What happens when your family doesn’t fit the template; and you stop trying to force it? In this candid conversation, holistic family consultant Jen Gerardy joins Tonya to talk about parenting as a queer, non-monogamous, neurodivergent-embracing human — and why the goal isn’t to “fix” yourself or your kids, but to design relationships that work for the people who live inside them. We unpack best practices for talking to kids about adult relationships, the difference between cheating and ethical non-monogamy, and the relief that comes when you refuse to pathologize who you are. If you’ve ever felt like you had to hide parts of yourself to be welcomed in a parenting space, this one’s a deep breath.

Episode Highlights

• [00:00] “Who are your freaks?” — Jen’s people and why questioning norms can make you a better parent
• [07:08] Judgment, protection, and why compassion (even for the judgy folks) matters
• [11:16] Coming out to yourself as non-monogamous while parenting: what changed (and what didn’t)
• [17:06] Best practices 101: secrets vs. surprises, introducing partners, and centering child wellbeing
• [25:28] Rethinking “the village”: expanding who cares for a child beyond narrow roles
• [29:13] Stop pathologizing people: challenges ≠ you being the problem
• [31:29] The line to remember: “If the world isn’t set up for you, you’ll face more challenges — and you’re still not the problem”

Leading with Curiosity (Not Compliance)

• Ditch the scripts. Much of our parenting comes from inherited rules that don’t fit our families. Jen invites us to swap “what should I do?” for “what helps everyone thrive here?” That shift — from compliance to curiosity — changes everything.
• Secrets are never child-sized. If your structure asks a child to keep a secret about an adult relationship, that’s a red flag. Jen’s rule: surprises are fine; secrets aren’t developmentally appropriate.
• Design for real people. Whether you’re monogamous or not, widen your idea of “the village.” Ask: which trusted adults help this child feel loved, safe, and supported — and how can we make that care intentional?

Building Belonging for Poly Parents (Why It’s Different and Needed)

Ethically non-monogamous (ENM) or polyamorous parents often have to censor core parts of their identity to access mainstream parenting spaces. Jen’s community flips that: no pathologizing, no moral litmus tests. Just child-centered, consent-based support.

• Psychological safety first. Clear norms (curiosity over judgment, “secrets vs. surprises,” no advice-dumping) create room to be fully seen without bracing for backlash.
• Privacy without hiding. Parents can be out about structure inside the group while choosing their comfort level outside it. No asking kids to carry adult secrets.
• Designed for real life. Twice-monthly Zooms welcome “life-in-progress” (headphones while making dinner, cameras off, kids nearby) so participation is actually doable.
• Best-practice scaffolding. Gentle guidance on introducing partners, language for kids, and school/admin logistics centers child wellbeing and consent.
• Expanded village. The community normalizes broader caregiving constellations (aunts, partners, close friends) and helps families design intentional roles and boundaries.

The result: fewer shame spirals, more resourced parents, and kids who grow up with clear language, consistent care, and a community that fits the family they actually have.

Meet Our Guest

Jen Gerardy is a holistic family consultant who helps queer, non-monogamous, and neurodiverse families build joyful, connected relationships without shame and without erasing any part of who they are. She leads an online community for ENM/poly parents, offers coaching and workshops, and creates practical resources that center compassion, consent, and child wellbeing.

Meet Your Host

Tonya Kubo is a community strategist, marketing consultant, and rebel with a cause: helping people find the place where they truly belong. For nearly two decades, she’s built online spaces that feel less like comment sections and more like chosen family. She’s the fixer you call when your Facebook group has gone straight-up Lord of the Flies and the bouncer at the door of internet nonsense. As the host of Find Your Freaks, Tonya brings together unconventional thinkers and bridge-builders who know “normal” was never the point. Her favorite spaces? The ones where the freak flags fly high.

Key Quotes

• “If the world isn’t set up for you, you’ll face more challenges—and it’s not because you’re the problem.” — Jen Gerardy
• “Cheating and ethical non-monogamy are not the same thing. Consent is the difference.” — Jen Gerardy
• “Secrets aren’t developmentally appropriate for children. Surprises are fine. Secrets are not.” — Jen Gerardy
• “Design the family you have. Not the one a book imagined.” — Tonya Kubo

Links & Mentions

• Jen Gerardy — Holistic Family Consultant (coaching, groups, resources)
• Free Workbook: Getting Your Needs Met (mentioned at ~43:16)
• Humane Marketing by Sarah Santacroce — a kinder way to do business (Jen’s shout-out)
• Polyamory Parenting 101 — YouTube video series with Jen and psychologist Dr. David PasCale Hague

If any link is missing, ping us and we’ll connect you directly with Jen.

Let’s Stay Freaky

👥 Facebook Group: https://tonya.link/group

💼 LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/tonyakubo

📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/tonyakubo/

🌐 Website: https://findyourfreaks.com

Support the Show

If Find Your Freaks matters to you, help us keep it ad-free by buying us a coffee (or two!). Every dollar goes to production so more weirdos can find their people.

You can purchase Find Your Freaks merchandise online through Abilities and Attitudes.

What’s Next

Join Tonya next time to unpack how to apply this episode to your own life and the spaces you lead.

know who they are yet. I am Tanya. This way I get appropriately identified and you can you say your last name for me, Jen?

Jen Gerardy.

Gerardy, okay, that is how I was going to say it, but it's always nice to be able to be aware of saying people's name correctly and appropriately. All right, we're gonna get started. Editors, this is Parenting Off Script with Jen Gerardi, and we're gonna get started in five, four, three, two, one. We love to talk about community, how to build it, grow it, sustain it, and today we are gonna be talking about what happens when you parent outside the lines.

when your very existence challenges the mainstream idea of what a good family looks like. And honestly, I'm expecting a little hate mail here. I'm totally comfortable with hate mail. You can send that to info at tonyacoubo.com and we'll be happy to get in touch with you. Jen, I want to get started today by asking the big question. Who are your freaks? Why do you love them?

Well, I love freaks in general because it's what makes people interesting. What makes people freaks is what makes them unique and special and that gets my curiosity going. But especially my freaks are the ethically non-monogamous or polyamorous parents. And I love them because when people question all of the things that they've been indoctrinated with about relationships with adults

They tend to also carry that over into questioning the things they've been indoctrinated with about relationships with their children. And so they create family dynamics with adults and the kids that are unique and really suited to the people that are involved. And they just really critically think and get curious about what everybody needs and how everybody is going to thrive together. And I love that.

Oh my gosh, there are so much to unpack just in that what? 90, not even 90 second response. So Jen, first of all, we should let people know your last name, right? So you're Gingerardy. You refer to yourself as a holistic family consultant who helps queer, non-monogamous and non-divergent, not neurodiverse. Let me try that again. You are Gingerardy and you refer to yourself as a holistic family consultant who helps queer, non-monogamous and neurodiverse families build joyful.

connected relationships without shame and without erasing any part of who they are. And what you were just talking about is how so much of what we bring into the parenting dynamic comes from how we were parented ourselves.

Absolutely. Yeah, I mean all of us get programmed with whatever happened to us in our lives, you know, and a lot of that comes from our how we were parented, but it could also come from, you know, society, media, the books we've read, other impacts on our lives. And a lot of people, all of us, if we don't think about it, we follow those scripts, right? We follow those scripts in all of our relationships. And some of them are helpful.

And some of them are super not helpful and super don't feel good, especially if you or your child is somebody who doesn't follow the rules.

Yeah, so give me an example of what that looks like in your experience.

Well, so the person who brought me to this work is my now nine and half, almost 10 year old actually. And you know, I read lots of books when I was pregnant with him and I was like, okay, I've got this down. I know what I'm gonna do. And then he was born and he was like, I will not sleep without touching an adult. It's just not gonna happen. You wanna sleep? I'm gonna be with you.

We had... We had a Velcro baby too!

Yeah, and the thing that happened, you know, so I was faced with a point where I could either try to force that and he would be miserable and I would be miserable and nobody would sleep and everybody would cry or I could start to do some research about how else that could look and start to consider how else I could take care of myself.

Mm-hmm.

with the understanding that there were not going to be long periods of time where my baby was sleeping peacefully in some other room for a long time. Eventually he started to sleep in another room. But as an infant, know, once I made my peace with that, he slept great. I actually slept fantastic with him curled up against me. And we started to be able to navigate the world together in a way that actually fit him and me.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

And that's not to say that was like a light switch, that was like the first step on a journey that has been a decade long. But that was my invitation. That was my invitation into a world that has led me to completely understand myself and my identities differently. That has led me to find community that fits me as a person and to be whole in the world myself for the first time in my life, to be wholly myself.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

And all of that is because of being invited to consider that my child might not conform to what a book said he was going to be.

Right, because a book is quite honestly written for the masses, right? Even though those of us who are writers always told we write to one ideal reader, it is humanly impossible for the entire world's population to fit the profile of your one ideal reader. And I think, you know, I always have said, and we won't make this a whole lot about just the parenting journey, because I think the parenting journey is important to discuss simply because the parenting journey

oftentimes at the loneliest period in our lives until we find that place where we fit in. We all need parenting friends. It is so hard to parent alone. But on that parenting journey, there is so I feel like the world feels quite free to judge you and your choices in a most extreme way when you become pregnant as a woman and when you parent.

I have never seen anybody feel so free to tell people what is absolutely right and absolutely wrong with their choices as they do in those two specific life circumstances. Was that your experience as well or do you feel like what you were carrying was entirely inborn and just driven from yourself?

No, that was absolutely my experience. I think it comes from a good place. compassion is like the basis of everything that I do. Even compassion for the people who piss me off by judging me. But I think it comes from an intention to protect children. Because most of us feel a sense of responsibility towards children generally, not only towards our own offspring.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

think it's like a social good if children come out okay. And so therefore we have some kind, we feel some sense of responsibility if someone, if we think someone is harming a child. And I think that's where it comes from. And most of us just have not learned how to hold curiosity and compassion for something even if we think it's wrong.

Mm-hmm.

Right!

so that we can figure out where it's coming from and whether it actually is causing harm and someone maybe needs support to learn another way. Or if actually maybe there's room for us to learn something new about what is a healthy and appropriate way to parent. And I think you also, you said something really important there about the loneliness of parenting. so the reason, so I started out supporting parents more broadly.

And the reason that I have started to work with my little niche, my queer and non-monogamous and neurodivergent folks, is because the thing that I have seen is that, everyone needs parenting community. And most of the parenting community that exists is sort of based on you like broadly having a similar life to the other parents in a group. And so the thing that I've seen is that especially the non-monogamous folks, but really all three of those groups,

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

is in order to have parent friends, they often have to like just sort of not mention this part about their own identities in order to be accepted in the parenting groups. And so it's like they have some community maybe and they maybe get answers to some of their parenting questions, but they can't be fully themselves in that space. And that's part where I was like, we need spaces where we not only have parenting friends, but we have spaces where we can be all of ourselves.

all of the things and nobody is going to say that you you're evil because there are three parents or you know two parents and some other involved adults who don't get called parents or you know whatever the structure looks like in an individual family.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and so there's the, what I'm thinking about, right, is how much morality plays in parenting in general, right, how we parent our children, how we view who is a good parent, who is a bad parent, what are good choices, what are bad choices. And, you know, to some degree, morality is something we all have to come to terms with on our own.

I think it would be lazy to make this conversation one about morality because really what you're talking about is this very inborn natural human desire to connect at a very base level, regardless of what you're doing in life. There's that base level of connection, having alignment, feeling like you can just take a deep breath and just be with somebody and not have to couch.

and censor and all of that. I mean, I think of my time early in parenting and feeling like I couldn't talk to anybody. I couldn't open up to anyone because everything I was doing at that point felt like a landmine. My feeding choices felt like a landmine. My sleeping arrangements felt like a landmine. How I diapered my stinking baby felt like it was opening me up for a lecture.

And so I would love if you could just walk us through a little bit of what that was like for you as this, however it came about, because I don't exactly know at what point in parenting you chose to embrace a non-monogamous path and what that looked like, but I'm curious at what it was like before you felt like you could fully be present with your parenting friends versus after.

So think in some ways I've had this easier than some people. When my kids were born, I was in a monogamous relationship. And so my very early parenting community, the non-monogamy was not a part of what I was looking for or what I felt didn't belong. And as I started to understand that that was part of me, I had known that was a part of me and I had just thought I

wasn't allowed to be non-monogamous and so I had just kept it in the closet and not acted on it for a long time. So as I started to rediscover that part of myself and realize that it was not something that I could like make go away, that it was still there even if I wasn't acting on it, I first started to find that community in like friendships and like adult support groups and things like that.

Fair.

Mm-hmm.

the like sigh of relief of just being able to be fully myself and not need to try to fit into some suburban mom box that I was largely in at that point. That was such a huge point of growth for me to be like, I actually can be fully myself and have people accept me. And then I started to find that a lot of the people that I was connecting with in that way weren't parents.

Mm-hmm.

And so they just didn't understand that part of my life. It wasn't that it wasn't accepted. They just were like, okay, I have no idea what you're talking about. And in particular, as I started to actively practice non-monogamy and started to consider, do I introduce someone to my kids? At what point do I do that? What do I tell my kids about who I am? What do I tell them about who other adults in their life are?

Mm-hmm. Bye.

Yeah

Mm-hmm

How do I, you know, am I gonna be super out publicly? Which obviously now that I do this for work, I am very out and very public about it. But that's, know, as I started to encounter those kinds of questions and like, what do I do if somebody tells my kid that our family's weird or wrong or something like that. And so as I started to encounter those things, the adults that I knew who were very versed in polyamory, you know, adult relationships.

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

they were just kind of like, yeah, I don't know, I don't have kids. So that's a you problem.

Can I just pause you for a second to say I appreciate those friends because I only know of one person that I've encountered in my entire 15 years of parenting who had the self-awareness to say, I'm not a parent, that's a you problem. I have found that the most vocal parenting experts are the people who don't have kids.

Yeah, that's true. That's true. And I, and absolutely all of the appreciation to people who are like, yeah, I don't know the answer to your question, ask somebody else. And then I started, so then I did meet a couple of people who were polyamorous and also had kids. And one friend in particular, he had kids relatively recently and in a relationship that's already polyamorous. And so the things he's navigating are completely different because he's navigating like,

No.

from pregnancy onward, what are these other partners relationship with the kids gonna be and how do we talk to our families about that and what happens if our families are not supportive of that and what do we call this person to our kids and can we put them on the authorized list to pick up from daycare and so just like totally and I was like, okay, well there are multiple experiences of how you can be a non-monogamous parent.

Mm-hmm.

Mm.

And he was encountering the same thing of like, he'd ask somebody and they'd be like, I have no idea. That was not my experience. And so he and I together were like, okay, well, maybe we should have a place for people to ask these questions. And that was the seed of like this particular community building of like, there's like a, we're like a little pod of people who need a space where we can be all of us and all of our experiences.

Right!

Mm-hmm.

learn from each other and laugh together and cry together and just not have to pretend to be anything or not together.

And that sounds like every parent's dream. Like can't speak for dads except for what my husband tells me about being a dad. But I can speak for the moms that I, the mom I am, the moms who I have known. And it's like, that's the dream. The dream is to just walk into a room with other people who are day to day trying to do the hard stuff that you're trying to do. And don't expect you to pretend it's easy or harder or any different.

than however it is. So you mentioned finding the community. What does that community look like now? Is it in person? Is it online? How are you connecting with these other parents at this point?

Yeah, so it's mostly online in part because that makes it easier for parents. So somebody can be like listening on headphones while making their kid dinner or something like that. It just makes it so much easier for people to actually make it. So we meet twice a month on Zoom. And like I said, we're very happy to have people doing whatever life parenting things they need to do and still be in community because that's the reality of the lives we're living.

Mm-hmm.

And also because that allows us to be open to people who don't live near us physically. And we're planning a get together in person for July. So if you are in the Denver metro area, you can reach out to me and find the details about that. But in general, we're open to people anywhere in the world that the time zone lines up for. And we meet twice a month virtually.

We've sort of settled into, you know, it's only been a few months, so we're still kind of figuring out what the community needs. We've sort of settled into a little bit of a like, introduce each other, invite if anybody came with something specific, like I am dealing with a challenge right now and I need some help, then we offer space for that first. And then I'll kind of have some like icebreaker or discussion questions in my back pocket if there's.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

for more than whatever people bring. So we've had discussions on all kinds of things, know, mostly related to either how people talk to their kids about their adult relationships or how they want to structure those things or how they talk to other adults about their kids and like...

weaving all of that because one of the things that's really great about the polyamory community is that we've stepped outside of the like one size fits all about relationships. And so different people have different structures in their lives that work for them. And so just sort of coming with like, I think this is what I want, but I'm not sure how to make that happen. And then just kind of having the wisdom of the group of like, have you considered?

this impact or have you talked to somebody about this and just kind of bringing that like helping somebody think through it so that then they can be like, okay, I think I'm ready to do what's right for me and for my family.

Okay, so it sounds like you have, like what I just heard is you have a keen sense of the problem that everybody is trying to solve when they show up to the meeting, right? Like they are coming maybe for just connection, but probably with all the things that they had to do that day, they made time because there was some kind of problem to solve or some specific need that they were hoping to get filled. And so you,

you kick it off, right, introductions, then you kick it off like, okay, who has an immediate need? So that if you're only getting together twice a month, and this is really the only place where they can truly be themselves and be honest about all parts of their lives, they get that addressed immediately. Then you go into sort of icebreaker discussion time. And what I really loved about what you were just sharing is it sounds to me like, because this is already,

outside of the box because this is already, we'll just say beyond what anybody would consider normal. It almost makes it an even safer place to talk about all the things. Is that how you feel? Is that what you've heard?

Yeah, that's definitely how I feel is that the group has been so far really, really good at leading with curiosity and questions. you know, there are certainly things that are widely considered best practices in polyamory. And I'm actually working with another colleague who's a researcher.

we're gonna put together some polyamory parenting 101 videos over the summer to kind of the most frequently asked questions when people are coming out or making changes to their lives. There are some things that are widely considered best practices that do a good job of protecting the interests of children as well as creating space for the adults. so it's easy in that kind of situation for somebody to just launch in with like,

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

you're doing it wrong, this is the correct way to do the thing. And it's been really wonderful to see that the people who are coming to the group regularly, and especially the people who come, even when they're not having a big crisis and they're coming to support other people, have been doing a really great job of leading with curiosity about, you know, why that, how's that gonna work for everybody in your family? Have you considered this? Have you thought about this?

and sort of helping people think through it rather than like prescriptively saying this is the best practice, do it this way. And I think that's important for everyone. But especially when you're not following the norm, having the space to really think about what is right for you is the most important thing. More important than what the outcome ends up being, is the space to really...

Mm-hmm

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Hmm.

be intentional and unpack all of that like it has to be this way stuff that you're programmed with so that you can just really consider like in my family this is what is right for us.

So you mentioned that there's a few things that are considered best practices. You want to give us like two or three just for those who honestly, this may be the first time they've ever even heard the idea that there are people who openly live in non-monogamous relationships. Cause let's be real, a large percentage of US society alone lives a non-monogamous lifestyle. They just might be a little bit more secretive and even their partners don't necessarily know. So that's.

not new information. I think the new information is, this is a choice you can make. And by the way, you don't actually lie to people about it. What would be a couple of those best practices?

Yeah.

So, I mean, that's one is that cheating is not the same as ethical, consensual, non-monogamy or polyamory. So if there's non-monogamy happening in your life and anybody's lying about it, that's not what I'm talking about. And I'm not going to go too far into that because there's a lot of other people who talk about that with the adult relationships. But just to be very clear for anybody who's hearing about this the first time,

Okay? Right.

If there is lying about it happening, that's not what I'm talking about and that's not what I support in any way, or form. As far as the parenting best practices go, one of the things that's really a common question is like, should I tell my, should I come out to my kids basically? Because there are some people in which, you know, the bioparents or the, you know, step-parent and bioparent or whatever that is, they look to the outside world like a monogamous couple and

Mm-hmm.

and the other people they date don't have any kind of relationship with their kids. And that is one structure that works for some people. And sometimes people are like, but I wanna tell my kids, or I wanna introduce this person to my kids, should I do that? And the first and probably most important consideration there is what is it that you're asking your kids to do? And if you are going to then ask your kids to keep a secret about who that person is and not like,

say something at school or be out publicly, don't tell your kids. It is not appropriate to ask a child to keep a secret. So that's a really important first best practice. Another piece that comes up frequently is with people are afraid that if they introduce their child to someone and then they eventually break up that that will hurt their child. And

Mm.

Mm-hmm.

So there's not like a single right answer about whether or when you introduce someone to a child, but it is important to talk with the other adult before they meet your child about what that would be like. And consider what is it that that person wants from a relationship with your child or is willing to put in in terms of time and energy and care and be intentional.

Mm-hmm.

about whether that is a good match with what you want for your child. And that doesn't necessarily mean that every person ends up being involved in your child's life for the rest of time or something like that. One of the things I think is really wonderful to consider is an expansive idea of the idea of parent. So in a monogamous world, we think of parent as only

Mm-hmm.

Mm.

either the biological parent, an adoptive parent, or a step-parent. And we really don't have, but any of those arrangements, it's one or two adults, and maybe there's another household with one or two adults, but that's it. And the reality is monogamous families have aunts and uncles and friends, hopefully, and...

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

friends' parents and grandparents and maybe neighbors and teachers. There's a whole ecosystem of adults who are caring for a child. And the isolation happens in part because all of those bits of that ecosystem are separated and don't talk to each other.

Mm-hmm.

Or they only are allowed to give this very narrow piece of care in a child's life. And maybe there are needs that are going unmet in that ecosystem. And so I want to invite parents, even if they're not polyamorous, even if they're monogamous, to have an expanded idea of this concept of who cares for a child and what does that look like. And is it possible for someone who's important to you

Mm-hmm.

an adult who's important to you to also be important to your child, regardless of what kind of relationship you have with that adult, can there be an invitation to have more adults who love a child and are offering care and support to a child and worry a little bit less about what definition we give those relationships up between the adults?

Mm-hmm.

and more about when we're thinking about whether somebody should be in a child's life, thinking about how are they going to support the child's development and that being the most important thing.

Mm-hmm.

I just want to take what you said. want to clip the beginning and the end and just package that out for everyone. Because I feel like what you're really advocating, right, is intentionality around not just how you parent in terms of, know, if I tell my child, yes to Cheerios for breakfast or no to Cheerios for breakfast, what does that do to dinnertime tonight or whatever?

you

but just really think like being much more present. And I think what you're really saying is when you parent outside of the box already, you're just naturally thinking through a lot more if this, then that scenarios. Whereas those of us who all just say parent according to societal norms, so much is just flying by the seat of your pants. You just don't really think, right? Dad has a role because he is dad.

And that's just what society has. And then we've got grandma and grandpa and whoever. This expansive idea of who can speak into your child's life, who your child can love, who can love your child. Like, that's not that foreign to me because I was raised by a single mom who didn't have a lot of family support. Right? So there were a lot of aunts. think I was in some cases, I was in high, I was in college before I realized there was no blood relation between me and these people I had known since I could remember.

And as a married couple, two income household with a pretty extensive like work requirement, our kids were raised with a lot of other adults. And we laugh because my oldest, we used to laugh that for her, she had no particular connection to any one adult. It was just like insert trusted adult here and she was happy. And she's like that even now, right? It's like she was in a show on opening night.

You

I could have been there. Dad could have been there. Miss Denova, who's been caring for her since practically the day she was born, could have been there. And there's half a dozen other people. She was just as happy to have them in the audience as she would have anybody else. And honestly, it feels really good for me to know, regardless of how I feel, like did I want to be at opening night? You're darn sure I did. But

I didn't have to be all sad about nobody being in the audience for her or her feeling left out because of the perspective that she has on those other trusted adults. And so it's like so much of what you're saying feels like smart parenting in general.

It's almost like being polyamorous doesn't make you a bad parent. Shocking.

Well, that, that was, I'm not gonna lie. I was like, do I say that out loud or don't I? Right? Because to some degree, like how offensive is that to you if I go, so what you're telling me is, is your relationship choices that you're making because they're rooted, it sounds like in everybody being on the same page, on the same table, open conversations, mutual consent.

I loved specifically once you said, if you're asking your child to keep a secret, right? Like that's not appropriate. So you're not asking kids to be more developmentally advanced than they are. You're not asking them to take adult roles in the family dynamic. Yeah, I'm just going to argue that that doesn't sound as unhealthy as I think I have seen other people portray this particular lifestyle.

And that leads me to another question. This is something we talked about before we started recording, but you said something about how much different the conversations become when you're not trying to pathologize people's choices. Can you expand on what you mean by that?

Yeah, so this is something I see in with parents who are non-monogamous. I also see it pretty often with people who are neurodivergent or who have a neurodivergent child where, you know, they're having some kind of challenge and they go to their, you know, go to trusted expert, a doctor or a psychologist or a parenting forum or whatever it might be.

And they basically get told, well, if you were monogamous, you'd stop having challenges. Or if you, you know, made your child act less neurodivergent, they'd stop having challenges or something. As if, as if the cause, as if who you are or who your child is, is the cause of a challenge. And, I mean, obviously that's ridiculous.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

because people who are putting themselves in the narrowest possible normative box still have challenges parenting because shockingly parenting is challenging. Newsflash. And being a kid is challenging and being an adult is challenging. And sometimes it may be true. know, the kernel of truth there is that if you are a person, especially for neurodivergent people, if you are a person,

Yes!

Mm-hmm.

who the world is not well set up to support, you may experience more challenges than someone else. But that doesn't mean you are the problem.

you

Okay, I was gonna say, need you to say that again, because though, because I operate squarely in the midst of neurodiversity advocacy. This is not new information to me, but I do think that's new information to everyone else. I would love for you to just repeat that one more time for people who are like, whoa, whoa, whoa, what did she say? Like, I don't want them to have to rewind because seriously, like to you, this may be like, well, yeah, duh. But for so many people,

They have never heard that before. So if you can remember what you just said, try it again.

Yeah, if you are a person for whom the world is not a supportive and easy place, you may experience more challenges than other people do. And it's not because you are a problem. It's because the world is not set up to support you the way you need. And that's the whole point of this work, is to take that pathologizing out.

the idea that you are somehow the problem out and say, no, you are a perfectly valid person experiencing a challenge. How can we address that challenge in a way that supports who you are instead of trying to erase who you are?

curious when you have that conversation with parents for the first time. What are their reactions? How are they responding to hearing that?

If they have previously talked to other professionals who have pathologized them or their child, it's usually a sigh of relief of like, that's what I've been saying. I've been saying that I'm not the problem or my kid's not the problem. So sometimes it's a sigh of relief. Sometimes if that's kind of there, but they haven't thought through that yet themselves, sometimes there's a little bit of a,

Mm-hmm.

that you mean there's another way that I could think about this? And then sometimes they need to digest that a little bit before they're ready to go further. Because it is a new idea to a lot of people.

Do they ever argue? Yeah, do they ever argue with you? Like they're so entrenched in that, say, I don't know, neurotypical normative programming that they actually try to convince you, no, no, no, you're wrong. You should treat them more poorly.

Do you mean like like with their child that like my child actually is the problem kind of idea?

No, so I'll give you an example. when I'm talking to neurodivergent adults, and a lot of times people will come to me, they're newly diagnosed or their spouse is newly diagnosed because they know how openly my family lives in this space. The person who is neurodivergent, right? I'll say, yeah, well that's, know, you've got that problem. Yeah, that totally makes sense that that's that problem because of this, that and the other. Like for instance, moms oftentimes can cope really well.

until their kids get into school and they have to manage so many more calendars in their head, right? That's like a typical thing that's expected. Like mom's supposed to know when the field trip is, when the permission slips due, what the AR score is and have we done I Ready Tonight, all this stuff. And so these moms are like, I'm dropping balls left and right, right, I'm dropping balls left and right. And I'm like, well, yeah, I mean, there's only so much executive function to go around. And it sounds to me like you're using all you have to

Yeah, more executive function.

be a good employee, to keep the people fed and transported, because that's enough of a thing, that yeah, it would make sense that you would forget that tomorrow's Wear Green Day and the day after that's Crazy Hair Day, and they go, no, no, no, no, it's not okay, because Suzy's mom doesn't ever have a problem. mean, Suzy's mom went to school, like she took her kid to school looking like Cindy Lou Who, and I'm like, no, no, no, no, like I can't manage that.

No,

Like I just look at my kids and say, guess what? You're gonna learn right now that not everybody gets to dress up for crazy hair day. Cause I don't have the bandwidth to do that for you on top of everything else that I'm scheduling in this household. But they will try to argue with me that it's really not okay for them to say, there's only so much I can do, right? And that doesn't work for me. And so I was just curious if for you, by the time people actually come to you.

Are they already past that? They're already like, no, I've already accepted that the rest doesn't work for me and I am so desperate. Jen, help me figure out what does work. Or are they still in that point where they're trying to fit the normal box?

Sometimes I get each of those, I would say. Yeah, sometimes people come and they're like, there has to be another way. that's the sigh of relief of like, finally somebody who gets it. But yes, I do. And I hear all the time, I should be able to, especially from neurodivergent moms. That is the most common group that I hear that from. And, you know, I mean, is, that is the work.

Okay.

Mm-hmm.

that is the work is to bring the compassion to that and sometimes then we'll spend some time exploring, you know, where did that idea come from? And sometimes there's some grief there about the things that, you know, I really want my kid to participate in Crazy Hair Day. And it really, it hurts my heart to see them sad because my brain can't keep track of all this, right?

Right.

Mm-hmm.

It makes sense for that to be hard and it makes sense to resist that idea too. Like if I could just make myself better, like if I could just force myself more, then I could avoid my child feeling sadness and disappointment about not getting to participate in Crazy Hair Day. And that's like, I have so much empathy for that. It is a hard place to be.

Mm-hmm.

Well, and what you're saying is really, know, parenting is hard all by itself. Relationships as an adult are hard all by themselves. It sounds to me like a lot of what you talk about is really about learning almost how to reparent yourself as you're navigating all of this. Like all of that is hard individually and then when you bring it collectively,

I am definitely probably more apt than others to ask for help when I need it, because it's a survival mechanism. But it's like, of course you would need help. Of course you would need outside perspective. And so I'm curious, as we begin to wrap up, if somebody's listening and they're like, maybe number one, they're listening and they're like, I didn't even know these were choices. Like I had no idea that I had so many choices as an adult.

you

Or somebody is just willing to be curious, willing to explore the fact that other people live differently than they do. And maybe that doesn't make those people automatically evil, terrible, and awful. What would be one step they could take today to either learn more about their options or maybe unlearn the rigidity that they have been operating under? What would you suggest?

set up a call with me, let's talk about it. Because I think exactly what that path looks like depends a little bit on where somebody's coming from. If they are wanting to explore whether non-nogamy or polyamory would be right for their family, that might look a little different than if they're like, I'm neurodivergent and I want to explore how to get my needs met better. So rather than say like there's one size fits all.

Mm.

answer to that, would say shoot me an email or schedule a free 20 minute call with me and let's talk about it. You know, I'm not into pressure or something like that. I'll try to connect you with the right resources, answer your questions and you know, if it makes sense to help you work through those layers of that programming or of you know, learning how to relate with yourself differently so that you can

Yeah.

make those choices for yourself and your family, I'm happy to do that. And if there's some other resource I can direct you to that will answer some of those questions and help start those wheels turning, I'm happy to connect people with those as well. So yeah, let's say shoot me an email or schedule a call with me and I'll be happy to help.

That is super generous. And first we will have all of this information in the show notes. If you don't see the information you need for some reason, you can just reach out to us and our team and we will make sure to connect you with, with Jen. And so what I really appreciate about this is you could have given us a cute little soundbite that would have been totally appropriate to put on TikTok, right? But you're like leaning in to, I think the basis of this entire conversation, which is your mileage may vary.

you

Like what is right for me is not necessarily gonna be right for the person who comes after me. And so I just wanna say thank you for not giving the easy answer that would have applied to maybe 10 % of the population, but not everybody else. The next piece though is for the person who's listening right now, whether they're neurodivergent, polyamorous, or something that we don't even know about, but they're carrying shame, fear.

Maybe feeling isolated, especially because they're that plus their parents. What would you say to them?

I would say you're definitely not the only one. Even if your community is small, you're definitely not the only one. finding, you know, and also that your community doesn't necessarily need to share 100 % of the same experiences with you. But what matters is that your community is able to hold curiosity and compassion instead of judgment or telling you what to do. And...

That's what I do and what we do in my communities. And there are other communities doing that for other groups as well. And it matters. It matters that you find spaces in which you are able to be seen and valued for all of who you are, even if it's by people who don't necessarily share every single one of those identities. Just like we're having in this conversation, you're not polyamorous and yet here you are seeing me as a valid person.

And here you are giving me some really stinking good parenting advice, okay? Which by the way, you know, it's like minor 15 and almost 11. And some of what you've said, like really lands. Lands, not just because like, I never thought to do that. But some of the things are just things like, well, you we were flying by the seat of our pants and that just felt like a right choice. You know, the don't keep secrets, for instance. That's a big thing in our house.

Hahaha!

If anybody asks you to keep a secret, that person's not safe. We don't keep secrets. Even around birthdays and like gifts and stuff. It's like, okay, those are surprises, but those aren't secrets. But the other thing is we don't try to use the kit. Like I don't try to get the girls to tell me if daddy's planning a surprise for me. Cause I don't want them to sit in the middle of that sort of dynamic. It just doesn't feel healthy. I don't know if it is or isn't. I haven't even taken the time to look it up in books. It just doesn't.

make sense for our family so we don't do it. So I've appreciated some of the insight that you've provided. Now, we like to close our show with a rapid fire segment. It's just five fast questions, no wrong answers. Would you be up for that?

I would before that. want to offer people one other resource that's free. On my website, I have a workbook that's a free download that's about getting your needs met. So, and we talk about in that some of the skills, like you were talking about asking for help, which is a skill that is hard for a lot of people. And so it talks about both like what your needs might be, what beliefs you might have that make it harder to get them met and also what skills.

Sure, yeah.

you could maybe develop that might make it easier to get them met. And then like some creative problem solving and what to do if your need is in conflict with somebody else's need, which happens all the time in neurodivergent households in particular. So yeah, I wanna offer that. That's a free download on my website and it is not just for polyamorous families. That's just for anybody who would like to get more of their needs met or better, you just better understand what you need and how you might.

go about getting in it.

Yeah, because understanding better about what you need and how to get it met really is the first step in being able to ask for it effectively. So I love that. Thank you for offering that. I'm sure that our listeners are really going to benefit. So rapid fire segment where we let our freak flags fly. Finish this sentence. You're my kind of freak if.

You're weird and goofy and a little bit silly.

I like that. What is something you love that your friends just don't get?

God, so my mom's an archeologist and I grew up being dragged to digs. And in particular, there is, I'm also a knitter and a textile artist. And so like, I could go on for hours about ancient Peruvian textiles and your eyes would be glazed over and you would not care.

Mm-hmm.

All right, if you, like me, after you hear this, are going to go Google ancient Peruvian textiles, I just want to know I'm not alone because I'm such a geek for the deep rabbit holes of research. All right. So third question is what community would you infiltrate just to understand it better?

You

Ooh, young white men. I'm so confused.

That's a good one. We're just going to leave that there. That's like your that is your own private mic drop. How about what tool, ritual or practice helps you stay connected to your people?

The staying connected, I was going to say journaling and meditation, that's for my own, connected to myself. For staying connected to my people, just going and being in the community spaces regularly, like support groups and things like that, even when I don't need the support, just going and so I'm there just basking in the joy of being with my people regularly.

Mm-hmm.

There is something about that, right? Just being surrounded by your perfect people. All right, last question. Who is someone doing freakishly good work who you think deserves a bigger stage? Can be anybody.

Someone that I've connected with relatively recently, her name is Sarah Santa Croce and she runs Humane Marketing. And it is a shockingly affordable group for people who want to do business in a way that feels good and not icky. And I mean, I don't have a business degree. I'm trying to figure out how to do this thing in a way that feels good to me and to the people I work with.

and she is an incredible resource and she brings in incredible resources and she should have like 500 people in that membership.

You know, it's funny is I was actually in a summit with her a few years ago. She is absolutely delightful. And I don't think I've heard her name since. So thank you. Thank you for that. So Jen, this brings us to the end of our time together. And I just want to say thank you for your courage, for your perspective, and most of all, your voice, your voice on behalf of yourself and the life you live, but also for the members of your community.

she is.

And for those listening, if you've ever been made to feel like you don't belong or taught that somebody else doesn't, I just hope that this episode reminds you that staying true to yourself might actually be the greatest gift you can give to those around you, including your kids.