Shownotes
Before I begin, I notice that Chancellor Jarnathan is not present...?
I'm back from an extended break, deciding to do an episode on Dungeons & Dragons, and its fifty-year history and legacy as the most popular TTRPG in the world.
Easing myself back into podcasting slowly, then, because it's safe to say nothing has impacted geek culture like Dungeons & Dragons, since its debut in 1974. It evolved from its early iterations to mainstream popularity, especially with the rise of its fifth edition. It wasn't without its controversies, though. Its associations with the 'Satanic Panic' significantly affected its public perception in the 1980s, and led to Evangelical Christian groups linking it with suicides.
This isn't the first time Dungeons & Dragons has been adapted to the screen either, with the popular 1983-1985 animated series, and the not-so-popular movie in 2000, Dungeons & Dragons: Honor Among Thieves started its earliest conception in 2013, and had plenty of delays along the way.
Despite ongoing rights issues and a global pandemic, Dungeons & Dragons: Honor Among Thieves remarkably manages to honour D&D's legacy and lore, while ensuring authenticity for fans, and accessibility for non-fans and casual moviegoers alike.
Despite its critical success, Dungeons & Dragons: Honor Among Thieves faced challenges at the box office, mostly due to some Italian plumbers, but also a fan backlash against owners Hasbro and Wizards of the Coast. This movie deserves to find an audience, and hopefully it will, once Jarnathan arrives...
Interested in finding out more about D&D or listening to others' campaigns? Here's some great indie D&D podcasts:
- Time to Die - https://timetodie.podbean.com/
- Join The Party - https://www.jointhepartypod.com/
- Dungeons & Dragons & Daughters - https://dungeonsdragonsdaughters.podbean.com/
- Do Dragons Dream of Scorched Sheep? - https://shows.acast.com/scorchedsheep
I would love to hear your thoughts on Dungeons & Dragons: Honor Among Thieves !
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Transcripts
Hi, everyone. I'm Em, and welcome to verbal diorama, episode 278, Dungeons & Dragons, Honor Among Thieves.
This is the podcast that's all about the history and legacy of movies you know and movies you don't. That does very much traffic in colloquialisms. As always, welcome to Verbal Diorama.
Whether you are a brand new listener to this podcast, whether you're just a massive fan of Dungeons and Dragons, or whether you are a regular returning listener, thank you for being here. Thank you for choosing to listen to this podcast.
I am so happy to be back, first and foremost, but also so happy to have you here for the history and legacy of Dungeons and Dragons, Honor Among Thieves. So where have I been?
Well, you'll notice that the podcast has recently released some from the archive episodes which were some slightly older, maybe three, four year old episodes that obviously came out a long time ago, and maybe people haven't listened. And so I thought, I'm taking a break in November, so I'll just do a month of those episodes. And I ended up taking a bit of an extended break.
I had a couple of weeks off, and then the other couple of weeks is actually now as I'm recording this episode. I'm currently recording this in mid November to be released in early December, and I've never had that privilege before.
What that means is instead of working a week in advance, I'm now working three weeks in advance, and that means I will have a buffer of episodes. So if I am sick or busy. It's no crisis.
But as always, I am so grateful to everyone who has continued to listen to and support this podcast, especially over the kind of very brief hiatus that I've taken. I've been doing this podcast for almost six years now, and obviously this is episode 278.
It means so much that people still support this podcast and we are firmly getting into the festive season. Obviously, I'm recording this in November, but I'm going to pretend it's December and say that this month is Christmas season.
And while you might think Dungeons and Dragons isn't particularly festive, I disagree because pine is a very Christmassy scent. And this movie is one that I've wanted to cover on the podcast for a very long time. I saw this movie in the cinema twice.
I enjoyed it so much, I also own it on Blu Ray. I've watched it at home on Blu Ray a couple of times. And just like Holger, I never want to be disturbed when eating my potatoes.
Here is the trailer for Dungeons and Honor Among Thieves.
Speaker B:Having spent two long years in a dark and dank prison cell after a botched attempt to get his hands on a magical artifact to resurrect his dead wife Lute, playing bard turned thief Edgin Darvis, hatches a plan to escape.
Despite being granted his pardon, the once respected former member of the noble Harpers and his fierce barbarian companion, Holger Kilgore, set out to reunite with his daughter Keira, now living with his former accomplice Forge, who has poisoned Keira's mind against her father. Edgin and Holgar assemble a motley crew of old and new friends to not only rescue Kira, but also rob Forge's vault.
But Forge has resurrected the previously banned Hoisen games and the group are captured and forced to take part. Let's, as always, run through the cast of this movie.
We have Chris Pine as Edgin Davis, Michelle Rodriguez as Holger Kilgore, Reggae, Jean Page as Xenk Yendar, Justice Smith as Simon Omar, Sophia Lillis as Doric, Hugh Grant as Forge Fitzwilliam, Chloe Coleman as Keira Davis, Daisy Head as Sophina, Jason Wong as Dralus and Bradley Cooper as Marlamin Dungeons and Dragons Honor Among Thieves have a screenplay by Jonathan Goldstein, John Francis Daly and Michael Giglio, a story by Chris McKay and Michael Giglio, and was directed by Jonathan Goldstein and John Francis Daly, based on Dungeons and Dragons by Hasbro. So going through the consonant history of Dungeons and Dragons from a non player perspective isn't particularly easy.
However, let me tell you that as a non player, I have absolutely loved researching this episode. I will tell you if you're here to hear 50 years worth of game lore, you're probably in the wrong place.
However, if you are interested, I'm going to be listing some great indie D and D podcasts a bit later on in this episode that you can listen to. If you are interested in all of that or game mechanics or maybe even joining a game, please have a listen to those.
But I'm going to go through as concise a summary on Dungeons and Dragons over the last 50 years as I possibly can. So Dungeons and Dragons, or DND as it's most commonly known, was created and designed by Gary Gygacatz and Dave Arneson.
First published in: e three booklets published in:Dungeons and Dragons Basic Set and Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, that is an introductory game and a more complex version for experienced players respectively.
The basic version would direct players who'd essentially finished that version to the more advanced version, but as a result of this parallel development, the Basic game includes many rules and concepts which contradicted comparable ones in a D and D, and while the Basic was seen as light and fun, Advanced was more strict and structured and new rules continued to be published into the 80s.
In: In September: In: versary in the second half of:DND was no longer a game for geeks to play in their basements, it was going mainstream.
ecause of a villain from DnD.: % in: In: . Virtual play in:2024 is the 50th anniversary of Dungeons and Dragons, Hasbro's acquisition of the D and D Beyond Digital toolset and game companions, showing that Hasbro are investing in the digital future of DND due to the slowdown of physical media sales and also wanting to unlock the sort of profit you only tend to see in huge video game releases.
For many players, this is a physical media game you play in person with a group of friends and obviously Hasbro are going to prioritize profits and this is going to come back into the story a little bit later. Things haven't always been plain sailing for the game though.
d from his University dorm in:Egbert's parents hired William Deer, a private investigator, to locate their son. Despite his apparent lack of knowledge about role playing games, DIA thought that Egbert's disappearance was due to dnd.
In actuality, Egbert had gone into hiding in the utility tunnels beneath Michigan State University during a period of cell palm and suffered from depression and drug addiction, among other issues.
ok Mazes and monsters and the: d by Dungeons and Dragons. In:His mother, Patricia Pulling, believed her son's suicide was caused by him playing DD and sued tsr.
ngeons and Dragons or Badd in:It was linked to the Satanic Panic with DND named as a satanic cult recruitment tool alongside heavy metal, music, TV and even childcare centers and educators. DND was linked to 28 murders and suicides. In response, Gary Gygax said, quote, this is make believe. No one is martyred. There's no violence there.
To use an analogy with another game, who is bankrupted by a game of Monopoly. Nobody is. The money isn't real.
There is no link, except perhaps in the mind of those people who are looking desperately for any other cause than their own failures. As a parent, as I mentioned, I have never played D and D. I've always wanted to, but I never have.
So if anyone wants to set up a game with me, let me know. The only Dungeons and Dragons I have experience in is the animated show from the 80s which was always on TV as a kid.
It was co produced by Marvel Productions who created a lot of animated shows in the 80s like GI Joe, the Transformers and Spider Man.
It aired on CBS from:The script was published online and would have confirmed that Evil Venger was the Dungeon Master's son, giving Venger his redemption and giving the six children the opportunity to finally leave the realm, ultimately ending on a cliffhanger that a planned fourth season could resolve.
The series was controversial for its violence and thanks to Dungeons and Dragons real life controversies, the FTC ended up airing warnings during each broadcast.
Of course, Dungeons and Honor Among Thieves famously features adult versions of Hank, Bobby, Sheila, Diana, Eric and Presto in live action cameos with Edgar Abram as Hank, Luke Bennett as Bobby, Emma McDade as Sheila, Mose, Sir Segbon as Diana, Trevor Kaniswaran as eric, and Seamus O'Hara as presto. That's a lovely little nod to the animated series. I squeed when I saw them in the movie.
his one. Dungeons and Dragons:TSR had been previously hesitant to license the game for a feature film due to most Hollywood types having little understanding of the law.
initially contacting them in:They struggled to get interest though, despite initial interest from James Cameron and not even Joel Silver himself could fix the project.
When he joined in April: shot a scene in LA in August:The original $100 million budget was slashed down to $45 million, and despite the low cost of filming in Prague and a huge fan base, fantasy movies just weren't box office draws in the post Matrix era of cinema, and it was a financial and critical failure. Sullivan blamed the film's quality on the meddling of its investors and license holders, in addition to his own lack of filmmaking experience.
He claims that after almost 10 years of difficulties dealing with TSR and Wizards of the coast, his investors compelled him to direct the movie even though his original plan was only to produce it.
Additionally, he said that even though he had written an updated script that better complied with the Dungeons and Dragons license, he was still compelled to use an older version.
We are going to be coming back to Courtney Solomon and Sweet Pea Entertainment though, because it is relevant to the story going forward and Courtney Solomon is not the only person who loves D and D enough to wait many years to make a movie.
A made for TV sequel to: May: May: on of Wizards of the coast in: , the creator of the previous: back down either until August: s and Dragons movie. In March:But you're probably wondering, well, this isn't the movie that we got. We didn't get a Warner Brothers movie, and it certainly wasn't directed by Rob Letterman.
Well, this is where things start to get even more complicated. So we fast forward a few years and the project has stalled. It's going nowhere.
and D fan, announced in April:He had discussions with Brad Payton and Dwayne Johnson about making his Dungeons and Dragons film, with Johnson potentially starring alongside Anson Elgort. Now, I don't need to tell you that this also didn't happen for Joe Mangianello.
In December:Hasbro had basically moved the film over to a different studio, along with a deal for other Hasbro properties to also be made into films with Paramount.
By February:Giglio's script satisfied Paramount so much, they started looking for actors for the male lead, which included big names like Will Smith, Johnny Depp, Chris Pratt, Jamie Foxx, and Vin Diesel, among others.
Also in February:I highly recommend that movie. It is Great. It is very funny.
Goldstein and Daly would make this the year after writing Homecoming, so they were turning into a team of writers directors to watch. It's worth adding that they did writing work on Game Night, but it was uncredited.
In early: This left them free in July: And in January:During writing and production, Goldstein and Daly had the involvement of Wizards of the coast with representatives Nathan Stewart, the head of franchise and VP of global brand marketing and strategy, and Jeremy Crawford, principal designer for dnd.
The idea was ultimately to take influence from classic movies like the Princess Bride, Monty Python and the Holy Grail, the Lord of the Rings and Indiana Jones, and to make the film as accessible to those unfamiliar with the fantasy genre as well as those unfamiliar with Dungeons and Dragons.
by Ed Greenwood originally in:It's one of the most popular settings, has numerous video games set there, including the Baldur's Gate series when Wizards of the coast took over dnd. Campaigns were trimmed from six to two, and the two that were kept included Forgotten Realms.
It's described on the Wiki as, quote, a fantasy world setting described as a world of strange lands, dangerous creatures and mighty deities, where magic and supernatural phenomena are quite real. The premise is that long ago planet Earth and the world of the Forgotten Realms were more closely connected.
As time passed, the inhabitants of Earth had mostly forgotten about the existence of the other world, hence the name Forgotten Realms, unquote. And John Francis Daly's love for D and D goes all the way back to his Freaks and Geeks days when he was 14.
And if you don't know Freaks and Geeks, go and watch Freaks and Geeks.
It's basically a who's who of Hollywood comedians and big name actors, from Daly himself as geeky little brother Sam Weir, to his on screen big sister Linda Cardellini, alongside James Franco, Seth Rogen, Jason Siegel and Busy Phillips. Created by Paul Feig. Guest stars included Rashida Jones, David Krumholtz, Leslie Mann, Ben Stiller and Jason Schwartzman.
canceled after one season in: to our story so we are now in: th November:The pandemic not only impacted filming, but also location scouting and possible restructuring of the movie to avoid large crowd scenes.
And if this movie feels like it's at home with an action packed MCU style teapot movie like the Avengers or Guardians of the Galaxy, that's not a huge surprise considering the producer of Honor Among Thieves is Jeremy Latcham, who previously worked at Marvel Studios as Senior Vice President of Production and development.
He was executive producer on the Avengers and Guardians of the Galaxy as well as associate producer on Iron man, co producer on Iron Man 2, executive producer on Homecoming alongside directors of this movie, Jonathan Goldstein and John Francis Daly, who wrote Homecoming.
Latcham joined Marvel in: Although December:Hugh Grant and Sophia Lillis would join the next month and in April Chloe Coleman joined the ensemble cast. In May, Jason Wong and Daisy Head joined the cast. British actor Dexter Fletcher was originally cast as Marlamin Holger's halfling ex husband.
He filmed his scenes without Michelle Rodriguez using the power of visual effects, but was replaced later by Bradley Cooper.
Fletcher shot the scene as a favor, and at the time Covid restrictions and quarantine rules meant having a Brit while filming in Northern Ireland made sense. Fletcher spent a day shooting his scenes, but knew the option to have somebody more recognizable play the part instead was a possibility.
John Francis Daly had worked with Bradley Cooper when he was 19.
He sent Cooper a rough cut of the movie and he loved it and the role was recast with him for the shock value of having such a recognizable actor in a cameo.
to begin the first quarter of: lming actually began in April:All of the VFX were based on the real photography and they tried to use as much of it intact as possible.
Principal photography took place in Northern Ireland, starting with a group DND session featuring all the actors role playing as their characters, which led to things being incorporated into filming based on that several hour gaming session. Now, they obviously undertook strict Covid quarantine precautions.
The old King's Landing sets for Game of Thrones were rebuilt and others retained with a new dark stone structure, artificial snow and a blue screen added. The movie was also filmed at Wells Cathedral, Alnwick Castle and Carrick Fergus Castle.
August:Honor Among Thieves invests heavily in the game's law and history, as well as in the D and D rules governing the magic's parameters and its characters. These include official movie character statistics, such as the charismatic difference between Forge and Edgin.
Forge has two charisma points more than edging, but Edgin has more points in strength and constitution. Seasoned D and D players will undoubtedly notice, though, that the movie often deviates from the game's canon in both minor and major ways.
For example, Doric the party's Druid uses the standard wild shape power to transform into animals, but she uses it far more frequently than the rules permitted twice daily limit. She also uses it to transform into an owl bear, something that real players are unable to do.
The idea was always to honor the rules of the game, but not to do it to the detriment of moving the plot forward.
For example, in the game you have to have rest periods, but that doesn't translate well to a two hour movie for characters to just randomly rest Magic spells, whether material somatic or verbal, were depicted as technically accurately as possible. But the use of spells was somewhat limited, so the team weren't overpowered.
Edgin, as the bard, would have spellcaster abilities in the game, but they wanted Simon to be the primary source of conventional magic in the movie.
Edgin's power would lean more in his ability to charm, because Chris Pine, ultimately one of the most charming people I think, that exists on the planet. Simon would also deal with the burden of a legendary family name.
His ancestor Elminster Omar, who we meet in the movie, was one of the first characters created for the Forgotten Realms setting by Ed Greenwood. And as a non player, I had no idea the lore of this character.
But to a seasoned player, Elminster would have been a fantastic addition to Simon's backstory.
And one of the things that sets Dungeons and Dragons apart from the more modern MCU movies in particular is its reliance on practical effects and animatronics. John Francis Daly and Jonathan Goldstein said from the start they wanted to make it real.
And producer Jeremy Latcham's experience at Marvel Studios making mostly practical films like Iron man lent perfectly to the ideas they had for Honor Among Thieves to be grounded in fantasy realms, but also appear tangible, plausible and real. And yes, most of Iron man is practical effects, and Jon Favreau was keen for it to stay practical.
But that's a story for a future episode on Iron Man.
Cost wise, it was about the same to do it practical as it would have been to make everything cg, but with the additional setup, it probably cost a little more in time, but it was worth it to make the world feel real. Many of the animatronics would only be seen in the background or briefly.
Some scenes, such as Paladin Xenx introduction scene had a giant fish that Xenk pulls a Tabaxi baby out of, as well as passing it to a Tabaxi mother. That was chosen specifically to show Xenk's humanity because he basically saves a kitten.
The fish was practical, the Tabaxi was practical, and then the other Tabaxi mum that was holding the Tabaxi baby is also practical. And so in that one little scene, there are three different kinds of creatures all interacting with each other, plus human characters.
And they all look great. And it's a lovely scene that just ups the awe factor.
The practical creatures were mostly created by legacy effects, and practical puppets were also augmented with CG to help with realism. And speaking of Xenk, he was never going to join the team full time.
Because Xenk is basically the NPC who shows up to help at a crucial moment and then goes his own way. But Reggae Jean Page manages to steal the show. Simon even says that Xenk can do everything. And that's the point.
If Xenk stuck around, none of the other characters would need to step up, reach their own individual potential and become the team that they need to become.
But then you contrast the practical Tabaxi scene with the Themberchaud scene, which was obviously a digital dragon, a chonky big boy king in a scene that's filled with chaos as well as humor and the fact that this dragon is actually pretty terrifying and relentless in his pursuit of a mid morning snack. Themberchaud himself was a collaboration between the filmmakers and Wizards of the coast, who basically didn't want the character to be ridiculed.
The scene was storyboarded early by Dave Krentz, who also worked on Guardians of the Galaxy, and they used obese dachshunds as examples of how they wanted the dragon to move and feel like Wizards of the coast were cool with making him a little silly.
In exchange for keeping his Red Dragon lore intact, ILM was tasked with creating the exotic locations and bringing characters like them, the Orcs and Owlbear, various other dragons and mimic the Gelatinous Cube and the Displacer Beast to life.
The VFX crew even set up their own D and D game with VFX coordinator Charlie Rock, an accomplished dungeon master with COVID lockdowns often making on location shoots an issue. VFX was used to scan locations to create CG versions of those locations.
The Owlbear was particularly challenging as she had to believably have both feathers and fur and feel like a cohesive whole creature that moved like both owl and bear, not just an owl and a bear connected.
Post production was done mostly remotely with a few trips to ilm where all the visual effects vendors, ilm, NPC and crafty apes could send the work and have it viewed simultaneously. This movie was undoubtedly hampered by the pandemic in so many ways, and yet they seem to have used that to their advantage.
s, died of prostate cancer in: In:The Hollywood Reporter announced a Dungeons and Dragons TV series in development, totally separate project to the film, written and developed by Derek Kolstad. Kolstad also created the John Wick franchise.
He wrote John Wick, John Wick Chapter 2 and John Wick Chapter 3 Parabellum, all of which star Keanu Reeves. And that is the obligatory Keanu reference for this episode.
That is the part of the episode where I try and link the movie that I'm featuring with Keanu Reeves.
unced as the composer in July:He played it as a kid. The characters in DND were his superheroes.
He returned to his Scottish roots for the film school, which is full of delicate, mystical Celtic themes blended with a large cinematic lush orchestra. The score received positive reviews from critics. Not the only thing that received a positive review from critics though.
The original song Wings of Time is also featured in the movie. It was performed by Tame Impala and it was written by Kevin Parker from Tame Impala and Nick Ulbrook.
t San Diego comic con in July:I mean, there's a whole Dungeons and Dragons RPG out there to technically promote it, but there were also prequel tie in books featuring Doric as the main character in the novel the druids call by E.K. johnston and another one for Edgin Darvas in the Road to Neverwinter by Jalai Johnson.
Dungeons and Honor among the Feast of the moon is a 96 page prequel graphic novel which focuses on Edgin and his band of thieves with a backup story focused on Xenk and the Helmet of Disjunction. Hasbro also released promotional toys and other merchandise based on the film, such as Monopoly, Dieselings and Golden Archive action figures.
But the marketing of this movie had a bit of a problem, and it was nothing to do with the movie itself, but what was happening at Hasbro and Wizards of the coast.
And it led to a number of D and D fans boycotting Dungeons and Dragons Honor Among Thieves due to the ongoing backlash against Hasbro and Wizards of the Coast's decision to change its open gaming license.
t was leaked in early January:RPGs like Pathfinder, which are permitted to use some D and D mechanics under the original Open Gaming License, as well as the vast community of third party D& D content, might now be subject to much stricter regulations.
As a result of the change, the original OGL was made to allow third party groups to create products that are compatible with official Dungeons and Dragons rules.
It was less than 900 words and the language was intentionally broad, but the new OGL 1.1 was more complex, nearly 10 times as long, and it would grant Wizards of the coast the ability to, quote, make money off of these products without paying the person who made it, unquote. And companies that made over $750,000 would have to start paying Hasbro a 25% cut of their earnings.
More than 66,000 fans signed an open letter addressed to Hasbro, DND beyond and Wizards of the coast expressing disgust at the proposed changes.
They viewed the changes as nothing but a money making scheme and an attempt to squash small time creators who did not pose a serious threat to Hasbro.
Larger community voices like Critical Role voiced their disapproval of it and fans took to social media to declare they would not watch Dungeons and Dragons honor among thieves or support official D and D products until Wizards of the coast reversed the new regulations. In response, Wizards of the coast put out a statement apologizing for its recent actions and silence regarding the new rules.
The company stated it would be reworking the OGL based on fan and third party feedback and that the new updates would not impact anything published under the original rules. D and D Beyond then posted a statement saying, quote, it was never our intention to impact the vast majority of the community.
The company is reversing its position on the OGL to protect educational and charitable campaigns, live streams, cosplay and other content created by community members.
It has also announced that the redrafted agreement would not include any royalty structure or the license backed provision that some people were afraid was a means for us to steal work, unquote. But of course that didn't stop boycottdndmovie becoming a thing and briefly trending on social media.
And the backlash did seemingly hurt the movie, which was released two months later. But it wasn't the biggest thing to hurt it.
March:Dungeons and Dragons debuted at number one in its first weekend of release, but then Mario released and the weekly charts tell a slightly different story of it debuting at number two. It would stay in the top 10 for seven weeks, but the Mario Brothers would dominate the box office. They would have number one for five weeks.
In that respect, Dungeons and Dragons didn't really stand a chance to make the money it needed to families, given the choice overwhelmingly chose Mario and Luigi to the tune of $1.3 billion.
So on its $150 million budget, Dungeons and Dragons Honor Among Thieves grossed $93.3 million domestically in the US and $112 million internationally, for a total worldwide gross of $205.2 million. Poor marketing, the Super Mario Brothers movie and the fan boycotts were blamed for the disappointing commercial success.
And this is despite it being a huge critical success with a 91% of rotten tomatoes with the consensus reading an infectiously good spirited comedy with a solid emotional core, Dungeons and Honor Among Thieves offers fun fantasy and adventure, even if you don't know your HP from your opinion.
terview with Polygon in April:But no word on sequel since, which is hugely disappointing. And this world is so ripe for new stories.
o series by Paramount plus in:Again, no further word on this critical role.
Have seen their D and D adventures unfold in the Animated series the Legend of Vox Machina though RPGs like Dungeons and Dragons allow us to become different people in scenarios so different to our real lives, but they also help shape us as people.
It is a collaborative community of storytelling, a team of people with different traits and personalities using their strengths to tell a story from beginning to end, or sometimes not end in it. We get to explore aspects of ourselves we don't in our day to day lives create social bonds with people we might not get to see all the time.
RPGs are unique because they allow you to experience these emotional journeys as a different person figuring out your own priorities and worldview. You embark on a journey that challenges you to become a better person, a better friend, a better colleague, a better parent, or a better teammate.
And you do this in a safe, encouraging environment with no judgment, no restrictions other than the rules set by your games master. And potentially it helps you to explore your identity too.
Playing games can be transformative and it's rarely spoken about or discussed on a public forum.
As I mentioned before, the majority of players of Dungeons and dragons are male, 61%, and it's easy to presume that the majority of those are probably white, straight and cisgender. This movie has just two straight white guys in leading roles and not once is it questioned why.
And I genuinely believe it's because, despite the straight white male leaning of the player demographics, that the game leans so heavily into broad representations of different genders, races, character classes, abilities and power sources that you expect a D and D movie to be as representative as possible while actively trying to avoid the tropes that plague many comedy team up hero or fantasy movies.
We still unfortunately get the recently deceased wife and the grieving father struggling to raise his child, but that's juxtaposed by the ending and Edgin realizing he needs to stop selfishly keeping Ciara's actual mother Holga from her.
Holga helped raise her, she has the bond with Holger and that's lovely to see, as well as the non traditional platonic child rearing scenario that never once goes romantic. Romance is not something this movie prioritizes and it's all the better for it.
Unlike Game of Thrones, House of the Dragon, or the Rings of Power, this is bright, colorful, family friendly and just an absolute blast to watch. It pains me that this movie didn't do better, because if we're going to allow Hollywood to adapt ip, this is how it should be done. With heart.
Genuine admiration for the source material and an understanding of it and what fans want from it, not some generic money making exercise. That's what this movie did. It's created by fans for fans, but also not just for fans. By all accounts, D and D fans love this movie.
There are always some detractors, but overwhelmingly this movie seems to work for both D and D players and non players, with enough Easter eggs and game references for fans that don't alienate everyone else. And that is an incredible feat to pull off. It doesn't mock or make fun of its material or its fans. It's a bit like Galaxy Quest in that respect.
It winks at the absurdity through humor, but it still has so much love and respect for its own legacy. You can see the Ocean's Eleven here, you can see the Princess Bride, and it evokes so much inspiration and joy.
In many ways, if you think about it, it also makes sense that this movie didn't make the money it needed, because playing D and D, or indeed any rpg, isn't really about the money. It's not about buying anything. It's not supposed to be a moneymaker as much as Hasbro wants it to be one.
Hasbro was hoping to entice more people to play the game itself through the sheer fun and spectacle of honor among thieves. And to me, that's worked.
It's opened up the idea of the game to so many new people without isolating them from the experience by making the movie only appeal to fans.
If Hasbro do want to grow D and D, making more movies actually makes sense from the point of view of welcoming more people into the arena and ideally not annoying the longtime fans who've been there a while too. I love this movie. I could watch it over and over. It's infectious, funny and vibrant. It hits you in the feels at the right moments.
Everyone is perfectly cast, even if the characters are hardly a stretch. But this is a movie that by all accounts should have been awful, especially based on what came before it.
It's a rare gem of a movie that will stand the test of time thanks to a perfect and seamless blend of practical visual effects and CG that service the story rather than the story servicing the effects. Everything in this movie exists for a reason, and it's just so well done.
It's chaotic and silly, but I expect that sort of energy playing the game in real life too. So this Christmas, do yourself a favor if you haven't and watch this movie. Get the family together. It's a guaranteed crowd pleaser.
And even if you've never played D and D in your life, it will charm you. Like it? Charmed me. Ask me five questions about it on social media if you like.
I am @verbaldiorama on all of the social medias and if this is all we ever get from this world, it was a great thing to get. Well, that and hey look. The Dungeons and Dragons ride.
Speaker B:Thank you for listening. As always, I would love to hear your thoughts on Dungeons and Dragons, Honor Among Thieves and thank you for your continued support of this podcast.
If you want to get involved and help this podcast grow, you could tell your friends and family about this episode or about this podcast, especially if they are a D and D fan. Please let me know if you think I did this Lord justice, because I worked incredibly hard on this episode. It's a bit longer than normal.
Because of that reason I couldn't talk about everything D and D, but I hope I talked about enough. If you did enjoy it, please leave a rating or review wherever you found this episode and you can also share and like posts on social media.
You can find me on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, Threads, Bluesky and LetterboxDrBaldiorama.
And if you like this episode on Dungeons and Dragons, Honor among Thieves and you're interested in listening to some independent Dungeons and Dragons podcasts, you might also want to listen to these. These have been recommended to me on social media and they are Time to Die.
Join the Party, Dungeons and Dragons and Daughters and Do Dragons Dream of Scorched Sheep? I will put links to all of those podcasts in the show notes. If you are interested, please pop along to them and have a listen.
Next Episode A more traditional Christmas movie next week. Or at least a movie set during Christmas written by Shane Black who basically puts Christmas settings in practically every movie.
So it's definitely a Christmas movie, unless you think it's just a bloody cop movie. The next episode is on the history and legacy of Lethal Weapon. It is a movie that I have not seen for, oh, about 20 years.
So I am looking forward to watching Lethal Weapon again and I'm looking forward to going into the history and legacy of Lethal Weapon. This podcast is free and it always will be free. However, it is not free to run a podcast.
So if you have the means and you would like to support the show financially, you can do so in one of two ways. You can go to verbaldiorama.com tips and give a one off tip. Or you can go to verbaldiorama dot com patreon and you can join the amazing patrons.
They are Sade, Claudia, Simon, Laurel, Derek, Kat, Andy, Mike, Luke, Michael, Scott, Brendan, Lisa, Sam, Jack, Dave, Stuart, Nicholas so Kev, Pete, Heather, Danny, Allie, Stu, Brett, Philip M, Michelle, Zenos, Sean, Rhino, Philip K, Adam, Elaine and Kyle if you want to get in touch, you could email verbaldioramail.com you can say hi. You can give me feedback or suggestions. Or you can go to verbaldiorama.com and fill out the little contact form.
You can also find work that I do@filmstories.co.uk too. Both on the website and in the magazine. And finally.
