“Recently being on the front lines at Fairy Creek, music is just such a big part of these movements and completely shifts the energy and morale of a group and a situation.”

Multidisciplinary artist Vanessa LeFan joins host Oceaan Pendharkar in the penultimate episode of Resonant Rest.

Together, Vanessa and Oceaan discuss sustaining one’s body and time, especially within seasonal structures of work, to imagine and create new futures. They interrogate the grant system and the economic insinuations behind terms like “genre” and “emerging.” Vanessa also shares her dreams of reconnecting music and dance and what the frontlines of the Fairy Creek Blockade have taught her about the power and purpose of song.

And they geek out—just a little bit—about their shared theatre kid roots.

[theme music with soothing synths and piano]

Oceaan Pendharkar 0:26

Hello, welcome to the Resonant Rest podcast. My name is Oceaan. I am a musician in so-called Vancouver, unceded territory of the Musqueam. Squamish and Tsleil-Waututh First Nations. And this is a podcast about musicians, rest, creative practice, sustenance, and community. This is going to be our sixth episode out of the seven episodes of this season. The more I hear people's reactions to the podcast, the more I'm feeling like I want to make another season. So that may or may not be the case. But for now, this is the sixth of seven episodes that are coming up. If you haven't had a chance to check out the other episodes, and you like this one, you probably should. We've had some awesome guests on the show, and some really good conversations. This episode is going to feature the conversation I had with Vanessa Lefan. Thank you so much for being here. And here we go. How do you want to introduce yourself? What do you want people to know about you?

This is Vanessa. I was born and raised in Taiwan. And I emigrated here into so-called Canada when I was 11. I've been a multidisciplinary artist my entire life. Like I've never saw art forms as being separate. To me, they're just ways of creating and expressing and playing. And it wasn't until later on when I was trying to apply for grants and things like that. And like I realized I had to like, put myself in a category to be recognized as such. But yeah, like I love expressing myself through music, I write, I like to paint and draw and make videos and take photos and dance and move. And to me it is all just a part of the same thing. You know, what links it all together is less about the form and more about the why like the purpose of why I'm doing it what it represents. And yeah, the message that's in it or the feeling.

Wow, you just gave me a lot to think about there. That was cool.

It's probably just at the forefront of my mind because it's like, yeah, a conversation that I've had to have over and over again recently. Grants and, like, stuff with school like my – I'm in this like internship program. And then the supervisor is like, so like, what are you? What are you doing? What does this write-up mean? Yeah, because one of our assignments was to write like an artist mission statement. He's like, this is really good. But like, What do you mean? So I had to explain via email. And so it's just something that I've had to, like, explain to different people along the last few weeks.

That's awesome. I'm going to ask you one of the questions here. Okay. What does creativity look like in your life? You've touched on that a little bit. And how does music play into it? Do you have rituals? Or like practice routines? Or what does your day to day, month to month look like? With, like, creativity and music?

Honestly, I wish I had a practice routine. Yeah, that is something that I haven't had since I was a child in, like, Royal Conservatory training, and my parents forced me. And then as soon as I became an adult, I'm like, I don't need practice anymore. Which is not true. I'm like, always, I'm not trying to get back into that. Right now I feel like my practice is more consistent in dance. Because it's something like a physical that I kind of have to keep up with. And there's projects ongoing and in terms of music, I it is a part of my daily life. Like I find myself singing my way through tasks and like moments that are joyful, moments that are uncomfortable moments that are sad. I just naturally sing about them. Sometimes it's like an actual song. Sometimes it's just silly words that come out as melodies.

Yeah, and I think even just like I'll find myself tapping beats just out and about. And it's just, I feel like creativity is a really ingrained part of just who I am and how I understand the world and interact with it. Yeah, yeah, it's not really something that I consciously sit down and do as often as I would like to. But I also recognize that it's not something that I just can't stop doing. It's just who I am, and have always been.

Cool. Yeah.

Like, I'll see the world and pictures and poetry, and like, something will happen. And I get like, a phrase in my head. And sometimes it turns into a poem, sometimes it will turn into song lyrics and have melodies attached to them. And it's just how I experience and remember what's going on around me.

It sounds like creativity is really tied in with everything else for you. Does that resonate? If I say that?

Yeah, it's like ties into relationships, like social interactions, or even just what's going on in the bigger world picture, or even little things like the way a snail crosses across the street, everything is creativity!

Yeah. You're so right, to balance, creative time, resting time and everything else, do you set goals? Do you just let life happen? What do you see, when you imagine a life with enough time to do everything you want to do, asically?

I feel like time is a funny thing in capitalist society, because time is tied to energy and tied to money. You know, we get paid for our time and our energy. Ultimately, I feel like, like, if I didn't have to make money, I would have so much more time. This year, especially this past two years, really, with like CERB being available on and off, it just really put that into perspective of like, what I'm capable of doing and how much extra time I have to create and also take care of myself when I don't have to worry about how am I going to pay rent? How I'm going to eat food and like needing to fill hours that translate into money? So I feel like, yeah, it's a constant learning curve. But even now, like, with CERB, I don't need to have the same stress of a full time job. I still find myself running out of time, because now I have all this free time that I'm filling with projects, things that I actually really want to do and learn. And so yeah, balancing that with sleep and rest is also a constant challenge.

Yeah, yeah, I find that too. It's interesting. Like one of the things people are worried about with basic income is like, people need jobs, specifically, people need structured jobs, you know, I guess freelance people can be included in that, or whatever that looks like. But it's interesting how a lot of the arguments against basic income are like, you know, without jobs, people won't be motivated to do stuff. And I also find basically, what you've been saying is that, like, when I have free time, I'm like, Oh, I have all this other stuff I want to do. And I like to do it all. And then I'm like, Oh, I'm busy. So like, I don't know, it's interesting to like, just like thinking about how much I want to be busy. And how much I just like, want to do everything because I'm like, Oh, I have time for it, you know, sort of thing? Do you find it when you have time? Do you find yourself feeling it? Do you think consciously about making time for not doing things with your time?

Yeah, no, totally. I find myself wanting to fill time, sometimes I recognize it's coming from a place of growing up in, like, capitalistic productivity is a value in society. So I feel like I need to be doing something with my time to be productive, to constantly be trying to make something or improve. And I think that it is also natural to want to continue to grow and learn. And I heard the argument that people are going to be lazy and sit around if they don't want to go to work. But that's not true. People will get bored. People want to learn and some people want to be out there doing things that are interesting to them. Yeah, I'm deathly curious, sometimes to my own detriment! It’s kind of how I ended up being multidisciplinary just because I see cool things and I want to try them and I want to do them myself. So I tend to fill time with doing things and then I also get asked to help and I love helping people with their things. So yeah, time gets filled.

And I do try to be mindful of taking the spare time that I do have to rest when I can and I think this summer I really had to honor that because I was really busy and I knew that fall, like starting September, was going to be even busier. So when I did see chunks of my schedule where I could chill. And I felt the impulse to fill that time, I consciously had to remind myself like, take it, chill, do nothing, half brunch, cuddle the dog, because you're gonna want this later when you can't have it. Yeah. So yeah, I think it's like learning to balance things from a day to day basis, but also like in the longer term, like week to week, month to month knowing that like, the nature of gig work, and being an artist, it's kind of seasonal in a weird way. So when you have the opportunity, when it's not hectic, and everything is happening, just take it and enjoy it.

Yeah, the seasonal thing is hard too. I feel like there used to be a busy season at Christmas. And there used to be a busy season sort of in the summer as soon as things got nice, but I feel like COVID changing that to like, I don't know what's gonna happen this Christmas, or like, I guess my nature of gigs has also changed since COVID. But my Christmas used to just be like, packed gigs all the time in December.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, like Christmas, holidays, New year. And then deadzone.

Deadzone! February! Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah. Okay. Here's another one. How do you sustain yourself? We could talk about income, food, feeding the spirit. Anything else that comes up when you think of sustenance

Sustenance, sustenance reminds me of food.

Yeah, me too. Yeah.

I try to remind myself to eat when I can. Especially like mornings now that like I have more like things happening in the morning, I need to remind myself that sometimes even though I'm not necessarily hungry at 9am, I should eat because my next opportunity is 2pm sometime between now and then I'm going to regret not eating. So I think it's like, really looking at my schedules. And like recognizing the times I have to eat and also not falling to the trap of eating out all the time, or putting myself in a position where my option is more limited and limited to just like, quick grab and go. Like, I'm going to have a croissant for lunch. Like sometimes that's wonderful. But like, I think over the long term, I tried to be more mindful of like, okay, when can I make time to actually sit down and have a meal and not be constantly just like, working as I eat, driving as I eat, and actually take that time to be with my food and that sustenance?

Yeah, and sleep is a big one. I was much worse as a younger person. Yeah, no, push things to the deadline and then stay up all night and use an all nighter as my ways to meet deadlines. And I've just recognized that I can't do that anymore. And just budgeting time. And sometimes that even just means calling it quits at midnight. And just knowing that I'll just do it tomorrow or another day or sometimes getting that rest is more important than meeting a particular deadline.

Yeah, those boundaries are so important for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. I think in sustenance, too, I think about the long term, like you're saying, like, you can have one day or something or like, here and there where you have to, like, do something on the go or whatever. But it's really nice to, like, plan for moments with food, that happen often? I find it so nice to just eat at home. I'm trying to eat all my meals at home. Yeah, and like cooking versus eating out. It's such a thing to balance, especially now that like Uber Eats and delivery services are so readily available because of COVID. Yeah, I've never seen this much takeout in my life. But it's also nice sometimes to allow yourself that and not feel the guilt of like, oh, no, I'm like, buying my meal and getting it delivered. And sometimes just recognizing that, like, it's been hectic. I'm exhausted. I need to just allow myself this space and this. Yeah. And sustenance.

It's nice that it's available too. I find that sometimes exactly what I need to sustain myself is delivery food. Yeah, yeah.

Because it's either that or I'm just gonna end up eating popcorn for dinner or something. I can't go grocery shopping.

Yeah. That's not enough.

Okay, do you have any dreams about the future? Musical dreams, a creative dream. What are your dreams? What do you dream about?

My dream is... Well, I have a few. Um, I feel like the more tangible one right now is recording an album and releasing it with some videos. And the next step after that, I would like to make that project into a picture book. Like illustrations and like, you know, QR codes that people can scan and the song lyrics and poetry and stories behind the songs with like pictures and illustrations that go with them.

That would be so beautiful.

Yeah, I think that's something I'm really excited about. I already have quite the poetry collection going. So that's my next project. Maybe after that, I want to make it an art installation, like kind of take over a gallery space, print out the photos and texts and then have either a live musical performance or just have a sound installation where the sound has played through space in a way. I'm getting more interested into like electric acoustic stuff, and how live performance but also like pre-made things can be used in space to create experiences that are more physical and tangible for people. Cool. Yeah. I also would love to write a musical.

Haha!

I would love to write the musical and then have like dance and stories and like sets and --

Wow, that sounds awesome. I come to that.

Yeah, same. I don't know what's gonna be about yet. But yeah, that's so fun. Because like, I think since I was a little kid I really grew up on like Disney movies and other musicals. And I've just always kind of lived my life as such. When no one is watching. I will just sing my way through like daily mundane thing. Like I'm a character and I think I've always dreamed of creating something.

Yeah, me too. Do you know that I was like a musical theater kid?

No, I didn't!

Okay. Yeah. I was cool. I was. I think my favorite role was probably when I was Snoopy and Snoopy. Ooh, have you seen Snoopy the musical? Okay. It's pretty fun.

Let's make a musical one day.

Sure! Yeah. I love it. I love it. I'm so eloquent. Yeah, yeah. Do you find yourself imagining the future? A lot? Or do you feel like you're creating your future in your mind as you go through life? Or do you feel differently?

I think I imagine a lot of hypotheticals of what could happen. But I also kind of know that the future is so unpredictable. Because even three years ago, I would have no idea that I would be where I am now. And there's no way I could have guessed, just because based upon who you meet, and things that happen, you know, like a pandemic in the world. Everything can shift.

Of course, that example.

Yeah, exactly. Like I think these past two years have really shown us that, like anything can happen in any plan you think you have could just be scrapped. And being open to that, I think, is really exciting. And on a more bleak side, when I think about the future now, like, I just have this overwhelming climate crisis anxiety of just really feeling a sense of urgency to want to do something. Because I feel like we have to. And when we talk when we talk about rest and things like that, it's like, Yes, I take moments and days to rest. But overall, I don't really think that I could rest even if I was like a millionaire and never had to work a day in my life. I can't rest because I know that we have to be collectively working towards a future, because at this rate we don't have one.

Yeah, I guess for me, I think rest is such an important part of that journey forward. I think they're intertwined. I think they can be intertwined.

Yeah, totally. Yeah, there has to be. If we don't rest, we can't sustain ourselves in the long term to do what we need to do. Yeah, but I guess it's like, there's a dream of just wanting to kick it on a beach forever, have a cabin in the woods, listen to the ocean waves and just like meditating the rest of my life. But I don't think...

Is that what Utopia looks like for you?

I think Utopia looks like everybody in the world having that option if they choose to. But it was just me then I'm not going to be happy in that space. Because I know that there's people out there who can't do that. Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. Totally. Yeah.

Yeah. We're far far away from utopia.

I guess I find it interesting to imagine what an ideal situation would look like, because sometimes I feel very stuck in dissecting all the things that are currently happening and trying to imagine something different, is something that intrigues me. There have been some events lately that have made me think like, of how to move forward with, like, how we deal with sexual assault in our communities, or like, and just like imagining futures, where, like, we can talk about stuff and like, it's not so like, incarceration based, I guess I imagined futures where we're, we can talk about stuff together, and like, try to be on the same page as each other somehow. But I have no idea what it would look like. But I guess, imagining is intriguing to me.

That's the beautiful thing about art and the role of artists, we get to create these fantasy worlds and make them tangible. In a way we take things from our imaginations, and we either make them into sounds or make them into like, plays or videos. But these stories are what make things that we imagined possible. Because everything that exists now was a dream at some point. You know, we've been watching throwback Star Trek a lot recently? Even just looking at them on their, like little cell phones and like video chatting, I'm like, yeah, they knew this was gonna happen without actually knowing what's gonna happen.

That's great!

So anything we imagined now, like could be, it could be in the future.

It could? I hope so. Yeah, just one of the ways I sort of maintain hope, I guess. I have one, like, more structured question. Is there anything you want to nurture or change here and now in the musical community? Like, what do you want to see more of?

The first thing that comes to mind is I would love to see more of a relationship between the music and the dance communities. Because I feel like there was a time in history where music and dance did not exist separately. And then recordings kind of like fuck that up. When dancers could then dance to music without musicians. And it's kind of weird, because back in the day, to dance you needed a person like drumming or playing or doing something. But now, technology has almost allowed that separation to happen. And beautiful things have come from it and allow these art forms to evolve separately, but I feel like locally, I've kind of noticed that not a lot of dancing happens at live music events, and not a lot of musicians dance. And I would love to see more of a blend and emerge in that.

Yeah!

As someone who kind of walks a little bit on both sides. And like, Y'all are pretty cool. You should hang out!

Yeah!

You should go to each other's things and, like, make the general arts community more cohesive, rather than broken up into these little niches. Because even within music itself, it's very, like, segregated in a way? The same people like to go see each other's shows. And then there's entire scenes that we have no idea about, and I would love to see more coming together, because I think there's strength in that totally.

Yeah, I think a lot about integrating movement in music. When working with my students. I feel like music does live in the body. And I feel when we're learning music, we could definitely develop a vocabulary for speaking about it and integrating it because like, there's a lot of, like, tension. At the very small level, there's a lot of tension when playing musical instruments, because you're doing a new thing and you're doing things your hands don't usually do. You're like, maybe sitting in a weird way, depending on the instrument you're playing. And then there's also just the spirit of the music that moves you inside. Right? And that's, I feel like that's where the magic of music comes from. And to have music be so separate from movement feels like there's a cut there, there's division, that it's, it is part of the same sort of body like you're saying, yeah.

That's why, like, musical theater is so interesting. Singing and dancing. Every time I see those things happening at the same time. I'm like, yeah, that's, that's how it's meant to be. Maybe not meant to be on stage. But like, you know, those things just go so naturally together. And that's what I find so exciting about -- right now I'm working with a group called Immigrant Lessons. And there is a lot of blending of music and dance happening. It's really exciting to see where this goes. We're currently researching for a new piece that's coming out now a few years, but this research is really interesting to me. We'll see where it goes. But it's pretty cool.

Cool. I did have a question. I had one more question about something you said earlier. You were talking about applying for grants and how applying for grants has made you put yourself into boxes? And I wonder if you could elaborate on that? Like, what do you mean, when you say that?

Well, then a lot of these grant funding agencies, you need to make a profile and define what you are. Like, are you applying in the music stream, the dance stream, the media stream? So right off the bat, you have to choose what category you fall in and set up your profile. And then when you go to apply for the grant itself, there's different categories? Like are you emerging? Are you professional? What genre are you in? And there's just all these like, drop down menus of like, what are you based on these words that have been defined. And even just, like, what genre are you in is probably the worst question I can be asked. Because I don't know! You know, like, I feel like my music and my art is a little bit all over the place, influenced by different things and inspired by different things. But like, I'm not trying to recreate anything that exists already. So where does that fall on the spectrum?

It's interesting. I wonder where that question is coming from from a grant giving body, right? I wonder what they actually want to know, when they ask that question. Are they wondering who you're going to market to? Because that would be a more specific question, right? Are they wondering like, I guess what communities are going to touch with your music is probably what the question is, I imagine? Or maybe it's something else.

I really don't know.

Or maybe they're just trying to have a variety of genres. So like, if they have too many people who are like, Oh, I'm a pop artist, then they don't want it to all be pop music or something.

But what is pop music? Yeah, no pop music has changed so much over the years.

Yeah, there's yeah, there's that. Yeah. And the emerging thing is so funny, too.

Yeah. Who gets to be emerging?

Yeah, there were two, the two keynote speakers. It was the director of the VSO. And I think her name is Laura Karpman, they're two like two women who were super advanced in their careers. Laura's scoring these, like really high profile films, you know, really far in her career. And she's like, I'm still emerging! We're all still emerging! You know? Like, it's funny. It just makes me think about because like, they're obviously very far ahead in their careers. And the word emerging, I don't know, it's, it seems like, is it asking, Do you need some extra help right now? Because you don't have connections yet? Or like, I don't know what the question is? Are you new enough for us to be excited about you? I don't know what the question is.

It's also tricky, because it's like, they want you to be emerging and not like quote unquote established, but you can't be too emerging, because you also need a body of work and you've made revenue. Yeah. What do you mean? Yeah, you know, like, if this is for new artists making new work, like how is there this expectation of them having like, all these sales and stuff already? It's bizarre to me.

Yeah. It's interesting, established versus emerging, established artists?

Well, they're, they're kind of categorizing based on how much money you've made in the past year or music. And that's the one organization they're all kind of different. And sometimes it's also frustrating as an emerging artist to see certain other artists get grants for emerging artists, but you wouldn't consider them as emerging. Yeah. And knowing that there's like a limited amount of funding available, and knowing that they already have access to opportunities. It's kind of unfair. Like, yeah, of course, you're gonna get the grant because you have all these letters behind you, and this, like giant portfolio. But is this what this is for? And, like, I can't, you know, blame them for applying and getting it, but also just looking at the funding agencies of like, where's your discretion laying in if, you know, you're giving opportunities to people who already have been given opportunities?

Yeah. Well, thanks for talking with me about it. I appreciate your insight.

No problem.

Is there - Do you have any like words you want to say, right now? I don't think I have any more questions. So I'm just like opening it up to you if you have thoughts or questions or like, I don't know.

Yeah. I think that. Just to also elaborate on the question of what I would like to see in the music's community more, something that really interest me, and it's like something that I've talked to Tonye about a lot, is like what people do outside of their art and how do they bring that into their artwork, I find really interesting. So it's like, yes, like people can be great musicians, great performers. Adds another layer of importance to me when I meet artists or like, look at their work, or try to decide who I want to be as an artist is, what are they doing with their art? And what are they doing in their lives? And how does art serve that rather than having the aesthetic of what they're creating as almost like a commercial product? Really sit with how that can affect change, because music is such a powerful tool and such a powerful medicine, that if we collectively channel it really intentionally and work together, I feel like we can actually make some big changes with the superpowers that we have as creators.

Recently being on the front lines at Fairy Creek, like music is just such a big part of these movements and like, completely shifts the energy and morale of a group and like a situation and just is such a beautiful way for people to be able to connect to each other and understand each other and, you know, singing in unison with people, even if you don't know them just brings you together and connects you in a way that would have taken much longer if you were to just sit around and try to like introduce yourself by name and stating interesting facts, but the second you start singing together and drumming together, you are a group and a collective. And I think there's so much power in that. And yeah, I think as musicians, especially I think if we had something like UBI to support us, we don't have to be worried about our next gig or next sales, we can dive more into the whys of what we're doing that's beyond making a living.

Yeah, yeah. Thank you. [Musical interlude]

We've reached the part of the episode where I say a quick hello before saying goodbye. Before you go though, make sure you listen to the end of the episode. To hear Vanessa's new single "Bodies of Water." Very exciting. If you liked the episode, feel free to contact me. If you didn't like the episode, and you've got something to say feel free to also contact me. My Instagram handle is ocean dot pen, darker O c e a a n dot p e n d h AR K AR, you can also email me at oceaanpendharkar@gmail.com. Thank you so much for listening, I'm going to play a little clip of Vanessa talking about her song. And then you'll hear the song "Bodies of Water!" Here we go.

[Musical interlude]

I recorded this song with the help of Thomas Hoeller over the course of pretty much COVID. And the intention was really to dive into what connects us as human beings having this experience, whether it's our connection to our ancestry, and the bodies of water that our ancestors had to cross to get to here, especially most of us who are not Indigenous. And also the bodies that we live in and move in are made mostly of water and the ways that these complex histories connect us all, and what responsibilities that gives us as people here now and what we can do with that? I think those are the questions that I was trying to ask in the song and some of the answers that I heard in my own reflections.

And yeah, I'm gonna make a music video at the blockades with one of the media people from the frontlines and just really showcase this movement because my experience there has really embodied and answered a lot of these questions that I have of what it looks like for different people from all walks of life to come together and do something for the collective good, knowing that it's bigger than just ourselves as individual people. And just really honoring our connection to each other and the land and the waters that sustain us. So yeah, I'm really excited for the project to come together and be out into the world. And I hope that it reminds people of the responsibilities and powers that they do have to change the world around them.

[music playing: Bodies of Water by Van Lefan]

Have you ever wandered

The lands of your ancestors?

Do you hear them calling?

From the center of the earth

Do you feel alone, far away from home?

Darling don’t you know, you carry all their hopes

Oh my brothers and sisters

Does blood really run thicker

Than these bodies of water

That hold us together?

Take a moment to remember

who paved all these roads

Under our feet on this journey

To create a new world

Which wings made the winds that blow

To these distant shores

So we can finally tell these stories

they couldn’t before

Oh my brothers and sisters

Does blood really run thicker

Than these bodies of water

That hold us together?

Oh my brothers and sisters

Does blood really run thicker

Than these bodies of water

That hold us together?

So run, run, run

We ain’t done

So run, run run

We’ve just begun

[music ends]