In this feasible episode, Jen Goldman, Founder of My Virtual COO, shares operational strategies for scaling teams. If you struggle with team frustration or management overload, you won't want to miss it.

You will discover:

- Why hiring aligned talent prevents management headaches in stage 3

- How to implement lean processes for efficient scaling

- How to implement lean processes for efficient scaling

This episode is ideal for for Founders, Owners, and CEOs in stage 3 of The Founder's Evolution. Not sure which stage you're in? Find out for free in less than 10 minutes at https://www.scalearchitects.com/founders/quiz

Jen Goldman brings 30 years of experience as a Business Transformist for Small Businesses. She has transformed hundreds and trained thousands of service businesses on how to scale up teams, profits, and clients through operational, skill, and mindset improvements. Jen’s expertise includes strategic business planning, staff and provider recalibration, change acceleration, tech integration optimization, Lean® process creation, and implementation and high adoption of operational efficiencies. Her philosophy includes Visualization, Productive Collaboration, 4W and 4Ps Purpose Documentation, and IDEOS ™.

Want to learn more about Jen Goldman's work at My Virtual COO? Check out her website at https://myvirtualcoo.com/

Mentioned in this episode:

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Founder's Quiz

Hello, hello and welcome. Welcome once again

to the start, scale and succeed podcast, the only podcast that

grows with you through all seven stages of your journey. As a

founder, I'm your host, Scott Ritzheimer, and this episode is

for all you reluctant managers out there, you know who you are.

I just actually had a call with a small business owner who was

ready to throw it all away. She was done. And like, with a

capital D, and she was so frustrated with the team that

she'd built. There were about 20 people at this point. They just

added several more, and that was the tipping point. And to be

honest, like they were super frustrated with her. And so she

had just had enough, and was asking for advice on how to

sell, because in a moment of, you know, just genuine honesty,

she shared that she was she had given up hope that it could get

any better than it currently was. And if you felt that way,

if you feel that way, it can get a whole lot better. In fact,

most folks who are in this position are just a couple turns

of the dial, and we're going to talk about one of those

important ones in this episode, from just a completely different

experience, completely different growth, and a whole lot of fun

and that with a capital F and so here to help us have a little

more hope, and for all the right reasons, is Jen Goldman, who

brings 30 years of experience as a business transformation. A

transformist for small businesses, she has helped

hundreds and 1000s of service businesses to learn how to scale

up teams, profit and clients through operational skill and

mindset improvements. Jen's experience includes strategic

business planning staff and provider recalibration, change,

acceleration, tech integration and optimization, lean process

creation and implementation and high adoption of operational

efficiencies. Her philosophy includes visualization, product

collaboration, the 4w and four P's, purpose documentation and

IDEO. She's here with us today. Jen, welcome to the show. Very

excited to have you on. A question for you coming out of

the gate here is, what would you say to the founder like her,

who's waking up pretty much every morning wondering what's

wrong with these people? How can a COO help?

Yeah. So first off, I hear you certainly, I'm a

business owner too, so I'm smiling with you, and I'm

feeling the pain. Secondly, to be perfect, there's a middle

person missing off the team, and so just to be as transparent as

possible, I think what you're missing is that COO or Chief of

Staff, and there is a slight difference between the two, but

we're going to blend them together today.

Yeah, I'm so glad you brought that up, and I

actually do want to separate those just momentarily, and then

we'll lump them together, because it was actually a

question that I had, and I didn't know if we'd be able to

get into it. But what do you mean by that? Because most folks

probably haven't had either. So in you as short as you can, I

know that's a lofty ambition, but what's the Chief of Staff?

How's that different than a COO?

Yeah, so a chief of staff is going to come in very

people oriented, bringing the team together, aligning and kind

of sit between you, the CEO, biz dev, and the team's day to day

operations. Okay, so, but they're going to lead with

people. A COO is going to lead with operational efficiencies.

So they're going to be a little more tech geeky. They're going

to be a little bit more into processes that kind of guide the

people they care about, the people, don't get me wrong, but

their their first and highest calling is more around systems

than it is around people.

Right, how do you know which one you need?

That's a great question. I think if you think

the culture is lacking, like, let's say you have turnover or

low retention, or everybody seems a little basically fried

out, I would say you need a Chief of Staff first, or

somebody that will put that first and then kind of come in

the unicorn. This is what everybody wants. I want it,

right? You want the Chief of Staff and the COO in one person,

yeah? So you can try for that if you want. But I would say again,

if culture is dragging, mood is dragging, everybody's just

struggling, bring in the Chief of Staff first, then bring in

like a COO mentality, or hopefully groom up from somebody

on the team.

Yeah, so let's talk a little bit about what

this COO role does. You talked about operational efficiency.

How does that role, that second in command in a COO mindset,

help a founder to scale? How's it different from what the

founder is doing themselves?

Well, first of all, they're the day to day, so the

founder gets to be especially if you're a biz dev founder, which

you understand you know more than anyone, right? If you're a

biz dev founder, and you get your energy from relationship

building outside of the office, outside of the company, with new

leads or referral sources, right then that COO is the one that

does in the office. They're the one that runs the team meetings.

They're the one that looks for ways to cut down on the workload

so your team can stay lean and not. Mean, but happy. And so

basically, as a COO, you're freed, like once they're

onboarded and ingrained, you're free to go out and do your thing

and bring out your vibe and sell and let the COO deal with the

day to day.

Yeah, one of the things that I've found, and

I'd probably venture to say it's the most important thing you

might push back on that. I'd be interested in your thoughts. But

it seems to me that the biggest contributor to success is trust

in the relationship between COO and CEO. You could have an

unreal COO, it's just a Jedi at all the process. But if you

don't trust them, you're going to go in and undermine every

last one of them. So I'd love to know from you, what do you see

as the role of trust, and how do you start to build that from

even before day one in an interview process?

Yeah, I'm a very big proponent of documentation.

So if you met any one of my quote, business friends, or even

our clients, they would understand trust comes not only

with the verbal but the written. So for example, you asked about

even before hiring, how do they cross communicate

asynchronously? Are they clear? Are they understandable? Do they

respond in a timely manner? All that matters in an interview

process, I don't know. I look at it, I care about it, because

that's how they're going to be when they're working with you,

hopefully, right? And and if they're poor in the interview

process, let me tell you, they're not going to fit, right?

We know that automatically, because you get better, not get

better, that's right. So things like that when they're on

boarded trust weekly meetings. Do they come prepared? Is there

a set agenda? Are they documenting what they're doing?

And I think also too, let me flip this the person that's

documenting that gives you dopamine hits, it makes you feel

jazzed up, and it gives you a list of saying, Hey, this is

what I just accomplished for the business. So there's a win on

both sides. It's not supposed to be a drag, right? That builds up

a ton of trust, another thing. And actually, somebody did this

to me. My wing man in the past, actually would write an end of

the week summary and say, These are the top five things I

accomplish. Obviously, she was getting the dopamine hit writing

it, but I automatically went into the weekend and a mindset

of this person is on it, and they care, and they're doing the

work.

That's so powerful, because it's the

weekends where we go crazy. Yeah, it's like, Monday morning.

I have some interesting calls, you know, and I get it, you

know, because it's you, you have a little time, you get into a

project, you kind of start poking around and stuff, and

then, boom, your whole weekend's gone because you just went down

19 rabbit trolls, of of what feels like awful. And so to be

able to just set that up and say, Hey, we're good, right?

Going into the weekend, we're good, it'll all be here. Monday

will be okay, is, I mean, from a life impact standpoint, it's

massive for founders.

No, I mean, that's we don't get our energy in those

moments, whether it's weekends or nights. We're not good

leaders, whether they're whatever direction we're heading

in. And that's where you get the owners that say, I'm out, like

I'm just done, like I'm burnt. And the reason they're they're

burning themselves out because they don't have, to be frank,

the systems in place, and they don't, and it's okay because you

don't know, like, this is stuff that I took for granted, and

then I realized most people don't know this, but that also

burns out the team. So then you're wondering, why, why are

these people on my team, and why are they not, like, kicking it

up, and you haven't given them a method or a way to communicate

up the ladder or to take credit and advocate. Yeah, yeah. So

systems matter in that in that instance.

And I love the way that you describe systems,

because most founders wouldn't describe them that way. They

describe it as like, prison. You know, go back and listen to it

again. It's just fantastic. There's a lot in there. I want

to kind of stay on this thread with CEOs, though. So let's say

someone's like, Yes, that's what we need. We need someone to

bring some more structure to this thing. I'd love to have

someone looking inside my business so I can look out on

the horizon and create some growth. What do they need to

look for in a great COO, what are some of the qualities that

you've seen make those folks successful?

I'm going to give the answer, but I know the

follow up question would be, well, Jen, what question would

you ask in an interview? So let me give the answer first. It's

called, I call it constellation thinking. So we believe in this

thing called the four Ps. And I made that up for myself, just to

be fair. And now I teach it that when we think of anything in a

business, we think about, how is it going to affect the people,

the productivity, the profits and the presence, internally and

externally. Okay, so public presence and internal presence.

So that's constellation thinking automatically that everything

you do has an impact and has a trickle effect. You need to see.

See that in that person. So you need to give them an instance or

a story and say, What did you take away from that story? And

they see if they connect the dots between all the areas of

the business and the impact of what was going on, yeah, you

need that. You need to know they can articulate it, right? I'm

trying to think what else you can ask them, but I do think

it's going think it's constellation. Thinking you're

looking for that. You're looking for an eagerness to learn. They

really have to be learning junkies. So and how they learn,

that's a big one. If they learn verbally, that's going to slow

you down, because the fact is, you don't have the time you're

busy on your calls or talking to clients, or for whatever you're

doing, CEO out there, leading, presenting, it doesn't whatever

your business is. You have to make sure they can learn without

the verbal Yeah. So it might be on their own, through video, on

their own, through written word, on their own, through some other

way. Are they resourceful? I think that's another, another

big one.

This idea of constellation thinking is is

really profound, because as you look back at like, who are the

hires that precede this? You don't really hire them for that,

right? You might hire them for one, maybe two of these, but

it's like you're you the first handful of folks you hire for

them to get stuff done and and to some extent, the less they're

worried about all the connection points, the more efficient or

effective they'll be in their particular role. But then that

leaves you like doing the juggling number, you know, and

trying to hang it all together. And so where I've seen folks

struggle here is that they don't apply that switch, right? They

try and bring in somebody else to solve what they think is a

single problem. I need someone to connect me in the team, or

something like that, and it's missing that constellation

thinking. That's very, very clever way of putting it, but

very, very important. So there's another thread to this that I'm

very interested in hearing what you have to say, and that is,

how do you figure out the the full time in person, virtual How

do you know what's right for you in terms of how much coo you

need and in what format?

Yeah, that's a great question. I would say most

of the time. I'll get let me give a real example. So we were

talking to a business that was sent to us through a connection

at strategic coach. And they were probably, I'm thinking,

looking down to think about maybe 1819, people on the team,

two owners, right? One was like the head of sales. One was

operations, and they were maxed out the story like you started

with, just by showing them all the different pieces. And we

show visuals, by the way, we're huge individuals around people

and systems and everything. We literally have a map for each

item the minute. We actually showed them that, in probably

under five minutes, they were like, Whoa. I didn't realize I

was thinking that way. No wonder my brain hurts trying to figure

this all out and make it better for the next scale up, we need a

full timer. They instantly knew that, because when they saw it,

they're like, I want that. So I think you don't know. Well, you

don't know Right? Like, you just know you're burning out, right?

Or you just you're tired of everything. That's one thing. If

you think that you want to touch on your people and your systems

and your processes, and, God, there's so much to go your

finances, like I want to project my profitability through all

this. Then I think you need a full timer. Then the question

is, do you do virtual or in house? Well, first of all,

depends on your company model. I'm going to tell you virtual

works with a quarterly visit in house, because, frankly, a lot

can get done, and you can get better talent, maybe not in your

backyard. And also budget matters, right? Like, maybe

you're in I'm in the Northeast. Let me tell you what people like

this make, right? They make a lot. Maybe you can't afford

that. So I would say to do the virtual and have them visit you

quarterly type of thing. If they're good communicators this

way, like we're even communicating and in written

it's not a problem. Yeah, it's your problem,

And it's it's so much better than just sitting

and waiting you, because really it's like, even if you don't

think that virtual is ideal with the end, with the tools, and not

just like zoom, but like the organizational tools that are

available to us. Now, it's remarkable what you can do

virtually. But on top of that, even if it were an intermediary

step toward a full time in person, whatever that might look

like, it's going to rapidly accelerate that process for you.

Would you agree?

Absolutely, I say to businesses, if you want to

continue to grow healthy. You need this role. You need it.

Otherwise you're going to burn out, you're going to miss and

make costly missteps, or you're going to stagnate the growth. I

can't tell you. This will pain you more than you know how many

businesses come and I'm starting to see them flat line. It's not

that maybe the revenues are down, but they're just not. To

uptick, and that's a bad you're already on the you're already in

a bad place. And so I just don't think, I think businesses I care

to make an impact and help more, whatever that is, whether it's

other businesses, individuals, I don't really care. But if you

want that, this is the role you need. So the difference between

hiring full time or doing a fractional I'd say, Listen, that

comes down to how you feel, what your budget is, and if you want

to dip your toe in, but dip your toe and I'm not, you know, and

people say, Oh, I'm self serving, because this is what I

do. I really, honestly, I really don't I love for people to reach

out to us. I'd love for people to reach out to anybody that's a

COO and do this, because when you do, you hear the great

stories, and you then you become the great story of success.

What, Yeah, what a way. So I want to end on

that note, but I've got one more question for you, and that is,

what is the biggest secret that you wish wasn't a secret at all?

What's that one thing you wish everybody watching or listening

today knew?

The one that came to mind is something you would

say, and not me, but I'll say it because I live in it. No, no,

no. Saying no is crucial, even when you're a startup and you

need that extra client, or you like that person you wanna add

them to the team? You gotta I think we all need to trust our

gut a little bit more and say no, because I think what happens

is we dilute the business and our own personal health. So if I

would leave it on that secret no is important right at the

beginning.

Oh, it's so important. It's so scary,

especially early on. It's terrifying, but it's terrifying

for all of us. And there's just a you're saying no, whether you

want to or not. It's just a question of whether you're doing

it or it's happening to you. So take the initiative and do it.

Jen, we could go on for a really long time and help a whole lot

of people doing it, I'm sure, but they can get a lot of help

by reaching out to you directly. How can folks find more out

about the work that you do and connect with you?

Yeah, if you just want to go to My Virtual COO,

we're there. We've got some freebies. Feel free to jump on

and then you can reach out to us if you want.

Fantastic, myvirtualcoo.com We'll get it in

the show notes for you so you don't have to go find it. Jen,

thanks for being on today. What a fun conversation. It's a

privilege and honor having you here for those of you who are

watching and listening, you know your time and attention mean the

world to us. I hope you got as much out of this conversation as

I know I did, and I cannot wait to see you next time. Take care.