Shownotes
In this episode, Norm Murdock and Brett Johnson are joined by Greg Lawson from The Buckeye Institute to dive into the critical issue of public school education vouchers in Ohio.
We'll start with a nod to last week's discussion on reparations, slavery, and Ohio's pivotal role during the Civil War. Then, we'll explore the origins and expansion of Ohio's school voucher programs, including their impact during COVID-19 and their recent universal application.
Our guests will unpack the intricacies of the Ohio voucher program, shedding light on its funding mechanisms and eligibility criteria, as well as the broader implications for public and private education in Ohio.
We'll also tackle the contentious debates surrounding school choice, teacher unions, and the potential future of education in the state. Whether you're a parent, educator, or policy enthusiast, this episode is packed with insights you won't want to miss.
And a special thanks to our sponsor, Harper CPA Plus for making this episode possible. Stay tuned for an enlightening conversation that gets to the heart of education reform in the Buckeye State.
Recorded at the 511 Studios, in the Brewery District in downtown Columbus, OH.
info@commonsenseohioshow.com
https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nd/4.0/
Stephen Palmer is the Managing Partner for the law firm, Palmer Legal Defense. He has specialized almost exclusively in criminal defense for over 26 years. Steve is also a partner in Criminal Defense Consultants, a firm focused wholly on helping criminal defense attorneys design winning strategies for their clients.
Norm Murdock is an automobile racing driver and owner of a high-performance and restoration car parts company. He earned undergraduate degrees in literature and journalism and graduated with a Juris Doctor from the University of Cincinnati College of Law in 1985. He worked in the IT industry for two years before launching a career in government relations in Columbus, Ohio. Norm has assisted clients in the Transportation, Education, Healthcare, and Public Infrastructure sectors.
Brett Johnson is an award-winning podcast consultant and small business owner for nearly 10 years, leaving a long career in radio. He is passionate about helping small businesses tell their story through podcasts, and he believes podcasting is a great opportunity for different voices to speak and be heard.
Copyright 2024 Common Sense Ohio
Transcripts
It's Common Sense Ohio, our first podcast episode of the summer of 2024. It's officially summer. Yes. Brett here, with Norm, a couple of guests from the Buckeye Institute. I'll let Norm take care of, introducing them as well as we get into it. First, we wanna mention our sponsor, HarperPlus CPA. You know, we're walking into the second half of the year, and if you have not if you don't have this kind of relationship with your CPA, shame on you because you should be able to look at the remainder of the year and know exactly where you're going with your business for taxes. Should be sitting down taking a look and going, yep, I owe this, I owe this, I owe this.
Brett Johnson [:Oh, yeah. I'm gonna make a little bit more money here. Okay. Well, just here, we're just here and you're walking in the remainder of the year looking fine looking fine. At least there's no there won't be any surprises at the end of the year that you're owing an additional $10 here, an additional 5 here because of this, or 25, 000 because of this. You're pretty much on track and that's what Harper Plus CPA does for you. Sits down and quarterly, monthly, whatever you wanna do. You know, depends on on how you wanna work with them, you're on track.
Brett Johnson [:So, if you're not running your business that way, why aren't you? It's just it's just common sense. Right? Anyway, Harper Plus CPA. We got that link in the show notes for you, to follow to to get more information about them. So Norm, we got 2 topics today Yeah. And we've got 2 experts
Norm Murdock [:to talk about those Absolutely.
Brett Johnson [:Things, but you wanted to recap a little bit from last week's show.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. So I wasn't here last week. I posted, a couple of reels, of, comments and Dan, of course, the entire podcast. And there was some discussion on our show, about, reparations, slavery reparations, and land that had been promised, but in the end not given to, free blacks. And some Ohio lit or Ohio legislation to address that and it's a general topic. And I know I know what, Brett meant, and it's a common expression that that people use when they talk about history, and, they weren't there. Obviously, none of us were there in the 18 sixties. Nobody at this table.
Norm Murdock [:Nobody at the podcast. And, Brett mentioned, you know, what we were like, and I know what he meant by that. He didn't mean us personally. But I thought it would be good to just address, be because, you know, the podcast did mention that there were racists. There were Copperheads. There were, Peace Democrats, they were called, and, Abraham Lincoln actually banished 1 of them to Canada. So there's a little bit of history about Ohio that I just thought I'd touch on. Take 1 minute.
Norm Murdock [:60% of Ohio males between 1845, served in the, Union Army or the Navy. 320, 000 Ohioans, all told, served during the Civil War, including 51100 free blacks. Many of those free blacks came through the underground railroad, which was particularly active in Cincinnati being a river town. Even though Kentucky was not in the Confederacy, it leaned that way. Ohio had 35, 475 approximate casualties in the Civil War, 19, 000, killed out of the 620, 000 total union killed, 100 medals of honor awarded to Ohioans. And, obviously, the GOP back then, they weren't talking about balancing a budget or any of that. They weren't talking about illegal immigration. Back in 18/60 and the election of 18/64, the top issue was abolition.
Norm Murdock [:I mean, that's why the GOP was formed, and Abraham Lincoln, of course, won both of those elections. Ohio went for the abolition ticket by 52.3% in that first election at 56.4. In Uncle Tom's Cabin by Harriet Beecher Stowe, that was published in Cleveland and in Cincinnati, in the, second edition after it it initially came out in Boston. So I just wanna mention some of those things because while we can talk about there are racists today and there were racists back then and racists of all different colors, by the way. Ohio largely was on the side of the angels, and Ohio in general was a positive force for humanity and emancipation of the slaves. And I just I wanted to get that on record, and I Sure. If I went on a bit, but I just think that context is important. And I'm not and I'm not in any way critiquing how you phrase that.
Norm Murdock [:I know what you meant.
Brett Johnson [:Right.
Norm Murdock [:When you look back at history, you meant, like, what we were like. You didn't mean the immediate people in this room.
Brett Johnson [:Correct. Yeah. Correct. No. No. No. No. Exactly.
Brett Johnson [:Exactly. Yep.
Norm Murdock [:Yep. So, our guest today, are, first off is, Greg Lawson who's here in studio, with the Buckeye Institute, an organization I have a little bit of history with. And then we and Greg is a policy specialist for the institute, and we have Dave Tryon, phoning in from Cleveland who is 1 of the Buckeye Institute's, top litigators, an attorney, and, has been with the institute, I believe, a little bit more than 2 years now. And and we we have Greg in specifically to talk about the Ohio Ed Choice program. And then when we get to Dave's specialty, some of the litigation, particularly involving the second amendment and some amicus briefs that the institute has, has filed in several important supreme court cases, both older ones and and current ones. So, without further ado, we we have had, Greg, no success despite many requests to have somebody in from officialdom. And, actually, I think it's better that you're here to explain EdChoice, because you don't you you don't have any turf to defend. You can just explain it.
Norm Murdock [:I I think what would be useful for our audience in particular because this is all brand new, The idea that you can that you have portability of your tax dollars to go and shop for the best education that you feel is out there for your child is something that, conservatives and free marketers, like, you know, Thomas Sowell and Milton Friedman, they have you know, like, this has been like a 60, 70 year, thing And we we we we stuck our toe in the water. Senator Cooper Snyder, a few decades ago, got that because he couldn't get it statewide. He got that program, experimental program for disadvantaged families in Cleveland, Ohio. And, of course, there was a program until Obama killed it in, Washington DC for, school choice. So if we could just let you go here and give us the big picture, what the program is, how it works for a family.
Greg Lawson [:Sure. Well, first of all, Ohio, I think, this is the idea of school choice, you mentioned Thomas Sowell. We talked a little bit before we went on there about Milton Friedman, and the ability of of leveraging you're putting money into the system. You're paying taxes and this is allowing you to get a portion of that back so you can make a choice for your own child. Vouchers in Ohio, they started with the Cleveland scholarship program. That was the first program and and ultimately, you know, it was the the program that led even to the US Supreme Court case, and and Dave actually is he's was involved in that case back when that was going on that found that vouchers were constitutional. And so we've always been AAI think a front line state, Ohio has been for school choice. It started off as a program that was really recognizing, hey, we've got a bunch of inner city, students that are really struggling here.
Greg Lawson [:Especially in Cleveland in particular. And we've got to do something to rescue them from an education status quo system that simply wasn't working to meet the needs of those children. After really the success of of the Cleveland program, things started to expand. We have a number of other voucher or scholarship programs besides that choice. There's a there's a special needs, there's an autism scholarship. There's 1 called the John Peterson scholarship that deals with other, special needs outside of the, just the spectrum issues that some students have. Then there was, obviously, EdChoice which started off as a program where you had to be in a public school building that was underperforming according to state tests. So if you were essentially, for lack of a better way of saying it, kind of a quote, unquote failing school, really underperforming, you'd be able to be eligible.
Greg Lawson [:Now and so and that was how Ed Choice was for for for many years. So that came about in the mid 2000. Actually, lieutenant governor Husted was the speaker of the Ohio House of Representatives when the Ed Choice program was created. And then, it got expanded under k governor Kasik, to include an income, 1 so that it wasn't where you had to just be, within a, quote, unquote, failing district by the academic standards. But if you were a low income, student, I think it was, like, up to a 125% or something of what they call the federal poverty guidelines, you you'd also be eligible. And I think that was actually really important because a lot of times, the public schools would sort of mess around with, how they do testing and sometimes students would get disenrolled before they take the test and so that would sort of artificially heighten the, test and scores in such a way that they would be taken kind of off the list for being a eligible for the Ed Choice program. And that was pretty common. Columbus was pretty guilty of that.
Greg Lawson [:There was a big scandal, what, a decade ago with, testing and people being removed and what they were doing in terms of what they reporting to the state. And and and, frankly, a big chunk of the reason they were doing things like that was they wanted to avoid having students being able to avail themselves of of these programs. They wanted to literally deny families and students a better education option for them. And frankly, I think that was unconscionable and there's a lot of things I think the public school district system is doing that's unconscionable. We'll talk probably about some litigation here in a minute on that. But then, I think what's happened is, people realized this was a big deal. We had and then we had the COVID closures. We had, you know and we could go on and on about how, I think, disastrous that was as a policy decision for students.
Greg Lawson [:You see it in the testing scores. It was just testing score, scores that showed Ohio and and it's not just Ohio. Pretty much everywhere is is suffering in terms of declines in reading and math scores, but it was dramatic.
Norm Murdock [:Greg, if I can just ask, was, DeWine's program on education during COVID, was the decision to shut down and for how long left up to each school board if he did not have a a top down mandate 1 way or the other?
Greg Lawson [:I believe initially it was. And then there was an opening to it and some of the districts, particularly public school districts, tended to be, very resistant. To be to be somewhat fair to the the DeWine administration, they tried to open up sooner than a lot of states did. And, actually, there was a lot of the teachers' unions and school districts that actually pushed back pretty hard, to try to keep them closed. Okay. And so We're
Norm Murdock [:all we're all so I didn't have kids then. Mhmm. Wasn't really tuned in to the all of the educational policies. Were all of Ohio's public school systems then they were they were shut down?
Greg Lawson [:They were pretty much shut down physically and now they obviously tried to do online sort of things and stuff like that. I mean, my
Brett Johnson [:kids,
Greg Lawson [:for for months, especially at the end of the school year when COVID hit, they were totally shut down. They were on virtual, Up Crew. And then they, started doing some things. They tried to open up in the fall. And and this is where you started to see DeWine tried to open them up for the fall for that next, school year. 21. 21, I guess. Yeah.
Greg Lawson [:Mhmm. And that and and he had and and I'll give him some credit for this. He he kind of fought and publicly sort of browbeat, frankly, some of the school districts who were, I think kind of embarrassing themselves and really throwing monkey wrenches into the lives of all kinds of families. But I'll say that even when all those schools were closed, we had all the virtual thing that was going on, which works for some students, does not work for many, and and was definitely, I think, a problem. And again, the testing scores that we see nationally are are are reflective of the fact that there is a major gap in performance. Really, I think very directly attributable to these kind of decisions. Wow. But private schools typically did not close down.
Norm Murdock [:Did not close.
Greg Lawson [:And so a lot of students that were able to avail themselves of the, program, the EdChoice program as it existed or 1 of those other, voucher programs I was mentioning. They were able to take advantage of it and and they were able to have less decline and there's been some academic studies that have indicated that a lot of private schools, not exclusively like religious schools, although I'd say that the majority of private schools probably have some religious affiliation, but not necessarily. Yeah. You don't have to.
Norm Murdock [:Like charter schools, for example.
Greg Lawson [:Right.
Norm Murdock [:You know, they're not religiously affiliated. Absolutely.
Greg Lawson [:Yeah. And and so, you know, what when I think policymakers and legislators start to realize is, man, this is this was something that was a a real, safety boat, you know, for a lot of these families and a lot of these students.
Norm Murdock [:Well, and I I guess, naturally, public school parents, noting that the private schools are largely open, maybe that helped drive this voucher idea because they're looking, hey, those people are open. I would like to get my kid in those schools rather than have them sitting here at home.
Greg Lawson [:Absolutely. I think it was a major driving factor. That and I think there was also, you know, on the students that were on Zoom, you some families started to see some of the things that maybe were in some of the classrooms that they were unaware of. And this has obviously led to some of the debates about, well, what are they really teaching in some of the public schools? Right. And that's a bit of a separate issue. We don't have to go down that Right. Pick the rabbit hole. But I think that also was another element that probably influenced the decision of many households, not all, that chose to do school choice, but but but some.
Norm Murdock [:That's a good point.
Greg Lawson [:And I think legislators said this is the time to do something big and bold. And so in the last budget, that was passed last year, they essentially, made EdChoice functionally universal. So if you have students in Ohio, you are probably eligible, to be able to obtain this scholarship. They call it voucher technically, they call it a scholarship program, but functionally a voucher. Now so so EdChoice is now eligible to any family. You get a full amount. There's a dollar amount that's assigned. It's, better double check and be sure.
Greg Lawson [:I know it's over 6, 000 for k through, k through 12. I'm sorry. K through 8. It's a little over $6, 000. Okay. As a matter of fact, it is, 6, 000 I can't see it right here. I was I I literally had it pulled up just a minute ago.
Norm Murdock [:I can't
Greg Lawson [:I took a touch It's a little over $6, 000 and then it's over $8, 000 For high school. For high school. Okay. And so and then they've actually, basically, they indexed it for inflation, which is actually really important these days with inflation at the level that inflation is so that each school year, you don't lose purchasing power, for the amount of the voucher.
Norm Murdock [:And I assume these numbers represent some sort of per pupil, spending that the state does for public school students.
Greg Lawson [:They're very much patterned after and and school funding is very complicated. But there's a base level of funding that every student is supposed to be guaranteed.
Norm Murdock [:Yes.
Greg Lawson [:And so, essentially, these these vouchers try to approximate what that base level is. Now Gotcha. To be clear, that is not the full amount that of an average public school student. That is actually far below. Sure. Because when you think about the total cost to a student, you aren't just looking at the state portion. You gotta look at the local portion. Big time.
Greg Lawson [:And these program, their choice is not at all funded. Not $1 of local property tax dollars goes into the
Norm Murdock [:Or local education income tax.
Greg Lawson [:School districts, which, by the way, the state of Ohio
Norm Murdock [:It's like a third of them or something.
Greg Lawson [:It is. And and we're the only state that allows local option income tax at the school district level. That's where the whole show on property taxes. No shit. Income tax and local taxes.
Norm Murdock [:No question.
Greg Lawson [:But but now to clarify, so if you're up to 400% of the poverty guidelines so this would be for, like, a family of 4 and has, like, 2 kids, it'd be about a 100 not quite but close to $125, 000 of total income in the house. Okay. You would be able to get that full dollar amount, of the Ed Choice. Okay?
Brett Johnson [:Beyond the 6 or the 8. I mean, or or
Greg Lawson [:you're talking to the 8. The full amount. You get that full amount.
Brett Johnson [:Okay.
Greg Lawson [:Gotcha. So now, if you, go above 400% in the household income, you then get there's a there's a formula that sort of does a gradual slope down. Okay. So you essentially get less. So the higher the income you have, the less you get of the voucher.
Norm Murdock [:Now With the thought being a a higher income family can disgorge of its own savings and earnings Yep. Part of the money to to send your kids
Greg Lawson [:to a private school. And now everybody still gets 1. So even if you, you know, top out at at I mean, whatever the income level we are, you can't get less than 10%. Now 10%, you know, 600 to 800. But, again, we're talking about soup you know, pretty high level and high income folks. Yeah. So that's how the program is. And you can go to the Department of Education and workforce now, is what it's called now.
Greg Lawson [:They've just changed that in the last budget. Used to be just the Department of Education and they have now tried to refocus the department to not just include education but to tie education and the development of the workforce.
Norm Murdock [:So it's called Department of Education and Workforce? That's right.
Greg Lawson [:Okay. That is now the official title for the department. And that that again was done in the last budget that was signed by the governor DeWine literally about a year ago. July 1, I guess, of last year is when he signed it.
Norm Murdock [:Interesting acronym.
Greg Lawson [:Dew. E w. Don't call III my understanding is the governor does not want you to call it Dew. III I've heard that. So I used to say, oh, odeu. You know, it almost sounds like a drink or something like that. I'm gonna go and get me an odeu. They don't like that.
Greg Lawson [:Or doo or doo doo,
Norm Murdock [:which is an entirely different subsidy.
Greg Lawson [:But but but but but DEW. Yeah. Okay. But the family could apply. They you do have to submit income information, to, you know, to validate what the amount
Norm Murdock [:is and stuff. Yeah.
Greg Lawson [:And and the key thing is that once you're eligible, there's list of schools that you can take that voucher to. Now not every private school participates. There are private schools that, for a variety of different reasons, may choose not to. Now many do. And there's a list on the Department of Education Workforce, little mouthful, website where
Norm Murdock [:you can go look at the list. Let me ask you this. Because there are some incredible public schools. So I'm from Cincinnati. Walnut Hills is is famous for being an incredible, public school district. Upper Arlington, I would say, in Columbus, You know, there are some excellent, excellent public school districts. Can you take this voucher and shop to them?
Greg Lawson [:No. So so that is something that
Norm Murdock [:That's a little painful. Well, I'll tell you. That was possible.
Greg Lawson [:In the broad scope of things, that's what the Buckeye Institute wants to see happen over time. Full marketplace. Full market. Yeah. Money following the student. You've maybe heard the phrase backpack bill Yeah. At the legislature. Yeah.
Greg Lawson [:And that's really what you'd wanna see in the long run. This is in a lot of ways, I think that I think this program, Ed Choice, is doing an incredible job. We have really expanded things. I think, legislative leadership in fact fact, I'll tell you the truth. I think our state senate president, Matt Huffman, is actually he's been at life the the the huge advocate of this Yeah. And he's 1 of the major driving forces of this. Yeah. Ultimate ultimately,
Norm Murdock [:you you'd like a a student maybe who's residing in a really tough school district that's just not hitting its numbers and they want to maybe go to, you know, New Albany Schools or, you know
Greg Lawson [:Or Orlandtangi, which is growing like crazy up in Delaware County. I'll tell you.
Norm Murdock [:Right. Or southwestern schools. Oh, yeah. Or You know, some schools that are really have a great track record for graduating and and, you know, SATs and all that stuff. So, anyway
Greg Lawson [:That is a long term
Norm Murdock [:policy goal. Okay.
Greg Lawson [:That gets a little more complicated because this gets to where you sort of have this, again, the the the dynamics of how Ohio does school funding is the state and local. Yeah. And if you look at total funding for the for, like, k 12 education, it's close to 5050. 50% of the aggregate spending is probably state, give or take a percentage or 2. It used to be below that. There was some litigation on on constitutionality of school funding in Ohio. Ultimately, Ohio started spending more. My understanding recently is with property values going up, that's actually allowed some districts to capture more local tax revenues.
Greg Lawson [:So now local revenues probably are slightly ahead
Norm Murdock [:in total. So Greg, little sidebar, I just want to know if this is still in effect. So 1 of the things that marketplace advocates were trying since they couldn't get vouchers, 1 of the things they put in state law was, if the 2 adjacent school districts agreed for reciprocity reasons that if let's say I'm in Westerville Schools and I abut New Albany Schools. If the 2 school boards agree to have reciprocity, students from 1 district could go to the other district. Is that still?
Greg Lawson [:It it is. Actually, this is an interesting thing and it's something we're gonna be working on with, hopefully, a number of coalition partners next next General Assembly. Okay. It's called o that's called, open enrollment. So that's public school district open enrollment. And it and up until this recent expansion of EdChoice with the vouchers, open enrollment was actually, if you think about it, the the biggest school, choice program in the state. Yes. That's like 80 something 1000 years.
Greg Lawson [:That's where
Norm Murdock [:I was going with that. Yeah.
Greg Lawson [:Now there's a problem here.
Norm Murdock [:Okay.
Greg Lawson [:It's permissive, which means you can do that. Now so, something like about 70% of we have about 610 or so school districts in the state of Ohio. About 70% of them allow some form of open enrollment.
Norm Murdock [:If you count the county boards, it's closer to 800.
Greg Lawson [:Well, you have no idea. I mean, government validity. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:That's all. You know?
Greg Lawson [:But they so you can choose to have it, on the contiguous school districts, which is what you were talking about. Right. Now, in theory, there's a quite a few that actually is kinda universal, which means they will take students. Now, realistically, you're not gonna jump, like, 2 or 3 school districts. Transportation wise, that's not real practical. Yeah. But in theory, if you really like the school district that's around 270 and you wanted to go there, you could if you wanted to. Yeah.
Greg Lawson [:Idea. Maybe However,
Norm Murdock [:the parents commutes there. Whatever. Right. Yeah.
Greg Lawson [:However, here is the thing. And I think it's it's it's really an interesting challenge. And, frankly, it's, I think, 1 of the biggest civil rights challenges we face right now Because it's permissive, a school board can choose not to do this and to not allow anybody in. That was my understanding. And so, invariably, of those 30% of districts that do not do any of the open enrollment, they're almost all suburbs of the major cities. Okay. So when you look at a map of Ohio and if you have a map of all the school districts, you'll see and there's a group called the Fordham, Institute that has this. If you Google it, you can you can find this map.
Greg Lawson [:Okay. It's really pretty dramatic. It's essentially donut holes around the urban areas.
Norm Murdock [:I can see.
Greg Lawson [:I live in Westerville. Westerville does not allow any open enrollment at all. We would like to see, frankly, open enrollment become mandatory with some caveats. Meaning, hey, if you literally are jam packed and you you got kids up the gills You
Norm Murdock [:don't have space.
Greg Lawson [:Yeah. We don't that's a
Brett Johnson [:different issue. Gonna force you to build new buildings. I mean, that's that's
Norm Murdock [:That makes sense.
Brett Johnson [:It's a hardship for the community.
Greg Lawson [:Correct. And that would not be
Brett Johnson [:In that vein.
Greg Lawson [:Right. That would I think that that would not be correct. That would not be fair. That said, there's a lot of school districts, that are declining in enrollment. I mean, we have public school districts are declining. Some of it's because students are going to charter school public charter schools which are outside the districts. Some of it's because of now, especially with the voucher program and EdChoice. Frankly, you know, we have demographic issues.
Greg Lawson [:People are just having less kids. So there's less kids, generally speaking, just doing any enrollment. But if you have a declining enrollment, you should wanna be able to bring kids in. Now there's some tweaking we have to do to the school funding formula. There were some changes recently made that created some some some issues there. But, conceptually, that's what we should
Norm Murdock [:do. Okay.
Greg Lawson [:And I think that these suburban school districts, that say no I mean, again, if they don't have space, again, you don't force them to. But if you have room, then you should at least be able to have a lottery system for students to be able to get in
Brett Johnson [:for a
Norm Murdock [:fair amount. If they walk in with their briefcase of voucher money. Yeah. You know, if it if it covers approximately the cost of educating that student, I don't see a downside.
Greg Lawson [:And and I think it's it's it's super important. And that is where we get to, you know, the complete fairness. Because, again, I think what's so brilliant about, the voucher program, which, again, in the long run, we wanna see this be full money following the student in a in a in a way. And and, actually, in the long run, vouchers, as great as they are, they're for tuition. Right? Conceptually, there's other policies that other states are doing that Ohio does not do yet. Now, I've written about this is called education savings accounts. And this is something that's even broader and brings even more market based
Norm Murdock [:stuff,
Greg Lawson [:pressure to bear because, in this case, you could use it for tuition purposes, but you could also use it for other things, like, not has to be bona fide education expenses, but it could be things like tutoring. It could be things like a a computer for the purposes of being able to do, legitimate schoolwork.
Norm Murdock [:Athletic fees?
Greg Lawson [:Potentially. You'd have
Norm Murdock [:to spend for the school.
Greg Lawson [:It depends on how you structure it. Some states, I think, do allow that. Not all do. Musicians. Musical instruments? That would be. Yes. Yeah. You know? So things that are, again, directly related, I think that then brings
Norm Murdock [:I mean, if you wanna play the tuba And the high score cheap. Those aren't cheap.
Greg Lawson [:They're not cheap. Right.
Norm Murdock [:So I'm just wondering. Yeah.
Greg Lawson [:So in theory, you'd wanna be able to do exactly. That would definitely be that.
Norm Murdock [:So, Greg, let's pivot into, so we can breathe Dave in.
Brett Johnson [:Let let me ask a couple questions.
Norm Murdock [:Oh, Joe. Go ahead, Brad. Please. Please.
Brett Johnson [:I'm I'm probably gonna play the other side of the fence here a little bit just because okay. So man. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:You had
Brett Johnson [:mentioned earlier I think this was off, Mike, before we recorded about organization. There's a coalition Vouchers hurt Ohio. Okay. So I'm seeing I just got the list of schools here and 1 in particular sticks out because that's where I went to school Mercer County.
Greg Lawson [:Okay.
Brett Johnson [:Bleeds red. Bleeds red Republican. There are no private schools other than 1 Catholic icy school in that county, but Salinas City Schools are against vouchers. Why would they be? Because the kids are not leaving.
Greg Lawson [:Well, and I think this is the the and I I
Brett Johnson [:think There are no kids are leaving.
Greg Lawson [:Well, I think it's even worse. I think it's really just wrong. I think there's a solidarity issue. You've got a lot of the big school districts. I think there's teacher unions that are driving this. The argument that the school districts are making right now Okay. And it's actually the people who are leading this charge are the same people who sued over the constitutionality of the state of Ohio's entire school funding system back in the nineties.
Brett Johnson [:Okay.
Greg Lawson [:They're really spearheading this. Their argument and I think it's a bad argument, but the argument that they're making
Norm Murdock [:is That's a Perry Local
Greg Lawson [:case. Yeah. That was the Derof case. And so, actually, the the leader of the organization that sued for that is leading this the vouchers.
Norm Murdock [:Bill Phillips?
Greg Lawson [:It is. It's literally Bill Phillips. Yeah. And and so he's the guy who's spearheading this. Okay. And, you know Who who we should say Mhmm.
Norm Murdock [:Bill Phillips was, at 1 time the acting superintendent of public schools in Ohio.
Greg Lawson [:That's
Norm Murdock [:right. So he was a very high ranking Mhmm. In fact, I had a good working relationship with him on privatization of school bussing. Oh, you mentioned that 1 last time. Equalized the the funding formula so that a school district would get the same amount per pupil whether they contract it out or ran it in house. Gotcha. And that gave the school boards at each school, district the opportunity to fairly assess Yeah. Which way to go.
Norm Murdock [:But that's a that's a side Mhmm. Thing.
Greg Lawson [:Well and But Bill
Norm Murdock [:Phyllis was a yes. He led that, debate. Yeah.
Greg Lawson [:He's a very zealous defender of public school. And I think, you know, if you read his emails and stuff, he's he's a true believer.
Norm Murdock [:Yes.
Greg Lawson [:IIII sometimes think that it's a little bit I think he may have a somewhat antiquated view of how public schools are operating in this day and age and how they're doing things today. And I think it doesn't really appreciate the importance of how school choice is not just something for wealthy families. This is something that for all families. Now, do wealthy families under the sometimes take advantage of it, especially as we diversify it? Sure. But this is something where we it's open and and and we are gonna continue to push to make sure that everybody is aware of the program. But they're suing because, essentially, their argument is because you're spending money on the vouchers, you're not spending enough money in the public education system overall. Thus, you are not essentially, complying with the state of Ohio constitutional mandate just like the Dauph case Yeah. Of being a quote unquote, I believe the phrase exactly that that that's hung up is a thorough and efficient system of publics.
Greg Lawson [:But the Public schools. The the Or common schools. The phrase.
Brett Johnson [:That decision, is it mostly looked at as conservative or liberal?
Greg Lawson [:The Dauph cases? Yeah. I would probably say more liberal because the argument was
Brett Johnson [:still doesn't follow why the Salina City Schools
Norm Murdock [:would be on vouchers.
Greg Lawson [:And and here's the problem.
Norm Murdock [:But a lot
Brett Johnson [:of I'm trying to connect
Greg Lawson [:the dots. They're they're saying they're
Brett Johnson [:just saying. Yeah.
Greg Lawson [:They're saying it's taking money away. Now here's the problem. Right? That that that there was several decisions in DeRoth, several sup state Supreme Court decisions.
Norm Murdock [:And follow-up settlement agreements. All kinds of stuff. But I would say I'm gonna temper, Greg, a little bit because I was I was very active as a lobbyist during that period. And I would say that, a fair number of Republicans thought that the funding formula was
Greg Lawson [:And I
Brett Johnson [:know that's it's broad and that's a broad stroke statement. I should have said that.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Because what you would have Yeah.
Greg Lawson [:Probably affects.
Norm Murdock [:Like like up around Toledo where that nuclear power plant is, that school district got to buy school buses almost every year. Brand new I mean, they they were swamped in money. Right? And and and it's a farm school district, maybe, like, adjacent to that district would be 1 of the poorest districts in Ohio. And people are saying it's kind of random. Like, if a biz if a big taxpayer happens to be in your district, those children get this deluxe education whereas the public school kids in a poor rural district like in Appalachia, which is where this case came from that Greg's talking you know, coal mines that are closed up and stuff. You know, like, nobody has jobs. They're Yeah. They're raising marijuana to to have a cash crop.
Norm Murdock [:You know, very destitute kind of situations down there. And so a lot of Republicans felt that it was something was wrong too. Sure.
Brett Johnson [:Okay. Yeah. But I Gotcha.
Norm Murdock [:And I don't wanna disagree with Greg, but I just want to augment.
Brett Johnson [:I just need some clarity because in regards to what it just seemed very glaring going, wait a minute.
Norm Murdock [:Yes. Well,
Brett Johnson [:this is This very conservative Yes. Area is is 4 vouchers hurt Ohio.
Greg Lawson [:I mean, it's just
Brett Johnson [:I wasn't putting the facts together.
Greg Lawson [:Well, I and to be clear, after Roth, the state spent a lot more money. So I mean, they spent a lot more money and they essentially do what they try to do is to offset what you were just describing, which is the state spends more per student in the districts with a low property tax base. So if you have a high property tax base, you might only get a $1, 000 per kid from the state and the rest is local. Yeah. Now if you have that problem where you're the farm, district and more destitute, the state might be spending a lot more of that. They'll be spending 7, 8 8, 000
Norm Murdock [:To make up for it.
Greg Lawson [:Correct. Sure. And that's the result of the law. Now, technically, in the last case, the last decision that the state supreme court said, they said it was still unconstitutional. But we've so and then they relinquished actually jurisdiction of the case. Yeah. So that was, I think in 2003 or 2004. It's about 20 years.
Greg Lawson [:So there's this outstanding thing where there's it's technically unconstitutional because nobody's ever relitigated it Right. Again. But yet there's been a lot of changes in the school funding. The other thing they did is they created an entire facilities commission where the state actually comes in far more because that was 1 of the things too was we had crappy buildings and Yeah. Decrepit buildings.
Norm Murdock [:Asbestos. Yeah. Blah blah.
Greg Lawson [:And we need to fix that. So they the state has an entire funding system now through the Facilities Commission where they can fix that. But here's what I think has happened. So I've you know, is it constitutional? Well, that's in the eye of the beholder. Lawyers, can probably do that. They've never brought litigation again since then on that question. Yeah. But now what they're doing is because of voucher and this is where the public school districts get very upset is they're essentially saying that now you're diverting money that should be going to us.
Greg Lawson [:Okay. Thus, we're not getting our kind of fair share and you're creating inequities in what's that, thorough and efficient common school system that the constitution supposedly
Norm Murdock [:Although in that same budget, Brett, we discussed this on the show, in that same budget, they actually, for the public schools
Greg Lawson [:Oh, Jack.
Norm Murdock [:Gave them a raise and it was separate from this voucher program. Like, it was a separate line item. So, really, that claim is false.
Greg Lawson [:Yeah. Well, actually they actually it's actually technically, there was a while where that happened, but, actually, the vouchers and charter school funding come out of the overarching school funding formula.
Norm Murdock [:But they jacked it up enough to compensate.
Greg Lawson [:And and and and so and I think here's the the the the general thing you'd have to look at is, the state is still spending way more money in the public school system. We have declining enrollments now too, which has to be factored in. And we have a system where we tend to guarantee certain school to show. Even if you're losing students, we don't necessarily it takes a while for that to particularly its way through the system. So you may be being overcompensated, for a while as you decline in enrollment. And so I think we have to be very careful about all that. But the thing that bothers me about what these folks are saying is a couple points. First of all, they wanna declare it unconstitutional.
Greg Lawson [:And if they were successful in declaring, something like Ed Choice unconstitutional, in theory, what that would mean is every single student you know, I think we had 60 or so. I forget the exact enrollment numbers. I should've looked that up. But all these students would immediately have to essentially go back into the public school district that they left. For whatever reason that they might have left, whatever choices that they have made. Whatever choices they may
Norm Murdock [:have made. Which is a monopoly. It's a monopoly. Yeah. It would be like saying you can only shop at a certain grocery store chain. Like, every like, Ohioans, you can't go to Giant Eagle. You've got to go to Kroger or some kind of crazy Well,
Greg Lawson [:if only that old Lawson store used to do it. It was just my name is Greg Law. You know, I coulda I I would have appreciated that, you know. They might have stayed in business there a little longer. A little captive audience here. We're all free. No. I'm joking.
Greg Lawson [:I'm joking.
Norm Murdock [:Well, I
Brett Johnson [:I got well, it and I don't wanna I don't wanna not go to second amendment. I I wanna give time to this or 2, but I guess and I've said this on the podcast before. You know, the voucher system obviously, it works for some and and doesn't for others, and there's a pros and cons for everything. But to me, it looks as though we're we're we have a cut on our arm, but we're band aiding our leg, putting bandages on our leg. We teachers are doing the best that they can in the scenarios that they're put in. My wife teaches future English educators at Wright State University. I know a lot of those teachers, you know, over the last 20 years.
Norm Murdock [:Is that a teacher's college? No.
Brett Johnson [:Wright State University.
Norm Murdock [:Okay. You know, teachers? You know, they're
Brett Johnson [:teaching teachers, you know, they're getting the whole the whole gamut. That's where I think graduate school, the whole 9 yards. Gotcha.
Brett Johnson [:It seems to me, it looks as though, okay. You've got schools that are doing the best that they can and again, there's waste everywhere. That sort of thing. But, I don't it how how do I want to say this? It seems as though, we're we're not addressing the situation that the students are also trying to do the best that they can, but they don't have the home lifestyle to be or the culture to be the best student that they can. These these teachers are working against home life that they can't even do homework, and they gotta bring homework back in. They're spending half the time doing homework that should be done outside. And I know elected representatives don't wanna go back and say to the constituents, you're bad. You're it's a terrible home situation.
Brett Johnson [:Give the teachers a break. Mhmm. Again, broad stroke, broad stroke. I get it because there are a lot of bad schools gonna because administrations are way too fat. Way too fat and way too heavy.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:But I don't know. I just I see these teachers struggling to do the best that they can in the situations that they bring in, but they're but the home life is horrible, and they can't fight it.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:They they can only do the best that they can where I think we grew up in a I think a different age and different scenario. I really do.
Norm Murdock [:Brett, I understand. I mean, there are metal detectors at public school entrances Exactly. Because kids are bringing guns because they think they think it makes them a man Right. To bring a gun.
Brett Johnson [:It's it's a totally different scenario that it's like, I can't even imagine teaching in that No. In that No. In that type of school.
Norm Murdock [:I understand. But here's the thing. Should the student, right, be compelled to go to a nightmare school, the voucher allows the parents, even even if it's not a great parent
Brett Johnson [:No.
Norm Murdock [:I get it. It allows a parent to say, hey. I'm working 3 drop jobs scrubbing floors, tendon bar, whatever I'm doing. I want my little Johnny or little Sally Yeah. To go to
Brett Johnson [:And and I guess that leads to my then I'll ask ask 1 more question about this. What is the end run for voucher then? What's the end run? Is it to The
Greg Lawson [:new policy goal.
Brett Johnson [:Is it to break public schools and close them up? Because what's going to me, it looks
Norm Murdock [:just like You only have 1 childhood.
Greg Lawson [:I understand. Oh, no. I understand.
Norm Murdock [:And so it's to allow the parents to optimize their options.
Brett Johnson [:Right. So what it but there
Greg Lawson [:is an
Brett Johnson [:there but is there an end run for vouchers?
Greg Lawson [:Well, I think I think I think the end run of school choice, and if we got to the full system that we'd like to see, like, from the Buckeye
Brett Johnson [:side Right.
Greg Lawson [:With the education savings account that's done by before Right. What you'd be seeing in in theory I mean, and this is this is right now, look, pie in the sky
Norm Murdock [:right now.
Greg Lawson [:It certainly is. So I I don't it's not gonna happen tomorrow. But I always say, look, we customize our entertainment options. We have Roku. We can get HBO. We need ESPN. We can package them if we want to. We can do them individually.
Greg Lawson [:We
Norm Murdock [:have choice for everything else.
Greg Lawson [:We and I know education is different. I mean, it's obviously fundamental and foundational. But why can't we piece together a thing where if you had this money, you could go and do the, computer science class if you maybe you have to Zoom it or maybe you go down to the community college and you do that so you can do some coding and computer science. Yeah. And then you'd take several of your, like, English classes at the school that you're zip coded into because of where you have to live. And then you could go and maybe hire a tutor for something that you may So
Brett Johnson [:you're looking into different model.
Greg Lawson [:I think we're looking Public school. I think in the long run where public schools would eventually be a vendor and a provider of services. But what we're doing is we're actually funding the students. I think the question that we have is, it's not so much that we wanna, like yeah. You don't want it's not about shutting down public schools. It's about saying, how do we fund the education options Yeah. Of the family? Yeah. So we do this.
Greg Lawson [:And, interestingly enough, a lot of other countries, it puts
Norm Murdock [:a focus back on the consumer.
Greg Lawson [:Sure.
Brett Johnson [:No. No. No. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. And and Brett, let me just say and then we we really
Greg Lawson [:will get Dave in.
Brett Johnson [:Exactly.
Norm Murdock [:But but let me just say also that if Milton Friedman, you know, rest is rest in peace, if he was here, he would also say to you, okay, a district that maybe is too heavy on administrative staff and a district that sees students walk out the door with their vouchers Would improve. Will will say to itself inwards. Well, we're gonna we're gonna go out of business here Yeah. That's right. Unless we improve as a district. And so
Brett Johnson [:You would hope. I don't because they don't have a business mindset there.
Norm Murdock [:Well, they don't. They
Brett Johnson [:it'll start to turn.
Norm Murdock [:When you're in a market
Brett Johnson [:start to turn.
Norm Murdock [:When those schoolteachers and the administrators are in a survival mode, like our district is gonna go out of business unless we really polish up our act. Even though there are unfair socioeconomic issues that you're talking about, which I totally agree with, but I don't want to make the student Milton would say, the student cannot he cannot or she cannot be the victim of a system like that. They only have 1 child.
Brett Johnson [:Right. And and I agree. And it's it's a it's a not bag of that whole thing.
Norm Murdock [:And the students are not there for the benefit of teachers and administrators. They're there to get an education.
Brett Johnson [:True. Exactly. Exact and I agree with that.
Norm Murdock [:So I'm not smashing your point. The socioeconomic problem
Brett Johnson [:It's it's a tough situation.
Norm Murdock [:Totally real. Yeah.
Greg Lawson [:It is. Well, and and
Norm Murdock [:it's totally real.
Greg Lawson [:And and I think that's right. And I think 1 of the great challenges is I mean, we're huge advocates of school choice. We wanna see it, obviously. But look, you gotta have families that are able to be engaged, understand it. We gotta also make it somewhat simple. I mean, the 1 thing you know, I love the market. We represent that. The 1 thing we've gotta be careful of is as you expand that, you have to be able to also educate people, the the families, about what the options are.
Greg Lawson [:Because, you know, freedom can be Yeah. Freedom is a great thing. But freedom's a little bit of a burden in the sense that you have to now make choices.
Brett Johnson [:Oh my god. Yeah.
Greg Lawson [:And when you have to make choices, you have to understand things, do your homework, have to really do it. Kinda get you back involved with education to a
Norm Murdock [:certain degree. So Brett, I'll tell you what. When I was in Cincinnati going to high school, if I had so I went to St. X High, which is a Catholic Jesuit high school. Right? Okay. My parents spent some pretty good money to do that. I had to help pay it back by working at Sure. Yeah, for my dad and, went back to, his bills.
Norm Murdock [:But the point is, if if I had the choice to go to Walnut Hills, which I didn't live anywhere near, but but Finneytown was real far from Delhi. So I was doing a 45 minute drive anyway. Yeah. I probably would have gone to Walnut Hills, which is a public school. Mhmm. Because the National Merit, you know, semifinalists and their SAT scores, they were better than St. X. They were really it still is, I'm sure, a fine public school.
Norm Murdock [:And so I'm just saying when fully fleshed out, if you have that portability to go to any public school or private school, that's that's where I think the the really good public school systems will rise and the bad ones that are mismanaged will will fall away. And maybe maybe Walnut Hills School District ends up being 3 or 4 times the size that it is now because it's a center of excellence. Mhmm. I'm just saying. Yeah.
Greg Lawson [:Yeah. No. No.
Brett Johnson [:Thanks to our sponsor, Harper Plus CPA. If you need anything, even if you're just doing individual taxes, they they they can cover you too. You didn't like your tax preparer this year, you didn't like the guys, as as, Steve would say, swing swinging the sign on the corner. Harper Plus CPA can handle you as well too. So if you didn't like what was going on with that, they they can handle that level as well. And that's all we got right now for Common Sense Ohio.
