We explore how television is about to change. And chat with guest Heather Rose Walters from Iffly and discuss her experience with Redwall.

Hosts: William Sikkens, Bill Snodgrass, and Gretchen Winkler

Welcome to User Friendly 2.0 with host

2

Bill Sikkens, technology architect.

3

And this is User Friendly 2.0 as always,

I am your host Bill Sikkens.

4

Joining me Gretchen.

5

Bill, welcome to this week's show.

6

Hello there.

7

You can say hello.

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I mean, it's okay

to we always say it at the same time.

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It's really.

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I'll try I'll try and pause, you know,

and wait or I'll try and do it quickly.

11

We always say at the same time, it's

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going to have to come up

with a new opening,

13

because I'm getting accused in

some of the comments

14

that we've recorded, that whole part.

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I just I say the same thing every week,

but it's, it's it's live, right.

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You know, so I am your host.

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Like I'm like,

well, what else are you. You know,

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next week is Palpatine.

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This is user friendly. Do it.

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You know.

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So you have to speak it slower motion.

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Yes I think something dockside. Yes.

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And as I was told, make his face grayer.

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Oh, okay.

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You didn't know it was that great.

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I play Palpatine just to say,

you know what we're talking about here.

27

And it is definitely necessary

to do makeup

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that makes you look very gray.

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You know, I could be token for Roswell.

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Gray alien, maybe, but I started

putting that green stuff on you

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that's supposed to remove the red on your

on your skin.

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So I was using this green stuff

and blending it in,

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and then I was trying to lighten him up

and put gray and white on him.

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I'm not a makeup person.

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It worked.

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You know, and that's where it was.

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So anyway.

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All right.

We got some cool stuff for you this week.

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Our second segment coming up,

we're going to be talking

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about interactive fiction

and fiction in general.

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And we're going to have a guest on

that is going to tell you

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how you can actually make a choose

your own adventure type game for free,

43

and it's something that anybody can do,

and it's actually really cool.

44

So that's coming up.

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But before we get into that,

June is right around the corner.

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I believe it's day

after tomorrow or so, and

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we have an anniversary

that we need to celebrate

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and the anniversary

that's coming up here in June.

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I don't know, wait for it.

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Is it something that something that

you know about or have heard about?

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Do you have any idea what I'm talking

about?

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Your mom's birthday.

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Well, that's one of them, but

this one's on June 12th, and it happened

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in 2009, my grandmother's birthday.

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Is that her birthday?

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Well, all right,

we've drugged that out long enough.

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That is the anniversary of when they shut

down analog TV here in the United States.

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Oh, okay.

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Well, yeah.

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Yeah, yeah,

I'm surprised you didn't get that.

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Anyway, so when that went out,

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we went to digital TV

and what was known as atSC 1.0.

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And that's the standard.

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That was the original digital standard

that allowed for both analog and high

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definition broadcasting, multicast,

and some of the other features

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that we use today.

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The acronym stands for Advanced

Television Systems Committee,

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which sets up these standards.

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So this technology required everybody

replacing their televisions

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and everybody replacing their tuners,

or getting one

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that would work

with the older televisions.

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But what you got out of it

was better set high definition,

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and if you're into flat screens

and all that kind of thing,

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which for a lot of us

is a lot easier to lug around than a CRT.

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Some of us are weird

and still like the CRT,

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but for actual television

you could do the widescreen.

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The what is it, Fahrenheit 451

type stuff,

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where you have this giant screen

that actually does watch you

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for another

time, but this stuff is out there.

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So we're kind of plunging along,

and now we are talking about atSC 3.0.

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And yes, they did skip version two.

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And they're referring to this

as next gen TV, which more likely

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if you've heard of this, you've

probably heard of it as next gen TV.

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And I was confused.

85

I thought, like next generation Star Trek.

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Oh, I was thinking a kind of cyborg.

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That's like the second generation of well,

I thought things like that too.

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But, you know, that's weird. It's not.

At least not in this context.

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They're talking

about a new version of this that will

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bring some additional things that,

in order to get it, is going to require

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you replacing your tuner

or your television. Again.

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And unlike version 1.0, the tuners to do

this are a lot more expensive.

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And we'll talk about why that is the case

here.

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And I like my current TV.

95

With that, go away or you'd have to get

a box to be able to use it now.

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Okay, one thing to point out here,

this only affects over the air broadcast.

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So if you're using a streaming service,

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you know like Disney Plus or something,

it doesn't affect that.

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But it's the only air channels

now where this is coming.

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A lot of people just stream now.

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And if that's the case, you're

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probably not going to have to worry

too much about it.

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But like I still use over the air

broadcasts

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and I have a device

where I have an antenna outside

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and I have a box

that retransmit that over my network

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so that I can pick it up

on all my televisions

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without running wires everywhere.

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But it means I get my local channels

without having to pay a subscription

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for that,

get my news, everything like that.

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And for other networks,

you can use an over-the-top service

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that's a lot less money

than what it would cost to do all of that,

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like a Hulu TV, which is, what, 80

bucks a month now or something

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that's a godly like that, you know?

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But I like this because

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it's something that is very usable

and doesn't cost

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anything other than the equipment,

but you pay for it once.

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So what is the version three bring to us?

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And yes, I'm kind of

foreshadowing a problem with that.

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Well, the good part of it all.

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So existing standards

do not support 4K over the air.

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So that is something cool. HDR,

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high definition response, wider color,

higher frame rates, Dolby Atmos audio.

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Now for me that's a big deal for a lot of

people are going what's that?

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The surround sound system.

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That's really kind of cool.

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It's more immersive.

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And the other thing

that they're talking about,

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and I'll believe this

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when I see it, is that there's more robust

mobile and indoor reception.

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This was one of the big things

about digital television.

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On analog,

if you picked up a signal that was weak,

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it might have some snow and distortion,

but you could still pick it up digitally.

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It just simply stops working.

You either get it or you don't.

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Oh, and goes away.

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So this has been a problem.

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That was one of the big complaints

people have had about it,

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that they're saying

that this is going to address.

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One of the other things is interactive

features,

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live stats during sports,

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interactive emergency

alerts, local information.

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So it's interactive so you can talk back.

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So now it's not just watching you

over your Wi-Fi.

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It can put it out

through the over-the-air signals.

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And yes I don't like that.

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But the other things that this brings

with, like anything else, is an upgrade

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that will bring additional capability

for broadcasters.

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All right.

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So downside to this

well why they want it.

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And then we'll talk

about the downside to it.

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So are we going to have icky commercials

that are really intrusive because of it?

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I don't

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think any more than you have a

with broadcast television now.

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Oh, okay.

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The technology does use packaging like

a Wi-Fi network or a cellular network.

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So I guess it is possible they could do

narrowcast targeted commercials.

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It probably is an option.

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It would have to look into that.

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That hasn't been talked about a lot

because the standards are still

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being finalized. Okay.

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But what they're trying to do

is give broadcasters

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a better like to compete against things

like Netflix.

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Okay, I understand

that gives it a better picture quality

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and different things as well as mobile

broadcasting data delivery opportunities.

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From my understanding

of some of my reads on the technologies

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that can actually deliver

your internet connection using this,

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which would be nice to have another option

for that, right?

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I'm sure that wouldn't be free,

but it is an option.

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So all right

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goes beyond that.

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But what is one of the big sticking points

right now.

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There's actually two.

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One of them is

that the tuners are extremely expensive.

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So your $20 box for version

one is going to be

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at a minimum of an $80 box for version

three.

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Your version one box does DVR.

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Sometimes in a lot of these other

features, version three won't.

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At that price point,

it'll be more expensive,

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and they have not been getting

a lot of adoption from the manufacturers

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due to this, to the point

that the broadcasters are pushing for them

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to shut down version 1.0 and sunset it in

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I've even seen 2027 next year.

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I don't think we're going to see that,

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but definitely something

that's coming up here.

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And the other big sticking point is DRM.

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They want to encrypt their broadcasts.

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So unless you have decryption technology,

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which is why the tuners

are so much more expensive,

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you won't be able to get access

to over-the-air broadcasts.

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So all of a sudden it's

going to make it harder

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for for the general public

to get information.

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So what's going to. Yes, to put it mildly.

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And what's going to happen

here is like, right now

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you can still record

and over the air broadcast.

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So think TiVo.

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There's modern versions

that will allow you to do that.

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In fact, the system that I use to receive

and put it on my Wi-Fi has that built in.

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I actually have a hard drive

connected to the box, but with DRM,

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unless you pay a subscription,

they could prevent you from doing that.

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Heck,

they could even prevent it from being able

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to be retransmitted

over your Wi-Fi network in your house.

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So you would have to run wires like

the old rabbit ears to each television.

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That is possible,

and that is one of the reasons why people

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are really not liking this, you know?

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Yeah.

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So if you look at the idea

that in all reality, the version 3.02

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and are right now would up the price

of your television by a minimum of $100.

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So exact same thing

does the exact same capability.

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Version 1.0 is 500 bucks,

version 3.0 is 600 or more,

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because there's licensing required

for the encryption technology

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that you have to pay for that

nobody wants.

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Yeah, that nobody wants.

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The point is, is I always thought

television was a communication device,

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a device to get information out

to the general public, just like a radio.

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Yeah. You know. Yeah.

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And that is the case.

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And it's supposed to be open

so that anybody can receive it, right?

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And right now, my system

that I use here again for the Wi-Fi

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is capable of version 3.0,

but it's not capable of the decryption.

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So the channels come up in the list.

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But if you try to tune to them,

it won't decrypt them

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because it's not authorized to do that.

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The hardware would do it,

but the broadcasters won't allow it.

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This is a problem, at least in my opinion,

you know?

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So do push this.

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Broadcasters want,

like we were saying, a firm shutdown date

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and then mandatory tuners

in new televisions.

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Right now what they're doing is

they're simulcasting.

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So version one, version

three are out there.

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They broadcasters can broadcast

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and version three,

but they still have to do version one.

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They would like to shut that down.

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Now we were talking about sun

setting dates

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the dates I'm setting seeing here,

which is probably a little bit

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more updated than the information I just

had, would be the top

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markets

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So two years

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The four years.

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And I

don't know, it's see, the thing of it is

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and I look at this from a standpoint

of if you have a new technology

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and it's great new technology,

you should not have to force it on people.

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People should buy it because it's new

and it does something great.

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And I'll tell you what,

if they got rid of this DRM stuff,

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it would certainly make adoption

a lot faster.

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The price of the tuners

would come down, for one thing.

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Yeah, I'm

seeing the dream thing needs to go

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and then this could be a success

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and then they wouldn't

have to broadcast the old stuff.

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So they need to like step up to the plate,

dump the DRM,

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and then get their opportunity

to not have to broadcast

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two things at the same time.

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Exactly, exactly.

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And DRM, I mean, you know, okay,

so we talked about it breaks

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your DVR won't work,

at least not without a license.

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The other thing of it

is that they talk about here is open

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source solutions

like Linux or other operating systems.

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So you want to talk about that.

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If you have a streaming memory

or a streaming

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device, memory device, streaming

device for your television,

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I would be willing to bet you that

runs on a version of Linux.

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I know the fire TV does,

I know Apple TV does, I know Roku does.

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Those are the big ones, you know?

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And all of a sudden

that wouldn't work anymore

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unless there was a license from

the broadcasters allowing it to do so.

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You know,

tuner compatibility we've talked about

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confusion is another thing,

which is kind of a big deal here.

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Now the broadcasters argue

that this prevents piracy and so on.

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They can do premium content.

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But again over the year broadcast

that was never really the idea of it.

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It's to send information out there

and you can record it if you want to.

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And that's paid for by the commercials

that you were just talking about that

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you see.

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Yeah.

273

And again, that is to me a problem.

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It just is.

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So you look at the developments of

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technology

and kind of pushing ahead just in general.

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And right now I'm not sure

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that you can buy a television

with a version three tuner even in it.

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So anything

new right now would not be compatible.

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Well, just that DRM thing alone would

281

would be a problem because it would make

all your other stuff not work.

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Right,

if I'm understanding correctly. Basically.

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Yeah.

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It breaks that, you know.

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But you're just starting

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to see it with next gen

and all that kind of thing.

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And your budget models

certainly don't have it.

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So you know what ends up happening here.

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You know,

we talk about on the show e-waste,

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I would have have a feeling

that there's probably going to be a box

291

that would be compatible

with your version one.

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In fact,

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they've been talking about

having the broadcaster spearhead this,

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which is another problem, because it's

not the job of the broadcasters

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to come up with the standard

or certainly create the device.

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Yeah.

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You know, and they're doing that because

no other company is trying to get into it.

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And the ones that are silicon dust is one

that makes a really good system.

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A home run TV,

I think is what that's called.

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And the silicon dust system is very much

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blocked by this, even though it has

a version three tuner in it.

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You go to that right now

and it's the case.

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So yeah, it's technically good.

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4K would be nice to be able

to have over the air.

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Interactive components,

as long as it's not abused

306

would be a good thing

to have over the air.

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But you talk about slowing innovation.

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I think the argument would be the DRM

blocks innovation in many ways.

309

Exactly. Yep.

310

I don't know, we all work with computers

and stuff and new technology.

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DRM is been a big issue across the board.

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Remember Napster?

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Yeah.

314

You know, so they want to have Dharam.

315

Only reason that we have three players

is because that wasn't included on CDs.

316

If there was

any kind of encryption on that,

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even if it was very easy to break,

it would still make copying it not legal.

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Right.

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And that kind of a thing.

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Well, they tried starting to block it.

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What happened to hold music

industry went away.

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Yeah,

because it just kind of shriveled up

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and the creativity just kind of shrunk

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because you're you're crushing people.

325

Yeah.

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And if you're going out there, I'll,

I'll give you an example of this type

327

of thing that they really should remember

is the whole VHS and Betamax.

328

So for some of our younger listeners,

329

there was a time

that you got your videos on a tape

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and you had a device at your house

that you plug the tape into.

331

You could rent these at stores

or buy them or whatever,

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and you would watch the tape

and your movie would be on that.

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You could record on it

and that type of thing.

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And there were two mainstream formats

in the beginning for this VHS.

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It stood for Video Home System

and then Betamax, which was a format

336

made by Sony which was superior to VHS.

337

VHS ended up becoming the standard

because of licensing things

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anybody could make a VHS player.

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I believe JVC was the company

that created the standard.

340

And but anybody I want to go

make a VHS, VCR, that's great.

341

Go out there and do it.

342

Here's the, you know, basic stuff

so it'll be compatible.

343

Sony wanted to make a license

where you want to make this.

344

Well, you have to pay us a premium for it.

345

That is exactly the same thing

that's going on now.

346

That's keeping this new version

347

of over the air broadcast

from being widely adopted.

348

I can't make it

without permission of somebody.

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Well, and I'm not going to.

350

And if the consumers aren't demanding it,

I'm really not going to, you know.

351

And guess what? We had tons.

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Everybody had a VHS player.

353

And then we had the big VHS camcorders,

you know.

354

So you were recording family events,

and then you took those tapes

355

out of the camera

and you put it into your VHS player

356

and showed it on TV,

and your family could watch,

357

you know, so-and-so's

wedding or birthday party.

358

It was great.

359

Yeah.

360

And, you know, these type of things

and anybody could view it.

361

The very first camcorder, from

my understanding was the Betacam.

362

Again, Sony created this for the Betamax.

363

And so lack of innovation

Sony is a very innovative company.

364

There's no question about that.

365

But the very first camcorder

that came out with there was one model,

366

and you couldn't do things like playback,

what you had recorded with the camera.

367

So in addition to carrying this huge

device, you had to have a Betamax player

368

if you wanted to watch

what you had recorded.

369

So same thing with VHS

when it first came out.

370

And the next model,

you could play it back with the camcorder.

371

It was also a VCR

372

somebody developed.

373

It wasn't JVC, it was another company.

374

But they go,

375

you know, we can make a better mousetrap

and we're allowed to do it here.

376

So we're going to make people

want to buy our device.

377

Well, that made the standard

378

even more compatible

and something that people would want.

379

And there's a rumor out there that it was

because Sony wouldn't license

380

for adult videos. That's not the case.

381

It was because of the inability

382

to create the equipment

without their permission to do it.

383

And again, in that time

384

period, you know, to buy

a movie was over $100

385

and this would have been $1,980

when this first started.

386

That's what created things

like blockbuster and other stores

387

that would rent videotapes later DVDs

because of the cost of that.

388

Now all that's come down in price

now, of course, and now we stream it. But

389

yeah, it is absolutely interesting

to look where that goes.

390

And this is something that's

very old technology that it seems like

391

they haven't

completely learned their lesson on it yet,

392

that people are going to go with something

that everybody can use, you know.

393

Yeah. And it generates creativity.

394

Yeah.

395

When everybody can access it

and not be afraid to do that.

396

Supposedly we have a right to make

an archival copy of anything we buy.

397

So you buy a CD or whatever

the case may be.

398

I'd like someone to explain to me

how to make my archival

399

copy that I'm allowed to make

of a digitally downloaded,

400

DRM protected video game on my Xbox.

401

Anybody? Either.

402

How to do that?

403

Send it in the comments.

404

I'd love to learn how.

405

And by the way, you can't

406

unless you hack the thing,

but that's a whole nother story.

407

And even with that, the activation

still registered with the network.

408

So even if

409

you manage to get it out of there somehow,

copy it onto somewhere else, you'd have

410

to do a lot to get that to work,

because it's so tightly controlled.

411

And again, I don't know, Nintendo

the switch two came out.

412

We're backward compatible

with the original switch. Great.

413

Except the new one doesn't

take cartridges.

414

Well, how is that backward

compatible? You know, and

415

so yeah, at the end of the day, it's

just crazy to do this.

416

I don't know, can you think

of any other examples of new technology

417

that has been stifled

by these kind of problems?

418

A lot of portability,

affordability, automotive industry?

419

Think about that.

That's another one. Yeah.

420

You know, and you're right, automotive

or affordability is a big part of it

421

because you have to have all this licensed

technology, average transaction

422

price for a car in the United States

at $50,000 in December.

423

It's backed off

a little bit like 49,000 now.

424

But a big part of that is it's

because all of these things in the car

425

have to be licensed from somewhere

that might be owned by the distributor,

426

but now you're paying for the research

and development of something

427

that somebody else has also created,

because they don't want to license it out.

428

When when my car was new,

429

it was considered a luxury model.

430

My Honda

431

Accord SS with moonroof.

432

Okay.

433

It was $18,000.

434

Yeah, yeah, I love that car.

435

Yeah.

436

You know, it's like, oh, you know,

437

and you know, we've

talked about in the past right to repair.

438

Well you and I just did some repairs on

that fixing dash lights and other things.

439

Yeah.

440

And I want to be able to repair that car.

441

I want to keep it around. I love that car.

442

Now, let me

let me ask you a question again.

443

You know,

you're looking at this kind of a thing.

444

Your modern car

is going to have LED lights.

445

So they do last longer.

446

But let's say

you keep it until they go out.

447

Do you honestly think there's a standard

LED that you're going to be able

448

to get somewhere to just change the bulb,

so to speak?

449

I have no idea.

450

I don't know what Mazda's personality

is going to be like.

451

I'm looking for that is no.

452

So like your tail lights and stuff,

it's a printed circuit board

453

with the lights soldered to it

that are proprietary to that car,

454

that has a chip that communicates

with the module that runs the car,

455

and if something has gotten

goofed up with it, like you've changed it,

456

you're going to start getting errors

and all kinds of things

457

probably still run and lights

would probably still come on.

458

But it's not like you can just go to

the auto parts store and buy that part.

459

And we're seeing that

in a lot of different things.

460

It's running up the prices.

461

It's giving less selection

on different things.

462

Yeah.

463

You know,

it used to be that if you bought a car

464

and wanted to replace the radio in it, you

could try doing that with a modern car.

465

Now, I think if you took that head

unit out, the car would just.

466

No. And it looks really strange.

467

And then.

468

Oh, looks like we're getting close to our,

our getting ready to say goodbye.

469

Yeah, well,

470

that's looking really strange to you,

but yeah, a lot of this is a thing, so.

471

Yeah, just to talk about it

and all this kind of stuff.

472

But circling back, this is what

the new next gen television is.

473

We'll see what happens with it.

474

This is user friendly 2.0.

475

We'll be back after the break.

476

He's from the future.

477

He's got a really big computer

478

and he uses it uses it every day.

479

And he uses it uses it in every way.

480

What you use it for, you know, I'm

not that sure because he hears it.

481

Welcome back. This is user friendly 2.0.

482

Check out our website at User Friendly

Dot show.

483

Everything is there for you in one stop.

484

You can find our past episodes.

485

You can submit your questions.

486

You can even go get Cyber Hawk books.

487

All of that's right there.

488

And we're going to be talking about that

in a few minutes.

489

Because our topic for

this segment is interactive fiction

490

and fiction in general.

491

And we have a guess that's going to be

joining us here in just a minute.

492

That's going to be talking

about a platform they put together

493

that I actually got to try.

And it's really cool.

494

We're for free.

495

You can make a game that works

like the old Zork or

496

choose your own adventure type things.

497

It was kind of fun to be able

to see that out there,

498

and that it actually is

something that anybody can do.

499

So let's go ahead and go to the interview,

and we'll talk about this a little bit

500

when we come back.

501

Joining us now guest Heather Rose Walters,

game writer and inventor of iFly,

502

the code free game writing software.

503

Welcome to User Friendly.

504

Thank you so much.

505

Thanks for having me.

506

I'm so excited to be here.

507

Oh, this is going to be great.

508

Reading through everything

before we started the interview today,

509

this sounds very interesting because I'm

curious to know what this even is.

510

I'm a programmer,

so anytime stuff like this comes up,

511

it's just an area of like,

okay, let's see how that works.

512

But let's start with you and your company

and what is interactive fiction,

513

because I think that kind of

514

gets us into the realm

of what we want to talk about today.

515

Definitely.

516

Interactive fiction

is exactly what it sounds like.

517

It's fiction that you interact with,

although some people have used it

518

also with nonfiction.

But that's a whole nother interview.

519

It's a form of gaming,

but it's just entirely text based.

520

So technically,

all of the original games out there

521

where you just were typing

text is a form of interactive fiction.

522

So right now there's a whole bunch

of different versions of it, like

523

Bandersnatch on Netflix

was kind of a form of interactive fiction.

524

The choose your Own adventure books

from like back in the 80s,

525

although they do still publish

now, are like a, you know,

526

a physical copy of interactive fiction.

527

And now there's a ton of apps out there

528

where you can play interactive fiction

games on your phone, and they're just text

529

based stories where you get to choose

and affect the narrative.

530

So I'm going to date myself here,

but this would be like

531

in the old days, Zork or Hitchhiker's

Guide to the Galaxy, that kind of thing.

532

Right? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

533

Now, the more common ones.

534

Oh, sorry. Go ahead.

535

I would just say I used to it.

I love those games.

536

Yeah, yeah. Super exciting.

537

Now it's more common

for the interactive fiction to have like

538

buttons that you select

as opposed to typing in, you know,

539

an infinite number of options,

although those still do exist.

540

But typically when someone talks

541

about interactive

fiction, more often than not it's an app

542

that's all text based,

and you have buttons that you can select

543

and you're following the story down

a path.

544

I remember old software like that

that we're would tell you,

545

take you on an adventure.

546

So this makes a lot of sense.

547

I enjoy that

more than some of the new games too.

548

Still, it's just there's more ability

to be in there, and you're not having

549

to learn like five hours of how

to play the game before you play the game.

550

So, you know, it just

it makes a huge difference.

551

All right. If Lee, what is Iffley.

552

Why did you invent it?

553

Tell us a little bit

about what you're doing.

554

Sure.

555

Yeah, well, I'm a game writer.

556

I was working in a game studio in Oregon.

557

Soma games in Newburgh.

558

They're awesome.

559

We were working on the red wall games.

560

If you're familiar with Red wall,

it's a book series.

561

I was obsessed with it as a kid.

562

We were working on the games

and we started an interactive fiction

563

app, Lost Legends of Red wall.

564

So essentially it's the story set

within the Red wall universe.

565

But me and the writers were creating

566

interactive fiction stories

for that space.

567

And as I was working on it, me

and one other writer were

568

the ones who are kind of mainly creating

that stuff.

569

We just really hit a wall

in our creative process of writing.

570

Whereas I had come from more screenplay

and book writing has been

571

what I've kind of done in the past,

more linear.

572

You can really get into a flow

like you sit down and you just write.

573

You don't have programing, you don't have

technical things kind of blocking you.

574

So I just kept thinking to myself like,

man, I wish there was something I could do

575

that would just be really easy.

576

We ended up

577

the studio used artist's draft,

which is amazing

578

if you're creating bigger games, but

we would have to write it in Google Docs

579

and then kind of

580

send it to the devs

and they would have to like copy and paste

581

it, or we'd have to copy

and paste it into our city draft.

582

It was very like just kind of not ideal.

583

And I just thought,

you know, for game studio,

584

you use the bigger

things like RNC draft or whatever.

585

But for a new writer,

especially someone who's never done game

586

writing, it's really hard to get into

because of the technical block.

587

And so I just I just had this picture

in my mind of how I wanted it to be.

588

And I am not a programmer.

589

I'm not a developer.

590

I'm a writer writer first.

591

So I ended up getting laid off

from that job,

592

which was a big bummer,

but a blessing disguise because I

593

then had time to work on the design

for this, so I just designed

594

exactly how I wanted it to look,

but I didn't actually build it.

595

I hired amazing devs to build it and now

have partners devs who are working on it.

596

But basically it is no code,

no syntax, no logic, just typing.

597

You just type.

598

You can create your whole story.

599

There's no design, you don't.

600

There's just nothing but words.

601

So the same experience

you get, like writing a screenplay

602

in Final Draft

or writing your book in Microsoft Word.

603

This is what it is for interactive fiction

if we also is a platform.

604

So with one click

you can publish your interactive

605

game on iFly

and anyone can go play it and it's free.

606

No, that's sounds amazing.

607

So is it like an AI picks up

what you send to it and creates the game?

608

How does that work?

609

No, no, no,

I mean the AI has a lot of great uses,

610

so I don't want to bash it too much.

611

Although I know a lot of

writers are very like not pro AI.

612

So I want to be really sensitive to like

613

how much we do use it

and we don't use it with Iffley at all.

614

It is a software built,

a browser based software.

615

So you're typing and it

616

the software is designed to take

what you're typing and create the game.

617

So you have content blocks,

which is where your story is.

618

And you have buttons.

619

You type into a content block, you hit

shift enter, and it makes the button.

620

When a person is playing that,

they see the text and they see a button.

621

So it's very simple writing to playing.

622

And you also as a writer,

you'll see like the tracking lines,

623

you'll see the trails of the story,

whereas the writer, the reader

624

player will just be the text

and the immediate buttons before them.

625

And you can obviously test it.

626

There's like a reader view

as you're writing.

627

There's you can now we've added a future

628

where you can actually add images

if you want, but you don't have to.

629

And so that's kind of that's it's

behind the scenes like a

630

I sort of compared to a bread maker.

631

Creating bread is a very long,

arduous technical process.

632

And if you get a bread maker,

as long as you have the ingredients

633

and the ingredients in my mind

are good writing and a good story,

634

you just throw it in and a game comes out

and it really is that simple.

635

Oh, that sounds absolutely amazing.

636

Gretchen's our resident author here,

and we've been thinking about some stuff

637

for some of her books.

638

And Gretchen, you know,

this might be interesting to try.

639

Yeah, it sounds interesting.

640

I'm thinking more like dad adventure.

641

But you know, you know, because

you believe in different directions.

642

Yeah,

643

yeah, I

644

think it would be really cool for Dungeon

Master's to, like, draft their games

645

ahead of time or preserve the choices

that their players made to, like,

646

replay campaigns.

647

You could have it all in a game.

648

Yeah.

649

You know, you could almost

you could actually.

650

Now that's interesting.

651

Now I'm starting to get an understanding

of what this is.

652

And I'm starting to think there's

a million ways to use something like that.

653

Yeah.

654

And you know, and I asked the AI question

because this always comes up,

655

our other co-host

656

who's not on right now, it tends to agree

with you on your opinion of AI.

657

So you're in a friendly environment

with that I and I've always an artist.

658

Yeah. And he's right.

659

Yeah.

660

And I'm always one

I like AI when it's used properly.

661

But you know, people are doing things

that are not within that environment.

662

Other conversation.

663

But you know, so well back now

664

read will game series.

665

Let's looking into a little bit

of your background and so many games

666

go ahead and talk about this writing.

667

How was that like and

what was your adventure there.

668

Oh yeah.

669

Well I was kind of a

I'll try and give the Reader's Digest

670

version here, but I was actually trying

to be a screenwriter in LA.

671

And through some like family health

issues, I had to move back to Oregon.

672

And that was kind

of devastating at the time.

673

But then I discovered this local game

studio and they're working on the Red wall

674

series, which Red wall is a beloved

series of books like If somebody.

675

It's kind of this like secret fandom,

because some people have just

676

never heard of it,

but the people who've heard of it

677

are like obsessed because it's it's

got tons of books there long.

678

They're about these anthropomorphic

forest animals who essentially act

679

as like Knights of valor.

680

And, you know, they have amazing feasts

and like, battles with bad guys.

681

And it's like, right

682

and wrong and good and evil

and they're beautiful by Brian Jaques.

683

May he rest in peace

like they just an amazing series.

684

If you haven't checked it out,

highly recommend.

685

They're great for ages

686

I would say like ten and up,

but really adults can enjoy it too.

687

They're quite thick, like

the books are quite thick.

688

So yeah.

689

So this game, this studio is the

has the right to those books for games.

690

So they have a 3D adventure game,

a few 3D adventure games

691

that I was the head writer on,

692

and the interactive fiction app,

which I was also the head writer on.

693

The very first one I wasn't there for,

but the 3D adventure

694

first one, but the second and third,

and then the app.

695

And then I think they also have created

696

like a cooking app, because food is super

big in the red wall universe.

697

Like the food descriptions are kind of

famous, the famously beautiful.

698

So they played with that a lot too.

699

But yeah, writing was a dream. It was.

700

I was just so grateful to be working with

the writers I was working with.

701

Working in a world that you love

is like a dream come true as a writer.

702

Yeah.

703

So it was really, really magical.

704

And the layoff was a bummer.

705

But as you guys probably know,

like game studios and the world of gaming,

706

you know, layoffs are kind of rampant.

Unfortunately.

707

It's just kind of part of the industry

right now.

708

Another also another interview where

it goes cycles to I mean you see that.

709

And yeah, right now is not the best time

to be getting into this industry.

710

But it is a good time

to do what you're doing and creating

711

something that's, you know, unique

and kind of fun to work with.

712

I could see where that would be. Now.

713

I totally see how Bill Snodgrass

could fit into this.

714

I wish he were on this interview with us.

715

He would be just I think it out,

I can tell you that.

716

So and then local game studios,

summer games.

717

I'm sorry.

718

Did you see that was in Newburgh, Oregon.

719

Yes. That's interesting.

720

Town for a game studio

for those that don't know,

721

is kind of a,

oh, about half hour outside of Portland.

722

Really cool, small town,

but it's more wine country

723

and it seems a little bit

like there wouldn't appear there.

724

But hey, you never know, right?

725

Yeah, yeah.

726

So where do you see this going?

727

Well, my goal is to grow

728

the community,

grow the company right now,

729

you know, it's a it's like a side project

that I'm working on.

730

I'm working with a couple other devs

and another marketer friend

731

who are working on building it up

732

and adding more features

to make the writing tool easy to use.

733

Building the community,

734

giving writers more resources

to market to their readers.

735

I really dream of this

being like a very viable indie publishing

736

path for writers to create their own work,

because you can also actually sell

737

games on Italy.

738

You can just set a price tag and people

can purchase and play for it right there.

739

You can also post it for free.

740

You don't have to sell it,

but I do really dream of it

741

being like a sustainable source of income

for writers in the future, because

742

publishing and the game industry,

you know, is just really rough

743

right now for creative writers

who want to make a living.

744

And I would love for this

to be an opportunity for them,

745

a source of income for them,

and just a community of readers

746

and writers to enjoy what we love,

which is games and game writing.

747

And then personally, yeah,

I really hope it grows into a company

748

that I can be proud of.

749

And, you know,

I think the other thing about this too,

750

that's unique from a lot of you've

talked about game engines in the past.

751

I've worked with unreal

a little bit in some of these things.

752

And one of the problems with that is

if you're just getting into that industry

753

or want to try something out, it is

extremely expensive to do it that way.

754

And it sounds like

755

this would be a great entry point

for somebody that just wants to stick

756

their toe in the water

and see if they like it,

757

and do it in a way that they can kind of

just make it work.

758

So I'm enthused.

759

I think this sounds like a really cool

760

thank you. I'm really excited about it.

761

And I will add that there are other free

platforms for interactive fiction.

762

There's twine, there's choice script,

but I will say all of them have some kind

763

of technical element that could be

a barrier of entry for writers.

764

Now some writers go to twine

and they love the technical element.

765

You can make a really detailed game

with twine if you want to get into code

766

and all of that.

767

But for writers

768

who have no interest in code

and who really just want like

769

a book with choices,

they want to write that

770

and they want it to be available

for their writers to play electronically.

771

Twine and Troy script.

772

And as far as the draft is expensive,

but even the free choices

773

are just too technical.

774

Like I tried before I was a game writer.

775

I was like,

I'm going to just break into this.

776

And I mean, I'm

the least technical person, you know?

777

So it was very hard for me.

778

So that's kind of the inspiration

behind it.

779

But yeah, it's it's free.

780

You can just go to Italy

and sign up and start writing right away.

781

You can literally publish right away.

I mean, we have content guidelines.

782

You can't publish,

you know, horrible things.

783

They're generally flexible.

784

It's it's go and make a game.

785

You can literally make a game in a day

if it's short, you know, think of a world

786

you love.

787

If it's a book already working on,

788

you can make a game set in that world

and have it just be a ten minute game.

789

You could go do that right now and be

have it be live by the end of the day.

790

Wow. Amazing.

791

I think we're going to

have lots of questions about this.

792

So I

we might be needing to have you on again.

793

What do you think, Bill?

794

I was just about to say that actually

because this is going to be

795

I know our listeners

796

well, and we've got a lot of people

that ask a lot of good questions,

797

but the interest in something like this,

because it's unique, is there.

798

And I don't know, Gretchen,

you're a published writer.

799

You are an in-depth programmer, right?

800

You wouldn't need something like this.

801

Oh, yeah. Right.

802

In-depth programing.

803

I could probably destroy your computer

with the knowledge I have

804

and not be able to fix it.

805

I relate,

806

and I and I bring that up sarcastically,

of course, because it's just it's a thing

807

that those are two very different

disciplines.

808

You know what you're saying?

809

It reminds me of a meme.

810

I saw this little girl, daddy,

what is formatting SQL and mean?

811

You know, it's like, yeah,

that's the thing that I do know how to do.

812

And that's what would ruin your computer.

813

If, you know, if.

814

That's right, that's great.

815

All right.

We'll check it out and let us know.

816

And like we were just saying

send in your questions

817

and comments on this

because this is really cool.

818

Give it a try

and let us know what you think there.

819

Is there

anything else you'd like to tell us?

820

Well, if you do use if

821

we'd love your feedback or, you know, it's

me and two devs right now working on it.

822

So it's a small but but hardy team

and we'd love your feedback.

823

If you encounter any bugs, let us know.

824

If you have future ideas, let us know!

825

There's a contact form on the page,

so you can just drop an email

826

that goes to my personal email box,

you know?

827

So I will see everyone.

828

I'd love to hear it. And on the show.

829

Of course, put your questions in.

830

I'd love to come back and answer

any questions.

831

That'd be amazing.

832

Yeah, well, that will be a given. So.

833

All right. Well, listen, Heather,

thank you so much for joining us today.

834

This is amazing.

835

And I'm just looking forward

to people trying this out.

836

I think I might even give it a go myself.

837

So again please do not co.

838

And and again thank you for being here.

839

Thank you so much for having me.

840

I really appreciate it.

841

You know, I'm

going to have to dig out my Atari

842

or Commodore and play Zork

or Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

843

It was another one like that

that I used to just love.

844

And I still have my original box,

including my microscopic face

845

space fleet, which is just an empty bag

and a cotton swab I think is in there.

846

Or cotton ball, something like that.

847

I have to go.

Look, it's been a while, okay?

848

Anyway.

849

So that being said, you know,

850

we're going to have an interview

coming up here

851

in a couple of weeks

on the summer reading.

852

And we're getting to that time of year

where it might be kind of fun

853

to pick up a book

or do something interactive

854

that can take your mind away

from the real world.

855

And to that end.

856

I think the platforms like this

are a lot of fun, but

857

I am somebody that I've written stuff,

but it's, you know, usually white papers.

858

I've never really sat down

and written a piece that somebody would

859

actually want to read. There's

860

a few people who read my white papers,

but those people are really like me.

861

So I know

both of you have worked within this.

862

So talk about let's talk

about that process a little bit.

863

And if you guys enjoy writing and kind of

what direction you've gone with it,

864

you want me to go first or either or.

865

It's your choice.

866

So pick a question.

867

All right. What is your favorite color?

868

No. So you've done a number of different

books.

869

Cyber Hawk is your latest night

School journal.

870

I know you're also writing some books

in the Star Wars universe.

871

Yeah, we talked about that many years

ago, and I loved the Star Wars universe.

872

Really, if you listen to the show

873

for more than five minutes,

we would not have gotten that impression.

874

So yeah, no, not at all.

875

And I'm trying to hold back of

any activating

876

any of the toys

that I have sitting behind me.

877

Yeah, because we probably get yelled at.

878

Yeah, yeah. Yoga.

879

No, Croco is not crying.

880

He's giggling and laughing.

881

He's he's not unhappy.

882

Someone

that has places to go make him cry.

883

Anyway, that's another topic for a whole

nother time.

884

Anyway,

885

but you've worked

in some different things.

886

I know that those are some of the books

you've written.

887

I know you've worked on other things,

so I guess my question would be is

888

what got you writing?

889

And I hear that you've been accused

of writing like Ray Bradbury.

890

Oh, that was C I started writing

when I was in middle school,

891

and I think the first, the first project

that I was having fun with is

892

it was almost like Love Boat meets,

893

some kind of shipwreck.

894

So it's Love Boat

meets Gilligan's Island, and

895

I just put my classmates into it,

you know?

896

And it was fun.

And it was nothing, really.

897

You know,

it wasn't a great novel or anything.

898

It was just fun nonsense.

899

And I realized that I liked

composing stories and planning them out.

900

And so I started writing

901

novel sized stories in high school.

902

I had manuscripts, tons of them.

903

And, yeah.

904

And I wouldn't just like, you know,

write something and then throw it away.

905

I would keep reworking it

and making it better and then reworking.

906

That's usually,

you know, beyond a class assignment.

907

I could see that.

908

And now what got you started?

909

Honestly, because I am an artist,

you know, visual artist.

910

Just something in me one day was like,

I want to write something.

911

And it started with short stories.

912

Currently,

I'm working on a much longer form piece.

913

Really?

914

Yeah, hopefully.

915

Maybe we can get it published someday.

916

I don't know, it might not be worth it.

917

Gretchen

shaking her head and smiling. Yeah.

918

Thing about this.

919

So this is news to me too.

920

All right, that's cool.

921

So, yeah, it's a fantasy story

that's actually

922

based off of a solo D&D game

that I'm playing with myself.

923

Okay. Wow. Okay, that's that's cool.

924

So long form. Are you actually, like,

trying to do a novel or.

925

Yeah. Sweet. Okay.

926

I know a good publisher anyway,

927

but, I mean, I took creative

928

writing in college, and it just kind of.

929

It's always been there on the back

burner for me.

930

Right.

931

Well, that's cool that you're going out.

932

Like I said, I'm just learning about this

now if everybody else here.

933

So that's that's cool.

934

I'm going to be looking forward

to hearing more about that.

935

So Bill, did you enjoy your

your college creative writing experience?

936

Did you like that?

937

It was a small community college.

938

So and the teacher and the other students

were very interesting.

939

I felt that it was a very good experience

to learn from.

940

I know some people

have had really rough times with creative

941

writing classes.

942

But mine was pretty positive.

943

Cool. So it was a positive experience.

944

Oh that's nice. Yeah.

945

Because I didn't feel like.

946

I didn't feel like mine was positive.

947

Oh I'm sorry,

948

but you know, you and I are different ages

and I think, think they're trying

949

to take education and ideas

from a different perspective.

950

I think they're trying to be more positive

about people's

951

ideas instead of just pooping them.

952

Feel made.

953

This joke earlier in this segment

about being told that I write like Ray

954

Bradbury.

955

Well, that was meant to me,

956

to said to me as an insult by my English

literature teacher in high school.

957

She was she

she did not like science fiction.

958

She did not like fantasy.

959

If it wasn't classic literature,

it was garbage.

960

And so and I didn't know

that much about him at that time.

961

The guy guy won awards, you know,

he was a great guy.

962

You know, I was joking because it's

so ridiculous to to say that with me.

963

Like, if somebody came up to me as a boy,

964

you do,

you know, physics like Stephen Hawking.

965

Oh, really?

966

Then it was an insult.

967

That would be

a great compliment. You know,

968

that's that's that's amazing.

969

You know, it's comparing you

with one of the greats.

970

But yeah. Yeah.

971

I mean, talked about classical lit.

972

I've been told that

I write like mid 18th century, but

973

hey my mom's just a lot of that.

974

I know what's interesting to me.

975

Real world example you talk about science

fiction is

976

there is a lot of very creative people

that work in that.

977

John and I love science

fiction reading it.

978

And, you know, a lot of us do,

but I was just in a bookstore

979

where we literally couldn't

find the section.

980

We had to ask somebody,

and it was in the back corner on the back

981

side of an aisle,

and it's like, oh, what?

982

That's what happened.

983

What happened

is, is science fiction dying?

984

What's going on?

985

You know, I know in that bookstore

maybe, or somebody just doesn't like it.

986

Maybe you're works for the bookstore.

987

Yeah.

988

There you are.

989

No, but there was lots of, like,

990

teen romance in there, and I don't think

she would have approved of that either.

991

So I was I was in a major bookstore

992

chain,

and it was like a section for manga.

993

And then they had a section

994

for young adult and stuff,

and everything was just mixed in.

995

There was no like,

this is the sci fi section.

996

And this was the it was like it was broken

down into this was just fiction

997

and you know, to like go through

and find your author or find a book.

998

And it was kind of kind of complicated.

999

Yeah, yeah.

00:48:15,659 --> 00:48:18,662

No, it's weird when they put it that way

and, you know, almost like

00:48:18,662 --> 00:48:19,696

make it more difficult.

00:48:19,696 --> 00:48:24,635

And it was clear, it sounds like maybe

we all went to the same large bookstore

00:48:24,735 --> 00:48:29,773

because we saw stuff that fiction manga

was its own section, and they had a lot.

00:48:29,873 --> 00:48:32,709

And then fiction was its own section

and they had a lot.

00:48:32,709 --> 00:48:37,714

But all the young adult had its own

section, but it wasn't mixed together.

00:48:37,714 --> 00:48:40,384

But it did have at least those categories.

00:48:40,384 --> 00:48:42,853

And then science fiction,

you had to go out in the parking lot

00:48:42,853 --> 00:48:47,557

behind the parking structure and,

you know, and go around the, the,

00:48:47,658 --> 00:48:51,962

I don't know, the Comorian

or job of the hut to get into it.

00:48:51,995 --> 00:48:53,597

And it really, really was the case.

00:48:53,597 --> 00:48:55,465

So let us know

about your writing experiences.

00:48:55,465 --> 00:48:57,134

It's our time for today. Until next week.

00:48:57,134 --> 00:49:00,137

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