If we’re going to imagine an alternative to capitalism, we need to create spaces for ideation, thinking, and researching. We must cultivate reciprocity with people we trust, and experiment with different models of regenerative and healing systems.

We need to align with the poetic patterns of meaning that may be heard beneath the noise of everyday life, and find space to play, be generous, and experience radical joy.

Ben’s guest for this episode is Felipe Viveros, a troublemaker, researcher, and ideation facilitator who works on creating spaces for thinking and experimenting with alternative systems to capitalism. He wants to create spaces for rest, joy, and playfulness, and believes that regenerative and healing systems are vital alternatives to our current economic system.

Links

• Connect with Felipe via LinkedIn
• Follow @theworldweare on Twitter
• Follow @nawelcura on Instagram
• Become crew on Spaceship Earth – Episode 16, with Dan Burgess
• The Dao of Civilization: A Letter to China
• Hope in the Dark: Untold Histories, Wild Possibilities – by Rebecca Solnit
• Generation Wealth (2018)
• 60-year-old foundation to close and redistribute over £100m in assets
• Clover Hogan (@cloverhogan)
• The Spacesuit – Ram Dass

Welcome to Peripheral Thinking.

The series of conversations with academics advisors, entrepreneurs and

activists, people all championing those ideas on the margins, the periphery.

Why is this important?

Well, as the systems on which we've depended for the last 50, 60 stroke

thousand years, crumble and creek people increasingly looking for new stories, new

ideas, new myths, if you like, that might guide and inform how they live and work.

So in these conversations, we take time to speak to those people who are championing

the ideas on the margins, championing the ideas on the periphery, those ideas which

are gonna shape the mainstream tomorrow.

Uh, and our hope is that you are a little bit inspired, a little bit

curious enough to take some of these ideas and bring them back to the

day-to-day of your work and your life.

now, uh, I came to your work via, um, a kind of project collaboration I'm involved

with, with, with Dan Burgess, who's also been on the, on the podcast and was kind

of lucky enough to see, uh, a teaching of yours, uh, a kind of sharing of yours a

few weeks ago, uh, and so really excited to get the opportunity to speak to you.

Thank you.

So one of the things that I was kind of mentioning this to you before, I'm

really curious to kind of understand a little bit more about your work.

I like the fact that I think so one of the headlines that I saw, there's definitely

troublemaker was written in there.

And I like that kind of that that sort of invitation that that sort of descriptor.

We say that's a sort of theme that runs through some of some of what you do?

I think it's, it's, it's difficult to know how to speak of oneself,

how to speak of, uh, what one does.

I was watching a film last night and they were taking the piss of this

concept of disruptor and they, they the Glass Onion is sort of like a

mainstream sort of Hollywood film.

And uh I think it's sort of like what I'm trying to say when I say sort of

troublemaker is sort of beginning not antagonistic, but, but sort of like, I

don't like capitalism, let's say, and I think we travel maker sort of like

saying the current operating system is, um, is, is, is functioning, is

running, but we need to find ways to put the, the, the spanner in the works.

And, and, and the more that we do that consciously and sort of like

we make that visceral, I think is, I think, I think it's really important.

One of the phrases I use trying to, is a friendly problem child.

And so, you know, just kind of asking, trying to ask difficult questions and

what you were talking there reminds me.

Another one of the teachings, actually, on Dan's thing, which was

bio Akhmalafi, and he was talking about just spending time in the spaces, in

the places that capitalism ignores.

So, you know, whether it's kind of the endings, whether it's with

the, you know, the kind of people that the system kind of ignores.

So now you, the importance of spending time in those places as a way, as a

kind of invitation into disrupting that system, disrupting those movements.

Yeah, exactly.

And, and I think it's also like, rather than sort of declaring oneself as

aligned to this, uh, sort of pattern, if you like, of uh, business and busyness

and, and profit and all of that.

And just say, look, I'm exploring something else.

I'm exploring something that is, uh, is, uh, is in the making.

And I think every, every time people, people laugh or people find the

really interesting, I think it's a, it's, it is a good provocation.

And I think it's, it is, it's important just to find different ways to talk about

the work that we do, and so to expand Ideas and concepts, like from entrepreneur

to travel maker, from activist to.

I was introduced recently in Amsterdam as a stargazer.

And I found that really amusing because everyone was like.

And this, uh, curator who was presenting the evening, and it was, and it was a

full, full house and loads of people, they're very high profile, very highbrow.

And, uh, I, I happened to kind of copy and paste in my, in my

biography somewhere, sga, so Google obviously kind of threw that out.

And then, and, and so I was introduced to this like very high profile.

So the audience as stargazer.

And I found that that's really cool.

I was like, sort of like, immediately I was sort of like finding myself

feeling all kind of cosmic and sort of inspired and guided by, you know, by the

Yeah, I like that.

Stargazer, you need a business card with that on it.

But it points to some of the things around work there and the work you do.

I'm interested in understanding the range and breadth of some of the projects

and work that you're involved with.

But I thought an interesting way of exploring that and I mentioned

this before before we started.

I literally just today started reading a book which was called The Tao of

Civilization which is By an ecological philosopher from Australia who's written

an open letter to President Xi, which is really a kind of an invitation to,

to, to the ch to China, essentially to reengage with its kind of Daoist

traditions and Daoist kind of philosophy, uh, as a possibility for the, for

the country to kind of own a, a kind of moral and spiritual position that

actually many, many people from around the world, particularly young people

would, uh, would, would, kind of, would, would buy into, would ascribe to.

And actually the importance for.

A civilization when it's, you know, when it's kind of growing that it's not just

about economic and military might, there does need to be a kind of something

cultural at the heart of it, which people can buy into which, which talks to them.

And she makes this kind of very impassioned case that because of

China's position with with Taoism in its kind of culture in its history,

that actually revisiting that might be, you know, a hugely important as we

try and wrestle with the civilization shift that needs to kind of happen,

but also that kind of aligns with what China is, is trying to do.

She talks in the beginning of the book about how her preference, of course,

would be just to spend time where she lives in Northern Victorian Australia in

the solitude and the quiet of that as a place to read, as a place to write, as

a place to think and publish and share.

But she kind of kept finding that there were these invitations coming

from China, requests to collaborate.

Request to teach.

Uh, and she kind of felt, you know, in a sense that this was

something that couldn't be ignored.

And I'll, I'll just read a short paragraph as a, as a.

A way to start as a kind of invitation to you, essentially.

She's saying, look, there's no mystical denouement to this story.

My three weeks spent walking from the staff hotel to the spacious campus did

not change my life any more than my earlier, more picturesque sojourns in

the Wudang Mountains or my pilgrimage to the utterly numinous queen of all

Chinese mountains, Taishan, had done.

Life is neither a fairy tale nor a mystical Taoist romance.

But there are, arguably, poetic patterns, patterns of meaning that may

be discerned beneath the often checkered ordinariness of everyday affairs.

One might choose either to ignore them or align with them.

If one aligns with them, then the contours of those larger, hidden poetic patterns

may become a little more discernible.

That is all.

I think there's a there's a question of seeking sanctuary.

I think bio, bio, like how Olaf speaks, that's bits of that, just

the sense of, yeah, how do we find respite in a compost heap?

I think the feeling of like, when this like huge, uh, sort of monumental

compost heap where kind of civilization is sort of like rotting and fermenting

and, and, there's some gray kind of like rotten tomatoes and, and

also the like juicy, smelly bits.

And was our role as sort of like organisms and sort of beings helping to transform

this very great sort of hot mess.

And I think in terms of like looking at my own sort of patterns

of work and inspiration, we can say, where do I kind of like ground

my work and where do I make it?

Find space for integration?

And we were talking earlier about Costa Rica, but basically I think yeah it's just

really important to be able to find space to stop, to change rhythm and to embody.

this waste of knowing and being that we say we want.

And, you know, we talk about, we, we use all these like great concepts to try to

articulate, to try to gesture towards this, uh, beautiful features, right?

And we talk about literation and we talk about.

Somatic abolitionism, we talk about very different things, right?

We talk about well being, economics, collective liberation.

There are ways that we are starting to speak about this beautiful alternative,

these beautiful features, But I think also, the more that we are able to have

glimpses of that and sort of create and collectively sort of live these spaces

of, rest, of inspiration, of playfulness of joy, radical joy, the more we're

able to kind of like do this sort of exercise of archaeology of the future.

and I was Thinking about this over the weekend, because I was part of

this festival here in Dartington, and there was a lot of journalists.

It was a byline times, festival.

and I was just reflecting on how we are sort of flooded with, um,

narratives that are about despair and, and, and fear and hopelessness.

Um, so the framing is very clear, right?

So we are bombarded with this, uh, stories, uh, that makes us believe

that this is the building blocks of the house of modernity to use, uh, Vanessa

and George's, uh, sort of concept.

But what about if we sort of like live this tragic house and go to

the garden and start to cultivate something else and build something else?

And I think it's a check, right?

We need to kind of, it's sort of like you're not going to break the spell

unless you use some sort of like magic trick to kind of get you out of this sort

of like, uh, tedious, uh, overwhelming, um, this sense of density, right?

I think, I think we all have this sense of like tipping points.

Oh my god, this like heatwave is crazy.

We're never seeing anything like it.

Ooh, the government growing ever more to the right and inhumane.

And then inequality is crazy and inflation is sort of like suffocating us.

And yet, yeah, there are things that we can do every day to kind of find sanctuary

and there are things that we can do also.

more like temporary autonomous zone that we can create spaces

where we can experiment.

What does a post capitalist world looks like and I think for me places like

Costa Rica or even even here around here in the southwest of the country, being

able to just dream together with other people about What this, other worlds

look like and feel like, but actually try to kind of prototype, try to rehearse.

Okay.

Let's pretend, let's fake it until we make it.

Let's pretend we, we, we live in a post capitalist world.

Okay, here you go.

There's a book for you, Ben.

Well, here you go.

There's a, I have a phone I don't use you, you can just have it.

Or like, uh, My friend years ago gave me, at some point, he wired me 500

pounds, no strings attached, he said, because he knew I was in a sort of

like a tricky economic situation and it was just like so awesome, right?

So I don't think it really takes, it's not, it's not as hard work as we imagine.

It's something that we can do every day, right?

And I think we can do it with anybody, but I think it's important to find a way where

we can kind of create sort of reciprocity and sort of people we are investing and

we are cultivating with people we know, with people we trust, with people that are

within our kind of like Niche, our nest.

And then we can kind of like grow and sort of make larger experiments with that.

But I think we need to start by creating a field that, a social field where we

can kind of like give and receive, right?

And sort of experience, oh, wow, this feels really good.

This is great.

I want more, right?

Oh, it wasn't so difficult.

I just gave you like.

I spent 50 quid and bought a bunch of books and and I felt really good giving

it to you and then you enjoy reading those books and then we can share them anyway

Yeah.

It's beautiful, isn't it?

'cause it's sort of, um, you know, on the, on the kind of one, you know, I love

the, what you're talking about there, the sort of the invitation to play.

The invitation to sort of generosity, the invitation to like.

All of these these kind of ideas which basically kind of run like

you were talking about in terms of what we're fed generally as a kind

of culture, particularly here in the UK, you know, what we're fed as

a culture, which of course, is the antithesis to all of those things.

And in some respects, my first thought as you were sort of talking is, God,

it's amazing how far Away people are from creating these spaces of

play, creating these spaces of joy.

But then as you were going on talking, actually reminded and pointing to

that actually creating some of these experimental places, creating some

of these moments, actually is hugely accessible and really possible.

Would you say that this idea of creating these?

It is the kind of a core part, is essentially what the core of your work is.

think it's in a way if we were to sort of put it in a in a presentation I think

there's sort of like ideas, stories, and culture, and then you have sort

of practice, community of practice.

So you have like, so I think I would say my work has this sort of three

components and three areas and they kind of feed back to each other.

So there is a, I think at the center, the need to, to, to have

spaces for ideation, a spaces for thinking, uh, researching for.

My friend, my friend Alor Lada who.

I work very closely with, he talks about we need to be good students of our times.

We need to, we are contextual beings.

If we don't understand the, the soup we are in is, is, is, is much

harder to, to try to change it, try to add different ingredients, to put

more water, to put more, uh, spice.

So I think, first and foremost, we need more spaces to be able to

create and to think differently.

And if you look at history, it's not rocket science, capitalism,

neoliberalism, these extreme forms.

They are, uh, created.

They are, uh, research, they are, planned and, uh, and, and, and just

stated in, in, in the spaces in, in, in, and, and led by donkeys.

Uh, here in this country's been showing how this right wing think tanks are

behind some of the immigration policies that the government is now about to pass,

how the economic policy in the US that then later influenced what happened in

Chile, where I come from, that now are sort of being implemented here in the UK.

And how there was a group of people who spent a huge amount of time, money,

resources, researching, planning, thinking, and imagining, right?

And so how are we going to create the alternatives?

How, what those alternatives are going to look like and where they're

going to sort of put down roots?

We need to be able to create spaces, we need to be able to find a resource

and create those spaces where we can kind of imagine alternatives, right?

Not how we're going to just stop and resist harm and sort

of like stop destructive sort of economic system, but also...

W how does regenerative systems look like?

How do healing systems look like?

Um, and feel like and work like, right?

And then from there, I think there's a part of like, how do we tell the story?

How do we socialize the system, this policies, this work?

And I think a lot of my work is, um, also trying to bring this into the mainstream.

I think I'm interested in how do these ideas are and they are, uh,

resonating with people, right?

Like this idea of well being economies is something that is not, it's brilliant,

people love it, people are like, you say, hey, what about a system where

you actually learn about happiness, you know what I mean, the conditions for

happiness are sort of like visible there and sort of productivity and accumulation

are sort of part of it, but actually there's a system that sort of like,

helps you in, in, in, in, in your own sort of task of, of having a good life?

People are like, amazing . I'm all down, all down for it.

And then, yeah.

How do you actually implement it, right?

How do you get some land?

How do you build a community land trust?

How do you create a co op house where it's also in a trust and people can share?

How do you create a co working space that is sort of people with

different incomes pay differently?

And there are ways that we can create reparation, regeneration,

and, and we, we kind of like do what we say we are about, right?

Because I think it's sort of like easy to kind of wear a t shirt and

be like, I am the regeneration, generation or whatever, right?

let's do it.

Let's actually make it happen, right?

Like, because I think it's sort of like, it's something that it

feels like we're already in this kind of like cocoon phase, right?

Of the compost process.

We are a little bit like, oh my God, this is like so horrible.

I hope I'm going to kind of like it.

You know what I mean?

Come out under the ve and it's gonna be over, right.

This nightmare kind of climate.

You know what I mean?

And it's like, yeah.

But also like we need to kind of like come out the ve and actually

like, yeah, go and get the ice cream from the, from the fridge Or

like, we need to do stuff, right?

We get, we, we, we need to kind of like, yeah.

Like shake out the fear and just sort of like, go and do it.

No one is coming to the rescue.

Yeah.

I think that's beautiful.

I had a conversation on the podcast with Daniel Pinchbeck.

Do you know Daniel Pinchbeck?

And he, we were having the conversation actually about a lot of the, The context

you were talking about there, he was mainly talking about the last sort of 50,

60, 70 years and the kind of coordinated effort of a very small number of people

on the right wing to control the kind of social, economic, and political narrative.

Essentially, as a coordinated set of activities.

In response, he was talking about it kind of bubbling up in response

to the, the kind of civil liberties movement in America in the 60s and 70s.

So this kind of coordinated, concerted, you know, organized response to control

the narrative through think tanks, through universities, clearly using kind of,

you know, finance generated from their companies to really control the narrative.

And, you kind of see that, of course, like all the examples you just talked

to there, you see that kind of playing out, you know, all, all over actually.

And how, how terrifyingly effective they were in doing that and the,

the conversation we were having, like in response, you know, kind of

in a way sort of disappointing the, the left didn't kind of meet that

challenge in the same kind of way.

Like, how can we be more coordinated?

How could we be more kind of organized?

How could we take the same sort of approach?

But kind of taking that on a stage, which you were also talking about

there, he was talking about, you know, the need, essentially, to,

you know, to go get the ice cream.

I mean, I didn't use that phrase, but like what you were talking about there.

Rather than just sort of sitting around doing it, he was saying that there are

all of these pockets of experimentation happening around the world.

You know, people trying things, people trying new ways of organizing socially,

people trying new ways of kind of living.

And in a sense, one of the things that.

Might best happen is working out how to, you know, kind of breathe life and support

into those experiments, but also work out how to start connecting those up so that

there is, there is some, I guess, kind of benefit of kind of mass that comes from

stitching some of those things together.

But again, it talks to a very similar thing that you're talking to, actually,

which is the need to be trying stuff, the need to be doing, the need to

support the people who are doing.

Because in a way, also, this kind of links somewhat, I guess, to part of

what we were talking about before the we started recording on the podcast,

like Jeremy Lent's invitation at the end of his book, you know, people

increasingly looking around for new stories and in a way, this is what you're

talking about is stories in practice.

How do I how do I kind of live?

How do I function?

How do I kind of relate to people?

And actually, the more support we can give, To the people who are

trying those things, the easier it will be, of course, for other people

to find their way to those things.

Yeah.

And it, and, and it's sort of like this, this cycle of like, thinking, articulating

sort of like telling an initial story of, you know, I mean like a one pager sort of,

of, of what we're, what, what we're doing.

Because there's so, there's so many areas of sort of life, right, where we

can kind of innovate, there's health, there's food systems, there's transport,

there's well being, there's youth, there's like, an incredible amount of

different areas where we can be doing interventions and trying new things.

Rebecca Solnit puts it in a beautiful way and she talks about mycelium, right?

So she talks about, um, mycelium the grows underground for a long,

long, long, long time and, and takes ages to kind of, uh, mature.

And when he matures, there's the fruit, the fruiting, that's the actual mushroom.

And I think with social movements and, and to make this analogy with social

movements, right, that there's a huge amount of moving and weaving and

connecting and pollinating and there's a huge amount of back and forth and, and,

and, uh, work, uh, sort of connecting and, and, and building these alliances, right?

And then at some point then you have something like,

whatever, Black Lives Matter.

So the Me Too movement.

And, and I think, it's also like different ways of working.

Like the, the, I was just thinking as you were speaking, um, the amount

of, like the bodies, if you like, the 1% of the , the big billionaire

corporations, uh, corrupt politician.

If you put all the kind of like this, like, uh, people kind of together.

They're just very noisy, you know what I mean?

It's like when you're like in a party and there's someone who is

really drunk and really annoying and is really wasted and it's sort of

like, it's a little bit like that.

It's sort of like, my friend also talks about this, it's like the

system is self defeating, right?

The system is, and if you look at, if you look at it from like the

perspective of social science, the science of the, the imminent si uh,

science of civilization collapse is that the civilization grows, grows

grow, and kind of need more resource.

More resource and more resources, and then ex sort of like collapses, right?

So in a way, and this, there's a film called Generation Wealth that kind

of shows that and how like follows a super wealthy hedge fund manager and

his journey of like growing, growing, growing, growing, then kind of losing

all the business and his family and it's all a big freaking mess.

So I think in that sense, let's say the kind of the old system, capitalism,

this very linear, self destructive, self obsessed, cannibalistic, right, to

use this concept, wetiko, right, this sort of like cannibalistic spirit, It's

sort of like in a way in its way out.

And I think what we need to be concerned really is like Yeah, how do we continue

nurturing that mycelium thing, and how do we continue helping this fruiting

happen and I think Yeah in an ideal world all the good people like us,

let's say, all the good people wakes up

Woo!

You know and in the next election, whoo hoo We, you know, I mean, we kind of

change the kind of like the political system considerably, and we vote very

tactically, and then we organize ourselves in such a way that we also exert pressure

in our kind of local sort of councils, and we we kind of push companies.

I mean, you know what I mean?

In this sort of like ideal world we can do so much, and yet there's

a bunch of things that already happened that are extraordinary.

And I think if you look at, if you look at what's happening with, with, with

some of the narratives that have been articulated by some of the young sort of

climate justice activists, uh, and I'm very close and I'm very part of many,

many, many of those communities, there is something great sort of fermenting, right?

And I think the speed to which the big shift is going to happen is going

to depend, again, in how invested we are, in how mobilized we are,

in how committed we are, in how.

I think, personally and individually, We can embody these ideas, and I

think it's difficult, because I think we both go to this contradiction

of like, oh maybe I should save some money for my, when I'm old.

Maybe the system is never gonna collapse and I need to kind of like

have like a little bit of money just in case, you know what I mean?

Or maybe, you know what I mean?

And it's sort of like, we, we go between sort of like feeling really

hopeful and like okay i'm gonna do some really cool stuff today and then

i'm like oh no i just kind of like need to change my car tires and it's

gonna cost me a lot of money you know?

So i think basically i think it's sort of like Change is

underway, change is happening.

How do we can, enhance, support, encourage the transition?

Yeah, it's sort of like.

It depends.

I don't think it's also like for everyone to kind of play the same role.

I think we all have different roles.

Some of us are pollinators and are kind of like playing a particular role of

like connecting and some others are funding and some others are articulating

and some others are storytelling and some others are healing and repairing.

So I think we all have our own role and I think the more that we just not talk about

it, but we actually like come together and do stuff and continue doing it.

Because it's also like, it's sort of like ideas, and then action.

And then sort of like, we can tell the story, wow, that was really cool.

That was a little bit boring.

And then you know, just we're able to reflect, right?

But it's sort of like this, it's sort of like a new layer is a new

sort of like, uh, think that we kind of feel is cool, but we don't

really know until we, we we do it

Yeah, and then reflecting on it.

One of the things that was coming up as you were talking there about

everyone having a different role, you know, some people pollinate,

some people connecting, some people articulating, some people funding,

you know, whatever it kind of may be.

I was kind of reminded of one of the things you were saying right early

on in the call, in our conversation where you were talking about how

you sort of thought about your time.

You know, there's some time for thinking, there's some time for

articulating, there's some time for doing.

And in a sense, you know, so many people are just so busy the whole

time, they would have no idea whether they were the connector,

whether they were the storyteller.

I mean, so they know somewhere in their heart, but of course, they're overwhelmed

by a tsunami of busyness, I have no idea where on that sort of spectrum of

opportunity I might best kind of fit.

And it kind of reminds me, one of my children is 12, and I was reading him

just a little thing from a book which was written by a Korean zen monk and

he has that kind of beautiful Zen way, all these kind of little quotes at

the end of the throughout the book.

And one of them was talking it was it was in a chapter that was

written for my young friends.

And it was sort of saying in there about, you know, the importance of kind

of experimenting, the importance of not chasing, you know, the idea about

what you're kind of told are the right professions because, you know, there's

30, 000 possible jobs in the world.

So take time to sort of explore and experiment with what might

be the right job for you.

Because actually, you know, if you take the time to do that and you understand

what contribution you want to make and how you're best able to do it.

Which, of course, allows people to kind of come to the place of understanding

what my role might best be with this.

Because in a way, that's the other thing that needs to happen is more people

need to find their way to what actually their best role might be, which, you

know, they're kind of buffeted away from in the kind of day to day of the

culture we live in here, particularly in the kind of in the West, in the UK.

Yeah.

I think it's, I think, I think it's, there's two things I think

they sort of like, again, the sort of the spell of capitalism in a way

makes us feel like we are all just.

I'm a little ant, working in the big, we're part of this big ant

nest, and we're all kind of just like insignificant freaking ants who are

just like, you know, producing more for our kind of ant masters, you know,

I mean, out there, the king, king ant.

Oh my God, I'm just working really hard.

And it's just like,

Yeah.

it's just like, sort of like.

You want to kill yourself, you know, I mean, it's horrible, the feeling of like,

my role is insignificant in society, my contribution is insignificant.

Because I think here we're so much sort of, in a way, culturally

defined by who you are, right?

And going back to this first question.

What, what are you Ben?

Oh, I'm a travel maker.

You never, you would never say that because this is like, everyone would be

like, oh my god, like what's this freak?

So I think there's a, there's a question of like, within this

sort of like, spell of capitalism, yeah,understand that we all care so much.

We all kind of like, like, with, with, with COVID, right?

The zombie apocalypse that, like, everyone was sort of, like, fearing

for, you know, I mean, dreading.

It didn't happen.

Everyone was, like, really nice to each other.

And, like, somehow this, like, extra sort of, like, layer of care

and thoughtfulness and compassion.

Sort of like suddenly, not from the from the again from the kind of the

the old guard who just sort of like turn into like big vampires and suck

life out of like this, like great opening of sorts, you know what I mean?

So I think that there's a sense of like, human beings are naturally caring

and they, and they have compassion.

And I think also what, what's happening is like, our generation for first

time, we have like, this choice, right, this question of purpose, am

I, right, livelihood, right, how do we find what we are good at, what

we love doing, what is good for the planet, what is good for society.

and then sadly, yeah, we decide we don't really need to do anything.

We just, the more that we're able to tune in with what our function within this new

sort of structure is, this new, how do we turn from caterpillars to butterflies?

And I think, if we have more of that, if we had like, uh, you can study at

university how to be a visionary and a dreamer, we've been talking about,

uh, in ton about doing a Master's of Climate Justice, And it's sort of

like, can we do a master's in, uh, cross-pollinating and networking?

Can we do a, you know what I mean, a PhD.

in resourcing and I've been working a lot and we were, we were speaking

about this earlier on, right?

Like there is, there is so much going on in the world of philanthropy, in the

world of 1% that yes, we see this like big bad sort of aristocratic sort of beings

who are like, uh, I like, I like sort of scary and at the same time fascinating

and at the same time just so evil, right?

But I think at the same time we have within this kind of universe of one

percenters, people who are very, very, very well off, billionaires

and wealth holders and people who have a lot of economic and

otherwise different forms of power.

There's a lot of transformation going on in there.

I was recently approached by a very, very, very, very wealthy queer sort of heire ss

of a big, big fortune, massive fortune.

And and they wanted to, yeah, to figure out how to pay more taxes and how

to run a campaign to pay more taxes.

So I think we're also seeing some levels of like unprecedented sort of coming

out and unprecedented sort of like that sort of in that sort of sector of

society of awareness and and and and a sense of like the the the window of

opportunity is very uh precise and, and if we don't take this window of

opportunity, we're going to miss it.

We don't have to say it's game over or it's endgame, but it's a sense

of like, there's a period of moment, you take it, And then you will

figure out what does it look like.

And I think for these very, very, very, very wealthy people as well, there is also

a sense of like, okay, accumulation, fine.

It's not rocket science.

You inherit a lot of money, you invest a lot of money, you

accumulate, you accumulate, you accumulate, you accumulate, and

then suddenly you're a billionaire.

And then it's sort of like, okay, now we've been playing that game, fine.

It's kind of cool, okay, but then what's next?

What's the consequences of all of that?

What's, personally and collectively, right?

Because I think for a lot of.

People who are in that sort of situation, they also find it really hard

a lot of the time to find meaningful connection, to know who they can

trust, who are their real friends.

And sort of like, can we reinvent that function and imagine if like, the

ability and the skills that take for someone who kind of climbed the system

so incredibly well and fast, what if those people put their sort of skills

and sort of uh, intelligence at the service of, of, of the whole, right?

And they become, rather than sort of like ex kings of extraction and

queens of like accumulation, they become sort of, uh, yeah, emperors of

generosity, and they somehow manage to kind of, help, you know what I mean,

accelerate this composting process?

And I think we are seeing that, and this, we were talking like a foundation

suddenly is announcing that they're gonna, spend down and, and, and

I have a piece of, uh, one of the quotes here, uh, of, of the article.

We will relinquish control of our assets, including the endowment and all resources

so that money can flow freely to those doing life affirming social justice work.

We will make space to reimagine how wealth, capital, And social justice

can coexist in the service of all life now and for future generations.

So we need more of that, really.

We need more of like where this sort of like time when, yeah, we need to

kind of like imagine the unimaginable.

We need to do what's kind of like unthinkable.

And and and I think, yeah, these actions at the kind of top of the

system are really influential in a way.

But also, we have all this also mycelium thing going on as well.

So it's sort of like, it's like we mirror each other, right, all the time.

We are sort of like, oh, wow, that was so cool.

Oh, my God, I'm going to do, you know what I mean, I'm going to do

whatever I'm going to do, right?

But it's sort of like, but we mirror each other like

Yeah, no, I love that.

I love how, um, I love the phrase, uh, uh, emperors of, uh, generosity.

I think we're covering the exact thing you used just there.

We've got a really, really kind of beautiful idea.

And I love how the kind of thought, like, to talking to the quote that

you offered from Rebecca Solnit, that the networks are doing their work.

And so the ground on which the billionaires sit, the ground on which

we all sit is changing, is moving.

And so in a sense, we're not separate.

Well, in every sense, of course, we're not separate from that.

It is doing its work on those people too.

One thing I was curious about.

And because I just think it'd be really great to kind of point to,

you were talking about some of the new narratives coming out of the

climate justice groups, for example.

What are some of the things in there which are kind of resonant for you and kind of

most kind of, if I was to kind of sort of point people to some of those things.

'Cos I think in a way it's kind of really useful for people to be enthused, to be

inspired by some of these, they some of these fruits which are bubbling up, and

so whether there's anything you would kind of point to specifically in that.

There is a kind of like, uh, a niche of, young people that kind of like feedback

from each other, and I think in terms of where you find it, I do a lot of digging,

I do a lot of like, sort of like diving into Twitter, into whatever now, Threads,

Instagram, I'm diving into this sort of like alternative sort of spaces where,

this narrative, let's say, they're never going to come up in the mainstream media.

They might come up at the Guardian or they might come up at some

kind of like, they sometimes sort of mirror into the mainstream.

But a lot of the time, um, they're not.

And I think if I were to say what's interesting about this narratives, I

think it's sort of like this, this part where we talk about vulnerability, where

we can kind of like reveal where we are having a, I'm having a shit time.

Changing the world is bloody hard work.

And, and just being able to.

I'm tired.

I need to go to bed.

I am so tired.

I go.

Yeah, it's hard, it's hard to be an activist, it's hard to do the work that

we do, so I think there's an element of vulnerability but also I think an

element of, like, if we were to say these new narratives as well, and I kind

of like to bring this idea of sort of how do we model the behavior, right?

How do we sort of model the sense of like, yeah, we're really human, we're

accessible, we're real, we're not the sort of like super, super kind of like perfect

role models, but we're just sort of like this paradox, this walking paradox.

I was hearing this Australian activist speak on, uh, Twitter

the other day, Clover Hogan.

And she was talking about fossil fuel, the tactics, right?

Denial, delay, deflection, and despair.

And she just, like, framed it.

She just totally nailed it.

I was like, wow, this is like a...

this is so cool.

Not just in sort of like saying like look yeah the tobacco industry use

all this fucking uh, these technique before, now the photo fuel industry

is doing it they're making they're raking so much money, they're

not going to change like that.

They already kind of missed the chance to kind of like do something about it.

What we have to do, we have to shut them down.

We have to kind of like organize.

And we, she was saying something like there's always been people who the

oppressors, this was the frame, right?

The oppressors have never liberated the oppressed.

You know what I mean?

You draw us an oppressor, it's never happened to be like, yeah, guys, you're

like, yeah, you're all free to go, like.

We've changed our mind.

changed our mind.

You know what I mean?

We're going to join you guys.

We want to be the oppressors as well.

We want to play the game.

Yeah.

We've made, we've made a bad move.

feel bad.

Exactly.

It

We're really sorry.

No, so this is never going to happen.

So it's sort of like when it needs to happen, and she was framing it

so well, it's sort of like, yeah, changes always come from the ground up.

Changes always been sort of propelled by people power.

Changes always happen in that.

That's the pattern, right?

And I think being able to be very sober about that and, and, and be like, look,

yes, the UN and, and Cop 28 now, um, and all the scientists and the this and that,

we can, we cannot just wait for, for kind of like that to kind of take it somewhere.

Because we see in this, there's so much, um, good intention at times, but the pace

to which that is going on is very, very, very, very, very, very slow compared to

what we need to be doing, right, compared to what, what this kind of emergent shift.

That's already happening in a way.

So I think there's, there's an element of like, uh, vulnerability.

There's an element of like, no more bullshit is like, we understand

now this is not gonna happen.

The fossil fuel industries, they're gonna continue.

Uh, sucking it up until they, they can, they're like, this is,

like, this image of addiction is, I think, is really useful to see.

So they're, they're freaking addicts.

They n they're not gonna, you know what I mean?

They never gonna like go to go to like a re rehab center, because

they're too steep in the math, right?

So I think there's a sense of like, vulnerability, we need to sober

up and understand that our kind of like, operating system is so kind

of addicted to growth, to power, to money, to, it's so greedy.

So it's sort of like.

It's, it's a lost battle.

It's a lost cause.

It's sort of like we shouldn't be concentrating, rearranging

the shelf of the Titanic.

And then I think there's the, the kind of like the last leg of this

sort of new narratives, I think.

Yeah.

The sense of like, How do we, it's sort of like superseding

the current system, right?

It's sort of like, how are we gonna defeat this huge, powerful beast?

It's by sort of like concentrating in, in sort of nurturing this little refuge,

this little garden, this little sense of like, different worlds are possible.

Because it's sort of like change is already underway in terms of the climate,

in terms of ecological collapse, there is so much that's already been done, right?

So I think we need to be really aware that we, and this is, I can't

remember whose phrase is it, but we're living in the age of consequence.

So we are, we are, we are screwed up.

We have messed up with the, with the atmosphere.

We, we have messed up with the oceans.

We have messed up with the river.

We have messed up with the land.

We have messed up with so much for so long.

It's the age of consequence.

Our ecological changes, dysfunction is going to carry on for a while.

So I think it's important, how do we create those little spaces

of sanity and sanctity, right, in our cities, in our communities,

in the countryside, in anywhere.

I think it's that sense of like, again, how do we embody the behavior?

How do we model this new ways of knowing and being, new old ways

of knowing and being, that centre care and reciprocity and generosity

and vulnerability and all of that.

So I think it's also that.

And I think in terms of the narratives, I think, yeah, the more that we're

able to have this, because it's almost, it's almost like it's a reframe

of what we can really see, right?

Because sort of like current narrative is sort of like stiff

upper lip, just go on with it, right?

Like we need to solve your own techno fixes, and then the

system is going to solve it.

The UN is working really hard and the UN now, General Secretary is like making

all this like powerful statements.

And Westminster is, you know what I mean, trying to sort of sell us

that they, they're doing some really important stuff about the climate.

And then I think there is a sort of like a, a vague idea of and a vague sort

of projection about the future as well that is sort of like very disembodied.

So I think in a way the new narratives are kind of like a reframe of the

of the kind of like old narrative.

And I think it's also like they're they are evolving all the time.

And I think they are also like more colourful as well.

I think there's a sense of like for me when I think about new narratives,

it's sort of like, they're very BIPOC, they're very queer, they're, they're not

anymore this kinda white heteronormative, uh, male middle age sort of narratives.

But they're like very, very dynamic and very much centering the voices of, voice

who have been silenced and marginalized.

particularly in this Capitalocene period.

And I think this sense of like, we need to reimagine and sort of redefine what it

means to be human, because I think it's sort of like we we have created this era.

very, uh, damaging.

So the social construct of like whiteness and race and, and

so in a way we need to now.

I think it's this question of like, indigeneity is sort of related

with that sort of inquiry, right?

Of like, what does it mean to be a human today in July 2023, right?

Like, I live in Devon.

I'm originally from Chile, I'm a fruit salad, meaning I'm a mix of

very different ancestral lines, I have traveled and lived all over the world.

Where is the place that I need to kind of protect and work

and sort of care for here?

Because here is where I live and here is where I spend most of my time.

And so I think there is a sense of like, this phrase of, uh, we are life itself.

Whether you, you, you, you were the kid of a colonizer and a slave trader, or

whether you were the descendant of, of a mix of that or whether you are like

indigenous, we all sort do different sort of manifestation mycelium sort of lines

of this great, uh, source that is life.

And I think we have created this social construct, Ram Dass

talks about the space suit.

I identify so much with the space suit.

It has a certain color, it has a shape, it has a certain sexual propensity,

it has so many different qualities.

And part of the old narrative, if you like, is like we have

identified so much with like, I am a Manchester City supporter or I'm

Christian and uh, this and that.

And I think this a moment where we sort of like reckon, yeah, re imagine, and sort of

realise because I think we're living very much in this sort of like fantasy world

that only exists in our heads, right?

We are kind of like the children of the empire.

And we kind of like believe somehow that we're still in this sort of like

grand, empire thing, And it's, and, and, and it's just, just in our heads.

And so I think it's sort of like, this question of like, also making sense of

who we are and the good things about what we have and like what your, the

what your life is, where you are.

The, the, the, your community, your family, your closest friends,

your local woodland, and this sense of like the kinship and our

connection was severed somehow.

We were colonized internally.

The land was colonized.

Our mind was colonized.

Our body has been colonized.

Our spirit has been colonized.

How do we decolonize that?

How do we exorcise that very harmful way of thinking and being, and find connection

and build meaningful connection with ourselves, with the land, with each other?

Where do people find you?

I try to keep my sort of, work fairly visible, but not too

visible maybe so, I dunno.

They just, just find, find, find some my writings online anywhere.

And then, um, I'm often on, the usual platforms and Instagram

and Instagram and Threads and

of those.

all of those.

Yeah.

And yeah, Twitter and,

Cool.

I mean, another point.

I'd love, because I could sort of, I could speak to you probably.

I'm really curious about that idea around kind of vulnerability, for example.

It's just such a kind of powerful one because, in a sense, a lot of and we

won't use this as a kind of launchpad to a whole new thread of conversation now,

but something for another day for sure.

In a sense, it feels to me a huge part of like sort of capitalism's crazy march

over the last sort of decades feels to me is kind of linked to that actually,

you know, this desperate need to fill a hole, essentially, that that exists

in us, you know, like we were talking about the billionaires earlier earlier,

and in a sense, in some senses, they just got a much fucking bigger hole.

It's like, I desperately tried to fill this sort of this kind of

illusion of emptiness, this sort of hole that I have inside me.

And I do with the the need to consume the need to acquire

the need to fill myself up.

And it's kind of creates this compulsion, which you know, you

also use the word addiction.

And in a way, it kind of feels like These are the threads which have

been kind of running through a lot.

And the idea about vulnerability feels like a key which sort of, it's

like the sort of judo move, isn't it?

It's the kind of the move which kind of flips all of that open,

reveals all of that for what it is.

Thank you.

I'd love to be able to speak to you again at another point and hugely

appreciative of everything that you've shared and all of your work.

And yeah, I just leave it with a thank you.

Next podcast, we know where we go, vulnerability.

But it's true, no, it's a big one, it's a big one.

Yeah, absolutely.

Wicked.

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