Are empathy and humanity compatible with great leadership, or do they just get in the way? That's the topic of today's conversation with executive coach Jennifer Nash about her book, "Be Human, Lead Human: How to Connect People and Performance."

Jennifer's got great war stories (or more accurately, Peace Stories). Like how Alan Mulally turned things around at Ford by NOT being the smartest guy in the room.

Looking for a mnifty mnemonic to guide you to become a better, more human-centric leader? The HUMANS framework has you covered.

Don't miss this inspiring conversation—you'll definitely walk away with some fresh insights on creating happier, more effective workplaces.

01:00 Ballroom Dancing and Leadership

02:02 The Story Behind 'Be Human, Lead Human'

03:33 Alan Mulally's Transformative Leadership at Ford

09:36 The Importance of Human-Centric Leadership

21:56 Jennifer's Journey: From Ford to Deloitte

23:40 Implementing Human-Centric Strategies in Organizations

29:55 The Motivation Behind Transformation

30:15 The Power of Semantics in Change

30:44 Understanding Human Behavior and Motivation

31:22 Organizational Change Strategies

32:55 Ford's Inclusive Leadership Approach

35:03 Introducing the HUMAN Framework

35:51 Breaking Down the HUMAN Framework

38:19 The Importance of Relationships in Leadership

40:03 Self-Assessment and Feedback in Leadership

43:04 Addressing Neurodivergence in Leadership

48:18 Coaching Through Self-Awareness and Emotional Reactions

52:53 The Future of Leadership with AI

Dr Howie Jacobson: Do we have to jettison some essential part of our humanity? If we aspire to be a leader? Do we have to get tough? Do we have to separate ourselves from the masses? Do we have to lose empathy and curiosity and just drive forward in this quest to create something new?

Or is our humanity the essential key to good leadership? Today's guest, Jennifer Nash answers that question with her book. Be human, lead human. I hope you enjoy the conversation. So without further ado.

Howie Jacobson: Jennifer Nash, welcome to the Plant Yourself Podcast.

Jennifer: Oh, thank you so much, Howie. I am so excited to be here today.

Howie Jacobson: We're, we're gonna get into it. Before we talk about your wonderful book, I would love for you to just to introduce yourself to the audience and let them know kind of a little bit about you and what you're up to.

Jennifer: Uh, so my name is Jennifer Nash. I am an executive coach based in Austin, Texas. I recently wrote the book called Be Human, lead Human, how to Connect People in Performance. And when I am not coaching or consulting or doing work with organizations around the world, I'm a competitive ballroom dancer.

Howie Jacobson: Really. So the first key thing that comes to my mind is like stepping on other people's feet. I guess that's not, I guess that's not what you mean. Right.

Jennifer: Well, I have done some of that in the past, I'll admit. Especially when you're not coordinated. Exactly right. But yeah. Um, I, and it's funny that you mention that because my husband actually decided that he would take up ballroom dancing because he had two left feet. And that's actually how

Howie Jacobson: Uhhuh. Okay.

Jennifer: met at a ballroom dance class.

Howie Jacobson: Oh, cool, cool. And you do me, you do mention that, and I didn't realize this about you, so because I, so it went over my head in the book that, that dancing and leadership are not, uh, different in some ways.

Jennifer: No, there are actually so many similarities and I actually teach leadership through ballroom dance, so it's an interesting way to bring the concept of working together and partnering, um, to someone that maybe they haven't thought about it in that way before.

Howie Jacobson: Oh, can we start there? So we should mention your, the, the book Be Human lead Human. You, you already said it. Um, so I, I found myself like. Wanting to write down the order of the words, so I didn't get it wrong. Like lead human, be human and tell me why the order that you put it in and the title makes sense.

Jennifer: Oh, I love that question. So human lead. Human came about because as leaders we often think we have to have all

Howie Jacobson: I.

Jennifer: right? We have to be perfect. We have to show up and solve all of the problems and be the hero of the day. When in reality we're all just human beings that have, you know, our own idiosyncrasies, our own, you know, interests, our own unique capabilities. when we show up in a way that makes others around us feel like they have to be perfect, that eliminates the, the ability of us to say, okay, well what happens if I do make a mistake and how is that mistake gonna be viewed? And what am I gonna do about it to learn from that? So. Being human, first of all, allows us to be our whole human selves with flaws and all because we all have those. And if leaders allow themselves to show up as human and show where they're maybe not perfect or that they don't have all the answers, or that they're not the hero that saves the day, then it allows everyone else around them to be human as well. So that's why we titled the book Be Human First and then Lead Human After.

Howie Jacobson: Hmm. So one, one of the, I guess the, one of the Impetuses Impetu for, for writing the book was, um, Alan Mulala.

Jennifer: Mm-hmm.

Howie Jacobson: Um, so can you talk a little bit about your inter intersection interaction with, with Alan? And then maybe we can go into a little bit of, of how he exemplifies a lot of what you write about.

Jennifer: Sure. Yeah. So can I tell you a story? Do we have time? Yeah.

Howie Jacobson: Uh huh. Oh, yeah.

Howie Jacobson: So, so you're working there at the time?

Jennifer: So I was working at Ford Motor Company at the time, and, you

Howie Jacobson: Mm-hmm.

Jennifer: a, a people leader, you know, far down the ladder, you know, I didn't know Alan, he didn't know me. Um, and my department, the leadership in my department had decided that because morale, you know, was a little bit low and people were a little struggling, that they wanted to have an appreciation event. they bought some of these paper plates and they scattered them on tables in the building I was working in and invited everyone to come down and fill out a plate and tell somebody what you appreciated about them, and then give the plate to someone. And so I had just been to world headquarters and I heard this message about, oh my gosh, like we just mortgaged the entire company, basically. And I thought, well, you know, Alan Allen is, you know, he's, he's, lonely up at the top there and he's making some pretty tough decisions. And so maybe I think I'm gonna write my plate of appreciation to him. So Ford at the time had just celebrated its 100th anniversary of and it being in existence. And so I wrote on the plate, you know, dear Alan, thank you for being the change that we needed to see to survive the next a hundred years. And I decorated the plate with some Superman stickers 'cause I thought they had given us and, you know, put it in an interoffice envelope, sealed it up, you know, made that little figure eight with the twine, put a confidential sticker on it and dropped it in interoffice mail. And I didn't think anything of it again. And so a couple weeks later I get this message on my phone and it's Alan, and he's telling me, you know, how much he appreciated my plate. Now he wasn't able to get the plate via interoffice mail because a couple weeks before that, the leadership had call of the, of the, of the group I was in had called me down to their office. And when I got to the office in the middle of the room, there was this round table and in the center of the round table, there was this rectangular interoffice envelope. And it had been opened because the twine was. You know, undone and the sticker was unsealed and Howie. I looked at that plate and I was so disappointed because I knew exactly what was in the plate, and I knew when it happened, and the leaders in the room told me, look, we can't get this to him. And I said, well, I don't understand why. You know, did we, you know, are things so bad that we had to let you know, interoffice male personnel go like, what, what's going on? And they're like, no, we just, we don't think it's appropriate to give this to him. And I just, you know, I'm not really one to follow the rules and I don't have a lot of patience for things that don't seem to make a lot of sense. I said, okay, and I took the plate back and I had a decision to make in that moment. You know, I had a decision to make where I was either going to say, okay, and go back to my desk and just keep my head down and keep working, I was going to take matters into my own hands and get the plate to Alan. I decided that I was gonna get the plate to Alan. So I literally walked out of that office. I walked straight out to my car, jumped in my car, and drove over to world headquarters. Went up to the 12th floor and Alan wasn't there. So I gave the plate to his assistant and asked her if she would please get this to him when he was back in.

And she said, sure, no problem. And then I went back to my office. Well, then after that, a couple weeks later was when I got that phone message. So you can imagine how surprised I was to get that message where he's telling me this.

Howie Jacobson: Mm-hmm.

Jennifer: You know, I, I've, this, this means so much to me. Um, you know, thank you so much for, for giving me this plate.

I so appreciate you. Um, and I saved that message because it meant so much to me. I couldn't believe with everything he had going on, on his plate, pun intended, that, you know, he took the time to reach out to me, you know, somebody far on the ladder that he didn't even know. And. A couple weeks after that, I get this big package in the mail and it's in her office envelope, and I love surprises.

I'm like, oh, what's this? And it's from the office of the president. And so I open it and it is a handwritten letter from Alan where he said, dear Jennifer, and he put a heart around my name then said, thank you for everything that you're doing for our Ford. And then there was a whole bunch of Ford swag in it, which was super cool. And I, I, couldn't believe it. I mean, I looked at that letter and I just. It was the first time in 16 years of working that I felt seen and heard as a human being, and not just for the outcome that I

Howie Jacobson: Hmm.

Jennifer: deliver for the company, but as a person who had hopes and dreams and someone who, you know, had aspirations outside of the company.

Howie Jacobson: Hmm.

Jennifer: is how this book came to be, and it

Howie Jacobson: Uh huh.

Jennifer: my life and it changed my career and it changed my leadership.

Howie Jacobson: Hmm. What a great story. And you know, the thing that came to me as you're telling it is exactly your, what you said. Like what are the obstacles, you know, 'cause like, no disrespect to Alan, but like what you're describing isn't genius level behavior. It's not like he could do something that nobody else in the world could do.

He like, you'd expect that from like. A librarian or a kindergarten teacher or you know, the, the neighbor down the street to just sort of, right. So there must be, there must be significant obstacles. Either it's some sort of selection bias, the type of people who are promoted higher and higher into leadership, or a function of that rare air that makes them somehow more stressed or less.

Uh, empathetic and less, less aware of others and themselves. Um, what, what's, you know, what's the TLDR? What's, what's the spoiler as to why? It's, why, why Alan's, uh, behavior was so out of the ordinary.

Jennifer: So I think there are a few reasons why his behavior. So for Aline, it's not out of the ordinary behavior, but for most leaders it is out of the ordinary behavior. And I think there's a couple reasons why. think one of them is that we have engineered the humanity out of the workplace. So we are taught when we go into the workplace that, oh, emotions have no place in the workplace. We are taught that leaders have to have all the answers. We are taught that to get ahead, you have to figure out whose coattails to jump on. So when I look at this and I actually, you know, do an eight D on it, if we're in the engineering world, right, there's a lot of things that have to be unlearned in order to lead in the way that Alan was leading.

Howie Jacobson: What's ad?

Jennifer: So eight D is an engineering process where they basically dive down into the root cause analysis and figure out what went wrong and how to fix it, and how to

Howie Jacobson: I see.

Jennifer: again. Yeah.

Howie Jacobson: Cool. I'm gonna start using that. People are gonna be impressed. I as soon as, as soon as I find out what the ATS are. Sorry, I, I, I interrupted. So, uh, yeah, so, um, I mean, that's, was there more that you were gonna say before? I,

Jennifer: Um, no. So I

Howie Jacobson: I,

Jennifer: I was just closing that comment out by stating that, you know, it's, it's a question of not so much what do we have to do differently, but what do we have to unlearn order

Howie Jacobson: mm-hmm.

Jennifer: in that way? And so. You know, one of the things that you know, Alan said, you know, in his principles and practices is that, know, people like people come first, right?

Howie Jacobson: Yeah, and, and I'm imagining that there's. Um, gonna be some resistance and distrust of someone who comes in a different way, like the, the paper plate exercise. I could so imagine an external consultant coming in and saying, oh, here's an activity you can do to improve morale. And it would totally backfire,

right? Because people know, like it's, it's sort of coercive, it's sort of performative. Um, and so this, this listening tour, I, I suddenly remembered this movie I saw when I was a teenager. It was a Robert Redford film called Brewbaker about, uh, do you know it?

Jennifer: No, I don't know the movie.

Howie Jacobson: Oh. Um, so he's a, uh, he's brought in at the beginning of the movie as a prisoner to this very rough maximum security facility, and he gets into fights and he like fighting with the guards.

And after about 10 or 11 minutes. There's an announcement he's brought in and he's the new warden. Right. And that's like so instant credibility. Like I wanted to experience it from the other side, you know, almost died, right? And so like, like, you know, Alan's listening tour was like not at that level of, of drama and risk, but still on an emotional level to, to be able to talk like people knew who this guy was and to.

For them to speak freely and for him to come in and say, I don't know shit about cars. Right? Which, which is like one, one of the things that I admired about his approach was, I don't know. Why are you asking me? I'm the last person who should ask.

Jennifer: Yeah, exactly.

Howie Jacobson: I.

Jennifer: Yeah, he, I mean, he had this way of, you know, he had these. know, weekly meetings that he would have, you know, with his direct reports. And one of the signals that he was sending was that, you know, this is a different culture. We're going to do things differently. And the way we're gonna show part of that is that when you have this weekly meeting, you get to invite a guest. And so in these weekly meetings, there were people in the room who maybe weren't part of that organization, weren't part of that, you know, different, you know, that operating unit. Um, maybe they were from the outside. And so you had people in there who were watching and observing and seeing how things were happening and. You know, Alan was very much like that, right? He, he was not gonna be the one to stand up and say, oh, this is how we should fix this and this and this. His approach was more, oh, well Bernie is having that problem. You know, who, who might be able to help Bernie with that problem? Right? So he's inviting the group of people to start to think about.

How can they support each other and how can they help each other solve these problems? You know, he tells the story of the liftgate issue out in Oakville where, you know, there was a problem with the Liftgate issue and the, you know, the line had actually stopped running. Now, as you know, in the car business, if the line stops running, that's millions of dollars, you know, per second that are being lost.

It's a big deal. So you wanna get that line back up and running as soon as quickly as possible. and so. You know, immediately in the room when he said that there were four people that said, oh, well, you know, my engineers have looked at a problem like that before. I'm gonna make sure we get them out to Oakville and help you out.

You know, another one said, oh, I know that we can solve this and this and this, so you know, I'm gonna get through those results of what we did before and that'll help you fix this problem. So people were actually coming to support each other in a culture of working together, which was not the culture that was there before Alan got there. yes, there were people that weren't willing to do that, and Alan was of the opinion that, oh, well, you know, is how we're operating now and these are the principles and practices that we have, and everyone is expected to, you know, agree to these. Um, but if this doesn't work for you, that's okay. You know, we think that you're gonna be happier elsewhere. And so there was an imitation to the person that, you know, essentially they weren't being told that they had to leave, but they were being. they were being no let, they were being advised in a very kind way that they had a choice to make and they could choose to stay and they could operate in the new culture with the new behaviors that were expected, or they could leave and find somewhere that would be more comfortable for them. Very,

Howie Jacobson: Yeah. And I think this speaks to, sorry, go ahead.

Jennifer: I was just gonna say, very few people left actually.

Howie Jacobson: Uh, and I think you know, this, this, this speaks to, I think one, one of the. Concerns or criticisms of, like you mentioned kumbaya, that that showing up this way makes you a doormat? Um, one of the thing, I, I think the phrase that I remember was sort of that Alan had zero tolerance for deviation, right. From the practices and principles.

So that's, that's not someone who gets walked on.

Jennifer: No, absolutely not. I, I think that sometimes people interpret the kindness or, you know, the smiling or the affableness of Alan as, as potentially a weakness and that he's not a strong leader. could not be farther from the truth. You know, there was one of the, one of the principles and practices was we don't make jokes about other people jokes aren't funny and it destroys trust between people.

It destroys the culture. And you know, he has a whole list of these things, you know, that were put up on the wall. We actually had, on our badges, we had one Ford, which was our, which was our motto at the time, right? And on the back, the Ford was spelled out and it had the behaviors, you know, from these principles of practices that we were expected to demonstrate. we had that on our badge and we wore that all the time. Right? Because you had to badge it and badge out and you know, get into the buildings and things. And it was always on a one of those, like, um, I dunno what you call it, like a lanyard that like, you know, stretches

Howie Jacobson: Like the retractable

Jennifer: Like that little attractable circle thing. Yeah. So they were always,

Howie Jacobson: uhhuh.

Jennifer: had those, so you had it all the time and all you had to do was look at it if you couldn't remember what it was. And people were consistently. Referring back to this, you know, because it became an artifact of the new culture, you know? So not only was it something that was talked about, it was written down and it was visible and it was tangible.

And that was also one of the ways that Alan was able to, in fact, this transformation and a massive company that had been operating in such a different way for so many decades before.

Howie Jacobson: Hmm. Yeah. Lucky for him. It wasn't Mitsubishi or way too many.

Jennifer: Yeah.

Howie Jacobson: Um, so I, I wanna come back to you. So you are working for you. You discover these. This way of being a leader and how rare it is. You go back to get your PhD and now you're out in the world. Are you, are you still working at Ford in that capacity or are you, now you hung up your own shingle as a coach and consultant and, and you're like looking at normal people trying to turn them into Alan.

Is that kind of like how you, how you went out into the world?

Jennifer: Um, not exactly. So I had a little, I had a little stint in there where, um, I got recruited away from Ford to go work at Deloitte Consulting. So I was at Deloitte

Howie Jacobson: see.

Howie Jacobson: Gotcha. So, so with, with the work at Deloitte, I, I'm imagining that, that people hired Deloitte very much for strategy.

Jennifer: Mm-hmm.

Howie Jacobson: Right. For sort of nuts and bolts stuff and a little bit less for the touchy feely, right? The human, like, I, I don't know that people go, you know, we need, we need to be more human. Let's bring in Deloitte, right?

Like, that's not How, so, so you came, you, you had to work on projects that involved sort of. You know, strategic considerations, implementations, objectives, timelines, Gantt charts, all that. How did you infuse human into that work? And, you know, did you, and did it take a while and did you get more, more and more confident as.

You saw it adding value, like how I, I, I, I'm, 'cause I, I wonder about this for myself because there's this little voice in my head saying, you know, helping people be nicer to each other, which is, you know, like the shorthand for how I think about my work isn't hard. Like somebody who's like, let's put together your, you know, the, the plan for this and the strategy for that, and the execution document for the third thing.

So like the, like I'm asking this almost from a place of a little bit of self-doubt. Like, is this really that important? Like how did you navigate that?

Jennifer: Yeah. I think it's a fantastic question, and I think it's one that more organizations should be asking. So my work at Deloitte was in the human capital practice. So Deloitte at the time was structured into three areas.

Howie Jacobson: I.

Jennifer: strategy and ops, we had human capital and we had technology. So my area was in the human capital space, but I spanned.

Strategy to execution on technology projects, on strategy projects, on culture projects, on finance, transformation projects. So I was always working on something that involved some type of strategy, but it had a people component to it. Obviously, right, because that's what we have in our organizations. We have people, so we know from a transformation and change standpoint that the most often reason why transformation and change fails is because there is no people component. We may have the greatest strategy in the world, and we may have the best roadmap and the best execution plan, but if we haven't prepared the people to go on that journey of change, it will fail. And that's what we see most often in organizations. So my work was, was around helping organizations figure out what the strategy is and then aligning their people strategy with that transformation strategy to help them be successful at the change that they were trying to implement.

Howie Jacobson: Gotcha. So, so, um, people, strategy is still strategy and then you've got people. Right. So what did, what, what were your experiences when you're like, you know, like, this stuff seems so obvious right? To you and to me and the people we hang out with. Like, you know, be nice, be listen to people, understand them, make sure they matter.

And yet you're going into a world in which you, you've said, we, we've, we've unlearned all those things, or we, or we've learned. We've learned competing behaviors. So what was it like to kind of go in and like, you know, come in with your angel wings that you want to hand out and finding that people didn't have the capacity or the interest or the, uh, self-confidence to, to start wearing them.

Jennifer: Mm-hmm. I think the very, the very first step that it takes is awareness. So if you don't know what you don't know, there's no way that you can do anything different.

Howie Jacobson: Mm-hmm.

Jennifer: So first and foremost, when you're coming into an organization and they're asking to change and they have all these plans, and they have these deadlines, and they have this and that, and then you ask them, well, what have you told your people about the change? A lot of times there were question marks, like they would look at you like a deer in the headlights and go, what?

Well, we're just changing, so. How do you expect someone to buy into a change for, for lack of a better term, if they don't even know what's going on? So, so often, you know, the strategy around the transformation was a technical strategy. There was lacking this focus on. Why are we changing? What is changing?

How does it impact the person that is going to have to deal with doing their job differently after this change? How do we sustain this change in a way that makes it, um, self-sustaining? Right? How do we get employees to be motivated about this change? What's in it for them? So really looking at it from that human element. Is extremely critical, and it's not just being nice and being kind and being understanding and you know, making them feel like they matter. It's more around, there's a very structured approach to people in, engaging them in hearts and minds, and then getting them to behave in a different way. Because what you're really talking about with change and transformation is you're talking about changing people's behavior in order to change behavior, you need to change mindset and thinking. And in order to change thinking, you have to change awareness.

Howie Jacobson: Hmm.

Jennifer: So you have to unlearn a whole lot before you gain awareness. That was my,

Howie Jacobson: So I'm thinking about this. Yeah, thank you. I'm thinking about that from sort of a neurological perspective that, you know, if I have to change.

Jennifer: Mm-hmm.

Howie Jacobson: You know, and the, and the, I think the key words in that phrase is have to, right? Like I've just gotten back a, a medical report or, you know, my, a person close to me informs me that, you know, this isn't okay.

Right. And, and so once I identify like the, that I need to change, I focus on the gap and it puts me into a kind of a fight or flight. And I'm wondering if that feels that way, sort of organizationally, like. You know, why are we doing this change? Um, and it almost like it. Why isn't it? Why isn't it done yesterday already?

And that can, that can sort of like defeat. You know, you write in the, in the, in the book about sort of, you know, the, the, where the blood flows in your brain. Is it to, you know, is it an emotional hijack or is it in the, the thinking part?

Jennifer: Right, right, right. You know, if I, if I think back to, you know, example of this, when I was at Ford, you know, we had, uh, Mark Fields come on and do a webinar town hall, right. That everyone was watching from their desks, and the very first thing Mark said was, if we don't change, we will die. And I still remember that, you know, 15, 16, 17 years later.

I mean, I remember that phrase because it was such a strong statement.

Howie Jacobson: Mm-hmm.

Jennifer: oh my gosh, what does he mean? Like, we're gonna die. What does that mean? And so, like you said, putting you into fight or flight, yes, it may have put some people into fight or flight or freeze modes, what it also did was it said, Hey. Things need to be different. We have an opportunity to make things different. How are we going to affect this transformation so that we can survive? And what's in it for you if we survive? Well, you get to keep your job, you get to keep a roof over your head. You get to keep a paycheck coming in, right? And for a lot of people, that's a very strong motivator. Um.

Howie Jacobson: Hmm.

Jennifer: So thinking through the transformation, you know, sometimes semantics is also part of this, right? ha you get this bad report from your doctor. Oh, I have to change this, I have to do that. Well, what about if you said to yourself, I get the opportunity to shift how this next chapter in my life is going to look. That is a very different mindset and a very different perspective on the behaviors and the thinking that you may need to adopt to go forward. And if you look at human behavior and motivation, you know, even from a very early age, you know, a 2-year-old right? Telling them they have to do something because of X, Y, and Z, like they're gonna resist.

They don't wanna do that. Right. So you're the we're it's, it's wired in us. That way. But if you give them the option, well, you could have this or you could have that, which choice would you prefer? Right? Then they feel like they have agency and they don't have the resistance there. semantics and lp, there's, you know, there's some, there's some pieces of that going on here as well.

But I would say it also speaks to the psyche and how we perceive threats versus how we perceive opportunity.

Howie Jacobson: Hmm. So I'm hearing you say that, that, that Mark Shield's, uh, webinar was not ineffective. Instead of getting everyone attention and shaking them, um, I'm assuming he didn't end the webinar or the process didn't end on that note.

Jennifer: actually

Howie Jacobson: Right. So, uh, like I remember when, when I was first, um, studying organizational dynamics and I was working for Peter Bregman in the.

The last millennium. Um, one of the phrases, I can't remember what book it's from, is like, but people don't change 'cause they see the lights, they change 'cause they feel the heat. Um, and, and so, so that, you know, so I could think there, there's a place for, oh look, a lion, maybe we should run away.

Jennifer: yes.

Howie Jacobson: Uh, but it turns out that that organizational change strategy is not the same as defending yourself against a predator, right?

It really is about discovering opportunity.

Jennifer: Right, right. Now, if you want to get people to pay attention, right, and, and realize, oh, there's something different here. There's something that I need to pay attention to here. Then yes. Maybe you start out a speech like that, right? Oh, we need a change or we will die. That definitely gets attention and it sends the signal that something is different in this ecosystem right now, and because of how we are wired, right from prehistoric times, like, you better run faster.

You're gonna be the one eaten. it's coming from that, oh, we're gonna pay attention now. He gets your attention, and then he starts to move into the conversation where it's explaining and helping people feel more secure.

Howie Jacobson: Mm-hmm. So, so I'm curious, uh, you know, back to Ford, um, so there's, there was a, you know, big three right in Detroit. And so this one, Ford, and we are in this together. How far did the. The ness extend. Was it like, we are going to compete and crush? Um, you know, gm, uh, uh, I, now I'm blanking on the other one.

Jennifer: Uh, Chris.

Howie Jacobson: Uh, right.

Are we going to

Jennifer: At the time it was

Howie Jacobson: Chrysler?

Jennifer: but now it's, it's, it's been, it's been many different things since then. So we'll just put that as.

Howie Jacobson: Right. That's why I'm, yeah. I don't even know the name of the holding companies anymore. Uh, I was gonna say Chevy, but they were, they were always gm. Um. Right. But like, you know, is, is does that work to kind of create this culture of love and humanity and regard in, in competition with those bastards? Or how did, how did that play out?

Jennifer: Well, I will

Howie Jacobson: I.

Jennifer: that, you know, when Alan would talk about this, you know, he was talking about all of us internally at the company. But he was also talking about externally, all of our stakeholders, So people who are, you know, our customers, people that were purchasing the vehicles to keep their families safe.

He was talking about our stakeholders who, you know, were, were stockholders, right? Who owned part of the company. So when he talked about this as a working together and us, and being one Ford, he really meant, you know, everyone inside and all of the stakeholders. Now, you know. I think Alan would be, um, you know, the first to say that, you know, he was leaving the company and he wanted the company to be successful. Um, and, and that meant that, you know, if we did better than the other two companies, then, you know, that was, that was what happened. Um, and that was in fact exactly what happened. So I, I wouldn't say that, you know, it was at the expense of the other companies, but I would definitely say that it was, um. An outcome of the principles and practices that he had put in place, focusing on making it better for all stakeholders, not just employees.

Howie Jacobson: Gotcha. So let's, let's talk about the book. Uh, so you're, you're, you're, you're, you're big into acronyms, which, which makes it easy to, to remember. Um, so human is not just our species, right? It's all, it's also an acronym. So can you kinda give us the, the five, the five parts of human.

Jennifer: Sure. So humans, so the Humans framework is a framework that I have introduced in the talk about. How leaders can start to shift, where they place their focus in leading, right? So the principles and practices of effective human leadership start with this human framework. So there are six dimensions to the framework, plus a supplemental dimension that holds everything together.

So

Howie Jacobson: Oh,

Jennifer: there are,

Howie Jacobson: I forgot the s.

Jennifer: so H stands for hearing. So what do we, what are we actually hearing people tell us? Um, what are they saying, right? And what are they saying? Not only with their, their verbal language, but what are the, what is their body language telling us? Right? What are their facial expressions telling us?

Um, what is the tone of their voice saying? Right. Like you alluded to earlier when we were talking, oh well you said something about, you know, being here in Texas and you know, trying it out, but it didn't really sound like that was convincing in what you wanted to do. Right? So you picked up on that, that nonverbal um, language.

Howie Jacobson: Hm.

Jennifer: hearing is the first dimension of the framework. The second dimension of the framework is understanding. So it's one thing to speak to someone else. Um, it's a completely other thing to make sure that they have understood what the message is that you intended to convey. And so understanding, you know, there are multiple levels of understanding and the book goes into some of those.

So that's the under, that's the you and the framework. So M stands for mattering, right? How do we make people feel, um, that they matter? How do we help them understand that they are important? Um. The A stands for appreciating, How do we show people that we appreciate them? How do we help them feel appreciated? What are the ways in which they prefer to be appreciated? Right? Because people don't have the same ways that they want to be appreciated. You. How? We may prefer a big. Public sign in Times Square saying, Hey, thanks Howie, we appreciate the job that you did. Right? Um, another person may only want like a private, you know, mention around the water cooler.

Hey, I really appreciate the job that you did yesterday. Um.

Howie Jacobson: Hmm.

Jennifer: And the thing with appreciation is that it's really important to specify what you're appreciating about the person so they know what it is that was important, and why they are mattered and why they've, they're valued. Um, the n in the framework stands for inspiring. this is around how do you rally people around the vision that you have? How do you get them to, um. Buy into that vision, how do you inspire them to move forward, um, with this shared understanding? And then the s stands for seeing, so how do you help people feel seen? How do you see other people? Um, and so those are the dimensions of the framework. Now the framework is held together by. Relationships. So when you see the

Howie Jacobson: Mm-hmm.

Jennifer: in the book, you see that there are positive and negative at the top of the model, and then you have relationship that is connecting it at the bottom right around it. So relationships have the ability to either level up dimensions or. You know, make them go in the other opposite direction. That's why it's encircled by the relationships dimension. And so when we talk about relationships, we're talking about how do we, how do we interact with the others? What are the cultural dimensions of us interacting with people in the organization? How do, what importance do we place on getting to know the people that we work with? we know what's important to them? we know what motivates them? Because you and I both know that as leaders, we can't motivate anyone to do anything. The only thing we can do is create the conditions that motivate people feel like they have agency and they are empowered to do the things that need to be done. So

Howie Jacobson: Mm-hmm.

Jennifer: have the glue that hold the humans framework together, and they're also the vehicle by which work gets done and how we deliver results. we don't have relationships in organizations, we don't get any work done. So that is the humans framework that I introduced. In the book, there is a chapter that is dedicated to each one of those dimensions of the framework. And there is a story that is told about each of those dimensions in each chapter so that readers can see does this actually look like in practice? if I were to try to do this myself, what would maybe be some of the beha actions and behaviors and beliefs that I need to be able to impact in that way?

Howie Jacobson: Right, so before, before you get to those chapters, you have a self test.

Jennifer: Yes,

Howie Jacobson: And, and, and I took the self test and I was like, stratospherically wonderful. By my own, right? So I, I, I, you know, I imagine there's kind, there's kind of a self scoring bias, right? That, that if, if, you know, you had 12 of my closest friends and family members.

Do the test on my behalf, the score might be different. Um, how, how do you intro, how do you use that tool? Um, you know, and I know you're a stakeholder centered, trained coach, me, meaning that other people's feedback is sort of the. The, you know, the lifeblood of the transformational process. So how, how do you think about, you know, like me thinking, oh, I'm terrific on everything.

I'm such a great guy and, and, and, you know, almost, you know, certainly like highly delusional in my own self opinion, I.

Jennifer: Well, you know, Howie, we know from research that people are typically, they wildly overestimate their abilities. the way we tend to, you know, level that out is we get perspectives from the people around them. So. The

Howie Jacobson: Uhhuh?

Jennifer: Index that you took, um, it's a paper

Howie Jacobson: Mm-hmm.

Jennifer: the, in the book. Um, but there is also an online version.

And so for people who are listening, they're welcome to go to my website. It's dr jennifer nash.com/hi.

Howie Jacobson: Dr. Or

Jennifer: Uh, it's.

Howie Jacobson: D? Doctor? Is Dr.

Jennifer: It's Dr Jennifer nash.com/ HI, which stands for Human Leader Index. There's also a QR code in the book that they can scan and it'll take 'em right to the website. and it's complimentary. And they can self-assess just like you did, and then they get a report of their results. Now, for people who are interested in taking that one level further, they are able to do a 360 version of that. That is a paid option, and you can send it to 12 of your best. These and they can then figure out, help you understand where does your measurement fall versus where does their aggregate score fall.

And then where there are

Howie Jacobson: Hmm.

Jennifer: or where there is dissonance will help you start to understand where are some of the places that I may need to start looking to understand why there was a difference and what I can do to shift that behavior.

Howie Jacobson: Hmm. I bet. I bet the areas of the greatest. Gap. The greatest divergence are probably where there's the most, uh, juice for awareness. Right.

Jennifer: yes. Yes, there

Howie Jacobson: Uh,

Jennifer: Yeah. So that is, that is also on my website, but it is not a, it is not a free option. That is something that is paid and it has a different link. So when you go to the HLI itself, that is just the report for an individual to take, just like you did.

Howie Jacobson: gotcha,

Jennifer: Mm-hmm.

Howie Jacobson: Um.

I'm, look, I'm, I'm looking at these, seeing where my, my heart wants to go here, I guess. Um, one, one question, and this is in my mind because I had a two hour conversation with a friend. Who, uh, in his fifties discovered that he is autistic. And, um, and, and we were talking about like what that, what that discovery gave him in terms of understanding himself and not feeling guilty about, you know, like what he said was like, he was often, he made to feel like he was the asshole and.

And I gotta say like a lot of the behaviors like hearing, understanding, appreciating, like he would, he, he might not have engaged in those and, and in times in positions of leadership. And I'm curious, so this is, you know, it's a beautiful framework and I want everyone around me to be doing this. And yet is there a danger that it's going to, you know, create a normalcy that pathologizes people who are outside of.

Uh, of these behaviors, like for example, when you're listening, like looking people in the eye is a, is a, you know, very concrete example that, that, you know, people on this autistic people can often not be able to take it in and still and still function. So I'm curious, have you come across that or what are your thoughts?

Jennifer: So is the question, how do neurodivergent people use the framework effectively?

Howie Jacobson: Um, that's a good question. I don't, I don't, yeah, I don't, I don't know that I arrived at one, but just that it, it feels like, you know, if I were just to go in without a deep understanding and just say, everyone should be like this, that it might be disrespectful, it might be pathologizing and. Uh, you know, is it true, right?

That, that, that are, you know, what's what, where is there room for different flavors or understandings that not everyone is going to hear and be understood and make you feel mattered in this may feel you feel like you matter in the same way. So I'm not even sure what the question is. It, uh, you know, discuss.

Jennifer: so I, I think what I'm hearing you say is, is there flexibility in how this framework is interpreted and how it is applied? And for people who are neurodivergent, is there a way that they can leverage this framework in a way that could help them show up in a way that would, they would be comfortable with? And that if others are using the framework for a person who, to a person who is neurodivergent. Is there a way that they can incorporate that to more aware of what's happening and interpret it in a way that it includes that? So I think what I'm hearing

Howie Jacobson: Yeah,

Jennifer: is there a way that this framework can be inclusive, um, for people who are,

Howie Jacobson: yeah, yeah. Let's pretend that I asked that very question.

Jennifer: Alright. Yes. And my answer would be yes. So I think there are opportunities on both sides. Right. So someone is neurodivergent. Sometimes they are challenged with direct eye to eye contact, right? I have a niece who is in that way, so. I know that about her because I know her, right? But if I came across someone who, you know, maybe had some challenges with looking me directly in the eye, you know, it would come to my mind that, oh, perhaps there is something with this person that is causing them discomfort with looking at me directly.

Right? and so in that way, I've already jumped to the understanding space of. There's something else happening here that I need to be aware of and incorporate that into my behavior and my interpretation of what I am seeing in front of me. Right.

Howie Jacobson: Hmm.

Jennifer: for the neurodivergent person, if they want to use this framework, you know, sometimes there are some social cues that they may miss, right?

We know that from, from neurodivergent because of how their brain works. And so pointing out some of these things can vary directly, can be helpful for a neurodivergent person because they're not aware that it's even happening. Right. So giving them the descriptions of this, giving them an understanding of this is what it would look like or feel like or sound like if you were helping someone feel understood so that they can have a comprehension of that be prepared going in to use that dimension of the framework. So I think there are ways to use this and make the framework inclusive for many different people that are operating with, you know, very unique characteristics.

Howie Jacobson: Great. Thank you. Thank you. So now you, you do a 360 on someone and now you're their coach.

Jennifer: Mm-hmm.

Howie Jacobson: And there are inevitably gonna be some gaps. And for the people that you're brought into coach, maybe there are some significant gaps. And I know in, in the introduc, in the, um, when you talk about the scoring, even the very, very low scores are great.

You're, you're becoming self-aware. You're starting, there's no. There's no negative there, there's no shame. But when I get that score and I realize people think I, I'm this, but I've always thought I'm that, like, I could feel like the burning behind my eyes and the, and the, the heaviness in the chest and I can feel the, you know, some fear like I've been caught out and like, now everyone's gonna realize I'm actually a cockroach and not a person.

Like, like, you know, all sorts of stuff. How do you. Start working with someone for whom the self-awareness is kind of a shock.

Jennifer: Yes. So the very first thing I would do is invite them to take some time and space to digest what is in the report, right? The very first thing that's going to happen is that they will have an emotional reaction, like you described, right? And they will feel some of those data points in their body, right? They may get very angry, their temperature may go up, their face may flush. They may feel their heart rate increase. You know, they, in some ways, they feel like they're in fight or flight. And so

Howie Jacobson: Hmm.

Jennifer: information in the first place can be very shocking for some people. And so I always recommend when they get that kind of report and if there is that information in there that is, you know, emotionally upsetting for them, that they take the time to process those emotions. So we know that if we don't address emotions, they metastasize. And so taking that time and space to work through that emotion in whatever way works for them. Maybe they need to go for a run. Maybe they need to go go to a rage room and hit something and break things like maybe they just need to cry. Maybe they need to talk it out with their bestie for three hours on the phone, like whatever it is that works for them to work through and process that emotion is the right choice for them. Once they've processed that, then I invite them to schedule some time and we will do an actual debrief of what's in the report and talk through that from a space of, now that I've worked past all the emotion, now I can look at this, this with more of a clear mind really internalize what does this mean for me and, and why is it this way? Because unless we understand why it's that way, we have a hard time getting to. it's important to change it.

Howie Jacobson: Hmm. So when you're talking about the why, like at what level are we looking at like, you know, my, my, my coaching tends to want to be therapeutic, and so I, I always have to sort of, you know, recognize that my default is to talk about their mother. Right. You know me metaphorically, or actually, right. Like, you know, and, and a lot of the work I do is around helping people see those triggered behaviors as protective,

Jennifer: Right.

Howie Jacobson: right?

So how, how, when you help talking about how people see the why, what at what level are, are you doing it? That's, that's, you know, consistent with being a coach and not, you know, their shrink.

Jennifer: Right, exactly. So there is a line, and I think that that line is blurry for a lot of people, coaches in included. when you are looking at something that is help, it is getting in someone's way today. If you discover that, oh, this is rooted in historical trauma. Or this is rooted in something that is essentially in the past, right? Coaching looks at someone from where they are today and takes them to where they want to go. It's future focused, it's forward facing, but if you are actually digging into someone's past and it comes up that, oh, there was some type of trauma or depression or anxiety, or something that is typically a mental health type of issue, then that is something that should be focused on with their therapist. So. the why. If I say, oh, well what, you know, what, what do you think is causing this for you today? And they start talking about, oh, you know, when I was three, you know, I had this situation happen and my dad left and my mom was a drug addict. And you know, you. I'm like, well, you know what? This sounds like it.

There's actually some historical trauma there for you that needs to be resolved, and that is when I would be referring them out to a therapist because I'm not a licensed uh, counselor, I'm not able to help them with that. In this moment. I'm working on my license, but I don't have it yet. So that would be

Howie Jacobson: Mm-hmm.

Jennifer: I have to refer out for. Um, now. If they are able, if they have worked through that already and they understand where it came from, then they understand the why. we can talk about, well, what is the thinking that you have around this today? Right. What is it? What is the thinking that is causing that behavior today, and how is it getting in your way, and how is it holding you back again?

So focusing on the today and going forward. So that is, that is how I would make, personally, I would make the distinction and how ICF actually also asks me to make the distinction around coaching someone you know, from an ethical standpoint and a moral standpoint and a, and a legal and licensing standpoint. I.

Howie Jacobson: Gotcha. Gotcha. Very helpful. Um, what haven't I asked you that you would love to share?

Jennifer: I would say that we are at a crossroads right now. We have an opportunity change how we lead and why we lead to help work, be better for everyone. And I think AI is actually. A catalyst for us to do that, right? AI is going to take away a lot of the administrative work that we have to focus on as leaders, and so that frees

Howie Jacobson: Hmm.

What is our identity as a leader today? How is that different from before? And what do we want it to look like going forward? So we can make this world of work better for everyone, including ourselves, make it a place where we can be fully human and perform at our best and be at our best.

Howie Jacobson: I love that. Great, great closing. And now I want to invite you to let people know how they can follow you. Remi, remind them of the name of the book. How can people get more of you if they want to just learn or take the, take the assessment or, uh, hire you.

Jennifer: Sure, so people can find me at my website. It's Dr. Jennifer Nash dot com. That's Dr. Jennifer Nash dot com. they can also find information about the book. Um, they can purchase the book. It's be human, lead, human, how to connect people in performance. They can purchase that at any books, retailer. They can order it for you.

Amazon has it. I have it on my website. they can also take the free, the complimentary leadership assessment that we were talking about earlier. That's also on the website@drjennifernash.com slash hli. And I have tons of free resources out there for people to look at. They can subscribe to my LinkedIn newsletter. Um, I also have a Substack newsletter, so there are many opportunities to find me and follow me if they're interested in learning more about leadership in general and human leadership in specific.

Howie Jacobson: Awesome. All right. So Dr. Jennifer Nash dot com is kind of the one stop shop for everywhere else.

Jennifer: Mm-hmm.

Howie Jacobson: And, um, thank you so much for, for doing this work, for, for sharing, um, the message, spreading the light, and for taking the time to talk with me today.

Jennifer: Well, thank you so much for having me, Howie. This is wonderful. I so appreciate you.

Howie Jacobson: Awesome. All right, well stay, stay in touch and I'll let you know when this is up.

Jennifer: right. That sounds great. Thank you so much.

Howie Jacobson: Take care.

Jennifer: bye-Bye.

Dr Howie Jacobson: And that's a wrap. You can find the show notes with links to everything we talked about@plantyourself.com slash 6 2 7 in Movement News. I have been doing more heavy weightlifting and not a lot of running and cardio. I found this summer heat is really messing with my ability to, uh, stand up straight and not have all the blood drained from my head.

So I'm working on that, uh, training for. G-G-M-B-U-C-C, great Grand Masters Beach Ultimate Championships, which is gonna be in Sardinia. Uh, at the end of September. Looking forward to that and hoping I can get the cardio up before then, but it does feel good. Uh, Jay's got me doing heavier weights these days.

Uh, not just body weight, but uh, lifting actual iron kettlebells, dumbbells. And, uh, and of course the bands. And so I'm hoping that that kinda kind of helps stabilize core, doing a lot more core, also flutter kicks and planks, and we'll see if that pays off in the coming weeks as I train for this, uh, old man Ultimate tournament.

Um, that's about it for me, for now, as always, be well, my friends.