Life's biggest milestones can impact your clients' friendships. Jeff Hall, director of the Relationships and Technology Lab at the University of Kansas, explains how financial professionals can create value by anticipating the social needs of their clients and prepping them for these events.

John, it’s interesting. Last night, my husband and I were having dinner with four couples, all of different ages and stages of life. And I was talking about how excited I was to record this podcast with Jeff Hall today about the importance of friendships in our life. And the conversation really turned to thinking about ultimate retirement. And again, it’s it’s many years off for for many of us. But the dinner conversation was just fascinating in that none of us had really thought about this very carefully, thought about the idea of replacing friendships in our life as we look to retire and go to a different stage of life. And it really produced just an engaging conversation. And so I’m so excited to think about learning more about this. I don’t know, John, if that’s something that you’ve thought about in your own life or it’s conversations that you’re having.

Well, especially in some of the more recent research we’ve been doing, Julie, about retirees and and not just friends, but what we’ll call networks. Like where do we find the network of friendships or activities or places that replaces what we might have done for a living, let’s say, for ten, 20, 30 years in the workplace? So as we transition between known networks and ones that we can’t see so well, at least in the short term, how do we think about these things? And that’s why I think it was so great that we could have Jeff Hall with us to talk about specifically networks and really how to rebuild networks and how to engage them as we age. So, Julie, why don’t you share with our audience a little bit about our guest, Jeff Hall?

Jeffrey, a hall is a Ph.D. from the University of Southern California and is a professor of communication studies and director of the Relationships and Technology Lab at the University of Kansas. He is a past chair of the Human Communication and Technology Division of the National Communication Association and is current Chair of the Interpersonal Communication Division of the International Communication Association. His award winning book Relating Through Technology, was published by Cambridge University Press in 2020. He has written for the Wall Street Journal and has been interviewed by the New York Times, National Public Radio, The Washington Post, Financial Times, USA Today, The Atlantic, U.S. News and World Report, and CNN and has also appeared on The Steve Harvey Show. And it’s personal with Amy Hoggart.

So, Julie, let’s bring everyone in and have them join us in this conversation with Dr. Hall about how to help clients envision what their friendship networks will look like in retirement. Hi, I’m John.

And I’m Julie.

We’re the hosts of the Harvard Fund’s Human Centric Investing podcast.

Every other week, we’re talking with inspiring thought leaders to hear their best ideas for how you can transform your relationships with your clients.

Let’s go.

Jeff, welcome to our Human Centric Investing podcast today. We’re so excited to have a great conversation with you.

Glad to be here. Thank you.

Well, Jeff, on today’s podcast, we want to talk about helping clients envision their future networks, what life will look like down the road. And I think when we talk about major milestone events, I know oftentimes Julie and I are talking about retirement, birth of a grandchild, something usually the positives because nobody wants to start off with the negatives. But it seems there’s a balance, right? Because sometimes folks may look at milestone events with trepidation, like there’s a loss or something. I’ll be losing my my job, maybe my status with my job. But, you know, and I’m thinking about gaining other things. How do you add in the context of

networks and friends? How do we use friends and how should we help clients begin to envision not just the positives, also potential negatives and vice versa?

Yeah, that’s that’s a really good question. You know, one of the things that I like to think about a lot is this concept that we have kind of a network of people that we live among. We have the people in our homes, we have the people at our work. We have people in our community or in our neighborhood. We have the people who we have conversations with and talk to about important things from financial planners to our hairdresser to the person who, you know, favorite person, our barista. Right. So we have all of these different ties in our space. And one thing that I like to think about when I think about those ties is all of those ties are very much geographically space important, right? That geographical spaces matter. So if you are not physically with another person, it actually becomes extremely difficult to keep that relationship intact and certainly the level of closeness as we might like. So any transition that changes a geographic space. So leaving a job or starting a new school or quitting school. All of these things make a big difference in whether or not we have access to the people that really matter. And as a person who has studied extensively online networks, you know, social media, people keeping in touch with old fashioned media like telephone calls, all of those things are surprisingly rare except for our most important people, the people who really matter. And even then, it’s probably less communication than we would really prefer to have because it’s harder to do. So the big question that I think I would ask myself, whenever making these big life decisions is think to myself what’s now going to be missing or what’s added?

So, Jeff, I have a follow up question to that. Lots of times we get questions about whether online is equivalent to in person. Right. And I guess I’m a little bit old fashioned because I just feel like something magic happens when people come together. But when we talk about these networks that you mentioned, are there appreciable differences? And I know it’s hard to sum it up in like 2 minutes, but are there differences between online and in-person or not?

Definitely there are definitely differences. The first thing I’d say is you’re actually not old fashioned. One of the things I’m very excited about is young adults are talking more about going kind of analog, you know, going back to having a flip phone, trying to spend more time with people in person, less time on social media. There is a strong analog movement out there among young adults. So guess what? You’re you’re not old fashioned. You’re new fangled. You are you are at the cutting edge. And I personally. That’s right. That’s right. The funny thing is, I personally am thrilled to know that this is happening. I think that it is exactly the kind of counterbalance we need to push back against a rising climate of interiority, a focus on self, focus on media, because all of those things are not as satisfying as having close face to face relationships. There are several recent studies, including one that I published, that say it’s just not sufficient for getting our needs met in the same way that a face to face contact is and that there’s a ladder, right? That things like phone calls are pretty high on that ladder because you get a one on one conversation, typically with someone who you care about. And then at the bottom rung of that ladder is like social media contact, which is barely better than being alone. So I think the thing that we really have to keep in mind about all of this is that how you communicate makes a big difference and whether or not you’re able to maintain meaningful connections with one another. And it’s just the facts that when it comes to online communication again, or mediated communication like the telephone, it requires so much more planning, so much more intentionality, so much more of those kind of things which prevent it from happening in a meaningful way than just face to face contact with people who are in our geographically close space. And that’s why I spend a lot of my energy and time thinking about how spaces really matter for our well-being.

You know, Jeff and by the way, I’m going to hold my smartphone very tight because I’m not trading that into a phone any time soon because of the efficiencies it gives me.

But I know you’re making me nervous there. But in all seriousness, when I think so often when John and I speak with financial professionals who obviously are having conversations with our clients every single day about what’s their vision for retirement. And so often it’s the date that one or both members of the couple stop working. The alarm clock doesn’t go off tomorrow and they want to move as a Seattle light. Maybe they’re moving to Scottsdale or to Florida, or they’re getting that second home and all of a sudden it’s going to be beautiful whether they’re going to golf together, you know, do all of these leisure activities. And I think that that’s obviously such an

attractive picture that one paints in their mind of retirement, and I’m sure for so many, so many aspects of that do come to fruition. But from your perspective, what are some of the pitfalls to this amazing sunny destination plan when it comes to social engagement? If you’re thinking about that aspect, which I don’t think many are. Could you share with us some of those thoughts that maybe could arm financial professionals to sort of ask some questions or engage in this conversation as their clients are saying, Oh, we’re about to make an offer on this home in this beautiful, sunny location.

Yeah. I mean, I would start with saying something that I think is critically important. Research study after research study has demonstrated that if it comes to the most important outcomes in your life, and this research has done a lot on people of retirement age, that your social relationships, your frequency of communication, your opportunities to talk to people that matter, the quality of your relationships and quality of communication, predictor longevity.

They predict your health. They predict whether or not you’re happy. It depends on whether or not you’re satisfied with your life. Relationships matter, and they matter even more than things that you might guess matter for your health, such as like BMI or how much you smoke. I mean, it is a huge predictor of all the most important things. So I’m I’m thrilled for those clients who want to move to a sunny locale and it’s a warm weather. But I would also say, who are you moving to?

Right. There is a place you’re moving to, but who are you moving to? And if there is no who, there is no person, there’s no people that you’re moving to. You’re going to have to acknowledge the fact you’re going to have to start from scratch. You have removed yourself from an embedded community of people that you knew from work, from your community, those weak time relationships, as we talked about before, or all of these different sort of people who are very much part of your day to day life, and you’re imagining a place where you’re doing all these things, but you’re doing all those things by yourself, or maybe only with your romantic partner. And that’s a lot of weight. It’s a lot of pressure to put on just one person. To be able to satisfy all of those belongingness needs to have the kind of company that would make you a full and complete person. So the one thing to keep in mind here is we. You’re making a decision about where to go. You should also make a decision about who you are going towards.

And Jeff, I think it’s interesting you just mentioned that concept of weak ties. You know, one of the presentations that Julie and I and my team have been doing for clients and financial professionals called the social portfolio. And it we go all the way back to Aristotle and start talking about friendships like utilitarian and virtuous and fun. But you know, it seems to me those utilitarian relationships, those weak ties that you mentioned, friends who are really our close friends. But you say weak ties are still important, kind of in your own words. Tell us what weak tie relationships are and why they’re important.

Yeah, the concept of weak ties came from people who do social network analysis. You know, this is a concept. It’s about 40 or 50 years old. And it was really kind of two things strong tie, weak tie, simple strong ties or your friends and family, your children, your parents and then or your closest friends, of course, but also your weak ties. Are everybody else strangers, acquaintances, people that you get to know? I tend to actually make a little more nuance there. You know, one of the things I think about there is the idea that you have a community of people and then you have individual people who you are close to that are part of your kind of day to day life. The difference there is when you are a part of, for example, a religious community, if you’re part of a softball team community, when you’re part of a planning committee community around something that you care about, you don’t really know those people terribly well except for in the context of the thing that you do together. What we know about those kind of community ties is that they’re terrific for the fact that you are going to see these people some more. You’re going to see them around town, you’re going to see them at your kids events, you’re going to see them at other celebrations, but also, you know, funerals and things like that. They are part of who your community is. And investing in those spaces allow for you to feel, you know, nourished, allow you to feel belongingness, a sense of connection to your community. And I think they’re very valuable. The other set of weak tie relationships, which usually researchers who look at this attend to, are things such as your, you know, your favorite grocer. So if you want to pick a grocery store line, because that’s where someone who you like to go check out and see how they’re doing is they’re the person who, as I mentioned before, person cut your hair. Your financial advisor. You know, all of these people who are specific people that you have a reason to keep seeing over and over again. Those are also important people, too. When you move away from a

place, you lose both, right? You lose the whole set of the weak tie from the community point of view, and you lose all of those relationships built on a service that they’re providing, utilitarian relationships, as you mentioned, for the Aristotelian point of view. But I would point out that both have evidence that they actually relate to a sense of loneliness and belongingness in good ways. Right. That people who have stronger and more frequent weak tie relationships are less lonely.

And specifically on days where you feel a low belongingness, a sense in which that you’re kind of feeling alone or out of sorts, those little contacts matter more. So interestingly, you can have kind of a very meaningful contact or a meaningful conversation with someone when you’re feeling disconnected from the other people around you, even if that someone is someone who is kind of a stranger to you or just someone who, you know through your professional relationships, because that really tends to makes a difference in whether or not your your days are feeling connected.

It’s fascinating, Jeff, when you talk about, you know, what are you going to what maybe what are you gaining? And I just watched my parents experience this and they were tired and had their winter home in Scottsdale. And and with no no connection, no family, no, you know, maybe some some friends down there, but not a huge network. And fast forward eight years and my niece and nephew, their grandkids are here in Seattle and they just sold that house and they’re right back here in Seattle because that’s where all the action is. So when you were describing that, I just thought, oh, I just lived through that. So it’s just interesting to think about that, that network. And what are you heading to? What are you really gaining? I love the way that you put that. I’m curious, as we get older, what are your thoughts on making new friends sort of from scratch? Is it easier because we have more life experience and more depth and more things to talk about? Is it more challenging because it’s sort of like we’ve been there, done that. What are your thoughts on that? You know, making new friendships as we age?

Yeah, there’s a lot of good evidence that unfortunately that the the golden years of making friends or the youngest part of our lives. And that just tends to be the research evidence points that out. There’s a a decade that I like to point to. It’s between 15 and 25 years old where you will have the largest number of friends that the biggest social network, the most people that you know, the most conversations, the most interactions. Part of it is when you’re young, you have time, which is critical in being able to make those relationships. Some of it is a self-development issue. So there are some developmental theorists say that period of life is really about building a sense of identity of who you are. So you’re trying on. Different identities through your romantic relationships, through your friendships, through your your, you know, whether your career is changing or your education is changing. You’re figuring out who you are. But the last part is you’re also not deeply embedded in relationships already, with the exception of your home that you came from, which a lot of young adults actually separate themselves emotionally from that home. You’re actually very open to meeting new people and being available to all these new people that you meet, which is different than other times of your life, where you have perhaps a romantic partner, children, you know, a stable job or some sort of sense of identity in a community, which means that you’re not as open really to meeting new people. So older, you know, I would say middle age adults complain often and very vigorously about how hard it is to make friends as an adult. It is hard. There are fewer people around. Most people are do not have the time to spare, and they’re really not at a point of their development where they’re interested in trying to find a new identity or develop a new relationship. Now, that does change a bit at retirement, but it still requires the same kind of composite of characteristics or variables, if you will, that makes a difference. You have to have people who are open to meeting you with the time to do so and a place to meet them. So if you are not going to places, if you’re not with people who are open to meeting you or open developing friendships and you actually don’t find people who are similar to you or share characteristics of you in order to deepen that relationship. It’s still very difficult to develop a relationship at retirement, even if you have the time.

So Jeff. As I think about what you just commented on, it makes me think of the research I read around this concept of Everyone needs a third place. Right? So one of the things I’ve been talking to retirees about is the importance of the third place, because on there’s the transitions you talked about earlier in life. It seems like there’s a place waiting to catch up with new relationships, like I’m going to go to a college university or the military, a whole bunch of new people that I’ll be around. I’m going to go to my first job or a new job all the way through life when I get to retirement. How important do you think it is for retirees to think concretely and maybe

even for financial professionals to begin to encourage people towards seeking what a third place is? And maybe for everyone listening, explain what a third place is. And then my question is, can we have fourth, fifth and sixth places as well?

I would be happy to. So let me I’ll make this as succinct as possible. I mean, one thing to think about is I love the idea of a third place because it’s basically a place you hang out. Like if there is a place that you can hang out, it is a third place. So there is even early thinking that a third place might be a place online, right? A place that you can hang out online and meet new people as well. So it doesn’t even have to be physical. But a third place can be a bar. It can be a VFW hall, it can be a church, it can be a synagogue. It can be a place where you volunteer.

So it’s basically a place where you go to hang out. Now, the volunteer one doesn’t quite fit that exactly, but you really want it to be a place in which that you’re there just for the sake of being there. Right. What’s unfortunate is that third places are hard to find. Right. I mean, we really do not embrace, like, the pub culture of England. We do not. We are less likely now. Americans are less likely to be members of churches, synagogues or mosques, or to attend them than ever before. That number is declining and has declined for decades. So there really aren’t a lot of these places available. So for financial advisors to recommend people do this, go out, meet people, go to a place over and over again, I think is really, really critical. Your question about whether or not we’re able to have fourth and fifth places, I’d actually go backwards in that and say, can I go back to my first place and keep in touch with my friends or the people who are no longer with me physically? Right. Because I think we really do not take the time and priority to say, I’m going to make that phone call. I’m going to make sure I catch up the next trip I take. I’m going to go towards people that I want to see. So my vacations aren’t just for for leisure and wonderful food, but for also for seeing people who I love and I want to keep up with. So I might not extend the circles beyond the third place. I might extend the circles backwards towards the first place and keep in touch with the people who matter most.

If we think about our mean financial professionals that are listening today with some tools maybe they use with their clients who are thinking about retiring, are there any topics or themes or questions that they might start asking their clients that specifically start to address the thought of losing their work friendships as they retire? Do you think it’s such an interesting and fascinating concept and and I’m confident that these are conversations that financial professionals are having every day, but probably don’t necessarily have the exact tools to help clients start to paint that clear picture for this next phase of life without those work, friends and networks.

Yeah, that’s I think that’s a very hard conversation to have because I think people are not very intentional about their social health. One of the big themes I’m working on and in a new book that I’m writing, is to thinking about the idea that. Social health is really not how we prioritize our our energy or time. We think about our physical health. We think about nutritional health. We think about our exercise habits, but we do not think about our social habits as being part of our health regimen. And I strongly encourage people to think of it that way. So one tool that a financial advisor can think about is, Hey, have you thought about your social health, right? Who are the people who matter? How often are you going to see them? Will you see them in this new place that you’re going? You know, are you seeing anyone or meeting new people in the places that you are going to be part of once you have moved or once you have retired? I think your point about the workplace is also critical. A recent study actually found that for educated people with a college education, that is the number one place where they actually meet close friends after they leave college. Right is the workplace. It’s a major place for developing friendships. Now, there’s no reason you have to lose those friendships. Right? You can keep in touch with the people from your old job or social. Certainly if they’re of similar age of retirement, they may be interested in keeping in touch with you after time has passed. So I think what’s important to think about is when we think about our social health, it’s really important to think who are the people who I have access to? How can I continue to keep my presence physically in that sense of physically present with another person? And if I can’t keep that physical presence with another other person, can I do so electronically? Can I keep in touch with them by the phone? Can I keep in touch with them through ways of of, you know, visiting them in the future, but in between sending texts and otherwise to keep in touch? Because I think if we don’t think about our social health, no one’s going to think about it for us.

So, Jeff, as we close our episode today on the social networks, I want to give all the folks listening today a leg up in case they’re ever wandering around the University of Kansas and happened to run into Jeff Hall. We want to know a little bit more about you, maybe to start some of those conversations. So we have what we call a lightning round. I’m glad, because I’m going to let Julie kick us off. We’re going to hit you with a bunch of questions, and we want that first thought off the top of your mind. So, Julie, go ahead.

All right.

What’s your ideal outside temperature?

Oh, that’s a good one. I actually love an overcast day kind of mid-sixties. So, you know, you could wear a long sleeve shirt or a little jacket, but the sun peeks through occasionally so you can warm back up again. So that would be my temperature. But not too hot, not too cold, kind of low to mid sixties with a little bit of clouds.

Are you messy or neat? And we’re asking for self-perception, not what your family would say.

Oh, I am the neatest person in my family, but by a long shot. I work constantly to pick up stuff around the house and like. Why is this here? This needs to go another place. This is not where it belongs. So my kids have to get accustomed to the idea that I might take it somewhere else. It doesn’t belong here because my standards of neatness is in a constant battle of the chaos of my home.

So to follow up to that, do you prefer a paper to do list or a digital one?

So you said earlier that you are old school, John. So check out. You want to see how old school I am. I have a paper to do list on used paper that I stapled together myself. So what’s crazy about that is I’ve been using I’ve been using that system for a while. I don’t even know when I started, I think maybe graduate school, but it’s like I’m recycling the paper, which makes me feel like I can tear it up and use it so I can just draw notes on it and throw it away without feeling like I’m wasting paper. But I also like it because it gets to stay on the dang desk.

It’s not something I have to see every time I pick up my phone or be beeped or reminded about like I got enough of that already. I think it’s my to do list somewhere else. Absolutely.

It’s not satisfying.

It’s oh. Oh, the lines. Drawing the line of crossing out so satisfied, just throwing away.

That’s what I would say.

So nice. And you know, the way they electronically cross it out. That’s no good electronic cross out. That’s nothing. That’s like that’s like a delete. I don’t need a delete. I need a line on the paper.

Totally agree.

Jeff, how bout dogs or cats?

Neither is the answer. I’m very. I’m very allergic to cats, so I can’t do that. I go to people’s houses. I can’t I cannot do the cat thing because I’m my allergies. But I really genuinely like dogs. I just cannot be bothered with the the all the things that come with a dog like the, the hair, the cleaning up after them.

That goes in-line with the neat question.

I think that if I was home a lot more like not at work as much, I wouldn’t feel so bad about a dog being left alone. You know, my parents have a dog and it’s a beautiful dog, but it’s home with them all the time. So it has good company. So for me, it’s like the dog is like my retirement goal to get to the point where I’m actually, you know, home enough to be able to hang out with a dog that would be like, you know, a plus.

Well, Jeff, thank you so much for giving us some more insight into the human centric side of you through that lightning round of questions for those listening that would like to learn more about Dr. Hall’s research. Feel free to check out his relationships and technology lab at R and T Lab IQ dot edu or feel free to secure your own copy of his book relating through technology. Thank you again for being here with us today. It’s been a delight to learn more about friendships with you, and we appreciate your time.

That’s spent a lot of fun. Thank you both.

Thanks for listening. So The Hartford Funds Human Centric Investing Podcast. If you’d like to tune in for more episodes, don’t forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and follow us on LinkedIn, Twitter or YouTube.

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