In this episode of Kids Media Club Podcast, Andy, Jo, and Emily chat with special guest, Estelle Lloyd, the co-Founder & COO of Da Vinci Kids & Azoomee. They discuss the challenges of curating a content service for kids, keeping up with changing trends in children's media and tech, and why 'broccoli in chocolate' is the perfect analogy for balancing entertainment and education.

00;00;08;25 - 00;00;15;04

Speaker 1

Welcome to the latest episode of the Keeps Me The Club podcast. I'm Andy Williams and my co-host is Joe Redfern.

00;00;15;27 - 00;00;35;00

Speaker 2

Hello and welcome along. And this week we invited back Emily Haugen, media and entertainment analyst, to talk about the power of kids animated movies, their power to streamers, their power to cinemas, and how often they can still pull the numbers long after TV shows have tailed off.

00;00;35;28 - 00;00;47;16

Speaker 1

Yeah, it was a really fun discussion. Let's go to it now. So hello, Emily. Thanks for joining us on the podcast today. Could you give us a quick introduction to what you do?

00;00;48;13 - 00;00;56;16

Speaker 3

Hi. Yeah. Hi, Andy. Hi, Joe. My name is Emily Horrigan. I am an independent media consultant with the Specialty and Kids and streaming.

00;00;58;06 - 00;01;19;09

Speaker 1

Fantastic. And one of the things that we were going to focus on today as a topic is animated movies and particularly in kind of what how animated movies are kind of working post-pandemic and kind of what sort of trends there are around that. You kind of picked up on. Do you have any thoughts on that to kind of get us started.

00;01;20;25 - 00;01;48;15

Speaker 3

00;01;48;16 - 00;02;13;10

Speaker 3

And all plans were then promptly derailed or derailed by the pandemic hitting soon after in that march and that constricted the flow of content to cinemas. So all these big theatrical movies suddenly didn't have anywhere to go. People were needing to be creative about how they were distributing them. And, you know, I think I think for all of us in the pandemic, there is that quite little moment.

00;02;13;10 - 00;02;37;08

Speaker 3

And it's going to go away. Right. And then it's like, no, it's not going to need to plan for this to be a reality for a little while. I think everybody can identify with that on multiple levels and but it's essentially that to two years of like a very, very pure and landscape for the performance of movies and all content on streaming because it's like cinema has been cut.

00;02;37;09 - 00;03;18;24

Speaker 3

It's, you know, it's kind of come back and gone and come back again. Only now we're kind of resetting in the new normal of post-pandemic kind of and post-pandemic landscape. Cinemas are open at scale and we're starting to see movies and maybe performance recover to what it would have been pre-pandemic. So we've had this two year period to two and a half year period of like this really pure streaming landscape where we've been able to look at some of the performance of movies, things like Pixar films, going straight to Disney Plus and and various creative approaches with Pvod Windows like there's there's loads different ways people have tried to do things in the last few

00;03;18;24 - 00;03;41;05

Speaker 3

years, but now we're kind of resetting to the new normal. The big question tends to be is straight to streaming enough. And that's not just the kids. This is just really a question that's a broader question for the entertainment industry at large. But as happens quite a lot because the kids the kid section is at the forefront of that question where we actually we're at the forefront the family movie.

00;03;41;05 - 00;04;18;20

Speaker 3

Family movies were at the forefront of this at the start of the pandemic. Trolls World Tour is arguably the first film that really tried something very creative and that upset a lot of people. At the time. It was like outrage and all the rest. And obviously then the two years that followed, people had to be normalized to what they had to what trolls world tour had dragged ground on and are now at the forefront of the kind of recycle we have and sing to that came from illumination that hit in Thanksgiving kind of Christmas window of last year so not quite recovered but it definitely represented a stepping stone on the journey to the two

00;04;18;20 - 00;04;45;03

Speaker 3

cinemas recovery. And you've got Netflix going with the CD straight to streaming as always is there there, there. Their strategy and what they cling to and I'm then also in the mix you have light year with Disney plus light years. The next Pixar film, Disney Plus took a very strict attitude with those Pixar films through the pandemic. They all went straight to streaming, like your company had a bit of a disappointing cinema release.

00;04;45;19 - 00;05;05;28

Speaker 3

Definitely not very well-received. And I know that will go, go to Disney plus cautious in a few weeks. It will be in a few days. I need to check the date but I'm yeah. So it's a it's a party and it's a party that I'm very excited about and if you're into certain pieces of the entertainment industry, this is this is highly fascinating.

00;05;05;28 - 00;05;18;25

Speaker 3

But also I think, like I said, kids and family content at the forefront of kind of the renormalization of the industry and indicative to what could be expected in other genres. Obviously not a dead cert, but certainly indicators and worth looking at.

00;05;19;15 - 00;05;37;29

Speaker 2

And can I ask Emily, you just said then the renormalization of the industry, it strikes me that actually all of the pieces were thrown up in the air during the pandemic, and we've yet to figure out whether they've come back down in the same places or they've been reoriented and they kind of slap together in a slightly different way to how they work previously.

00;05;38;14 - 00;05;59;24

Speaker 2

Have you noticed any trends emerging from that in terms of what used to be the rather established roots of kind of cinema first, and there was a window then you might have moved to photo, then pivot slotted in in the middle. Is there anything that you've seen it as a general trend or are they still all trying something different to see who emerges as having found the optimum way to do it?

00;05;59;24 - 00;06;23;12

Speaker 3

I honestly, Joe, I think it's too early to to decide that at this stage. And I'd give it a year or two and before the like, we were able to kind of definitively identify trends and see the impact of the things that were thrown up in the air. And they were thrown very high. And one of them was the the cinema, the cinema, cinema two two year distribution window.

00;06;23;19 - 00;06;49;12

Speaker 3

And obviously that's been a sensitive topic in the entertainment industry for many, many years. And although strides have been made to shorten that window, content makers, content IP owners, distributors like the Walt Disney Company have been striving to shorten that window for ages. There was a big to do about Alice in Wonderland many, many years ago and many, many publications decades ago.

00;06;49;12 - 00;07;15;28

Speaker 3

Not that far, but I thought that was a big moment where pressure was put and, you know, and distance was gained in the kind of trying to make that window shorter. And obviously, the pandemic has demonstrated tons of different things. I know that cinema window is a lot shorter and cinemas have. I just have to kind of accept that after, you know, the post-pandemic kind of world.

00;07;17;00 - 00;07;49;07

Speaker 3

Amazing. That also coincides with the streaming, the emergence of, you know, the streaming world as a as a full kind of landscape. So and yeah, I think it's a little bit too early to tell, but I think tracking what that impact is going to be over the next few years is going to be really interesting. And, you know, whether people feel I think I think the broader the predominant assumption is that, you know, that's a shorter window isn't really going to hurt films of cinema, but you might see a bit of creativity there as well, where you've got like a mega-hit, you know, something like maybe a minions or something where you're like, Actually, no,

00;07;49;07 - 00;08;08;17

Speaker 3

let's not do the 45 day window. Let's actually give it a bit more, more gas, particularly when maybe it's a summer blockbuster and you know, you're going to have a captive period of people going to the cinema. And yeah, so I think there's, I think there's still lots of creativity to be seen and a bit more time before we're going to be seeing any trends that's interested.

00;08;08;17 - 00;08;30;29

Speaker 1

I mean, just looking at it personally, I, I kind of realized that in the middle of the pandemic, when you had trolls come out and then I was I was totally persuaded that actually theatrical windows are over. We're going to have digital releases. That's yesterday. And as and as it's progress and I think I was I don't think I was an outlier there.

00;08;30;29 - 00;08;58;26

Speaker 1

I think that was kind of became conventional wisdom, really, in in a big way as things have kind of moved on and you've seen or has opened up, you had a kind of couple of false starts where people thought, yeah, maybe this is going to make a real difference. But there there were a couple of things that made me reevaluate actually the value of theatrical windows as kind of marketing devices as well.

00;08;58;26 - 00;09;23;05

Speaker 1

It's quite hard for something that is just on stream and it seems to me to replicate that sense of occasion and and kind of anticipation that your cinema release is of the even though I don't think you can say you'll be able to kind of correct me on this, but I mean, cancer did enormous numbers in cinema. Yeah, but, but I think it did.

00;09;23;23 - 00;09;42;14

Speaker 1

And I think the contrast there between the Pixar films that weren't going on the big screen in might in cans, I feel. I mean, there are a lot of other reasons that maybe Katla was an enormous success, but it just might encounter feel special in a way that the Pixar movies started to feel like made for TV movies.

00;09;42;25 - 00;09;43;20

Speaker 1

You think that's fair?

00;09;44;10 - 00;10;20;23

Speaker 3

Yeah, it's like that. I would completely subscribe to the view that a cinema release is a marketing tool, least of all because there's actually spent on it in of itself, you know? And, and it's like, you know, that revenue generation point is still very real, you know, like the moon. It's this is not just, you know, this is, you know, this is a real revenue generator, even if it's not a massive scatter for many, many weeks, that there's still a real a real value point for any studio and and justifies because of that justifies spending the marketing money and rolling out the big activations again.

00;10;20;23 - 00;10;47;08

Speaker 3

So to talk about minions like the funny thing I notice is that they obviously had a load of activations that were locked before they ended up moving the movie. I was in at Domino's last summer and on my way back from at My Bellboy and we got Minions Cards then because obviously that they're locked down but you wouldn't get it's not so often that you get that kind of large scale global commitment from a brand like McDonald's or something that's, you know, that's not a cinema release.

00;10;47;27 - 00;11;21;20

Speaker 3

So I totally subscribe to the idea that a similar release makes it feel bigger, makes the film more exciting, generates more awareness, and we are well, is that too early to say for trends? But like kind of we're kind of round one into the tournament of like who will win and you know we're seeing the streaming mongers racing to our excellent in the US and and there's no you know like there's no real cannibalization there and you know, we know because obviously watching like too much marketing to what's going to look like a movie that you will because it's got the music in it.

00;11;22;03 - 00;11;51;28

Speaker 3

And so yeah, no, I completely agree. I think it's interesting when they come to that again, I thought it's juiced up that end of the year with the same the same cinema release kind of time I think too, although Disney did more of a day and date kind of, or it was quite a short window and but I believe they went back because of success of Encanto on streaming and screen and streaming, and they've gone back and opened up some cinema windows where they weren't necessarily planning to because, you know, it's such a phenomenon.

00;11;52;11 - 00;11;53;03

Speaker 1

Interesting.

00;11;53;17 - 00;12;15;28

Speaker 2

And I wonder if kids and kids content is leading the charge here just because of the nature of taking kids to the cinema as well. You know, it's it's a emotional experience for adults who can sit at home and watch a movie and not move and get distracted. But actually, you take kids to the cinema, the kind of locked in, you know, they might still get a part of their seat.

00;12;15;28 - 00;12;37;10

Speaker 2

But actually, if you pay $20, $30 for a movie at home and halfway through, they decide to go and play with the toy in the corner or go to the veterans. It's kind of, you know, I think just thinking from a parental point of view, I always like to taking my kids to the cinema to watch a movie because actually we were all there together and they went they were stuck.

00;12;37;29 - 00;12;38;29

Speaker 3

In the movie.

00;12;40;10 - 00;12;52;07

Speaker 2

So, you know, I think that there is an element of that actually that gives the kids movie another dynamic in terms of cinema. Is it, you know, the importance to families?

00;12;52;14 - 00;13;11;29

Speaker 3

Yeah. And like, like exactly. Specifically the kids movies because you've got these franchises and you are a bit more stuck in the plans that you're making because, you know, there's toys like being molded in China that are coming or, you know, that are coming to the point that film and you can't stop that. And the idea of like you just you just can't stop that machine.

00;13;11;29 - 00;13;27;19

Speaker 3

It's going so well. Maybe be able to can you maybe conceive with the pandemic? We did see something really hard, but it's really painful. You know, you're very, very committed to that moment because you've got tons of other stuff happening at the same time, unlike other films.

00;13;28;02 - 00;13;58;04

Speaker 1

Yeah, I can see that. I was wondering whether we could kind of explore that kind of in the streaming, only in the theatrical. So in the kind of in one corner where let's say we've got CBS. Yeah. And in the other corner we got saying and I guess the argument against theatrical would be, well, the kind of theatrical kind of cannibalizes your overall pot of money that you've made and you might as well make that on streaming because you don't have any of the overheads for the cinemas.

00;13;59;13 - 00;14;04;15

Speaker 1

Is that how do the numbers stack up on that? Who wins CVS store seem to.

00;14;04;15 - 00;14;24;20

Speaker 3

00;14;24;27 - 00;15;04;14

Speaker 3

I was surprised on The Little Mermaid and in the pandemic they took a load of Sony movies that were, I think, mainly due to go to cinema and released in straight through to streaming. Obviously, you know, that was just the decision Sony made. The ground will just take your money. Now, you know, our pipeline can't take, you know, moving the ease and and at the same time so Disney was releasing Pixar films and what we could see in the US Nielsen numbers, which is where the main place where we have comparative data across the streamers is that like Disney Pixar movies were delivering out of this world and the Netflix movies were, you know, much

00;15;04;14 - 00;15;24;23

Speaker 3

lower and and you kind of say, okay, right. Well, Disney feels less penetrated than Netflix, around half. And particularly over the period of the last two years, they're only getting to 60% of what Netflix are, I think, the other day. So I need to just check in on that for the US. But okay, well, Netflix or maybe are they underperforming?

00;15;24;23 - 00;15;55;10

Speaker 3

But having said that, it's Disney, right? So you kind of have to go, you know, it's Disney, right? So just they're doing well. No music, nobody's prize. Fine. I'm sure Netflix, you know, you're doing your thing. The thing I thought I thought I thought was then and Amazon Prime came into the mix and they took Hotel Transylvania four and that the premiere week of that at least came in a good head and shoulders above anything Netflix had done, which was like, oh, maybe that maybe the maybe the benchmark benefits.

00;15;55;10 - 00;16;18;00

Speaker 3

It's been like, oh, well, we'll give you a pass that you're not Disney because you're not Disney and that's fine. But now suddenly somebody else is coming in and you're like, Oh, these original movies are not like, you know, trance transfer hotel hotels. Before it was straight streaming and activation and as far as I can remember. And so it was a bit like is the benchmark actually maybe the benchmark to get higher than what you guys are doing.

00;16;18;00 - 00;16;38;21

Speaker 3

Netflix announcing for years I think two has come in and and it's paid one way to following it theatrically following its theatrical release and it is significantly higher than any Netflix original in its first week we don't have the first week is only with owning in this or last week so we're going to wait and see what else delivers.

00;16;38;21 - 00;16;58;00

Speaker 3

But it's the trend. What the consumption trend we generally see is we want it's lower because it's opening weekend only. These films tend to premiere on a Friday week two is higher because it's the first week of full consumption. And then there again it's it'll be it will totally upset the apple cart it seems to doesn't continue to deliver at least on the level.

00;16;58;00 - 00;17;23;01

Speaker 3

But if that if not higher. And so it's kind of looking at this three two streaming model and saying, well, the consumption demand isn't really there isn't is or isn't there at the same way as the theatrical movie is. And like you say, and there's loads of infrastructure and costs and stuff that goes into theatrical movie and you can't like, you know, you can't just release a movie that we need a whole team that knows what they're doing.

00;17;23;01 - 00;17;39;26

Speaker 3

It's a specialty. It's people know distribution, they know marketing. It's all it's all specialized. You can't just say, hey, streaming marketing team, go do this because it's just it's just it's different experience. And so not only all the courses and everything needs to be baked into the whole equation too. Interesting.

00;17;39;26 - 00;17;47;03

Speaker 1

I just want to follow up on that quickly. Should Netflix be releasing their movies to cinema their I?

00;17;47;05 - 00;18;04;12

Speaker 3

I think so. I think they're on a I think they're animated movies that they have a real opportunity. They're like, I'm not every movie is right for it, but I think animated like big animated family movies like one year, maybe two years considering going to cinema with that I think is a good idea.

00;18;04;17 - 00;18;08;10

Speaker 1

I would say, because they've done better. For instance, do you think if they had had cinema release.

00;18;10;01 - 00;18;15;12

Speaker 3

I mean, speculatively of I think I think it would have I think it would help. What do you think? What do you guys think?

00;18;15;12 - 00;18;35;20

Speaker 2

I think it's interesting. I I was going to say something similar to to Andy in terms of the comedic from a cycle, a human psychology point of view in terms of yes, we spoke about that, an event film of going to the cinema. You know, as a family, you all go together, you go in the car, you buy some popcorn, you go, you know, it's an event.

00;18;35;29 - 00;19;10;27

Speaker 2

But similarly, that marketing element, it almost it's it's almost the case that actually the cinema is that is is the real kind of Bright's launch. But actually that that means that there's a longer tail to sustaining it and it almost feels like, you know, Netflix to is all became this this kind of huge you know window into choice for content that led to choice paralysis in a lot of ways and also almost the the disposability of content.

00;19;11;06 - 00;19;31;09

Speaker 2

So actually to try and make something that kind of bright North Star event release on Netflix is almost contrary to what we've all grown to know. And, you know, initially loved about Netflix is that, you know, there's so much stuff that you could watch the first 5 minutes of something. And if you're not feeling that, you just go on to the next thing in the churn.

00;19;31;22 - 00;19;59;22

Speaker 2

So, you know, I do wonder if, again, this there's a there's a human psychology, human behavior point to it in that actually something that starts in the cinema sustains longer just because actually it feels more important and less throwaway. And something that debuts on streaming and particularly on Netflix like saying, you know, maybe that that's why Netflix debuts haven't risen quite as high as some of the platforms that we wouldn't have expected launches to do well on that.

00;19;59;22 - 00;20;06;11

Speaker 2

Actually, they materially have less stuff to start with, so it feels a little bit more special by nature of commercial.

00;20;06;13 - 00;20;33;20

Speaker 3

Here's a hypothetical for you because you've got the great background and franchise. So if it's like if if Netflix releases TV on a theatrically or an equivalent size, you know, animated family movie, but they didn't have the franchise engine engaged in terms of consumer products, you know, those kind of promotional partnerships. Would that work? You know, because yeah, but because I'm going to say nothing.

00;20;33;20 - 00;20;34;07

Speaker 3

What do you say?

00;20;34;19 - 00;20;57;17

Speaker 2

No, no, you're right. Because I do think that, you know, Disney Disney has the flywheel. So, yeah, they have the ecosystem in place that Netflix doesn't. That's the franchise brands. But then cinema is one spoke in a flywheel. So it feels like if Netflix made took advantage of that but even whilst the other spokes are still in development, you know, the consumer products team is still relatively small.

00;20;57;17 - 00;21;19;16

Speaker 2

It's not established yet. Actually, it does. My hunch is that CB TV would have done better with a theatrical release and perhaps sustained longer on Netflix. So we'll see. You know, it could have sustained longer on Netflix because that would have it would have had that more events kind of kick off to sustain it for longer.

00;21;19;16 - 00;21;20;14

Speaker 3

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00;21;20;18 - 00;21;47;17

Speaker 1

I mean, my kind of I have a similar sort of hunch on that really. And I think Netflix has I mean, we love Netflix and Netflix content's a amazing all of it. I do think it has a discoverability challenge and that ultimately is kind of a marketing challenge. And I think that it a having their content be accessible outside of the walled garden of Netflix, whether it's in a cinema or I think that that works.

00;21;47;18 - 00;21;54;27

Speaker 1

That could work for them. I know that they kind of do that with YouTube. I guess the beauty of the cinema is that people are actually paying to see that.

00;21;55;14 - 00;22;16;07

Speaker 3

Yeah, and I really like what you said there, but like kind of disposability, kind of, yeah. A lot of the content, you know, and like that's I think that's an issue too. And the thing is, they're not actually doing that with their idol. They're able to focus kind of like they want to do spin offs, the stranger things they want to do spin offs of the graveyard.

00;22;16;07 - 00;22;36;08

Speaker 3

Even though I do like on it all. And, you know, they don't seem to be thinking about their kids content this way. Obviously, the extreme arts who are kind of doing it for them. But you know, in terms of owning their own pipeline and this, you know, the CBC's like the CBC is relatively new, but over the moon, for example, was No.

00;22;36;08 - 00;22;58;11

Speaker 3

Two or 2 to 2 years ago, and nothing has ever come from that, nor was that film necessarily structured to have that longevity, that franchise longevity, that kind of needs to feed other chronic worlds or other ideas or other other stories within that world. So that's probably a challenging part of the strategy too, I would say.

00;23;00;03 - 00;23;19;15

Speaker 2

And I think, you know, I was just going back to musicals actually, and then come to this. There's a another is this a slight tangent? But with musicals and this is what Disney do so well with something like Encanto in the and cinema and Moana, you know, they know that kids are going to want to learn the songs.

00;23;19;15 - 00;23;38;13

Speaker 2

Well, that means watching it a lot of times. Yeah. So you go into the cinema, you experience it in a much more immersive environment with a better sound system that you've got at home. You hear those songs and then, you know, kids go home and go, We're going to watch Encanto again. You know, Disney, we're going to watch it again because we need to learn the songs.

00;23;39;04 - 00;23;43;20

Speaker 2

So maybe more more musicals from Netflix and put them in cinemas.

00;23;43;20 - 00;24;06;28

Speaker 3

I know that. You know, the one I like, I have a real soft spot for is Vivo, which is. Yeah, that's Lin-Manuel Miranda. Thank you. He was obviously having a well, he one of the busiest people in in Hollywood. Right. But, um, you know, I think that was the basic right the year before and I ended up coming in bit like I think he was really underrated.

00;24;06;28 - 00;24;21;20

Speaker 3

I loved the music in it. I think it's really like it's really touching and it's really like it's really unifying for a family because you grandparent and stuff like it's got an attached to it too. So yeah, but yeah if you go it had a cinema release.

00;24;22;00 - 00;24;38;11

Speaker 1

Oh I totally agree. I mean it also kind of a cinema release gives you an opportunity to kind of shout out all of this aspects of that movie in a way that it's harder to kind of have that big. You know, it's a broadcast to everyone when it's on, when it's just on Netflix.

00;24;38;11 - 00;24;59;02

Speaker 3

Yeah. And Vivo is a good example of like Gabby in Vivo series. It's like, you know what I mean? Like it's all a journey and it's beautiful in the music is amazing. And then you're left with this twosome at the end who are really appealing for kids you know with well obviously that's it's only movie anyway so they have to agree but that's that's that's that's a durability, right?

00;24;59;18 - 00;25;35;23

Speaker 1

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, playing devil's advocate then. So we've kind of made the case for theatrical and I think quite strongly, I guess the example that undermines that case a bit might be Buzz Lightyear and I because because as you said before, Pixar had a string of movies that went straight to Disney. Plus, that's how Tim read. And I think Luca was a straight two, so and so was like it was, you know, it was Pixar's opportunity to kind of to go out there and kind of knock it out, the look out the park.

00;25;35;23 - 00;25;40;24

Speaker 1

And they did really. What do you have any kind of thoughts on why that was?

00;25;41;20 - 00;26;14;11

Speaker 3

I just don't think the film connected. There was you know, I think it's funny in this in this business, you go you either blame the content or you blame the distribution strategy. Very often, the distribution strategy is blamed. Um, and I think that in this instance it was a content issue, you know, but I also, I mean, if you want to like, if you want to, if you like held my, my feet to the fire and you said, do I think it's going to do better on streaming than Luca and turning?

00;26;14;11 - 00;26;28;15

Speaker 3

Right. And so I think it might, you know, like I think I think it will come. I, you know, I'm I go wrong on I can't wait to find out but it's like I think it will end up doing the numbers that we've seen for those of the Pixar films, and I actually think it'll probably end up doing more.

00;26;28;23 - 00;26;44;02

Speaker 3

I might need to do more because people will have heard it with a turkey at the cinema, are happy to go and watch it on Disney plus to see if it is. But you know, and it's it's not it's not a turkey it's not it's still a gorgeous Pixar film. It's not their most compelling or engaging from their audiences point of view.

00;26;45;15 - 00;27;15;05

Speaker 2

Yeah, I think you might have a point. It feels like there's the potential for it to do better on streaming for all of those factors, the curiosity factor, just the halo effect of it in the story universe, you know, people will navigate to it over something that they have have heard of just because it like Lightyear, even if it didn't release to critical acclaim at the cinema, did you think maybe the Pixar did themselves a kind of.

00;27;15;11 - 00;27;26;10

Speaker 2

Oh, well, I suppose what I'm trying to say is, in terms of Pixar movies going straight to streaming, do you think that almost set a tone for Pixar? And people assumed now that Pixar would always follow that because they're part of Disney?

00;27;27;03 - 00;27;49;09

Speaker 3

I, I, for me, I'm not sure. You know, I think, I think the Pixar studios in an interesting place right now, it's been a while since they produced something that was a real commercial, like a real commercial slam dunk hit. You know, the franchises. Like when I think of Pixar, I think of Nemo. I think a Toy Story, I think a Cars Internet was gorgeous.

00;27;49;20 - 00;28;16;21

Speaker 3

Like, don't get me wrong, turning red fell all beautiful. But I think, you know yeah it feels like they're going for the Oscar not necessarily the audience. No. But Walt Disney Animation Studios, it's fixed, you know, and it's churning out like frozen encanto and they feel like they're having a very strong commercial heyday right now. And whereas Pixar feels like they're going for the Oscar, they're going for the Oscar every year.

00;28;16;21 - 00;28;30;20

Speaker 3

But I like I'm always if I ask you like others are great, like I have to believe, but like it needs to connect with people at scale. That's got for me the biggest satisfaction in content creation.

00;28;31;04 - 00;28;58;05

Speaker 1

Yeah. I mean, I have a kind of I totally agree with that. I, I suppose going back to Buzz Lightyear specifically, I think that was a hard movie to market. And I think it confused the audience because I think it was very matter. It was this is the movie based on the toy that Andy had. Yeah. And and that that already kind of was confusing I think.

00;28;58;14 - 00;28;59;11

Speaker 1

And I know like was the.

00;28;59;11 - 00;29;03;19

Speaker 3

Reason matter is literally Pixar is new back then.

00;29;04;15 - 00;29;21;11

Speaker 1

Yeah. I mean all that stuff is, is maybe a little bit too matter but yeah, it felt very clever. I don't think the audience understood, you know, they'd loved this character in the Toy Story series and suddenly it wasn't the character that I fell in love.

00;29;21;11 - 00;29;21;18

Speaker 3

Yeah.

00;29;22;16 - 00;29;25;09

Speaker 1

I think the ego of that character. Yeah.

00;29;25;09 - 00;29;56;12

Speaker 2

And maybe there is something to be said then about this. This, you know, things that well in cinema is content that consumers want and have been asking for and that they necessarily want or had been clamoring for the meta Buzz Lightyear movie. Yeah. You know, so perhaps it was just that perfect storm of Pixar doing their high concept stuff of these as they've done in recent years, but actually falling under the misconception that because it was part of the Toy Story universe, it was going to be a slam dunk cinema.

00;29;56;12 - 00;30;01;05

Speaker 2

And actually it wasn't it wasn't a movie that consumers and moviegoers actually wanted.

00;30;01;15 - 00;30;21;00

Speaker 3

Yeah, maybe they were going to read between a rock and a hard place because, you know, they've had this, you know, they had these all these originals, these lovely originals like Coco. And so that was was great. I wasn't a fan of one was Soul was beautiful but you know, anyway, you know, my my critical rundown of Pixar films.

00;30;21;00 - 00;30;31;20

Speaker 3

But it was like, okay, now we need like a commercial hit. And it's like, okay, how do we bring what we're doing now, which is basically matter and commercial hit? Okay. Well, we can put, you know.

00;30;31;29 - 00;30;32;12

Speaker 1

Yeah.

00;30;32;24 - 00;30;33;11

Speaker 3

It didn't work.

00;30;33;23 - 00;30;46;22

Speaker 1

I think Luca actually would have been the of their recent movies that would have benefited from a cinema release. Right. Because that was kind of joyful and and actually wasn't particularly matter. It was just a fun story.

00;30;46;25 - 00;30;48;07

Speaker 3

Yeah. Yeah, I agree.

00;30;49;18 - 00;31;12;07

Speaker 2

Yeah, completely. So in terms of where where do you think we will net out with kids animated movies, what's what's the future hold in this maelstrom of Netflix and cinema and pvod? And that's large and you know, who's going to come up on the outside and steal some some ground from Netflix? Who would be your bet in that sense?

00;31;12;29 - 00;31;40;01

Speaker 3

I think I think I honestly think we're going to get to the conclusion we all seem to be out anyway about a theatrical. Theatrical window is a good thing. It helps the longevity of the film and helps it. It does not harm streaming. It actually does the opposite. And I think the interesting the piece of the puzzle on this and for Netflix, kids and family more at large is how the DreamWorks and Illumination relationship fits in there.

00;31;40;13 - 00;32;10;11

Speaker 3

And obviously, both of those animation studios are owned by NBCUniversal. So, you know, any decisions around one of them is going to impact the other. And, you know, where NBCUniversal sits with Netflix is, you know, very important strand, I would say of of their kids and family offering and NBC Universal launched peacock in the middle in the midst of the streaming wars and anything I've seen would suggest to you that's not necessarily doing as well.

00;32;10;23 - 00;32;39;17

Speaker 3

And I'm not clear on the plans for international outlets. So maybe they're good, maybe maybe maybe they're, you know, they're comfortable where they are with Netflix. But for me, if you ever decided that they weren't, they'd be in a real pickle. I would say so. And that's a that's a risk. That's a risk factor. And so I think, you know, that's something that that needs to be considered from their point of view.

00;32;39;17 - 00;33;01;18

Speaker 3

And we've seen them try to want to own their own pipeline and they haven't because that's what happened. Maybe they just haven't been motivated to really go for it with these films. And yeah, it takes money to actually it takes to start before it did have any sort of real consumer product or franchise franchise extension. And so yeah, I don't know.

00;33;01;18 - 00;33;21;03

Speaker 3

I don't know. I had a crazy idea about like why wouldn't they just like that and send the relationship back and get NBC New to kind of manage that part of their original films. And yeah, I don't know at this point. We got the reasons why that wouldn't happen. I just was just around and thought, I have a great film, but I've got a great partner who is super experience, who they're already in bed with.

00;33;21;03 - 00;33;42;11

Speaker 3

I don't know. And yeah, so I think that's kind of the main that could be the main rock that Netflix could peraton. And then after that, I think with Disney, we're going to see, you know, theatrical releases are going to, you know, it's just going to be a more is more reality. But we've all known that that was the case anyway, particularly with kids content.

00;33;42;25 - 00;33;54;22

Speaker 1

Yeah, absolutely. And do you what do you think Netflix will kind of learn from? Is there anything to learn from the CBC? Is there anything to kind of take stock of and kind of.

00;33;54;27 - 00;34;19;10

Speaker 3

You have to want to learn first? I don't know. They seem very like even as the I think the latest earnings call, you know, Reed Hastings issued part of the letter was, you know, a statement that was not really part of their thinking. Now, listen, Reed Hastings and Ted Sarandos, given where their share price is that are under immense pressure.

00;34;19;10 - 00;34;44;28

Speaker 3

And I think there is a prevailing consensus among commentators on the industry that they're going to go. And it's a question of of when and not if. And I'm not saying that's my view. And but it is you know, they are under immense pressure. So I think a change at the top of Netflix could, you know, have kind of like having immense disruption on everything that we're talking about today.

00;34;45;08 - 00;34;51;08

Speaker 3

But it's not happening today. But it's not not not necessarily not happening soon.

00;34;51;08 - 00;35;03;19

Speaker 2

And in terms of the outliers like the Amazons and the Apples, what what are you hearing with regards to them? I mean, you know, Apple's released a couple of nice kids TV brands recently.

00;35;03;29 - 00;35;05;23

Speaker 3

Yeah. What do they are they also really something.

00;35;06;13 - 00;35;09;23

Speaker 1

Look like was the big animated movie.

00;35;09;23 - 00;35;30;19

Speaker 3

That look was the first one from Skydance for them. I haven't actually watched that one yet, but I had heard good things on is Skydance Ramsey like an established studio there so potentially ripe for acquisition and although you know the last year factor of skydance has both pros and cons of an Apple point of view, obviously got a squeaky clean image.

00;35;30;19 - 00;35;50;25

Speaker 3

But Oscar would have, I'm sure, you know, legacy relationships there and. Yeah, no. So like let's wait and see. I mean, I applaud Apple. I think Apple's content is really good, but it's not at scale. But it's good, but it doesn't have to be at scale. And after that, it'll be a question of, you know, if they want.

00;35;51;00 - 00;36;24;14

Speaker 3

Yeah. If they feel they want or need to have that, you know, pure franchise success, they're not necessarily want or need it because it's not their business model, their business model of selling things and really focused around this Apple one kind of product, the streaming services marketing. And that's come at the same time again to like Amazon aren't their bread and butter isn't the streaming service that's the difference between them and Netflix and arguably Disney not the Disney Disney's by Twitter is its content not necessarily only the streaming service the content whereas those two other companies don't you know, streaming streaming is marketing.

00;36;24;29 - 00;36;44;20

Speaker 3

So you know, I think I think I think there's yeah I think like watch this space definitely the skydance thing is interesting and so yeah like yeah I think that I think there's potential and maybe if they do it then we'll have more use cases and evidence cases of like yes film already have definitely work interesting.

00;36;45;00 - 00;36;54;04

Speaker 1

Are there any examples of kind of real surprise hits, almost kind of the small studios that managed to get an animated movie out there that stock and people noticed.

00;36;54;26 - 00;37;28;22

Speaker 3

Yeah. Have you seen chicken hair and the hamster darkness and you know, we've seen it we've seen it come through a little bit mainstreaming. It's not like these non mega movies can do quite well, you know, and if they're if the budget is right. So, you know, I think Jungle Beat is another one on Netflix. That was yeah, it had it had a theatrical it had like a like a non large scale capital release, didn't have like a massive marketing campaign or anything, but You know, there was, there was a theatrical release and then they've gone to streaming on.

00;37;28;22 - 00;37;48;00

Speaker 3

They're actually doing pretty well because they're pretty good movies like and I do recommend you watch chicken here in the house regardless. It's really funny. And there's like one thing in it, like these pig pong cubes that hysterical and actually very funny, sizable. And so yeah, I think they're I think I think getting that right, like, you know.

00;37;48;27 - 00;37;52;13

Speaker 1

That you can have a kind of any theatrical presence or was it just. Honestly, it.

00;37;52;13 - 00;38;08;00

Speaker 3

Did. Yeah, it did. Across Asia for sure. And I haven't looked into the overall profile and they kind of had a long article like maybe six months where it was here and then might have been here and here. And then it was there was a bit, a bit messy because it's a smaller movie and they just had to kind of go with what they were giving.

00;38;08;17 - 00;38;31;05

Speaker 3

And but, you know, I think I think kids I think Netflix have shown that live action like good, you know, middling middle budget, live action movies for kids can do very, very well. So I'm thinking like we could be heroes and yes day they haven't had one in a while. They have 13 the musical coming out I think on Friday tomorrow.

00;38;31;17 - 00;38;49;16

Speaker 3

And so they've shown that like just good old fashioned live action movies that don't have to be super high production values. It's just a good story. A bit of a laugh can do very well. And I think if we can crack that very animated movies, that the budget's not too high, but they are funny and they're compelling. There is there is definitely a space for that in streaming.

00;38;50;05 - 00;39;11;18

Speaker 2

I do I do wonder if those those mid-budget live action movies that have a slightly older kid audience, they benefit from the virality element of them because kids then go and talk about them, make, you know, duets about that. Yeah. So actually the the marketing is done for Netflix in a way by their audience.

00;39;11;24 - 00;39;35;11

Speaker 3

And by the talent. Yeah. And it's funny actually, because you can look at the philosophy of Carson right now. If you Carson was in Feel the Beat on Netflix 18 months ago and she's now in Purple Hearts, which I haven't seen. But it's an older skew. It is older skewing, but it's still very accessible. I think, you know, family like it's going to be okay for most of the family, which has been the biggest it was the biggest movie on Netflix last week.

00;39;35;11 - 00;39;45;14

Speaker 3

Yeah. And so yeah, there's the live action thing. Obviously has the talent aspect to it as well. And but I still think there's, there's something to be done animation there if it's right both.

00;39;47;00 - 00;39;57;15

Speaker 1

And we haven't touched upon minions either. I was wondering whether that's kind of worth exploring in terms of kind of what you felt the factors were that kind of would drive in the success of.

00;39;59;12 - 00;40;05;17

Speaker 2

Going back to that virality point, there was the huge, you know, kind of suits, trend development in cinema. Yeah.

00;40;05;26 - 00;40;26;23

Speaker 3

The Tik Tok trend. And I also, you know, there's, there was no things going for minions like there is this government is anyway has appealed to the whole family. You know I think it's like a cinema moment where suddenly everyone was feeling ready to go back and to have a minions and to go back to like, you know, I think that was like very, very compelling part of the success.

00;40;27;01 - 00;40;50;15

Speaker 3

In fact, that like animation now head to market millions and millions is just so marketable. Like all of the Brown partnerships they did was just insane. So exhaustive. Did you send me that ticked up on all the wrong partnerships? So I know that one that was brilliant and yeah, so like, you know, they know, they know, they know they've got the playbook, you know, and it's just like, tick, tick, tick.

00;40;50;15 - 00;41;15;14

Speaker 3

And like they go into people to pitch its minions. It's like, yes, of course we're going to have minions. So that was brilliant. I'm really excited to see and I think we're in that. We're in this moment where it's just all starting to happen. I find that very exciting. And in the case of Minions, little hit, as I understand, it's going to hit, you know, hit Peacock first for four months and then it'll be paid to Netflix before the end of the year.

00;41;15;23 - 00;41;22;17

Speaker 3

I can just imagine that being monstrous. I'm right in time for Christmas like content strategy now.

00;41;25;00 - 00;41;47;21

Speaker 1

To wrap up on that, I had one thing on the Minions which was do you think it shows that we underestimate the kind of older. Yeah. The young adult aspect of these movies. I think, you know, looking at my own kids, they're they're kind of older now, but there is a of nostalgia value for them in watching stuff that they watched when they were a kid.

00;41;48;22 - 00;42;13;15

Speaker 3

Yeah, I think tapping into that audience is so difficult and it's been out of the grasp of content creators, mainstream content creators for a while in lots of ways. And obviously the minions Tik Tok trend was perfect. Why couldn't they do enough for night? You're right. Like it's practically the same thing, you know? And I'm like, yours are going to be kind of a bit more of a grown up movie like so.

00;42;13;24 - 00;42;44;21

Speaker 3

And but tapping into that is, is difficult. And it's, I think it's really exciting to see like mainstream content manage to get that right because most often they don't even try that. It's like all the teams are all, you know, on social, you know, watching whatever like, you know, they don't really try and they're left out in the cold of it, honestly, because that's such a lovely it's such a lovely it's a lovely story that the year that the teens went back to watch, maybe they go, we don't know do they not.

00;42;45;09 - 00;43;12;20

Speaker 2

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's a good point you made about like whether or not they could have tapped into that fondness for Toy Story with like you being such a very different movie. Yeah, but there is like you say, there is a, and a tendency for mainstream content makers to, to, you know, not necessarily not acknowledge the heritage of that, but but forget that actually teenagers have a fondness for what they watched as kids.

00;43;12;20 - 00;43;32;26

Speaker 2

To your point, you know, they don't become hardened teenagers who never want to acknowledge that they loved watching minions when they were five. Actually, they're quite happy to say, Yeah, I love this movie. I grew up with it. We've all, you know, owned a piece of minions much at some point in our lives or, you know, parroted the minions kind of, you know, language that turned into that.

00;43;32;26 - 00;43;34;02

Speaker 2

That can be quite powerful.

00;43;34;04 - 00;43;51;28

Speaker 1

Yeah. Well, I mean, my one on my youngest daughter was explaining her love of Disney movies and she said, you know, I kind of watched Disney movies when I was a kid. And then when I was about ten or 11, I thought I was too old for that. And then I got over myself and I'm just like, Yeah, I love Disney movies.

00;43;51;28 - 00;43;54;26

Speaker 3

Yeah. Whereas like mainstream content makers, like teens.

00;43;55;07 - 00;43;57;25

Speaker 2

They all say, Fuck, yeah, exactly.

00;43;58;08 - 00;43;59;01

Speaker 3

Where do we fit in?

00;43;59;20 - 00;44;02;11

Speaker 1

Yeah, absolutely.

00;44;03;00 - 00;44;07;21

Speaker 2

Well, that feels like a nice from that point on which absolutely.

00;44;08;26 - 00;44;09;17

Speaker 1

Yeah, great job.

00;44;09;27 - 00;44;12;08

Speaker 3

Right. You so much guys who appreciate your.

00;44;15;04 - 00;44;17;11

Speaker 2

So thank you for listening in or watching.

00;44;18;20 - 00;44;29;07

Speaker 1

Yes and please like and subscribe to the series if enjoy the show and we look forward to you joining us again soon.