I sat around and jammed with Jeff Picaro, I was like 15, 16 years old, man, at the Pocaro house when we were in high school and he was a Steely Dan and we just started jamming some of this stuff. And the way he played, the way he felt, he made everybody in the room sound better.

And that's why he was so brilliant in a way that I can't put into words. You can't learn it. You can't describe it. You either have it or you don't.

It's like there's a million guitar players better than me, but I had the ability to be able to come in. I saw some amazing players just fall apart in a studio situation, having to come up with simple parts.

Yeah.

Like, there's a lot of guys today that have a facility that is staggering, you know, but at the same time, wouldn't know what to do with just a chord sheet and go, okay, we're going to start running something better. Play something.

Yeah.

And you can't just go E minor, E minor, E minor, E minor, C. I mean, you can try that and see how far that gets you. But, you know, you gotta find a part.

Yeah.

And that part has to gel with everybody else.

You have to do it fast, quick, and be able to change on a dime and be able to work with other players and morph off and know when to shut up and know when to play.

Yeah.

And that's a weird thing because you don't talk about it because you don't know what you're gonna do that day. So you have to be prepared for anything.

I mean, back in the day when I first started, used to have a banjo in my case, you know, tuned to like a guitar, just in case they needed a banjo part. I heard Tommy Tedesco used to do that.

He used to, like, tune a banjo to a guitar and just kind of use different voicings and bullshit your way through it.

Fuck, I bullshit my way through 90% of my career just because I knew and could hear common tones and find a part and groove with the rest of the rhythm section and sitting next to Jeff Picard and Chuck Rainey. And you can't go wrong. You know what I mean?

If you're halfway competent and, you know, ready for anything, you know, and you got a band like that, you know, you're just gonna sound good if you just play halfway decent shit, you know, it's weird. I can't really explain it, man, because some guys go in there and they just can't think of anything to play and they die on the spot.

It's like you're going, wow, I can't believe so and so couldn't cut it. Because you see him play live, you go, just astounding musicianship, you know?

So what do you think are the biggest things that you learned from Jeff on the musical and in the life side? Of things.

Well, he taught me a lot about life, but, you know, from a musical standpoint, Pocket time groove, that's all there is. The rest of it's all bullshit. And he was a big Hendrix guy, so he's like. He was like, stop trying to impress your guitar player buddies.

Play some fucking something with some soul, you know what I mean? Point at Jimmy's face, point at somebody else. He was really good at getting performances out of other musicians. And he knew when it was a take.

And he was a leader, not a follower. He lit up the room when he walked into it. Everybody just producers, artists, all looked at Jeff. What was that?

The take off times you go, yeah, that was the take. You guys fix your parts. I punched that shit, right?

So we just ended up going like, I need to punch him from, you know, a minute to a minute 25, because I missed Dakota, you know, whatever. So we did a lot of takes like that.

And sometimes Jeff would be so, like, he'd go, just let me and Paige cut the track and you guys overdub, because I don't want to fucking sit around and wait for you to write charts and stuff. So we never really had. Sometimes we play all together, sometimes we wouldn't, you know, there was no method to it all.

You know, it was like he was pretty much the leader of every session I was ever on. I was on literally hundreds of records with Jeff.

When it comes to working with different producers, you've worked with insane list of legendary producers, whether it be David Foster, who you mentioned several times in several different cases and varying degrees of liking or not liking working with him.

Oh, I don't have any beef with David Foster. He's just a nice bunch of guys.

I like that. I read between that one. That's awesome.

Quincy Jones, what are some of the things and principles that these iconic producers, these legendary producers are looking for that just the average producers aren't? What are they paying attention to?

Well, I think what a great, like, say, take somebody like Quincy Jones or Foster or any of the really great guys. They're great casting directors. They know the musicians.

They know if they put a combination of musicians together, A, it might be perfect, B, it might be interesting or might be some guys just here I wrote this tune and I hear so and so playing drums. I hear Jeff on drums, I hear Luke, guitar, whatever. And you know, that's always very flattering. That happens later in your career.

But no, man, these guys, they just know how to bring the best. They also have a great ear for songs and when, you know, a great producer knows when the take is the take.

A lot of guys just kind of look to Jeff or looked at anybody else.

There are a lot of armchair producers that didn't really know what they were doing that much, but they went to school with so and so, and they tripped and fell on some hit records. And they know at least that they call so and so. And to get these guys together, they're gonna make him look good.

And then there's other guys that were musician producers that were really much more effective because then the communication was on the level of a musician. So there's different styles of musicians and different styles of production.

I'm not saying it's like somebody says, well, if you don't read music, you suck. Or if you do read music, you know, whatever. It takes your soul away. All bullshit. Knowledge is power, and people have different gifts to bring.

You know, I'm not always the perfect guy to call me the first guy to say, nah, man, that you should get rid now because he studied with Christopher Parkening, if you want. I got called to play some baroque stuff on the wall by Bob Ezra way back in the day. I said, you know what, man? Bob, I'd love to say yes.

And Dave Gilmore is one of my heroes and a friend. I don't know why you need another guitar player. He goes, because it's a classical thing. I'm really not the guy. I said, rittenhouse, the guy.

He studied with Christopher Parking, and he'll give you what you want. So I was even young enough to know I'm not going to go up there and try to bullshit myself, even though I could bullshit my way through it.

Ezra's got ears big enough to know that he's looking for. So I gave him rit. And Ritt played great for him. And Jeff Bacaro taught me that. Jeff would always go, no, I'm not the right guy.

I'm going to get Keltner on the phone and get him down here. You know what I mean? And it would just be silly, but, you know, I just learned.

It's like, you do somebody a favor, you go, look, I'm really not the right guy. Let me give you the right guy. And then they was like, wow, what a cool guy. He actually turned down work to give me the right guy. There's plenty.

There used to be plenty of work for everybody. Not the case anymore.

Now everybody has to be a producer, engineer, you know, everything at your house, all set up, ready to go, and they just do it over the phone or Skype or whatever the fuck Zoom. Whatever techniques they use. And they just have it all their gear ready, set up and they're engineered.

They have everything perfectly ready to rock, you know, that's cool. And they send them the files and it's all. But there's this lack of spontaneity. Like my new solo record. I did it all. I did it in eight days.

All the solos, live, everything. I overdubbed the vocals that was. It went on the tunes that required same day song a day. Eight days. Some real jam shit.

I want to see if I could do it. And it's totally out.

And then you get these great fade outs where people jam once, you know, you got the tank and all these great things like from the old records that we all grew up with, they go, where's the long great fades where the jams happen. People start playing different licks. And so I got to keep some of that shit, you know, Just old school, you know.

Let's face it, you make records these days of vanity record from people that like what I do. And it was a way for me to get off and not. Nobody's waiting for my new single with Cardi B. You know what I mean?

I Am Toto featuring Cardi B would just be a smash hit, probably.

It's not like we couldn't do it, but it would have to be the right song, you know. Yeah, we don't really think in terms like that anymore. We're definitely a 70s band from old school, you know what I mean?

Started session guys and we hit the same time as the Sex Pistols. And for some reason they would compare us, which is like, you know, comparing. Comparing. Like comparing garlic to chocolate. Yeah.

I mean, it's like what? Both are valid in their own situations, but to be compared is ridiculous, you know. So the critic, the critics went left on us.

Of course we had a shitty band name. That didn't help, you know, here we are, 43, 40, almost 44 years later and this thing won't die. 15 incarnations and I'm still flogging it.

And I just put together a new band and I love doing this stuff, you know. It's been good to me. You can make fun of it all you want, but it's been real good to me and my boys. And I get to play with some incredible new.

You know, some new guys joined up. Spud from snarky puppy and Dr. Dre, who also rocks his ass off. Nobody knows X from Prince's band. You know, John Pierce from Huey Lewis Band.

My first friend in the world. Our parents were pregnant together. She's a session guy, too. We did a lot of sessions together when we were young.

Played in high school together with Mike Landau, you know.

Is that Blueberry Waterfall Days? Is that what we're talking?

No, that was way. Wow, you're really going back. No, that was when I was 11.

I told you, I read the book.

No, I was 11 when that was going on. No, those were fun days, too.

I mean, you know, living these little kids, we were very freakish because at the time, there weren't little kid bands like there is now. So we were very freakish at the time. And it was fun. It was a fun time. Really made me want to do it, you know, The Beatles made me want to do it.

They still play. They're my gold standard. This is all I've ever done my whole life. I don't know how to do anything else. I was terrible at sports.

I was shy, I was very small. Got bullied, picked on. So the guitar became my little shield. Then I got to be a wise ass when I got older, more confident as a human being.

Well, you said There was about 15 iterations of the band. And I have a question, because in the book, you talk a lot about it, trying to find a different lead singer.

You guys are a band that has had multiple lead singers, even when there is an actual lead singer. But also, certain songs have a few singers.

Can you talk to me about how to function as a band when you have personnel changes and the journey of figuring out.

Well, I think bands our age, I mean, it's almost unavoidable. People, you know, get sick, People retire, people die. You know what I mean?

And if the surviving members want to carry on, I mean, look at all the band. Look at Queen. Look at Journey's got a new rhythm section now. Now you got sticks. Not the same band.

I mean, a lot of bands from our era have new members or people have left or retired from the situation, or they got into a legal battle and ate each other's guts. Whatever the, you know, Super Tramp. I mean, you can go down the list of all the. Yes.

I mean, there's, you know, there's all these bands if you want to keep the music alive. It's more than just one guy. I mean, I'm the constant. Because I've always believed in the band since Jeff and Dave hired me.

And, you know, now that Dave is, you know, medically retired and Jeff is no longer with us, and Mike's no longer with us, and I've had to bring in some other cats, but we gave it a year off and Joseph and I made solo records. And we said, well, we're gonna go out together. And our agents go, just use the name Toto. Play some of the music and play some of your solo stuff.

And we decided to do that and we put a live stream that was on last night, actually, to show off the band with all the new cats. And I played a lot of Toto stuff because I wanted to prove we could. So all the naysayers would come and realize that, yeah, there's been a lot of.

And everybody complains whenever there's one change, you know, I mean, people freaked out when Simon joined after Jeff, you know, and then even Mike got als. We had Lee Sklar, we had Nathan east, we had David Hungate came back, our original guy.

We had some other cats, you know, I mean, you know, filling in the shit. If you listen and look at it and forget who it is. There have been a lot of incarnations and one. Give this one a shot.

Give me a month on the road with these guys and look out. Because they're fantastic players and they're younger guys that I can afford. So you get the point. This lawsuit really hurt us and cost us a fortune.

They said, use the name, make your money back. We've been paid for it. What's the point of even fighting it if you weren't gonna use it, you know? So we decided, you know what?

Abuse is all we missed. Joe and I were the only ones that wanted to work, so that's all there was gonna be anyway.

Should I never play again? Should I just stop and. You know, the name is worth something when we use it.

When we don't use it, it's not worth anything because a lot of other people own that name for other aspects of life.

Well, you also mentioned the Beatles being the gold standard of a band and that being a band that has had quite an insane journey.

And then the members themselves having their individual things and seeing you playing with Ringo, Paul, George, being great friends with Ringo and all of that. That must be insane.

Yes. It's beyond, man. It's the weirdest thing in the world. At the same time, I never could have called it a million years.

I would have said I'd be the first guy in Venus. Yeah, I mean, I mean, but it just sort of happened by accident later in life.

Ringo is a dear friend of mine, but he's still Ringo, you know, I mean, he's still. There's still a reverence that I have. Even though we've worked together for almost nine years now, we have become very good friends.

He brought me my birthday cake at my house as a surprise.

Who would have said that when the reason why I place was seeing them on the Ed Sullivan show when I was single digits, you know, I mean, I pinch myself too. I mean, I don't take any of this for granted. I don't have a smug attitude about this.

It still kicks me when I get a FaceTime message from Ringo or something. You know, it's like, hey, man, what's going on, boss? It's a trip, man. You know what I mean? Pinch me, pinch me.

When I got to do the Beatles 50th anniversary from the Ed Sullivan performance and I was in the band, the house band with an all star band, me and Peter Frampton on guitar, blah blah blah, Kenny Romney from Foo Fighters and Lenny Castro and Drake filling gains. And it was just. It was a trip. It was, it was and it was good. But the reality of seeing Hard Day's Night, how many times I watched that movie made.

My grandmother would take me to the movies, just drop me off so I could watch Hard Day's night for the 50th and to real and to see that footage and stand next to Paul and Ringo and just realize I'm standing there. How does this possible? I mean, what are the mathematical odds? They're astronomical, infinitesimal.

Seven billion people on the planet, me, don't think I don't realize that. You know what I mean? How great, how lucky I am and how grateful I am. And like I said, there's a million guys better than me.

But, you know, I can be 50 guitar players at one time. That's why All Star Band works good for me, because I can be any guitar player they want me to be. I get a kick out of, you know, playing the parts.

Right.

Absolutely.

You know, and doing, making, trying to get the right sound or doing an homage to Carlos Santana or something, you know what I mean? You know? Cause I have a lot of respect for everybody that came before, you know, and even the young cats that are kicking my ass.

Jesus, there's so many incredible young players that are just stupid.

What are some of the. Your contemporaries? What are some of these younger players that you're digging right now?

Well, the kid Tosin is just off. You know, he's another alien guy. You know, there's. There's like Jeff Coleman, there's people like Greg Koch.

I mean, I'm a fan of the young and the new, you know what I mean? There's all. There's some impressive young players out there that just keep. Make me smile, you know. Joe Bonamassa, what a brilliant play.

He's not really young anymore, but I remember seeing him when he was young.

He's a dear friend, certainly one of the best we got out there that, you know, that's like, you know, say, 40 and under, you know, the guys my age are my age or the guys that before us were our heroes are still our heroes. You know, in many cases, they're friends now. But, you know, I'm still a big fan. You know, I still stand on the edges.

You know, Eddie and I were dear friends, and that just crushed me, you know, the fact that he's gone, you know, just. We're friends for over 40 years.

What was the first time you worked with Eddie?

Worked with him? Oh, geez, I don't even remember that. First time we hung out was in the 70s. I borrowed an amp from him for an Elton John session.

And, you know, we just hit it off and we neighbors. We've been neighbors our whole lives. And our kids grew up and together and we went through the good, bad and the ugly together. And it killed me.

Absolutely crushed me on levels that were different than just always the greatest rock and roll guitar player ever, whatever. As a fan or even as a guy that had a beer with him once. I mean.

I mean, we shared life together, so it was a kick in the ass for me, you know, and my last text was like, he sent me a heart, man. It's like, yeah, talking about busting me up, you know, but I'm 63. He was 65. I mean, my dad was the same age as me when he got cancer. And cyanide.

Hold on, is that a landline ringing in the background?

No, that's. That's my cell phone with a landline. Oh, okay.

I was gonna say, that is old school, man. You got a paper calendar behind you and you got a landline ringing. I like this.

No, it's not paper. It's. It's one that races and stuff. No, it's like. No, this is.

Listen, I manage the band, too, so I also have to, like, you know, keep up on two years ahead of time, you know. But this year, this year off was unexpected, of course, for all of us.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

I know exactly what you mean.

We were supposed to be on the road playing stuff, but I made the most of it by creating new music and putting a new band together and doing a whole lot of other shit.

Well, jumping back into the session thing, you've seen such a wide array of how session players have gotten work, how guitar players in the guitar realm. From a guitar player standpoint, somebody who's wanting to get going in the session world now, what do you suggest to people? How do you.

How do you get people started?

Geez, I know what to tell you. You got. There is no session scene, per se. People make records at home.

People don't have the money to spend, so they may say they'll do it all themselves, but hire a guitar player or a sax player or maybe a drummer or something like that. And most like, drummers and guitar players, they're all set up at home. Especially with the Virus.

Yeah.

If you want to continue on, you know, this sort of communication on Zoom with you, all three of you guys, is kind of just the way we communicate. And if you want to play, you're expected to have gear at home to do that. I always believe the separation of home and work.

Myself, because I have kids and everything like that. I didn't want to. I have had a studio in my house or work something to work with, and there's always somebody around fixing something.

It's like I just didn't want to deal with it anymore. I'm not a real super techy guy. I speak the language. I know how, you know, I know how it all works.

And I could sit down and mix a record, but I feel that there are better guys to do. I just know how to speak to them in their language.

But I don't have a studio in my house, you know, but you really kind of need to have a studio in your house. You need to be ready for anything and set up, and you have to.

And price is also not like the old days where I get double scale, triple scale, or Whatever. And it was. Now you negotiate because you have to be the engineer, the art, you know, the, you know, the arranger, player and producer.

Produce your own parts or whatever.

Yeah.

A lot of times they go, well, send me a couple solos and we'll pick one or something like that.

I go, that's when everything gets weird, when you, when you turn it all over to somebody else and then they have the control of Frankensteining it together maybe in some ways that are impossible to play. What makes it sound obviously punched and the people think that's you. I don't know.

Like I said, it's one thing, you know, somebody send it and you send back two tracks or whatever it is, you know, These two I've accepted. So at least no matter what happens, I had some say, you know what I mean?

But to send somebody rough, like four tracks or something like that and expect them to put it together in some way that makes sense is risky. Unless they're musicians and know the instruments. Yeah, it's like when I studied orchestration, I learned the ranges of instruments and stuff.

And I learned you can only ride for flute to this high. Till it turns into an alto. Till it turns into a, you know, a tenor and all the rest of it.

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Well, we talked about working with different producers and what they're looking for in things. Now I want to shift and think about artists you've worked for. Aretha, Elton, Ringo, Paul, George, Clapton, Jackson, Brown, Cherry.

The list, obviously we've said is Michael Jackson. It's fricking endless. But all these iconic artists, is there something, is there a vision they have? Is there something objectively?

Usually like, Michael knew what he wanted, but at the same time he was open to other suggestions. When he started grooving, that's when you knew him and Quincy would start grooving their heads with Bob.

That's when you knew you were Playing something good. But, I mean, everybody has their own style. And that's the weird part.

I have the way I do things, and I have to be able to morph into whatever is necessary in the room. Back when I did that. Now guys have the luxury of being able to try a million different things on their own before they even show it to anybody.

Before you show up. And you had to be great on the spot.

Yeah.

So this gives you a little more time. But also you get a lot more interesting things.

Because guys enter under pressure, and they can do weird parts and do single parts and all the stuff that you can't create on the spot to make a performance right on the spot. You can layer things now and send it as one part and do it like. Tim Pierce is really good at doing stuff like that.

I know all the guys, and I love them all, but I don't know who is doing it every day anymore. And I don't even know if there's enough work. Just call yourself. Right. Session player on a tax return anymore.

I'm saying, as far as an artists go, there's certain artists that are iconic, timeless, legendary, whatever kind of label you want to call them. Is there something you've noticed from working with all these types of artists that they have in common?

Yeah, most of them don't know what they want you to play, so they expect you to enhance. I mean, Foster was pretty. He was great at being specific about what he wanted. You know, they're like musician types, for the most part.

Would know a lot of stuff. Just felt right. A lot of stuff. I was just warming up, playing, and they kept the whole thing. I'm like, what? You know, okay, I guess I'm done now.

But I mean, that was the way back, you know? But you had to be ready.

Like, you know, like with Aretha, like, she'd sit up and play piano in the middle of the room while we were all set up playing live.

And it was a great band, like Jeff Bacaro, Marcus Miller, David Paich, you know, Lenny Castro, me and David William and Aretha sitting in like, Jeff Picaro playing drums, Marcus Miller on bass. And then they just, you know, we'd be doing a track for her, and when she got her lead vocal, that was the take.

Yeah.

So you better be playing. Cause there was leakage into everything.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

Every take needs to be good.

And she was so good. The thing was, she was so amazing, and we were so close to her. You're sitting there playing, and she'd Sing something.

You'd look up from her chart like, wow. And then look down going, where the fuck am I? You know? And you realize if you scream, screwed this up.

Reeve Martin was the producer and he was wonderful. You know, getting a chance to work with people that made the real, truly legendary records is really, really great.

I have a question. Other than Toto, what are like 3 to 5 of the top guitar solos of yours that you've played on that everyone needs to hear? Like the full on.

Like, here's the. Luke, here's the top three, five solos.

I don't know, man. You know, some of it was funny shit. Like, I played the solo on let's Get Physical. I did Running with the Nolivia Newton John tune. Yeah.

I did Run with Unite that Running with the Night for Lionel, and that was a run through. I thought I was just taking around. They kept the whole thing. I didn't even know they were rolling the tape.

I heard that they. That's one though, that where they cut the guitar solo from the radio edit, didn't they?

They see that all the time, man.

That's not fair.

Although they did it on hold the Line, man. I remember when that came out and like listening to the car, here it comes, it's like. Goes right to the fade.

I'm like, motherfuckers, cut out my solo. What the fuck?

And then it got worse when it went through the super adult contemporary stage where they wouldn't like no distorted guitars or guitar solos.

And I don't know, man, that was a weird period in like the late 70s, early 80s or something like that where they just went, I don't know, Top 40 radio wouldn't play anything with, you know, buzz, you know, distorted guitars.

Yeah, well, and also when I talk to the generation before me and the generation before that, they talk about all these radio hits and all of them had. Not all of them, but many of them had guitar solos. Now you just barely hear any guitar solos and.

And technical proficiency on an instrument in general in some ways is kind of taboo. It's almost, you know, not always been.

That's why all those critics, they hate anybody with major facility.

If you look at their top 100 and you realize who's on, who's not, it kind of tells you that most of these guys are frustrated guitar players and only like guys they can play. Like if anybody that has chops over their head, they hate.

Why is that? Is that just ego?

Because most of them are failed musicians. Nobody goes to reviewer school, A and R school.

Look at there's gunning right now. Lucifer's gun in.

I'm telling you the truth. Most of them are, you know, and then they. I'm not talking about everybody generalizing everybody. But that's not the case.

There's a lot of really valuable, credible critics, you know, that actually know what they're talking about.

They could critique of all these Four Seasons or something because they, you know, as opposed to, like, you know, I just think punk music, because that's the only thing that matters. Everything else sucks, which is fine, if that's how you feel. But I mean, you know, you can't compare music. It's like.

It's like, who has the best looking wife, who has the best. Who makes the best food, who has the best painting, who's the best writer? I mean, you know, it's. These are impossible things.

You know, at least with sports, you know, if you hit so many home runs or make so many goals or whatever, you know, okay, you're in the hall of fame. But that doesn't work that way with our one man shit. Man's chocolate. You know, it's like. It's just. That's the way it is.

Where it's always been and it's always been. There's always been. I love the bit in the movie Mozart when he goes, there's too many notes. Don't you like, you know, stuff like that? Yeah, I get it.

You know, it's. You know, I don't like everything, and nobody likes everything, and that's why there's so much great stuff to choose from.

Yeah.

I'm not Brick saying anything. I. There's a lot of stuff I've done that I wince at, you know?

Yeah.

But at the same time, you know, there's a lot of options out there, man. A lot of people do some great stuff, so there's lots of positive stuff out there. I'm not gonna be negative about it.

Sure.

Amazing permutations of old and new music, which I'm really excited about. You know, there's some good people out there, but my son is younger, and he's a musician. He turns me into all this stuff. There's just.

The problem is there's so much stuff.

Yeah.

How do you keep up with? I mean, especially you guys in a magazine that, like, you. You get chummed for, like, you know, here, listen to this cd.

Or here, listen to this blue line to the point ad nauseam. You want to just take a box cutter and go, I hate music like this. You know what I Mean, no matter how good it is, it just.

A lot of people use the same plugin. So there's a lot of sameness in the sound of things. That wears you out about the 5K.

That guitar and snare sound that everybody uses starts just great on your ears. I don't care who you are, you listen to 100 songs, you're going to go, how do I know which is a good song? How do I know anymore?

Yeah, but I think that's one of the things about artists now is that we have to find something unique about ourselves. Something unique that we bring to the table.

Well, that's what it is. I mean, because now we live in a world where there's a seven year old Japanese girl that has the fastest technique you've ever seen in your life.

Yeah.

So there's that extreme and then there's the guys who can play acoustic guitar insanely with all these weird tunings and one man band shit. And those guys like James Taylor can sit down and play you a song and sing you a song.

Don't need a Barati Crowell or people like that, you know, they can, they're storytellers, you know, Nelson or somebody wonderful like that. Bob Dylan. But a lot of people aren't like that. They need a band and they need a way to propel themselves, you know.

Well, if there's anybody who might have a little bit of clout to answer this question, it's probably you because you've seen the evolution of the instrument over decades. Where do you see the guitar going in the next 15 years, judging by the words?

You know, people are taking it to like levels that I couldn't even imagine with tunings. And the ability to the acoustic thing has really blown up into another level.

Yeah, John Gom was like, you know, he's taking the tuning things while he's got perfect pitch or whatever. It's like just go, God, I'm glad I'm not like 20 years old trying to break into the music business. Fucking hell.

I'm really glad to be an old guy, you know what I mean? It's like, yeah.

Trying to prove yourself in this arena now requires not only extreme focus and dedication and practice, but you gotta have a whacked out brain. Sure. And you definitely have no friends or a girlfriend or nothing like that because you're spending all your time shedding, you know.

Yeah.

Well, many of the people that listen to this podcast are professional musicians and.

They all know what I'm talking about.

Yes.

One thing that I'm Curious on your end. You're now the manager of Toto. You've come across.

We went through all the big fabulous managers. They kept screwing up. And I like, I've been managing myself for I don't know, 25 years. Outside of the band, I never lost money, ever screwed.

I go, give me six months if I screw this up.

After we went through three big time guys that messed it up for us financially and yeah, and there's a lot of poor decisions made or not made at all and lied to saying they were. And I found a lot of things that were messed up. It was really hard to inherit all this crap and try to get through it.

I was blamed for things I didn't do. It got really silly actually in a bad way. But it's a real hard this way at least.

You know, I don't know how people can manage 20 bands at the same time and be effective at all. Just doing one, taking care of one effectively is a full time job.

Yeah, these guys have a big name and they send out interns that they pay nothing to to screw things up or they show up when everything's going great and take the credit for it.

When you realize they're on the golf course most of the time sucking money from you and you're going like you're paying these guys a ridiculous sum of money. You go, what am I getting for my money? Yeah, like if you're a new artist, you're breaking a new artist. They're a young teenager manager.

For me, classic rock band booking tours. You got great agent, a great accountant and a great staff and a great PR team and that's all you need.

Why are you paying an extra 15 to 20% something I take a teeny little extra percentage just for the hard work of putting together the tour, which is as budgets and craziness and musicians in our case.

And dealing with all the years when I used to be crazy and drink and go out, I used to go out with all the promoters and the agents and the record company people and they've all moved up the food chain. Sorry, that's my ridiculous phone. And they moved up the food chain and I took over and I already had relationships with people. It really helped me.

So even when I was being an idiot, drinking too much, I mean I like, I made friends with these guys and we all kind of grew up and don't do that anymore, but we grew up. Now as the president of this or the head of this. Yeah, I get these guys on the phone when, hey, it's Luke.

Instead of like, you know, it's impossible to get the so and so and so and so. It's because I got 45 years in and I made friends and kept them over the years. Respect, people.

Yeah.

My question is more along the lines of, for musicians coming up, how to manage their finances in the best way possible. Do you have any insight?

Well, first off, don't believe that, you know, if you have a hit record and you get a dump truck of money the first couple of times, it's going to keep coming every time. Because it doesn't. It's like you ask yourself, why does a football player get $350 million? Because A, he's got a short window of a career.

B, if he gets injured, he's fucked for life. But he had a talent. You know what I mean? That's. And these guys are like, you know, then they buy everybody a Ferrari and they don't pay their taxes.

Wonder why they don't have any money.

To close out. What's a fun little thing? Because guitar players want to know about gear. We haven't really touched on gear. Right.

I'm kind of one way or the other about it. One piece of gear that every guitar player needs. That's about 20 bucks or less.

20 bucks or less. You need new strings on your guitar.

There we go. I like that. All right. What's one thing, couple hundred bucks or less that every guitar player needs?

You're going to get a lot of different answers on this one. If you like, say, a funk player like you, I would imagine it would be a compressor.

Absolutely.

You know what I mean? Or if you were a country guy. Yeah, that and a delay unit. For me, I like to have a little delay.

I'm like the Dave Gilmore, Joe Walsh guy, where I like to have a little. But other people. You're going to hear a fuzz or some sort of distortion unit. I mostly amp distortion.

You know, I have a couple little boxes if I want to go to DEFCON 5. You know, the fact of the matter is how creative you are with whatever piece of gear you are. I mean, look at the edge.

The guy starts out with a little teeny little echo box and creates a hole, magical style around it. You know what I mean? Sometimes guys come up with stuff with gear they have. That's all they got. And they create something new.

Yeah.

Because they've misused the gear and didn't really know what they were doing. And greatness comes up.

Yeah.

The worst thing you could have done to guys like Eddie Van Halen or Jeff Beck is giving proper guitar lessons would have fucked them all up. Yeah.

All right, last one. No price limit at all. What's a piece of gear? A specific piece of gear that everybody should own?

Well, obviously the instrument itself, the fine, you know, the finer the instrument you have, the easier it is to play. I mean, the old Larry Carlton story told me somebody said, wow, Larry, that 335 sounds amazing. He says, really?

And he goes and puts it in the stand and he comes, walk back, it's all silent. He goes, how about now? I thought, well, that pretty much says it all from my sensei, you know, I like that.

That's the one liner. Well, Luke, thanks so much for joining us, man.

Thanks for laughing and trying not to laugh when I was saying stupid shit. That was pretty good. I watched it the whole time. Car, you've been a groove. You're a badass motherfucker. Keep the funk alive.

Thanks, man. I appreciate it.

Thank you for your kindness. I mean, I'm just a dumb ass old guitar player, man, you know, trying to make a living. Bless you all. Okay, thanks a lot.

We'll talk soon, man. Peace. That's it. Long Notes podcast season two done in the bag. Thank you, Steve Lukather, for coming to hang out with us. And you know what?

I got fun stuff coming. I'm super stoked about my most ambitious project yet. So thank you guys for listening.

If you haven't subscribed, smash that subscribe button because then you're gonna know every time I put out a new interview episode thing. So we'll see you next season. Peace.