Dive into an eye-opening episode of the Unshakable Habits podcast, where host Stephen Box and health coach Jonny Landels unpack the rarely discussed yet crucial topic of men's body image and self-perception. This conversation challenges the stereotypical ideals of masculinity and fitness, exploring the often-hidden struggles men face with body positivity. Whether you're grappling with your own body image or seeking to understand the broader societal impacts, this episode offers a blend of personal insights, professional expertise, and a call for a healthier, more inclusive understanding of male fitness and self-acceptance.

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Jonny Landels: 00:00:00

I think it's just that perception that we all

Jonny Landels: 00:00:01

have to be that shape, right?

Jonny Landels: 00:00:04

I think that's the most harmful thing.

Jonny Landels: 00:00:05

And it's the same for men as it is women.

Jonny Landels: 00:00:07

That there is like an ideal shape that we all should, aspire toward.

Jonny Landels: 00:00:12

And that, that no matter who you are and where you are now,

Jonny Landels: 00:00:17

that, that is possible for you.

Jonny Landels: 00:00:18

I think that's the most damaging message.

Jonny Landels: 00:00:20

It's it's not about being your healthiest and best self.

Jonny Landels: 00:00:23

It's no, you need to aspire to that body shape.

Jonny Landels: 00:00:26

And if you're not healthy, or you're not good enough, or you're not

Jonny Landels: 00:00:29

trying hard enough, or you just need to do it for longer, to get there.

Stephen Box: 00:00:40

Hey guys, welcome to the unshakable habits podcast.

Stephen Box: 00:00:43

I am your host Stephen box.

Stephen Box: 00:00:46

And you guys just heard from my guest today, Mr.

Stephen Box: 00:00:48

Johnny Landells, who is a health coach, just like myself.

Stephen Box: 00:00:54

And we had this great conversation about a topic that is not discussed

Stephen Box: 00:01:00

enough and that is men's body image.

Stephen Box: 00:01:04

And.

Stephen Box: 00:01:05

Body positivity for men.

Stephen Box: 00:01:07

This is a topic that usually when you hear about it, it's around women.

Stephen Box: 00:01:11

And I think that's great for the ladies.

Stephen Box: 00:01:13

I love that the ladies are getting that positivity.

Stephen Box: 00:01:17

But for men, this is something we don't talk about enough.

Stephen Box: 00:01:19

And we don't talk about the way that this has an impact on us as men.

Stephen Box: 00:01:23

Enough.

Stephen Box: 00:01:25

Now, I just want to really quickly before we jump into that.

Stephen Box: 00:01:29

Tell you guys a quick update here.

Stephen Box: 00:01:31

you may have noticed.

Stephen Box: 00:01:33

That if you could actually subscribe to the podcast or you follow the

Stephen Box: 00:01:36

podcast on your favorite podcast.

Stephen Box: 00:01:39

Platforms that we haven't published an episode in about a month.

Stephen Box: 00:01:43

And just, just a little break to recalibrate some things we're

Stephen Box: 00:01:46

going to be shifting in the next week or two to a different format.

Stephen Box: 00:01:51

For the podcast, I'm shorter episodes, a little bit more frequently.

Stephen Box: 00:01:55

So just been really getting the content together for that.

Stephen Box: 00:01:58

Before we start putting it out there.

Stephen Box: 00:02:00

But just a heads up to be on the lookout for that change.

Stephen Box: 00:02:03

coming up also.

Stephen Box: 00:02:05

one thing that I'm changing this kind of a big thing.

Stephen Box: 00:02:09

Is.

Stephen Box: 00:02:10

I'm not going to focus just on men now.

Stephen Box: 00:02:14

Today's episode is all about, man.

Stephen Box: 00:02:16

There's still gonna be a lot of content out there that is

Stephen Box: 00:02:18

focused very much someone, man.

Stephen Box: 00:02:20

And I'm still going to have a coaching program specifically for men.

Stephen Box: 00:02:23

So I'm not.

Stephen Box: 00:02:24

Abandoning man, but somebody pointed out to me and I think

Stephen Box: 00:02:27

it was a really good point of.

Stephen Box: 00:02:30

If we help women also developed grit habits.

Stephen Box: 00:02:35

That just creates stronger support systems for men.

Stephen Box: 00:02:37

And I know that in my life where I've been able to be successful is because I

Stephen Box: 00:02:42

have a wonderful wife who supports me.

Stephen Box: 00:02:45

In so many ways.

Stephen Box: 00:02:47

So I wanted to really make the podcast more accessible for everyone so that

Stephen Box: 00:02:52

everyone can get the benefit of it.

Stephen Box: 00:02:55

And there will be times where we'll have episodes like we're going to have today.

Stephen Box: 00:02:57

That will be more focused just on men.

Stephen Box: 00:03:00

So just throwing that out there for you.

Stephen Box: 00:03:02

But this topic of today, going back to that.

Stephen Box: 00:03:05

Is something that, like I said, I'm very passionate about because I noticed.

Stephen Box: 00:03:10

That when you start looking at this idea of body positivity for men.

Stephen Box: 00:03:16

It's almost gets negative reaction a lot of times.

Stephen Box: 00:03:19

I'm told by people when I talk about this.

Stephen Box: 00:03:22

Oh, you're just encouraging people to be overweight.

Stephen Box: 00:03:24

You're encouraging people to be unhealthy.

Stephen Box: 00:03:26

And at no point, do I ever say to someone you should just stay overweight?

Stephen Box: 00:03:31

At no point, do I tell anyone they should be unhealthy?

Stephen Box: 00:03:33

I encourage people to eat healthy foods, 80, 90% of the time.

Stephen Box: 00:03:37

I encourage people to work out as consistently as they possibly can.

Stephen Box: 00:03:41

I even give people a lot of tips on different ways to work

Stephen Box: 00:03:44

out, to get the best results.

Stephen Box: 00:03:46

What I don't tell people is that you need to have six pack abs to be healthy.

Stephen Box: 00:03:50

When I don't tell people is that if you don't have big, huge muscular

Stephen Box: 00:03:54

arms or bolder shoulders or whatever, then you're not healthy.

Stephen Box: 00:03:58

I don't tell people that because I don't believe that to be true.

Stephen Box: 00:04:02

When I was losing my weight when I lost my 80 pounds.

Stephen Box: 00:04:07

There was a point where I was still a good, probably 30, 40 pounds overweight.

Stephen Box: 00:04:11

I'm like halfway through my weight loss process at this point.

Stephen Box: 00:04:15

And let me tell you guys.

Stephen Box: 00:04:17

I was in better shape than some dudes who were like really skinny at the gym.

Stephen Box: 00:04:20

Like I will, I literally worked circles around them dudes.

Stephen Box: 00:04:23

So you don't have to be a certain way, right?

Stephen Box: 00:04:26

There is no such thing as a certain weight or anything.

Stephen Box: 00:04:28

That defines healthy.

Stephen Box: 00:04:31

And I think that's really the main thing I want to stress to people here is yes,

Stephen Box: 00:04:34

we would encourage you to be healthy, but that doesn't necessarily have to

Stephen Box: 00:04:38

be a certain size or a certain look.

Stephen Box: 00:04:40

Every everybody needs to figure out what works for them.

Stephen Box: 00:04:44

In that regard.

Stephen Box: 00:04:44

So I just want to throw that out there real quick and also just

Stephen Box: 00:04:47

share a quick story with you guys.

Stephen Box: 00:04:49

About why this is so important.

Stephen Box: 00:04:51

It's so personal to me.

Stephen Box: 00:04:53

Even though I record this interview.

Stephen Box: 00:04:55

Couple months back.

Stephen Box: 00:04:57

And we're just now getting a chance to publish it.

Stephen Box: 00:05:00

This past week, I was featured in an article for the Atlanta journal

Stephen Box: 00:05:04

constitution about new year's resolutions.

Stephen Box: 00:05:07

And the reporter said, Hey, do you mind if I send a photographer out to your

Stephen Box: 00:05:12

house to get pictures of you working out.

Stephen Box: 00:05:15

Now.

Stephen Box: 00:05:16

Be honest with you guys.

Stephen Box: 00:05:17

I have.

Stephen Box: 00:05:19

Not really gaining any weight.

Stephen Box: 00:05:22

But, my workouts haven't been quite as intense.

Stephen Box: 00:05:26

There's a lot of Christmas cookies and treats and football get togethers

Stephen Box: 00:05:31

and all that kind of stuff going on over the last few months.

Stephen Box: 00:05:34

And so I'm not photo ready.

Stephen Box: 00:05:36

Okay.

Stephen Box: 00:05:37

God, let's just put it like that.

Stephen Box: 00:05:39

And I was getting in my own head, I was having doubts and I was like,

Stephen Box: 00:05:43

oh, what are people going to think?

Stephen Box: 00:05:44

Or.

Stephen Box: 00:05:44

how are people going to see this?

Stephen Box: 00:05:45

What if they feel like, oh, you're like, he doesn't look like a trainer and,

Stephen Box: 00:05:48

that gives them second thoughts about working with me and all this other stuff.

Stephen Box: 00:05:51

They started running through my head and all these self

Stephen Box: 00:05:53

douses started going through.

Stephen Box: 00:05:56

And the Patriot actually came out.

Stephen Box: 00:05:57

Great.

Stephen Box: 00:05:58

And I was like, w what was I even tripping about?

Stephen Box: 00:06:00

Like, why am I even worried?

Stephen Box: 00:06:01

I just, I know my stuff, all the credentials and everything I have.

Stephen Box: 00:06:04

Why am I even worried that people aren't going to work with me?

Stephen Box: 00:06:07

If somebody doesn't want to work with me because I don't have six pack abs.

Stephen Box: 00:06:11

And they're just never going to work with me because I don't

Stephen Box: 00:06:14

care about heavy six pack abs.

Stephen Box: 00:06:16

That's not my thing.

Stephen Box: 00:06:17

I can help you get them, but it's not my thing.

Stephen Box: 00:06:21

It really made me feel very passionate about having this conversation,

Stephen Box: 00:06:25

talking about this today.

Stephen Box: 00:06:26

And that's where really where this conversation is going to go.

Stephen Box: 00:06:30

And Johnny has a great story where he was the one who was super fit.

Stephen Box: 00:06:36

But he didn't see himself that way.

Stephen Box: 00:06:37

He still saw himself as someone who needed to be better.

Stephen Box: 00:06:40

He's on the silver, someone who was not in good shape, even though he was super fit.

Stephen Box: 00:06:45

And that really have it for him, created some major issues for him.

Stephen Box: 00:06:49

So we're going to talk a lot about that kind of stuff today.

Stephen Box: 00:06:51

And if you guys want to give me your thoughts on this topic.

Stephen Box: 00:06:57

feel free to come chat with me on social media.

Stephen Box: 00:07:00

You can find me most places at unshakable habits, or on acts.

Stephen Box: 00:07:05

I don't really get on there too much, but you can connect with

Stephen Box: 00:07:08

me on there at I coach habits.

Stephen Box: 00:07:10

So I would love to hear your thoughts on this, but with that, please allow me

Stephen Box: 00:07:15

to introduce you today to my guest, Mr.

Stephen Box: 00:07:17

Johnny Landells.

Jonny Landels: 00:07:20

Thanks for having me, Stephen.

Jonny Landels: 00:07:21

It's, it's, great to be here and, great to, to have this conversation with you.

Stephen Box: 00:07:25

Yeah.

Stephen Box: 00:07:25

so you post a lot on social media about, this whole idea that us as

Stephen Box: 00:07:31

men have been taught that we've got to look a certain way that.

Stephen Box: 00:07:35

We need a certain body type.

Stephen Box: 00:07:37

Do we got to eat a certain way?

Stephen Box: 00:07:39

And all this kind of stuff.

Stephen Box: 00:07:40

And I think, one of the things that originally you posted that

Stephen Box: 00:07:43

stood out to me was this idea that language plays a trick on us.

Stephen Box: 00:07:50

Women are a lot of times told like they have to diet and there's

Stephen Box: 00:07:54

this whole diet culture thing.

Stephen Box: 00:07:57

Whereas men think maybe they're a little bit more immune to it for some reason

Stephen Box: 00:08:01

things like, Intermittent fasting or keto or whatever feel more manly and it's oh,

Stephen Box: 00:08:06

I'm not dieting You know, or we go through bulking and cutting seasons, right?

Stephen Box: 00:08:11

It's like what you were posting about you're like guys

Stephen Box: 00:08:13

That's still dieting, right?

Stephen Box: 00:08:15

Yeah, we just called a different word.

Stephen Box: 00:08:17

So so talked to me about like first of all Where did this whole thing

Stephen Box: 00:08:22

come from for you, like, where all of a sudden you became very passionate

Stephen Box: 00:08:25

about speaking out against this whole mindset and this whole movement?

Jonny Landels: 00:08:33

Yeah, I think, for me, it was something that I had always

Jonny Landels: 00:08:36

touched on a bit, but I became much more passionate about it through, becoming

Jonny Landels: 00:08:41

very aware of my own cyclical weight, okay, like I was someone who grew up

Jonny Landels: 00:08:48

as a bit of a bit of a chubby kid and a bit of a a bigger teenager in comparison

Jonny Landels: 00:08:52

to my peers and so being made fun of for my size and my weight was something

Jonny Landels: 00:08:58

that was just happened as I was growing up so I definitely internalized this

Jonny Landels: 00:09:03

identity of being someone who was as fat and that Was a bad thing and was

Jonny Landels: 00:09:08

only my fault and my mission to solve.

Jonny Landels: 00:09:12

And even though I've been completely ripped and shredded in the past,

Jonny Landels: 00:09:17

I look back at those days now.

Jonny Landels: 00:09:19

And in the moment of those times, I wasn't aware of the shape that I was in, right?

Jonny Landels: 00:09:26

I was always trying to lose weight.

Jonny Landels: 00:09:27

I was trying to focus on a certain weight on the scale, or I would

Jonny Landels: 00:09:31

be very critical about my body.

Jonny Landels: 00:09:33

And I would always look at myself in pictures and say, I'm not.

Jonny Landels: 00:09:37

Lean enough, right?

Jonny Landels: 00:09:38

Like I still have this to fix or this to fix or what have you and no matter

Jonny Landels: 00:09:44

What approach I was on whether that was tracking my calories whether that was

Jonny Landels: 00:09:48

tracking all my macros whether that was Intimacet fasting whether that was low

Jonny Landels: 00:09:53

carb it would be quite cyclical for me to lose weight get quite lean Still focus on

Jonny Landels: 00:10:02

being

Jonny Landels: 00:10:02

quite lean and never really hit my goal my quote unquote

Jonny Landels: 00:10:05

goal as it were and something in my life had happened where I would

Jonny Landels: 00:10:09

just be Knocked off track, right?

Jonny Landels: 00:10:11

Like I would either break the diet or I would just say I can't

Jonny Landels: 00:10:15

be bothered to track anymore.

Jonny Landels: 00:10:16

or I would start having these uncontrollable eating episodes and just

Jonny Landels: 00:10:20

oscillate between this discipline versus this chaotic eating, and it wasn't for.

Jonny Landels: 00:10:26

A number of years and a number of years into my coaching business,

Jonny Landels: 00:10:28

actually, that I became very aware that this was disordered eating, right?

Jonny Landels: 00:10:32

This was a cycle of very obsessive eating, very restricted eating.

Jonny Landels: 00:10:37

And it was all due to the way that I perceive my body and what I saw

Jonny Landels: 00:10:42

in the mirror, looking back at me.

Jonny Landels: 00:10:43

And so that was when I became much more passionate about looking

Jonny Landels: 00:10:47

into the topic of body image as it relates to body dysmorphia, right?

Jonny Landels: 00:10:51

That obsessive nature about your body.

Jonny Landels: 00:10:54

and how that also relates to nutrition and training and that led me to, to delve

Jonny Landels: 00:10:59

deeper into the messages where we're provided as men, growing up and everything

Jonny Landels: 00:11:03

that we see now of the bit muscular male as the, ideal we should be aiming for.

Stephen Box: 00:11:10

Yeah, what exactly do you see as some of those messages?

Stephen Box: 00:11:13

what are the couple of messages that you see out there that are really harmful

Jonny Landels: 00:11:18

to men?

Jonny Landels: 00:11:20

I think it's just that perception that we all have to be that shape, right?

Jonny Landels: 00:11:24

I think that's the most harmful thing.

Jonny Landels: 00:11:25

And it's the same for men as it is women.

Jonny Landels: 00:11:27

That there is like an ideal shape that we all should, aspire toward.

Jonny Landels: 00:11:33

And that, that no matter who you are and where you are now,

Jonny Landels: 00:11:37

that, that is possible for you.

Jonny Landels: 00:11:38

I think that's the most damaging message.

Jonny Landels: 00:11:40

It's it's not about being your healthiest and best self.

Jonny Landels: 00:11:43

It's no, you need to aspire to that body shape.

Jonny Landels: 00:11:46

And if you're not healthy, or you're not good enough, or you're not

Jonny Landels: 00:11:49

trying hard enough, or you just need to do it for longer, to get there.

Jonny Landels: 00:11:53

And it's no matter what it takes, and it completely, literates people's own,

Jonny Landels: 00:11:58

genetics, lifestyle, circumstances, and privileges, to find their best self,

Jonny Landels: 00:12:04

it's no, it needs to look like this.

Stephen Box: 00:12:07

Yeah, and I think, for me personally, one of the

Stephen Box: 00:12:09

things that, I've picked up one.

Stephen Box: 00:12:12

is when we find ourselves trying to go to an ideal body type, what ends up

Stephen Box: 00:12:20

happening is we take on very unhealthy behaviors in order to achieve that goal.

Stephen Box: 00:12:28

Because, like you said, the focus is strictly on how you look.

Stephen Box: 00:12:32

It's the end result.

Stephen Box: 00:12:35

Which for some people isn't even a reasonable result to attain, because like

Stephen Box: 00:12:38

you said, different, factors like your genetics, your age, things like that.

Stephen Box: 00:12:43

how much time you actually have available to work out or anything else, right?

Stephen Box: 00:12:48

But it's not necessarily a realistic expectation for everybody, but if

Stephen Box: 00:12:53

that's what you think you have to get to, instead of us focusing on the

Stephen Box: 00:12:57

behaviors that are actually healthy, we're focused just on that body type.

Stephen Box: 00:13:02

We do things that are actually unhealthy.

Stephen Box: 00:13:04

And although our bodies might look better, we're actually harming

Stephen Box: 00:13:09

our health in the long run.

Jonny Landels: 00:13:11

Yeah, exactly that, yeah, and it's, we could get into that debate

Jonny Landels: 00:13:14

of what looking better means, because again, looking better is attuned to

Jonny Landels: 00:13:19

that sociological ideal that if we look at the history of humankind, we can

Jonny Landels: 00:13:24

see that those things have shifted, as the years have shifted, and we've got

Jonny Landels: 00:13:30

this lean ideal for men and this sort of thin ideal for women, and even now.

Jonny Landels: 00:13:34

You can see that I think in the, in, in today's age, that's beginning to

Jonny Landels: 00:13:37

shift again for younger generations.

Jonny Landels: 00:13:40

Like it's not as not bleak, but it's not as like extreme as it was for say, like

Jonny Landels: 00:13:45

I grew up in the nineties, for example.

Jonny Landels: 00:13:48

And so I remember a lot of messaging around, women being called fat and

Jonny Landels: 00:13:51

that was a bad thing for people like Britney Spears and people in

Jonny Landels: 00:13:55

like Sex and the City and things like that, who were like, no way.

Jonny Landels: 00:13:58

at all.

Jonny Landels: 00:13:59

and I think that's that, and as you said, quite rightly, Stephen, if you

Jonny Landels: 00:14:02

over obsess on that number on the scale, you actually get drawn into

Jonny Landels: 00:14:06

behaviors that become very unhealthy.

Jonny Landels: 00:14:08

Because you're thinking of the body shape or the body weight by any means necessary.

Jonny Landels: 00:14:13

And unfortunately, that's the thing is that two people can do

Jonny Landels: 00:14:16

the same thing, eating and exercise a lot and get different results.

Jonny Landels: 00:14:21

Not to mention the people who are already of a lifestyle where they're very active.

Jonny Landels: 00:14:27

They're going to be able to eat a very different.

Jonny Landels: 00:14:29

Level of food and types of food and people who are less active and that just

Jonny Landels: 00:14:34

be a consequence of their work, right?

Jonny Landels: 00:14:36

And we can't just say to everyone, you know Give up your jobs and

Jonny Landels: 00:14:40

become personal trainers because we don't have a society if everybody

Jonny Landels: 00:14:44

was just active personal trainers

Stephen Box: 00:14:47

Yes, that is true.

Stephen Box: 00:14:48

I mean it would be a great, Society in terms of I saw Exercise and stuff

Stephen Box: 00:14:54

like that, but that'd be about the only benefit that came out of it.

Stephen Box: 00:14:57

There would be a lot of negatives too, unfortunately.

Jonny Landels: 00:15:01

Yeah.

Jonny Landels: 00:15:02

We'd all just be on the gym floor and nothing else would get done

Stephen Box: 00:15:05

like that.

Stephen Box: 00:15:05

That's the whole world would just be a big gem.

Stephen Box: 00:15:07

That would be it.

Stephen Box: 00:15:09

That's something we would have.

Stephen Box: 00:15:10

and yeah, it's interest because

Stephen Box: 00:15:16

Yeah, it's interesting me because when I.

Stephen Box: 00:15:19

I was actually in a store a couple of months ago, I picked up on something for

Stephen Box: 00:15:26

women, this movement of like positive body images, very much in vogue right now,

Stephen Box: 00:15:34

there was literally pictures of women of all different sizes all over the store.

Stephen Box: 00:15:41

So as you're walking by the women's department, pictures of

Stephen Box: 00:15:43

larger bodies, smaller bodies, in between bodies, everything, right?

Stephen Box: 00:15:48

But you go over to the men's section and every single picture of a guy,

Stephen Box: 00:15:53

with the outfit on or whatever is a skinny guy or a muscular guy.

Stephen Box: 00:15:59

There are no pictures of chubby guys in stores.

Stephen Box: 00:16:03

Why do you think it is that for women this messaging has been so powerful

Stephen Box: 00:16:09

and changing in the marketing, yet for men it's still been so largely ignored?

Jonny Landels: 00:16:15

That's a great question.

Jonny Landels: 00:16:17

and I'm not sure I could completely answer that

Jonny Landels: 00:16:20

for

Jonny Landels: 00:16:21

you.

Jonny Landels: 00:16:21

I think maybe it's, I think it's maybe the amount of men that do talk about it

Jonny Landels: 00:16:28

and kick back at it probably isn't enough.

Jonny Landels: 00:16:32

and it isn't as widespread a message, I think with men, because there's

Jonny Landels: 00:16:35

a generalized lack of, compassion anyway, both for for the self and for

Jonny Landels: 00:16:44

I think there's a lot more anti fat bias inside of men than there is

Jonny Landels: 00:16:48

within women, when I talked to lads about this kind of topic and about,

Jonny Landels: 00:16:54

people who are bigger are clearly just eating more, exercising less, they

Jonny Landels: 00:16:58

just need to try harder, do more work.

Jonny Landels: 00:17:01

There's a lot more personal responsibility narrative, I think, within blokes.

Jonny Landels: 00:17:06

And and a lot more as well of, Really all of the marketing, just

Jonny Landels: 00:17:11

like it was for women for a lot of times is that this idea of if you're

Jonny Landels: 00:17:14

bigger, then you should shift that.

Jonny Landels: 00:17:16

And Hey, move away from the.

Jonny Landels: 00:17:18

dad bod or whatever and get lean, get ripped and be this

Jonny Landels: 00:17:21

role model for your kits.

Jonny Landels: 00:17:22

Cause that's like the way it's positioned.

Jonny Landels: 00:17:25

So I think we're just slower to catch up to that idea of there generally being

Jonny Landels: 00:17:31

a variety in body shapes and sizes.

Jonny Landels: 00:17:33

And there are more men, coming out about that and more like bigger

Jonny Landels: 00:17:37

lads who are models and things.

Jonny Landels: 00:17:40

As you alluded to, you wouldn't really see that in a high street shop, you'd

Jonny Landels: 00:17:44

probably see more of that if you were shopping at a specific store, or an online

Jonny Landels: 00:17:48

store that was for like, bigger men.

Stephen Box: 00:17:51

Yeah, if it was like a big and tall specific kind of thing.

Jonny Landels: 00:17:55

Yeah.

Jonny Landels: 00:17:56

Yeah, like I think it's Jack a mole in the UK and I know that there's

Jonny Landels: 00:17:59

like different ones in the US

Stephen Box: 00:18:02

Yeah, I think you're on to something there though.

Stephen Box: 00:18:05

And I think a lot of that honestly goes into other issues that we have

Stephen Box: 00:18:11

as men in terms of the messaging the society's given us because We have been

Stephen Box: 00:18:16

for the most part taught that as men We're not supposed to ask for help.

Stephen Box: 00:18:20

Asking for help is a sign of weakness.

Stephen Box: 00:18:22

We're supposed to do things on our own.

Stephen Box: 00:18:24

You're supposed to power through.

Stephen Box: 00:18:26

You're supposed to have a willpower and all these, messages that kind of

Stephen Box: 00:18:30

paint this idea of masculinity as just being tough as nails and being able to

Stephen Box: 00:18:36

push through anything and that kind of messaging I think does tie back into this

Stephen Box: 00:18:44

idea that people get of, if you're not in the shape that I think you're supposed

Stephen Box: 00:18:48

to be in, it must be because you're lazy.

Stephen Box: 00:18:50

It must be because you're not disciplined.

Stephen Box: 00:18:52

You're, you just need to buckle down and, man up.

Jonny Landels: 00:18:56

Yeah, a hundred percent.

Jonny Landels: 00:18:57

and also that just like complete, disregard for what someone might

Jonny Landels: 00:19:00

say about their own habits, right?

Jonny Landels: 00:19:03

Oh no, like I, I eat quite well.

Jonny Landels: 00:19:04

I exercise a lot or I exercise regularly and people just disbelieving

Jonny Landels: 00:19:08

that because of the size they are or the shape they're in.

Jonny Landels: 00:19:11

And I think that's what's really damaging, particularly because as I've said at the,

Jonny Landels: 00:19:16

quite early on, because two people will respond differently to the same stimulus.

Jonny Landels: 00:19:21

If you've then got a bigger person who actually has a healthy relationship

Jonny Landels: 00:19:24

with food and exercise, they, they eat mostly nutrient dense foods.

Jonny Landels: 00:19:28

They occasionally eat out and, they occasionally have a pizza or a

Jonny Landels: 00:19:32

burger or a pastry or what have you.

Jonny Landels: 00:19:34

And they exercise, let's say three times a week and they still go on

Jonny Landels: 00:19:38

walks and do things with their family.

Jonny Landels: 00:19:40

Like you and I would say to each other, that sounds good.

Jonny Landels: 00:19:43

That sounds like the balance that we'd all aim for.

Jonny Landels: 00:19:45

But if they were bigger, it would be like, no, you need to work harder.

Jonny Landels: 00:19:48

And I think that's the damaging message of Or just do more for now, do more, do five

Jonny Landels: 00:19:54

sessions a week, do 15, 000 steps a day.

Jonny Landels: 00:19:57

let's, let, let's reign in those calories, man, let's try something.

Jonny Landels: 00:20:00

You can answer where you want to be, and then we can, think about maintenance.

Jonny Landels: 00:20:04

I think that's the, that, that can be a damaging, recipe, because then actually

Jonny Landels: 00:20:10

finding that maintenance becomes very difficult, because if maintenance were

Jonny Landels: 00:20:13

those habits they were doing before, what's to stop that kind of slow.

Jonny Landels: 00:20:17

regain back, and then you get stuck in that kind of like oscillation

Jonny Landels: 00:20:21

between normal life and a restrictive approach to try and get down to

Jonny Landels: 00:20:26

this magical weight target, right?

Jonny Landels: 00:20:29

Yeah,

Stephen Box: 00:20:30

I think something that you just touched on here that is

Stephen Box: 00:20:34

such a Important topic to bring up.

Stephen Box: 00:20:38

For a lot of people, this idea of being a certain size is a negative.

Stephen Box: 00:20:45

And the reality is, there are some negative aspects of being

Stephen Box: 00:20:51

bigger, being overweight.

Stephen Box: 00:20:52

And, primarily we're talking about increased risk of disease, like heart

Stephen Box: 00:20:57

disease, high cholesterol, high blood pressure, things that are preventable,

Stephen Box: 00:21:01

and things that, we obviously should not aspire to have, right?

Stephen Box: 00:21:05

These are things that ideally we don't want to have.

Stephen Box: 00:21:07

So how do we find that balance between, this idea of we

Stephen Box: 00:21:11

want to have healthy bodies.

Stephen Box: 00:21:13

but healthy isn't necessarily what we've been taught, right?

Stephen Box: 00:21:16

Healthy is not necessarily about being super skinny or being super shredded

Stephen Box: 00:21:21

because I know guys who are super shredded or super skinny and their cholesterol

Stephen Box: 00:21:27

numbers are off the boards or They've had a heart attack because their arteries

Stephen Box: 00:21:33

are clogged because yeah, they just have really great genetics So they look

Stephen Box: 00:21:36

great, but their diet is crap, right?

Stephen Box: 00:21:39

Yeah so like, how do we find that balance between, okay, we don't necessarily

Stephen Box: 00:21:45

need to say everyone needs to look this way, but let's also not just celebrate

Stephen Box: 00:21:50

saying, yeah, just let yourself go.

Stephen Box: 00:21:53

Like, how do we find that?

Jonny Landels: 00:21:55

Yeah.

Jonny Landels: 00:21:56

It's a good question, Stephen.

Jonny Landels: 00:21:57

I think, again, I think that.

Jonny Landels: 00:21:59

We've got to release that connotation of just because somebody's bigger than us,

Jonny Landels: 00:22:02

that must mean they've let themselves go.

Jonny Landels: 00:22:04

and I get your saying that because, and I know that you're aware

Jonny Landels: 00:22:07

of that, but that's, it's like reiterating that to people listening

Jonny Landels: 00:22:10

that doesn't always mean the case.

Jonny Landels: 00:22:11

And as you said, there'll be people who are slimmer and or shredded who have

Jonny Landels: 00:22:16

mostly junk food diets, don't exercise.

Jonny Landels: 00:22:18

and so actually their lifestyles aren't healthy either.

Jonny Landels: 00:22:22

and we do have this research.

Jonny Landels: 00:22:24

Good.

Jonny Landels: 00:22:25

I'm somebody who's very against the use of the BMI really, because

Jonny Landels: 00:22:29

it's the way that it was like formed and classified and used.

Jonny Landels: 00:22:32

But the research that we have with regards to mortality rates at certain BMIs, when

Jonny Landels: 00:22:38

they are correlated with lifestyle habits, showcases that even people who are in

Jonny Landels: 00:22:44

that kind of 30, 35 plus BMI category have a as low risk of mortality as people in

Jonny Landels: 00:22:50

lower BMI categories, as long as they are.

Jonny Landels: 00:22:53

Exercising frequently and the frequency was like 150 minutes

Jonny Landels: 00:22:56

a week, I think, eating five or more fruits and veggies a day.

Jonny Landels: 00:23:00

not smoking, drinking in moderation.

Jonny Landels: 00:23:02

So it's if you've got four or more lifestyle habits that are

Jonny Landels: 00:23:05

conducive with a healthy lifestyle, then your risk of mortality does

Jonny Landels: 00:23:08

get reduced even at a higher BMI.

Jonny Landels: 00:23:11

And this is what researchers are now terming like medically.

Jonny Landels: 00:23:15

medically healthy obesity or metaphorically healthy obesity, and

Jonny Landels: 00:23:19

like you said, if we're looking at health, it's looking at things like

Jonny Landels: 00:23:22

those blood markers, like blood sugars, cholesterol, VO2 max, your CV health

Jonny Landels: 00:23:27

are things that can be worked upon no matter your size or shape, right?

Jonny Landels: 00:23:32

People can lift weights, they can do cardiovascular training and

Jonny Landels: 00:23:36

they can have a nutritious diet.

Jonny Landels: 00:23:38

So it's focusing on those things rather than the objective metric of

Jonny Landels: 00:23:43

the body weight or the body shape.

Stephen Box: 00:23:45

one thing is, you and I both are health coaches.

Stephen Box: 00:23:47

And I think something we see in our industry that I find to be very

Stephen Box: 00:23:52

problematic is when we go out and we start having messaging with people,

Stephen Box: 00:24:00

what we find a lot of times is it can be very difficult to promote your services.

Stephen Box: 00:24:05

When you start talking to people about building healthy habits and I things

Stephen Box: 00:24:09

You know, just living a healthier lifestyle and everything because this

Stephen Box: 00:24:12

messaging around you have to have a certain body type is so strong.

Stephen Box: 00:24:17

and when a lot of coaches struggle to market their services, what do they do?

Stephen Box: 00:24:22

They go back to, Oh, I'm going to help you lose X amount of fat in X number of days.

Stephen Box: 00:24:28

And like you alluded to earlier, this idea of.

Stephen Box: 00:24:32

hey, let's get you where you need to be and then we can maintain, right?

Stephen Box: 00:24:37

So I just wanted to point that out because I think a lot of times, and this

Stephen Box: 00:24:43

is very unfortunate, that people in our industry are feeding into this problem.

Stephen Box: 00:24:50

And they're feeding into it out of, from a place of fear, right?

Stephen Box: 00:24:54

It's the, Hey, this isn't going great.

Stephen Box: 00:24:57

I need to get some sales.

Stephen Box: 00:24:59

And so I go easy thing, right?

Stephen Box: 00:25:01

I go with the thing I know people want to hear.

Stephen Box: 00:25:03

yeah, I'm just curious, like what has been your experience with that?

Stephen Box: 00:25:08

Yeah,

Jonny Landels: 00:25:08

it's a good question again.

Jonny Landels: 00:25:09

And I agree with you that.

Jonny Landels: 00:25:11

I see that now and equally like you, it's saddening to see that there

Jonny Landels: 00:25:17

are those pushes for those results, particularly quick results, both in

Jonny Landels: 00:25:21

terms of advertising, as well as just general social media posts that I

Jonny Landels: 00:25:24

see, a lot of my social media feed.

Jonny Landels: 00:25:28

Is away from that kind of thing now, like interestingly becoming a dad,

Jonny Landels: 00:25:33

very recently and being in my mid thirties, like I have noticed my

Jonny Landels: 00:25:37

adverts shift, like I'm getting a lot of male personal trainers in my feed.

Jonny Landels: 00:25:42

promising to get me lean.

Jonny Landels: 00:25:44

like I even saw one this morning that was a 14 day challenge

Jonny Landels: 00:25:47

that was like called lean in 14.

Jonny Landels: 00:25:50

and we're 14 day.

Jonny Landels: 00:25:51

small price to challenge, promising me, a certain amount of weight

Jonny Landels: 00:25:55

loss in the kind of two week period and yeah, it's everywhere.

Jonny Landels: 00:25:58

and I think it pulls towards people's instant gratification as well.

Jonny Landels: 00:26:01

and since people, when they are vulnerable, when they might be

Jonny Landels: 00:26:04

feeling like I've just had a kid.

Jonny Landels: 00:26:06

So last, last, the last three months of my life has been quite chaotic in terms

Jonny Landels: 00:26:11

of my sort of exercise and food because of where I'm living at the minute, but

Jonny Landels: 00:26:15

particularly the last few weeks with a week in the hospital and two weeks

Jonny Landels: 00:26:20

of a newborn and things like, it's a vulnerable time to get that marketing.

Jonny Landels: 00:26:25

but in terms of seeking for business and this idea of, everybody wants fat loss,

Jonny Landels: 00:26:29

so surely that must be what I need to do.

Jonny Landels: 00:26:31

I, as I was pivoting, that did concern me a little bit, because I'd built up a

Jonny Landels: 00:26:37

reputation as somebody who helped people.

Jonny Landels: 00:26:40

Lose fat and showcase before and afters and do all those things but then when I

Jonny Landels: 00:26:44

realized that you know A lot of the pain that I'd been suffering with regards

Jonny Landels: 00:26:48

to my body dysmorphia With regards to my disordered eating with regards to

Jonny Landels: 00:26:52

the habits that there were loads of other people that struggle with those

Jonny Landels: 00:26:55

things, too You know, and talking more and more about that in my posts and

Jonny Landels: 00:26:59

being quite authentic about it, really, led a lot of people to say, Hey, I

Jonny Landels: 00:27:02

want to work on my fitness without those things being a struggle for me.

Jonny Landels: 00:27:06

I'm sick of having to take out every calorie under the sun.

Jonny Landels: 00:27:09

Like I'm sick of weighing myself every day and having that dictate my mood

Jonny Landels: 00:27:14

as well as my eating for that day.

Jonny Landels: 00:27:15

I want to.

Jonny Landels: 00:27:16

I want to be a role model for my kids and be strong and be fit.

Jonny Landels: 00:27:20

I want to be, I want to be those things rather than be focusing on like

Jonny Landels: 00:27:24

the lean ideal that's made me this like obsessive, angry, moody person.

Jonny Landels: 00:27:29

And so it is, if you're listening to this and you're resonating with it as a fitness

Jonny Landels: 00:27:33

coach, it's just knowing that people.

Jonny Landels: 00:27:36

People do want those results, like I do, I have a business, right?

Jonny Landels: 00:27:40

And I have plenty of clients who work with me on their fitness and

Jonny Landels: 00:27:44

their eating in a non diet way.

Stephen Box: 00:27:48

Yeah, and I will just to play devil's advocate here for a second,

Stephen Box: 00:27:53

say that there are some people out there that's generally what they want, right?

Stephen Box: 00:27:57

yeah.

Stephen Box: 00:27:58

They want to lose a bunch of fat, they want to look a certain way, and it's

Stephen Box: 00:28:02

an internal thing for them, right?

Stephen Box: 00:28:03

They're not just doing it because they think that's how they're supposed to

Stephen Box: 00:28:05

look, it's how they actually want to look.

Stephen Box: 00:28:08

And, my thing is, look, I'm not saying that you can't market to those people, I'm

Stephen Box: 00:28:13

not saying that you can't, appeal to them.

Stephen Box: 00:28:16

I think where my problem comes in with a lot of the marketing that I see is

Stephen Box: 00:28:20

one thing to appeal to people that have already decided that's what they want.

Stephen Box: 00:28:25

And you are emphasizing to them the joy that they're going to get out of it versus

Stephen Box: 00:28:32

what I see a lot of times is we find the pain points of people who are overweight

Stephen Box: 00:28:38

and we just hammer, hammer, right?

Stephen Box: 00:28:40

It's here, feel even worse about yourself than you already do.

Jonny Landels: 00:28:43

yeah, like twisting the knife, already of like their

Jonny Landels: 00:28:46

low feelings of worth, self esteem.

Jonny Landels: 00:28:49

oftentimes people who are bigger as well will have chaotic eating habits,

Jonny Landels: 00:28:53

as a result as well of attempted dieting a lot of the time, right?

Jonny Landels: 00:28:58

it's not like people who are bigger will have never tried it, and so I

Jonny Landels: 00:29:01

agree with you there, Stephen, that There's nothing wrong with marketing.

Jonny Landels: 00:29:04

Hey, let's get you completely shredded.

Jonny Landels: 00:29:07

And if you're, I think that comes if you're like a bodybuilding coach, right?

Jonny Landels: 00:29:11

If you're a bodybuilding coach or a physique coach, and you're

Jonny Landels: 00:29:13

like, I get people shredded.

Jonny Landels: 00:29:14

and that's what we do, right?

Jonny Landels: 00:29:15

let's get you on stage or let's do a dance mission and hey, look, I really appreciate

Jonny Landels: 00:29:20

it where I've got a friend who's a bodybuilding coach who walks around.

Jonny Landels: 00:29:24

he walks around like much, much lean than I walk around, but obviously he's

Jonny Landels: 00:29:27

been doing this now for years and years.

Jonny Landels: 00:29:29

He does, have a very active job and trains twice a day and stuff.

Jonny Landels: 00:29:33

But he gets a lot leaner for shows and even says, these are unsustainable things.

Jonny Landels: 00:29:39

We're doing it to achieve something and then after that, it's we're going to

Jonny Landels: 00:29:43

focus on what's like sustainable for you.

Jonny Landels: 00:29:45

And I think when it's done that way, it's not pulling on pain points and

Jonny Landels: 00:29:48

it's much more ethical marketing.

Stephen Box: 00:29:51

And I'm pointing some of this stuff out, for anybody

Stephen Box: 00:29:54

who's listening to right now.

Stephen Box: 00:29:56

It's not that I'm trying to beat up on other coaches or anything like that.

Stephen Box: 00:29:59

no.

Stephen Box: 00:29:59

It's, I just want for people to be able to see this is the messaging that you're

Stephen Box: 00:30:03

getting and why you're getting it.

Stephen Box: 00:30:05

And it's just because that message is out there, just because someone

Stephen Box: 00:30:09

is hammering you with these ideas doesn't mean that what they're telling

Stephen Box: 00:30:15

you is right, that it doesn't mean that's the only way to do things.

Stephen Box: 00:30:18

like you mentioned earlier, for you, like you're starting to see all these

Stephen Box: 00:30:22

ads now, and maybe the ads were there before and you just ignored them, you

Stephen Box: 00:30:28

now having this situation where sleep is obviously being impacted, I'm sure that's

Stephen Box: 00:30:32

affecting the energy levels, you're not feeling as good about yourself, maybe

Stephen Box: 00:30:37

when you do get into the gym to workout, maybe your workouts aren't as good

Stephen Box: 00:30:41

right now, and those are all completely understandable things, but it can be easy

Stephen Box: 00:30:46

to fall back into that trap of I'm not doing enough, I need to be doing more,

Stephen Box: 00:30:50

I'm not doing what I was doing before, holding yourself to a previous standard.

Stephen Box: 00:30:54

And then when somebody comes along and starts talking about, Hey, do you feel

Stephen Box: 00:30:58

like crap, do you hate what in the mirror?

Stephen Box: 00:31:00

You're like, you know that right now I do.

Stephen Box: 00:31:01

And it's like you said, it's a very vulnerable place to be.

Jonny Landels: 00:31:05

Yeah.

Jonny Landels: 00:31:06

And it's yeah, I definitely need, high level accountability and, like someone to

Jonny Landels: 00:31:10

whip me into shape and tell me to, follow these calories or exercise every day.

Jonny Landels: 00:31:15

Like I need that, kick up the ass is often what you think.

Jonny Landels: 00:31:18

Yeah.

Jonny Landels: 00:31:18

and you're right.

Jonny Landels: 00:31:19

we're not trying to.

Jonny Landels: 00:31:21

Played down on any coaches at all, like I've definitely gone through my

Jonny Landels: 00:31:24

own journey where I was a fat loss coach for a long time and the pivot

Jonny Landels: 00:31:28

towards Being more weight neutral as I am now was a long pivot, like it

Jonny Landels: 00:31:33

involved a lot of research on my end.

Jonny Landels: 00:31:35

It involved a lot of reading on my end.

Jonny Landels: 00:31:36

It involved a lot of, making peace with where correlations and associations

Jonny Landels: 00:31:40

lie and what side of that coin I wanted to sit on, and at the end of

Jonny Landels: 00:31:44

the day, I'm focused on helping a client with their version of health.

Jonny Landels: 00:31:48

And help a client with their version of their best, their healthiest, fittest

Jonny Landels: 00:31:52

confidence, however that looks, while also helping them be realistic with, with the

Jonny Landels: 00:31:57

targets they set and also genuinely find out what it is that they want, rather

Jonny Landels: 00:32:02

than what they think they want, because as you said, because of the marketing

Jonny Landels: 00:32:06

that they see or the messages they hear.

Jonny Landels: 00:32:09

Yeah,

Stephen Box: 00:32:09

I had a conversation with a client just probably

Stephen Box: 00:32:13

two, three months back.

Stephen Box: 00:32:14

And we're talking and I say, what is it that you really want?

Stephen Box: 00:32:20

And he's Oh, I need to get below 200 pounds and whatever.

Stephen Box: 00:32:24

And he wasn't trying to get six pack abs or anything like that.

Stephen Box: 00:32:26

He just was like, I just need to get below 200 pounds.

Stephen Box: 00:32:29

And so I started talking to him about like why.

Stephen Box: 00:32:32

And, he's sharing with me about, how he's going to have more energy and

Stephen Box: 00:32:36

he's going to be able to play with his kids and he's going to be able to have

Stephen Box: 00:32:39

more confidence and that he thinks his wife will find him more attractive

Stephen Box: 00:32:43

and all these different things.

Stephen Box: 00:32:46

And I asked him, do you think that you need to wait until you're under

Stephen Box: 00:32:52

200 pounds to experience those things?

Stephen Box: 00:32:55

And he really wasn't ready for that question.

Stephen Box: 00:33:01

at first he's I think that, I will have those things when I get there.

Stephen Box: 00:33:03

I'm like, can you start to have those things before you get there?

Stephen Box: 00:33:09

And he was like, yeah, I could.

Stephen Box: 00:33:12

And I think that's the message I really want people to start to get here, right?

Stephen Box: 00:33:15

It's not about looking a certain way.

Stephen Box: 00:33:19

It's about your behaviors.

Stephen Box: 00:33:20

And here's the reality for most of us.

Stephen Box: 00:33:22

Yeah.

Stephen Box: 00:33:23

If we just start doing the right behaviors, weight loss is just

Stephen Box: 00:33:29

a side effect of it, right?

Stephen Box: 00:33:30

It's just, it just, it's something that happens.

Stephen Box: 00:33:32

That doesn't mean you're going to get shredded.

Stephen Box: 00:33:34

It doesn't mean that you're going to be in, good enough shape to go, to the

Stephen Box: 00:33:39

casting for the next big Marvel movie or anything like that, but you can be

Stephen Box: 00:33:44

healthy just by changing your behaviors, regardless of what the scale is.

Stephen Box: 00:33:49

And I really think that's the overarching idea of

Jonny Landels: 00:33:51

what we've talked about today.

Jonny Landels: 00:33:53

Yeah, a hundred percent.

Jonny Landels: 00:33:54

I loved that conversation you had with your client of can you

Jonny Landels: 00:33:57

start having those things now?

Jonny Landels: 00:33:58

can you start acting like that now?

Jonny Landels: 00:34:00

what are you?

Jonny Landels: 00:34:01

you have that conversation with people of what are you holding?

Jonny Landels: 00:34:03

What are you holding back on?

Jonny Landels: 00:34:04

what are you waiting for?

Jonny Landels: 00:34:05

what are you waiting for this like new body to give you permission

Jonny Landels: 00:34:09

to do that you're not doing now?

Jonny Landels: 00:34:11

And what have you started doing those things now that you and I went through

Jonny Landels: 00:34:14

the same coaching certification, right?

Jonny Landels: 00:34:17

In terms of what are people's highest priorities?

Jonny Landels: 00:34:19

What are people's values?

Jonny Landels: 00:34:20

How can they start living toward those things and pairing health and

Jonny Landels: 00:34:25

fitness with those highest priorities?

Jonny Landels: 00:34:28

It's great when you have those conversations with clients, because

Jonny Landels: 00:34:30

then you start talking to them about exercise, and fitness, and health, and

Jonny Landels: 00:34:34

being like, Yeah, I want to play with my kids, I want to go hiking with my kids,

Jonny Landels: 00:34:37

I want to go swimming with my kids, bike riding, and it's there's your fitness.

Jonny Landels: 00:34:42

like, why are you in the gym crushing three sets of ten bicep curls?

Jonny Landels: 00:34:46

Just because you think that the curls get the girls, like your wife loves

Jonny Landels: 00:34:49

you already, if you embody a confident, attractive man, like that's going

Jonny Landels: 00:34:52

to make more of a change than, a one inch bigger bicep is going to do.

Jonny Landels: 00:34:56

And particularly if you pair that with being this like active

Jonny Landels: 00:34:59

father that you want to be.

Jonny Landels: 00:35:01

So I really love that point.

Jonny Landels: 00:35:03

Yeah.

Stephen Box: 00:35:03

It's funny you bring up the curls.

Stephen Box: 00:35:04

Cause, I can't remember who it was that posted this, but I remember

Stephen Box: 00:35:07

somebody made this post about.

Stephen Box: 00:35:11

Men think that women are attracted to bigger biceps, but women are

Stephen Box: 00:35:16

actually attracted to confidence.

Stephen Box: 00:35:18

And most men are more confident when they have bigger biceps.

Stephen Box: 00:35:22

So I guess indirectly they're right.

Stephen Box: 00:35:23

That women love big biceps.

Jonny Landels: 00:35:30

Yeah, I think that's a thing of the bravado that again, I

Jonny Landels: 00:35:34

think this is another reason why men can struggle with a body image messaging.

Jonny Landels: 00:35:38

Is that like a lot of the times our confidence can be tied into

Jonny Landels: 00:35:42

our body image and teasing those things apart can be quite difficult

Jonny Landels: 00:35:45

to do and what I'd say about.

Jonny Landels: 00:35:47

That as well as the oftentimes acceptance of where your body is now,

Jonny Landels: 00:35:52

men think if I accept my body now, why would I ever be driven to change it?

Jonny Landels: 00:35:56

And you mentioned before, we don't want to just let ourselves

Jonny Landels: 00:35:59

go for want of a better word.

Jonny Landels: 00:36:02

but the point is that actually if you accept your body as it is, and you

Jonny Landels: 00:36:07

want to do these healthy behaviors for the internal motivation of

Jonny Landels: 00:36:10

doing those behaviors, any change of that as a by product is just.

Jonny Landels: 00:36:14

potentially a bonus that in a way you want to see it and we actually take

Jonny Landels: 00:36:20

care of the things that we like Better than we do the things we dislike.

Jonny Landels: 00:36:25

So people always say if I like my body, I'll just not do anything And

Jonny Landels: 00:36:29

I say actually you'll take care of it better because it's about developing

Jonny Landels: 00:36:32

these self care behaviors from a place of like compassion and body

Jonny Landels: 00:36:36

appreciation rather than body hatred.

Stephen Box: 00:36:41

Yeah, because I think one thing people do miss out

Stephen Box: 00:36:43

on, is this idea that what we're doing is we're hating our bodies.

Stephen Box: 00:36:48

Yeah.

Stephen Box: 00:36:49

When you look in the mirror and you say, I need to lose my gut or

Stephen Box: 00:36:54

I need bigger arms or whatever.

Stephen Box: 00:36:57

What you're really saying is, I don't like what I have now.

Stephen Box: 00:37:02

And it's okay to want change.

Stephen Box: 00:37:05

It's okay to want something to be different than what it is.

Stephen Box: 00:37:08

But.

Stephen Box: 00:37:10

Where does that come from?

Stephen Box: 00:37:12

is that coming from a place of love, or is it coming from a place of hate?

Stephen Box: 00:37:16

And I think for most of us, it comes from a place of hate.

Stephen Box: 00:37:22

Yeah,

Jonny Landels: 00:37:23

I'd agree with you.

Jonny Landels: 00:37:25

And you've then got to say, how's that working for you?

Jonny Landels: 00:37:29

like, how's that serving you?

Jonny Landels: 00:37:31

are you stuck in that chaotic yo diet cycle, really?

Jonny Landels: 00:37:35

It's called a spade of spade, where you're either on it for a short period

Jonny Landels: 00:37:39

of time and you lose a bunch of weight.

Jonny Landels: 00:37:41

And then you're off of it and you're eating pizza and doughnuts and drinking

Jonny Landels: 00:37:45

loads of beer and gaining weight.

Jonny Landels: 00:37:48

Yeah.

Jonny Landels: 00:37:48

And there's no in between.

Jonny Landels: 00:37:49

Like you, you hate your body when you're leaner, you hate

Jonny Landels: 00:37:51

your body when you're fatter.

Jonny Landels: 00:37:53

if you're stuck in that cycle, you're clearly coming at this from a place of

Jonny Landels: 00:37:56

body hatred rather than appreciation.

Jonny Landels: 00:37:58

And if that's not working for you, then Hey, what, a client said to me, a

Jonny Landels: 00:38:02

client said this to me the other day.

Jonny Landels: 00:38:03

They were like, what have I got to lose?

Jonny Landels: 00:38:06

Like the last, probably many years of doing this hasn't worked for me.

Jonny Landels: 00:38:09

they were like, let's try it your way.

Jonny Landels: 00:38:11

I've literally got nothing to lose.

Jonny Landels: 00:38:13

And I was like, it's true, got nothing to lose and everything to gain.

Stephen Box: 00:38:16

you're like, you actually have a whole lot to lose.

Stephen Box: 00:38:18

let's see, we can start with negative self image.

Jonny Landels: 00:38:21

Yeah, negative self talk, negative self image,

Jonny Landels: 00:38:24

let's get those things in the bin.

Stephen Box: 00:38:25

Yeah, we can get rid of some of that, right?

Stephen Box: 00:38:27

So we can lose that.

Stephen Box: 00:38:29

yeah,

Jonny Landels: 00:38:29

yeah.

Jonny Landels: 00:38:30

Yeah, Reframe, reframe what we're getting rid of here.

Stephen Box: 00:38:33

it's actually very interesting, Years ago, when I trained

Stephen Box: 00:38:37

people in person, at that time, I wasn't just focused just on men.

Stephen Box: 00:38:41

I was actually training, everybody and I remember I had this one client, female,

Stephen Box: 00:38:49

she was, according to, BMI and stuff like that, extremely overweight and,

Stephen Box: 00:38:55

she came in and I was already starting to develop this philosophy anyway.

Stephen Box: 00:39:00

It's about your behaviors.

Stephen Box: 00:39:01

It's about changing that stuff rather than the results from the scale.

Stephen Box: 00:39:06

And so one of the things we actually did, and I'm only bringing this up because I

Stephen Box: 00:39:09

think this is something that can really help a lot of guys out there that might be

Stephen Box: 00:39:12

struggling with this concept, is, I said, when you come into the gym, we don't focus

Stephen Box: 00:39:17

on weight loss, we focus on weight gain.

Stephen Box: 00:39:20

Because what we're worried about is you'd be able to put more weight on the

Stephen Box: 00:39:23

bar versus what the scale says, right?

Stephen Box: 00:39:26

So we're trying to gain weight in here.

Stephen Box: 00:39:28

We're getting our weight up in here, not down.

Stephen Box: 00:39:31

yeah,

Jonny Landels: 00:39:31

yeah.

Jonny Landels: 00:39:32

I love that.

Jonny Landels: 00:39:33

And he's positioning it then much more to the ability in the gym than anything

Stephen Box: 00:39:37

else.

Stephen Box: 00:39:38

And it's just it goes back to this idea of what are the

Stephen Box: 00:39:42

behaviors that you want to do?

Stephen Box: 00:39:43

I think that's something that a lot of guys might be thinking.

Stephen Box: 00:39:46

Okay, if I'm not focused on fat loss, Which is something I've always focused on,

Stephen Box: 00:39:52

or if I'm not focused on just trying to get bigger muscles because I think that's

Stephen Box: 00:39:56

what I need, then what am I focused on?

Stephen Box: 00:39:59

It's you're focused on the behaviors, they get you those things, but you're

Stephen Box: 00:40:05

focused on them from the standpoint of, those are the things you want to do.

Stephen Box: 00:40:10

you're not doing them because you want to gain muscle, you're not doing

Stephen Box: 00:40:12

them because you want to burn fat, you're doing them because those are

Stephen Box: 00:40:15

the activities that you want to do.

Stephen Box: 00:40:17

Yeah.

Stephen Box: 00:40:18

They're gonna make you healthy.

Jonny Landels: 00:40:19

Yeah, and then, and you've got to then come from that, from an

Jonny Landels: 00:40:22

internally motivated place where what's the motivation to be healthy, to be fit?

Jonny Landels: 00:40:27

What do those things mean to you?

Jonny Landels: 00:40:29

And what does that look like realistically?

Jonny Landels: 00:40:32

And then you have the destination postcard, right?

Jonny Landels: 00:40:35

That you can then draw a roadmap to.

Jonny Landels: 00:40:38

In terms of these are the behaviors that I want to be doing.

Jonny Landels: 00:40:41

You can then start from a much more sustainable place.

Jonny Landels: 00:40:44

I know those can build over time, right?

Jonny Landels: 00:40:46

You don't need to black out, like habits or whatever, and do all of these like

Jonny Landels: 00:40:51

really detailed things to try and build these habits and try and hack your life.

Jonny Landels: 00:40:55

you don't need to biohack a thing.

Jonny Landels: 00:40:58

It's just I want to do these things.

Jonny Landels: 00:41:01

How can I start, how can I start small and start building them into my life and then

Jonny Landels: 00:41:04

know that they'll grow as grow naturally as they become more and more normal to me.

Stephen Box: 00:41:10

Yeah, and to me, I think a lot of it, we have to put

Stephen Box: 00:41:14

on ourself as health coaches, right?

Stephen Box: 00:41:15

We have to educate people on the benefits of things outside

Stephen Box: 00:41:20

of lose weight, get bigger.

Stephen Box: 00:41:23

We have to do a better job of that as an industry.

Stephen Box: 00:41:25

So for example, When we start talking about strength training, if I were to

Stephen Box: 00:41:31

go and just randomly pick out 100 guys and ask them, what are the reasons

Stephen Box: 00:41:35

why you should do strength training?

Stephen Box: 00:41:37

I would venture to guess that a very small percentage of them would answer anything

Stephen Box: 00:41:42

other than lose weight or put on muscle.

Stephen Box: 00:41:45

Yet, you and I both know there are a lot of different benefits to adding a

Stephen Box: 00:41:51

street training to your routine outside of gaining muscle or burning fat.

Stephen Box: 00:41:55

Yep.

Jonny Landels: 00:41:55

Yeah, tons of them, yeah.

Jonny Landels: 00:41:58

I'm just ashamed that's not more well known.

Jonny Landels: 00:42:01

particularly for blokes who are in their 30s and 40s, right?

Jonny Landels: 00:42:06

the delay in osteoporosis and sarcopenia, the improvement in bone density.

Jonny Landels: 00:42:12

The improvement in anabolic, maintenance anyway, right?

Jonny Landels: 00:42:16

It's there's just so many benefits to that in terms of a

Jonny Landels: 00:42:19

healthy functional lifestyle.

Jonny Landels: 00:42:20

and one that you'll be reaping the rewards from in years to come, particularly

Jonny Landels: 00:42:25

when you get older and your mates who haven't lifted start to really

Jonny Landels: 00:42:29

struggle just with day to day function.

Stephen Box: 00:42:32

Yeah, it's so weird for me because I'm actually 45 now and

Stephen Box: 00:42:37

I have friends who are in their 30s.

Stephen Box: 00:42:42

That they're, they'll Oh, like when you get out of bed in the morning and

Stephen Box: 00:42:46

such and such hurts, I'm like, no.

Stephen Box: 00:42:49

No, I'm sorry, I don't know what you mean, I can't relate.

Stephen Box: 00:42:54

And, that's because I've been consistently, exercising for

Stephen Box: 00:42:58

the last almost 15 years now.

Stephen Box: 00:43:01

I didn't even actually start until I was like 32, 33.

Stephen Box: 00:43:06

I didn't even start my process until then, so there's also that, guys, if

Stephen Box: 00:43:10

you're out there going, No, it's too late.

Stephen Box: 00:43:11

No, it's not.

Stephen Box: 00:43:12

Not too late.

Stephen Box: 00:43:13

Yeah.

Stephen Box: 00:43:13

I don't know.

Stephen Box: 00:43:14

So Johnny, one thing I wanted to talk to you about was you posted

Stephen Box: 00:43:19

about how you were going through this transformation, right?

Stephen Box: 00:43:23

You were transitioning from this guy that was overly obsessive

Stephen Box: 00:43:27

about your body to someone that kind of pulled back on the reins a

Stephen Box: 00:43:31

little bit and said, you know what?

Stephen Box: 00:43:32

I need to enjoy life a little bit more.

Stephen Box: 00:43:35

And with that maybe came a couple extra pounds, right?

Stephen Box: 00:43:37

And you said that you started having people go, Hey man,

Stephen Box: 00:43:40

what's going on with you?

Stephen Box: 00:43:41

Did you stop working out?

Stephen Box: 00:43:43

What's going on?

Stephen Box: 00:43:45

What was that process like for you internally?

Stephen Box: 00:43:47

and the reason I'm asking you this, just so you maybe know how to context

Stephen Box: 00:43:51

the answer here is, I think there's a lot of people out there that

Stephen Box: 00:43:55

maybe have that fear of letting go.

Stephen Box: 00:43:59

Yeah.

Stephen Box: 00:43:59

With, of some of their obsessive behavior.

Stephen Box: 00:44:02

So I just want you to be able to speak to that person who

Stephen Box: 00:44:04

has those concerns right now.

Stephen Box: 00:44:06

Yeah,

Jonny Landels: 00:44:07

it's a great question.

Jonny Landels: 00:44:10

because it's somebody who had always been really lean.

Jonny Landels: 00:44:14

to fight back against any negative comments about his body, right?

Jonny Landels: 00:44:19

Like it was all fueled from that upbringing of being teased about my weight

Jonny Landels: 00:44:24

and having it affect my convolutes and having it be this whole thing of my fault.

Jonny Landels: 00:44:31

As I started to gain weight, I remember a big part of it for me was to not

Jonny Landels: 00:44:37

actually know like how much I weighed if you ask me now like I couldn't tell

Jonny Landels: 00:44:40

you like last time I got weighed was, for a health screening, and I remember

Jonny Landels: 00:44:46

doing that health screening and that health screening was earlier this year.

Jonny Landels: 00:44:51

And I think I remember seeing the weight as well.

Jonny Landels: 00:44:54

And I was like, Will be where I thought it was, like when you've

Jonny Landels: 00:44:57

worked with this many people and known your own body for a long time,

Jonny Landels: 00:45:00

you'll guess, and, and it is hard.

Jonny Landels: 00:45:01

it's difficult and it's scary.

Jonny Landels: 00:45:03

there's a definitive fear of weight gain.

Jonny Landels: 00:45:05

And the only thing that you can do to get over that is to go through it, right?

Jonny Landels: 00:45:11

Like it's like having a fear of spiders or a fear of wasps.

Jonny Landels: 00:45:13

Like you can be logical about it all you want, right?

Jonny Landels: 00:45:17

You can read all of these things about how to get over the fear of

Jonny Landels: 00:45:20

spiders or get over the fear of wasps.

Jonny Landels: 00:45:22

And you can do all of this thought reframing and things as much as you

Jonny Landels: 00:45:25

want, but you have to either be in a room with a spider for a long period

Jonny Landels: 00:45:29

of time, and then gravity probably work up to touching the spider, maybe.

Jonny Landels: 00:45:35

You probably could just go to I need to be in a room with a spider and

Jonny Landels: 00:45:37

not freak out for long enough, right?

Jonny Landels: 00:45:39

and with weight gain, you need to go through that process of.

Jonny Landels: 00:45:43

There are certain behaviors that you are afraid of because you

Jonny Landels: 00:45:46

connect them with weight gain.

Jonny Landels: 00:45:47

You connect letting go of your food rules with weight gain.

Jonny Landels: 00:45:50

You let you probably associate certain foods with being fattening

Jonny Landels: 00:45:53

foods in and of themselves.

Jonny Landels: 00:45:55

You associate releasing your workout schedule to gaining weight.

Jonny Landels: 00:45:59

And it's until you start engaging those behaviors and then accepting the.

Jonny Landels: 00:46:04

Consequence of not dying, right?

Jonny Landels: 00:46:07

It's you're going to be able to overcome that.

Jonny Landels: 00:46:09

And when you work on your body image and you work on your acceptance of

Jonny Landels: 00:46:15

yourself, I had to know what my limit was.

Jonny Landels: 00:46:18

I think in terms of my behaviors, know that if people ask me certain

Jonny Landels: 00:46:23

questions about my shape and size and my weight and everything, I was

Jonny Landels: 00:46:29

comfortable with giving them an answer.

Jonny Landels: 00:46:30

because it's one of those where as a health coach, I want to

Jonny Landels: 00:46:33

still be walking the walk, right?

Jonny Landels: 00:46:34

As we talked earlier, I still want to be doing those healthy behaviors, because

Jonny Landels: 00:46:37

if I'm not, then I'm just a hypocrite.

Jonny Landels: 00:46:40

Yeah.

Jonny Landels: 00:46:40

But because I still do all of those things, and okay, it's very

Jonny Landels: 00:46:43

different to how it used to be, Yeah.

Jonny Landels: 00:46:46

I can assuage myself, because where I used to be, was like, pro athlete

Jonny Landels: 00:46:51

levels, training and nutrition.

Jonny Landels: 00:46:54

And right now I'm at a place where my training in nutrition is better than I'd

Jonny Landels: 00:47:00

say 90, 95 percent of the population.

Jonny Landels: 00:47:04

I'm a bigger guy and it's I had to get to the point where I like,

Jonny Landels: 00:47:08

yeah, okay, I've got more body fat than I used to in a period of my

Jonny Landels: 00:47:11

life right now where things are much more chaotic than they used to be.

Jonny Landels: 00:47:16

I'm still a very active person and I'm still a very healthy person.

Jonny Landels: 00:47:20

It's why I get health screens.

Jonny Landels: 00:47:22

And for me then it was working on all of those things.

Jonny Landels: 00:47:25

So to people who are worried about it.

Jonny Landels: 00:47:26

it's getting through that fear by engaging in the behaviours that you think are

Jonny Landels: 00:47:31

the scariest and knowing what you're, I think, If you think you're into a

Jonny Landels: 00:47:38

place where you're obsessive and that's having a negative effect on your mental

Jonny Landels: 00:47:42

health and other aspects, it's thinking what is this balance for you, right?

Jonny Landels: 00:47:47

I've found a good balance for me in terms of my food and my fitness

Jonny Landels: 00:47:51

might be a bit skewed at the moment just because of lifestyle changes.

Jonny Landels: 00:47:55

I'm educated enough to know that your life is very seasonal, like the season

Jonny Landels: 00:48:01

that I'm in right now won't last forever.

Jonny Landels: 00:48:03

And there'll be a season when I'm back to.

Jonny Landels: 00:48:05

The routine I was pre moving into the house I'm in now and where

Jonny Landels: 00:48:10

my baby will be older and things will be a bit more settled, right?

Stephen Box: 00:48:15

Yeah, and I think something you just mentioned there that's so

Stephen Box: 00:48:18

important is this idea that we have these different seasons, right?

Stephen Box: 00:48:24

and I talk about, and I know you're familiar with this concept of the dial,

Stephen Box: 00:48:28

where if we just imagine that there's 10 different levels of whatever it is that

Stephen Box: 00:48:34

we're trying to focus on, whether it's exercise, nutrition, whatever, right?

Stephen Box: 00:48:37

Yeah.

Stephen Box: 00:48:38

And the idea is that there is no off knob, right?

Stephen Box: 00:48:41

It's just, there's level one, which is Okay, when things are absolutely

Stephen Box: 00:48:45

crazy, I can at least still do this.

Stephen Box: 00:48:47

And maybe that's I'm gonna do five push ups, or maybe it's I'm gonna eat

Stephen Box: 00:48:51

a serving, at least one serving of veggies today, or whatever, right?

Stephen Box: 00:48:55

It's what is the simple thing you can do?

Stephen Box: 00:48:58

All the way up to like level 10, like life is absolutely a breeze right

Stephen Box: 00:49:03

now and I can max out my effort and the reality is that most of us are

Stephen Box: 00:49:10

rarely ever going to be at a 10 and we're rarely ever going to be at a 1.

Stephen Box: 00:49:16

We're going to probably live somewhere between 4 and 7.

Jonny Landels: 00:49:23

I love the dial concept for that exact reason, Stephen.

Jonny Landels: 00:49:25

It's a really good thing to add to that part of that conversation.

Stephen Box: 00:49:28

I think for a lot of people, one other thing that I want to touch on

Stephen Box: 00:49:31

here is, we, you mentioned that people have these fears around letting things

Stephen Box: 00:49:38

go because there is this fear of, if I do that, I'm going to gain weight.

Stephen Box: 00:49:42

If I do that, my health is going to decline, right?

Stephen Box: 00:49:46

Yeah, but at the same time, most of those people probably already engaging in

Stephen Box: 00:49:54

things like strict dieting, like we talked about the bulking cutting thing earlier,

Stephen Box: 00:50:00

or, things like New Year's resolutions.

Stephen Box: 00:50:03

Things that are not going to be sustainable or they're trying to

Stephen Box: 00:50:06

do like the 30 day, diet shred or whatever, 14 day lean thing, like you're

Stephen Box: 00:50:10

talking about earlier, those things also are going to have the exact same

Stephen Box: 00:50:14

impact on what, so how do we start helping people to see that correlation

Stephen Box: 00:50:20

or did I just do it to help them

Jonny Landels: 00:50:21

see it?

Jonny Landels: 00:50:21

yeah, exactly.

Jonny Landels: 00:50:22

just know that every time you see something that has that kind

Jonny Landels: 00:50:26

of language attached to it, that it's just, it's the same thing,

Jonny Landels: 00:50:28

just wrapped up in a different.

Jonny Landels: 00:50:30

Packaging.

Stephen Box: 00:50:33

So what are your final thoughts that you want to

Stephen Box: 00:50:36

be able to share with people here?

Stephen Box: 00:50:37

So if there's just one or two things that you could have somebody walk

Stephen Box: 00:50:41

away with today, what would they be?

Jonny Landels: 00:50:45

There would be that life is too short to obsess over being

Jonny Landels: 00:50:50

as lean as possible and that if that pursuit is leading you to a place

Jonny Landels: 00:50:55

that is actually very unhealthy in terms of your mental health and the

Jonny Landels: 00:51:00

practices that you're going through.

Jonny Landels: 00:51:02

incredible obsession, and discipline that actually has a

Jonny Landels: 00:51:06

negative effect on a lot of things.

Jonny Landels: 00:51:08

You've got to ask yourself whether that really is the definition of

Jonny Landels: 00:51:11

health and whether you really can see yourself doing that for the long term.

Jonny Landels: 00:51:16

Yeah.

Jonny Landels: 00:51:16

Because it's not, and you need to think about what your minimum effective dose

Jonny Landels: 00:51:21

is and start working more towards that.

Jonny Landels: 00:51:26

Let's take

Stephen Box: 00:51:27

that in the last one, one step further.

Stephen Box: 00:51:29

What would be some of the warning signs that somebody might be looking for to

Stephen Box: 00:51:34

know that this mentality is having a negative impact on their mental health?

Jonny Landels: 00:51:40

I'd say if you become so anxious about your food

Jonny Landels: 00:51:43

and weight on a daily basis, right?

Jonny Landels: 00:51:45

Like that, that they're things that you can never stop thinking about

Jonny Landels: 00:51:48

and that thoughts about food and exercise take up, 60, 70, 80, 90

Jonny Landels: 00:51:54

percent of your thinking space or more, and you're waking up every day.

Jonny Landels: 00:51:58

You're treading, stepping on the scale, stepping on the scale, dictates your mood

Jonny Landels: 00:52:03

for that day, thoughts about food are just revolving around how many calories

Jonny Landels: 00:52:08

are in it, whether or not it's worth it, whether or not, you can burn it off

Jonny Landels: 00:52:11

with some extra exercise, or whether you should go to that social event, or whether

Jonny Landels: 00:52:15

you should have lunch with your wife, or whether you need to, start cooking your

Jonny Landels: 00:52:18

own food again, or, Oh crap, I had a couple of the kids after school, cookies.

Jonny Landels: 00:52:24

That's when it's like, those are warning signs, right?

Jonny Landels: 00:52:26

that's when you're getting into that disordered level territory where it's

Jonny Landels: 00:52:29

so obsessive and anxiety inducing rather than just a healthy behavior that

Jonny Landels: 00:52:36

you feel good doing on a daily basis.

Jonny Landels: 00:52:39

Yeah, I, I

Stephen Box: 00:52:40

love that list and I'll just even maybe add a couple here of

Stephen Box: 00:52:46

one way you might know that you're overdoing things or that you're getting

Stephen Box: 00:52:50

a little too obsessed with things is.

Stephen Box: 00:52:52

Listening to your body.

Stephen Box: 00:52:53

if you feel like you're not recovering well, you're sore all the time.

Stephen Box: 00:52:59

You're not, your energy levels aren't what they need to be.

Stephen Box: 00:53:03

Maybe you're quick to get angry with your spouse or your kids and yell at them.

Stephen Box: 00:53:09

Those are all things that are telling you like, Hey, you're, you need to dial back.

Stephen Box: 00:53:15

You're doing too much right now.

Stephen Box: 00:53:18

100%.

Stephen Box: 00:53:19

so Johnny, if someone wants to be able to reach out with you further

Stephen Box: 00:53:22

this conversation or they want to work with you for coaching,

Stephen Box: 00:53:25

what's the best way for them to get

Jonny Landels: 00:53:26

a hold of you?

Jonny Landels: 00:53:28

Best place without a shadow of a doubt is Instagram.

Jonny Landels: 00:53:30

It's my main platform.

Jonny Landels: 00:53:32

I do have a podcast if people want to listen more to me, but I'm mostly speaking

Jonny Landels: 00:53:37

with other people just like you are.

Jonny Landels: 00:53:39

so the podcast is called Beyond the Mirror.

Jonny Landels: 00:53:40

but if they want to check me out, then Instagram is the best place, right?

Jonny Landels: 00:53:43

And Instagram is just my name.

Jonny Landels: 00:53:46

and my name is Johnny without an H.

Jonny Landels: 00:53:48

So it's J O N N Y.

Jonny Landels: 00:53:50

And my name Landles, although rhyming with candles.

Jonny Landels: 00:53:53

Spelled L-A-N-D-E-L-S.

Jonny Landels: 00:53:56

So it's a an ELS rather than LES.

Jonny Landels: 00:53:58

so those would be the two best places.

Jonny Landels: 00:54:00

Okay.

Jonny Landels: 00:54:01

And

Stephen Box: 00:54:01

Perfect.

Stephen Box: 00:54:01

and with that, guys, I just want to remind you as always that while

Stephen Box: 00:54:06

none of us are born unshakeable, we can all become unshakeable.

Stephen Box: 00:54:14

Intro/Outro: Thank you for listening to the Unshakable Habits

Stephen Box: 00:54:17

podcast with Coach Stephen Bucks.

Stephen Box: 00:54:19

Be sure to hit the subscribe button and help us spread the word by

Stephen Box: 00:54:23

sharing the podcast with other men.

Stephen Box: 00:54:25

If you're ready to create Unshakable Habits, you can learn more and

Stephen Box: 00:54:29

connect with us at unshakablehabits.

Stephen Box: 00:54:32

com.