In this episode, we welcome Michael Flynn from 12 Points. Michael talks about the origins and mission of 12 Points, a marketing umbrella startup currently in its launch phase. He discusses his unique background in marketing, PR, and print, and how his career journey led him to 12 Points. Michael emphasizes the importance of proactive marketing strategies, integrating digital and print media, and leveraging data to create personalized and effective campaigns. He also shares insights on the use of QR codes, personal URLs, and the power of print in today's fragmented media landscape. Additionally, Michael offers advice on career management and personal anecdotes, making the conversation both informative and relatable.

00:00 Introduction to Michael Flynn and 12 Points

02:02 Michael Flynn's Career Journey

04:51 Networking and Industry Connections

06:37 Strategies for Print and Marketing Integration

25:13 The Role of Data in Marketing

30:52 Career Advice and Personal Reflections

34:25 Conclusion and Farewell

Follow Michael on LinkedIn

Additional Links and Resources:

• Lisa Wekellis on LinkedIn
• Laura Szczes on LinkedIn
• Double Z Media Website
• Double Z Media on LinkedIn

Thanks for tuning in! Subscribe to The Paid Media Playbook on iTunes and Spotify, and leave us a review!

Hello, welcome, Michael Flynn.

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Michael works at 12 point.

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Michael, , thank you for coming today.

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tell us a little bit about 12 point.

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Michael: Yeah, so 12 Points is

really a a launch organization.

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So we are a startup.

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We have been in I'll say stealth mode.

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I am right now the only

employee at 12 Points.

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it's a, it's a marketing

umbrella organization that are.

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Owner decided to launch, and my, my

job is to essentially not only go to

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market and build new clients for all,

of the companies within our portfolio.

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And there's five basically five

companies that we own that do print

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and promotion and marketing services

but to help individually, each of

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those companies to cross sell as well.

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you know, the majority of of our

clients a they don't know, they've

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never heard of of 12 points.

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'cause nobody's heard of 12 points.

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And so we've got kind of a launch to

go to them and say, Hey, we're a part

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of this organization called 12 Points.

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So, you know, their communication

coming from AAA or from Quality Press

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or from PMA are gonna basically be

able to say, Hey, this is, this is what

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we do now, but we're actually part of

a bigger family of companies and we

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have a lot more resources available to

you then we've told you in the past.

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And so that's kind of

what's gonna be going on.

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And you're gonna hear more from

us than you've heard from us

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in the past, which is zero.

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Laura: Yeah.

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So how did you get started?

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First of all, in print

and, yeah, let's start

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Michael: Yeah.

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So I mean, it's funny because

I, my background is, is

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very much in, in marketing.

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I started as a sports writer.

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while I was in college, I worked for

two years, two plus years as a sports

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reporter for the Bellingham Herald.

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You know, I worked just enough during

the time that I was going to school

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that they didn't have to pay me

benefits and you know, all that stuff.

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And

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Laura: Hmm.

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Michael: decided that I did not want

to go work an overnight shift on

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the sports desk, like the Pendleton

Register or something, you know,

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crazy like that, the Wenatchee world.

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Laura: You can cover the roundup.

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Michael: I went into the world of pr.

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And so through pr I first at the

Seattle Chamber of Commerce, and

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then I worked for a, a, local PR

agency and, and got into the sort

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of the marketing arena through that.

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But you know, all through everything

that I've done, the titles have changed.

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My industries have changed, but the job

has been almost the same all the way

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through, which is creatively finding.

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Ways to either help the organization that

I work for or to help the clients that

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I'm working on behalf of to creatively

find new channels of revenue to open

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new doors to tell their story better.

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I mean, just sort of all of that stuff.

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And print was always a big piece of that.

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I worked for the parent company

for the Puget Sound Business

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Journal for six, almost six years.

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And when I was very young and I, I

launched a publication on the east side

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called the east Side Business Journal

that essentially competed against

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PSBJ in that corner of the world.

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And it was very much a pr marketing

job trying to, you know, find a way to

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compete against PSBJ was really fun.

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but I was also then doing things

like press checks at, you know, one

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in the morning for the paper that

was gonna get mailed the next day.

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so I learned between the newspaper

world and then also the, the

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jobs that we did for clients.

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I learned quite a bit about printing.

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And and then I spent 10 years working in

the gift industry, but I worked for a.

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Social stationary company.

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So most of our products, they're

journals, notebooks, gift books,

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greeting cards, things of that nature.

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So most all of our products were printed.

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And so, you know, very familiar

with the paper side of things.

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And then when I left that, I took a

flyer on a startup in the industry

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that didn't work out and was out on

the hunt for a job and ended up going

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to work as the head of sales for.

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Sort of a mid-size local print company.

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And that's totally serendipitous

very much by accident.

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But that's kind of where I've, I've been

for the last, you know, eight, nine years.

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So

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Laura: Nice.

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Nice.

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Well, there's gotta be a reason

why you seem to know everybody.

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So you were born here,

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Michael: I was born here.

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You know, I, I think the combination

of a couple things, Laura.

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I went to high school with a lot of

people who ended up kind of moving on

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and have done very cool things in their

professional careers and have sort

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of stayed in touch with some of them.

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Laura: Where'd you go to high school?

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Michael: went to Bishop Blanchet.

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Laura: Oh, exactly.

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Okay,

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Michael: Yep.

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By GreenLake.

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Yep.

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And so, you know, I learned a ton and

got to meet a lot of really, really

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cool people and see who the movers and

shakers of the city were when I was

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at the Seattle Chamber of Commerce.

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So I worked there for three years

in their communications department

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and, I, I got to know personally

and even get to be friends with.

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Jack Ferris, who now is best known

as Anna Ferris's dad, but he used

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to run Colin Weber in, in Seattle.

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And you know, Harold Carr, who was

the VP of Communications for the

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Boeing Company, I'd run into him at

Mariners Games long after he retired.

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And he is like, oh, Michael, how are you?

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You know what I mean?

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You kind of got to know who the

players were and then and then

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obviously working at the business

journal and, for the business journal,

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you, you are pretty plugged in.

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And I've also had the benefit

to be fair of my dad was the

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25 year publisher for PSBJ.

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And so I've gotten a

lot of doors open to me.

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From my dad's connection.

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So, benefits there.

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And then, you know, working in the

PR world, I worked for a, a really

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amazing woman named Pat Fury.

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And everybody knew, Pat Fury.

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And so, you know, between Pat and my dad

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Laura: you were at the Fury Group.

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Okay.

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Michael: I was early days when,

when Pat was still running it.

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Yeah.

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Laura: Gotcha.

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Wow.

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That is impressive background.

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And your dad too.

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Wow.

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Yeah.

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Good.

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I did not know that.

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So Michael, tell me what are you

doing to try to get these in addition

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to getting them to come together?

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Because, you know, we, we do paid

media here and I know we incorporate,

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you know, print pieces every so

often into our campaigns and customer

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funnels to try to, you know, and

we incorporate digital with that.

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Is that something you are trying to

do with these, is kind of bring some

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of these print shops into having more

in-house capabilities or more offerings?

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Michael: I mean, I would say yes.

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I, I is a short answer.

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I think that the biggest piece of it is

you know, I, I call it swimming upstream.

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I think one of the challenges, and

you and I have even talked about

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this, Laura, is one of my frustrations

working in the print world on the,

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on the business development side is

that a lot of printers are, are very

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tactical and they're very good at

getting their fingernails dirty with ink.

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but being able to do more than just

sit and wait for how do you solve

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this, this very specific print problem,

I've already figured out exactly what

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I'm gonna do, sort of leaves you at

the very bottom of the funnel with

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very little opportunity to truly

impact or effect what the results are.

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All you can really do is, hey, we can

make it pretty like most other printers

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can, and, you know, we'll get your

project done on time and on budget.

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Great.

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But you know, the, the bar at

that point is, is pretty low.

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So one of the things is being able

to be a true resource to your clients

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forces you to have something to say

to them besides like, Hey, let's, I,

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I'll, I'll bring by some paper samples.

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Right?

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Laura: Right.

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How can I make

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Your business grow?

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How can I, those sorts of

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Michael: yeah.

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Yeah.

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And, when they don't

think of you that way, so.

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one of the, the big pieces is

there's a lot of data components

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that drive good mailing projects.

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And, and obviously you have to be

able to do printing, to do mailing.

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But you know, I would sort of say that

the options available to most marketers

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in both an integrated you know, digital

and, and print fashion in terms of

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understanding what those capabilities

are, is not very well known still.

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But I would also say that that's,

that's something that they might

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hear from their agency or they might

hear from their media buyer like

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yourself, but usually they don't get good

advice from their print service provider.

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And, and so that's on us as an industry

for shame on us, for being a hundred

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percent tactical and not enough focused

on what the results actually could be.

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But not selling to the what

if possibilities, because

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there's a lot of them.

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And so, yeah.

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So that's a real goal of mine is to not

only, you know, get out and, and talk

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in the market about those opportunities

to the types of companies that that

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should be having those discussions,

you know, frankly may or may not be

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having those discussions with the

current print provider, but a big, big,

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piece of the job is to actually help.

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Maybe be the conduit for our existing

account teams with our current clients.

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Because our clients in, in most

situations, and I, I said this at other

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printers that I've worked, but they

usually don't know what you can do.

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They only know what you do for them.

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And so, you know, in our case, the

big, big chunk of it is it's like,

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Hey, gosh, we have been doing the

same thing over and over again, only.

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For these clients, for this

client for the last eight years.

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And it's amazing.

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And it's great that they've got

that and when they have to order

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business cards, they think of us.

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Have we ever really gone back out

to them and said, Hey, what are

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you doing relative to driving lead

generation for your sales team?

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Do you have a sales team?

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How many salespeople do you have?

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How are you generating leads for them?

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Do you do trade shows?

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You know, I mean, just

sort of the basic 1 0 1.

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But that's a piece of I

think an opportunity for, you

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know, the right print folks.

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And it's not that there's not people doing

that, but I would say as a general rule,

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most of them are, are on the receiving

side and very reactive versus proactive

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in terms of driving what their clients

could and should be maybe doing with their

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marketing dollars versus just, yes, we

can execute on what you're giving to us.

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Laura: Yeah, so it's really,

really just one little piece of

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campaign, and they're just like,

call us when you need that piece.

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Michael: Yep.

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Yep.

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It's very, and I'd say

sometimes it's formulaic.

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And it's nobody's fault.

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I guess it is the, the fault

of the, print service provider.

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If, if you're not going back

to them and saying, Hey,

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I saw that you're

launching this new product.

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What are you doing on that front?

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And you know, we've got some ideas.

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Can we come and have a meeting to

discuss what those ideas might be?

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But usually print folks

don't sell by ideas.

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They, they are very focused on what

it is that their clients are driving.

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So that's kind of an area where I

think that I would like and I do tend

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to like what I'm doing a lot more when

I'm having those kind of conversations.

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And, and getting invited to meetings

where somebody is saying, Hey, you

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know, we've got this meeting and

you had talked about this thing.

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Could you come and talk to the rest of

my team and my management about this?

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Because I don't have enough background

information to be smart about it, but I

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think it may be is something that we need.

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That to me is a much

more fun conversation.

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Then what's the best way to, to print this

business card or this brochure, you know?

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Laura: Mm-hmm.

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Yeah.

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Lisa: One question that we hear

quite a lot from our clients about

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printed materials, although frankly

also digital out of home and

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connected TV, is around the inclusion

of QR codes in their strategy.

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And I was wondering if you

had an opinion on that.

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Michael: Yeah.

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So there's, you know, I think that there's

a lot of people that are starting to do

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that, and between what's called you know,

pearls, personal URLs, so you can do.

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You know, if you're mailing the

5,000 people, you can have 5,000

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different personal URLs and, and

they drive to a landing page, right?

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So there's a company that works with

a lot of printers around the country.

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That's a software company outta

San Diego called Mindfire.

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And a lot of printers that do a lot

of really integrated direct marketing

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work with Mindfire because They'll

take your data and they'll generate the

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landing pages and they'll generate the

QR codes and things that you're gonna

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put into your, into your campaign.

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And there's a measurement tracking

spreadsheet, or like a digital

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dashboard that, that they give you so

you can sort of see what's going on.

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And I think for a lot of people

when they're doing mailing, you

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know, their concern is like, did

it actually get to the people?

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Because I only heard from a couple of

people and I thought I'd hear from a lot

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more and maybe it didn't get to them.

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And so being able to have some sort

of trackability and there's, there's

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USPS products that they offered

to do that you know, that work

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to, to varying different degrees.

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But the reality is, it, it's really about

creating the right campaign so that you

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get the right results and you're, you're

spending less of your energy figuring out.

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What do we get out to people

and did it get out to them?

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And you're really more track tracked

on, okay, you know what, the right

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people are responding and we're

getting this kind of response rate.

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And so, you know, with the personal

QR code, for example, if you give

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somebody a second experience, which

is if I, if I go from where that QR

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code takes me and it takes me to a

personal landing page and there's some

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information that personalizes it for

Lisa or Laura or Michael, particularly

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if you can do it beyond just the name.

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Right?

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So that's the piece that so many

marketers, I think fall down on

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is it's like, oh, variable data.

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I can use your name.

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like, no.

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You can say, you know, Laura, you

know, we hope that you're enjoying

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your summer in West Seattle.

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Right?

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Or, you know, whatever it is.

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I mean, you, you've got some data

that tells you who that person is.

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And so that really will

drive better response.

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And so one of the things with

print is that there used to be a

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lot of like junk junk mail, right?

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companies would print 25,000 of

the same piece, and they would

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buy a list and they'd send it

out and they'd see what happened.

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And the same offer went up to everybody.

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And there was no testing,

there was no personality to it.

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There was no one-to-one

communication today with the,

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Laura: Yeah, you better just

have some kind of crazy offer

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that, yeah, you had to really,

like, everything had to be like cut

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it in half, half price, you know?

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Michael: Yeah.

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And it's, well, and I think you

really wanna personalize the offer.

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So if I'm talking to you and you

are, you know, the admissions

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director for a private school.

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I should have some information based

on, Hey, we work with, you know, 35

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different private schools around the

Puget Sound area, and what do I know

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about what's driving their business?

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Right?

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And so I can personalize it in some way,

shape, or form so that I've got, you

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know, information that says to them,

Hey Lisa, we know as a, admissions

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director for small private school.

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These are the things that are

probably keeping you up at night.

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And, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah.

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And you can, you can even personalize

it down to, obviously the name of

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the school, the location of it,

but some other variable factors

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including photography, right?

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So all of these things are available

today because so many of these things

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have moved from offset printing, which is

where you have to ink it and, you know,

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plate it and, and do all the setup costs.

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And you really, if you do

less than a thousand pieces.

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You're wasting money, right?

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And so in today's world, because of

digital technology, you can do one.

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And really there's some setup

cost, but it's, it's really viable

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to say, Hey, listen, these are

the 25 people we wanna reach.

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And we're gonna come up with a tailored,

you know, yes, maybe the media is

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the same, but there's gonna be a ton

of different elements of variable

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elements in that, that's provided

because of digital technology today.

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So those are some things that I think

are driving the, the ability to use

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QR codes, because then you can send

them to an online experience and,

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and further that and, you know, get,

get some additional data from them.

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Right.

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And the other thing that people are doing

that seems to be working is if you've

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got, you know, abandons for example, if

I, if I go to that page and then I don't

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end up actually filling it out, I can get

notified and, you know, we know that they

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went to that based on their IP address,

we can actually send them a different

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mailing saying, Hey Laura, we, you know,

thanks for, you know, your interest.

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Laura: Checking us out.

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Yeah.

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Michael: yes, we thought we'd

give you this little push to get

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over the edge 'cause it might be

an important, you know, thing.

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And so what if we did this?

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And so you can make an offer

that's unique to that person.

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Right?

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And so those are some, those are

some interesting things that,

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that, you know, mail in particular.

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But that print allows in today's world

that frankly, not enough marketers are,

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are taking advantage of from what I,

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Laura: I, yeah, there's, I know, yep.

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See, we, we focus so much on like

digital paid media, but this is another

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solution that is really relevant.

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Michael: It goes, I think, Laura,

to your point, they go well together

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because how you and I have talked

about it before, how tailored your

339

digital messaging can be, right?

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So I know that you are in this

address, and I'm gonna send

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these messages to including.

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For television.

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Right.

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Laura: Yes.

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Yes.

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Michael: send that.

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Yeah.

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I mean, it's, it's, it's amazing

what you can do with that.

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Now, if you think about the fact

that, you know, everybody's like,

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well, I never look at my mail, but

that's actually not really true.

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And,

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Laura: Now we know it

'cause we can see these QR

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Michael: yep.

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And the amount of, of response rate

on mailing since COVID has actually

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gone up in part because there

are fewer things in your mailbox.

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And in part because if you send

somebody something that actually

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is somewhat interesting, right?

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You can't just send them crap.

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But if you send 'em something, they're

at least gonna look at it before

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they put it in the pile to recycle,

which is better than a lot of emails

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are gonna get in today's world.

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Right?

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And so, you know, you, you

get the opportunity to, you

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know, maybe even be kept.

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So somebody like my wife

will leave things for me.

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From the mail that she

thinks I might wanna look at.

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And sometimes they're

actually marketing pieces.

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Laura: Yeah,

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Michael: So there's, there's

interesting value there.

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So you get that and it goes

to what I'm seeing online.

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When I'm online and it's, and

what I'm seeing in television.

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You know, all of a sudden I'm

getting hit with five or six

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different, what media in some ways

it, it really starts to feel like.

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I don't remember where I saw that,

but I, you know, I'm telling somebody,

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oh gosh, I saw this and I don't

remember whether I saw it on tv.

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I don't remember whether I saw it

in, you know, a, a printed piece.

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I don't remember if I saw it online,

but I know that this is what it is.

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And so part of it is, yes, every

marketer wants to be able to say,

379

I got this person to come and

respond because of this paid media.

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Right.

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Whether it was print or whether it

was, you know, an ad on television.

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But, but what they really want them

to do is you really want to, instead

383

of measuring just response, what

you really want is like, I spent so

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many dollars on my marketing and I

need to get this many dollars back

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in terms of new business

or, or growth of business.

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And paying attention to that metric

is a really, really important

387

thing that sometimes we lose sight

of when we're talking to clients.

388

And sometimes marketing directors

really lose sight of that.

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Lisa: We so often are talking about that

last touch attribution point that Google

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Analytics loves to focus on, but it's not,

that's not really the most important one.

391

It's just the one that

Google gets to assign itself.

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Michael: Well, it's, it's kind of, it's

kind of funny because again, coming out

393

of the newspaper world and things have

changed so much through the years, but

394

for a long time, I mean, daily newspapers.

395

Made a big chunk of their money

from all of the auto dealers.

396

I mean, so a guy that I went

to college with who he runs

397

Dwayne Lane dealerships now.

398

His, his dad was Dwayne and, and Tom

is really active in the industry.

399

I remember having lunch with him a couple

years ago and he was saying, he goes.

400

Oh my gosh.

401

I wish I could not do, you know, the,

the print ads and stuff like that.

402

But he goes, because I know that what's

driving somebody's decision making

403

is the advertising that we're doing

on television at the brand level.

404

It's the magazine ads that they

see that are like forming their

405

opinion about like, this is the

kind of car I wanna pay attention

406

Laura: Seeing it in a

show or a video game or

407

Michael: And, and yet, and he is

like, but they walk in and they're

408

like, this is the car that I

want, and they have the, the ad.

409

And so it's direct

response because of that.

410

And that's true, but the reality is the

only reason that they paid attention

411

to that one particular offer that

got them to, yes, it got them to get

412

onto the lot, but they were forming

an opinion and, and working out what

413

they wanted to do long before then.

414

And only one media is

getting credit for that.

415

Lisa: Exactly.

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Michael: So that's the,

that's the Google challenge.

417

I think that you know,

historically has been the case.

418

And, and I'm super excited about

tomorrow night, Laura, because

419

I think that that's changing,

420

right?

421

I

422

mean, and I, I don't know how

it's changing, but by golly, you

423

know, most of my search today

is like, I just go to chat GPT,

424

Laura: Yeah, I think that

is what it's going to

425

be.

426

Michael: and, and

427

Laura: we are definitely going there.

428

Well, Gemini's doing a good job on Google

as well, which is their ai but it is

429

going that direction a hundred percent.

430

It doesn't matter if

it's Google or chat, you.

431

Michael: and as searchers, I think that

that's actually a liability, right?

432

Which is when you have just a few, all

that data gets congealed and so you,

433

you know, you're not gonna have as many

people putting as many things out there.

434

There's not as many options for

people when they're researching

435

and it really all comes back.

436

And I use Gemini a lot too.

437

I'll be honest, it's

some somewhat laziness.

438

It's like, Hey, I just wanted an answer.

439

Laura: Yeah.

440

Yeah, I mean I definitely, what I

love about and Gemma, it just gotten

441

better 'cause, but I'm a chat GPT,

like GPT person, like that is where

442

I go because I like the video.

443

I like to be able to, and I know

you can do this with Gemini now too,

444

but just the voice to text and just

saying, and just the, the scenarios.

445

Now I'm thinking about doing

this and blah, blah, and I

446

don't get a bunch of shopping.

447

I get a bunch of.

448

You wanna take these steps and

you wanna think about it this

449

way and, okay, can you offer some

products that would fit my specs?

450

And yes, they give me a list

of, it's like, oh my gosh, this

451

is so much more time saving.

452

I mean, it solves all of our problems,

453

Michael: Yeah, I mean, to me it feels

a little bit like what, you know, DVRs

454

did to television advertising, right?

455

I mean, my wife cannot stand having to,

if she has to sit through a program where

456

we, you know, have to watch Commercials.

457

she's like,

458

oh, this is, you know, driving me nuts.

459

I'm like, hun, you know,

somebody's gotta pay for it.

460

But, so that,

461

again, I the, I, I sort of throw in

as a reminder on that, which is, it's

462

like, and then there's still print.

463

and, and print is humongous.

464

, I've wanted for a long time to do this.

465

Video series that I would post to

my LinkedIn about, like, you know,

466

talking to a friend about like,

oh gosh, ISN isn't print dead.

467

No print's not dead.

468

And you know, like you just walk down

the street and you're like, print,

469

print, print, print, print, print, print.

470

You know, oh, I'm in the grocery

store, print, print, print.

471

It's like everything is still,

I mean, it is still vibrant.

472

It's just not, people don't do

473

this.

474

Laura: way, it's just not the only way.

475

It's what now?

476

Everything's just fragmented and

we have just a ton more ways of

477

getting that information out.

478

But that doesn't change the fact that

you're still, it's still important to

479

see that, you know, in not on the screen.

480

Michael: Right.

481

and there's a lot of statistics and a

lot of research done about, you know,

482

the, the value of of kinesthetic.

483

Laura: Yeah.

484

Michael: if you actually are touching

something, your recall over the long

485

term is much longer than if you're

just hearing it on, on audio or you're,

486

you're just seeing it online or in print.

487

So,

488

Laura: Yep.

489

I love this.

490

No, you gave us a lot of tidbits.

491

there's a lot of things I didn't know,

a lot of morsels I didn't know, so

492

Michael: well, the only thing

I would throw in there is

493

going back to like, you know.

494

Everything comes down to data.

495

Right?

496

And so the conversations that, that

you're having with your clients that I

497

should be having with my clients are,

you know, okay, where is your data?

498

Right?

499

I mean, I even

500

had, I had, you know, breakfast with

a mutual friend of ours who's at

501

the, the port of Seattle, and she's

struggling with trying to, you know.

502

there's all these different

data silos, right?

503

So it's like, what are

you doing with that data?

504

How, how relational is that data?

505

And I, would say that, I would

encourage marketers to spend more

506

time planning based on what data

they are seeing and making sure that

507

they have the data that gives them.

508

The idea of saying, this is what

we should be doing, or we should be

509

messaging A, B, and C, because look at

how many of our clients you know, they

510

used to buy this all the time and they

haven't bought it in over two years.

511

I mean, just something as simple as that.

512

Right?

513

That's.

514

I, I mean, it's amazing how many companies

see their customers walk out the back door

515

and there's no alarm bells that go off,

and they don't have it in their CRM system

516

that like you're sending me a trigger

saying this person hasn't ordered in six

517

months and they used to order every month.

518

I mean, whatever it is.

519

So those are all things that you can.

520

You know, apply to your,

your media campaign planning.

521

You can apply to your, your print campaign

planning and being able to identify what

522

are those variable items with your data so

that you're, when you're actually doing a,

523

a mailing campaign, for example, let you

know, have a conversation about what you

524

should be doing in your, your creative.

525

To get to where you need to be with that,

because there's something called the 40

526

40 20 rule, which is 40% of your response

and direct mail is gonna be the result

527

of the list that you're sending to.

528

And I would sort of integrate into

that also, not just the list of is

529

it accurate, you know, is it clear?

530

Is it somebody that

might wanna buy from you?

531

But also if it's, if it's an

existing customer list, like

532

what's the data that you're using?

533

In your variable, you know,

messaging to that person, right?

534

So that, that would be 40, 40% of it is

gonna be the offer or the call to action.

535

And so, you know, being very smart about

what, what do you wanna achieve, right?

536

So don't go into it going, Hey, we

really need to do some mailing and

537

add that to our, our marketing mix.

538

No, that's not a great

way you say your money.

539

Let's figure out what you,

what you wanna be doing.

540

And 20% of it is actually only the

creative, which is crazy, but you know,

541

Laura: in it for that

542

person,

543

Michael: right,

544

that's right.

545

and, but you know, being able to then.

546

Use that 20% properly because

poor creative is not gonna

547

get you where you need to go.

548

And you can have the best data

and you can have a great offer.

549

And if somebody is not interested

in the packaging that you

550

send it in, you're done.

551

So, you know, just understanding

all of those as as marketers

552

is really kind of key, I think.

553

Laura: I did not know that, those

percentages, but it obviously makes

554

perfect sense I agree I mean, I

think about that and like what

555

are they collecting from their

current customers and you know, that

556

they can learn from versus just.

557

The basic, Hey, I have to call you back

to set an appointment, or whatever we're

558

Michael: Yeah, and I, I'm

a white paper junkie, you

559

know, it's just like people, people

hate those people, but I've got

560

like this huge data file of things

that I'll read, like when I'm on the

561

bus, if I'm taking the bus or if I'm

562

doing something on a

Saturday morning, but.

563

You know, it's amazing how much attention

gets paid to new customer acquisition,

564

but really what, what customers should be

spending, and this goes to my job right

565

now at 12 Points, which is we have this

566

strong between all of the companies.

567

Somebody that knows us, they didn't,

in almost any kid case, they didn't

568

fire us 'cause we made a mistake.

569

They just either.

570

They went somewhere else,

they stopped doing it.

571

You, you know, I mean,

it's inertia, right?

572

And so you get back to them and they're

like, oh yeah, I remember you guys.

573

I mean, that, that warmth

right there is big.

574

But if, going back to what I was saying,

like some sort of trigger, it's like.

575

Hey, gosh, Laura, you used to order

all the time and we've noticed

576

that you haven't been ordering

over the last eight months.

577

You know, we'd love to find out what

we could do to get you to order again,

578

that personal touch, whether it's by

a phone call or whether it's an email

579

or whether it's, you know, in your

case, even a television ad, right?

580

I mean, but whatever it is,

and it's personalized to me,

581

I'm gonna pay attention to it.

582

'cause I actually know that

they knew that I didn't order.

583

Laura: Right,

584

Michael: I mean, and, and, and

there's something, interesting about

585

feeling like somebody actually cared.

586

And so that, that's the piece that

I think is really important like,

587

I'm paying attention to it for us

in the marketing aspect of my job.

588

But I think that that's a piece that a

lot of organizations, even big companies

589

fail to remember is it's like you're

so attuned to lead generation, which is

590

really important, but look at how many.

591

Things are flowing out the back

that you're, you're just losing.

592

Laura: mining your own data.

593

Michael: Yeah, that's right.

594

Your data is the best, information

about what you should be doing.

595

I think.

596

Laura: Yeah.

597

Agree.

598

Agree.

599

Well, thank you so much Michael

Flynn for joining us today.

600

I think Lisa, you have one

more question for Michael.

601

Lisa: Before we let you go, if you

could go back in time and tell yourself

602

at the beginning of your career one

piece of advice, what would it be?

603

Michael: Hmm.

604

I think I've got a lot of advice for

my young self and and my poor sons kind

605

of hear it from me sometimes now, but

606

Laura: Yeah, learn from My Mistakes kids.

607

Michael: I mean, I think the biggest

thing is I, I pursued what was

608

interesting to me and I don't, regret it.

609

I've gotten to do some pretty cool

things and I, like I said, almost all

610

of my jobs really were sort of the same.

611

They just kind of took

on a different form.

612

But I would say, and one of the things

that I've shared with, with my sons

613

is you should manage your career.

614

Figure out what you really wanna do and

figure out what really kind of lights

615

your fire and, and be intentional about

the jobs that you do take and don't take.

616

Right?

617

So, I sort of always took a job

'cause it was usually like, oh,

618

somebody wants me and it's more

money, a little bit more money.

619

And yeah, this would be cool.

620

And, you know, sometimes it was the right

thing and sometimes I should have been

621

more intentional about what I was doing.

622

That would be my, my one advice,

623

you know, for myself, which was, maybe

pay really careful attention to how you

624

roadmap what your career looks like.

625

'cause by the time that you, get

to be over 50 you're sometimes in a

626

place where you're like, oh my gosh.

627

maybe I really wanted to be an architect,

but it's too late to be an architect now.

628

Laura: No, totally.

629

I, I ended up, you know, working

at an agency for media buying.

630

For 20 years.

631

Next thing you know, you take

this one job and then 20 years

632

later you're doing paid media.

633

But I went to school for copywriting

and that's in my heart too, right?

634

Like, and I still naturally think that

way I'm not gonna like make a huge change

635

and be this, you know, I just do it for

the clients that are doing media buys.

636

But it's like, it's just interesting

'cause it was just a job at the

637

time, you know, in my career field.

638

Michael: Yeah.

639

Yeah.

640

Laura: I just gotta get a job in my field.

641

And so I start, you know, did that

and then, you know, a thousand

642

years later, that's what I'm doing.

643

Like there's no choice.

644

That's what you're doing.

645

Michael: By the way, Lisa, it's not

that I don't give advice to my daughter,

646

but , she knew early on that she wanted

to be in nursing, and so she's done

647

great she's gone back to school at Johns

Hopkins to become a nurse practitioner.

648

But, but that's a great example of

managing, like, she knows exactly

649

what she wants to do, and she's now

paying attention to the, the world of

650

healthcare around her and not just.

651

You know, the specifics of it.

652

It's like, you know, yeah.

653

You gotta know the big picture and

not just the, the small details.

654

So

655

Laura: I get that.

656

I think of that as a singer too, like.

657

Don't take on, just don't

just sing any, like songs can

658

sing you if you're not good.

659

So a job can work you if

you're not, you know, you need

660

to be selective of your job.

661

you know, otherwise you're reacting to it

and going, oh, I'll n yeah, least Lisa.

662

And I do karaoke enough to know

I shouldn't have done that song.

663

Lisa: Bail, bail.

664

Laura: That song is, is singing me.

665

I'm not singing it.

666

Michael: My re is pretty bad in

karaoke, so the next time we go there's

667

about six songs that I'll, I'll sing.

668

Laura: Oh, okay.

669

What?

670

Well, okay, my question.

671

What's your go-to?

672

Michael: Well, it fits my

voice, so, like Friends in Low

673

Places is kind of my my go-to.

674

Laura: such a good song.

675

It's like one of my all

time favorite country songs.

676

Thank you.

677

Now that'll be in my head for the

rest of the day, which is okay.

678

Michael: It is.

679

All right.

680

It's all right.

681

Well, this is a lot of fun, Laura.

682

Thanks.

683

I appreciate it.

684

and Lisa, nice to get to, to see you

685

Lisa: yeah.

686

Thank you.

687

Laura: Thanks,

688

Michael.

689

And you can find Michael

on LinkedIn Michael.

690

How, where can I find you?

691

Michael: you can find me on LinkedIn.

692

I, I, that's really the the one social

media that I am I'm active on, so.

693

Laura: Okay.

694

so you can find Michael on LinkedIn.

695

We'll leave his link in the description.

696

Michael: All right, thanks.

697

Have a great one.