Join us for an engaging conversation with New York Times bestselling author John Feinstein as he discusses his latest book, "The Ancient Eight," which delves into the world of Ivy League football. Feinstein shares his unique insights and experiences from the 2023 football season, highlighting the passion and dedication of the student-athletes who play for these prestigious institutions. The discussion touches on the tragic story of Dartmouth coach Buddy Teevens, whose unexpected passing profoundly impacted the league and its players. Feinstein also explores the rich history of Ivy League football, emphasizing the enduring rivalries and the academic commitment of the athletes. This episode not only celebrates the sport but also honors the personal stories that make college football a unique and compelling experience.

THE ANCIENT EIGHT: College Football’s Ivy League and the Game They Play Today By John Feinstein via Hachette Books. Mr. Feinstein is an award-winning, bestselling author, who takes the reader through a year inside the legendary Ivy League Football,

unveiling the heart and soul of college football’s oldest teams as they compete amidst a rapidly changing collegiate sports world.

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You're just in time for a great episode tonight where we get to talk to a New York Times bestseller, an author who wrote a book on the Ivy League.

It's the Ancient Eight with John Feinstein.

And John's up in just a moment to tell us all about his latest book.

This is the Pigskin Daily History Dispatch, a podcast that covers the anniversaries of American football events throughout history.

Your host, Darren Hays is podcasting from America's North Shore to bring you the memories of the gridiron one day at a time.

Hello, my football friends.

This is Darren Hayes of pigskin dispatch.com welcome once again to the Pig Pen, your portal to positive football history.

And welcome to another edition where we get to talk to an author.

And this author is quite an accomplished writer.

He's quite an accomplished author.

I don't know if I've ever spoke to anybody that's wrote 45 books on sports and well accomplished because he has a couple New York Times bestsellers, some of these books.

And we're going to be talking about football from where football originated and sort of a little bit different twist to it.

His name is John Feinstein.

John, welcome to the Pig Pen, Darren.

Thanks for having me.

Appreciate it.

Yeah, I appreciate too.

Why don't we start off, let's give the title of your book and where folks can get a copy of it.

Well, the title of the new book is the Ancient Eight.

It's about Ivy League football, focusing mostly on last season, but also about the history, as you mentioned, which is remarkable.

You can get it anywhere.

Bookstores, Amazon.com barnesandnoble.com and if you're an independent bookstore fan, like I am at any independent bookstore.

All right, that's excellent.

Now I'm going to start off with my first question to you, but I have an admission to make to set it up here.

So excuse me for being a little bit long winded here now when I, I've been sort of being picky and choosy.

I've got a couple projects, a couple books of my own that have come out here recently that I've been trying to wrap up and get promoted here.

So I'm sort of it easy this football season.

But I saw your, your title come across from your publicist and I said that's kind of interesting.

And I just read the title.

I didn't really read what it was about.

And I'm a big football history buff and we talk quite a bit about football history.

And I saw the Ancient Eight and saw it was you know, about the Ivy League.

I'm like, oh, this is, this is tremendous.

Well, you, you got me into the story and you did what every good writer does, is you hooked me right in the beginning, sort of with the tragedy, which we'll, we'll talk sort of in the beginning here in our conversation, you hooked me and I stuck.

Reading is one of those books I couldn't put down until I finished.

I read it in just a few days and I appreciated it and I appreciated what you did to, to reel me in.

Maybe not your, your average reader that would read that book on modern football history, but you really brought me into it, so I appreciate that.

So thank you.

But what was your, your interest in writing on this subject?

Well, it goes way back.

As I mentioned in the introduction, I grew up in New York City and used to ride the number one train up to Baker Field on the tip of Manhattan and watched Columbia football.

Columbia wasn't any good in football back then, but you could pay four bucks and sit on the 40 yard line and see very good football.

And so I've been an Ivy League football fan since I was about 10 years old, to be honest.

And when I left New York to go to college and into the Washington Post, I continued to follow the Ivy League in both football and basketball and loved to write stories in the Post about Ivy League athletes because with, without stereotyping, you don't meet a lot of them who aren't real bright and articulate and able to tell stories.

So I always enjoyed doing that.

And about 20 years ago I did a book called the Last Amateurs, which was about Patriot League basketball.

None of those kids played in the pros, but they had stories to tell.

One of the things I learned when I was at the Post, I was a night police reporter and worked for Bob Woodward.

And one of the things Bob told taught me was you don't have to be rich and famous to have a story to tell.

Most athletes have back stories, have good stories about how they got to be who they became, whether they were NFL superstars or whether they were Ivy League football players.

And I suggested to my editor about a year and a half ago now that I do a book on Ivy League football.

And he loved the idea.

He had read the Last Amateurs.

He read my book on Army, Navy, A Civil War.

Again, none of those guys played in the NFL, but they had wonderful stories to tell.

So he said, let's go ahead and do it.

And this book is the result of that.

Yeah, it was really interesting the way that you did you told the story and you.

Not to.

Not to ruin anything for the readers, but you.

And it was really quite invigorating to read.

Like I said, it really encapsulated the football season and made me appreciate what was going on.

Well, I appreciate you saying that the access that the coaches and the players were willing to give me made.

Made the story, allowed me to write the book the way I did from inside.

That's what I like to do.

I like to go places where most readers haven't been or don't have the opportunity to go and take them there.

I started doing that when I wrote A Season on the brink 38 years ago because of the access.

Bob Knight allowed me to his Indiana locker room.

And the Ivy League coaches were exactly the same.

I had total access.

I was in the locker rooms during games, before games, after games, I was in team meetings.

And again, not surprisingly, the kids were Wonderful.

I interviewed 82 players from the eight schools and I can honestly say every interview was good.

I came away from each interview and I got to write about this guy.

I couldn't because of space limitations, but I certainly could have given the quality of the interviews.

Yeah, it was great.

And of course, you're talking to some of the smartest college bound human beings there are in the world here with these Ivy League folks.

And you know, you.

We said earlier that you sort of started off with a tragedy that was sort of the hook and an overtone throughout the book.

Maybe you could describe what the setting is in the beginning.

Well, when I first came up with the idea, one of the first people I talked to was Buddy Teivens, the coach at Dartmouth, who I'd known for years and who I'd written about and who was always great to me.

And we had a long talk about the book idea and he was very enthusiastic.

In fact, I still have an email he sent me after that conversation saying how much he was looking forward to Dartmouth being part of the book.

Two weeks after that conversation, Buddy was riding his bike in Florida across Highway A1A and he was hit by a truck.

And the injuries turned out to be fatal.

He lived for another six months, but he never got out of the hospital and he died on the Tuesday before Dartmouth's home opener in September.

And I was in the locker room that Saturday.

And I can honestly tell you that the talk Sammy McCorkle, who was then the acting coach, is now the full time coach gave to his players.

I.

I still get chills just thinking about being in that locker room and listening to Sammy and the players that day.

And clearly Buddy's death was.

Was beyond tragic.

Tim Murphy, the Harvard coach, was his best friend in life since they were 12 years old, growing up in the same town and outside of Boston.

And Tim was devastated, clearly.

I mean, everybody was.

But Tim had known Buddy longer and better than anybody and visited him in the hospital when he was eventually moved to Boston.

He actually visited him in the hospital the day afterwards in Florida because he and his wife were down there.

And they drove five hours to get to the Mayo Clinic to see Buddy after the accident took place.

And that's very much a part of the story.

Tim Murphy's last year at Harvard, how he dealt with his best friend's death, how the players dealt with their coaches best friend's death, how the Dartmouth players dealt with the whole thing.

And remarkably, after being picked six in the league, even before Buddy's accident, Dartmouth ended up tying for the league championship with Harvard and Yale.

Amazing story that they were able to do that and that Sammy McCorkle was able to keep the program together the way he did.

Yeah, I mean, that was the tragedy and the overtone and how the folks reacted to it and respected Coach Tevens and, you know, just the respect from all the coaches and the players from out, you know, even, you know, these are the rivals, these are the guys that they play and bitter enemies from, you know, the 19th century against.

And these guys had such respect, you know, not only Coach Murphy, but all the coaches and the players that you referenced in there and interviewed.

It was tremendous and it sort of gives a great insight and something maybe we don't appreciate.

You know, I think I speak for John Q.

Public.

For football fans.

We're, you know, mainstream NFL and FBS football and maybe our local teams.

I don't, I'm not near, I'm in Pennsylvania, but I'm the furthest point from Philadelphia.

I'm in Erie, Pennsylvania, far corner.

That's a long ways off.

Yeah, right, right.

So I don't get to appreciate or see a lot of games even on TV of, Of the Ivy League, because usually when they're on, there's probably, you know, a big SEC game or Big Ten game one that sort of, you know, the shiny object that gets my attention and I watch, you know, that's my own fault.

I should be watching more of that, but you made me appreciate it more of what this Little League, this Ivy League is today.

And maybe you could explain a little bit about why it's so unique.

Well, as you know, the Ivy League is known first for academics.

And with all the upheaval in college athletics and all the realignment and trying to keep track of where teams are playing or where kids are playing because of the transfer portal, the Ivy League's a throwback that they'll never change.

The schools in the league, the kids do not transfer.

I mean, 99% of them do not transfer.

You go to an Ivy League school, you realize you're fortunate to be at an Ivy League school.

It's very hard to play football and keep up with your academics at an Ivy League school.

But these kids graduate and usually they go on to do things well beyond football.

Although people don't understand the Ivy league typically has 12 to 15 players in the NFL in a given year because there are some very good players in the Ivy League.

And one of the reasons I wanted to do the book, Darren, was because it's a.

The league's a throwback.

It isn't.

It's like it was in the 50s and 60s and 70s and so on.

It hasn't changed.

And there are no nils.

There are very few transfers.

They play 10 games in 10 weeks.

The presidents, which I disagree with, don't allow the football champion to play in the FCS playoffs.

I think they should.

They do now have a Friday night package of ESPN games which you should take a look at next season.

And Yale, Harvard will be on Saturday, November 23rd.

And there's so much history in the Ivy League, as I said, going back to the 19th century, the intensity of the rivalries, believe me, having been on the sidelines all of last year, you could go to any football sideline, whether it's Oregon or Michigan or Notre Dame or Alabama.

And I trust me, the intensity will not be any greater than on an Ivy League sideline because the kids love football and they're playing, most of them will not play in the NFL.

They're playing Football, because they love football.

They don't get any else.

They give up a lot of their time all year round like other big time programs to be ready to play their 10 games.

And so it was, it was a great experience for me.

As I said, I interviewed 82 kids.

They were all terrific.

The coaches were terrific.

And I hope this book will become a bestseller like the Last Amateurs did, like a Civil War did.

Even though it does not involve famous athletes.

It involves athletes.

But even if it doesn't, I'll be glad I did the book because I had a great time doing.

Well, I'm sure you did, because not only are you talking about this league that's got its uniqueness and you had this tragedy that, you know, sets the tone for it, but you had, you know, like I think you alluded to earlier, it's a historic season.

You have a three way tie for first place in this and with no championship game.

And it's, it's just unfortunate, right?

Yeah, it is unfortunate.

But you know, what, what a way to end.

Well, your story doesn't end there, but what a way to have it be sort of at the climactic point of your, your story.

And it's, you know, the Harvard Yale game, which is such an iconic game in itself.

And it is iconic and it sells out every year.

So talk about being historic.

But you're right.

And the Dartmouth story was obviously tragic, but it ended up being uplifting in the end because of what the players and coaches were able to achieve after the tragedy.

Yeah, just.

But just phenomenal.

I loved how, you know, like you said, you talk from the inside out of the locker rooms and the players and everything and getting their perspective.

So that really kept me engrossed.

And I was a little bit worried, you know, getting in the beginning, I'm like, boy, there's a lot of names that are coming at me here, you know, 100 miles an hour.

Am I going to, am I going to follow this?

But you put it in a way that you made a very understanding, very.

It flowed very well.

The story did.

And you, you're, you're telling me as a reader where we're going, hey, we're, we're jumping to this game now and at the same time across the state as this game.

And I really appreciate it.

And going through that, you know, that whole season.

Well, as I said, I interviewed 82 kids and they all had stories to tell.

But I had to make decisions because I didn't want you trying to keep up with 82 names plus the eight coaches, plus assistant coaches.

And that probably the hardest part of the process of writing the book was deciding what not to write because there was.

I could write a second book without doing any more research because I had so many stories to tell.

Now what do you think is maybe the most surprising thing to you in the story?

Because you're very familiar with the Ivy League and it's being going to games.

Since you were a kid, what was the most surprising thing you got out of your research for this book?

Probably.

Probably the passion.

I knew that the kids cared about football.

I knew it was important in their lives.

But the passion that they all brought to the practice field, to the, to the locker room, to the sidelines, to the games themselves.

I could feel it standing on the sidelines.

You know, there were a couple times when something would happen good on whichever sideline I was, I was standing on and kid would grab me and kind of hug me from behind because by then they were familiar with me and they were all so fired up about every game that they played.

And I think the kid who maybe sums it up best is a kid named Jalen Travis who went to Princeton, had a 3.71 GPA, he'll play in the NFL next year.

He's 67 and 315 pounds.

And believe me, he's been scouted.

He's at Iowa State as a grad student now because he got hurt last year and didn't get to play the whole season.

But Jalen Travis grew up In Minneapolis, about 10 blocks from where George Floyd was murdered.

And after the murder, he was in high school.

He and a buddy of his started a foundation to raise money to get inner city kids the chance to get enough education to go to college.

Now think about this.

This is two 18 year old kids putting this whole thing together.

And he made a comment to me that when he decided to go to Princeton, his brother went to Yale.

Really dumb family, right?

I'm sorry, he went to Harvard.

Excuse me.

It's pretty much the same thing.

But he decided that he was going to go someplace where he knew he would have two full time jobs playing football and getting his degree, which he did.

As I said, 3.71 GPA.

That's what Ivy League kids do.

They make that conscious decision to go to a place where it's going to be harder academically because you're going to be expected to graduate, because graduation is going to be important, your major is going to be important.

Whether you go to law school, med school, you know, Wall street, whatever it might be, they all work at it and yet they are very passionate about their football.

Yeah, you.

That's definitely comes out through your story and I can tell just by reading it and talking here today that your passion, it's caught on to you too, and it's definitely evident in your work.

So that's, that's sign a great writing.

So much, much appreciated there.

Now, I told you earlier, you know, you know, I maybe didn't, I dismissed it too early that you didn't have history in a book.

You come out like chapter 13 or 14 somewhere in that, near the, you know, the back third of the book, you start.

Then you start hitting me with the history of the Ivy League and really the beginnings of college football history itself, of the beginnings of football history for in America.

So maybe you could talk a little bit about that.

What got you excited about that?

Well, you know, what was interesting is when I decided to do the book, there had been books written on the history of the Ivy League because it goes back so far and because it's so important in the history of college football.

And I wanted to write a book that was different, that would be fresh and that people would not have already had a chance to read.

But obviously you can't write about the Ivy League without talking about the history and how the rivalries began in the 19th century.

All the teams were playing by the turn of the 20th century, not the 21st century.

And the games got so violent late in the 19th century that for two years, for example, Harvard and Yale didn't play because the presidents were afraid of kids getting hurt.

And there were also fights in the stands and outside the stadiums because it was so violent.

And that's when they made some adjustments to make it less rugby like.

And then the Ivy League brought in the forward pass and nothing changed football more than the forward pass because it may again, it made it less violent.

It also made it more, a lot more fun to watch the games, as we know from today's game, because guys have had passing the ball all the time.

I didn't cover that game.

But the point is, they said, we want to make sure that we're still on firm ground academically with all our sports, including football.

And so they formed the Ivy league, the Ancient 8, and said, we're not going to sell our souls to recruit players.

We're not going to spend the kind of money that is spent now.

And when Nils came along, of course, the Ivy League didn't go with Nils.

There's no way they'll ever be a $20 million payroll in the Ivy League.

And they continue to play at a high level, but did not want to compete with Ohio State and Penn State and Notre Dame, Oregon, whomever you want to name.

They wanted to compete with one another.

And that's what they do.

They play seven league games.

They play three non league games against other FCS teams, Patriot League teams, teams like that.

And then after 10 weeks with no buys, they're done and everybody goes home for Thanksgiving.

Now, I think they should let the league champion play in the FCS playoffs because I think they'd be very competitive.

Last year, Harvard played Holy Cross, which had been in the FCS semifinals the year before, and they beat him.

And they're competitive when they play teams like that.

And the players who should be the most important desperately want the chance to play in those games, and the presidents haven't given them to it yet.

And that's.

That's really a shame.

Yeah, I think it is.

But in a way, it's kind of.

I love the tradition.

That there's security to it.

Yeah, yeah, that.

There's that aspect of it.

You know, it's like, you know, the argument in baseball, the designated hitter versus, you know, no designated hitter.

I'm a traditionalist in sports.

I.

I find that, like you say, that purity of what they're doing and what the presidents are doing of keeping the Ivy League intact and traditional.

I find that kind of refreshing.

And everybody's home for Thanksgiving, which is certainly not the case in FBS football.

So even if you let the championship team play, the other seven schools would all be home for Thanksgiving, because the last day of the season is always the Saturday before Thanksgiving.

Yeah, very, very, very true.

And it's maybe they're putting a student first more so than the rest of the FBs and FCs.

Yeah, right, right.

Yeah.

Students first.

I kind of like that, too.

So, you know, one of the couple of students athletes that you talked about, you spoke about one or big man that you just talked about a few minutes ago, but the other one was the guy that I believe played for Yale in, got injured in one of the big games and came back in knowing his season was over.

And I know who you're talking about.

He.

He actually played for Penn and he's a remarkable story.

His name's Joey Slackman.

Grew up on Long Island.

He was a 4.0 student.

He was an all state wrestler and an all state football player, and he thought wrestling was his best sport.

He was not recruited for football.

He went to Penn as a wrestler, but realized during his freshman year that he was missing football and asked coach Ray Pierno if he could walk on the football team.

And Ray Pierro said, yeah, sure, fine.

And he walked on.

And to make a long story shorter, he ended up as the defensive player of the year in the Ivy League as a senior and was recruited by the University of Florida and many others to come play as a grad student during this season.

But during their game at Harvard, he separated his collarbone and it was a serious injury.

And the doctors told him, you're done.

You can't play the rest of this game and you can't play next week against Princeton.

And he understood that his college career was over, but the game went into overtime.

And when it went into overtime, he said to Ray Pierno, I'm going back in.

Don't try to stop me.

I'm not ending my career on the sideline.

He went back into the game, he made a goal line tackle in the second overtime to push the game to a third overtime.

And he said to me later, I knew my career was over at Penn, that I wasn't going to be able to play the next week because he needed surgery.

But I wasn't going out on the sidelines.

I was going to go out on my own terms, no matter how much it might hurt.

Remarkable young man.

Yeah, I mean, that, that story, I think, really tells what the Ivy League's about.

Their dedication to team first and, you know, by the players, that is team first and the sacrifices they're willing to make on their bodies.

Where you have kids in the FBS that won't play in a non championship bowl game because, hey, they're pro career.

So, I mean, I just found the whole thing refreshing.

It was certainly a lot of fun.

As I said before.

And like with my Army Navy book, like with my Patriot League book, I have no doubt that I will still be in touch with many of them for to come and that that is a very fun part of the project.

Yeah, football is about relationships and all sports are and that's a great thing too.

That's a glad to be able to experience that too with these guys.

Now John, why don't you tell us one more time title of your book where folks can get it?

The title of the book is the Ancient Eight A Look at the Modern Ivy League.

You can get it at Amazon.com martins and noble.com any bookstore.

If you walk into a bookstore somewhere and they say, oh, we don't have the book yet, yell at them and tell them to order it.

But most bookstores will have it now, especially since it just came out this past Tuesday.

Well, John, we really thank you for joining us here today and we thank you for preserving football history in your book and your many books on sports.

We appreciate that and appreciate your time today, sir.

Thank you.

Thank you for having me.

It was a pleasure.

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