In this episode of Push To Be More, Matt Edmundson interviews Joe Davis, a Managing Director and Senior Partner at Boston Consulting Group, about his life and leadership. Together they discuss the importance of mentorship and vulnerability in business, Joe reflects on how being open about your own limitations can foster strong connections and drive success. Joe's advice and mindset offers a refreshing take on vulnerability in the business world and provides listeners with the tools they need to succeed in a high profile career. 

Key Takeaways: 

1. The Power of Vulnerability in Leadership: Joe emphasises that showing vulnerability, such as admitting mistakes or uncertainties, can build stronger connections and trust with others. This authenticity is crucial in today’s leadership, as it allows leaders to be more relatable and effective.
2. The Importance of Mentorship: Joe discusses the profound impact a good mentor can have on one’s career and personal growth. He encourages finding mentors who push you to improve while also having your back, highlighting that mentorship is a two-way street.
3. Balancing Personal Well-being with Professional Demands: Joe shares that maintaining personal well-being, through activities like running and meditation, is essential for sustaining high performance in a demanding career. He also notes the importance of drawing energy from positive interactions with others to stay motivated and focused.

If this episode of Push to be More piqued your interest make to visit pushtobemore.com and keep up to date with everything we do here on the Push to be More Podcast.

Joe Davis | Vulnerability, The Unexpected Key to Success

Matt Edmundson: Well, hello and welcome back to Push To Be More. My name is Matt Edmundson and we are about to dive into another deep exploration of what really fuels this journey of life. Yes, we are. And joining me today, I have an exciting guest, Joe Davis from the Boston Consulting Group, which is one of the coolest company names ever.

Now we're going to be jumping into, uh, his unique life experiences, the hurdles he's had to push through. and the way he kind of recharges his batteries. Um, really, what does more look like? What does the next stage look like? Push To Be More. That's the title of the show. That's what we are going to get into.

You don't even have to go and check anything, it's come straight down to you. So check that out. on the website. Now, this episode is proudly powered. I just love this phrase. This episode is proudly powered, uh, by Podjunction. All the Ps there, right? Uh, Podjunction is the company that helps you build your business with podcasting.

If you want to know more about why I think that, go over to podjunction. com. You can find all of the information there. Uh, it is really, really something worth thinking about. I love it. I genuinely love podcasting because I get to talk to amazing, wonderful people. Like Joe Davis, who is a Managing Director and Senior Partner at Boston Consulting Group, former head of BCG in North America, and was named a Top 25 Consultant in 2011.

He's Chair of BCG's Center for Inclusion and Equity. He co founded CEO Action for Diversity and Inclusion. He is also, because if he's not got, you know, enough on his plate, he also wrote a book. He's the author of The Generous Leader. 7 Ways To Give Of Yourself For Everyone's Game, which, let me tell you, has some insanely good reviews on Amazon.

Joe Davis: Great. Well, thank you for that wonderful introduction.

I hope I'm exciting. You started off with exciting guests. Also, now I feel like I got to go sign up and learn how to do a podcast. You got me motivated. I am great. You'd be a great.

Matt Edmundson: Oh, no, not at all. You'd be a great podcast host. Do it, man. Do podcast. They're unbelievable. They really are, for reasons I won't bore you with right now, but I just think they're really great fun.

Um, but let's talk into that. Let's jump straight into the first question, Joe. I like to ask everybody, if you could have your own podcast and you could have anybody as a guest on the show, past or present, the only caveat being they must have had a big influence on your life, who would you have as a guest?

Who would you like to talk to and why?

Matt Edmundson: Yeah. Totally. I

Joe Davis: have one of those eight grandchildren now crying in the background. So I want to make sure. You can't hear it. That's good. Um, I actually started BCG, I was in the Boston office.

I had a mentor. Um, we were going to go down and open Washington. He was moving down there for, uh, it doesn't matter the reasons. And I thought he asked if I'd go along and I'm actually a big believer if it works out personally and you have a really tight mentor, you stick with them. We were flying back and forth looking for places to live and looking for places for the office.

One time we were flying back up towards Boston. I remember we were on the plane and this fellow said, my mentor said, Hey, Joe, I've got an offer to be the president of one of our clients companies. And I remember I said, Oh, blank in my brain, but I said, Oh, that's good for you. I wasn't thinking that. Oh my God.

That, to me, was a, you know, a beautiful sign of a mentor who really has one's back, has your back. And that fellow is a guy named Steve Gumby, so it's not some famous person. When I heard, you know, of course you told me that question was coming, and I thought, do I have to have a famous person, or you asked about someone who influenced me.

Steve was my mentor for 30 plus years. Um, he was BCG, obviously, now he's CEO of FTI Consulting. He was, he was actually an interesting combination because he was the kind of person that had your back like that. He was also the kind of person that pushed, pushed you forward. Really, really hard to get better.

And I mean, some of it I know, obviously from osmosis, but it would be fun to just have a real. Or whatever, or by feedback. But that's, that's who I pick. I got a fellow named Steve Gumby. Fantastic.

Matt Edmundson: There's, um, one of the benefits of me doing this show, Joe, was, um, I obviously get to pick guests. And one of the, one of the early guests on the show, a guy called Simon O'Shaughnessy is one of my mentors and has been for a very long time.

And so I had the pleasure of sitting down and chatting with him on a podcast and knowing a lot of his life story and, you know, what him and his beautiful family are like, and Um, they live in New Zealand now, and, um, you know, I fly over as often as I can and hang out with them. And so knowing their story, it was just still fascinating to do the part.

Um, but it sounds like for you, the mentor was actually a really important part of your journey.

Joe Davis: Yeah, yes. First off, thank you for telling me that story, because I felt a little guilty about picking my mentor, but you just made, you just, you just made me feel quite good.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, you did what I did, Joe, that's fine.

Joe Davis: That'd be okay. Well, it's interesting. You're right about that. It's funny. People, I've been at BCG 37 years and people say, well, what, why did you stay? Of course, there's a lot of reasons, but I always start with, I had an incredible mentor who developed and trained and pushed me every day. And, you know, that's worth a lot.

O'Shaughnessy. I do, when I tell people that ask me, how do you, how do you get a mentor? How does that work? What I do say is when you find that you're working with somebody and you like them, you have to, you don't have to love them, but you gotta like them and you find they're always pushing you and developing you and coaching you.

You might think, oh my gosh, that's so much intensity. But actually, if they're trying to make you better. And you like, and it's both, and you just, you know, then actually sit down and have a chat and say, I'd like to work with you, quote unquote, forever. But then I say, grab onto it. And it was like me deciding to move my family to Washington because Steve was moving.

But the first trick is, I think to your point, some people don't even have, you've got to kind of be looking. It doesn't, someone doesn't just hand it to you, you've got to say, Oh wow, I really like this person. We're getting along. We are working together. And then nab it, then grab it. Yeah. And I'll make one other point.

I also think it's two ways street, you know, sometimes your mentor may say, I need you to do this, which is not the most exciting work thing or whatever thing to do, but they need you to do it. That's the time where you give back and say, yes, I will do that, you know, or I mean, Steve didn't make me move, but it is also a two way street, which I think sometimes people forget.

Well, I just want you to train me and I just want you to make sure I'm better. But I, if I have to work 22 hours today and I don't want to, I don't want to, wait a minute, if the person needs you, 22 hours is an extreme, I know. So those are, that's, I think when you, when you feel it, you know, take hold. Yeah.

And so I'm curious what yours is.

Joe Davis: Well, that's interesting. Um, cause when you said, what do I hear when I hear that? I hear what you coach me. I don't think you meant, I mean, we can go look up the word exactly what it means, but what I just described isn't what you do. You just don't, Hey, will you mentor me?

That's to me, I hear coaching. Now, if the coaching turns into a deep relationship, it's a mentorship. Sure. What I, but you know, my litmus test is, I hadn't thought about it. Cause it's just kind of, these things are instinctual, but okay. My first instinct is yes. Cause I just like to help people. And then the next one is, yeah.

Because that's the thing you have to watch out for, right? You know, sometimes that question is, is unfortunately self serving. But then what I'm hearing is I'm really hearing coaching and so on, which, and then the next question is, okay, what do you want mentorship or coaching on? What are you looking for?

You know? Um,

yeah,

Joe Davis: as the years have gone by, I can, I will coach on almost anything. Start with, well, how are you, how am I talking to you as, Someone who works with me or is one of my children, and I say, no, I want you to think like you're my dad. Okay. Well, then here's what I would do. No, think like business.

Matt Edmundson: on what it is. Yeah, that's interesting. That's really interesting. So you've been with the Boston Consulting Group for, for a while, a fair few years, let's just put it that way, you know, and you've, you've obviously enjoyed On the whole, the journey, um, and in the, and like I said, in the, in the introduction, you've also written a book, The Generous Leader, Seven Ways to Give of Yourself, um, for Everyone's Game.

One of the things that I noticed, Joe, in, in people's reviews, because I just sort of scanned down the reviews that people wrote, they said that you were incredibly vulnerable. in the book, which they greatly appreciated. So I guess my question to you is, if we can, let's just dig into that. Were you intentionally vulnerable in the book?

And is that an important part of being a generous leader, do you think? Um,

And it's. And it's all really about, first off, authenticity, because I think in today's work world, we can go deeper if we want, people are looking for authentic leaders who are human, who can at least somewhat connect to where you're coming from. You can't know where everybody's coming from. And to show that authenticity, You can't be perfect.

If you're

Joe Davis: not perfect, you've got to show some levels of, it could be as simple as an, I don't know, if someone asks you a tough question or an easy question to, you know, crying if you want to. Um, yeah, yeah, I was, it's interesting because I'm known to be quite authentic, quite honest, brutally honest, positive and negative.

Or if that's how, so I walked down the hall to Steve. He was a senior part of the time. He said, I'm stuck. I don't know how to do this. Can you help me? Well, he didn't know how either. Now he could have said, Hey, I'm busy. Sent me away to not just not. And then gone ask them. He said, Oh, I don't know how to do it either.

Let's walk down and ask this person. I mean, what a sign of vulnerability as a senior partner, I was afraid to ask him, you know, it was interesting. Um, it was a big signal enough for me, actually, I tell the story, I, I got married at 23 years old. I cried through my entire vows. And of course, 22 year old guy, I was embarrassed and my wife was crystal clear and all this.

But afterwards, so many people came up and said, wow, Joe, that love and that ceremony or you know, that

in

Joe Davis: the room, the emotion. And so, you know, here I was. Embarrassed and the feedback was all, Hey, that's pretty cool. And then my mom died when I was 30. You can imagine this time, my three brothers were up there, three of us.

So I had this. I didn't realize it, but I had this very early experiences on quote unquote vulnerability that actually were quite powerful and that they, now it's gonna sound little crass, they moved others. I didn't do it to anybody else didn't, but it did, you know? So I thought, oh, okay, now I can go on too long.

But, you know, everyone's got a, I say draw your own mind. I mean a white male when I was head of North America. I can cry in front of everybody, but nothing's going to happen to me, you know, I'm already having like 60 plus, got grandkids, you know, if you're a 32 year old male or female starting out and female, you know, you have, you got to watch the line.

They just, Oh, this person, you're not this person. I mean, I haven't, I haven't read a book like that, I guess, or self already, Brenny Brown's already written a lot of books on that, right? Yeah. A lot of TED Talks. Yeah. Yeah. But I think this, yeah, so I, I had some early experience that were very powerful in understanding, revealing a bit of yourself helps move people.

And if, as you and I both know, if you can show some fear, you know, then others who are afraid, I mean, COVID was a beautiful time for it. Nobody. Wasn't vulnerable. I mean, how many leaders videos to their organization? I don't know when we're going to open up again. Sorry. I'm furloughing you. But everybody, but when you do that, you just free everybody.

Matt Edmundson: It's interesting you're listening to you talk about it though, because you've, you've been in the workplace for a long time, 30, with these guys, 37 years. And I, I remember growing up in the, um, 70s and the 80s, um, where men did not do that. Uh, and in fact, actually, um, it was, you know, you, I would have got beaten up at school if I'd have, you know, uh, sort of shown any kind of vulnerability in, in many ways.

You're, you're amongst men that won't, that will just tell you to man up or whatever. How do you, how did you navigate that?

Joe Davis: Oh my, um, well, as I said already, I think, well, the other thing I didn't say, my parents separated when I was eight. So that, you know, these things, so sure, on one hand, man up, on the other hand, hey, I got to deal with all this.

I'm here, you can bury it all. I got lucky I dealt with some of them. Also, When you ask about the book, chapter eight is on vulnerability. My dad was gay. Now it took me a long time to recognize that and understand that even though there were many signals, I was a typical boy who, my version of man up, wait, wait a minute, if he's gay, how am I here?

And I have, my wife and I had one of these, we got married one year out of college, probably 100 uninvited college friends that showed up. It wasn't not, it wasn't just your mother and grandmother at the wedding. But I do think over the years, um, You know, either what I, either my experience and I hear you on the matter or just talking to, you know, a lot of people I talked to for this book, other executives, you know, they talked about how, you know, they just took a step over the line to show a little bit and it didn't hurt and actually people said, oh, wow, thank you for sharing a bit of who you were and it was a, it was a signal.

I mean, I, I remember one, I won't name names, of course, but there was a person I've watched over the years who's, I mean, person was very attractive, male, good looking, perfect, their perfect body. I mean, it was just, but it always was perfect. And people would work for them, but they didn't follow it, you know, because they didn't know what are you, how you follow perfection or perceive perfection.

Matt Edmundson: You

Joe Davis: can't be that. So now what do you do? Now you still do your job and if they say get this, you know, that's, but that's different from following. You know, that's different from kind of leadership. I think the best are, which is a really, they're mentors, motivated, inspiring people to be all they can be. Um, but I had a good friend of mine that said, Joe, you just, you know, to your question, you just, you step over the line a little bit at works or, or think back to something in your life where you exposed a little bit of yourself and what happened, did it hurt?

So you could say BlackBerry through the computer, now COVID, such that you can't, the, the days of IBM, remember the white shirt and blue suit, everyone's the same. Those days aren't there anymore. An employee, a very talented employee, wants to bring their, has to bring their human self to work. Neither of us are in an office.

Well, first off, GE collapsed. Let's be clear. Yeah. There wasn't a culture there that weren't in no offense to GE and the pieces that are long, but the, you know, Procter and Gamble's here 150 years later. And those, yeah. I'm really going on, but so, yeah, you started with how do you show a little vulnerability, but I just think that now people are expecting humanity, which means some authenticity, which means you have to occasionally share a bit of who you are.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, that's really powerful. I think it's interesting, isn't it? Because I, again, I, I think about, um, perhaps my greatest leadership role would be as a parent in many ways. And, and, and being a parent and being a vulnerable parent, I always struck me as being quite important because I, you, there are, there's going to be a moment in my kid's life where they realize I'm not perfect and if I'm not careful, and if I, if I don't set the stall out early enough, that can actually be quite a problem.

Joe Davis: Yeah, that's very interesting. I don't think consciously I've ever won, but I'm known to cry at the emotional movies, so they always, oh, dad's crying, so I've got a freebie, you know, because that's a freebie, because it's an emotional movie, who cares? And now, you know, if I, something, if a plug gets killed, I cry, and they just expect me to cry or I get pissed, but um, yeah, you're right, it's interesting.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because how's a five year old show their feelings? Or just, what's your point? You better along the way show some of those feelings. You know, yeah, well, I think you're pointing the breakdown. I mean, I'm just thinking of your story, you know, the dad is stoic and everything. And, you know, like, well, I love my dad, but it wasn't like, I loved the human.

I loved the person that my dad, I love what he stands for. He was there for us. Um, Yeah, but it's very interesting, but I think I'm with you. You gotta, you're gonna have to somehow share your human self with your children. If you want them to. And now I'm getting to, I've got to be careful or not, I'm not a psychologist, but if you can push themselves, you know, and be this, you know, get past their own, their own challenges you have to

Matt Edmundson: service.

Joe Davis: Right. Oh, I think, but I think even to your point, I think a great leader can be somebody who says this is the direction we're going in. I think I'm right, or this is what I believe is right. And then, you know, two weeks I'll make up time. A little later on, new data comes in. Oh, we're changing a bit because we have, now, you don't fundamentally change the direction of a company or something unless you really have to, but, you know, on decisions here and there.

And I was

Joe Davis: like, wow, buddy, you sound, now I have a bias. And then you think of the Arnie Sorenson, he was the CEO of Marriott, and they had a famous video during COVID.

He was dying of cancer. So he's on the screen bald because of the chemo. Um, talking about, you know, I, but everybody can say, I have no idea how long this will last. There's no customers in our hotels. I'm sorry. I had to furlough 80 percent of you or tens of thousands of you, but we're doing our best to keep your job, you know, just so it was honest.

It was open.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

Joe Davis: The vulnerability of, you know, it's like, Hey guys, I'm in front of you doing my best while I'm also fighting with my own issue. It was very powerful. I mean, it got. And, and, you know, more people were, there was more accolades about this leader than less.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, that's really fascinating, isn't it?

Joe Davis: yeah, sorry, I cut you off. You can also just say they're honest, you

If everybody was honest, you'd feel a hell of a lot better because they let you decide what you're dealing with. Yeah. And that's, that's also what you're talking about. Yeah. I don't know, but this is all the data I've gotten. I'm picking this direction. That's where we're going, team. Please follow me.

Yeah.

Joe Davis: And, oh, now I've honestly got new data and I'm going to move. four degrees this way, and we'll keep on going team. Oh wow. This person's thinking. They're honest. They keep us informed. Now there's limits to how much you inform people and all that, but um,

Matt Edmundson: yeah, it's, you're right. It's an interesting one because I don't think they're mutually exclusive.

But actually there's a vulnerability In is to not only admit when, when we're not, you know, on top of our game ourselves, but actually to go, listen, I just feel a little bit unsure here about what you're saying rather than just letting them get away with it. Or is that maybe I've got that wrong? I don't know, but I'm kind

Joe Davis: of, you mean as the receiver of the feedback?

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

Joe Davis: Oh, I won't use a swear word, but I think the person that gives what you just described, your society, you just described your society as giving mush feedback. Like I call them mush feedback. I actually think that's mean against me, you know, cause really how, Hey, hey, you know, Matt, I really enjoyed your show.

Yeah. You

Joe Davis: know that I love your show. So I'd have to say positive things, but no, it's nothing.

Worse. Well, sure. There's a lot of worse things. Giving mushy feedback is very unhelpful. If your role or your role as a leader, I don't care which word you use, is to ensure others thrive at their full potential, either because that's what a leader is supposed to do and, or because when they do that, you benefit because everyone on the team, if everyone's at their full potential, now assuming you have the right team, you know, you're going to, you're going to benefit.

If that's your goal, giving indirect mushy feedback is really unhelpful. I mean, you're hurting yourself. Let's be honest. Now, this is easier for you and me to say this than to be done. Because of course, there's a lot of people are afraid. Oh, what are they going to think of me out of it? What if they don't receive it?

Let's talk about it together. That's vulnerable. 'cause you don't know and is honest and now together you can help the person get better.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

Joe Davis: This isn't, well I say it isn't that hard. I know it's harder than, but it isn't that hard. , I think what is, once you start taking chances and experimenting with, you know, traits like that, you know, being more honest on the feedback now it you learn and no one's gonna begrudge you for helping them be better.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

Joe Davis: I don't think, you know, if they do, then you don't want them working with you.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, that's true.

I believe this and what they have to work on and then see if there's anything in the good that helps them compensate for adjust for the less good. I once, you got to stop me if you want me to switch topics, Matt, but I once got some feedback. Someone said to me, Joe, well, the same Steve Gumby. If I put two people in a room with four walls, no way out, no windows, no doors, and gave you both a very difficult problem, this BCG typical thing.

And you don't get out until you get the answer. You'll probably never get out. Well, thank you very much. This other guy will get out every time. He's known to be very analytical. However, if I say, now do it, get it done, whatever the answer, he will never get it done, and you'll get it done every time. You team with people, you know your shortcomings.

it's not a thing you want to hear, you know,

Matt Edmundson: yeah, yeah. But I think there's, that's actually quite helpful. Um, like you say, the mushy feedback is very unhelpful, but I, I, I actually quite like people to be quite clear. Um, but like you say, I, the people I tend to listen to are the people that I know care about me and have got my back.

Yeah.

Matt Edmundson: Um, if people just message me on social media and make some kind of strange comment, I'm like, yeah, whatever. Thank you. You know, just God bless you. Don't let the door hit you on the way out kind of a thing, you know, just leave them to it. But I think if it's someone that you feel like has got your back and who cares deeply about you, I think you're invested enough to go.

Thank you for sharing that. Right.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah,

Joe Davis: but you're right.

You have to earn that you, I mean, you can throw feedback around wherever you want, but if you want it to really stick and the person's growing, yeah, they have to be declared, which is another sign of authenticity, maybe not vulnerability, but the honesty thing, right? I mean, it's like, you know, it's interesting when you asked about it, since you hit that one, because people say.

Ask me what are the most important, you have these seven traits, I'm not, not to go on about the book, but this idea of listening to learn, it's really listening to each other, which you want to talk about politics, you know, but why is, why is Matt think this? What's he know that I don't know? What am I missing?

That's powerful. And then that has to be, you have to be a bit vulnerable to admit, you know, something in your own head, even, you know, I don't know. That's all there is. That's why my two key ones are listen to people and be honest enough to say, you don't know everything. With that, you could be a pretty powerful leader.

Now you got to be good at this. You got to be good at management and there's a lot of traits, but at least on this aspect of it.

And it's a case of if I shout louder, um, or I try and get you cancelled, then I win as opposed to actually, how do we work this through, you know, um, and it, so we now it's true in the States, it's true in the UK, you have quite a divided society, um, it's quite polarised on many issues, you know, um. And I, I find actually the talent to sit down and listen to somebody who has a different point of view from you in a way which is constructive, in a way where you're trying to learn, where you're trying, what was it Stephen Covey said, seek first to understand, you know, you're trying to do that.

Joe Davis: Well, or, well, yeah, first of all, there are not many people, but we got to watch how we say this. There appear to be a lot of people who aren't interested in doing it and then they probably don't develop the skill, whether they could do it or not.

I won't judge. Yeah. Oh yeah, no. And I think this little thing right here is part of the problem. You know, you say, shout out, you don't even shout, you just type on here and hit send. You don't even have to face anybody. Yeah, I, I, I agree with you. I'll tell you, I'll say it, I'll say this and you can tell I'm kind of.

So therefore, I think it's wrong. Now, you can think it's not murder, so we can [00:36:00] disagree, but at least give me the grace. So I picked this one on purpose, because that's the opposite of where you think most people give the grace. At least give me the grace to understand where I'm coming from, and now let's debate.

Don't just think I'm a bad person, actually. I think I'm a great person because I'm protecting life. You're actually not. So now, now I thought that was so stunning because usually it'd be the other way around, you know, well, it was stunning. Now I didn't, I should probably listen to transcripts of whatever the debate was.

It'd be interesting whether he got shut up or listened to. But I, you know, I tell that to my, like my wife, I said, Sarah, I'm just telling you, the person's just begging you to listen to where he's coming from. Then you can say, I don't agree. Or I think you're wrong, or I think you're mean, or I think you're denying women's rights.

Say whatever you want, but at least understand where they're coming from.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, exactly. And you wouldn't want

Joe Davis: to say all those mean things if you do that, then you'll actually say something different.

Matt Edmundson: But it's interesting because that takes time, right? That level of understanding, that level of conversation, you've got to be invested.

So it's 12 seconds of A, B, C, and then it's 12 seconds of Crouch, what's that, whatever, you know, one of the characters, Big Bird. So we're all, so you could think of one of the candidates in our country who's brilliant at one liners

or two liners.

Joe Davis: And last night I was with my family and they're like, man, he didn't say anything.

I said, no, he says a lot. He just says it in four words and you remember. You can think what you think of the candidate. I don't care, but his marketing is genius in today's 12 second world, but if it goes to your point, there's no real conversation. You can't even have a conversation. Now, now you and I are getting.

We can get ourselves depressed here, so let's watch.

How do you fill your tank? How do you stay sharp? How do you make sure that your own personal sense of being, you know, talking about to be, how do you stay? On top of your game is that, do you have like stuff that you do? Are you an exercise guy? What's your, what's your secret to success?

Joe Davis: Yeah, I'm going to be quick.

First and foremost, well not first, there's two main points actually. One, I am a runner. I started running when I was 13. And so I've been running about 50 plus years. Now I'm two or three miles through four to seven days a week. So it's not like it used to be. It doesn't matter. But I literally say like if something happened to me and I couldn't run.

a

Joe Davis: lot of energy.

So, you know, COVID was, well, the, the, the town, I did town halls at BCG and I figured out how to lurk right in that camera into you. And so I'm not actually, I can think I'm talking to 5, 000 people and they say, how did you talk to us all? When you didn't see us, how do we all know you? So I think the other thing for me is just being around, making sure I'm around people in some engaged, not in a stadium of 10, 000, but in some engaging way that I get a lot of energy from.

And if

The sound traveled through the air. So that's now it's just in my ear. That's over. And then my, then my brain finally, now it's all nanoseconds, but you know, my brain processes that a long time after the bark. So the anger is only my problem, ain't the dog's problem, the dog barked and moved on, you know?

It's a very silly little stupid thing, but I thought, okay, so I better get over the barks, because it's only me, it's hurting, it doesn't hurt anybody else to be mad about the barks. So that, that whole philosophy of the meditation thing and the self reflection and just breathe and, you know, it's going to pass, whatever Buddhist thing you want to say, it's been quite powerful for me too.

You're the center of the universe, right? And I went to this children's home and I was humbled is the only word I know how to describe it. Um, because you very quickly find out actually the universe does not revolve around you. And there are some, there are some kids in this world who are. affected in ways in life that you have never been affected.

And, um, I, I became, I was very, very humbled and all of a sudden became quite grateful. Um, and don't get me wrong. I definitely wasn't perfect as a teenager, but I remember it being quite life changing, you know, that actually it, and this is, I think sometimes mindfulness and just thinking things through like that, you start to realize actually it's, I'm not at the center of this universe, guys.

Well,

Uh,

Matt Edmundson: yeah, or the state had taken the kids away from their parents for whatever reason, or some of the parents maybe needed a bit of respite. Um, yeah, they all had their own stories and none of them,

Joe Davis: you know, that was your version, much more powerful. Well, maybe not. It's just different for my, whether it's my dad, gay, but you know, these moments that you're kind of have to be lucky enough, even if they're hurtful to have those things.

Yours wasn't

hurtful.

Joe Davis: It's lucky if you have those when you're younger, I hate to say it, but I don't know what to tell you when you're already 60, but it's quite a gift, even if it may be shocking when you're there or hurting or whatever it is, if you get through it, if you can't get through it, then I understand that you're going to have other issues.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, no, exactly. Well, I was, you can't have a testimony without a test, right? And I think

it's,

Joe Davis: Yeah. Yeah. The interesting thing is that takes, I know, it takes a lot of insight at the moment to know, cause you probably didn't sit there and say, Oh, look at this, the world's changing. I'm not, you know, you slap back and reflected maybe a little then, maybe a little two years later and a hell of a lot 20 years later, wow, that experience was something, you know?

Um, so don't beat up yourself if you don't notice it while you're there, but take time to reflect on moments that were meaningful and say, why was that meaningful?

Matt Edmundson: Yeah. Fantastic.

Joe Davis: Thank you.

Matt Edmundson: Joe, listen, I'm aware we could, I'm thoroughly enjoying this conversation, brother. I really am. I'm really enjoying talking to you.

But I'm also aware that you've got a call that you need to get onto. So, if people want to reach out to you, if they want to connect with you, if they want to find out more, maybe read the book, what's the best way to do that?

Joe Davis: Well, if you want to connect, I think I do. Follow the Messages thing on LinkedIn now.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, fantastic. We will of course link to Joe in the show notes, uh, which will be on your podcast app.

If you're listening to the podcast, just scroll down, look at the show notes, or of course, you can go to the website, pushtobemore. com, where they will also be along with the transcript, actually, if you want to get a transcript of today's show. But Joe, listen, man, I thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyed our conversation.

I feel like we need to do a part two, part three, a part four. This

Joe Davis: was fun.

Matt Edmundson: It

Joe Davis: was interesting. Let me say that very fast.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, thank you. Well, I know it's great. Great chatting to you, man. And, um, I, I, I really appreciate it. And, uh, thanks for coming on.

Joe Davis: Yeah. Thank you. This was

Matt Edmundson: awesome. Wow. That's a wrap on another great conversation.

Check it out, podjunction. com. Honestly, you're not going to be disappointed. Now, remember, keep pushing to be more. Don't forget to follow the show wherever you get your podcasts from, because we've got some more seriously compelling conversations up our sleeve and I don't want you to miss any of them.

Any of them. And in case no one has told you yet today, let me be the first. You are awesome. Yes, you are. Created awesome. It's just a burden you have to bear. Joe's got to bear it. I've got to bear it. You've got to bear it as well. Now, Push To Be More is created by Podjunction for the transcript or show notes.