In the latest episode of The Last 10%, co-host Dallas Burnett engages with leadership expert Marlene Chism in discussing the nuances of handling difficult conversations in the workplace. Together, they explore the role of intention-setting and outcomes-oriented communication in transforming leadership interactions. Marlene, who brings a wealth of knowledge from her books and her journey from an everyday employee to a well-known speaker, sheds light on the power of personal responsibility and the game-changing potential of clarity for leaders at every level.

Dallas and Marlene share invaluable insights on building a no-drama organizational culture and strategies to deal with conflict, emphasizing the overlooked inner game—even fortitude, self-awareness, and character—essential for personal growth and professional excellence. This episode serves as a guide for leaders to navigate workplace dynamics with empathy, offering practical advice on making tough conversations less daunting and more constructive.

Don't miss out on the chance to enhance your leadership skills and turn challenging dialogues into opportunities for development and improvement.

Buy Marlene's Latest Book

Find Marlene online: https://marlenechism.com/

Connect with Marlene on LinkedIn

Mentioned in this episode:

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Hey everybody.

We're talking to Marlene Chisholm today.

What an amazing woman.

She works with leaders to build drama free cultures that drive

growth and reduce costly mistakes.

She's also a great new friend of mine.

You don't want to miss.

This incredible conversation.

Welcome.

Welcome.

Welcome.

I am Dallas Burnett sitting in my 1905 Koch brothers barber chair in

thrive studios, but more importantly, we have a great guest today.

I know you guys are gonna be super excited about, she has authored

not one, not two, not three.

But four books and as an expert in anger management, difficult conversations,

working with high conflict people, and has LinkedIn courses on all these topics.

Wow.

Welcome to the show, Marlene.

Hey, thanks for having me.

,I really like your, content and the books and all the LinkedIn

courses that you have inside just wanted to, we were so excited to get you on the

show today to talk because people that are listening to the show obviously are having

to have these difficult conversations, and having to have conflict and deal

with this conflict at work all the time.

So I think you're very, you're in a great space.

And so we're excited.

Okay.

But.

Tell us first, how does, how did Marlene get to be this speaker,

consultant, author of all these books?

Where, what, how, what's your journey like?

Wow.

You know, I was a worker bee for 21 years.

And so I got a lot of experience on those front lines and their workplaces in

some ways have changed since that time.

But they're also very alike in certain ways in that.

There can be pockets of toxicity and cultures due to the management,

due to the frontline leaders, even that are difficult to see if you

haven't been at that frontline level.

And so I just got to see that.

And I wanted something more.

I'd been there 21 years.

And I thought.

what is it I would like to do?

And I went on this journey and I call that journey, the three life tragedies.

And the first tragedy is, you want something more, but

you don't know what it is.

The second one is, you know what it is, but you don't think it's possible.

And the third one is, you know what it is, you think it's possible, but

now you have to be willing to jump.

And so what I did was once I started thinking it was possible, I came to

what I call that fulcrum point of change where you have to make a decision

and I really still wasn't clear, even though a lot of what I work with now is

clarity and I help leaders with their clarity, but the clarity I had was this.

I'm not sure what I want and not even sure I can do what I think I want,

but what I do know is this isn't it.

And that's my decision making point to jump off, finish up my master's degree.

My master's degree was in, the capstone was drama in the workplace

hampers productivity, the effect of relationships on the bottom line.

And I just started seeing how, Health issues happen from toxicity,

absenteeism, the keeping of employees, the talent management, everything has

to do with drama in the workplace.

And I just started seeing how all the dots connected and that began my journey and

my journey started out as professional speaking, and then it evolved over time.

Oh my goodness.

So what was the hardest part about making the jump from, you said, worker

B to professional speaker, and you've got a master's in between all that.

So when you're in your journey, when you said, defining what it is

and then is it possible and then taking the jump for you, what was

that hardest part of that process?

I think that we're either, pulled by pleasure pushed by pain.

So I guess for both of those things for me is that it was pain.

I saw in my mind's eye and I was around 40, but.

Probably started this journey of wanting something more.

It lasted for five years, probably from 35 to 40.

I think that's pretty common.

People go through a midlife pre midlife crisis of knowing that,

wow, the good fairy is not coming.

The slippers not going to fit.

The great pumpkin isn't going to arrive.

And so you, and so I think it was this pain.

And I say that I saw a big retirement cake coming my way at the age of 65 or 70.

And I thought to myself, if I don't choose something, That's going to be

my reality because there's not going to be something magical just occur.

I have to take personal responsibility and that's in it of my work

is personal responsibility.

But that fear of not having explored or even failed was worse than the thought

of failing or not knowing what I want.

And so I just couldn't imagine that.

Was that reality?

And I'm 65 now, so I like I've had that journey of knowing that if I wouldn't

have taken that leap, I would be receiving my watch and a free chicken dinner and

an extra 15 minute break and I'd have a nice 401k and I could then hire and

still not know any more than I knew.

And that was going to be my reality if I didn't choose.

Wow, man, that's awesome.

I think that's fantastic.

I love your, of your point about, I love your point about how the wake up

call was accepting the responsibility for creating the new path and it

wasn't like you blamed where you were, it wasn't like you were, you said,

I'm going to get a retirement cake.

You're not like this company I'm with is terrible.

They're bad people for giving me a retirement kit.

You're saying, nah, it's just, it's not for me.

It's not what I want.

And so I think that's really healthy.

And, you know, it's interesting because I understood

this on some level that it's not a powerful place to be when you're

blaming the place that's paying you and providing your living to make them

the bad guy, because it's your choice.

You don't have to work there.

There are other choices.

And I often say that the 1st, part of responsibility is

the recognition of choice.

what I tried to do, and I couldn't see my choices is to say, Even though

I don't know what's out there, even though I don't know what other people

do and how they've built careers and how I was asleep at the wheel for

these years, what I do know is that they do reimburse for college credits.

So here's a choice I can take my next step could be to take

1 class and see what I think.

I do know that they are helping me to have a home that I'm paying for.

I do know that they're providing me opportunities to put money in 401k.

Even if I don't understand that, they are providing things that

I don't necessarily understand.

So I'll take the choices I know, and from that you build more choices.

But if you're constantly the victim where, they're a terrible place to

work, and you're just a cog in a wheel, and all that is probably true as well.

But, it goes along with what I learned in narrative coaching.

that your story is the source of your suffering.

So when you're telling yourself negative things about people in your life or your

circumstances, it's not that there's not facts around that, but the narrative

that you have about yourself, about other people and about circumstances are

going to either get you out of prison or, set you free or keep you in prison.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's really good.

I love that your story is a source of your sufferings.

I think that is so true.

Oh, that is so true.

And, I couldn't agree more.

So let's talk about this.

. You've actually just come out recently with, your latest

book is conflict to courage.

What was something that inspired you or was there a kind of an aha moment

or an inspiration behind this book?

Yes, but yes, there was, I had been doing some

work on difficult conversations.

I had been hired by a large franchise organization to train their franchisees

so that they could be better leaders and learn how to have difficult conversations.

and I, the reason that had happened is because I started seeing patterns

in the workplace that every big problem that emerged could be

traced back to a conversation that should have happened, but did not.

So I did for 12 or 13 years, I was part of this leadership academy.

That one little part I developed and delivered several times a year.

And then when COVID hit, it was really interesting because I thought, my

business might just come to an end and.

In a way, there was a freedom with that, because I thought, if that

happens, I have an excuse coven happen.

I, you know, I didn't really be any more successful than

I was because coven happened.

And I have to just I've learned about releasing resistance.

So I'm just going to accept that.

And in that releasing finally, after that wasn't a problem if that happened.

I thought, life is going to go on.

I truly believe that.

And everybody else is freaking out.

I've already had my freak out.

And that was when I left my factory job, right?

I'm not going to freak out now.

I know what that feels like.

You just need to grab ahold of yourself.

So I thought maybe how I could be productive is to think, and this was

magical thinking, but it worked for me.

I thought the good fairy is going to come along and someone's

going to offer me a book deal.

I don't know how it's going to happen, but I think it's going to happen.

And so I started writing.

So I started writing a proposal for difficult conversations and fast

forward in two months or so, I got an outreach by someone that was my

first acquisitions person at LinkedIn, who was now an editor, a publisher

at a British, publishing house.

She said, are you working on anything?

And I said, I am, but it's really crappy.

I said, I'm glad to send it over.

Cause you don't normally do that.

Normally it's polished.

It's perfect.

You don't have those kinds of conversations, but it's.

Open.

She's trying to do business too.

So I said, I can send it.

Just ignore all the typos and it's not that organized, but

I'm glad to show it to you.

She's I love this.

I love this.

So we started talking and she said, the problem is we just published

1 on difficult conversations.

They would come out too close together.

Would you mind doing something on conflict?

And I thought I've always been good at when something's really close to what I

teach to expanding my knowledge and doing the research and making distinctions.

And I said, sure.

The bottom line is I rewrote it three times and it didn't get accepted.

And it was devastating at the time because it ruined my story, my narrative.

This is just going to be the magic fairy.

And he said, this is really weird.

She said, I've only had two books that I've worked that hard on myself.

Cause they have to do work too, to try to pitch it and polish it.

And she said, this is only the second one that hasn't published.

She said, I'm devastated too, but they don't like it.

They think it's too, your book is too much, too motivational,

too personal development.

It's not, it's in other words, it's not dry enough and it's not academic

Oh my gosh.

I thought

that's because I'm not going to be who I'm not.

I am.

I'm going to be happy.

I'm not even going to take 1 moment of sadness and I just decided that

and I said, this is unheard of too.

I said, could you introduce me to a different publisher?

Because usually they don't do that.

And she said, I will.

She said, I will.

And that was, I got Barrett Kohler and they published it.

I told them, I said, I'll rewrite it 1 time, but I'm like, at the

certain age, this was pretty, Yeah.

entitled of me in a certain way, and I might be different even

two years later, but I said, I'm only willing to rewrite it once.

Because if we're not clicking, if there's drama in the boat, there's going to

be drama on the island, and I'm just not going to be different than I am.

Either you like where I'm coming from or you don't, and it's okay if you don't.

It's just dating.

Don't waste time if the second date is horrible.

You know what I mean?

And so I just decided that, and he said, I've never heard an author

talk to a publisher like that.

And I said, I'm just saving time.

It's no means of disrespect.

No reason to appease or pretend or avoid.

Let's just tell the truth that we're not a fit and okay, and it worked.

Wow, man, that's incredible.

So you'd already started riding it when you go on this rollercoaster

ride, you think this is the, this is my ticket, this is my magical fairy.

And then it doesn't have, but you keep plugging away.

I love the boldness that you have.

And I think it speaks to, conflict and courage.

cause even in this situation, you kind of were demonstrating that in the sense

that you're having this conversation with this person that's pitching your

book and it's I don't understand.

It's not going well.

Even though your conflict with that person's not, you're really having

conflict with the publisher cause they weren't publishing the book.

, but , took a lot of courage for you to tell the person, Hey,

I know this is not the norm.

I know this is not what we normally see, but.

I need you to get me out of this game.

Put me in a different game.

Give me another publisher.

And because of that, it worked out.

So I think that's really cool.

can you tell us some, I would love to know when we talk about conflict, what

is some of the most difficult conflicts that you've seen in working with teams in

leaders, because 10 percent are leading teams, they are leading organizations.

I'm just leading families.

But what, when you think about conflicts, what's some of the most difficult

conflicts to navigate in your opinion?

Love that question because here's a tenet of my work is

that conflict itself is not the problem.

We all think it's a problem.

Then we've got the motivational speakers that says that helps you grow.

Y'all didn't embrace the island.

I'm not that person.

I don't like it.

I don't want to embrace it.

Like I know it to pretend it does.

My saying, though, is that conflict itself is not the problem, mismanagement

is the problem, because the more complex our world gets, and the more

divided we get politically and so on, conflict is going to be there,

but it itself is not the problem.

The problem is how we manage or mismanage it.

What the 1st way that we mismanage conflict is in the way we define it.

So we think of it as, oh, they're going to, I'm going to lose my favor

with them, or they're going to yell.

We're going to scream.

I don't like them.

They're hard to get along.

We do all that kind of stuff.

We get in the way with all these stories and narratives.

If you can stop for a moment, say, okay, what is conflict?

it's opposing drives, desires, and demands.

So if you think of two arrows going in opposite directions, and you say,

okay, I feel this anger toward them, or this fear toward them, but let

me take a step back and say, what it's opposing drives, desires, and

demands, just like with my publisher.

She's not my enemy.

She has to work with her people that's in charge of her.

And there's an opposing drive that they have that I can't possibly understand.

And I don't need to understand it because they're the decision

maker and they said, no.

So it's an opposing drive, desire, demand.

If they're not willing to further the conversation, they have a right.

As the leader to decide, and I have a right as someone that may or may not want

to work with them to decide differently.

So if it's opposing drives, desires and demands, and you really believe

that it makes you curious, because even if you don't win, you go,

this may not be my right publisher, but what drive did they have?

Because now you've got new Intel for the future.

You're not like freaking out when they were terrible.

They only wanted to, and so you say, it was a different drive and I wasn't.

In that direction, because they already had one that was

on difficult conversations.

They wanted mine to be more academic and more like what I would call

dry, not my type of writing.

And so it's not going to work out anyway, because they're not open to any way.

And I don't want to change.

So there we are.

so opposing drives, desires and demands.

And so once that's the 1st mismanagement, then the, and I

know I'm talking generally here.

I'm glad to get into some specifics if you want that.

But once you understand the foundation of it, it becomes pretty easy.

And so the ways that I see managers mismanaged conflict is

what I call the 3 a's, which is avoiding appeasing and aggression.

And avoiders know that they avoid.

They're, they will say things like, I hate conflict.

I try my best.

I just, I put things off if I need to have a conversation.

I know that I avoid and I'm so scared to learn the skills

because it just feels bad.

They know that.

The other two don't know that they avoid, like appeasers.

They just view themselves as I'm just congenial.

I'm just, I like people.

I'm a people person.

And what they do is they say things like, love your idea.

I love it.

Love you.

And they don't love it.

And they're not going to go tell the boss what this person thought, because

they're just playing both sides of it.

I love you.

Gotcha.

It's great.

Glad you engaged, but like glad you engaged.

However, the reason this won't work is this.

And I want you to be educated on that because I love your engagement.

However, okay.

This tells me you need to learn more about business operations.

And I'm glad to train you on that.

that's a different conversation.

Then you're engaging, love it on the agenda for next quarter.

So those are the appeasers.

They tell people let's do lunch, like it, gotcha.

We'll put it on the calendar and they don't.

And then you're wondering, they're so nice.

How could they do that?

Oh, they're just forgetful.

Cause they're so nice.

There's really this price to being nice because being nice Is in favor

of honesty and truth and elevation.

That's the, that's another kind of avoiding.

And those people do not know they avoid, aggression.

People that are very aggressive also do not know they avoid.

And I had a very aggressive boss when I worked in the factory, but aggressive

people feel, and this is so interesting on surveys, they always give themselves

nines and tens on how effective they are at difficult conversations.

What that really means is I'm going to bully my way to you acquiescing to me.

And I feel great about it because I won and I, this is

how the cow eats the cabbage.

I will tell you what to do and you're going to do it.

And people know who's the boss, the buck stops here.

But the truth is people don't like those kinds of leaders.

They don't feel like they got their back.

There's no intimacy.

There's no real conversation.

We already know what that boss is going to say.

I didn't ask you to work here.

That's just the way it is.

And if you don't like it, find yourself another place to work while

that person's beating their chest going, God, I'm so good at this.

They're terrible.

So they don't know they avoid personal growth, development, critical thinking.

They're avoiding those things in favor of just getting something done to look good.

So it's all avoiding.

And that is how a conflict is mismanaged.

And I see it all the way from the top to the front line.

so you said the three A's avoiding appealing aggressive,

but really avoiding is undergirds.

All of those is just

whether or not you're actually

aware, aware if you're avoiding or not, so if you are.

, let's say one of our listeners is, an aggressive, they, or maybe they were

listening just now and they went, Oh my gosh, I thought I was the one

that handled those conversations.

She just nailed me right between the eyes when she said that, what is

someone that lacks awareness, whether it's appeasing or aggressive, how

can they combat their, their, un, unawareness of the, of how they, avoid

I think they'll want to learn, they'll say, okay,

there's, what do I need to learn?

First of all, it'll be like, it'll be, it'll hurt at first.

There's two sayings.

The truth will hurt or the truth will set you free.

If it hurts, then you have an ego where you need to be important, you

need to be right, and you're going to appease because you're just a nice

person on the disc, you're an S, and if you're rude and aggressive, you're

a D on the disc, and you need to be right, because that's just the way you

are, and you're just being authentic.

you can either make excuses, or you can make growth happen, right?

if you want to grow, you're going to, what you're going to bump up

against, and this is the shortcut.

There's two things you probably need to look at your inner

game and your outer game.

So your outer game is the skills development.

And most organizations, if they offer development to the mid and frontline,

which they don't very often, but if they do, it's something like, I love

LinkedIn cause I have courses there.

It's something like that where it's all digital or it's some

sort of a course that, someone got their certification from.

5 dysfunctions of the team and they have a trainer come in and

it's pretty surface in my opinion.

And I love those authors and so on too, but it's not coaching and it's not

real deep self awareness and practice.

It's just an idea or an understanding of it intellectually, which only

gets you so far unless you're a real self development person.

the idea is going to be well, I think I need skills development

and skills is part of the equation.

The other part of the equation, though, is what I call the inner game.

And that's your fortitude, your character, your self awareness, the

feeling of fear when you have to have that conversation and you do it anyway,

and you get coaching and mentoring.

That's an expansiveness internally.

So that's inner growth and very few people focus on inner growth.

They focus on skills and what they don't realize is they focus on skills

for the purpose of manipulating and changing someone else,

not

for the purpose of you being a better person and learning to radically listen,

saying something just the right way.

So it worked.

They did it.

And I teach those skills, but there's always underneath it is the right

intention, because without that, people feel it all the way to the bank and back.

Wow.

That is such an amazing statement.

I love that you correlated the outer game and when someone is pushing you into that,

or you're doing that a lot of times it's to manipulate or change someone else, I

think that is a natural because it's easy.

It's easy to see.

It's easy to address.

It's easy to go to link, like you said, LinkedIn hit the

course, get this, check this

I got my

certification!

I

I've got the certification.

I could be the worst at whatever that is, but I've got the certification

and I think that's so true.

And I love how you talked about that from a mindset standpoint,

if I can get you to think well, then the rest will fall in place.

You can learn what you need to learn, but if I can get you to think well

in alignment, that's really good.

So if someone was working and had either, they were leading a team or coaching

someone and the person that they were coaching was aggressive or appeasing.

What advice would you give a leader that's trying to deal with employees

on their team that are just really, they, they create a lot of conflict.

, Marlene Chism: what you're going to hear when you have to work with someone

that's very defensive or aggressive, you want to avoid that conversation because

there's a saying I already know what they're going to say they're going to

get defensive and they're going to say something to derail the conversation.

They're going to say, look, that's not fair.

Or I'm feeling harassed, or you ought to hear what other people are saying

about your leadership because what they're trying to do, I say, they're

the fishermen and you're the carp and they throw a big, juicy worm on there.

And you're going to bite that worm and get hooked into this different conversation.

So you have to be aware of these.

they're they're not intentional.

People aren't that manipulative to where they're intending.

I'm going to say this.

They don't do that.

It just happens because we human beings defend ourselves when we feel threatened.

The primal brain goes into.

Revival mode in the front prefrontal cortex shuts down.

So it's not like someone plans it.

It's just what people do.

So you can't be real psychological about all this and say, Oh, they planned that.

Now that's just what they do.

So you've got to be ready that it's going to happen.

And then you're going to hear something like, look, I'm just being authentic.

do you want me to be fake?

I'm just a straight shooter.

They're going to say something like that.

So you're going to listen and you're going to say, here's a question.

is that who you want to be?

Like, because really, it doesn't matter.

I can be authentic to all parts of myself.

I can be the three year old that's disappointed and throws a fit and pouts

and doesn't talk to you for two days.

I can be authentic.

I'm just being authentic.

Or I can say, yeah, that's what I feel like doing, that there's a part of me

that wants to grow, so I'm going to take a moment, ask for a boundary of

time, and then we're going to do it.

Get back in the conversation.

I can be authentic to that.

And that's still authentic.

Even though I feel angry, even though I feel discounted, it's

still authentic because my bigger authenticity is I want to grow.

So what you want to do is inspire people to look at themselves

and to say, is this who you are?

Is this who you want to be?

This is the business.

This is what this is costing our business when you do X, Y, and Z.

So when I'm teaching conversations about difficult.

when I'm teaching my process for difficult conversations, there's

actually a process you work through before you even have the conversation.

But what you want to be able to do is speak to the observable behavior, not

to your perception of what's going on.

Look, you're just trying to intimidate everybody.

Look, you just think that you're all that in a bag of chips, and

you're trying to intimidate.

nope, that's just your story about it.

But you could say, Ralph, I noticed last week in the meeting, you

interrupted Susan three times and then when John brought up another point,

you rolled your eyes and you crossed your arms and everybody shut down.

Not anyone participated after that.

Did you recognize that?

I was just being authentic.

I understand, but here's the question.

Are you committed to others engaging and hearing other points of view?

Because that's what I need.

And this is how this is affecting our team.

Yeah.

if I say that this is a behavior, I'm not judging

you and your character, but I'm saying this is what you do.

This is how this is affecting our team.

Walk me through what's going on for you when you do that.

Well, I just don't think people should be so stupid.

I just think they ought to get it and do their homework, whatever and say, okay,

so when I, when you say that, that sounds to me, like, there's a lot of persecution

and judgment of your team members.

And this is also a problem with how we interact with each other.

Are you hearing that?

If I called you stupid, how would you respond to that?

Well, I mean, I don't know.

I'm just, it's just how I talk.

You're going to get.

I've had.

It's so funny.

It's so close to conversations that I've had with people in the past.

It's just fascinating.

It's awesome.

Oh, that's so good.

so you start from a higher place of what you do is you

clear your own energy and you don't get triggered and you know that they're going

to try to trigger you because that's what people do when they shut down.

You would do it too.

If it was you and you're being called out on something that you weren't aware of.

So just be fair about that, but clean your own energy and see them in the

fullness of who they could be with some development, because when you envision

that person to be, Whether it's a better leader and better team player,

because they obviously have some skills and talents they bring to the table.

So you can always say, here is the vision.

I have it.

You said you wanted to be the supervisor.

You said that.

Do you still want that?

Ralph?

Well, I do.

And I think I'm a great leader.

I'm a great I do.

I do the best of anyone here.

Of course you do.

you're a performer.

However, the skills of being a leader are different than being a worker.

And so I want to explain that to you.

because this is how you'll have to shape yourself and work on your inner game.

If you want to do that, and so once they, once it makes sense to them, because

a lot of people, especially, and I was on those factory floors, and I thought

it was all about just if you're a good worker, you're good at everything else.

That's not how it is.

Honestly, there's things that I do with higher level leaders

that I cannot do myself.

And I always say, just consider me the bald man, telling Nadia to

point her toe on the balance beam.

You're Nadia, I'm the bald guy, and I couldn't do it this math, but I can

tell you when your toes not pointed.

that's so good.

That's so good.

Oh, that's really great.

I love how you've positioned that.

If you're leading a team, there's so many things that you said that

resonated with me and a great deal.

Number one.

Where you started that all was if you're leading someone who is aggressive

or even appeasing, they're either creating conflict or doing things

or they're not handling it well.

The first thing that you led with was you want to inspire.

Those people, you want to inspire.

It's going to aggravate us because we're like, this is a thorn in

my side, if they would just do this we'd be so much better.

So you're already approaching this from a real, negative energy.

Like you said, I loved how you also said you got to clean your own energy first.

you do.

and you got to do it, and that amazing.

So when I come to this person as a leader, if I sit down across from the person

and I'm already in a position where I'm frustrated at them already, then

it's just, it's going to go downhill.

I can't have this, conversation and keep it level because as soon as they come

back at me with something not relevant or out of it, I'm just going to boom.

Yeah.

It's going, it's off.

It's ready.

Yeah.

We're going to go into the kill.

Yeah.

We're going to go

into the kill.

And I often say, there's a couple of things you have to do.

You have to get yourself centered first, but you have, I call

it standing on the bridge.

And I got that from an author, it might have been Gary Zukoff, I can't remember,

but, and I hate to not give attribution, but the way that the language that I use,

I call it the language of the island.

we're in a boat, we're all on the boat, we're trying to get to the island.

as a team, it's all of us trying to row together, but if people start

beating each other with the oars.

Then, and there's a leak in the boat.

We, as the leader have to recognize that's happening.

Otherwise, we're sitting there blaming the raging river.

What you've got to do is stand up on the bridge and watch the beating and watch

the draining and watch the island because then you can see that from perspective,

you're not in there helping down the water yourself, trying to survive.

This is what's happening and you can even say, look, we're beating

each other with the oars here.

Are we going?

Are we rolling in the right direction?

and the bully is going to say, look, I'm the 1 that's the best rower.

So, yeah, I had to bop him over the head because they were being stupid.

So, you know, you're like, yeah, but that's not the way we work as a team.

Right?

And you have to start to see.

I say there's three positions in the boat.

The top leader wants, they want to get to the treasure chest on the island.

the manager wants everybody to row harder and faster and the rower just

wants a better seat cushion on the boat.

So we all want something different.

And you have to stand on the bridge and say, are we talking about seat

cushion, rowing or island right now?

What are we talking about?

Wow.

I love that standing on the bridge.

Yeah.

And I think that's exactly right.

and I think that helps because you're when you're talking about leading others.

If you can separate yourself just a short distance, it helps you

get so much more perspective.

Like you said, and I think that's a great visual of that.

And I think too, it helps you see the event with more.

Empathy and more understanding so that you can approach it.

I love how you narrowed down the conflict to a behavior instead of a person.

And I think that also comes with that perspective.

If I'm looking, if I'm feeling like I'm looking at it from the bridge,

then I'm not feeling like I'm getting slapped in the face with these oars.

It's just, it just feels different to me.

So then I can approach those conversations with more maturity and

more level headedness and more empathy.

And I think that's so good and less likely to get triggered.

So I think that's really good.

I think that's great advice for the leaders out there and going

into, difficult conversations and managing sometimes difficult people.

Cause again, I think it goes back to, we really want to change people and grow

them, we have to give them something that they feel like they're capable of

changing and doing, it's If you give me something, if you made the comment,

the bald guy telling the point, if you said to that guy, no, you've got

to get up on the balance beam, point your toe, that's something that's

so far out of his, he can't do it.

He can't grasp that.

But if, when you, like you said earlier, when you relate it to behavior.

It's saying, Hey, look, you crossed your arms and lean

back and everybody disengaged.

Oh, if you don't cross your arms and don't lean back, then

everybody will stay engaged.

that's something I can manage.

Oh, I can do that or not do that.

And I think that's just a real simple, it's a fundamental, building block

of this, but I think you're very wise in, in, in giving that advice.

what's fun to this is the really this shocks leaders because I

say, there's a couple of ways to do this.

Let's say that you're having a meeting and you've got, there's always, I

don't know if you've ever experienced this, but in every corporate situation,

whether it's manufacturing, whether it's whatever it is, there's always the 1

spokesperson that and I told them in the meeting and everybody's yeah, you told

that boss, when he was speaking, what about the firing that happened last week?

I thought we were all about.

Letting people be themselves, you wouldn't let him wear Yeah, that's right.

They're incongruent, and but leaders don't know how to handle that whenever

they're like, frontline or mid and even sometimes top leaders don't

either, but they don't know what to do with that spokesperson, you've got

to set expectations before a meeting.

We're not going to be talking about the issue that happened 3 weeks ago.

And if we do, that's going to be tabled.

you have to do that.

But if you don't, and someone starts spouting off and crossing there,

I always just use the example of crossing their arms and rolling their

eyes and letting out a big sigh.

Right.

You got a couple of choices.

You can go, Hey, Cliff, did you disagree with, I noticed that you just crossed

your arms and you rolled your eyes.

Now you got to be careful because they might go off on a rail, but

they, but usually it surprises people for you to say it in the moment of

what they did not don't react to the.

Behavior the meta message don't go.

Okay.

Look, we're not going to have like you don't get triggered I noticed

that you it's very linear and logical and then they're going to go.

Oh, no.

No, Even if someone says something real sarcastic, was that supposed

to hurt my feelings that sounded like that was a dig Oh my god.

no.

No, you're just too sensitive.

They're always going to throw it back on you I was just cold and you're too

sensitive and so So, so what you do is that what objection dies on agreement.

So you go, I could be, but here's what I need from you.

You don't go into the argument of, no, I'm not.

That was what you were doing.

I know what you intended.

I'm not, I wasn't born yesterday.

Now you're in a fight.

Now you're in the island called verbal ping pong.

You don't go there.

You say, I could be, I can see why you might think that, but

this is what I'm needing from you.

had when I was at the frontline worker and I had these conversations

with my boss from the lowest level.

That's what gave me the courage to do it now.

But I remember saying to him, you seem really unapproachable.

And I picked up that buzzword because that was the big word they were

teaching managers to be approachable.

someone got their master's degree.

And they were teaching people need to be approachable.

This is the new thing.

This is the new five, five ways you become a person.

So we pick up on that right front lines.

We know what the latest buzzword is quality circles and,

black belt this and whatever.

So we know those things.

So I said, when you just seem really unapproachable when when you

act like this, when you say these things, and he says to me, Okay.

No one can make you feel anything without he was quoting Eleanor Roosevelt.

No one can make you feel anything without your approval.

And I said, perhaps that's true.

But now that I've told you, if you keep doing it, you do it with knowledge.

Touche!

Ahahahaha!

Ahahaha!

He never, he never did it again because I called him out.

I need you to say you can justify it all day long.

You can quote Eleanor Roosevelt.

You can open up the Holy Bible, whatever you need to do.

But I'm telling you that this bothers me and you continue to do it, which tells

me you do it knowing it bothers me.

And if I don't say anything, you can go, just your perception and

no one can make you feel anything.

Yes, no, I think that's so true.

And it's probably he's had that quote from Eleanor Roosevelt for quite some time.

I'm sure he used it, ongoingly.

And a lot of people walked away just scratching their heads.

what's he talking about?

I guess it is right.

do I need to give him permission?

And then you just pinged him right between the eyes.

why you don't really argue with their reasoning.

You just go that's how they reason, right?

And that's how they justify bad behavior.

you just say, that could be, or, hey, you're just a, you're just a

female and women are sensitive, I get that, that's probably right.

Could be a hormonal day for me, but here's the thing.

This is what I mean.

love that.

I love that.

That is so good.

Oh, you said it.

Objection dies with agreement.

that's the first time I've ever heard that and I love it.

And that's

that was not my quote either.

I think that person was Marilyn I think that's the right name, and it was an

old sales book back in the 50s and 60s.

They had some great books back then, like even Leading with Intimidation.

There's all kinds of great titles to books, when you first read it, you're

like, that sounds terrible, but it was really good what they taught.

And these are I would say, on the border of manipulation.

They're the outer game, it's the outer game that you have in your back pocket.

Yes.

you do have to use it sparingly.

Otherwise, you're just a sarcastic person that's memorized a bunch of one liners

and I enjoy those because they're fun, but your real intention, like, I'm sarcastic.

That's something I had to work on,

Yeah, no, you want to use them like a surgeon and a scalpel.

It's very like, you know, exactly when and how to apply it.

And if not, you're going to bludgeon someone with something that's

just not going to work out well.

So I agree, but I do think that principle is so fascinating because even if you

don't have the one line, come back the idea that, objection dies with agreement

is a, it's a principle like, because there is no objection if there's an agreement.

So let's figure this out and we can work together on, on that idea.

And so

even if someone says,

something.

even if someone says, that's not fair.

To be able, you don't throw back.

Well, no one ever said it was fair.

you don't like, you don't just go, that can be true.

There, there is a lot of things and I get that you perceive that and

you can say, walk me through why you see it that way you could do that

or you can say, I do understand.

And unfortunately, I still have to implement.

Regardless of what different people, this is coming from above

and I have to support that and I do support it because of my role.

I understand your role.

And so we have to find a way to come together.

Are you willing to explore that?

so there's ways to still have the objections down

agreement and not be sarcastic.

I've been showcasing today.

Those are just kind of things to do.

But, really, it's coming from a philosophy.

Like you said, if you've got a hammer, everything's a nail, I have lots of

hammers and I used to use those all the time and my growth was to work

on not doing things that come easy to me, which is to do the one liners and

the sarcasm and those are easy for me.

it's conceding a small point to win the war.

You've expressed a problem and he's putting this.

You know, ridiculous saying that from quote from Eleanor on it and

what you're saying is, okay fine I'll I just won't argue that point.

i'll give it to you, but then you're going back You're just pulling it back

to the thing that's most important.

And I think about when you're dealing with conflict, I think that's really

trying to stay on the root of the issue and addressing that and not

getting it off on all these tangents.

Cause I think as team leaders, as business owners, when we engage in these

conversations, we're really trying to.

There's so much emotion going if even if whether we're in it or

whether we're on the bridge, there's so much motion going that it's

just really easy for things to go.

Cause people are deflecting and they're not wanting to take this.

They're throwing off on that and they're angry about this.

And then all these things come out.

So we've got all these deflections going on, but the real reason that

we're coming together is to solve this.

And sometimes it

gets that.

So I love

that.

You know, let's agree on all this other stuff for now, and

focus on what really matters.

Yeah, that's how avoiding the distraction and setting like part of

the I call performance coaching model.

I also call it the blueprint for difficult conversations.

But since there's so much coaching in it.

I'm really referring to it as the performance coaching model

and the very beginning of a difficult conversation after you've

assessed and done your inner work.

And you've looked at the, you looked at the behaviors and who you're

talking to and what's going on.

There's a method for that.

Once you've got that done.

And once you do it 2 or 3 times, you don't need to keep doing it

that hard every time because it becomes a part of how you think.

But the 1st thing you do is you set the intention.

let's say someone's sales numbers are terrible.

You don't say.

Okay, my intention for this meeting is to talk about why your sales suck.

know, we don't do that.

We say, look, my intention for this meeting is to help is to find ways to

help you elevate your sales because we're speaking to the outcome from a

positive perspective, not to the sharp.

It's between the island and the boat.

We're not speaking about the problem.

We're speaking about the outcome.

when I said, I'd love to meet with you today for the purpose of talking

about elevating our team, our teamwork and what I've observed is that when

there's a couple of people that when they speak, you either interrupt

or say something very sarcastic.

For example, the other day, that now what I want you to understand that I'm here.

To support you to help you grow what I don't want is you to think you're the only

one or that I'm just making you the bad guy, but this is how this is affecting

the team and then that's how you lay out the first part of the conversation.

then, when you say, so walk me through what's going on for you

when this happens, and they said, I just don't think it's fair that

let me tell you what I understand.

It's not fair.

But the question was walk me through.

What provokes you to, I think you're just picking on me.

And you're just making this a big deal when it's really not that.

No, I understand.

You think it, but I'm asking you a really serious question.

Walk me through.

You see what I'm saying?

Because you are going back to the question that you've asked and

you're not going out here going, I don't care if you think it's fair.

I don't think it's fair that you're beating people up.

Now you're, it's not going to get you anywhere.

Oh, that's so true.

And I, and I don't know, I just think that's a, this is a fantastic approach.

And I think that, when we're engaging in those difficult conversations, we're,

I think, especially for people who are.

Obviously are uncomfortable going into it.

If you have a leader, like we talked about avoiding earlier and you're like,

Oh, I really am not looking forward to having this difficult conversation.

I think one thing that you're saying that should be very encouraging to

everybody listening Is that we don't have to make it more difficult than it is.

If we just focus on behavior and outcome, because those are things that

are within our control or at least our intention, and so I can share that

behavior and I can say, it's our intent.

To have this outcome.

Is that your intent?

It is.

Okay.

This is how the behavior doesn't equal this outcome.

And now it's a plus B equals C conversation and everybody can do

algebra and that doesn't seem very intimidating, but having all these

motions really do, and so I think, man, I think it's, I love that approach.

I love it.

I love

It's and it's really a skill.

it takes a little bit to learn.

And if you're like, oh, I can't take it.

This takes a long should it take this long to learn?

Yeah, it does.

Because you reprogramming yourself.

But once you learn it, it's like sharpening the saw and

then each skill stands alone.

So that the performance, Coaching model that I created was based on this

framework that you've either inherited a problem that you let go on for too

long after you inherited it, or you never approached it in the 1st place.

therefore, it's a.

It's a difficult place to start because you were part of the problem.

Once you actually do this longer conversation and we're back on the same

page and we set up another meeting for accountability and there's certain skills

or certain processes or certain ways that we need to check in once you've

done that and your real purpose was to elevate them or to get to the truth of

the matter, which the truth may they've not liked the job for a long time.

And they both you both realize it's not the right fit, which is fine.

Because you're leaving as far as you can go.

Friends, but let's say they do have the skills and aptitude.

They just needed a course correction.

They needed some attention.

You're back on track with their accountability in the future.

It's not a long run.

My purpose for this.

It's not like that anymore.

It's hey, I noticed that you or it's hey, what I want.

But I don't want, it's just you're using the skills over and over to

get right to the point versus come to the office today at two o'clock

my intention for this conversation.

Like you're not doing that every time.

You're not doing that because you won't.

You don't have time for

no, you don't have time for that.

Yeah, no, I love that.

That's really good.

So I have a question.

if someone is in the avoiding, we've talked about the aggressive and

the P, aggressive and appeasing, but if someone is in the avoiding.

Camp and as it relates to conflict and difficult conversations, what is, what

are things that people can do to move to a place of courage to having courage?

it speaks to your title, but if I want to move from being a person

who's like total avoidance to a person that has courage and conflict, how,

what's that process look like for me?

You have to be willing to be uncomfortable.

That's really the bottom line.

And be uncomfortable just a little at a time until you expand.

I call it expanding your conflict capacity.

if you're committed to comfort.

Then you're never going to get it.

And I understand that people have been traumatized and people have programming.

I really do.

And I'm not a psychologist.

unless it's been severe trauma, which, if it is, you probably

wouldn't be in a leadership position.

Anyway, but we've all had some things that happened to us and

programming that makes us scared.

the bottom line is, you don't like how it feels and You're in resistance.

I want to share something about resistance because I think

this will be real important.

So the reason people avoid mostly is not due to skills.

If it is, if you get the skills and you're still avoiding, the skills can

take off, it could shave off four or five points of stress because you feel

confident and you've got a pattern and a way to start and you might mess

up, but you're excited to use it.

If you've practiced and you know the theory, And you're still really

scared to death just to even correct one thing or to make one criticism.

It's because of how you're thinking for some, you're thinking that

you're hurting someone's feelings versus helping them improve.

It's like staying in a marriage and pretending you're happy because you

don't want to hurt their feelings.

But the truth is you don't have a real relationship.

So you've got to want.

For their betterment and your betterment more than you want to

be comfortable and so when you look at it from that perspective, you

say, comfort's not a requirement.

And so when we talk about resistance, and I'm just do

lots of programs on resistance.

In fact, I'm going to be having a program that this just on resistance.

It's an online course, because I think people need this.

The understanding is that there's 3.

There's three layers of resistance.

So the first kind of resistance is if you're an avoider, you're like, you

avoid, I just don't want to do it.

I hate it.

It feels bad.

I'm, I know that about myself.

Let's say, I think I've bettered myself in that way though.

I'm willing to be uncomfortable.

So now I'm looking at their resistance.

Okay.

They're defensive.

They're sarcastic.

They're going to blame me.

They're going to get me derailed.

And I know what they're going to say.

So I know that they're negativity.

I know that is a level of resistance.

What we think that we're resistant because of that, but here's

what we're really resistant.

I call it level three resisting their resistance.

So if someone's if I know what they're going to say if i'm coaching someone

they go, okay, You just don't understand.

I already know what they're going to say.

I'll say Are you willing to have the conversation anyway, even though

you know what they're going to say?

they might cry.

I understand.

They might cry.

Are you willing to have the conversation even though they might cry?

I might feel really embarrassed.

I understand.

Would you be willing to feel some embarrassment in order to try?

It's,

it's

the desire not to have someone resist you.

It's not even the fact that it's literally, I'm saying I'm resisting

someone else who might resist me because of the fact they would resist me.

That's what you're talking about.

And you're going, okay, again, your objection dies with agreement.

You're reverse in reverse.

You're saying, Hey, look.

I agree with you that I, but would you do it anyway,

yeah,

go, go, go test it out.

Call me back and tell me what they said.

Go do it.

Go try it.

because really the reason that they're showing up the way they do is because

you always show up the way you do.

So you're part of that.

If you change the way you do it, they automatically have a different

energy and response just because the pattern shifted just by you doing it.

I always say, It's always three layers down and it's never about

the first thing you think it is.

So what I call, willingness is the fulcrum point of change.

In other words, nothing happens until there's a state of willingness.

So if you think that it's because they're not willing, the truth is you're not

willing to have them not be willing.

That's really the truth.

It's just, are you willing?

And so I call that the magic phrase, would you be willing?

And if someone says.

Yeah, someone says, you're coaching someone, you say, would you be willing

to, would you be willing to work on second shift next week to train with Mike?

If someone says, no, I'm not willing, that's not necessarily resistance.

That's clear that he's not going to do it, but there's

consequences with that clarity.

Sure.

Yeah.

He's it's a trade off.

It's okay, fine.

You can't work here, but you still have a choice, but your

choice is going to have a consequence.

So it's I can say, would you be willing?

And willingness is the fulcrum point of change.

But if I won't even ask them to be willing, I'm the bottleneck, not them.

that's right.

and here's the thing, if that person has the choice and they choose to go

and work that and train, then it makes it less likely, or at least less,

reasonable that they would sit there and just bemoan it the whole time or not

go in and do it because they chose it.

It was their choice.

Now, as a leader or manager, I'm going to say, Hey, go and work this.

Then all of a sudden it's man, he made me do, I don't even,

I didn't even want to be here.

and you've taken that choice away from them.

What you've done is you've seeded, an opportunity for them to, have

Harbor, feelings of bitterness or, a grudge or whatever, because

they didn't have the choice.

So I love that.

I love the, because it also gives them, you can, there's no

difference in the consequences.

there's no difference in the trade off.

The trade off is still the trade off.

It's just, they have a perception and I would say the reality of a choice.

Whereas the other way they perceive, they don't have a choice, even though they do.

so I love that.

I really love that.

So let me ask you this in your career, as you made the jump from, where you

were in your career and to this special, like new area of consulting and speaking

and writing, has there been anyone that.

Was a great mentor for you that you felt like you leaned on and really

you looked at and said, this is this, either this person is I'm looking to

as a model, or this was an individual in my life that really helped me

navigate some of these waters.

Gosh, I've never thought about that in depth because there

wasn't just like one person that I studied under and I mentored under.

I've got several little examples of people that either encouraged me

or gave me an opportunity, although they were small opportunities.

It was still just the next right step.

I do remember, in my master's, whenever I was a little bit stuck, because

I, business was flailing because I just didn't know what I was doing.

It didn't have business savvy at that time.

And I'm like, I don't want to be nonproductive because I've quit a job now.

I can't just sit around and hope the good fairy brings me a client.

I'm like, what can I do?

What can I do?

So I start going and get my master's degree.

And this, I would say this was just, it was not like great mentoring, but it

was a great thing that connected for me.

when, I was like, I don't know, this is expensive.

I'm paying for out of my own pocket and I'm not making money.

I quit this job.

It's oh, I'm in this weird place.

This one professor said, you need to stick this out and you

need to get your master's degree.

Of course, everybody that's in education thinks that's the only path, right?

it's not that's how he said.

You need to like, get your PhD.

Just keep going.

Get a second one.

That'll do it.

but he's get your do your masters because it'll pay off.

I'm like, how's it going to pay off?

Really?

And he said, Because you'll do a research project at the end, and that's

gonna, it's called a capstone and that capstone can lay the foundation

for everything you're going to do.

And it can be like Stephen Covey.

And I thought, not only do I not understand what capstone means, and do

I think I'm smart enough to do research or focused enough, but he's saying

something that could be something to it.

So I think I'll just keep going.

And I did, and that did become a foundation because

I studied workplace drama.

But the reason I studied that is because I had learned about this tool called

the Karpman Drama Triangle, and it's a big component in a lot of my work.

And so when I learned about the victim, the persecutor and the

rescuer, I used that word to talk about interactions in the workplace,

and then that became my research.

So it's been threaded through the whole time.

gosh.

I am familiar with the drama triangle.

I've, I have seen that before.

So that is so fascinating.

It's so cool.

Isn't it wild how little conversations like that can make such a huge

impact on the trajectory of, of career in life, man, that's awesome.

well, and also I was talking about this.

I think you'll enjoy this.

I was talking about this with a friend of mine the other day.

This is so distant.

It's really almost hard to remember and I want to give people credit that gave me

that choice and that chance, but sometimes you're just in your drama so much.

You don't even know when it is a choice or a chance.

You're just trying You know, survive climbing the mud hill, but there was

a guy that worked out there where I worked and he was, he was a trainer.

maybe he was a safety trainer or maybe he was a trainer.

I can't remember.

But his name is Ken Marshall and I hadn't even quit.

I was 3 or 4 years away from quitting and I remember talking to him and

saying, I'd love to do what you do.

It looks really, it looks fun.

I think I like to teach and just motivational to train and.

He actually said, I'll tell you what, I'm doing a training out at

this manufacturing plant next week.

Why don't you just build a little 30 minutes?

Something and I'll let you do it.

that's pretty amazing.

When I think about that, because I didn't know how to dress.

I think when he showed up to pick me up, I maybe had shorts on.

It's I didn't know.

I didn't know anyway, so I compare that with someone else that work there.

That was in HR that did some trainings and I went to him and

I said, I'm just struggling.

I know I've got more to offer, but see, they don't see you as anything more than

what you currently are because they don't.

It's not that world.

Right?

That world isn't a world.

Be in a trajectory, but and I never even heard about career path.

I didn't even know what that meant.

I didn't even know what that meant.

So I go to him and I say, I just love to do what you do.

And here was his stance.

You think this is easy.

You're sitting back thinking you could do what I can do.

You don't know what all I do every day.

I'm just saying it looks fun.

It's not just fun.

I work hard and I'm like, okay, and it's it was really discouraging.

So that's how I know when someone's enlightened because there's people

honestly that call me and I get it like, they're like, hey, could

you tell me how to write a book or how to start a speaking crew?

I'm like, oh, my God, that's saying I'm in the middle of the ocean,

which way to shore, and so when you don't know, you don't know,

you don't know, you don't know.

It looks like I just made this happen.

Like you looked at this photograph of me, like in 20, the year 2000, and now

you look at it like, how'd that happen?

Wow.

There's three pictures in here.

No, my gosh, there's albums.

exactly right.

You have no idea what goes underneath when you start peeling the layers.

It's amazing.

The amount of effort and it's somebody's I think I'll do that tomorrow.

Next week.

Can you tell me how it is?

no, this is not how that works.

what I love about young people.

I've had people say, Oh, my God, I'm so excited.

I'm starting a YouTube channel.

I'm starting a podcast.

And then when I see it, their 1st 1 is amazing.

Come to find out it took him 4 weeks to do it.

And I hired people to help him.

I'm like, okay, this isn't sustainable.

you think this is what it takes.

It's so good.

It is so true because there's so much, I think, to pressure for young

entrepreneurs, young leaders to have it right out of the gate because

they, there's so much proliferation of this, Whatever perfect is right.

and the social media has been not getting used to, you just have to wait till the

next month that, fortune Forbes Ryan, Ink magazine comes out and I didn't

get it every second on social media.

So I think that just the barrage of this is what I have to be and

look like to achieve success.

I think it's really stolen a lot of what you've talked about

earlier is authenticity from young leaders and also, completely.

Misses the set, like the expectations on what the grind is really about, you know?

And

Well, and truly,

about.

I think it's confusing to everyone.

I mean, every now and then I'm thinking, should I get a cat and

a turtle and put it on YouTube?

Or should I be shuffle dancing?

what am I supposed to be doing?

It's this person, they got the knowledge and the wisdom of Job

and Aristotle, and they're 20.

How are they doing that?

I don't know how they're doing it.

that's pretty amazing to me, and it can be confusing at any age.

or, oh my God, they've got five kids.

50, 000 followers and they've got a cat and a turtle and apparently

they're making money from that,

is.

And that's, and I'm not knocking anyone that can go and start it.

And neither are you know, starting the YouTube channel is great.

But I would say that for most people, it is a process and engaging that's

the journey and that's the fun part.

And so I really appreciate it because as we go through that, we're going

to meet people that are for us.

Some that are against us, some that are going to help us and give us a hand up.

and some that are not, and you've, we're going to experience

conflict along the way.

And I cannot tell you how awesome our conversation has been.

You've talked about the three life trajectories and had some

great questions about that.

you've given us some, information about, how to release that resistance.

And we've talked about, the three A's it's just, you have just covered the

gamut, the inner game, the outer game.

We have had the best conversation.

We had two things and we'll close it up.

One is, what would you tell a young leader that is just starting out as

they're coming into, maybe they're just new into their role in leadership.

What would, what advice would you give them?

And then the last thing is we always ask the guests on the last 10%, who they would

like to hear as a guest on the last 10%.

So I'll let you roll that.

Okay I'd say Live by this that in all drama There's always a lack of

clarity the one with clarity navigates the ship and clarity can change any situation

So if all you think of is clarity can change any situation, then in every

conflict, you'll understand that there's somewhere where someone is not clear

and clarity will change the situation.

I live by that with coaching people that are just beyond brilliant.

And I used to think, oh, I'm just not smart enough to help them.

And I'd be like, I'm not supposed to be smart like them.

They know what they know.

And that's what they're supposed to do.

My job is to help them get clear about all the things.

Things going on in their mind, so clarity can change you.

You won't be able to do everything that everyone does that you're leading.

you won't be as hard as them in certain ways, but you can help them maintain

and get clarity on what they need to do.

that would be and what was the

that.

The last one is who would you like to hear as a guest on the last

I love Ben Hardy.

He's just really smart.

And he's very, he's big now.

He's really big and very busy.

I love Daniel Priestly, and he's great for entrepreneurs and, he's just really,

really smart., but there's just so many.

no.

Those are two great ones.

I love it.

I love it.

Marlene, this has just been a pleasure.

It has been fun.

And I'm so thankful that you, you're here.

Got to come on the last 10 percent and how can people get in touch with you?

If they want to order a book, take a LinkedIn course, what's the best ways

that people get in touch with you?

Yeah, you can, Marlene Chisholm, marlene at marlenechisholm.

com is my website.

There's some resources and things to sign up for.

I'm also on LinkedIn, so if you want to say you heard me on this show, you can

go on there and follow me or connect with me and mention this show as well.

And so you can find me on LinkedIn real easy and also my website.

Awesome.

We'll put all of that in the show notes.

So if you're driving, don't worry, we got you covered and thank you again, Marlene.

And we just, we look forward to, maybe having you back

on the show again sometime.

That'd be great.

Thanks for having me.