Listen to the song

• YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDgAKf6pE6I&list=RDKDgAKf6pE6 
• Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/track/4sluRx2AOutiE6pVszQfZ0 
• Apple Music - https://open.spotify.com/track/4sluRx2AOutiE6pVszQfZ0 
• Amazon - https://music.amazon.com/albums/B07VGP8RCW?marketplaceId=ATVPDKIKX0DER&musicTerritory=US&ref=dm_sh_OnOs1Dd5AHZ7VTB6bC1Si32Zb&trackAsin=B07VCH4ZX8 

Other links

• There's Nothing Like This: The Strategic Genius of Taylor Swift, by Kevin Evers
• “Here It Goes Again” music video, OK Go
• Pomplamoose Patreon

Key Takeaways

• The featured song, “The Laundromat Swing,” is a clever and compact duet by Racahel and Vilray, released in 2019 but styled to emulate 1940s music
• The recording style mirrors the 1940s, using a single high-quality microphone and live balancing, which adds warmth and authenticity to the sound. ​
• The song's lyrics are clever and nostalgic, using 1940s slang and focusing on a lighthearted, relatable topic about making a good impression
• In the mailbag segment, Elaine and Trist discuss the importance of marketing and branding for creatives, emphasizing that quality alone is often not enough for success

About us

Trist Curless is a Los Angeles-based vocalist, educator, and sound engineer. As a performer, Trist has toured worldwide as a co-founder of the pop-jazz vocal group m-pact and a 10 year member of the Grammy-award winning The Manhattan Transfer. In addition to these two vocal powerhouse groups, he’s also performed with Take 6, Bobby McFerrin, New York Voices, Vox Audio, Naturally 7, and The Swingle Singers. His latest venture, The LHR Project, is a new vocal group collective celebrating legendary jazz vocal group Lambert, Hendricks, and Ross.

As an audio engineer, Trist has toured nationally with several vocal groups and bands in a large variety of venues, working for Grammy award winners Pentatonix and Take 6, as well as prominent a cappella vocal groups Straight No Chaser, VoicePlay, and Accent.

Elaine Chao, M.Ed is a San Francisco Bay Area-based vocalist, multi-instrumentalist, vocal percussionist, and songwriter whose career spans a cappella, contemporary worship, and classical music. She has leveraged her training in classical and choral music over the course of her contemporary performance, including in orchestras for musical theatre and in sacred spaces. In addition to music, she also is a martial artist and published author. She currently leads a product management team at a major software company dedicated to creative expression. All statements in this podcast are her own and do not reflect the opinions of her employer.

Contact us

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• Talk with us on Threads: https://www.threads.com/@themusiciansloupe

Elaine: Hey, Trist.

Elaine: What do we have this week?

Trist: Oh, what if I told you this

Trist: week's song is really classic

Trist: songwriting and performance from

Trist: the 1940s?

Elaine: Okay. I'm- sure.

Trist: But then what if I told you it's

Trist: actually a song that was written

Trist: in 2019?

Elaine: Hmm. Intriguing. Yeah. I could

Elaine: see you dropping the mic right

Elaine: there.

Elaine: Okay.

Elaine: So. So tell me more about this.

Trist: Well, this is the duet Rachael and Vilray.

Trist: Two singers, uh, Vilray sings and plays guitar.

Trist: They occasionally will have other band members, but really I

Trist: think of them as a duo.

Trist: Rachael being Rachael Price from

Trist: the outstanding band Lake Street

Trist: Dive.

Trist: They met at university and were

Trist: friends, but I don't think they

Trist: really did music until, uh, a

Trist: little later.

Trist: The this song that we have is

Trist: from their first album,

Trist: self-titled.

Elaine: Ooh. And I know that you recommended one of their later

Elaine: albums to me, and I absolutely loved it, so I can't wait to

Elaine: hear this track.

Elaine: Um, what's the name of this track?

Elaine: Tell us a little bit about this,

Elaine: and then we'll prompt people to

Elaine: pause.

Trist: Well, the name of the song is "The Laundromat Swing."

Elaine: Oh. That's hilarious.

Elaine: It's so cute.

Trist: Basically, basically, instructions for you young men

Trist: out there if you want to make a good impression on.

Trist: Well, I would say on your partner, but being from the

Trist: 1940s, it's definitely a song about making an impression on

Trist: the lady that you want to make an impression upon.

Trist: And, uh, if you want to do that,

Trist: you have to have your, uh,

Trist: wardrobe together.

Trist: You need to be clean.

Trist: You need to do the laundromat swing, as it were.

Elaine: All right, well, I can't wait to hear it.

Elaine: Uh, before we get into this, I know that you have, like, a

Elaine: regular kind of prompt for how people should be listening to

Elaine: these songs as we go about it.

Trist: Oh, absolutely.

Trist: As I mentioned, every week,

Trist: please take a moment, if you

Trist: can, to listen in the best

Trist: listening environment that you

Trist: can, whether it's putting on

Trist: those headphones that sit over

Trist: there and gather dust because

Trist: they're the nice ones and you

Trist: don't use them very often, use

Trist: those now, or you put it on the

Trist: big hi-fi in your house or in

Trist: your car.

Trist: You've got the good settings when you're not going to be

Trist: yelling at your kids or whatever, uh, and you're by

Trist: yourself and your car, whatever.

Trist: Whatever the listening

Trist: environment, if you have the

Trist: ability to make it a little

Trist: better, make it as good as you

Trist: possibly can.

Elaine: Awesome. All right.

Elaine: So we are going to put the links into the show notes.

Elaine: Please take a pause.

Elaine: Pause us.

Elaine: Go and listen to it, and come on back.

Trist: Take a listen.

Elaine: And we're back.

Elaine: Oh, wow.

Elaine: What?

Elaine: What a cute little tune there.

Elaine: I mean, so tight.

Elaine: Just a couple of minutes there.

Elaine: I'm always really surprised by

Elaine: how much you can accomplish in

Elaine: just– what is it, like, 2 minutes

Elaine: 30 seconds, something like

Elaine: that?

Trist: Yeah. I mean, it's reminiscent

Trist: again of that style of just the

Trist: really clever songwriting, you

Trist: know, and back in the day, the

Trist: kind of the style and era that

Trist: they're emulating didn't have a

Trist: lot of really long songs like

Trist: this.

Trist: There were this little quick tune.

Trist: Depression- era people didn't have time to sit around and

Trist: listen to music.

Elaine: I mean, it is kind of fascinating because thinking

Elaine: about, what, your modern pop song is, what, 4 minutes?

Elaine: Like 3 minutes 30 seconds, four minutes is pretty standard to

Elaine: have exactly that long of a song, to have something that

Elaine: feels so short but yet musically does so much?

Elaine: Yeah, I'm still like, you know, mulling over the song.

Trist: Hm. Yeah. They're just there's some of my favorites.

Trist: I've seen them in concert.

Trist: They really just are amazing.

Trist: I love the recordings and really, you know, I love the

Trist: concept that they decided they wanted to do music that sounded

Trist: like this particular era, and it would be easy to just pick from

Trist: the immense numbers of songs that there are from that period.

Trist: And it would be really cool to have a project like that.

Trist: But if you have a really clever

Trist: songwriter, and you can write

Trist: songs that sound like that era,

Trist: and still make your own residual

Trist: money off of it, uh, that's even

Trist: smarter.

Elaine: So yeah, that is pretty smart.

Trist: Commend them for that.

Trist: It's really

Elaine: cool.

Elaine: So out of all of the songs that they've done together, why did

Elaine: you choose this one?

Trist: Ah, I just it's the most clever.

Trist: It's the most compact, as you said.

Trist: It's- it's not super long.

Trist: I just think it embodies all that they do.

Trist: Like, if you hear this, you kind of know what you would get if

Trist: you went to a concert of theirs, just hearing this one song.

Trist: You get the vibe that they are very musical.

Trist: They sing really well together.

Trist: They have little places for their own stuff.

Trist: He's a very capable guitarist, soloistically as well as just,

Trist: um, just his rhythm guitar playing, accompanying them.

Trist: Yeah!

Trist: I just- Again, it's all there.

Trist: It just tells you everything you need to know about what kind of

Trist: thing they're doing.

Trist: Um, and, you know, and again, the clever lyric.

Trist: It's just- Yeah, it's just really well done.

Trist: It's really fun.

Elaine: Yeah. I mean, let's pick each

Elaine: one of those apart because I

Elaine: felt like you had a lot of

Elaine: things that I also heard in

Elaine: there.

Elaine: So the first thing is the strum pattern of the guitar.

Elaine: Like, it's so familiar.

Elaine: And you were saying 30s and 40s.

Elaine: And I went back almost all the way back to ragtime.

Elaine: I was just hearing that kind of stride piano, like, the type of

Elaine: strumming that he was doing.

Elaine: It's just so reminiscent of that time.

Elaine: So I- Yeah.

Elaine: And I was trying to, like, figure out exactly what about

Elaine: that strum pattern was so reminiscent of that time.

Elaine: It evokes something so strong within me.

Elaine: Um, do you happen to, you know, have any like, can

Elaine: you help me- In this-

Trist: In this era that they're from, in this, um, kind of what I

Trist: would consider Depression-era music and bands.

Trist: So it's an era where you had a lot of, like, vocal groups like

Trist: the Mills Brothers, you know, the original Mills Brothers,

Trist: like, they had, uh, you know, uh "Paper Doll" was their biggest

Trist: hit and that had a rhythm section came a little bit later.

Trist: But in the early years, kind of

Trist: in the Depression area, you

Trist: didn't have the money for

Trist: insurance.

Trist: You didn't have the money to hire a band.

Trist: So like they did a lot of vocalizing.

Trist: Usually the one instrument would be the guitar.

Trist: So it had to keep the rhythm.

Trist: So it's, it's doing some chords,

Trist: but it's also kind of keeping

Trist: time.

Trist: So instead of like more melodies it's chink chink chink chink.

Trist: It's like really just keeping the, the subdivisions of music.

Elaine: Yeah. And I hear that in that, like, especially since I'm a

Elaine: guitarist as well.

Elaine: Right.

Elaine: There's down- there's downstrokes, there's upstrokes,

Elaine: and I'm here like, this is one where it is down on almost every

Elaine: single stroke where it's like, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun.

Trist: He's keeping the time.

Elaine: Exactly.

Elaine: Yeah, it's fascinating for me to think about this from a

Elaine: musicality perspective and from really a rhythmic perspective.

Elaine: And also just thinking about

Elaine: what I could hear almost implied

Elaine: in that, you know, it is a

Elaine: guitar.

Elaine: But you could also see, like, a ukulele.

Elaine: Even even like a banjo.

Elaine: Like there's a certain type of Americana that I associate with

Elaine: that particular time.

Elaine: It's not exactly bluegrass, you know.

Elaine: What what kind of evolved from that same era of music.

Elaine: But I think rhythmically, it's very similar.

Elaine: Yep.

Elaine: Yeah. The other thing that I noted about the guitar was, just

Elaine: how warm it sounded, which to me says something like nylon

Elaine: strings, maybe even warmth in the way that it was recorded.

Elaine: I know that before the show, you

Elaine: were telling me a little bit

Elaine: about how they probably have

Elaine: recorded.

Elaine: Can you tell me a little bit more about that?

Trist: Yeah, it is very likely, I think, on that first album,

Trist: especially that this comes from, pretty much the whole album

Trist: sounds like it was recorded like music in that era was, you know,

Trist: one really great mic.

Trist: And then all of the balancing is done live rather than everybody

Trist: does their tracks and then it gets mixed and balanced.

Trist: You're mixing everything and balancing everything live, so if

Trist: you have a little bit of a solo or your parts a little more

Trist: important, or your voice is a little quieter there, you need

Trist: to literally step closer to the mic to do the mixing yourself.

Trist: There's really no way to blend

Trist: it if you have a take and

Trist: somebody part was too loud or

Trist: quiet, everyone has to do it all

Trist: over again.

Trist: So even the sound of this, you

Trist: can kind of hear the room that

Trist: there's a really one really

Trist: great mic, and often you would

Trist: put little tape marks on the

Trist: floor.

Trist: Oh, on my solo I step to this when I'm singing this, I do this

Trist: part or if they if on some of the other songs, if they have

Trist: some horn players or some other percussion or piano or anything

Trist: they very strategically placed in the room.

Trist: So it's all balanced.

Trist: So yeah, that's you hear a little bit of that, you hear a

Trist: little bit of the room in that kind of a recording, which is

Trist: also cool, because they could have done whatever.

Trist: But in keeping to the spirit of like, music from that era, it's

Trist: like, let's record it more similar to to that era.

Trist: So I think that's really cool.

Elaine: Yeah.

Elaine: And I think, you know, the, the

Elaine: warmth and the tone of the

Elaine: guitar is really matched with

Elaine: the warmth of the tone of the

Elaine: voices.

Elaine: And one thing I really noticed

Elaine: was how well they blend

Elaine: together.

Elaine: And just like their voices have

Elaine: such a warm tone like both of

Elaine: them have a very warm tone to

Elaine: their voices.

Elaine: And it sounds very it sounds very homey, I guess, is what

Elaine: I'm, I'm thinking about.

Elaine: Can you talk a little bit more about, like, how you see their

Elaine: blend really fitting together?

Trist: Uh, yeah.

Trist: I mean, just just being really

Trist: consummate musicians, always

Trist: listening.

Trist: her sound isn't terribly

Trist: different from other things that

Trist: I've heard her sing, but it- it

Trist: changes just slightly due to the

Trist: style of the music and singing

Trist: with this other particular

Trist: musical partner.

Trist: So I hear her adapt a bit.

Trist: Also, you know, within the arrangement, they might, each

Trist: have a little solo bits where they sing the thing, but then

Trist: boom, you're right.

Trist: When when they're together, they're just like one.

Trist: They're one unit.

Trist: They're just good at it.

Trist: I think they've done it enough that they really, they really

Trist: blend together well.

Elaine: And I think there's also, though, like one that you and I

Elaine: both come from a cappella, There's a band that both of us

Elaine: know who- You know, I went to one of the reunion concerts a

Elaine: few years ago, and I heard them over, various eras and like the

Elaine: voices and the blends.

Elaine: And I realized that for some of the eras of this band, it just

Elaine: worked really, really well.

Elaine: And they really locked in

Elaine: together because of specific

Elaine: voices.

Elaine: And there are other areas where, you know, it kind of split where

Elaine: some of them were a little bit more fluty in some ways, you

Elaine: know, like, um, I don't know how I'd better describe those

Elaine: voices, whereas others were more brassy or more, uh, piercing

Elaine: voices that kind of, like, fit together in a blend.

Elaine: And it wasn't until, like, I

Elaine: heard someone else in there that

Elaine: had, um, a different tone in

Elaine: there that kind of mixed the

Elaine: both of them that they all

Elaine: locked in together again from,

Elaine: like a voice quality

Elaine: perspective.

Elaine: Especially in the smaller group singing perspective, um, it just

Elaine: seems like the quality of the voice, like the natural timbre

Elaine: of the voice is something that you're listening to to make sure

Elaine: that that blend really happens from that natural position.

Elaine: Because I guess I get a sense that when you're looking at a

Elaine: quality of a voice, it seems to me that it matters less when

Elaine: it's a choir, because all the voices in one particular part

Elaine: blend together, and that average gives you a sense of, you know

Elaine: what the entire choir sounds like, which is why a gospel

Elaine: choir might sound slightly differently than like a

Elaine: traditional choral choir.

Elaine: And, uh, I'm kind of curious about how you see things, you

Elaine: know, having sung in so many small groups like you've

Elaine: contracted, you've worked in a lot of different small groups.

Elaine: How do you see those voices fitting together as kind of like

Elaine: a natural thing versus something that is, learned?

Elaine: Right?

Elaine: Is it like, trained and learned

Elaine: versus something that you

Elaine: audition for?

Trist: Well, it's both kind of you really hit on it.

Trist: There are voices that just

Trist: naturally sound great together,

Trist: which is why frequently, you

Trist: know, any of the, like, relative

Trist: groups, like when there are

Trist: groups of brothers or sisters or

Trist: just a family of singers,

Trist: sometimes that blend is just

Trist: like, oh man, that's just not

Trist: fair.

Elaine: Yeah, like you could

Trist: work your whole life

Elaine: singing with amazing

Trist: singers and you just never going to sound like that because

Trist: they're just, oh, you're all cousins, brothers, uncles, etc..

Trist: Um, you hear that in those kinds of groups, especially live, uh,

Trist: just when they're right in front of you in person, it's just

Trist: like, oh my goodness.

Trist: Uh, whenever you hear those, those relative groups.

Trist: So there's that.

Trist: But then there's just voices

Trist: that naturally sound good

Trist: together.

Trist: And so when you're putting together a group, you'll look

Trist: for those things.

Trist: And sometimes though, it's like, oh no, there's these other

Trist: things that I need musically from this particular singer.

Trist: And then the thing that's like the- the thing that doesn't fit

Trist: as much maybe, is their sound, but they provide so many other

Trist: musical things that you have them in your group anyway, then

Trist: you just then rely on, since you now didn't rely on the natural

Trist: blend, then you really rely on the learned skills, the learned

Trist: sound, the learned ability for singers to make themselves fit.

Trist: So unfortunately, you then have to just work a lot harder.

Trist: And frankly, it's not quite as fun because it's more fun when

Trist: you can just kind of sing naturally and everybody sounds

Trist: like you and you all blend together really well.

Trist: Or you get used to what you have

Trist: to do to blend with certain

Trist: people.

Trist: And then, oh, I've added these other two voices that do this.

Trist: Okay.

Trist: Now everybody needs to work their antennas up.

Trist: You have to work a little harder to match each other.

Trist: Um, so you're thinking about

Trist: that, and any energy you're

Trist: spending on that is taking away

Trist: from your time or your

Trist: intonation or your whatever

Trist: else.

Trist: It's this is all little micro-work that your voice and

Trist: your brain are doing when you're when you're singing.

Trist: So neither of them are necessarily better than another.

Trist: I mean, they can all they can all function.

Trist: It just takes different kinds of work and different planning.

Trist: And different, uh, I guess focus

Trist: then the key to all of it is

Trist: understanding.

Trist: All of that understanding.

Trist: Oh, this really bright voice in our warm group.

Trist: Okay.

Trist: They bring this to the group because they did that and that

Trist: and that and that.

Trist: But wow, when we sing, when we

Trist: talk about our tone and our

Trist: timbre, we really all have to

Trist: adjust.

Trist: That singer needs to adjust to

Trist: us and we need to adjust to them

Trist: more.

Trist: So now we have a group sound that's a little bit more, even

Trist: more work to do.

Elaine: Yeah. And going back to the

Elaine: song, that's what impressed me

Elaine: the most about Rachael and

Elaine: Vilray is that the intonation is

Elaine: so matched, and it's also very

Elaine: 40s in the way that they're

Elaine: pronouncing words.

Elaine: It's a very, um, Midwestern.

Elaine: And going back to what you were

Elaine: saying about families, that

Elaine: might be part of the reason why

Elaine: families match together, because

Elaine: your pronunciation of words just

Elaine: kind of all merged together as

Elaine: you spend more and more time

Elaine: together.

Elaine: Right?

Elaine: And think about people from

Elaine: different parts of the United

Elaine: States, they pronounce words

Elaine: differently.

Elaine: And if you're not trained in

Elaine: that way, like the way that

Elaine: those of us have choir

Elaine: backgrounds, you know, you're

Elaine: trained in the, Italian

Elaine: pronunciation of this Latin

Elaine: thing or like the German

Elaine: pronunciation.

Elaine: And, if you don't necessarily have all of that, um, you have

Elaine: to think much harder about that intonation and matching the

Elaine: vowels, because otherwise you sound like you're out of tune.

Elaine: Right?

Elaine: Yeah. So I love that.

Elaine: That's fascinating.

Trist: I love that about music from that era.

Trist: They have a lot of tunes that kind of in groups that do that.

Trist: And in that era, a lot of there

Trist: are a lot of different songs,

Trist: but there's a little

Trist: classification of songs that are

Trist: they're "mouthfuls."

Trist: So that's a "mouthful."

Trist: That one is like lots of those clever, uh, songs, especially as

Trist: the aforementioned like Mills Brothers, etc. groups like that

Trist: would do those songs.

Trist: Lots of little tricky wordplay where there's just a bunch of

Trist: words going on.

Trist: Um, you know, and sometimes you can hardly tell what they are.

Trist: And it's like, it sounds like they're singing different words

Trist: than they really are, etc. They'll just- Oh, yeah.

Trist: This one is a "mouthful."

Elaine: Yeah.

Elaine: Well, this song is very, very clever.

Elaine: And, you know, just taking a look at the lyrics, um, you were

Elaine: talking about how they, how Vilray wrote this song And how

Elaine: it was just so clever.

Elaine: I'm just thinking about all of

Elaine: these words and how they sound

Elaine: like.

Elaine: They sound like they come right

Elaine: from the 1940s, the type of

Elaine: slang.

Elaine: It's a very, very tight song, but it's also very lighthearted.

Elaine: I love listening to the topic because it isn't, you know, like

Elaine: your typical love song.

Elaine: It is something about just something.

Elaine: Yeah.

Elaine: It is one of those things.

Elaine: Yeah, and it is.

Elaine: It's not only trivial, it is something that is so relatable.

Elaine: Right?

Elaine: Because all of us have been in

Elaine: these first situations before,

Elaine: right?

Elaine: Where someone's giving you advice and this advice is just,

Elaine: you know, similar to what you would tell a thirteen year old.

Elaine: It's light hearted.

Elaine: And in some ways it it's a little bit nostalgic.

Elaine: But I think that, you know, part of the nostalgia is just the

Elaine: innocence of the topic because it is thinking about this very

Elaine: relatable, older to younger kind of, um, conversation.

Elaine: Yeah.

Trist: Well, even the words that are chosen take your baby to the

Trist: dance and spot, and we, you know, go buy some flowers.

Trist: But no, you buy it from the flower boy.

Trist: You buy the flower boy out of his whole crop.

Trist: So even just the, the vernacular, the, the kind of,

Trist: uh, the, the timeliness of, of the lyric choices are perfect.

Elaine: Right?

Elaine: And the starch around the collar.

Elaine: Yeah.

Elaine: Like how many people actually use starch nowadays?

Trist: Oh yeah.

Trist: Right.

Elaine: Yep. Who irons?

Elaine: Yeah.

Trist: Exactly, exactly.

Trist: It's wonderful.

Elaine: Well, any last thoughts about this?

Trist: Um, no, it's just great.

Trist: I just love it.

Trist: It's just a fun.

Trist: Listen, um, as many of our songs

Trist: here on The Musician's Loupe,

Trist: sometimes it's just not that

Trist: deep.

Trist: It's just clever.

Trist: It's really fun.

Trist: I chose this one because I just

Trist: want people to know it exists

Trist: and that they are amazing

Trist: musicians doing music from

Trist: another time.

Trist: But doing it today.

Elaine: Yeah. And I mean there from the musicianship perspective.

Elaine: Excellent.

Elaine: Absolutely excellent.

Elaine: We didn't actually talk about the last little part where it

Elaine: speeds up and it just goes, you know, from this already.

Elaine: It is challenging to sing.

Elaine: It's pretty

Trist: brisk already.

Elaine: Right.

Elaine: It's a brisk song, but the notes are very close together.

Elaine: It is musically a very challenging thing and then they

Elaine: just speed it on up and it's just like, okay, wow.

Trist: Also very also very also very

Trist: reminiscent of that of that

Trist: time.

Trist: It's like a little showpiece.

Trist: It's kind of like, okay, um, you know, I would imagine that kind

Trist: of thing might be, you know, it's going to be the closer it's

Trist: going to be the encore of the song come out.

Trist: And it's kind of it's already

Trist: kind of faster than most of the

Trist: tunes.

Trist: And then it's like, okay, you like that?

Trist: Well, here we go, doing a little couple clicks faster, you know?

Trist: So it's pretty great.

Elaine: Wow. Love it.

Elaine: Yeah. I mean it's kind for me

Elaine: it's- it's kind of like a tongue

Elaine: twister already.

Elaine: And then it just gets faster and I'm like, I can already not do

Elaine: the tongue twister.

Elaine: Right?

Elaine: And it just gets, you know, all of the notes get faster.

Elaine: The jumps are harder.

Elaine: Like the vocal- It just becomes more and more impressive the

Elaine: longer you listen to it.

Trist: It has a great effect again as a showpiece because you're already

Trist: going, oh, okay.

Trist: You know.

Trist: And if most of the songs are just a couple clicks slower than

Trist: that from where it even started and you're listening to like,

Trist: you already think, oh, this is the fast one.

Trist: And then it's like, okay, you thought that was cool.

Trist: Here's one little tag at the end where you're going to spit it

Trist: out even faster, you know, very, very reminiscent of of music

Trist: performances from that period.

Elaine: Ugh,

Elaine: so much fun.

Elaine: Well, thanks for suggesting this.

Elaine: And, uh, so before we end, we're

Elaine: going to move on to our next

Elaine: section, which is mailbag, the

Elaine: mailbag.

Elaine: Mailbag.

Elaine: All right, so for our mailbag

Elaine: this time I did not source from

Elaine: threads I instead sourced from a

Elaine: book.

Elaine: So yeah okay.

Elaine: So this book is written by someone who writes for the

Elaine: Harvard Business Review.

Elaine: It's written from a very

Elaine: business oriented perspective,

Elaine: and the title of this book is

Elaine: "There's Nothing Like This: The

Elaine: Strategic Genius of Taylor

Elaine: Swift."

Elaine: Oh.

Trist: Okay.

Elaine: Yeah. it's a pretty recent book, and it was a part of a business

Elaine: list that I was reading about.

Elaine: So I added it to my library book list and checked it out.

Elaine: I'm midway through the book right now, but I've been

Elaine: highlighting pieces of it.

Elaine: I wanted to bring it in.

Elaine: So are you ready for this quote?

Elaine: I'm ready.

Elaine: Okay. "Many creatives, whether they're singers or writers or

Elaine: computer engineers, mistakenly think their product can stand on

Elaine: its own merits.

Elaine: If you build it and it's good, they will come.

Elaine: But that's not how it works.

Elaine: The most successful startups, the artists who truly break

Elaine: through, sell their product, build their brand."

Elaine: So I'm just throwing this out here.

Elaine: I'm wondering how much you agree or disagree with this statement.

Elaine: Oh.

Trist: Well, I mean, like everything, it always it depends.

Trist: I don't think there's a I mean,

Trist: there isn't a real answer for

Trist: that because then everyone would

Trist: do it.

Trist: my initial thought was like

Trist: against that was was negative

Trist: was like uh, as you were talking

Trist: about that, um, you know, if

Trist: it's good.

Trist: Yeah.

Trist: I that's, that's part of my just

Trist: thought through all of the music

Trist: industry changes and, uh,

Trist: introduction of AI and all the

Trist: places we are in terms of trying

Trist: to find an audience, uh, etc.

Trist: it's like, if it's good, it will

Trist: eventually break through,

Trist: however.

Trist: So I do believe that, but it's

Trist: there's a whole bunch of really

Trist: good music that never gets to

Trist: people.

Trist: There's a whole lot of really great musicians that you just

Trist: have that story about that band or that artist that you love,

Trist: that made an album that really didn't get promoted well, didn't

Trist: get enough backing the artist, didn't really tour it enough.

Trist: Man, it's a great album and it's, you know, gets through my

Trist: circle, but just for whatever reason didn't get.

Trist: So I guess both I don't know,

Trist: I'm it's I'm wishy-washy that

Trist: way.

Trist: But I think both of those are- are true factors.

Trist: I think unfortunately you can have one without the other.

Trist: I think you can have either independently, but boy, together

Trist: they're a much better force.

Trist: You can have this amazing thing

Trist: and not have the best plan

Trist: behind you.

Trist: And sometimes it's just so good that it just finds its way

Trist: anyway and has the one little break that helps it happen.

Trist: Um, but a whole force, a whole team, a whole, you know, a whole

Trist: bunch more working for it, definitely helps a lot.

Trist: The artist that tours it more,

Trist: that just goes out and works it

Trist: more.

Trist: Yeah.

Trist: Not just I'm going to record

Trist: this one song, put it on a place

Trist: and then just hope that people

Trist: find it.

Trist: It's like, well, yeah, of course that's not going to work as well

Trist: as someone who puts the stuff together and then goes and tours

Trist: it and fights for themselves and fights against their own

Trist: management and their own labels and their own whatever, and

Trist: tries to get out to clubs and, you know, works their thing as

Trist: much as they can.

Trist: Of course that's better.

Trist: and also there's some music

Trist: that's just not, I don't know,

Trist: to me, just isn't really all

Trist: that great.

Trist: But because they've done so much

Trist: work and they've done so it's-

Trist: it's good enough and with enough

Trist: work, with enough, with enough

Trist: of the right breaks, enough out

Trist: there, working it, peddling it,

Trist: selling something else, like

Trist: selling your live performance of

Trist: it that might be better than the

Trist: music itself helps the whole

Trist: package.

Trist: That's a rambling answer.

Trist: But yeah, a little bit of both of those things, I think.

Trist: I don't think it's as hard and fast as that, as the as the

Trist: opening statement puts it.

Elaine: Yeah, I mean, this is something that I had to think about and

Elaine: very similar to you because, you know, you and I started out in

Elaine: very similar circles where there are a lot of talented musicians

Elaine: that we both know who didn't make it to the level of like,

Elaine: you know, breakthrough because they just they either didn't

Elaine: have the time or they didn't have the marketing, or it was

Elaine: such a niche type of, um, music that a cappella is.

Elaine: And I think that's something

Elaine: that is, I don't know if I call

Elaine: it disappointing as much as it

Elaine: is.

Elaine: You know, I'm still grappling through the relationship between

Elaine: music and any kind of marketing or any, any creative industry in

Elaine: the marketing that goes behind it, you know, as, as an author,

Elaine: that's something that you know, the author or the Book Threads

Elaine: community or the BookTok community is grappling with.

Elaine: Right?

Elaine: Like how do you sell something

Elaine: or go mainstream if you don't

Elaine: have that level of marketing

Elaine: your own personal

Elaine: self-promotional marketing?

Elaine: And it's to the point where some

Elaine: of these bigger labels or book

Elaine: houses won't even consider you

Elaine: if you don't have an existing

Elaine: following.

Elaine: So I think that there is

Elaine: something about that where we

Elaine: have to think about just the

Elaine: quality of the content is not

Elaine: sufficient.

Elaine: You do need some kind of

Elaine: marketing behind it, whether

Elaine: it's word of mouth or it's, you

Elaine: know, you're performing and like

Elaine: gaining a certain type of

Elaine: momentum with that, or you're

Elaine: publishing things on social

Elaine: media.

Elaine: And I think, you know, you and I

Elaine: had this conversation recently

Elaine: where social media has really

Elaine: changed what that looks like,

Elaine: right?

Elaine: Changed what penetration and

Elaine: what kind of audiences you have

Elaine: access to.

Elaine: When we first got started, we didn't have social media.

Elaine: You basically had word of mouth.

Elaine: You had, you know, people telling people telling people

Elaine: that this band was awesome and you needed to check them out.

Elaine: But then I think about, um, there's like bands like, OK Go

Elaine: who really, I think made their break because of a really cool

Elaine: concept for a music video that they had, I don't know, like ten

Elaine: years ago or something.

Elaine: And every single thing that

Elaine: they've done has just been

Elaine: visually stunning.

Elaine: And people go onto YouTube and look for them and it goes viral

Elaine: and they, you know, people hear their song and they hear their

Elaine: music and they're like, oh, I really like this group.

Elaine: Or you have a group like I think is a group called Pomplamoose,

Elaine: Is that right?

Elaine: Yeah.

Elaine: Yeah, yeah.

Elaine: Where, um, they just have, you know, this, this huge out

Elaine: swelling their fan base is really what makes them able to

Elaine: be indie artists.

Elaine: Right?

Elaine: And whether it's Patreon or going, you know, going to their,

Elaine: their shows, it's just one of those things where you have to

Elaine: really think about how much you're investing into your

Elaine: community in order to be able to reap the rewards and be able to

Elaine: work, um, you know, as, as a band for your music.

Elaine: Now, of course, there's other

Elaine: stuff where it's just like,

Elaine: yeah, you know, it's whoever,

Elaine: you know.

Elaine: And if you're an indie, like if you're just a musician playing

Elaine: sessions or whatnot, it seems to me is less about the audience

Elaine: and more about the other players and the people who are booking

Elaine: who, um, bring you into some kind of a gig, right?

Elaine: So, I don't know, I just wanted to throw that out there to see

Elaine: if things are really that dire.

Trist: Yeah, I guess the more, the more

Trist: we're talking about, I guess

Trist: that's that's closer to the

Trist: truth.

Trist: It's closer to a true statement than at first hit me.

Trist: Because, yeah.

Trist: there has to be some kind of- You don't just- I don't record a

Trist: song on my computer.

Trist: And if I don't even put it,

Trist: like, online or play it for

Trist: anyone, well, then, yeah, of

Trist: course it's not going to go

Trist: anywhere if I don't at least do

Trist: that.

Trist: I was kind of talking about doing the bare minimum of

Trist: distribution of, of placement of at least, at least posting

Trist: somewhere, uh, that someone could hear it and having it take

Trist: off while that's rare.

Trist: yeah.

Trist: You almost always need a team.

Trist: So when the original statement says that's not how it works,

Trist: uh, that that it is pretty true.

Trist: There are a lot of truth to that.

Trist: It's not just like, well, I made this great song.

Trist: What else do I need to do?

Trist: Well, yeah, that's very true, that at least something has to

Trist: be done there.

Trist: It just then the amount, the amount that needs to be done or

Trist: is chosen to be done or the luck that you get or don't, then that

Trist: that all varies.

Trist: But as long as there's some kind

Trist: of a team helping you put it out

Trist: there.

Trist: If it's really good, it's going to take off.

Trist: If you have the team that can that can put put it out there.

Elaine: Well, if nothing else, it reminds us that as musicians, we

Elaine: constantly need to be working on marketing and working on, you

Elaine: know, our relationship building.

Elaine: And I think that's part of the beauty of music, really is like

Elaine: how many relationships you do get to build as a part of, you

Elaine: know, working or participating in the music industry?

Trist: Indeed.

Elaine: Awesome.

Elaine: Well, if you have additional questions or if you have

Elaine: feedback, please do email us or catch us on our Instagram.

Elaine: Feel free to send us a DM.

Elaine: It's the musicians loupe L O U P E

Elaine: at gmail.com or on Instagram at

Elaine: @themusiciansloupe. So

Elaine: with that, we will see you next week. Thanks

Elaine: for joining us today. Don't

Elaine: forget to let your friends know that we exist. please

Elaine: be a part of our marketing team. We

Elaine: would love to have other people listening along and participating

Elaine: in our community.

Trist: Yeah, yeah.

Trist: Like, review, and subscribe.

Trist: Thank you.

Elaine: All right.

Elaine: See you next time.

Trist: Ready.

Elaine: No.

Trist: And I'll give you two guesses who didn't press record.

Trist: That'd be me.

Trist: Hold on.

Trist: Sorry.

Trist: Hold, please.

Elaine: It's okay.

Elaine: I wasted twenty minutes of your time to begin with, so.

Trist: Like, I can't think there are three sirens now.

Trist: Like, literally something is happening.

Trist: Except

Elaine: It's a good thing we're editing.

Trist: Except for the thing that Elaine still has to say.

Elaine: What do I still need to say?

Trist: I don't.

Elaine: Know.