We often assume that architects working on the same system share the same understanding of its structure. They're looking at the same code, attending the same meetings — surely they see the same thing. But what happens when you actually test that assumption?

That's the challenge Aino Corry faced when she was brought into a large American company to help a team of architects understand their monolith before breaking it into microservices. When she asked for a full day, the response was skeptical: "A whole day? We're just gonna look at some diagrams." But Aino held firm. Drawing on work with Simon Brown, she gave the architects a deceptively simple task: draw the component diagram of the monolith from memory, without looking at the code. Then they put every diagram on the wall — and walked the line. The surprise was immediate. Architects who'd been working on the same system for years had fundamentally incompatible mental models of its core structure. Using the liberating structure 1-2-4-All, Aino turned that surprise into a conversation unlike any they'd had before — one where not knowing became acceptable, and the quiet voices finally had room to speak.

This conversation explores how externalising individual mental models creates richer architectural discussions, why structured facilitation changes who gets heard, how to handle the vocal skeptic who thinks you've wasted their day, and the consultant's dilemma of never quite knowing if your workshop made a lasting difference — unless you happen to have a spy in the organisation you drink red wine with.

Key Discussion Points

• [00:01] Setting the Stage: Aino explains how she came to facilitate architecture workshops even though she's no longer a practicing architect — and why the same facilitation dynamics apply regardless of domain
• [00:02] A Whole Day? Really?: The team's resistance to spending a full day on understanding before doing, and why Aino insisted on it
• [00:04] Draw What You Know: The deceptively simple exercise of drawing the monolith's component diagram from memory — without looking at the code
• [00:05] Walking the Wall: The moment architects discovered their mental models of the same system were fundamentally incompatible
• [00:08] You Can't Win Them All: How one vocal skeptic dismissed the day as a waste of time, while newer team members found it invaluable
• [00:12] The Champion Skeptic: Aino reflects on what she'd do differently now — using Linda Rising's pattern to redirect skepticism into constructive energy
• [00:16] The Consultant's Dilemma: How do you know if your workshop actually made a difference once you've left the building?
• [00:22] To Understand Everything Is to Forgive Everything: Why seeing each other's mental models changed judgment into curiosity

Guest: Aino Corry Hosts: Kenny Schwegler, Andrea Magnorsky

Hello and welcome to another episode of Stories on facilitating

2

00:00:06,209 --> 00:00:07,889

Software design and architecture.

3

00:00:08,369 --> 00:00:09,029

Today.

4

00:00:09,119 --> 00:00:16,479

We're joined by, I know Corey, and as

usual, I'm used, joined by, Kenny, norm

5

00:00:16,628 --> 00:00:20,948

Coconspirator in this, uh, anyway, I know.

6

00:00:20,948 --> 00:00:21,849

Please take it away.

7

00:00:23,035 --> 00:00:23,255

Aino Vonge: Yes.

8

00:00:23,380 --> 00:00:23,860

Thank you.

9

00:00:23,860 --> 00:00:25,270

Thank you for inviting me.

10

00:00:25,775 --> 00:00:26,095

I was a bit.

11

00:00:26,845 --> 00:00:31,345

Hustled when you admired me for this

because it's been a long time since I

12

00:00:31,345 --> 00:00:33,894

actually was a software architect myself.

13

00:00:34,435 --> 00:00:37,944

I was always very interested in

design patterns and architecture

14

00:00:37,944 --> 00:00:42,025

patterns and software architecture,

and I remember making software

15

00:00:42,025 --> 00:00:47,995

architecture around the first Bluetooth

communication when that started, and I.

16

00:00:49,015 --> 00:00:53,334

Thought about the invitation then I

thought, but actually, even though

17

00:00:53,334 --> 00:00:57,775

what I'm doing most of all now is

facilitation, I'm doing facilitation

18

00:00:57,775 --> 00:01:01,105

of architecture workshops even

though I'm not myself doing the work.

19

00:01:02,215 --> 00:01:07,195

And in those architecture facilitation

workshops or in the facilitation

20

00:01:07,195 --> 00:01:11,845

of architecture workshops, the same

things happen as when I facilitate

21

00:01:11,845 --> 00:01:13,465

any other workshop because it is.

22

00:01:13,869 --> 00:01:18,429

Obviously just people that are

communicating about things, so it's

23

00:01:18,429 --> 00:01:22,030

the same things that are important, and

one of the things that are very much

24

00:01:22,030 --> 00:01:26,289

important when you are facilitating

anything is that you get to hear from

25

00:01:26,289 --> 00:01:31,090

everybody who is in the room, not

just from the most important people or

26

00:01:31,090 --> 00:01:32,859

from the people who are the loudest.

27

00:01:33,850 --> 00:01:37,810

And it has been my experience before

I started facilitating when I sort

28

00:01:37,810 --> 00:01:41,620

of just went to software architecture

design meetings that some people

29

00:01:42,220 --> 00:01:45,640

would have more say than others

and not necessarily because they

30

00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:50,590

were better at making decisions or

understanding the software architecture.

31

00:01:52,420 --> 00:01:56,229

So I want to tell you a story

about a software architecture

32

00:01:56,229 --> 00:01:58,990

workshop is about 10 years ago.

33

00:01:59,604 --> 00:02:06,025

It was in a, a big American company,

so we had a lot of architects

34

00:02:06,085 --> 00:02:09,413

in the room that were working on

different parts of the system.

35

00:02:10,103 --> 00:02:15,385

The system was a monolith, and it was

the time when everybody wanted to divide

36

00:02:15,385 --> 00:02:17,425

their monolith into microservices.

37

00:02:17,425 --> 00:02:21,055

So there was a lot of architecture

workshops around understanding your

38

00:02:21,055 --> 00:02:26,005

monolith and figuring out what bite-sized

microservices you should take out of it.

39

00:02:26,935 --> 00:02:28,234

But with everything else you.

40

00:02:29,065 --> 00:02:31,585

You need to understand what

it's you're working with before

41

00:02:31,585 --> 00:02:32,575

you start working with it.

42

00:02:34,075 --> 00:02:38,635

So I said, I, I think I could facilitate a

workshop to understand the monolith before

43

00:02:38,635 --> 00:02:41,335

you start dividing it into microservices.

44

00:02:41,335 --> 00:02:46,405

And I, I said to them that I would

like a whole day and they said,

45

00:02:46,615 --> 00:02:53,035

well, a whole day, really, we're

just gonna look at some diagrams.

46

00:02:53,035 --> 00:02:55,915

And I said, but no, but I really,

I really need a whole day.

47

00:02:57,190 --> 00:02:59,110

And reluctantly they said yes.

48

00:02:59,290 --> 00:03:04,600

And let me in this room with all these

highly paid software architects and

49

00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:12,710

I, I started off with some, some ice

breaking, talking about how are we today

50

00:03:12,710 --> 00:03:15,080

and what are our expectations for this?

51

00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:18,710

And some people were more eager to

talk about that than other people.

52

00:03:19,350 --> 00:03:19,470

and.

53

00:03:20,340 --> 00:03:24,329

Gave me information about who they were

and how much they wanted to talk or not

54

00:03:24,329 --> 00:03:28,140

talk, which is important information

for me from, for the rest of the day,

55

00:03:28,140 --> 00:03:32,100

who should I tease into saying something

more and who should I try to maybe

56

00:03:32,100 --> 00:03:33,900

suppress or put into smaller groups?

57

00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:41,730

And I discussed with Simon Brown, um,

how to do this because you remember

58

00:03:41,730 --> 00:03:45,090

his C four model and all these

different workshops that he's doing.

59

00:03:45,090 --> 00:03:47,475

So I had asked him for input and he said.

60

00:03:48,525 --> 00:03:54,555

What could be fun could probably be to

make everybody draw on a piece of actual

61

00:03:54,555 --> 00:04:01,215

paper, the component diagram of this

monolith, and then try to compare them.

62

00:04:02,175 --> 00:04:07,425

And I said to them that I would now

give them time to draw that component

63

00:04:07,425 --> 00:04:14,145

diagram, but without looking at the code,

just drawing it as they believed it was.

64

00:04:15,315 --> 00:04:16,575

And initially they.

65

00:04:17,159 --> 00:04:19,829

They thought it was a bit silly

because they wanted to just look

66

00:04:19,829 --> 00:04:22,719

at the code, but I said, well,

let's try it out because it's, it's

67

00:04:22,719 --> 00:04:27,879

my, your job is to be a software

architect for this particular system.

68

00:04:27,939 --> 00:04:30,549

So it's interesting to see

what you have in your heads.

69

00:04:31,119 --> 00:04:33,849

And it's not a competition

about who does it best.

70

00:04:33,849 --> 00:04:38,949

It's, it's just, um, trying to figure out

can we make a brain dump of the situation?

71

00:04:39,669 --> 00:04:40,210

And they did.

72

00:04:40,210 --> 00:04:43,119

They all made their brain

dump on a piece of paper.

73

00:04:44,290 --> 00:04:49,780

Individually, and then we put the pieces

of paper on the wall, all of them.

74

00:04:50,020 --> 00:04:52,830

And then we just took

a walk down the wall.

75

00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:59,659

And that was a huge surprise for them

because there were some things that they

76

00:04:59,659 --> 00:05:03,290

were in agreement about, but there were

some things where they were definitely

77

00:05:03,290 --> 00:05:06,230

in disagreement about how was the.

78

00:05:06,605 --> 00:05:08,495

The chain of control here.

79

00:05:08,955 --> 00:05:12,825

what knew about what parts of the

system, what could touch, what

80

00:05:12,825 --> 00:05:14,325

could see which part of the system.

81

00:05:14,325 --> 00:05:15,974

So that was really, really interesting.

82

00:05:17,414 --> 00:05:22,065

And then I asked them to first, just

without saying anything, just look at

83

00:05:22,065 --> 00:05:25,754

these diagrams and then think about it.

84

00:05:26,145 --> 00:05:30,495

Quietly and then talk about it

two and two to show each other.

85

00:05:30,495 --> 00:05:34,185

This is something that is really

weird because in my diagram it's

86

00:05:34,185 --> 00:05:35,805

not the same as in this diagram.

87

00:05:36,015 --> 00:05:39,555

And then after they talk two and two,

ask them to talk four and four it.

88

00:05:39,705 --> 00:05:42,255

It's the liberating

structures 1, 2, 4, all.

89

00:05:43,155 --> 00:05:47,835

And then after they talk four

and four, I finally went into the

90

00:05:47,835 --> 00:05:51,075

plenary with all of them and then.

91

00:05:51,734 --> 00:05:53,505

They could share if they wanted to.

92

00:05:54,224 --> 00:05:55,575

What were the surprises?

93

00:05:55,575 --> 00:05:56,924

What were their worries?

94

00:05:57,104 --> 00:05:59,414

What were the things that they

were still wondering about?

95

00:06:00,374 --> 00:06:01,304

And there was really interesting.

96

00:06:01,980 --> 00:06:06,150

To have them talk about this because

instead of just looking at the code and

97

00:06:06,150 --> 00:06:11,970

looking at the files, they had a real

genuine discussion about parts of the

98

00:06:11,970 --> 00:06:16,520

system, responsibility of parts of the

system, what, visibility you should

99

00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:17,989

have for different parts of the system.

100

00:06:17,989 --> 00:06:23,659

So it was, it became a, a software

architecture discussion on different level

101

00:06:23,780 --> 00:06:28,189

than they normally had, and it actually

enabled some people to say things.

102

00:06:28,549 --> 00:06:31,369

Who would normally be quiet

because they would be afraid

103

00:06:31,369 --> 00:06:32,989

of being absolutely correct.

104

00:06:33,049 --> 00:06:35,659

But this was not about

being absolutely correct.

105

00:06:36,049 --> 00:06:39,409

This was about having a discussion

about what, how we see this system.

106

00:06:41,929 --> 00:06:42,229

Yeah.

107

00:06:42,229 --> 00:06:47,370

And we went on in the afternoon

to look at the different sort of.

108

00:06:48,075 --> 00:06:53,284

Hotspots or problems in,

in the, um, in the system.

109

00:06:53,585 --> 00:06:54,784

So what are the risks?

110

00:06:54,825 --> 00:06:58,095

what are the places where it

would be a little bit bad?

111

00:06:58,095 --> 00:07:01,265

Before we did that, we consolidated

all the different diagrams.

112

00:07:01,265 --> 00:07:06,075

So we agreed on one component diagram,

and then we, again, individually

113

00:07:06,075 --> 00:07:09,825

looked at the different risks,

which had exactly the same effect.

114

00:07:10,545 --> 00:07:14,715

That because people were able to

individually think about it and share it.

115

00:07:15,660 --> 00:07:18,300

And then talk about it in

a more structured setting.

116

00:07:18,870 --> 00:07:21,060

it started some really

interesting discussions.

117

00:07:21,450 --> 00:07:21,690

Yeah.

118

00:07:22,260 --> 00:07:29,900

So that was my, initial story and I'm

eager to hear if you have any questions

119

00:07:29,900 --> 00:07:31,205

about it and what you think about it.

120

00:07:35,056 --> 00:07:38,271

Kenny Schwegler: Yeah,

so how you started with.

121

00:07:39,341 --> 00:07:40,151

Whole day

122

00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:40,820

Aino Vonge: Mm-hmm.

123

00:07:40,891 --> 00:07:41,761

Kenny Schwegler: I hear that a lot.

124

00:07:43,441 --> 00:07:46,321

feedback afterwards about that whole day?

125

00:07:46,321 --> 00:07:48,601

Did you get any feedback at all and.

126

00:07:49,165 --> 00:07:49,855

Aino Vonge: Yes, there was.

127

00:07:49,855 --> 00:07:52,405

There was one person

who was very negative.

128

00:07:52,900 --> 00:07:57,370

Afterwards, and he thought it had been

a, a tremendous waste of time because we

129

00:07:57,370 --> 00:07:59,170

could just have looked at the diagrams.

130

00:08:00,010 --> 00:08:04,570

And then there was a, a, a group that

were really, really happy because they

131

00:08:04,570 --> 00:08:08,170

had understood things in a different way

than they'd understood things before.

132

00:08:08,170 --> 00:08:11,890

And then there were some people who were

pretty new to the system, who were really,

133

00:08:11,890 --> 00:08:16,780

really happy about spending so much

time with it because as they said, you.

134

00:08:17,060 --> 00:08:20,359

You just get to understand something a

lot better if you're talking to people

135

00:08:20,359 --> 00:08:23,779

about it instead of just reading the

documents and looking at the code.

136

00:08:23,779 --> 00:08:29,509

So I did have still one person who

was negative about it, but all the

137

00:08:29,509 --> 00:08:34,609

others were either really happy

or moderately happy, but it is,

138

00:08:37,159 --> 00:08:38,359

you can't win them all.

139

00:08:40,669 --> 00:08:45,025

Kenny Schwegler: I, reminds me a bit of

dropping some new people in the center

140

00:08:45,025 --> 00:08:48,475

of London and let them navigate the

141

00:08:48,648 --> 00:08:49,459

Aino Vonge: Yes.

142

00:08:50,229 --> 00:08:50,979

Kenny Schwegler: Without a map,

143

00:08:51,319 --> 00:08:52,008

Aino Vonge: Yeah.

144

00:08:52,518 --> 00:08:53,089

Good luck.

145

00:08:53,110 --> 00:08:56,229

Kenny Schwegler: just cross

and have fun and like that.

146

00:08:56,260 --> 00:08:58,599

That's what reminds me

a little bit about the,

147

00:08:59,268 --> 00:08:59,658

Aino Vonge: Yep.

148

00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:00,069

Kenny Schwegler: map.

149

00:09:00,709 --> 00:09:01,189

Aino Vonge: Yes.

150

00:09:01,270 --> 00:09:01,510

Kenny Schwegler: Yeah,

151

00:09:02,010 --> 00:09:04,955

Andrea Magnorsky: Well, uh, it's

kind of like a, it's, it's very, if.

152

00:09:05,670 --> 00:09:08,580

can very much relate

to that in, many ways.

153

00:09:08,940 --> 00:09:15,719

And, just kind of wonder, do you, did you

repeat the, like what hap basically you

154

00:09:15,719 --> 00:09:20,484

got results, did you do the more of this?

155

00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:25,111

Aino Vonge: I didn't do the same

thing with the same group, but I was

156

00:09:25,111 --> 00:09:30,720

invited for subsets of the group to

facilitate shorter discussions about

157

00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:33,476

things so facilitating, for instance.

158

00:09:34,195 --> 00:09:38,096

We need to brainstorm about what

microservices to, to start with now.

159

00:09:38,096 --> 00:09:41,815

So this, this part, this whole day

was just about getting a shared

160

00:09:41,815 --> 00:09:43,795

understanding before they even started.

161

00:09:44,695 --> 00:09:48,985

And then we had shorter workshops

with smaller, subsets of the team

162

00:09:49,315 --> 00:09:52,825

where we would look at specific parts

of the systems and how can we cut,

163

00:09:52,975 --> 00:09:56,155

uh, the, the microservices out and.

164

00:09:57,370 --> 00:09:57,820

It.

165

00:09:58,630 --> 00:10:04,090

I never, so the most negative person,

I never facilitated that person again.

166

00:10:05,260 --> 00:10:09,310

not because the person was fired,

but just because I wasn't invited.

167

00:10:09,310 --> 00:10:10,870

It's always by invitation.

168

00:10:10,875 --> 00:10:12,610

I'm, I'm asked to do some things.

169

00:10:12,610 --> 00:10:14,740

I'm not pushed to do some things.

170

00:10:14,770 --> 00:10:15,070

Yeah.

171

00:10:16,326 --> 00:10:19,476

Kenny Schwegler: Yeah,

so did is that person.

172

00:10:19,476 --> 00:10:24,546

So I was wondering, right, I, I've seen

this happen before that that person that

173

00:10:24,546 --> 00:10:30,066

is the most negative is that also the

person generally talks a lot in this

174

00:10:30,066 --> 00:10:37,201

session and, How, if you go with the

other groups, did you experience any

175

00:10:37,201 --> 00:10:41,790

resistance from this other person, even

though you were not invited to facilitate?

176

00:10:41,790 --> 00:10:43,561

But I can imagine like you're in

177

00:10:43,750 --> 00:10:43,830

Aino Vonge: Hmm.

178

00:10:43,861 --> 00:10:47,431

Kenny Schwegler: group and yeah, but

this person didn't want X, Y, Z, and

179

00:10:48,070 --> 00:10:48,460

Aino Vonge: Yeah,

180

00:10:48,601 --> 00:10:50,671

Kenny Schwegler: get any You know?

181

00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:51,550

Aino Vonge: I did.

182

00:10:51,751 --> 00:10:52,886

Kenny Schwegler: go deal with that?

183

00:10:53,530 --> 00:10:54,340

Aino Vonge: Yes I did.

184

00:10:54,700 --> 00:10:59,070

I did with one of the soap subsets,

there was still some, the system,

185

00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:03,360

what you call some intervening

from, from that person's side.

186

00:11:03,510 --> 00:11:07,710

And one of the things that I'm now

regretting that I didn't do, if we

187

00:11:07,710 --> 00:11:13,590

should talk about that as well, is, This

person was a very, was a very skeptic

188

00:11:13,590 --> 00:11:17,640

person and and a very loud person.

189

00:11:18,180 --> 00:11:22,560

and I now have words for that,

which I didn't have at that time.

190

00:11:22,680 --> 00:11:27,450

Now, I would call him a skeptic and

a loud mouth, and I would, I would

191

00:11:27,450 --> 00:11:31,110

add some different, I would use some

different patterns for that person.

192

00:11:31,110 --> 00:11:34,800

For instance, the, the Champion Skeptic

from Linda Rising's book, fearless

193

00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:39,180

Change is, is a pattern that I use

a lot for people who are skeptic.

194

00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:42,505

And what I do is that I try to

get on a one-on-one with them.

195

00:11:43,856 --> 00:11:50,396

And I explained to them that their

skepticism towards me or towards

196

00:11:50,396 --> 00:11:54,835

the workshop towards changing the

monolith into microservices, whichever

197

00:11:54,835 --> 00:11:59,776

part it was, which I'm still not

sure about which part it was, but I

198

00:11:59,776 --> 00:12:03,646

would talk to that person one-on-one

and I would say, your skepticism.

199

00:12:04,036 --> 00:12:05,085

Is valuable.

200

00:12:05,305 --> 00:12:06,866

we need people who are skeptical.

201

00:12:06,866 --> 00:12:08,425

We need people who are questioning.

202

00:12:08,425 --> 00:12:11,906

We need people who are not just

accepting things for facts, without

203

00:12:12,536 --> 00:12:15,836

really understanding or being convinced.

204

00:12:16,376 --> 00:12:20,116

and then I would say to that person,

but right now we want to try to do this.

205

00:12:20,116 --> 00:12:22,876

It has been decided that

this is what we're doing.

206

00:12:22,876 --> 00:12:26,746

So just complaining about this

situation is not getting us anywhere.

207

00:12:26,746 --> 00:12:29,146

We should instead try to

be constructive about it.

208

00:12:29,146 --> 00:12:31,726

So could you help me be more constructive?

209

00:12:32,386 --> 00:12:34,425

About the next workshop that I do.

210

00:12:34,486 --> 00:12:36,915

That is what I would've done now.

211

00:12:37,606 --> 00:12:41,835

But it takes courage and it takes

understanding and sometimes thinking

212

00:12:41,835 --> 00:12:45,945

on your feet if you have more than 10

people in the room and you have a lot of

213

00:12:45,945 --> 00:12:50,776

people to pay attention to, and you know

that feeling when you start sweating a

214

00:12:50,776 --> 00:12:52,665

little bit and you want to seem cool.

215

00:12:54,286 --> 00:12:58,216

That's how I felt at that time,

and I think now that I'm wiser.

216

00:12:58,649 --> 00:12:58,889

Andrea Magnorsky: Yeah.

217

00:12:58,906 --> 00:12:59,205

Aino Vonge: Hmm.

218

00:12:59,430 --> 00:12:59,999

Andrea Magnorsky: It's funny, it

219

00:13:00,315 --> 00:13:00,616

Aino Vonge: Yeah.

220

00:13:00,659 --> 00:13:03,959

Andrea Magnorsky: of, uh, Evelyn's,

um, Evelyn's takeaway, like her

221

00:13:03,959 --> 00:13:09,369

learning was learn to listen to your

physical reactions and hard agree

222

00:13:09,369 --> 00:13:14,679

on when you're facilitating, being

aware of your body, telling you

223

00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:16,389

things that you don't want to know.

224

00:13:18,265 --> 00:13:20,875

Aino Vonge: Yes, I, I

agree very much with that.

225

00:13:20,965 --> 00:13:24,765

And it's something that I've worked with

a lot myself because I've had some, You

226

00:13:24,765 --> 00:13:26,895

can call it anger management issues.

227

00:13:26,895 --> 00:13:33,585

I get very excited, but it goes in all

directions and I can get, especially

228

00:13:33,585 --> 00:13:37,515

when I was younger, I could get really

frustrated with some people and,

229

00:13:37,565 --> 00:13:43,835

learning to, as you say, read those or

experience those feelings in myself.

230

00:13:44,810 --> 00:13:47,270

And, and maybe look at

them from the outside.

231

00:13:47,270 --> 00:13:48,500

That's what I tried to do.

232

00:13:48,500 --> 00:13:50,990

I tried to think, Ooh, interesting.

233

00:13:50,990 --> 00:13:51,800

I'm getting angry.

234

00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:54,950

Why am I getting angry and trying

to move away from myself and looking

235

00:13:54,950 --> 00:13:58,790

at myself from the outside saying,

what am I really angry about?

236

00:13:58,790 --> 00:13:59,460

Am I angry that.

237

00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:01,790

I cannot answer these questions.

238

00:14:01,790 --> 00:14:04,310

Am I angry that they're getting personal?

239

00:14:04,310 --> 00:14:07,040

Am I angry that I don't know what to do?

240

00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:08,980

Now, what does it actually come from?

241

00:14:08,980 --> 00:14:10,300

Does it come from fear?

242

00:14:10,300 --> 00:14:11,560

Does it come from something else?

243

00:14:11,560 --> 00:14:14,590

Because anger, anger I've learned

now is a secondary emotion.

244

00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:16,510

It's based on something else.

245

00:14:16,510 --> 00:14:18,010

You get angry because you're afraid.

246

00:14:18,010 --> 00:14:19,750

You get angry because you're sad.

247

00:14:19,750 --> 00:14:21,790

You get angry because

you're frustrated, right?

248

00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:26,470

So anger in itself is just a symptom

of something more interesting.

249

00:14:27,220 --> 00:14:28,865

So that's how I've worked with it.

250

00:14:29,245 --> 00:14:29,665

Mm-hmm.

251

00:14:29,854 --> 00:14:30,394

Andrea Magnorsky: nice to know.

252

00:14:30,604 --> 00:14:32,674

Um, and I have another question for you.

253

00:14:33,004 --> 00:14:37,744

Um, I was wondering how do you, you

know, you, you said how you're invited

254

00:14:37,744 --> 00:14:40,474

to do something, you know, and it's the.

255

00:14:41,139 --> 00:14:45,819

The consultant's dilemma, I guess, is,

is you, someone needs you for something

256

00:14:46,119 --> 00:14:49,839

and that means at least a subset of

the people that, that you're working

257

00:14:49,839 --> 00:14:51,429

with is actually want you there.

258

00:14:52,269 --> 00:14:55,779

But the rest is, you know, the rest

of the people you are involved with

259

00:14:55,779 --> 00:15:01,859

is, so you dunno, and you do some work

and there's some delineated thing,

260

00:15:01,929 --> 00:15:06,639

that it you're doing, doing there,

and then you don't know what happens.

261

00:15:07,824 --> 00:15:11,724

Like you are trying, you, you have an

objective in this case, and in most cases,

262

00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:12,280

Aino Vonge: Mm.

263

00:15:12,294 --> 00:15:15,294

Andrea Magnorsky: in your case was

like, well, help us understand better

264

00:15:15,624 --> 00:15:21,654

our, our monolith so that we can maybe

break it up or how to break it up.

265

00:15:22,014 --> 00:15:27,624

And it was about trying to find the,

the beginning, the kickoff of, of that.

266

00:15:27,624 --> 00:15:27,924

Right.

267

00:15:28,944 --> 00:15:33,714

so I assume possibly if, if not, please

correct me that that was what you were.

268

00:15:34,089 --> 00:15:37,629

Trying to do, but A, do

you know you've succeeded.

269

00:15:37,629 --> 00:15:40,029

But b, more that's,

that's my real question.

270

00:15:40,119 --> 00:15:43,449

How do you know you have done

the necessary side effects

271

00:15:43,449 --> 00:15:45,099

to achieve their outcome?

272

00:15:47,385 --> 00:15:49,885

Aino Vonge: That's, that's a very

interesting and very difficult

273

00:15:49,885 --> 00:15:53,545

question because if, if you're, if

you're only sent in there as, as a

274

00:15:53,545 --> 00:15:56,635

consultant to, to do something, then.

275

00:15:57,910 --> 00:16:00,310

That's something that I've

become a little bit better at.

276

00:16:00,310 --> 00:16:03,400

I've become better at asking

what are the success criteria?

277

00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:06,520

What is it that you want to

achieve from having me there?

278

00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:10,900

It's a bit like when I'm teaching now,

instead of just thinking what content do

279

00:16:10,900 --> 00:16:15,100

I want to teach the students, I'm thinking

about what learning goals do I have?

280

00:16:15,100 --> 00:16:17,470

What skills do they have afterwards?

281

00:16:18,070 --> 00:16:21,040

So I'm thinking about what is

it that they want to get out of.

282

00:16:21,580 --> 00:16:22,540

What I'm doing.

283

00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:27,100

And that's also why I often start with

expectation management in the beginning

284

00:16:27,100 --> 00:16:31,360

of the workshops, to make them reflect

about what they expect to get out

285

00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:35,920

of it and to make me understand what

will make this a success for them.

286

00:16:36,370 --> 00:16:39,040

And to come back to your

question about how do I know

287

00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:41,080

whether it worked, I sometimes.

288

00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:45,470

reach out to the company again

to ask what actually happened

289

00:16:45,470 --> 00:16:46,760

with the things that we did.

290

00:16:47,190 --> 00:16:49,050

did you come anywhere with that?

291

00:16:49,050 --> 00:16:50,730

Did you actually make the changes?

292

00:16:50,730 --> 00:16:54,990

And sometimes they say, sadly,

there was a lot of, politics that

293

00:16:54,990 --> 00:16:58,771

changed and organizational changed

and, and it was changed again.

294

00:16:59,281 --> 00:17:02,700

But most of the times when I reach

out, they say, well, we actually,

295

00:17:03,090 --> 00:17:04,349

we did get something outta it.

296

00:17:04,349 --> 00:17:04,829

Maybe not.

297

00:17:04,885 --> 00:17:07,405

All that we expected,

but at least some of it.

298

00:17:07,405 --> 00:17:13,565

And in this particular case, I have

a spy in the organization, that I

299

00:17:13,565 --> 00:17:15,454

drink red wine with from time to time.

300

00:17:15,454 --> 00:17:17,925

And then I could ask,

how is it actually going?

301

00:17:17,925 --> 00:17:22,575

And so I know that they actually moved

on with it, and I'm sure they could have

302

00:17:22,575 --> 00:17:27,906

done it without me, but, at least I know

that I didn't ruin anything for them

303

00:17:28,469 --> 00:17:29,189

waste their time.

304

00:17:29,234 --> 00:17:32,448

Andrea Magnorsky: I'm gonna, actually,

so I, I do a of this types of

305

00:17:32,454 --> 00:17:39,624

workshops and, can promise you that

you had a much better impact than.

306

00:17:40,524 --> 00:17:41,994

Just not making it worse.

307

00:17:42,024 --> 00:17:45,654

And maybe they could have done it, but

they would've done it a lot slower because

308

00:17:45,954 --> 00:17:53,424

sharing knowledge and having a cohesive or

more congruent understanding is invaluable

309

00:17:53,724 --> 00:17:55,794

to the point that is invaluable.

310

00:17:55,854 --> 00:17:58,374

And so very few people can ask for it.

311

00:17:59,724 --> 00:18:03,193

no, I'm gonna disagree with you,

but for the all the very nice

312

00:18:03,193 --> 00:18:05,984

reasons, which is that I think you

actually made a massive impact.

313

00:18:08,249 --> 00:18:09,179

Aino Vonge: Thank you, Andrea.

314

00:18:09,269 --> 00:18:10,229

Now I feel very good.

315

00:18:10,769 --> 00:18:13,529

I was starting to get a bit

depressed about thinking about it.

316

00:18:13,819 --> 00:18:14,028

Andrea Magnorsky: No.

317

00:18:16,385 --> 00:18:17,405

Kenny Schwegler: That's the hard part.

318

00:18:17,655 --> 00:18:21,196

me and Evelyn talk a lot about some

workshops we do around our book.

319

00:18:21,285 --> 00:18:21,615

Right.

320

00:18:21,615 --> 00:18:26,476

And we are always, always scared

because we come in a little bit

321

00:18:26,476 --> 00:18:27,976

about social science, right.

322

00:18:27,976 --> 00:18:28,845

Evelyn's part.

323

00:18:28,845 --> 00:18:32,385

And, and every time afterwards we

call up and like, oh, this was fun.

324

00:18:32,385 --> 00:18:33,976

But before we call each other up and like.

325

00:18:35,970 --> 00:18:37,320

They won't like this.

326

00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:40,590

And, and I'm gonna give a talk

about ranking theory and that's

327

00:18:40,590 --> 00:18:42,270

so far away from these engineers.

328

00:18:42,270 --> 00:18:43,800

And then afterwards, you know, and

329

00:18:44,410 --> 00:18:44,800

Aino Vonge: Yeah.

330

00:18:44,910 --> 00:18:48,150

Kenny Schwegler: I still, and

every time we talk to each other

331

00:18:48,570 --> 00:18:51,750

because, and now you are, you're

telling about We are, we are joking.

332

00:18:51,990 --> 00:18:52,170

Yeah.

333

00:18:52,170 --> 00:18:52,620

Come on.

334

00:18:52,620 --> 00:18:55,410

We need to just tell each

other this constantly.

335

00:18:55,460 --> 00:18:55,880

Aino Vonge: Yes.

336

00:18:55,940 --> 00:18:56,585

I think you're right.

337

00:18:56,636 --> 00:18:58,406

Kenny Schwegler: because, yeah, because.

338

00:18:59,156 --> 00:19:02,321

And, and that's one thing that

pops up to me sometimes when you

339

00:19:02,321 --> 00:19:04,631

do this or a training or anything.

340

00:19:04,631 --> 00:19:08,431

And you see people having

like, some epiphanies I saw

341

00:19:08,695 --> 00:19:09,115

Aino Vonge: Mm-hmm.

342

00:19:09,391 --> 00:19:13,861

Kenny Schwegler: but then they go back

to their working environment and even

343

00:19:13,861 --> 00:19:19,141

though they, they had this instant

gratification, which is for instance,

344

00:19:19,141 --> 00:19:22,351

different than when you go to a gym,

which is not instant gratification,

345

00:19:22,351 --> 00:19:24,391

that will happen over months and months.

346

00:19:24,391 --> 00:19:27,151

But in this case, they get it,

but then they go back and then.

347

00:19:28,006 --> 00:19:31,666

then it might get, it might have

changed, but it's hard for them to

348

00:19:31,666 --> 00:19:34,306

experience that, that it was positive.

349

00:19:34,306 --> 00:19:38,416

What, and even though you just said,

I know it's, I'm not really sure

350

00:19:38,416 --> 00:19:41,416

if it was me that catalyzed this or

351

00:19:41,739 --> 00:19:42,429

Andrea Magnorsky: Well, I,

352

00:19:42,676 --> 00:19:42,916

Kenny Schwegler: That's

353

00:19:43,004 --> 00:19:44,864

Andrea Magnorsky: I think this is

like, it is one of those things

354

00:19:44,864 --> 00:19:47,054

that are really hard to, to measure.

355

00:19:48,184 --> 00:19:48,934

You can see

356

00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:49,420

Aino Vonge: Mm-hmm.

357

00:19:49,984 --> 00:19:52,114

Andrea Magnorsky: between companies

that have had something like

358

00:19:52,114 --> 00:19:54,124

this and companies that have not

359

00:19:54,155 --> 00:19:54,485

Aino Vonge: Yeah.

360

00:19:54,604 --> 00:19:55,084

Andrea Magnorsky: of this.

361

00:19:56,660 --> 00:19:56,960

Aino Vonge: Yep.

362

00:19:57,064 --> 00:20:01,474

Andrea Magnorsky: it's kind of, I love

to hear your take, especially, I know,

363

00:20:01,804 --> 00:20:08,374

but obviously it, but it's, it's, I feel

like it breaks down some of the silos.

364

00:20:08,434 --> 00:20:09,964

It can be the catalyst

365

00:20:10,345 --> 00:20:10,765

Aino Vonge: Mm-hmm.

366

00:20:10,954 --> 00:20:15,154

Andrea Magnorsky: people that didn't know

that they were aligned in ideas, thoughts,

367

00:20:15,154 --> 00:20:16,804

and mental models to kind of go like.

368

00:20:17,569 --> 00:20:20,569

Actually, I thought this person

was completely wrong initially.

369

00:20:20,569 --> 00:20:23,449

But then as we went through learning

370

00:20:23,630 --> 00:20:23,930

Aino Vonge: Yep.

371

00:20:24,589 --> 00:20:28,759

Andrea Magnorsky: what we, each of us

know, you cannot converge somewhere.

372

00:20:29,099 --> 00:20:33,579

and that's exactly where,

where I think it can, where you

373

00:20:33,579 --> 00:20:35,799

can see the value basically.

374

00:20:35,799 --> 00:20:39,654

If there was a way to capture that

and say this is where the value is.

375

00:20:40,659 --> 00:20:41,559

But I think it's just

376

00:20:41,591 --> 00:20:41,880

Aino Vonge: Yeah.

377

00:20:42,489 --> 00:20:43,749

Andrea Magnorsky: really to to know.

378

00:20:46,165 --> 00:20:46,585

Aino Vonge: Yeah.

379

00:20:46,706 --> 00:20:50,485

And that what you're saying now,

Andrea, makes me think about.

380

00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:54,640

So when I'm facilitating retrospectives

or talking about facilitating

381

00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:59,680

retrospectives, I'm, I'm always quoting

my, my late father who said, to understand

382

00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:01,570

everything is to forgive everything.

383

00:21:02,740 --> 00:21:06,430

And that was actually, now that I think

about it based on what you just said,

384

00:21:06,970 --> 00:21:09,010

some of what happened in that workshop.

385

00:21:09,010 --> 00:21:14,440

Because when they understood what others

understood, then they understood why

386

00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:18,385

they did those stupid things, right.

387

00:21:19,360 --> 00:21:21,730

Because they had a

different understanding.

388

00:21:23,859 --> 00:21:24,609

Andrea Magnorsky: I love that.

389

00:21:25,719 --> 00:21:26,469

That's really nice.

390

00:21:27,436 --> 00:21:28,096

Kenny Schwegler: That's a good one.

391

00:21:28,146 --> 00:21:28,626

Andrea Magnorsky: Yes.

392

00:21:29,083 --> 00:21:32,083

Kenny Schwegler: I think that's

a good wrap of, this story and

393

00:21:33,523 --> 00:21:34,913

I think what I get out of it.

394

00:21:35,653 --> 00:21:40,663

One heuristic is whenever you

do facilitation for yourself, at

395

00:21:40,663 --> 00:21:42,103

least try to get some feedback.

396

00:21:42,457 --> 00:21:43,087

Aino Vonge: Yes.

397

00:21:43,243 --> 00:21:44,203

Kenny Schwegler: do it for the wine.

398

00:21:44,482 --> 00:21:46,012

Aino Vonge: Yeah, at

least do it for the wine.

399

00:21:46,012 --> 00:21:46,402

Yes.

400

00:21:48,163 --> 00:21:48,343

Kenny Schwegler: Good.

401

00:21:48,343 --> 00:21:48,643

Self.

402

00:21:49,093 --> 00:21:50,323

Self, how do you say it?

403

00:21:50,953 --> 00:21:55,063

Giving yourself that attention that

actually this is the impact because

404

00:21:55,063 --> 00:21:58,333

it's so hard to get that out of that

one workshop because it takes longer So.

405

00:21:58,537 --> 00:21:59,437

Aino Vonge: It is, it is.

406

00:21:59,437 --> 00:22:01,417

And you, and sometimes you're just gone.

407

00:22:01,987 --> 00:22:04,357

And then you start thinking,

okay, they, they laughed.

408

00:22:04,357 --> 00:22:08,077

They gave me good evaluations right after

the workshop or right after the talk.

409

00:22:08,077 --> 00:22:10,057

But does it actually have an impact?

410

00:22:10,057 --> 00:22:11,977

Am I actually making a change?

411

00:22:12,997 --> 00:22:17,557

So, so going back and asking or, or

even getting red wine with, with a spy

412

00:22:17,557 --> 00:22:21,757

from the company is, is, has really

been good for, for my self worth.

413

00:22:22,257 --> 00:22:23,132

Andrea Magnorsky: All right, well on note.

414

00:22:26,178 --> 00:22:27,697

This is, the end of this episode.

415

00:22:27,848 --> 00:22:28,298

Thank you.

416

00:22:28,298 --> 00:22:32,947

I know for your time and your story,

Kenny, we'll see you the next time.

417

00:22:34,268 --> 00:22:34,778

Bye.

418

00:22:35,574 --> 00:22:36,684

Aino Vonge: Thank you for having me.

419

00:22:36,714 --> 00:22:37,344

Bye-bye.

420

00:22:38,505 --> 00:22:39,135

Kenny Schwegler: Bye bye.