Can PAs do research? Yes. And most people have no idea.

Sarah Schettle is a cardiovascular surgery PA at Mayo Clinic, and research is a real part of her career, not a side hobby she squeezes in. This episode is part of the POCN+ series, and it's a good look at how much room this profession actually has once you're out of school.

That's the thing I want pre-PAs to hear. You are not locking yourself into one exam room for thirty years. PAs teach, publish, lead departments, change specialties, and yes, run studies. Sarah talks about how she got into it, which mostly came down to saying yes and finding the right people.

Networking sounds like a gross word until you realize it just means knowing who to ask.

What we cover:

• What research looks like as a practicing PA
• Sarah's path into cardiovascular surgery at Mayo
• How to get involved in research without a PhD
• Why mentorship opens doors faster than anything else
• How flexible the PA career really is across specialties
• Professional communities and resources worth knowing about

Resources:

Free Application Timeline: https://www.thepaplatform.com/services/free-application-timeline

PA Program Map: https://www.thepaplatform.com/pa-platform-map

Pre-PA Counseling: https://www.thepaplatform.com/services/pre-pa-counseling

Pre-PA Academy: https://prepaclub.thepaplatform.com/landing/academy

Mentioned in this episode:

CapYear Training

Get $200 Off CapYear Academy Looking to boost your clinical experience this summer? CapYear Academy offers a flexible, 100% online medical assistant training program with optional externships and CCMA certification included. 🎓 Use code PA200 for $200 off your tuition! 👉 Enroll now at capyear.co

In today's episode, I'm talking to Sarah, an amazing cardiovascular surgery PA at Mayo Clinic who has such great insights into how to be a PA and do research, which I've been asked about so much.

Welcome to the Pre PA Club Podcast.

If you want to learn how to become a physician assistant, you're in the right place.

I'm your host, Savannah Perry.

Let's get to it.

Hey guys, thanks so much for tuning into the podcast.

I am so, so excited about today's guest.

Her name is Sarah Schedel.

She is awesome.

So much cool stuff we're about to get into, so stay tuned in just a second.

I'm Savannah, by the way, a derm PA and founder of the PA Platform, which is your one stop shop for.

Figuring out anything you need to know.

About the PA school application process.

So for today's episode I have been asked so much if PAS can do research and so I was connected to Sarah by the POCN plus, which is the Point of Care Network, but basically the best way to explain the website, which is just pocn.com is a online community and network of PAs and NPs with tons of resources.

So POCN plus is a free offering that provides premium live and on demand educational content in a one stop app for the NPNPA community.

The platform includes education, educational content such as weekly medical news, highlights, interviews with healthcare professionals on a variety of topics and therapeutic areas, case studies, CME discussions between NPs and PAs, a COVID 19 series, and more.

The platform's videos are produced with top expert NPs and PAs and sourced from reputable partners such as the CDC Board, Vitals, Real Diagnosis, TCOID and others.

So POCN plus is available on the web, iOS, Android and various streaming services, even Apple TV, Amazon, Firestick, Chromecast and others.

So you can check it out if you go to pocnplus.com and that's plus spelled out so p o c n p l u s dot com the link to that will be in the description so that you can check it out.

So I've been on the website a good bit and tons of great videos about tons of different topics and it's really great to hear from colleagues and connect with colleagues.

And one thing that you'll hear Sarah talk about is the power of networking, especially to find mentors and people who are doing things that you would like to do or in the spaces that you would like to be in, such as research or administration or leadership.

So using POCN is a great Way to do that.

All right, we'll jump into our interview with Sarah, and she is just so inspiring.

If y' all have any questions for her, feel free to reach out to me via email and I will get you connected because she's a busy, busy lady, but very enthusiastic about her career, which most PAs are.

So I appreciate her time and I hope you enjoy this interview.

Sure.

So, hi, my name is Sarah Shuttle.

I currently live in Rochester, Minnesota, and I work at Mayo Clinic.

I grew up originally in Oshkosh, Wisconsin, so about four hours away.

And I went to undergrad, actually, at Wisconsin Oshkosh, and then I did PA school at Wisconsin La Crosse, and then I went back and just got my MBA last year at Wisconsin Oshkosh again.

So now I'm back in Rochester, and I've been currently in the role that I've been in for.

This is my 11th year now in cardiovascular surgery, and I've loved it.

That's so cool.

So exciting.

Okay, well, what got you interested in the PA profession?

What kind of led you down that path?

I was always interested in working in some capacity to help people or make a meaningful impact on their life.

And healthcare just seemed like a natural way to be able to do that.

And in undergrad, I had the ability to work in a hospital and volunteer, and I really enjoyed the ability to do direct patient care.

And I actually thought I was going to go to med school.

We had a pre med club at my college.

I did a lot of research in undergrad as well.

And that's kind of a basic lab, and I can tell you more about that.

But.

But I tried to kind of have everything set up so I could go to medical school, which is what I thought I wanted to do.

And then we actually had a recruiter from a PA program that had visited our club and talked about the PA profession.

And to be honest, I hadn't really heard much about the PA profession and wasn't aware of some of the flexibility and options that you get offered as a pa. And one of the things I found to be really appealing was the ability to change professions, if you want to say.

I could work in obstetrics and gynecology in one year and be an orthopedics the next and then do cardiovascular surgery or rheumatology or really anything that you can imagine.

And I loved the thought that I could explore different areas of medicine, whereas if I would become a physician, I would essentially be tied to that area of medicine for my entire career.

And that flexibility and Ability to grow in different areas was appealing to me.

I also didn't know for certain which area I wanted to practice in, so I thought, well, if I pick one and I don't love it at the first couple of years, I have the flexibility then to try a different area of medicine and see if it's a better fit.

I love that.

I also like the ability to be able to have a little bit more time and a bit more of a relationship to be able to be forged with patients than sometimes you're afforded as a physician.

I changed my mind there towards the end of my collegiate career and decided to go the PA route.

I actually stayed for just a little bit longer to add on extra biology classes.

I was very heavy, and physics and chemistry, and less so in biology, which a lot of PA programs require.

And then I applied to PA programs instead.

I didn't apply for med school at all and never looked back.

Nice.

That's interesting.

I think one thing you touched on was, you know, you can change careers and do things.

And that's one thing that's so cool to me about our profession is you and I are both PAs.

We have the same title, but our jobs, we look very different because I'm in cardiovascular surgery, but we fall under the same title, which is really interesting.

Have you always done cardiovascular surgery or did you switch around?

I have.

And even to your point, Savannah, even in dermatology, I'll bet your derm practice is very different than a PA's derm practice down the road.

And so even within something that might seem similar, there can be really quite a lot of variation, which I think is wonderful and exciting.

I work in, actually a specialty within a specialty.

Most people with cardiology and then cardiovascular surgery is a section of cardiology, then I work in patients that have very significant advanced heart failure that have failed, essentially all of what would be considered optimal medical management.

Most of my pacemakers have already had ICDs, defibrillators, that thing.

What happens is their heart failure can still progress even despite that.

And so most of these folks, their ejection fraction or squeezing capacity of their heart is less than 25%.

I see folks regularly in the single digits, which is, as I'm sure you can imagine.

I see your eyes wide.

Yeah, you're taking me back to PA school, but I know that's not good.

Very low, but.

So those are the folks that I see.

And we, by me, I mean the surgeon and the cardiologist and myself as a team, meet with these patients, and then the surgeon puts in these, what are called implantable ventricular assist devices, typically they're implanted on the left side.

Essentially the surgeon makes a small hole in the base of the left ventricle at the apex where you feel maybe for a pmi, if you recall from school, small hole there in the left ventricle.

And then a tube is inserted there that's connected to this pump.

Then that pump has another tube called an outflow graft that's attached or, or to basically anastomose to the ascending aorta.

Basically, you provide an alternative conduit then for blood flow.

Instead of the blood going from the left ventricle through the aortic valve to the aorta to the body, then it goes into the left ventricle through the pump to the aorta to the body, you have an alternative pathway for essentially the cardiac output to be preserved.

And you can help with end organ function.

The pump is powered by essentially an electrical cord.

So imagine like what you use for a blow dryer or like a screener or something exiting their abdomen.

And so they have an external cord that comes out of their belly.

And then that is connected to an external power unit.

That's called.

It sort of looks like what a smartphone would look like if you stack maybe three of them on top of each other.

And so that's their controller, their patient controller, and that's powered by two batteries.

They walk around with that little unit during the day, then at night, most of them don't want to wake up and change batteries.

They plug into a wall unit to power themselves at night.

I'm imagining Ironman.

That is what it feels like you're describing.

It's very similar, except instead of totally replacing the heart, we assist the heart.

Although there are instances where you can entirely replace the heart.

There is a device called a total artificial heart, where basically you excise both ventricles, all valves, and you keep some atrial cuffs.

And then you sew this device, and that has essentially two plastic ventricles that are connected.

And then it has four artificial valves with kind of atrial cuffs on that side.

And you sew the atrial cuffs to there.

And then you have two tubes that exit the patient's body.

And these two ventricles that are these like plastic spheres have what you can imagine, like sort of a rubber diaphragm that inflates or deflates plates to send blood in and out of the left and right ventricle that you've created.

And that functions as their heart.

So, yeah, you can get really in the weeds if you want to in cardiology.

But it's a fascinating area and the fact that we can even do this or work in this area as a pa, I think is fascinating.

I love it.

Medicine is wild.

And I think, I mean, even the past year, just seeing medicine happening in action has been crazy.

And I will say, out of a lot of the PAs I meet, I would say cardiovascular surgery.

PAs are some of the most passionate and excited about what they do, which I feel like you definitely portray just because it is such an interesting specialty.

How has that, I mean, were those things options and around when you first started or how have you seen medicine just change throughout your career?

That's an excellent question, Savannah.

And I think one of the things is that it's a very dynamic practice in some areas of medicine.

I imagine you're practicing probably similarly as to how you might have, let's say five or 10 years ago.

And the devices that I manage now are not the devices that were used 10 years ago.

The devices that were just a little bit before when I started were the size of what you would imagine maybe a pancake might look like around maybe this big.

And they had essentially these bearings that you could literally measure metal shadings that came out of the device to know when the bearings had worn down to a point where you might want to consider exchanging the device.

Now you have magnetically levitated devices that don't have these touch points with longer survival and fewer comorbidities, or at least lower rate of those comorbid conditions occurring.

The devices are significantly smaller.

When I started, the newer device at that time was one eighth the size of its predecessor.

And the current devices that I use now are even much, much smaller than that one that was smaller.

So they're getting smaller and more durable.

And I think that's good for patients too, because the more that we can do to improve morbidity and mortality, especially in some of these end stage heart failure patients, the better.

So I'm glad that there's this constant thirst and desire for innovation and hopefully driving progress forward in this area.

But that was something that I thought was also very interesting about working in this area because it's so ripe for research.

And I know you probably want to ask me where did I go in different areas?

Oh no, I love it.

That's why I love Jay Z and just getting to connect with PAs who do different things because I mean, it is similar.

And I've been in Durham now for six years.

And thinking back when I first started, we had probably three biologic systemic medicines to treat psoriasis, and now we have 12.

And it's just crazy thinking back to when I first started, and the ones we had were, you know, we might could get someone 50% clear, and now the majority of them get 90% of people completely clear.

And it's just wild how that has happened.

And I mean them on TV all the time, you know.

Yeah, exactly.

That's.

Yes, those medicines.

That's.

That's the ones.

So, yeah, it's just wild.

Okay.

Also, in your career, how have you seen the role of a PA change?

Or maybe even just the awareness.

Like, what about.

It's hard because people probably ask you this to be like, what do you love about your job?

And they want to know about your specialty and being a page.

So what have you seen?

PA wise.

That's kind of changed, I guess.

Sure.

Well, I can speak.

I've essentially worked at Mayo Clinic for my entire career, so I feel very fortunate to have done that because I know that there is appreciation and understanding of what advanced practice providers, NPs and PAs can do.

And I think that I'm probably used at a greater capacity with a skill set that I possess than maybe I might in some other areas where perhaps understanding of what PAs can and cannot do are different.

And so.

But I think that the nice thing also is that we have an onboarding process by which you get training and mentoring.

And I hope we spend some more time talking about mentoring, because that's so important.

Yeah.

Basically get to have somebody help you and learn for the first couple of months, you don't feel like you're just starting out, not knowing what you're doing or what you're not doing that you should be doing.

And then the physicians that I work with are just wonderful.

Honestly, I couldn't say better things about them.

And they have been incredibly supportive.

And I think that one of the wonderful things that I've experienced during my career is just that I've been allowed to grow and progress and have been supported through that.

So when you start out, you're newer and you're still learning and kind of like, how do I function as a pa?

How do I integrate with members of a multidisciplinary team?

What's my role?

What can I do?

And.

And as you grow in those skills and that confidence and that ability to do those things, you can do more.

And when you are encouraged and supported to do more, I think it really helps one grow in advance and develop both professionally and personally.

And so I think one of the things with the PA role in at least my subspecialty is just that there is so many opportunities for research.

I've done a ton of different research projects.

I've presented, published, given talks at a lot of different places.

And you could almost say, what about LVAD and X?

And that could be your research project.

And I think that there's a lot of things that might be applicable in other specialties that maybe just haven't been trialed in our patients.

So there's a lot of areas that you can explore.

And I was given a lot of freedom and flexibility to do that if I wanted to.

I had some great physician mentors that spent time with me and talked me through.

How do I create a poster, how do you do a publication, or if you submit a paper and the first time they send it back and say, we want you to make these three changes does not mean that's a rejection.

That's actually encouraging that you just have to make a few adjustments.

And so having someone help you and talk you through that process I found to be incredibly helpful.

And knowing that I had that support really encouraged me to continue to forge on in that way.

Yeah, I want to talk about that more, because that's actually a question that I get from a lot of pre PAs is, are there PAs who are involved in research?

So is that something that is either encouraged and.

Or expected at your job or something that you just had an interest in and kind of pursued and sounds like you were supported well in.

Right.

Well, I think I would say a combination of all of the above.

At Mayo, there's three shields that we try to use to drive patient care.

And so the three shields are essentially patient care, research and education.

And all those three things are highly valued and supported.

And so research falls underneath that category.

And in undergrad, I had a desire just to kind of explore and see what you can do with research, and had a mentor very early on in my undergrad career who asked if I wanted to work in his lab.

And I didn't even know that research was something one could do.

That that sort of opened the door for me to say, gosh, you can explore all these different things or actually study in real life how something might or might not work.

And so I did a lot of.

I made my own gels and did gel electrophoresis and mass spectrometry and worked with cyanobacteria, which I think helped me understand.

I like people.

It's not interesting to study cyanobacteria But I think that it gives you an appreciation for the process and scientific method and those kinds of things.

And then when I actually got to work in medicine, I came from this background where I had quite a lot of research.

I did all four years in undergrad.

I wrote for grants from the NIH and all these sorts of things.

So I felt very comfortable in that space.

And it seemed natural to kind of lend that to medicine on a more patient care level rather than cyanobacteria.

And so I think one of the first ones that I had looked into was bleeding, actually.

So the patients that I see, because of the way this pump works, their blood cells can break down more easily, and they're on anticoagulation that causes them to bleed more easily.

Bleeding is one of the more common comorbid conditions that can occur.

But there are limited treatment options that you can do to prevent bleeding.

Certainly you can bring somebody into the hospital and do scoping and clipping or APC or all these things, but if you could give somebody something to take to prevent that, that would be wonderful.

And so that was one of my first projects.

I worked with one of the cardiologists because I had learned of a different medication that was used actually in kind of the gynecology population for bleeding.

And I thought, I wonder if the mechanism of action would be similar, that it would have applicability in our patients.

And it turns out it was.

It was successful in helping to mitigate bleeding for some of these patients.

And so I was kind of fortunate in that, you know, my first stab at it was something that worked out with some degree of success.

And he helped mentor me through, you know, how do I collect data?

What are demographic information that I need to have?

You know, what are these sorts of things that are necessary?

And then from there, I became very curious about what are other things that I could potentially look at or explore to help improve patient care.

So I've done my own IRBs.

I've been PI on several projects.

I did an international INR study to look at point of care INRs and LVAD patients, which is now a standard of care across a lot of the US for how we manage these patients.

So it's kind of exciting that you can make a tangible difference in real time or in maybe a year or two, or however long your project might take, that will have an impact, hopefully in a positive way on patients.

I don't know.

I found that to be so interesting and fascinating.

I actually just came from doing a research project with One of my cardiology colleagues, I was like, I hope I make it in time because I don't want to miss the study patient here.

So, yeah, lots going on, but it's very exciting and it's nice to be able to be a part of hopefully progress for the future for patients.

That is so cool and inspiring, but so, so cool.

Which, and I think for pre PA students listening.

One thing that we focus on and learn in PA school is about evidence based medicine and like Sarah mentioned, standards of care and having expectations across the board of what we can do for our patients.

And like you said, hopefully over time those just improve with better options, safer options, more accessible options.

But that is so cool.

I'm going to look up and read your papers.

I'd love to tell you anything about them you want to know, but oh.

My gosh, I love it.

Maybe Even for pre PA students or even current PAs, I enjoy doing research in that capacity.

But there are other ways I think that you can grow professionally besides just say you want to run the research track and there's none are better or worse.

It's just different.

Do I like pizza or ice cream?

You know, it depends on the day.

Right.

And so there's a lot of work for quality research, which is a little different than, you know, you're, let's say, introducing a medication.

But how can you improve a system or a process or how patients receive care?

How, you know, you could look at really any sort of thing and that's a really important way of impacting patient care that maybe if you're not quite sure you want to jump into, let's say, you know, medications or interventions for patients, you can improve the processes.

We actually have a quality academy at Mayo that you can get different ranking in.

So that's something I've done too, because I think it matters, you know, I think you want to be able to deliver high quality, high value care for patients.

So that's an area and there's a lot of quality conferences so you can look up information on quality and maybe your specialty or family medicine and quality.

And there's a lot of really great stuff on there and kind of a way that you could dunk your toe in, so to speak, in research.

And then you can also do things within academics so you can do teaching.

I worked in the PA program where I worked as the director of development and helped found me as first PA program actually here.

So we have our first group of students currently going through the process.

What we all went through.

It's really nice to be able to help participate and contribute to how that occurs.

But you can also do teaching.

You don't have to necessarily teach in a PA program to teach.

You can teach colleagues, you can teach at conferences, you can give lectures.

You can even teach people how to teach.

Because I think that sometimes there are some incredibly intelligent people that maybe just don't have a good way of conveying that information in a meaningful way to others.

And so there's a lot of literature out there as to how to improve your ability to teach.

And so we.

We also have it, essentially, it's called the.

The Academy of Educational Excellence.

And so you can go down different tracks there.

So you can do, you know, teaching as an option.

So there's a lot of ways that you can pursue professional development.

Research is something that I love to do.

But you.

That can take a lot of different paths.

You can do, you know, education, you can do, you know, lecture.

You can all of these things.

And I'm probably just scratching the surface.

There's probably people who are like, oh, I do this or I do that, you know, and.

And that's the thing.

Like, you're not limited as a pa.

It's only, I guess, limited by what you want to do.

Yes, And I love that you said that, because that's.

That's what I try to explain is even if there aren't as many PAs doing research or as many in administration, that doesn't mean you can't be.

If that's something that you're interested in and want to pursue, do it, Go for it.

I want to know about your mba.

What pushed you down that path?

Yeah.

So I graduated, obviously, with my master's in PA studies.

And I think that one of the great things that PA programs do is help you understand human physiology, anatomy, how things work from kind of, I guess, a body perspective.

But one of the things that I did not feel incredibly well versed in is how does medicine happen from a business or administration perspective?

And I don't know that PA programs are necessarily designed to tackle that.

Why people get MBAs.

I suppose I think it was something that I thought would be very useful and helpful for me to know.

How can I ensure that care is occurring in a way that is financially viable or that I'm offering value in ways beyond just patient care, or how do we ensure that we create a practice that is viable?

You know, those kinds of things.

And so I was very interested to understand more of the business and administrative aspects of medicine or just business generally.

And so I love Learning.

Honestly, Savannah, I'm actually a huge podcast fan.

So when I heard you wanted me to talk on a podcast, I thought, this is so near and dear to my heart.

You can literally pop in a podcast and learn whatever you want to learn in real time.

You know, you can go for a walk and learn or on your way to work or way to classes or whatever you're doing.

And I thought, gosh, the only thing that is limiting my ability to learn is just, I guess my desire to do so.

And I really wanted to learn more.

So I, I actually did an in person MBA class.

So I drive four hours one way and then four hours back every single weekend to do it.

And then I listened to podcasts and books and things.

So I feel like I was learning so much during that period of time.

I actually missed it when it ended because I thought I really kind of grow to love those sessions where you, you're just soaking up.

Like at least I felt like I was soaking, soaking up like a sponge, all of these different things.

So, yes, I graduated with that in the midst of COVID which was a crazy thing in and of itself.

But it was nice to have that experience and background and allows me to see medicine through a different lens and helps me ensure that I'm practicing in a way that is helpful not only to patients, but to ensure the survivability of my practice as well.

Yeah, for sure.

I think being a self proclaimed lover of learning is pretty common for PAs in general.

And yeah, I toyed around with getting my MBA.

My husband goes, can't you just watch YouTube videos?

And I was like, well, I could, but I'm like, I'm, I'm like you.

I mean, I just love learning and I think it's so, it's.

I feel like education is so accessible to us, like you said through podcast and I mean all this information.

So as a pa, I think if there is an area you want to get into, there are ways to learn about that.

And then also, you know, finding mentors.

Do you have any tips for going about really finding someone who can help, maybe guide you through some of those processes of.

That's what I think.

It's just intimidating.

Like as much as I would love to write a paper or do a presentation at a conference, I can talk about pre PA stuff all day long, but that intimidates me.

How do you get started?

Right?

I think that's right.

I think if you think back even to PA school, the first time that you had to actually write a soap note or Present a patient to a precept or all those things.

The first time is always tough, right?

Because you're nervous seeing it, right?

I've been doing too much, not enough, you know, am I listening in the right spot?

And I think that that's probably like any venture the first time or two that you do it, you know, it takes practice.

I think what I would maybe recommend is to figure out what one is interested in doing.

If you say I want to grow professionally, what does that look like for you?

Do you want to, are you interested in quality?

Are you interested in a research project or what kind of form might that take that you feel would help you grow or learn or pursue whatever goal it is you're trying to and then see who is doing that either at your institution or.

The other thing that we didn't really talk about, Savannah, is there's a lot of organizations, right?

You know, be it professional societies or other organizations where you have like minded individuals who you may have people that are already doing some of these things or you know, that would be willing to offer advice or guidance or tips along the way.

And so that's another way.

But what I did is at my institution, I said, who is doing research that I find interesting?

Who is publishing papers that I think are impactful?

And I sent emails, I read your paper on X. I thought this part was really interesting.

I have this idea, why would you be interested in helping me with a project?

And I think for the most part, I mean, I think that people that are already doing research or are interested in, are usually happy to help other people do it as well.

Because in some ways it's a bit mutually beneficial because if I publish a paper, I would put, you know, my mentor on the paper as well.

And so then they, they get a publication as well as me getting a publication.

If you're tracking publications for publication purposes.

And so, and I think also there's something nice and I think being able to give back in that way.

I know that there are so many people that have helped me.

And so whenever there's somebody new coming into our department, you know, we'll have new residents or fellows come through.

I usually sit down and talk with them, say, here's some projects you can do.

Here's you know, how we can prepare these for conferences.

And I think having somebody that you can talk to and have guidance through the process is incredibly helpful.

And don't feel bad if the first person says no.

Maybe you knocked out knock on 10 doors before somebody says yes, but all you need is one.

Yes.

You know, you don't need.

You don't need 100 mentors.

You need help.

You or maybe two people.

If you're trying to do different things and, and work hard, you know, like, don't say, okay, I'm going to show up and then you don't come to the meeting or you're going to do whatever it is and you don't do the thing like show that you're interested and that you're willing to put in the work and effort.

And I think most people are willing.

Are willing to help.

Yeah, I agree.

Yes, most.

I feel like most people, most people in medicine are very excited about what they do and willing to share and connect and network and all of that, which is very nice.

It's a, it's a nice community to be in.

Are there any particular, like, resources that you recommend people just kind of check out or if they're kind of wanting to connect or find, you know, some information or good places to go to, kind of see what it's all about?

Yeah, I think, I think there's a lot of, a lot of resources out there.

One that your audience may or may not be aware of is the Point of Care Network or pocn.

They actually have a mentor and mentorship program.

So if you're an experienced PA and you're saying, gosh, this resonates with me.

I want someone to help mentor and show kind of what I've done or help follow in my footsteps.

There's options for people to sign up as mentors.

And if you're somebody who is saying, gosh, it sounds super interesting, but I don't know where to get started.

I need someone to kind of help guide me through the process.

They have options for mentees as well, so that's one.

I think I would look at different professional organizations.

If you're in a specialty, there's likely a specialty organization for you that may be filled with apps or some physicians and apps, or a blend of all different multidisciplinary team members.

And there may be somebody in one of those that would be interested in serving in some sort of a mentorship capacity, maybe even your colleagues, depending on where you're at, if they're seasoned, if everyone is new, then maybe that might be a little tougher.

But yeah, there's a lot of resources out there.

And honestly, if you see somebody, if you're reading a paper and it looks interesting, most people would be probably flattered that you took the time to read their paper and would be Willing to point you in some direction as well.

Nice.

That's a good tip.

Yeah.

Because most people's information is so accessible now that, I mean, like you said, the worst thing that happens is somebody says no and, you know, that's okay.

You move on.

So.

Yeah.

Well, thank you.

I said, if someone emailed you, Savannah, and they said, hey, you know, I saw your work on, you know, xyz, you know, this looks really great.

Can you, you know, point me towards more resources for that?

You probably wouldn't say, gosh, what an awful email.

You know, instead you'd probably say, well, this is great.

This person is interested, curious, wants to know more.

Yes.

So I think that.

I think that people are.

Are much kinder than maybe we might imagine they would be in our heads.

Perhaps.

Yes.

No, I completely agree.

And.

And a no is, it's not the end of the world.

It's okay.

Yeah.

Well, I think that the thing is too, I mean, even for perhaps new PA students, like, how do you decide?

Do I want to be in private practice or do I want to go into an academic institution?

Or, you know, like, there's so many different things to think about.

And I think that even how do you sort through different job offers and decide what one is a good fit or what are different benefits?

I think those aren't things we're taught necessarily in school that take a little bit of finesse to figure out.

And even having a mentor for that kind of thing to say, gosh, I'm brand new, I'm starting out, and I don't know what do I pick or what's.

Elements of a good cover letter or how do I prepare my resume in a way that might be meaningful for this job that I'm applying for.

I think are very useful skills.

Yes.

And all of that after school is just kind of overwhelming when you're trying to figure everything out.

And so I think you a lot of times, Penn, new PAs have an idea of kind of where they want to end up, but maybe aren't completely sure.

And they've spent the past two years, you know, just stressed out and studying.

And so it's a little.

It takes a while to get back to yourself and your goals and figuring all that out.

Yeah, for sure.

One thing that was kind of interesting, Savannah, literally two weeks after I graduated with my mba, I'm an avid runner.

I've done a lot of marathons and I enjoy.

It's something that helps me de stress and just.

It's good for mental well being and just overall Health.

And after I was running, I had a palpated.

A left superclavicular lymph node.

And I don't know if you remember from PA school, but that is not an area where you want to be palpating lymph nodes necessarily.

And so I went to see my PCP to get a biopsy, and it turns out I actually had Hodgkin's lymphoma, which was totally crazy, right?

Like, you never expect that.

That to be as a young.

A young, healthy, otherwise, pa, you know, Like, I didn't.

I felt like if you would have looked at my lifestyle, I eat healthy.

I literally run nearly every day and making a lot of, I think, great life choices in different areas.

And then that sort of thing happens.

And you think, oh, my gosh, like, what?

You know, why?

And I don't live near waste treatment plants or anything, you know, while that would be potentially maybe a contributing factor.

But one of the really unique things about that, I mean, being at Mayo, I felt so fortunate because we've got just a great group of oncologists to begin with.

So I was able to get connected with a great oncologist literally within a week.

And I had a port placed because I had a good friend who actually had gone through.

She had Hodgkin's, and she actually had stage four.

I had only stage two, because, thank goodness, this was one of the blessings of PA school.

I felt that I was like, okay, that's not an okay finding.

And I knew that I should go to go in.

But otherwise, I mean, if I hadn't gone through PA school, maybe I wouldn't even know it.

I would have just thought, oh, you know, no big deal.

This is, you know, just a weird lump or bump or whatever.

And it wasn't even something that was that big, you know.

And so.

So anyhow, one of the unique things was we do different trials, research trials, you know, for.

For this.

So it was kind of interesting to be on the patient end of things as well.

So there is this trial and.

And normally the chemotherapy that one would get for this would be something called abvd.

And the B stands for bleomycin, which can be a pretty lung toxic chemotherapeutic agent.

And there was a trial that was done that replaced that B1, the bleomycin, with a different A1 called ancitris or Rituximab.

And so that medication, essentially that replaced it is a CD30 targeted inhibitor.

So it's a little bit more effective.

And it was Tested in advanced stage Hodgkin's lymphoma patients, and they did better with that.

So they were trialing this in earlier stage Hodgkin's patients, which is me.

This trial, you know, and if you're.

If you do this, you don't have to get radiation and you get, you know, a couple of cycles less of.

Of chemotherapy.

And I thought, well, this sounds great.

Sign me up, you know, so.

So I did it.

And.

And one of the crazy things.

You see my hair here?

It's like, a lot shorter I actually have here.

So I'm so thankful for that.

That looks great.

It was kind of a grim scene.

I was down to, like, three.

Three eyelashes.

My sister was talking about, you know, like, the paint on eyeliner with a.

You know, eyelashes.

Magnetic ones.

And.

But you know what?

These are all just different phases.

And I thought, you know, if the only thing I'm dealing with is.

Is hair loss as a result of chemo, there.

There are worse things in life.

And I'm so lucky to be able to have a cancer that.

That's curable.

Like, a lot of cancers, you can't necessarily toss around those sorts of terms.

But, yeah, so I went through a couple months of chemotherapy, and then the next couple of months, I got a medication called nivolumab to help essentially build up my immune response.

So this new year started out with negative PET scans, which is great.

So I'm fully in remission.

But it was another one of those kind of hidden benefits of being a PA I think if I would have gone a different direction or if I would have only had my MBA or done something else entirely, I probably would have never even thought to give that a second thought.

So, yeah, not something that one ever hopes to encounter in their life.

I mean, you kind of imagine that you might notice that in a patient, perhaps in never imagining yourself as the patient.

But.

Yeah.

So a side benefit of being a.

PA that is wild.

And actually, you're the second PA I know who has that exact same story.

There's another derm PA I know his name is Jesse and he's awesome, but he exact same story.

Notice a lot.

I mean, were you pretty sure, like, you knew what it was or had an idea?

You know, how you're, like, worried, but you're like, you know, maybe it's not like, I hope that it's not, but you kind of know that that's not a great thing.

And then the pathology, before they called me, said, Reed Sternberg cells.

And I was like, man, that's pathognomonic for Hodgkin's, you know, So I knew for sure that that's what it was.

And I. I hoped against hope that it was just some sort of benign thing and that, you know, maybe I had Epstein Barr or something, you know, I don't know, but it was.

Yeah, you sort of have that, like, sort of thinking, feeling like maybe this is not a really great thing, but you hope for all the things that it could be that aren't bad.

Yeah, that's what Jesse said.

He even said he put it off for a little bit because he was like, I'm healthy.

I'm young.

You'll go away.

And then ended up going in and Hodgkin's, which.

That's maybe one of the downsides of being in medicine.

Plus, side downside is you sometimes know too much.

Yeah.

And that can be a difficult place to be in, too.

But thank you for sharing that.

That's crazy that that was your experience, but I'm so glad you're doing well.

I had such a good hematologist, great oncology team here at Mayo, and I know some people feel incredibly unwell with.

With chemotherapy, but I felt fine.

I worked full time through.

Through the whole thing.

I.

You know, it was.

My hair was looking a little.

A little dicey there, certainly kind of towards the end, but, you know, these sorts of things regrow, and it comes back.

And so, yeah, I felt so fortunate to have great colleagues who are so supportive and willing to flex our scheduling around days that I need to get chemotherapy.

And, of course, this was in the midst of COVID Right.

You know, and everything else is going down.

So it was definitely a very.

A very crazy year.

But, you know, at the end of it, I feel like I felt so fortunate.

You know, God is still good at the end of the day.

Everything worked out, and I thought, you know, you never imagine or expect some of these hiccups that come in life, but.

But, you know, so fortunate just to be alive and to be here and to be able to do something meaningful like help patients.

And I think it gives you maybe a degree of empathy or, you know, appreciation for things that people go through that maybe you don't otherwise.

Yeah.

I'd like to think I'm a reasonably complex, compassionate or empathetic person at baseline, but something like that really, I think, has helped me value the people in my life and.

And try to even more so understand that everyone's going through something.

We May not necessarily know what it is, but if we can choose to be kind and listen and, you know, everyone's fighting a different battle.

So, yes, that is such a great perspective and I think definitely one that being in patient care, you kind of have to remember because sometimes we end up being the punching bag or, you know, where things get offloaded with patients.

But, you know, that's okay because we don't really know exactly how they're feeling or what's going on behind the scenes always.

So, I mean, I think that's a good lesson for anyone working in or interested in health care long term.

Yeah.

Yeah, for sure.

Well, okay, so you have these degrees and this kind of newfound perspective.

Where do you see your career going?

Do you continue cardiovascular surgery, do more research?

What's kind of your next step?

Yeah, well, I'm actively involved in a couple of research projects right now that I'm very excited to see how they turn out.

So I'm hopeful that it will work out in a positive way for the patients that are involved.

So more to come on that.

So maybe ask me and I'll give you the update.

But otherwise, I'm hoping to continue to grow personally and professionally throughout my career, whatever that may look like in the future.

And I don't know that if you would have asked me 10 years ago that I would be doing what I'm doing now, I would have said that.

And so I think it's so hard to imagine what the future would look like or what, you know, things might be or not.

But hopefully I'm continuing to explore things that forced me to grow and, and challenge myself as an individual and do things that ultimately are hopefully making the world better for those around us.

Yes, great, great goals.

Hopefully this brought you back to your PA school interview days, or maybe not quite as stressful, but no, no, I.

Actually really love interviews.

I feel like it gets you, it gives you a chance.

Because in many ways I think people get nervous about interviews, but really, I think interviews are kind of a two way street.

Right.

Because especially if you're interviewing for something like this is kind of a conversation.

Right?

You know, I get to hear a little bit about your background, you get to hear about my.

But for interviews, it's kind of maybe like a marriage in some ways in that you have to kind of decide, are they the right fit for you?

And they have to decide, are you the right fit for them?

And if it doesn't work either way, I feel like then you might not be in a scenario where you're ultimately going to be very happy.

And I've told many of the students that have spent time with me.

When I graduated from school, I said the three things I didn't want to do was anything cardiology, anything pulmonology, or anything with col. Those are like my three nos.

And I thought, I'm going to be in sports medicine or gi.

Those are like the two things that I thought I loved.

And now I'm in cardiology and I take call regularly and I love it.

I tell people it's everything I never knew that I wanted to do.

And I think in part it's because I'm surrounded by people that really love the job, that are passionate about it, that really bring a lot of value into my life.

And I really think that your love of a job or a career in many ways depends on who you're with.

I think you could absolutely love a specialty that you didn't think you would love if you're with great people.

And I think you could be in the specialty that you absolutely think you would love and be surrounded by people that just aren't the right fit and end up not liking that specialty.

So I think maybe one bit of advice I would perhaps give to students, perhaps, or people who are looking for a job is really see what that fit looks like.

Can you see yourself working with these people day in and day out?

Is this an environment where you feel like you'd be supported, that there's opportunity for growth, where you sense some degree of collegiality?

Because that sort of thing, you don't have as much of an influence to change.

And so if you can find a place where you feel like this is home, that's a great place to be, regardless of whatever that specialty is.

And if you have people that you think that you're going to love working with or that you feel supported in, I'll bet you'd love that specialty even if it's not something you thought you'd like initially.

Yes, totally agree.

And I think that was one of my kind of deal breakers when I was looking at jobs was who I was working with.

Because even if it was a specialty I loved it.

Just, it wasn't worth being miserable or not happy with that relationship because it is, you know, you're going to have a relationship with the physician, with other people in that office or setting.

And that's really important for, I mean, you should enjoy your job as much as possible.

Maybe not every single day, but most days.

Yeah.

I consider all of the gals that I work with really good friends of mine.

We do a lot of things outside of work and I think that that sort of environment or setup is just wonderful.

I know I can call them.

If I called them right now and said this is an emergency I have going on, they would be there in a heartbeat.

And to have that degree of support amongst people is a really great thing.

That's wonderful when you can find it.

So if you find that, stay there, that's a great place to be.

That happened to me this week.

My 3 year old was throwing up all night and at 6am I texted my physician and I was like, hey, I think I have to stay home.

I'm so sorry, I've never taken a sick day in six years.

And she was like, we got you.

That's what she texted me back.

We got you, don't worry about it.

And I have never been more thankful for everyone at work.

They handled it.

They split my patience divided and conquered.

And you know, that was such a relief to me just to have that support.

So I just want like from me and from Sarah, I want you guys listening to hear that there are great jobs out there that will support you and be like, I mean, I consider mine like a family and close friends like you described too.

So you don't have to settle for something that is not, you know, going to give you that environment that you're.

Looking for in your career as, you know, as you move forward.

I think it's a very exciting time to be a PA and oh yeah, there's lots of opportunities for and I think there will probably be roles for PAs in the next couple years that we wouldn't have even imagined as roles, especially with the advent of artificial intelligence and you know, more move towards digital platforms and virtual visits and things like that.

I think that the role will continue to evolve and transform and it's exciting to be a PA at this time.

Oh, I totally agree.

Thank you so much.