In a culture driven by performance and achievement, ministry leaders often feel immense pressure to fix declining institutions and busy congregations with more programs. David Zahl, founder of Mockingbird Ministries and author of "The Big Relief," joins hosts Dwight Zscheile and Terri Elton to explore how grace-centered ministry offers an alternative that both relieves pressure and creates more vibrant communities. David shares how his church has experienced unexpected growth by focusing on grace, giving permission for low engagement, and letting ministry initiatives emerge from the congregation rather than clergy.

This conversation unpacks David's concept of "low anthropology"—a realistic view of human limitations that opens the door to greater compassion—and explores how churches can offer genuine relief in a worn-out world. Whether you're facing ministry burnout or seeking to create a community where people feel truly seen and welcomed, this episode provides both theological depth and practical wisdom for shifting from fixing to listening and from performing to receiving grace.

If you see people as completely free agents who just need to be told what to do and then they'll do it, you are going to ultimately not just find them frustrating, you're ultimately going to resent them. And I think that it creates a toxic form of ministry. If you have what I would term a more biblical or a lower anthropology that sees that people are tied in knots, not all of their own making,

But there is a dark side to human nature, but mainly we're limited creatures that can only capable of so much and that includes what we can know as well as what we can do. I think then compassion, at least there's a doorway for it. There's a space for it. And you start to expect a little less of folks, but be pleasantly surprised when they do show up and they do want to get involved and they do want to do even more.

Hello everyone, welcome to the Pivot Podcast, where we explore how the Church can faithfully navigate a changing world. I'm Dwight Zscheile and I'm joined by Terri Elton.

Here at Faith Lead, one of the key pivots that we believe the Church must make is a pivot in posture from fixing to listening, discerning, and experimenting. We live in a culture that is full of self-justification, whether it be through proving one's worth at work or in fitness or beauty or one's righteousness in political attitudes or outrage.

Ministry leaders can find themselves trapped in their own versions of this. So being caught in this pattern is simply exhausting and ultimately fruitless.

Indeed, Terri. And that's why we're so excited to welcome David Zahl to the show. David's work speaks directly to the spiritual crisis in our culture at this moment. He's the founder and director of Mockingbird Ministries, editor in chief of the Mockingbird Blog and co-host of the Mockingcast and Brothers Zahl podcasts. He's the author of Seculosity, How Career, Parenting, Technology, Food, Politics and Romance Became Our New Religion and What to Do About It.

Low Anthropology, The Unlikely Key to a Gracious View of Others and Yourself, and his newest book, which is out on April 29th, The Big Relief, The Urgency of Grace for a Worn-Out World. Dave has written for Christianity Today and the Washington Post. He and his family live in Charlottesville, Virginia, one of my favorite places, where he serves on staff at Christ Episcopal Church. So Dave, welcome to Pivot.

Thank you so much for having me. Thanks for that kind introduction.

So one of the things that I find so wonderful about your work is how you reclaim some very old and classic, and we might say even basic, Reformation theological commitments, but then explore the difference that they make for regular people today. So one of those is the relief that comes with acknowledging our limitations. So tell us about how your understanding of grace has shaped your approach to ministry.

and 2023 is that Life is hard and the world feels like a pressure cooker. I'm at the stage of my life where I'm raising children. They're a little bit older now. They're middle schoolers and elementary age kids, but There's a lot of demand out there. And for most people, at in my cohort, it feels like the demand is getting larger, stronger, harder, et cetera. And so,

If Christianity is a religion of grace, or If we're trying to talk about a God who relates to us in gracious ways, then that is of urgent importance. I basically understand people to be, no matter how they're presenting themselves, that they are existing under a weight of enormous pressure and demand. Does it work on them, whether they...

care to acknowledge it or not. And so grace, or as I'm calling it in this book, relief, that search for that is paramount. And if that's actually on offer, if that's actually available, then I think that the church should, when we talk about a posture, we should hopefully be, you know, not hiding that fact at least. That's a really, really important thing to talk to people about. yeah, there's all sorts of other, excuse me.

There's all sorts of other ways that it informs the work I do. I generally think that folks are living under enough accusation and condemnation that the word that we have to offer folks on church or in our interactions, God willing, can be one of mercy and space and forgiveness and just room to breathe. And that completely reshapes what you think you're doing on Sunday. if that's the case.

It's also a vertical word if you're totally...

I guess snowed under by life in the world in 9 to 5 and Monday through Saturday, then hopefully Sunday or any kind of ministry will be something that connects you with the vertical dimension of life, which would be the transcendent, which would of course be the reality of a living God. Hope that sheds some light.

I often will say, I'm banking on grace. I've kind of lived a life banking on that. I'd love to just have you say just a little bit more about what happens if the people we're doing ministry with kind of catch the spirit, right? Kind of have grace as the first posture for being in ministry or being in community. What difference does that make?

Well, it makes, I think, every kind of difference. If a community of grace is usually one in which people feel refreshed, they feel excited to go, it's not a place where they're going to receive homework or to police one another or to monitor or measure people. Those are what at least the Lutheran may would want to call a community of law. But A community of grace is one in which people can laugh at themselves.

in which we can be honest about what's really happening in our lives. without fear. of certainly of God's judgment and in which we're also free to play. think that there's one of the things in this book that's trying to do is say that the pressure of productivity weighs very heavily on people from the, know, the time they're eight years old and the extracurriculars are choosing up to, of course, people in their careers and even afterwards. so,

The word of grace that says God loves you as you are right this moment in spite of the fact that, you know, in your least lovable moments you are loved by God. we'll put it that way. I believe that that fosters a sort of freedom in which the stakes of everyday life have been softened. Some of the bite has been taken out and we are free to play. It's The...

memoirist Mary Carr, who I love, the Catholic memoirist, she has a book called "The Art of Memoir" in which she talks, the key phrase she wants to ask memoirists and writers is, what would you write if you weren't afraid? What would you write if you weren't afraid? And that's, I think, a key question for Christians. What would you do? What kind of ministry, what kind of service of your neighbor, what kind of radical act of generosity in the world, what would you do if you weren't afraid, if you felt you really had nothing to lose by doing it?

if you weren't afraid of missing out on some future opportunity or risking some kind of negative verdict from your peers. And so a community of grace will be one of humor, God willing, it'll be one of a little bit of freedom, playfulness, and also honesty though, and transparency. And those are the communities that I'm attracted to. I'm assuming there are people in the military who are attracted to other types of communities, but this is not me.

Yeah, I think you really hit that nail on the head. That would be a really different draw for people to participate. Well, that idea of grace really connects well with anthropology. And in low anthropology, you argue for a more realistic view of human nature than maybe modern Western cultures provide. And I think some of us, without even thinking of it, have a pretty high anthropology. So how might embracing

this low anthropology perspective, free church leaders from burnout and perfection and all the other things that come with thinking they have to do it all themselves.

That's a wonderful question. And I hope that the book can at least provide some fresh vocabulary around the ideas we have about human nature, which is all your anthropology is. It's what you mean when you say, I'm only human, or that was a humanizing thing to do. I basically think if you have too high expectations of other people, you will bang your head against the wall when they don't act in the way you think they should act.

And that's a refrain I hear from clergy all the time, anyone involved in ministry. Why don't these people give more? Why don't they show up more? Why don't they read their Bible more? Why don't they come to the, you know, serve at the soup kitchen more? If you see people as completely free agents who just need to be told what to do and then they'll do it, you are going to ultimately not just find them frustrating, you're ultimately going to resent them.

And I think that it creates a toxic form of ministry. If you have what I would term a more biblical or a lower anthropology that sees that people are tied in knots, not all of their own making, but there is a dark side to human nature, but mainly we're limited creatures that can only capable of so much. And That includes what we can know as well as what we can do. I think then compassion, at least there's a doorway for it. There's a space for it.

and you start to expect a little less of folks, but be pleasantly surprised when they do show up and they do want to get involved and they do want to do even more. So, but this applies to clergy themselves. I mean, most of the clergy people I know, we struggle with thinking we're capable of more than we actually are. And we hold ourselves to a standard. We think the grace applies to everyone else but us.

And that is the amount of folks, and I pulled my hand up here too, that feel so condemned by all the things they're not doing or don't feel they're doing well enough. That creates just a spirit of condemnation that I think infects the way that you view ministry. So this is the great irony of a low anthropology. It sounds limiting or insulting, but it actually is the doorway, the key to loving other people.

and finding energy, surprise, and again, play, think, is a big part of this scenario.

Well, I want to explore a dimension of that a little bit further, which is I think sometimes church leaders, ministry leaders have the sense, the expectation that they need to have all the answers. And that also then becomes a whole nother layer of pressure. So how do you think about the posture of inviting people to explore, discover, experiment, discern together as a community, recognizing

that we are all limited and fallen in that sense. And we also trust the Holy Spirit will show up, right? But work that side of it with us a bit as well.

Sure, think When you view your role as clergy as something where you are there to straighten people out or to fix an institution that's breaking, that just that translates into enormous kind of pressure, also, sort of self-condemnation. as well. I think that can be a very, to be,

cards on the table, A lot of clergy I know, especially as institutions decline, they are being asked to do an enormous amount. They're not just doing what they feel like they were called to do, which is to maybe to preach and to celebrate the sacraments. They're also being called to be a fundraiser. They're being called to run schools. They're being called to, you know, manage a vestry and then also to like be a social media manager. I mean, it's a lot that they're asked to do.

And it, on top of that, think the helping professions like the clergy attract people who dispositionally want, they like to help, but the dark side of that is they like to be in control. That's type A or whatever you want to call it. So I think a low anthropology begins from the outset that there is a God and I'm not God. So

we have a high, hopefully adopt a high view of the Holy Spirit, a high pneumatology where we believe that the Holy Spirit is active and alive and that, you know, in one sense, God's got our back, you know, that is exciting. That's not just theoretical. That's, you know, what we believe is that this is ultimately God's ministry. We get to play a role.

And so the sense of ministry becomes much more, I think is one of the actually things I love about the faith and lead institution, organization is that this pivot sort of from trying to fix, but trying to sort of identify where God is already at work and to join that. Andy Root, who I know you guys are intimately connected with, I was just reading his new book and he was, he's talking about the ministry of consolation. It's like following God into sorrow.

which if you can hear that, takes the burden off of us. It's exciting because you get to see where God's at work and you sort of sort of follow God into sorrow with the sort of witness of the gospel or just simply the presence of just a listening ear. But I find it to be what people actually are wanting because Any time you're out to fix folks, improve them, people receive that as a judgment. I don't care who you are, if you're in religious context or not. If someone is...

trying to fix you. I mean, think about how it works in marriage. It's not good. And it is not received as love, certainly. It makes people hide and run away. And so what a wonderful invitation we actually have, which is not to save our institutions or save anyone in our flocks, but to bear witness, to attend, to pray for,

to maybe proclaim the forgiveness of sins. I think, but Really, to get to have a front row seat to what God's doing, and that's exciting stuff.

Yeah, I got thinking as you were talking about, I think some of the gifts of faith, like hope and this unconditional love and even beauty, right, comes out of curiosity and noticing more than doing, right? Like there's a pause that kind of has to happen about this is bigger than me for some of those things.

emerge. And I think what you're inviting us into in this idea is that if we can kind of ratchet down our sense of self and open ourselves up to the spirit and just the things, the mystery even of what's happening around us, we may see what's in front of us differently.

Isn't that beautiful? I love that. If that's what came across from me, then I'm grateful. think A low anthropology though does start from the position of like, I don't know it all. I simply don't know it all. And So what's a fruit of that? One fruit of it would be curiosity. I want to know more from you. Like, I mean, you're a little skeptical of your own self-assured take on the situation. You're interested in how the other person might speak. And you also,

you have, you have a you know, authority that or a passion for the gospel and to that you're not just you coming to this, that God is real and the Holy Spirit is at work, but you're not, they're not dependent on you and you can sort of be curious about how that's even going to work out, which is, I think, completely different posture than one that is asserting an agenda for other people and is

neurotically concerned with a very specific form of what it looks like to do ministry. And that's, that's unfortunately, I don't want to blame people too, too hard for, you know, trying to do ministry the way they were trained or the way they were brought up or what they saw in front of them, because, you know, we're living in different times, but it's, I think there's something exciting about this, the newness of it all.

Well, I think that ties nicely to your work on secularosity, this whole sense of how in that work you explore secular pursuits that have replaced religion. And I think when there's not that mystery, when there's not that sense of the divine, we are going to something. So how might church leaders recognize some of that movement in their own ministry approaches that have

maybe become more performative or kind of set by some metrics that maybe aren't really helpful in this time and certainly aren't God's grace.

Yeah, well, first of all, think clergy need to be aware of the extent to which we are involved in replacement religions as well. Like I have, you know, I'm raising kids in the travel sports industrial complex, you know, like it's replacing church, literally replace, like that's where a lot of people are on Sundays. career, love, all the stuff that's in the list of that book, I think it's, these are

Acute pressures that that people sort of find themselves and walk themselves into and none of us are immune from them The problem is when the church comes to resemble a replacement religion more than the real thing and by that I mean when it becomes a ladder to climb or a treadmill to run on Which it can you know, I think that the language of the world is oftentimes the language of of law or what some people call technique or just it's a language of control do this get that results and

That's what marketing is. And what we're trying to get across when we're talking about the grace of God is that God is real, God loves you, God is present, and there is hope beyond your capacity to manufacture it. Because what secular replacement religions do, no matter how well intentioned they are, because there's a lot of good things at the root of them, they exhaust people, they burn them out because it says, will

be enough when I parent well enough, I will be enough when I eat well enough, I will be enough when I vote well enough. I don't know what it is, but it's, that never ends. And so I think that's, those are some of the spiritual conditions in which people are living. And that's what, that's what I tried to get across in secularity, but a world of secularity is a world in which people are crying out for relief. unfortunately, replacement religions,

They resemble, they borrow a lot of the demand, a lot of the ritual from sort of old time religion, but they don't have any space for the grace or mercy. There's no, I mean, to use the old language, the blood of Jesus isn't there, you know? So in its place is a lot, it's just more stuff to do or a different type of person to be, more followers to Garner. I don't know what it is, but I think we can...

something, partly the secular replacement religions helped me to gain confidence as a Christian to say like, actually, we've got something really unique and beautiful to offer the world. And it's the big relief of the grace of God. But it also creates a huge amount of compassion because none of us really feel like we chose the insane performative ladder climbing world that we live in right now. And if we did,

And we certainly didn't choose this sort of accelerated and constantly accelerating form of it, which seems to be creating anxiety, fatigue, loneliness, and honestly, sort of almost like a despair.

Well, so let's explore that a little bit more with respect to evangelism and how churches can actually connect with neighbors who are living in those kinds of secular stories and finding themselves being increasingly exhausted. And yet often the church makes an ask for people come and get busy inside our activities and our things, right?

So how might church leaders navigate that opportunity?

Well, first of all, with compassion and patience, we don't lead by judging it if we possibly can, because it judges itself. The fallout is acute, I think, and people... But you do describe it. I think that it's a helpful thing. People feel understood, it's very close to feeling loved. And if a church can say, hey, this is what it's actually like to live today, and if you're a person that...

feels like you're on a ladder that keeps getting longer, and you're dealing with sort of non-stop comparative living, you're not alone. Like, this is the water in which we're swimming right now. We are complicit in it. I don't think we're sort of out there. I think the church has its own form. But I also think that we can be confident that the message of God's grace that

that God is revealed in Jesus Christ who is here to sort of veiled, what's it called, veiled in flesh the Godhead see. And what is that Godhead? But a baby who grows up to be a carpenter, itinerant, know, healer and exorcist, but who seems to be specially drawn towards showing mercy towards people who have nothing to offer.

ultimately being the base or the great signposts of God's unconditional love. I think we could be confident about it. I don't think we need to hide it. I don't think it's a secondary thing. I think we can also assume that people are living under a larger burden than we realize. that the, I almost At this point,

if I go to a church and I don't hear some aspect of the good news, some acknowledgement of the struggle of life... but then some, If I go there and I get spiritual homework of any kind, I want to say, you know, maybe 30 years ago, it was important to remind people of all these things they're not doing and that they can do to help the kingdom of God. But right now, can't you see that we're the most suicidal culture the world has ever seen? Like that people need hope.

they need relief, they need forgiveness, then they need grace, but ultimately they need God. And so let's lead with that. Let's make sure it's in everything we do from adult formation to the various forms of outreach we do and the service we provide. What would it look like if we just decided to triple down on grace as our MO? The churches I see where that's happening, I think it can be very, very exciting.

It's hard to raise money for sometimes because it's not like you're not trying to, you're not giving people a return on investment or I don't know, some kind of strategic plan about how you're going to change the world. But it is ultimately a much deeper well to drink from. especially if the clergy person themselves is drinking from it regularly.

So you were talking about raising children. I made it through raising two girls through middle school. Good luck on that. That was a piece where you think about the kind of pressure to have your life together. And if there's ever a time when that's just not possible, it's got to be middle school, right? Like, you know, how many hours in that you run out. And I think about...

The place that my parenting in our home played in that time was you could come and kind of fall apart. And I had to learn how to parent really different because we have three first borns and one not first born. And so everything's doing and achieving. And man, our second born just needed space. And my parenting had to shift to deeply listening.

and saying, do need us to be? What do you need from me? I think there's a lesson here around churches. If this is the experience that people are having, this deep performance thing, what does it mean for, especially for leaders to start acting that way and then internally being that way? Do you know what I'm saying?

Like what if that's the pivot we're inviting church leaders into?

Personally, I think it's the only pivot worth making, but it has to be made or it's just words. Unfortunately, I also think it's when you use that wonderful example of your child, that what that requires of a person of a mother of a father who is probably moving a breakneck speed and having to do a whole lot of other things. what you were in my house.

It'd be much easier to follow a formula, you know? It involves sort of, there's some humility there. There's a willingness, there's an openness. What do they say? what's the, the, people in recovery talk about the how, H-O-W, humility, openness and willingness. And those are hard. That's, that can be really, that's hard work. And it's also kind of exhausting.

to, because it involves you not only being in touch with the child and actually seeing them, but involves being in touch with yourself. And I think that that's, When people ask me what's the most difficult thing about serving in a church, it's the constant having to be in touch with myself. And I'm not talking about a narcissistic, monitory kind of way, like a spiritual fitbit or something like that. I mean, where is the gospel, where's my need for grace touching

ground and where is the scripture speaking to me this week? You know, where is, what am I honestly, what's honestly going on inside me versus what I like people to think was going on inside me? That, If you can get to that place of truth, I guess, God is always, you know, I think that's where God is present, but also it's going to resonate on a deeper level with other people. And then you're also going to be able to see them for what

who they are and what they're trying to convey to you. So I guess what I'm trying to say is that That's a tall order. That's not like going to a company and punching a clock. But it's the privilege and beauty of ministry, is to sort of somehow, it can't just be words. It has to be some kind of, You have to connect with

this message yourself in order to have the humility and openness to see other people. Within all this, by the way, I think it's powered, generated, motivated by the Holy Spirit. And so it's not, I don't want to make it sound like it's all up to us to figure this out because any, any clergy person worth their salt will, will tell you that God has a way of sustaining us, especially at the moments we think we've we're falling apart.

also wonder if forgiveness, asking for forgiveness and offering forgiveness might be a practice because I, and again, I go back to my kids saying, you know what, I really have to apologize. I was still doing budgets in my head or whatever doing project I was working on when I came into this conversation and didn't hear you, right? You needed something else and I didn't meet you in that.

Can we try again, right? Or can you forgive me? And I think that is a powerful way, I think, for leaders to not only take some pressure off yourself, but model to other people, hey, maybe you got in a conversation and it went down a road and you need to just ask for forgiveness or a redo, right? And I think that would give us more grace space, right? It would be a community where we don't have to,

worry about every word we say, right?

Absolutely. That's beautiful. the more I can apologize to my kids, the better. At least I want them to know that they have a father who can say sorry, or can say I was wrong. Both of those things. Those are not phrases that any of us, no matter who we are, that don't come to us automatically.

And it's certainly not something that's sort of culturally that I've smiled upon. But to be able to say, was wrong and I'm sorry, is enormously powerful. And again, I believe that the grace of God, which is sort of over all of this conversation, allows a person the ability to do that without fear of some terrible retribution or whatever you want to say. that ultimately my...

my belovedness is rooted in Christ and I can risk saying I'm sorry. And that's an enormously powerful thing. It's contagious and it's also powerful beyond our abilities to summon that power.

So one last question for you. suspect many of our listeners and viewers are feeling like what you're sharing is kind of allowing them to maybe take a deep breath or feels like a glass of cool water in a dry hot day or something. And they may be wondering, how can I reshape congregational life and ministry to actually restore?

to embody this way of being that you're describing, this grace-shaped way of being, rather than the freneticism of just trying to get everyone really busy, doing all this stuff in the church, programs, committees, all of that. So tell us some stories of maybe what this looks like in congregational life.

Sure, we have a, we just put together a welcome video for our church and I didn't realize we were doing something radical because at the very end of it, we, we, I feel like we preach the grace of God every single week, no matter what's going on in the world. We're not disconnected from the world. We're not disconnected from ourselves, but I are my, the rector of our church, as well as myself and the other preachers, we feel very strongly that if someone doesn't walk out feeling lighter than when they came in, we have somehow.

not been faithful. Like we take that very seriously. And so we put together a welcome video and they, you know, I was helping with the putting it together and we didn't script it. We just did a bunch of interviews. And at the end, our rector says, he says, we're thriving church. There's all sorts of ways to get involved, but if you just like to come on Christmas and Easter or sit in the back, that's okay too. I thought,

Okay, well that's just part and parcel of our culture at this church. We never shame people for being Christmas and Easter Christians. We're giving them permission to do that. The amount of clergy I've heard from who have told me that they can't believe we put that in our welcome video, that aren't we trying to make disciples or aren't we trying to get people to really join our church? And here you are saying they don't have to come very often. And yet, I've had just as more people excited about that.

And let me tell you, our church has just, it's never been bigger. I almost get embarrassed when I talk to other people in mainline denominations. Like we just can't, we have to keep adding services. And I don't, and The consistent refrain we hear from people is that they feel relief. They feel seen, they feel welcomed, but they also feel relief that they're hearing something there on Sunday morning that they're not hearing. You know, you can hear political exhortation everywhere.

You can find tradition, you can find that in Nepal, you can find community at a bar. These are great things, but what they're hearing that they're not hearing anywhere else is the radical forgiveness and grace of God that covers even you. Not the people out there, but the people who are here who are in my feeling, no matter what they look like, they've walked on glass to get there. That's just how hard life is. And if they're not walking on glass this week, they will be soon.

because no one's insides match their outsides. And so those are a few things I think that relates, that permission to not be involved. And I recognize that smaller churches have different things that are going on, because if volunteers aren't helping, then the staff are doing everything. And I love the pivot that I see in your organization from sort of what is it, clergy-led and laity-supported to.

laity-led and clergy-supported. I think that's absolutely ideal. Like What we try to do in ours is we never almost never introduce fresh programming. We wait, we pray that God would just activate the gifts of our congregations and the interests and that when the time comes, we can be ready to support whatever it is they want to do. So if they want to do a mission trip to Honduras, if they want to do a, you know, a outreach to

the disabled in our, in our congregation, in in our community. if, if they, if someone wants to, we're Right now we're having, we're doing support groups for people dealing with infertility and we've just, we just finished one for support groups for people dealing with, caregiving for, you know, someone with cognitive decline. we didn't introduce those people came to us and said, this is what we're dealing with. And we just watched.

And all of a sudden, we also had a support group for folks dealing with inter family estrangement. And that's a huge issue for people today. But they weren't clergy directed. We supported them. We were there to help lead, to lay out some ground rules, and to open the doors and make sure it happened and that it was publicized. But it wasn't a sense. And as a result, we just keep getting more and more folks.

You know, we have our problems like everyone does because it's a bunch of low anthropologists over here. But at the same time, I find the grace with which we understand or the way in which we understand our role and our vocation, which has to do ultimately with the grace of God as the absolute central animating force behind everything and message behind everything we do.

has been enlivening and exciting and inspiring and, you know, I don't want to say famous last words, but it's never been more fun to be in church work than it is right now at our church here. And to be an arbiter or a dispensary of relief and grace, I think is a major honor and an urgent calling. And I just want to help.

help more people do it.

Well, Dave, thanks for your work, your writings, your ministry and your stories. It's just been great to have this conversation with you today.

Thanks for having me, you too, I really appreciate it.

And to our audience, thank you for joining us on this episode of Pivot. To help spread the word about Pivot, please like and subscribe. If you're catching us on YouTube or whatever podcast platform you're listening to, leave a review. helps.

And remember the best compliment you can give us is to share this episode of a pivot podcast with a friend. So for this episode, it's Dwight and Terri signing off. See you next week.