A 2013 study conducted by the Clayman Institute for Gender Research at Stanford University Showed that women are keenly aware of the rewards of visibility. They know that being noticed — for example, by interjecting during meetings and taking credit for accomplishments — is a conventional strategy for professional advancement. Still, to this day many women consciously reject this strategy. Instead, women employ “intentional invisibility” opting for risk-averse, conflict-avoidant strategies in the office. 

Another study found that in the field of science, close to 50% of black and Latina scientists are routinely mistaken for janitorial or administrative staff. This is why campaigns like “the more you see her” launched by NBC Universal in 2020 are so very important for women of color - because so often people who look like them are not visible in positions of authority and power. 

Listen is to this weeks episode as I talk with Janet Kafadar, a coach who works with Women of Color, helping them find the courage to be visible.

Drink of the Week: The Invisible Man

https://www.cocktailbuilder.com/recipe/invisible-man

This episode is sponsored by Nickerson, a full-service branding, marketing, and PR and communications agency with team members in Boston, LA, Miami, and NYC. https://nickersoncos.com/

Julie Brown:

Website- ​https://juliebrownbd.com/

Instagram- ​https://www.instagram.com/juliebrown_bd/

LinkedIn- ​https://www.linkedin.com/in/julie-brown-b6942817/

Youtube- ​https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIwWVdayM2mYXzR9JNLJ55Q

Janet Kafadar

https://www.janetkafadar.com

In order to get ahead, you have to be seen.

But for some being seen as harder than you might think.

Welcome to episode 79 of this shit works.

I am your host, Julie Brown.

And today I am joined by Janet a coach's coach working with women of color, helping

them find the courage to be visible.

This episode is sponsored by Nickerson.

A full service, branding, marketing PR and communications agency

with team members in Boston, Los Angeles, Miami and New York city.

Visit them.

At Nickerson C O s.com.

And American bar association commission on women in the profession found that

women of color experience, a veritable, double whammy of gender and race.

Unlike white women, or even men of color who only have one of these characteristics

to overcome gender or race.

Women of color may face exclusion from informal networks.

Inadequate institutional support and challenges to their

authority and credibility.

The often feel isolated and alienated.

Sometimes even from other women.

According to McKinsey white women hold only 19% of C-suite positions, but

women of color hold only 4% of them.

Currently, there are no African-American women leading a fortune 500 company.

This same study found that in the field of science close to 50% of

black and Latino scientists were routinely mistaken for janitorial.

Or administrative staff.

This is why campaigns, like the more you see her.

Launched by NBC universal in 2020 are so very important for women of color because

so often people who look like them are not visible in positions of authority.

And power.

This is why I have asked Janet Kaphar to join us all the way from Australia.

Because we need to have these conversations, not just here

on this podcast, but in all of our places of business,

Janet, welcome to the podcast.

Well, thank you so much.

I love that.

Beautiful.

That's really a, this really speaks so much to the work that I do.

And recognizing even more like, I know that every day, but it's so important.

So important to thank you.

audio_only_16778242_Julie_Brown: You're welcome.

You decided to be a visibility coach after you had

your own struggles with being seen and putting yourself out there.

Can you tell us a little bit about what you struggled with

and then how you overcame that?

yeah, sure.

So my biggest struggle was really.

Um, it wasn't the determination that was missing.

That wasn't the thing that was missing for me.

I live in Australia.

I'm a black woman, myself originally from London.

I don't really, there's not that many black people here in Australia whatsoever.

That's not the issue, but it was more so recognizing, especially I want to start

a business and I want to stop because it's like almost eight years ago now.

No one looks like me when sounds like me.

Okay, that's fine.

I still got the support I needed.

It still is able to move forward, still got through it, but it's only really in

the last three years that I've recognized that I was still hiding a lot of the time.

Still, really scared to fully show up, you know, still scared to really

put myself out there and recognizing that there really wasn't anyone

out there that was representing me.

Um, unless it's like.

Serena Williams or Michelle Obama.

Like, that's great, but no one that like a regular check like me, you

know, that I could look up to that was really forging a path ahead for me.

And I recognized.

And so with that, then I was just like, I've got to, I have got to step up.

Right.

I've got to step up and we're doing that same research.

Like you read there, recognizing that this so much more.

To it.

And there was a reason why there aren't as many successful coaches out there.

And I recognize that these ladies can support our community, especially the

black community to really help them, help them right across the board.

And, but there's no one, there's no representation out

there, but I can see that.

So this that's my, yeah, that's really how I've kind of moved forward with it.

So you realized there's, there's no one who looks like me or sounds like me.

There was no black women with English accents in Australia, do it, you

know, but, so there's something to say for, okay, I recognize this.

I should change

this,

but what are, what did you do to make those changes?

You don't go from recognizing it to changing it in one step.

So what were your hurdles getting over you, maybe your own insecurities

about putting yourself out there?

Because even I I'm, I'm a white woman in America and I still have

a hard time putting my face and my voice out there because I'm afraid.

You know, I don't know.

Just people won't like pretty to shit.

Like it's hard.

It's hard.

So what were like, did you do little baby steps or would you realize whole-hog,

I'm going in.

no, no.

It was baby steps, baby steps, all the way.

Yeah.

When you've got a thread on your t-shirt and you know, she, like

you pull it it a little bit.

I really should leave that alone.

Right.

That's the, that's the, one of the things that I should really leave

that alone because if I pull it, it like it's all going to come out and it

was that kind of, that kind of thing.

I would leave it for a little bit and have the thought like, oh, I'm scared.

I don't want to put my self out there.

Way back when at the very beginning of my journey, it was

more like, well, all my coworkers.

What will, what will people say?

What my family think about me, who am I to do this?

All of the judgment, which all women right.

Suffer with and I come up against, but it was those small shifts and

recognizing that that's happening.

But then also recognizing that Ashley I'm here to help.

Right.

And recognizing that whatever I'm feeling is bigger than me.

And I think that was the thing that helped push me forward.

So when I would have those moments of like doubt or who am

I to do this, I can't do this.

This shit's hard.

Oh my God.

You know, all of those moments where like English, you just want to either Chuck the

computer out the window, or you literally want to kind of put the ball recognizing

that actually there's someone out there.

That needs me right now, this either having some sort of moments, a breakdown,

an emotional, whatever it is that person is in that state of mind, so I

need to speak up now and be visible for them now, so that when they find me.

That message or whatever it is, will land for them.

And I think that was the biggest shift for me removing myself from

the equation, because we can't be all caught up in our feelings.

I like that it's all about.

Yeah.

But actually when I realized what I really had to think about, it's not about.

It's about really stepping up to be there, for my community and being there for my.

In your working with women of color, helping them be more visible.

Is there a number one thing that holds women of color back from being

visible or are there a number of things.

There's a number of different things.

But one of the things that does come up is when my clients, who are

coaches stepping up to be coaches and step into that, right, they've

already gone through the protocol.

They're all the certifications.

But the biggest thing that I see is either some sort of past experience.

Well past trauma or a work situation or something that happened in their

life that then shows up and actually stops them from being visible.

For example, I have a client, I had a client, we have, we're having a

coaching call and she said, I'm really scared to put my freebie out there.

I know will really help.

And she's kind of just going around the houses a little bit.

Was that what's going on?

And so we had deeper conversation.

And so she said that Ashley, she scared to put it out there.

She's scared to put the, put her freebie out there because when she used to be a

hairstylist and her boss would always say to her, oh, there you go selling again.

And that same story was playing in her head.

Now, when she's coming up to them to be a coach and put herself out there to serve.

That same story was repeating again and again, stopping her from being visible.

So it's almost if you pull back the layers as to why you suddenly hate social

media, or I don't want to put myself out there there's something underneath it.

That's connected to a past experience, a past trauma or whatever.

Is this helping you tell that story?

But almost always that's the thing.

And we have to get to the bottom of that first and then acknowledge that

that's there and then it makes it easier

How do you tease that out?

How do you tease out what is stopping someone from doing

something.

Um, so most of the time it's, um, recognize it's most the blankets.

There's always like a blanket.

Um, Phrase or term or something that's used.

I hate social media, right?

Or I don't like being on Facebook.

I think every single one of my concerts at that, all of them have

said that I don't like social media.

I don't like being on social media because it's just, there's too much.

I have to do, et cetera, et cetera.

But actually, if you think about it, why do you hate it?

What is it that you hate about it?

These are some of the questions and this is cannot ask themselves.

Why do you hate it?

What's the.

Is it the platform that you don't like, is it the, is it the

Instagram that you don't like?

Is it all the work that you have to do?

Is it actually, because you don't feel clear on who it is that you're serving.

Do you feel like you're putting stuff out there and nothing's coming with.

Yeah, I think it's coming back then.

That maybe means you're not actually clear on who you're serving, even

like the audience, the people that you're like Alicia, like

it goes those deeper and deeper.

Like let's literally dig deep dig.

If we don't like showing up in this way, was there something that , is

connected to when you are younger and experienced a time when.

You weren't allowed to say what you wanted to or share an opinion,

or literally, it's like an onion.

You just need to keep going deeper.

And it helps sometimes if it's someone else asking you, the questions

is a bit hard to kind of do it on your own, but you can get there.

I think one, one thing that I struggled with.

Put it, when I wanted to call myself an expert was the

kind of, who am I statement?

Well, my, to tell people what to do, who am I to write a book

who am I to have a podcast?

And so there was a lot, and I don't know, I think I probably must've

been said, that's probably a phrase that had been said to me as a child.

Who do you think you are?

Kind of thing, and I think you have to understand.

There's a lot of things in, in our narrative that we talk to ourselves

that really are in our own voices.

And they are the things that are holding us back, but unlike women

of color, you have real societal, things that are holding you back.

So w what do you think are success blocks , for women of color?

What is the main thing?

That I don't know that there are afraid of, or that is in real,

tangible success box for women of

color.

Yeah, I think it's, there's a number of different ones.

Goodness.

There's a representation is up there as one of them., and depending on the type of

business they're starting, there's either.

Gender bias, right.

Especially if this is startup, right.

And they're looking for funding.

I was reading an article on myth where black women looked out into

startups to try and get funding, and they weren't able to get

funding from middle-aged white guys.

They're like, no, they just couldn't get it.

So it was so interesting.

Only 2% of venture capital money goes to women.

So you can imagine if only 2% is going to women, how much of that

are white women going after money?

So it's gotta be next to nothing goes to women of

color.

Yes.

Yeah, exactly.

How do we get over?

How do women of color get money, get funding in for entrepreneurs

in the venture capital space?

I don't

really answer that.

I honestly don't know the answer to that either.

I tell him no, but there is a, um, there is a, now I don't remember her name.

There's a lady out there who does exactly this, another woman of color

who does provide like a space for.

Other women to come to, to be able to get access to funding without prejudice.

Right.

Without them having to feel like, oh my goodness, we're already going to

be turned away just by looking at us.

Like it's already a no.

So there is, I know there's some funding options available.

so going back to your question of the success blockers, I think

one of the things is almost women almost always starting in

their own way and their own book.

I can say that it sounds a representation it's down to this it's done, but actually

fundamentally at its core, it's that women always, we tend to stand our own way.

And the belief system is completely broken and thinking

that, oh, no, I can't do that.

I'm not worthy of doing that.

No, I can't do that.

I'll leave it to someone else.

Yeah.

And that if you don't have that at the starting line, there's nothing

So when people come to you and they are in that, they, I want

to do this, but I'm not sure I can.

How do you empower people to do that?

Because it is very difficult.

I mean, being an entrepreneur is not for the faint of heart.

Putting yourself in a public platform is not for the faint of heart.

How do you convince people that they can do it?

Um, I think it's, they have to believe in themselves.

They have to say yes to themselves.

It doesn't matter how many times I say it.

They've got to believe it.

And that's normally the point when they're like, I know I can do this.

I don't know how, or I just feel like I need the support to be able together and

that's my job, but they need to have that.

They have to say yes to themselves.

I don't know how I'm going to do this.

I don't know what it's going to look like, but I know that.

I have a bigger mission ahead of me.

I know that my work can impact people.

That's when they are ready to kind of take the bull by the horns, even though it's

scary as hell, even though they're like petrified and, oh my God, what am I doing?

But even if you scared to do this.

I really do want you to think about the person that needs you.

It comes back to what I said before.

Our work is bigger than us,

Sure

even if you think, oh, I just want to coach people.

I just want to consult.

I just want to do this little project over here and now your work at

some point will be bigger than you.

So hold that true.

Don't let that go.

Don't let that go, because that will be the thing that will like

literally drag you forward when you feel like, oh my God, I just want to

sit here and like cry eat two times.

W so one of the bad things about being visible is, there will be people

who have negative opinions of what you do, whether they're haters or whether they're

trolls or whether there are people who are just like, Who does she think she is?

, there will be those people.

And one of the things about putting yourself out there is you

have to be able to tolerate that.

So.

What's your advice for somebody who's just gotten their first negative comment

or so for me, when I give a speech, I always have,, a survey form afterwards.

And if there's a, if there's 500 people in the room, 499, people will say, I'm great.

And one person will say she's annoying.

And you know what?

I don't know why, but that one person who says she's annoying.

It, it like on the scales of justice, it shouldn't weigh the same as the

border 99, but somehow it does.

So how do you work with people to say yes, people will not like you?

Yes, that is okay.

How do you do that, with your clients?

I always say to them, what do you want everyone to do?

You want 150?

Really a hundred percent cause someone's straight up lion.

Do you really want 150?

Is that, what is that?

The world that you want to walk through, where everyone says, yes, you're amazing.

You're great.

And no one gives you any feedback or even possibly negative feedback, or, you

know, you get your haters, et cetera.

I, in the early stages of my business, I was very much so

I remember getting a comment.

I think it was inside of a Facebook group that someone said something even

just slightly like it wasn't like.

It was feedback.

Really, if I think about, I kind of remember what it

was and I crumbled inside.

But now over time, I have gotten better at it and.

I just brush it off.

Thank you for your feedback

I also think as well, that if you do have, you know, twelves or someone's

left a comment that you don't necessarily agree with, or you don't like.

Oh, you've ruffled.

Someone's feathers.

Well, they're starting a conversation.

I actually, that's a good thing.

Let's clap that up.

That's a good thing because you actually have something to say, that

has brought someone's attention.

They've actually come like Ashley.

I don't believe it let's have a conversation about it.

That's all good.

One of the things that I also find for back for many women of color

is that that actually scared to share their thoughts and opinions.

They don't want to, they don't want to come across as the angry black.

Yes.

I don't want it to actually say the thing that

they are really wanting to say.

So they hold back, whether it's in a career working in a corporate

or whatever, you're like, I know that I was that person, you know,

I would sit there and read, oh my God, that's not, we cannot do that.

I see that.

I just keep my mouth shut.

I'm sorry.

I'm just going to do my work.

Just get on with it.

But now when you are an entrepreneur or business owner, coach, consultant,

whatever, it's suddenly, you have to say what you think and have an opinion.

Ooh, it's hot.

And you put yourself out there and you have to say that that's what the

whole kind of visibility cycle kind of

So

that's, I'm so glad you said that because it is a societal thing

where when women speak up in meetings or speak their mind, or have an opinion.

When, if I say it I'm aggressive, if you say it, you're an angry black woman.

And I think.

That holds so many women back.

And I would love to know how you think that women can, especially women of color.

Cause you hear that term angry black woman all the time.

And it's so it's such a

Terrible.

term.

Like what?

I know that that's what is probably holding people back because

they don't want that label.

So how can.

Women's step into their power women of color, step into their

power to give their opinion to be heard because it is important.

Yeah, I think collectively, if everyone, if

we all take those steps, right.

I say what I think, I don't care.

People come from me, whatever.

Let's have the conversation.

Let's have the conversation like we are.

I think that's where it starts.

Right.

Having the conversation actually being, allowing yourself to say

what's on your mind, you can have a conversation or debate.

With, and it can't get maybe heated, but it's a conversation and a debate.

It's not me.

I might be getting angry.

I'm getting heated, but it's not an attack on that person.

I think a lot of people think that I caught you were attacking me.

I'm not attacking you.

I'm just saying.

What is in my heart.

Right.

And I think once we start, it becomes not, not normalized in some way.

Right.

Normalized for us to just mean you're jamming on this.

You sharing your thoughts, I'm sharing mine.

We can actually collectively move.

And then I think, that labeling, which is just awful.

Starts to slowly dissipate, and starts to just fold.

That's my hope that it will fall to the wayside and I think it's quite, even

this weekend, like Sunday football, um, uh, you know, event that was happening.

I was talking to someone for Monday.

And so this is the first time in my life in Australia, but actually

first time in my life as monks, a group of other white women will

having a conversation about race.

I have never had that before.

Never it moved on to.

To agenda and non binary because those couple of teachers there as

well, how they handle that, I've never had a conversation like that.

And it was so liberating.

I was like, oh my goodness, what is going on here?

Like, I love this.

It was so good.

And they were asking me like, have I experienced racism before?

And what's that like?

And I was able to share my thoughts.

It was just a conversation.

Like nothing.

He, like, it was just, I was like, oh my God.

It's like, wow, that's incredible.

Well, I think this conversation, I mean, this conversation that

we're having is about visibility on a lot of different levels.

Right, right,

I just think it's important.

How do you work with women?

If somebody says, I want to start my own coaching practice.

I know that I can help people in this area.

I just don't know exactly how to get myself out there.

How do they come to you and how do you work

audio_only_16778242_Julie_Brown: with them?

Yes.

At the very beginning, we don't look necessarily like at the feasibility

part, but there's always ways in which I'm slowly trying to get them more

confident in stepping into that because it's a gradual process starts at the

very beginning with actually what their own goals are, what they want

to get to, what do they want to do?

And then from there we can start looking at who is it that they want to serve.

I found that most of the problems that my clients have.

At the very beginning, so scared to be visible, fed, scared to

put them ourselves out there.

It comes down to confidence and actually understanding they are talking to

Yeah.

yeah.

Right.

Once they understand who they are speaking to.

it completely changes.

The conversation completely changes their own Headspace.

Then they feel like, oh my goodness, I can do this.

Then the belief comes into it, right?

The belief and the confidence to actually stand up for that person,

that group, that audience is there because they know they exist.

So once they do that, then.

get in to do small things inside of my Facebook.

My program's called nine to five to freedom.

And inside of that inside of our Facebook group, I tell them,

share with me what's going on.

I want you to do a live, do a live inside of the group, do a live,

even if you're testing it and you're putting your makeup on, I don't care.

I want you to find ways and just being more comfortable so you can be

more visible, be visible amongst this small group sisterhood here, right.

Of women who are just like you doing the same thing.

Show.

Tell us something that you're thinking of to do a video washer walking, and

then when they get to that point where they're ready to start sharing their

business or feel more confident with it, they're not coming out completely

raw and shaking or anything like that.

They're coming at it from a completely different place.

I constantly get them to do little things and little tasks and little visibility

opportunities to help them start stepping into that and to step into their power

and to step into their greatness.

And I think what you're offering is something that I talk

about a lot in networking use.

You're offering the people in the Facebook group and the people who

are taking your course, a peer group.

Hmm.

and it, is very important, just like everything else with

representation and visibility and under.

It's very important to have people who are going through a similar experience as you.

So you may all be launching different coaching practices and serving

different people, but the sheer experience of starting that company

and going through all of the same, feelings of, am I doing this right?

Is this the right thing?

Am I as successful as I should be?

Like, that's, that's invaluable that you provide a peer group for

people while they are learning.

Yes.

Yeah, absolutely.

Almost all of my clients have said all of them have said the biggest thing

that they love about the program.

Yes.

Working with me getting better.

They want to check is that community.

Yeah.

They love the community and sisterhood and the how the program is

set up is specifically for women of color.

So how can people find you?

Yeah, sure.

You can find me over at Janet's cafta.com and you can also find my

podcast, the truth about show where.

The truths about running a coaching business that actually

no one really talks about.

So you can find me that it's not a strategy show, five steps to

blah-blah-blah Instagram followers.

Now it's, actually, how do I manage my day job and my coaching business?

Things like that, how to spot my clients, like all of the things that you

really just wish someone had told you.

Yeah.

If there's a checklist for there's a go no on clients that is important because

rather have no clients and bad clients.

Yes, absolutely.

Yeah.

So like, things like that and just real, real conversations that

I wish that someone had told me

right.

Yeah, no, that's great.

All right.

I'm going to put links to the podcast, your website in the show.

I can check you out.

I think you have some free offerings on the website as well, but they

can do an advanced to get a taste of what it's like to work with you.,

but thank you so much for being here.

I loved this conversation.

It's great.

Thank you so much, Julie.

I really appreciate it.

audio_only_16778242_Julie_Brown: Okay, bye.

Bye

When I was growing up, I would hear people say, I don't

see color when I see people.

And I used to think that was a really nice thing to say, I've since learned

how detrimental it is to not see color.

Without recognizing someone's color.

I cannot begin to understand where they come from.

What systematic issues they face on a daily basis or

what I could learn from them.

Listening to Janet story and her feelings of recently being seen should

teach us all a lesson about why we need to have these conversations.

Why visibility is important and why it is so difficult for so many.

Uh, 2013 study conducted by the Clayman Institute of gender research

at Stanford university showed that the women in the study were keenly

aware of the rewards of visibility.

They knew that being noticed, for example, by interjecting, during meetings.

And taking credit for accomplishments.

Was it conventional strategy for professional advancement and still many

women consciously rejected that strategy.

Instead.

They opted for risk averse, conflict avoidant strategies within the office.

Women employed this intentional invisibility when they avoided

conflict with colleagues, softened their assertiveness with niceness

and just got stuff done by quietly, moving things forward without

drawing attention to themselves.

The consequence of this approach was that they often ended up feeling well-liked.

But under appreciated.

Why did the women choose this approach?

This study identified three motivators.

One to avoid conflict or backlash, meaning they were aware of

gender bias in the workplace and used intentional invisibility

to limit their exposure to it.

To, to feel authentic at work, meaning.

Being highly visible at work.

Felt awkward because other women were not doing it.

And three.

To balance professional and personal demands, meaning staying invisible at

work gave women more time and energy to fulfill their obligations at home.

I don't have all the answers.

I know what it's like to struggle with visibility, with how much

my face and my voice are out there for the masses to critique.

But like Janet said, I have to put that shit aside because I also know

that the work I do helps people that you listen to this podcast

because you get something out of it.

That when I stand on a stage and deliver a keynote, no matter how worried I am

about what I look like, someone in that audience needs to hear what I have to

say, because it will change their career.

This is why we have to keep doing it.

This is why we have to be visible.

We need to change the narrative and by narrative, I mean the literal narrative.

A study found that in us textbooks, a man's name on

average appears every four pages.

Uh, women, however, are only mentioned every 250.

Pages.

It's time to write a different story.

To turn the tables on the subject a little bit.

I found a cocktail this week called the invisible man.

Here's what you're going to need.

Two ounces of gin, a half an ounce of Brandy, a half an ounce of

triple sec, three ounces of ginger ale and a dash of orange juice.

Actually it says two dashes, orange juice.

Um, what you're going to do is add triple sec, Brandy gin and orange juice

to a highball glass filled with ice.

You're going to, just stir that a little bit and then just fill it

with that three ounces of ginger ale.

That's it.

That's all you need to make men invisible.

Apparently.

That's all for this week.

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And if you have any topics that you would like me to research and discuss,

please reach out to me and let me know.

I'd love to hear your ideas.

Until next week.