Most podcasters think success means making everyone happy. Neal Veglio, founder of Podknows Podcasting, reveals why that approach is killing your show before it even gets started. With over 25 years in audio and a track record of guaranteeing results for his clients, Neal shares the uncomfortable truth about what actually makes podcasts succeed. From his controversial take on guest interviews to why half your audience should hate your content, this conversation will challenge everything you think you know about growing a business podcast. If you're tired of playing it safe and ready to make real impact, this episode is your wake-up call.

What You'll Learn

• Why trying to please everyone guarantees podcast failure
• The character development process that makes hosts memorable and relatable
• Neal's controversial stance on why you should think twice about having guests
• How extreme niching led to 3,000 downloads for a basket weaving podcast
• The uncomfortable truth about podcast charts and why they don't matter
• Strategic approaches to finding and growing your ideal audience
• Why 50% of listeners should hate your show (and why that's good)

Resources

Guest Links:

• Neal's Business: https://podknows.co.uk/
• Neal's Podcast 'Podcasting Insights': https://www.podmastery.co/
• Neal's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nealveglio/

Podjunction Ecosystem:

• Podjunction Home: https://podjunction.com/
• Sadaf's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sadafbeynon/

It absolutely breaks my heart when I see someone excitedly announcing

the launch of their podcast,

and there are telltale signs that they haven't given it any thought whatsoever.

They've recorded a trailer and they've stuck it out in the world.

And I'm paraphrasing, but it will be something along the lines of, I'm

going to tell more stories in the business world by interviewing thought

leaders within the world of business.

You've just described 30,000 shows.

What's yours gonna do differently?

Hey there.

I'm Sadaf Beynon, and this is Podjunction podcast, the show where business

leaders share how they use podcasting to grow, connect, and build their brands.

Most business podcasts launched with big dreams and die quiet deaths.

But what if you had someone who'd been in audio since the 1990s, made

every mistake in the book and now guarantees results for their clients?

Today I'm talking to Neil Veglio, founder of Podknows Podcasting

and host of Podcasting Insights.

Neil, welcome to the show.

Thanks so much and, and thanks for throwing me right under the bus by saying

about all the mistakes I've made over the

You're welcome.

Thanks for that.

You're so welcome.

So Neil, let's jump in.

You worked in audio since the 1990s.

Um, how did that lead to launching Podknows and your own podcast?

I,

I,

love this question because it just gets it, it gives me a chance

to go right down memory lane.

So I, I started out in the radio industry.

I was doing, you know, local commercial radio in the mid nineties.

That's kind of where I learned to ply my trade.

With audio, I was always getting in trouble because I was not content with,

you know, grabbing the mic, talking on the radio and just doing it straight.

As, you know, the top four, we called them top 40 liner card jogs, and what

they were was basically they would read the liner cards that promoted

the breakfast show, or they would talk about the chart at the weekend, or

they would talk about something that was like doing the job of, you know,

keeping the radio station flowing.

And I was what they would call a maverick.

So I liked to experiment with audio and I did a lot of

production stuff, so it was skits.

Jokes, you know, I'd go into the other studio and record silly little bits and

pieces that I'd then play on the air.

And that was kind of where I started to get the idea that actually you can

make just a quick throwaway three hour show on a Sunday into something a bit

more engaging for the audience if you just put a bit more pre-production

and bit more planning into it.

And that kind of, I, I got a taste for what audio production and presentation

was and, and mixed those two together.

So I was never just a presenter.

I was also a bit of a producer as well.

And then as I sort of like developed in my career, right?

I moved to London, I got a couple of national radio station gigs and

they don't like that, they don't like people that sort of think outside the

box and do the playing in of audio.

So I had to be really clever about how I did it and started

to, you know, work with callers.

I'd got get callers on the app and I'd make them the characters and so

they would be doing the parts where.

Usually I'd be having like a zap or a sound effect or

something, or some, some skit.

And I'd actually be, you know, prepping them off air and saying, right,

okay, so you've called in from this.

What's your topic?

They'd tell me and I'd go, right, okay, so imagine.

And then I'd give them a scenario.

And so they then became the characters, um, which still didn't please my

bosses at the time very much, because they're like, can you just do the show?

Can you just do it straight?

I'm like, nah.

But what it did is it, it, it taught me quite early on that actually

characterization and storytelling is really important for audiences.

They love to, to be told the story and have everything sort of changing on them.

So, you know, having one voice on the air can be quite dull and you can tune out.

Whereas if there's lots of stuff going on, like different voices,

different things happening, some drama.

And, and believe me, I created a lot of fake drama as well through my callers.

I'd get them to say, oh, you know, say that you hate my show and you don't

like me, and then have a go at me.

And they'd be like, oh, this is so much fun.

Of course, I'm happy to say I hate you.

Yeah.

So it, it just taught me really early on that,

you know, one voice can still tell stories as long as you, you know, can

approach it from different directions.

And that's where, you know, as podcasting started to grow.

When I started out in the mid two thousands in podcasting,

really, it was kind of tech geeks.

They were talking about tech news.

In fact, one of my favorite shows at the time was called

twit this Week in Technology.

Um, and I used to listen to that and they were talking about

iPods and where technology was going in, in that direction.

And I just thought, this is, is, you know, interesting content,

but really boringly delivered.

And so I started to sort of experiment with how I could tell the same

sort of stories that I was telling.

You know, on the radio, but in podcast format and yeah, like you said in the

introduction, failed a lot, I'll be

I've read your LinkedIn posts.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Always.

I'm always too honest on LinkedIn.

Absolutely.

But yeah, it just, it, it gave me this, this passion for understanding

what worked and what didn't work.

And as I sort of developed that skillset and understood actually you can take

people that are not famous and make them interesting to their ideal audiences.

And that's kind of where Podknows came from.

Essentially, it was learning how to tell other people's stories,

using their voices, but with my own creativity added into the mix

hmm.

That's really fascinating, Neil, that's really fascinating.

If you don't mind just going back a little bit to what you were talking

about, your pre podcasting days, what was your favorite part about that?

in terms of the radio stuff, in terms of what I was doing

It's the storytelling and the voices and

so on and so forth.

cre, creating the drama was something I was really hooked into because

obviously, you know, I, I, I grew up watching a chap called Kenny Everett,

who was a big, I mean, he was on Capital Radio back in the, in the eighties.

That was kind of what he was famous for initially.

And he had a television show, and it was called the Kenny Everett Show.

The Kenny Everett experience, I think was the second series.

And, you know, he was out there like ridiculous.

I mean, you know, he died of AIDS in the end, bless him.

Um, but, you know, so he, he died very young, but the impact he made

in his twenties and early thirties before he died was, was massive.

I mean, he was breaking all the barriers and all the, you know,

some people called him indecent.

I don't think he was ever indecent.

He just pushed the envelope

Yeah.

I. You know, listening and seeing what he was doing with characters and with just

setting the scene with ambience and tone.

And he had this character called Captain Kremen, who was meant to be a, you know,

a, a a, you know, like Hitchhiker's guy to the galaxy, just this chap that was going

around the universe in his spaceship.

And he used speeding up tape to make alien noises and alien

voices and things like that.

And I love that.

I hated the idea of just saying, oh, that was Britney Spears

and here's Justin Timberlake.

I just wasn't really engaged by that whatsoever, but I was engaged

by, here's Shirley from Watford.

Go ahead, Shirley.

What you gotta say?

Oh, I hate your show.

You are so rude.

Great.

Okay.

And just go with that.

Like, okay, what, why, what, what have I done now, Shirley?

What?

You know, and just having that engagement of.

Making people into characters and, and really helping them to find their voices.

They would come on again.

Like they, they would, it wasn't a case of, all right, well I've called

up the radio, I feel cool now.

That's good.

I've had a chance to be on the radio and I played this character.

It was like, I want to do this every week.

And so they would become recurrent callers.

They would, you know, and, and they would look for the, the more they

would come on the air, the less I'd have to coach them because they would

like totally buy into their character.

And that's where sort of like the whole thing around characterization,

you know, in what I do now comes from is, you know, when, when I

talk to people and I say, right, we, we need to develop your character.

They're like, well, this isn't friends.

And you know, I'm not Rachel.

I don't need to to be a character.

I'm, and I'm like, well, you do because the things that you think you are, you

know, you are famous for or that you want to be known for, they might not

be that engaging for your audience, but the things you don't talk about,

these might actually be your character.

So for example, if you are.

Really scatty or forgetful or, you know, you, you have this

bizarre affinity with Crocs.

You know, that's the stuff that you don't want to bring out on your show.

But actually those are the things that make you relatable, and those

are the things your listeners are gonna really hook into.

Like, oh, what, why does this woman like Crocs?

Nobody likes Crocs.

You know, they're, they're a blight on, on humanity, but it, it's, it's little subtle

things like that where when you start to develop that character, that's what

makes for entertaining and engaging audio.

I really like what you've said, 'cause you talk, you know, it's very clear that you

loved having that, um, dramatization part of part of the radio, and you, you were

engaging, you were making it engaging, and you were building an audience of

people who wanted to keep coming back, um, you know, to be on the radio.

I, and I think those are important lessons for podcasting as well.

Like they do translate.

You need to love what you do.

You need to be able to engage with the, the content that you are, uh, presenting

and build an audience, uh, a community that will keep coming back for more.

Absolutely.

I, I think people really can see through fake enthusiasm, and I think this is what

I always try and tell people is, you know.

Starting a podcast, it's kind of become like the thing, hasn't it?

Oh, I, I need to do a podcast for my business, or I need to do a podcast

to promote this thing that I'm doing.

And it's like, well, yeah, that's really useful and it's great and

it's tremendous fun, but you've gotta be doing it for the right reasons.

You've got to really want to do it.

You've gotta be able to understand that this isn't, you know,

this isn't just turning up and playing Radio Star for the day.

You know, this is like a real, it's a whole thing.

It's, it's something which you are putting yourself out there

to entertain an audience, and you've got to entertain them.

You've got to engage them without having that passion for it, without

having the good reason to do it.

You are gonna quit really soon.

You know, you are, you're probably gonna get through five episodes

and then think, actually this isn't really for me if you are not doing

it for the right reasons, because.

You know, Sadaf yourself, you know, it's not easy.

People think, oh, podcasting, that's easy.

I just plug a microphone in and I talk.

Well, yeah, that is the fundamentals of it.

You're plugging in a microphone and talk, but you are having to think

about, number one, what are you gonna do when you get three people

Listen for the first few months?

Because that, unless you are working with Ara, with a strategist like

yourself, that's highly likely.

People don't just find podcasts.

You know, there's a lot involved in the marketing, in the optimization, in

the strategy of launching it, you know, to get that ideal audience listening.

So there are so many reasons not to start a podcast.

You've got to really want to start a podcast to overcome those.

And I think when you are not doing it for the right reasons on a fundamental

level, yeah, of course people can tell because it's something in their

subconscious that tells them, Hmm, I'm not really buying this person's voice.

They don't really sound.

Like they're genuinely here for me, they sound like they're just ticking boxes.

So yeah, for me it is fundamental.

You've gotta have the right reason to do it.

Awesome.

Yeah, a hundred percent.

You also talked about character development.

Tell me a bit more about how you do that.

That's really fascinating.

So usually my method is, you know, I have a couple of conversations with,

if somebody wants to start a podcast, whether it's them as an individual or

maybe they've got a a, a team, what I'll usually do is I will, whether it means

I've gotta go into their office if it's a corporate podcast, and hang out with the

team and find out what makes them tick.

And, you know, I hate to say it's like an interview process 'cause it really isn't.

I hope it's much more fun for them than that.

But it is kind of like the whole sitting down.

Right.

So tell me about yourself.

Who are you, what do you do?

What's your role?

All that sort of stuff.

Uh, if it's an individual, it's, it's much more simplistic is sit down and

have a couple of Zoom chats with them.

Yeah.

What I'm looking for the whole time is what is it about

them that is unique to them?

Mm-hmm.

and I'm not talking like, well, you know, their voice, uh, you

know, their story, uh, you know, what makes them tick necessarily.

It's more about what are their nuances?

What, what are the, what are the little sort of like, quirky things within

their personality that make them really unique that they might wanna hide?

You know, they might think, oh, I've got this really embarrassing

thing I do, where, you know, I, I just go off on a tangent and I work

with a lot of ADHDers, honestly.

You know, I seem to attract neurodivergent people.

Now, neurodivergent people, you probably know yourself, they tend

to start to go down one avenue and then they'll come to a turning and

they'll go all the way over here.

And it's, it's about understanding that actually that's part of their character,

where most people might edit that out.

And go.

Okay.

No, back to the point.

Now, you know, I sort of look at that and I go, okay.

But yeah, but that's what makes them who they are.

And so is there a way that you can introduce this element of them as a part

of their character and, and actually lean into it and make it not funny?

'cause we don't wanna laugh at people that, you know, if they've got a

disability, but make it so acceptable within their personality and their

character that the listener comes along for the ride and understands.

Okay.

So, oh yeah, they're doing that thing they do again.

And then it's almost like using sound design.

I've got this one particular case with, um, an A DHD business coach.

And what we would do when she went down a tangent, I literally found this electric

guitar, you know, sound, uh, loop sample.

And I stuck a, a, um, a break beat behind it.

So it was like, you know, and, and for that whole section where they went off

on a, where she went on for a tangent, Katie McManus, her name was, she went

off on a tangent for like 30 seconds.

That was the bit, it was like, okay.

Yeah.

And now it's ended, right?

We're back into the main show again.

And listeners loved it.

They were like, I am listening out for the,

I mean, she called them sidebar moments.

And so that's, you know, but the listeners were writing in saying, you only did

two sidebar moments in this episode.

Where are they?

They're our favorite bit.

You know, and it's like, it got to the point where she was smiling and she'd

literally go out of her way to put the odds, more sidebar moments in there

to make the episodes more engaging.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

That is so cool and really insightful on your part too, to be able to

make that part of the show 'cause that's part of their character

rather than, as you said, edited out.

It takes practice.

I mean, if you, you, you don't ever key into it for the first, I mean, if you're

batch recording, this is why I always say batch recording's useful because.

Over a period of time before you launch, if you've launched, say, if you've

recorded say, four to six episodes, over the course of those six episodes, you're

gonna pick up on the repeating patterns.

You're gonna figure out what it is about this person or this team,

you know, where they normally go.

Like if you have a team of three or four, you might have one person

that keeps getting picked on, like, not in a mean way, but like, they

just have a bit of banter, you know?

Oh, there goes Kieran again with his, you know, going off

and being boring, you know?

Oh, shut up, Kieran.

You know, and you, you pick up on those kind of,

uh, no Keans were harmed in the making of this episode, by the way.

I totally made that name up.

Um, but you do, you pick up on nuances within these teams that you can then

lean into and sort of after you've got say, a five or six of these recorded,

you can go back to them and say.

Did you realize that you all pick up on pick on Kieran and, and

you're basically bullying him.

But it's funny because he is laughing with you.

We need to lean into this and, and it almost needs to story

arc to Kieran gets his own back.

So maybe in a future episode we can have Kieran being like, I told you so.

I was right the whole time you were rock.

You know, and it, yeah.

Little things like that you can over time pick up on and you can almost

like, once you've understood that and keyed into it, you can almost go back

and, and re-edit the first episodes to include more of those moments

into, it's much more, uh, consistent throughout the story arc of your show.

Yeah,

I really love that.

And it, it keeps it engaging, it keeps it also educational and so

people will obviously wanna come back.

That's really good,

really good.

Neil, what made you, um, decide to focus your business around

helping others with podcasting?

We're getting a glimpse into my, my, uh, checkered ego pass.

Now this is, uh, so, uh, in all honesty, so I, I absolutely loved being, uh,

you know, a, a morning show, uh, radio DJ to, to use the common vernacular.

We, we'd get told of, you're not DJs, you're not picking the music.

You are radio presenters.

Okay.

Yeah.

Whatever.

We were DJs, you know, that's what we were known for.

Um, I, I loved my, my time being a morning radio dj, but

it, I needed to be challenged.

So if I came into a radio station where the morning show wasn't performing

particularly well, and I knew my brief was to get the audience up and

compete with the local, you know, I normally was the guy that would come

in on the, the underperforming station.

It was the kind of what we would lovingly call the Tim Pot radio station.

And then there was a dominant, like big player, usually owned by

Capital ra, you know, the capital GR global as they're now known.

Um, and I would have to come in and sort of like raise the profile of

this station essentially by being controversial and, you know, edgy

and doing all the things I, I did that program directors knew would

build audience, but if I wasn't challenged, I didn't enjoy it as much.

I, if I came into a radio station that was already established, I found

it less, less of a challenge and therefore I got bored more easily.

And I would usually last about 12 months before I'd be like,

right, I've gotta move on now.

And I'd go to another radio station.

I found that didn't happen so much when I took a bit of a backseat

and was there to help someone else.

So I'll give you an example of this.

Um, I a, as the radio industry started to implode and, you know, there were

less shows available for people.

And it's a bit like the music industry where the older you get,

I mean, I was approaching my, my early forties by this point.

Um, I'm nearly 50 now.

Just to sort of like put context on that, as you get older in the radio

industry, your, you, your opportunities are few and far between because

they think people want young voices, which they probably do on pop stations.

I mean, you're, you're not wanting this old fart on KISS FM going, yay, it's

the lightest one from Calvin Harris.

You know, that's not, that's not what they're looking for.

They want young, vibrant voices.

So I was sort of forced into a situation where some of the jobs

I took going, you know, later in life were more kind of consultancy,

were, you know, more production.

So teaching coaching presenters, I became kinda like the management

role, uh, if as it were, but because radio stations, if they're not massive

stations, they don't have huge budgets for these people, you'd find you'd be

doing two or three different roles.

I found when I was producing other presenters.

I got so much more out of it.

It just, something in me sparked like, oh wow, you know, I've taken this person

from having zero audience or not much audience, to suddenly they're getting

callers, they're getting texts, they're, you know, they're becoming popular online.

That really filled my cup.

Um, and it, and it helped me understand that actually, if you put my ego to the

side, actually there was value in my skillset that I could bring to others.

And I think that was the turning point for me was after I'd done this a couple

of times, I realized the satisfaction I got from producing others and coaching

them and helping them to, to grow their audiences was way more fulfilling than

me going, oh yeah, well, of course I've just grown another break show.

Of course I have, that's what I do.

You know, ego, complete ego, like, yeah.

Yeah.

I'm, I'm not challenged because I'm, now I realize I appreciate.

My own talent.

That's kind of not the point.

The point is appreciating other people's talent.

That's the real challenge, helping other people to grow.

And, and so the more I leaned into that, the more I realized that's

what I actually wanted to do.

Yeah.

That's very cool.

So it was the challenge that was pushing you?

Always has done, always has done.

I don't, I've never liked being tough.

My wife would tell you this, like, if we're at home and a door doesn't

close or something, or you know, something doesn't lock and then we'll

go, well let's, let's get a new door.

No, no, no, no.

We're gonna make this door lock.

I'm gonna go and get another lit mechanism.

I'm looking at a YouTube video and I'm fixing this lot.

This is, I don't accept that things don't work.

You know?

And, and like even on a more simplistic level, if my family are going on holiday

and my dad will be like, we went, we're not gonna get three suitcases in the boot.

Oh, we will,

we'll just shove everything and move it around and angle it differently.

Oh look, dad,

three suitcases in the boot.

I've always been like that.

I thrive on challenge.

Yeah,

yeah, it's a good mindset, isn't it, to have,

I like to think so,

I think so.

Definitely.

Neil, do you see podcasting more as a marketing channel, a business development

tool, or something else entirely.

Oh, good question.

Hmm.

depends where you're coming from, I suppose.

Um, fundamentally for me it is a marketing channel.

Um, and, and this is why on a business, you know, it depends,

again, it depends where you come from.

If you're coming from the point of view of business and revenue and

wanting to use podcasting to create cash flow, it's a marketing tool.

I've always felt that.

The evidence that I've seen has definitely backed that up.

You know, there's, there's a whole contingent of podcast gurus who

say Yes, sponsorship advertising.

You

Yeah.

uh, entire publishing companies have been set up based on that model.

I mean, Acast is one of those.

Uh, Wondery another, um, one, one of my best friends, her

husband, he runs, uh, a company.

They're called Stack, and that's what they do.

They, they, they sell ip.

So in other words, they, they have the talent that they give the podcasting

job to, and then the way they make their money, it's not the talent that

pays them to produce the show like many of us podcast production companies do.

It's actually the talent that gets paid by them, and they're using

inventory and the idea, the IP to sell advertising and get the show sponsored.

I don't subscribe to that because I think you are then only.

As valuable as your profile is, or what you're talking about is,

uh, and, and you are relying on, you know, independent companies to see value

in what you are doing versus my model that I prefer, which is you sell yourself

as the product.

So the podcast is the marketing tool, it's the platform.

It's, it's just like a newsletter, just like a website blog, just like

a YouTube channel, just like social media, like any of the other tools

that you have at your disposal.

The podcast is helping that,

Mm-hmm.

frankly, in my view, it does a better job than any of those other channels.

YouTube newsletters.

Newsletters are obviously complimentary to a podcast, but selling yourself

as the product, as in your expertise, what you can offer to people that

are willing to, you know, engage your services, that is much more

valuable and viable I feel, than.

Getting $25 per 1000 people listening to your show, which is

that sort of, that model that those companies tend to, to lean into.

Um, so yeah, I think it is predominantly a, a, a marketing tool.

But I think it's also, I mean, I do podcasts for fun.

I, I've got, um, uh, you know, behind the scenes I'm, I'm working on, I,

I, I wrote a, a sort of like a semi autobiographical book, uh, which I'm now

in the process of turning into a podcast.

Uh, it never got it, it got a publishing agreement from a small

publishing company they went under.

So that never happened.

So I'm like, well, I'm not gonna sit around moping that.

I never got my book deal.

I'm just instead, or, you know, the book deal, I got, you know, evaporated.

I'm going to make something of this and turn it into a podcast.

So, you know, and, and that won't be for monetary gain.

It's just literally, it's creative work that I wanna put out in the world.

So.

Hmm.

I think this is the problem.

A lot of people don't really get what podcasting is.

They think it's just this thing that you do that makes you money,

and I think you could not be further from the truth with that.

With that thought, personally,

Yeah, no, that's very good.

So if you, um, are the product and you're selling yourself.

What kind of conversations would you be having on a, um, on your podcast?

Would you have guests?

Would you, would it be solo?

What, what would you say?

I'm gonna be very controversial right now.

Let's do it.

to edit this out to that.

would say if you are selling yourself as the product.

Mm-hmm.

Think twice about guests.

And I know this is kind of ironic because this is kind of what we are

doing right now is, you know, you, you obviously, and let, let's, let's

be, we had a conversation before we even recorded where we both agreed,

we do the same sort of thing.

And I said, well, yeah, I'm not gonna steal your audience from you.

You know, I, I'll happily give insight, but I'm always gonna tell

people, you know, you have this show in this audience for a reason.

They like what you talk about.

They love your insights and they love you.

Probably, you know, you've probably got people listening that absolutely

love everything you stand for.

So for me to come on and go, oh, but you know, I, I could do what you do

better, which is like never a good idea.

But the amount of times say that on other shows, you know?

No, it's the, the whole point is that you have the expertise, you

bring people in to fill in the blanks, but at the end of the day.

They're there to do a purpose, to educate the audience.

They're not there to sell to the audience.

So I would always say if, if it's something where you are selling yourself

as, as the product, lean into solo shows, lean into, you know, and, and have guests

to help bridge the gaps in your knowledge, but under the understanding that for

sure all ships rise in a high tide.

I've always subscribed to that and always will.

But you have to, you have to also remember that you have the

relationship with the audience.

If you are bringing someone in to, you know, share that

audience with you, understand the audience is not there for them.

Like half your audience, more than half your audience is

not gonna care about who I am.

They might find what I'm saying interesting.

But they're not gonna have that affinity and that loyalty to

me that they've got with you.

And vice versa.

Vice versa.

If you were to come on my show.

I love stuff.

She's, she's great.

I'm gonna follow her on LinkedIn and check out her stuff, but Neil's my guy.

So do you see what I'm saying?

And I, I think this is the mistake a lot of people make when they're doing this,

is that they go, I'm just gonna get loads of, loads of experts on and use them

to share my episodes and get attention.

Where actually what they should be thinking is, I am

bringing value to my audience.

I hate the word value.

It's a Gary Chu thing.

But anyway, I'm bringing insight to my audience and if I can get other

people to come in and help me to do that, help my wider mission, great.

Happy to do that.

But they're my audience.

Hands off.

No, I like, I like what you said.

Yeah.

I, I totally agree.

I think, um, that rising tide boats, whatever it was you said, um, I

totally, I totally agree with that too.

And I think, um, we, you know, more people should do that.

I think what a lot of business owners don't understand, and I've, I've had this

before with some of my clients who have said, you know, uh, Neil, this, this guy,

uh, he invited me on his show and then he obviously did his research too late.

And then about an hour before he obviously looked at my LinkedIn profile, realized

we'd do the same thing, and then suddenly made up some excuse and canceled.

Oh dear.

And I'm like, okay, so this guy doesn't understand business.

Hmm

know, at the end of the day, we don't work with people because we

think they're the only person that can do what we want them to do.

We work with people because we've built a relationship with them.

So there are always gonna be, you know, if we, if we took it on that.

Two dimensional competitive level, which these sorts of people work on.

There are gonna be people that would never in a million years work with me.

And there are gonna be people that would never in a million years work with you.

And it's never personal, it's never anything nasty.

It's just the way that their sensibilities are.

It might be their values, their ethics.

It might be that they look at me and they go, I don't ever wanna work with a man.

You know, it's valid.

There are a lot of, you know, uh, uh, femme favoring business owners

because whatever they've got going on in their lives, maybe they just

think men are toxic or whatever.

You know, it's valid, it's totally valid.

Um, maybe something's happened in their life that's made them

wary of any male influence.

So,

you know, there are always gonna be people that will have boxes that are

ticked by some people and not by others.

So it's, it's, it's really, it's our job to give them all the

options and let them choose.

That's it.

And by trying to hide people from these, from them, it's

not gonna, they'll find them.

People find their people no matter what.

Yeah, I like that.

Neil, I wanna um, just change direction a little bit.

What are some of the biggest wins you've seen come from your own show or from

your clients that you've worked with?

In terms of my own show, definitely people coming up to me at in-person events,

Hmm.

uh, and saying, wow, thank you for saying that.

Whatever it is.

I, I, they'll, they'll come up to me and they'll say, that thing you

said about, I don't know, charts.

I'm like, I said something about the charts.

They'll be like, yeah, episode 19 in 2022.

Oh, okay.

I'm glad you enjoyed, you know, it, it, it, it's always fa and that's

similar to my radio career, where people would phone up and they would

tell you about something you said three weeks ago that you've long forgotten.

'cause it was just in the spur of the moment.

It's

that for me is Bri.

I love that because it, it shows that you've made a shift in their life.

You've, you know, impacted on their reality in quite a significant way.

That then grounds you back into that moment of like, okay, I'd

recorded that three months ago, you know, and, and edited it down and

published it and forgot about it.

Never to think about it again, probably.

Um, and someone's come to me and they've said that's made an impact on them.

And they've, they've completely changed their entire strategy

around that particular topic.

I love that.

I've also seen that with, with clients.

Um, one particular client recently, uh, they're called, uh, the Rock Fight.

They're an outdoor industry podcast.

And they were at an event.

And again, like they, Colin, I was just chatting to Colin last week

actually on our regular calls that we have, and, and he said, we did

this, this live, you know, we went to a conference, brand new conference.

We were allowed to do a live recording, live taping of the show.

And he's appeared through the curtain backstage and I saw three empty seats.

I was like, oh my God.

And then he said, his producer said, Tim, him, what are you talking about?

It's 10 deep out there.

And he would look at, and as he found out at conferences, no one

wants to sit in the front row.

Why?

Because they think you're gonna pick on them.

So everyone always sits a row back.

I had this myself at the podcast show a few weeks ago.

I was on a, a state and I said to people, come forward,

what are you doing over there?

Come forward so you can hear me.

And, and people were like sheepishly, like, oh, begrudgingly

moving forward, because they thought I was gonna pick on them.

And, and I

Hmm.

that.

Realization that he had of, oh my God, I thought I was gonna be crickets here.

I thought we were gonna just record the show regardless and just realize

there's no one there to, oh my God, there are people queuing up to get a seat.

It's that, for me, that's impact because it means that your message is

definitely connecting with your audience and giving them the intended insight

that you always want to give them.

That's, there's more value in that than anything, honestly.

Who needs downloads?

When you've got that real life impact that you're being, that you're making,

Yeah, a hundred percent.

And you know, you were talking about, um, the resonating with your audience is

it's that and then the impact that you're able to make, but how do you do that?

Um, well,

how do you make impact?

hmm.

Oh, deep question.

Nice.

I like it.

I think you have to.

Face the fear and say what needs to be said even if you feel like it's going

to not land well with some people.

But if it's true to you, you have to be brave enough to say it

anyway and understand that again, not everyone's going to like you.

And actually, if you go out of your way to be intentional about that.

And you know, I did a LinkedIn post about this the other day.

I literally said I became very comfortable years ago knowing that

people aren't gonna like me, what I say.

But that's part of the qualification and disqualification process, not just

in sales and marketing, but in life.

You know, we are taught, you are the sum of the seven people

you spend the most time with.

You know, to quote the whole how to, you know, win friends and influence people.

Some people have a big problem with that book, some people don't.

But the the point is, you know, they're on, they're onto something

with that message that if we try and be all things for all people,

we make zero impact on anybody.

Hmm.

Whereas if you are staunchly into your message and you believe what

you believe, you share that belief unapologetically, uh, you know, as

long as you don't say something that's harmful or you know, objectively wrong.

Um, you know, I've, I've got the three biggies, you know, no racism,

no homophobia, um, you know, no taking people down for who they are.

You know, those are my, my three, you know, non-negotiables.

But anything else is valid.

Uh, you know, and so if you are willing to say, you know what these

people over here are doing is wrong.

Even if you know those people are a big part of your

audience doing the wrong thing.

Hmm.

So what if they get upset?

They're not for you anyway, because they're doing the very thing

that you are saying is wrong.

And I think too many people, what they try and do is they go for that center

line of, okay, well yeah, I don't believe, like Chance is a big one for me.

There are so many people that manipulate the charts.

Charts aren't valid anyway.

They don't measure popularity of shows.

They may, I mean, this might be triggering you, maybe you believe in the value

No, no.

you're good.

you know, you're welcome to think so.

But um, I certainly prescribe to charts are a, a, a measurement of velocity

of follows and that's really it.

It's trending.

Uh, most new shows will hit the charts.

That's the whole point.

They've started from zero followers.

Apple Podcast measures new followers.

Ranks those based on, you know, velocity and then assigns a

chart ranking based on it.

But that's it.

So you can be for the first two weeks in the charts with a brand new

podcast, then you'll find it much more difficult to get in there again,

because now you've got followers.

So

the, you know, the weighting of that, it, it, it, you know, if you

don't understand how charts work, then definitely do your research.

'cause it's, it's fascinating how it works, you know, but to my

point, I might be saying charts are pointless and they don't matter.

Versus, and, and there might be somebody in the audience that

goes, oh, well I, I base my entire marketing on chart rankings.

Okay, you do.

You bro, that's fine.

That's cool.

But I'm, I'm saying you're wrong.

You know, I'm saying you are, you are basing the same with the top

1% in listen notes that people, you know, a lot of podcast influencers

will stick that on their website.

I'm the top 1% podcast consultant.

Oh, are you?

Ah, okay.

According to whose data.

And people don't like it when you say these things out loud because it's

like, oh, this is really, you know, that's the uncomfortable sort of unsaid.

Yeah.

And I think unless you are willing to be that person that's saying

the uncomfortable unsaid, you are gonna struggle to make impact.

Because people that live in comfort don't necessarily make impacts.

They just make friends and who needs friends

yeah.

And I think they can be quite, um, surface level relationships as well.

Friendships or audience, however it is.

You wanna frame that?

apps.

Absolutely.

So, you know, almost like the little special handshake, uh,

you know, at certain meetings and, and networking events.

Absolutely.

You, you don't, you don't, you know, pleasing everybody pleases Nobody

at the end of the day does it.

That's the thing.

Yeah.

Yeah, for sure.

So how long do you think it takes to see that impact?

So some people say that it can take, you know, up to, well, some people

say even up to three years before your podcast really gets going.

What is, what is, um, your opinion on that?

It depends on how you approach it.

I mean, you know, I, up until quite recently, I would've been

saying that because I worked in the organic only space.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, you know, thi this is kind of like the secret source that we have at

Podknows in a, in a way that we, what we do is we don't leave it to chance.

I've learned, you know, that if you want to get results, you have

to pretty much guarantee results, and the only way you can guarantee

results is actively seeking them out.

The, the analogy I use is imagine you are a, a brand new

restaurant opening in a town and.

The, the restaurant has never been a, a shop unit ever before.

It's been maybe a block of flats that have been gutted out

and turned into retail units.

When you open your brand new restaurant in town that's never had a retail unit where

it is, how, uh, can you expect that on opening night without doing any marketing?

No word of mouth, no telling anybody about it.

You, your, your plan for opening night is just open, have the menus on the tables

and the open sign turned around the door.

How are you gonna expect anybody to show up and have a meal for at least 12 months?

Yeah.

You know, that tends to be kind of a roundabout, the time it

takes to, to grow any sort of business, retail, or otherwise.

So you're doing the same thing with your podcast.

If you're just publishing content and you're not doing any marketing,

you're not telling anybody, it's there.

You're just putting, putting it out into the r rss s feed.

Shoving it into Apple Podcasts and Spotify and all the other apps out there

and then putting content out there.

Why are you expect any more than like your mum?

You know, your best friend and a couple of people on your

WhatsApp group to ever listen.

They're not going to because they dunno exists.

So that for me is what it's about first.

First of all, you need the discovery bit taken care of, which means you need to

know how to reach those audiences that might be interested in the first place.

Then

Hmm.

once you've actually established that and you have new people sampling, to use

the restaurant analogy, you've managed to get a few people in the front door.

Well done.

You've been going for three weeks now.

People are starting to get wind at the restaurant.

They're coming in, they're enjoying it, they're sampling some dishes.

Do they like the dishes?

That's the next challenge.

So it's all very well getting the people in listening, but do

they like what they're hearing?

So.

In terms of how you then grow it to make that impact is gonna depend on,

again, whether or not you are willing to go outside of that central safe space.

Mm-hmm.

you willing to understand that 50% of the people that are gonna listen to your show

for the first time are gonna hate it?

They're never gonna wanna listen to it again because they don't like you?

'cause you say things they don't like, but then 50% are gonna absolutely

love it and they're gonna follow, they're gonna review it, they're

gonna listen every single episode.

And yeah, that's not an overnight win.

Even if you are going with the sort of like what we do, which is,

you know, pay strategic, you know, finding their audience for them.

Even with that, we can only find the audience, we can't make you make impact.

Obviously we can steer them towards making impact by the coaching we give

them and the direction and the style of editing that we do and how we.

Guide them on recording their episodes, but at the end of the

day, the impact comes from them.

You know, I can't make someone say, say something outlandish,

you know, that's down to them.

And whether or not they're brave enough to, thankfully with my clients, they

do take direction really well, and I'm, I'm very intentional about, again, being

really careful about who I work with.

I don't just work with anybody.

I have to, that's why I have to chat with them

a few times and understand who they are, what makes them

tick, who they are as a person.

Can I help this person to grow and establish a podcast that makes impact?

And if the answer to that is no,

Yeah.

me give you the name of somebody else, I think can probably work with you.

Yeah.

No, that's really good because, um, it's a lot of your time and, you know, coming

alongside this potential client, so you wanna make sure that you're a good fit.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

It's, it's, it's crucial.

In fact, I would say, you know, there, there are some.

People out there that they will work with.

Any and everybody, and you know, you, you'll see them bragging, oh,

I'm working with 150 shows now.

Are you,

hmm

you really though?

Or are you just churning out content?

You know?

And, and I, I think that that, in my view, they haven't done enough to,

like I say, develop the characters, understand who they are, what

they stand for, are they aligned?

I think you, you can always tell production companies that are just, that

production companies churning out content.

And I think it's really important, you know, when you've got people that are

really tuned into what they're doing and doing it for the right reasons,

you'll find that the show, the number of output of shows is a lot lower.

Yeah, because it's more substantial.

Yeah.

You've, you've, you've, you've got a mission, you've, you've

built a relationship, you understand what each other wants.

From the efforts and yeah, you, you absolutely are aligned

on where things are going.

You know, I very beginning of any relationship that I have with any

hmm.

we get it really clear, right?

What's the goal?

What, what, when we look back five years from now back to

now, what are we proud of?

What do we want better?

And nine times out of 10, few of them say more downloads, because

that's not actually what they want.

They don't want more downloads.

They want more impact.

Yeah.

Sometimes that's sales, sometimes that's growth of their business, but nine

times out of 10, it's actually something much, much more important to them,

like growing themselves, understanding themselves better, understanding

their ideal customers better, and achieving something specific within

the world with what they're doing.

Yeah.

What have you found, um, that people underestimate about

growing a successful pod podcast?

The effort and time.

Hmm.

It's not, like I say, it's not easy, you know, it, it, it, it's,

it absolutely breaks my heart when I see someone that is excitedly

announcing the launch of their podcast,

and there are telltale signs that they haven't given it any thought whatsoever.

They've just literally gone, I'm gonna start a podcast.

They've recorded a trailer and they've stuck it out in the world.

They haven't done any prep, they haven't done any strategy, they haven't done

any thought into what they're achi and, and you can tell this because they

will say, and I'm paraphrasing, but it will be something along the lines of,

I'm going to tell more stories in the business world by interviewing thought

leaders within the world of business.

Okay.

Mm.

You've just described 30,000 shows.

What's yours gonna do differently?

What do you mean what's mine gonna do?

I'm going to interview thought leaders in the world of business to

help people develop their business.

Yeah.

Cool.

Okay.

Good luck with that.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, people don't, you wouldn't, you wouldn't start a brand new business

without having an idea, like a, you know, if you really thorough about it, you

did the business plan, you take that to people to give you critical feedback.

You might hire a business coach, you might speak to a financial planner.

You might do all that stuff that legit businesses tend to do.

If they want this thing to work, you don't just go, I'm going to

buy the domain and start trading.

But that's kind of what people do with podcasts.

They go, I'm gonna buy the domain.

I'm gonna launch the RSS feed.

I'm gonna grab myself a free RSS feed from Spotify for creators low

in, low investment, low risk, very low commitment, and that's it.

And then they wonder why it doesn't work.

Because they're doing the same thing that millions of other people have done

before them and will continue to do probably years into the future as well.

Hmm.

So what would you say does make a podcast work for a business?

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

If you cannot identify what that is in yourself, you are not gonna have

much luck doing it through a podcast.

That's, that's my honest view.

I think those that business coaches are very guilty of this, honestly.

Mm-hmm.

They go, oh, I'm a business coach.

Okay, but what about what you do as a business coach is unique to you?

Well, I, I talk to people with kindness.

Okay, cool.

But what is it about what you do that makes you unique?

Well, I don't use whiteboards and marker pens.

Okay, cool.

Again, we're talking about process here.

We're not talking about your Eid, what it is about you that makes you unique.

Do you coach brand new businesses?

Do you coach established businesses?

Do you coach CEOs?

Do you coach the shop floor?

Do you coach people using established processes?

Do you coach with a new process?

What is it about you that's unique to you?

Do you only coach men?

Do you only coach women?

Do you only coach people under 30?

That's still quite surface level, but 90% of these people

don't even think that through.

They're just like, well, I'll take anybody on.

Of course, I wanna help everybody.

And it's, it's like, what's your podcast about?

What's about everything really?

We talk about this, we talk about that.

Good luck getting an audience

That's really insightful.

So what I think you're saying is that to niche it down as much

as possible is the way to go,

niche and then niche and then niche again.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

If, if, you know, if, and I've got a great real world example of this.

So there, there, I was doing a bit of research a couple of years ago

and somebody, I can't remember who it is that now quotes me on this.

Uh, it might be Dave Jackson.

Shout out to Dave Jackson if it is you.

But I talked on an episode about, uh, this, this, uh, this podcast that

approached me and they were like, my friends have all told me that

I haven't got a chance in hell of getting a podcast going here, but I'm,

I think there's something in this.

I was like, right, okay.

What's your niche?

He was like, basket weaving.

I was like.

That is brilliant.

Yes.

But can you nail it down even more into like a specific type of basket weaving?

Are there different types of basket weavings, like, well, yeah, you can

use this particular type of wick, you can use this particular type of fabric.

You know, and I was like, right, okay, so are you gonna talk about that

type of fabric or that, oh, well I'll probably go with that type of brilliant.

Right.

Okay.

And which territories did these things sell in?

Oh, well, I, I mean, you know, and we literally went down

that road of like, yeah, great.

Yeah, great.

Cool story, bro.

But what else?

And you know, he managed to get 3000 downloads in his first month

Wow.

Wow.

based on the idea that he had what?

And, and he was like, there's gonna be three people.

Listen to this, but I don't care.

I wanna do it.

3000 for the most niche.

Because there are people out there looking for topics on basket weaving.

Of course they are.

You know, it's, it's how many people are there in the world?

Billions.

Right.

What are the chances that a big community of people are into the

very thing that you think nine people are gonna be into around the world?

It's, yeah, that's, that's, I think that's really important.

I think if you think you are in a pool where there aren't many

fish swimming around, great.

That's what you wanna go for.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's better to have that niche of people that are actively listening

than having thousands and thousands of downloads that are often just,

you know, um, automatic downloads that people actually don't listen to.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We, we, we, we all know about automatic bot downloads 100%.

And I think, yeah, if, if you've got, I always say this to people, you

Hmm,

oh, well this person I know has got 30,000 downloads a month.

Cool.

How many of those are actually genuinely interested and how many of them are just

people that may be followed automatically download the show and never listen to

it, versus someone who's got 30 people that hang on every word, listen week

in, week out, and actually a pro, probably more likely if you're doing

it as a business to buy from you or at least get engaged in your community

that you are, you are promoting.

Yeah.

Yeah, for sure.

That's excellent.

Um, changing direction a little bit again.

So looking forward, what's next for Podknows and your own current

podcast and the one you've got coming?

So immediate goal is to do more work in helping people to, to, to

grow big po I mean we, we recently, we've changed messaging from start,

a podcast that makes impact to

start a top 5% podcast.

That makes impact because I want more.

Shows to know they can do it, that they can compete with the big boys.

Hmm.

The chance don't matter because you've got Steven Bartlett and number

one in the business charts, yawn.

that doesn't mean that you can't find your own audience that's

more aligned with what you do.

So certainly growing that strategy, part of it, it is strategy.

There's a big component of strategy involved, you know, in terms

of how we find their audiences.

Um, a lot of targeting involved, a lot of paid traffic, but also a lot of, you know,

uh, PR earned media, that sort of stuff.

So growing that, becoming more, you know, my, my whole thing is I like

to become an expert in every aspect.

I mean, I'm not the best at everything I do.

Nobody can be, but I like to get to the point where I have

achieved mastery and become the best that I can do in that aspect.

And that's kind of how, that's why my, my show was originally called the pod master.

You know, attaining PO Mastery because it was about that for me.

It was like, you, you need to become a master at what you do in order to grow.

Now I've sort of loosened up on that a little bit.

Now, I don't think you need to be a master at everything you do.

I think you just need to be across everything you need

to do in order to grow.

So for me, it's, it's kind of, you know, all the aspects that I learn as

I go, whether that be paid traffic, Google ads, meta ads, um, you know,

guests swapping, fee dropping, you know, optimizing for SEO.

I mean, that's what I was kind of like thriving on in 2021 was like the SEO

and I look back on it now, my God, you were selling to clients based on just

being able to title episodes correctly.

Wow, okay.

How far you've come, you know, so that's kind of, that's what the journey is

for me, is like constantly growing, constantly developing my talent in

terms of what I offer to clients.

And, and that's kind of like the next couple of years.

And then eventually my dream is to franchise Podknows

out into small businesses,

you know, solopreneurs who want to help people grow podcasts.

Using our blueprint of what we do that helps achieve those results for people.

So

they don't have to take the risk of being the startup.

They can, you know, they, they, they, they can work within an established

framework that people will start to recognize, oh, okay, yeah, pod

knows that's the top 5% people.

Oh, you work, you, you've got that, but okay, cool.

Definitely will work with you.

'cause I can't be everywhere,

Yeah.

you know, I, I, I can only help a certain amount of people and, you know, I, I

very much limit myself to who I work with based on what we've said earlier

about, you know, making more impact.

If I'm churning out a hundred shows, I can't make that impact.

But if I've got 10 people each putting out 10 shows.

Under my franchised brand where they can make their own living, but they

don't have the risk attached of, oh my God, how am I gonna compete with

all these other podcast companies?

Um, you know, then that, that's kind of my dream.

So it's not a financial one.

I'm so altruistic, aren't I?

No, I, um, no, I think it's great and, you know, listening to you speak in what

you've just said now it echoes back to what you were saying earlier about, um.

Having a challenge and wanting to understand every aspect of

it and get on top of it and, you know, you said it yourself.

MAs master it though, I think, I think that's, that's great.

And I also love how you're thinking forward about how can

the impact just keep multiplying.

It's, it's not just all on your shoulders.

Scale sensibly is kind of my thing.

You know, I, I, uh, I had somebody offered to, you know, to invest in

my business and it just, it wasn't, I. It wasn't what I wanted at the

time because it was like, okay, so that's gonna make me suddenly massive,

that's gonna bring me more pressure, that's gonna bring me more clients.

Yes, the revenue's gonna increase, it's gonna allow me to do more

things, but it's gonna allow me to do more things on what they think is

workable versus what I want to do.

And so I sort of like was thanks, but no thanks.

Maybe in five years time, I've, it's always been really important

to me to scale this properly.

Um, I'm not, I'm not gonna lie to you and say I don't dream of having, you

know, the big income and, you know, buying a nicer house, buying a nicer

car, having nicer holidays, you know, um, doing nicer things with my life.

Of course I want all that, but I wanna do it on a sensible level where I know

that I'm not, you know, the easiest thing in the world would be for me to

take client after client, after client, hire people to do the editing for me,

never listen to the finished results, just publish 'em out in the wild.

And the first I know that it's not working is when someone complains.

I don't wanna be Tesco,

No.

you know, I, I want to, I wanna be heavily involved in everything I do.

I mean, you know, quality and attention to detail and, and quality

assurance are really important to me.

They always, I mean, even when I was a kid and I worked at Tesco, you

know, I used to pride myself when

the manager would come up and say, oh, you've had praise from customers.

They'd come to the customer service desk and said, what?

Really?

Like the land on the cheese counter.

I really like the land on the fish desk.

He is really thorough and was, you know, really trying to understand what I wanted.

You know, you're selling fish, you know, but that was, that was important to me.

And, and that's always carried through with me, that I've always wanted people

to understand the value of what I bring them, and that will never change.

hmm.

Yeah.

You know, um, I think that speaks volumes about how you, uh,

approach and run your business.

Like, you know, even down to the character development that you talked

about earlier on, that it's about really understanding the client and what you

can bring out in them that's gonna make their show really successful.

That's great.

Yeah, I hope so.

That's really great.

Neil, this has been really fun and really insightful.

Thank you.

No, no, thank you.

I can, can I, can I flip the script a little bit and can I ask you a question?

Sure.

What would be, based on what I've said to you, what would be the one

piece of advice you would give me?

Honestly, thinking back, uh, you know, over the conversation that you,

that we've had, I feel like it's been truly, I've said it, it's insightful.

It really has been insightful.

I really have learned a lot from you.

This, the whole part about the character development I thought was very cool.

I'd not thought about things like that before.

So I honestly, I'm not sure what advice I would, I would give you.

I'm looking at my notes now.

Maybe like when I've slept on it, I'll, I'll, I'll have something I'm like, oh,

I should have said that to Neil and in which case look out for an email from me,

let's put it that way.

But yeah.

Neil, before you go though, if someone wants to learn more about your

work or connect with you directly, where should they go to do that?

Well, if they wanna listen to the show, uh, Podcasting Insights, you

can find that pretty much anywhere.

You know, I even do YouTube now.

Sadaf, can you believe this?

I actually put this on,

excellent.

what am I doing?

Uh, but you can find that at podmastery.co.

But if you wanna find out more about what, you know, what we do

as a business and, and we, we've got hopefully quite a helpful blog,

um, that you might be interested in looking at, which is podknows.co.uk.

But what I would say to anybody who wants to know more about how they can

grow their podcast or, you know, start a podcast, then you know, inserts the

Sadaf's contact details right now here, because you definitely need to talk

to staff about Grant, your podcast.

Thank you, Neil.

Thank you.

And to those listening, all of Neil's links are gonna be in

the show description for you.

And if you're a business owner thinking about podcasting or already

podcasting, but not seeing the results that you want, I hope this

conversation showed you what is possible when you approach it strategically.

If this episode was helpful, I'd love it if you shared it with another

business owner who might benefit.

Thanks for listening, and I'll see you next time.