In this special episode of CLOC Talk, we take you to the 2025 CGI mainstage with the recording of our Powerhouse Perspectives panel discussion. In this thought-provoking discussion, moderator Aine Lyons dive into challenges and opportunities AI presents for legal, with panelists Karen Gally, Eric Dodson Greenberg, and Casey Flaherty. They explore key insights from McKinsey and Deloitte reports, discuss why legal departments must lead AI adoption proactively, and share strategies for integrating AI into daily workflows. 

 From the power of storytelling and data analysis to the importance of curiosity and cross-functional collaboration, this conversation offers a roadmap for legal professionals looking to become AI experts within their organizations. Tune in for practical advice, strategic insights, and a forward-thinking perspective on evolving with technology. 

Thank you to our 2025 CLOC Global Institute CLOC Talk sponsor, DeepL.

Episode-109-Live-from-the-CGI-Stage-The-Powerhouse-Perspectives-converted:

Welcome to the Corporate Legal

2

Operations Consortium Podcast, where

we dive deep in conversations with

3

technology and legal operations, thought

leaders from across the ecosystem.

4

This is Clock Talk.

5

In this special episode of Clock Talk.

6

Recorded live from the 2025 CGI.

7

Main stage moderator Anya Lyons

leads a powerhouse conversation

8

with industry leaders, Karen Galley.

9

Eric Johnson Greenberg and

Casey Flaherty on unlocking AI's

10

true value in legal operations.

11

Together they explore insights

from McKinsey and Deloitte reports,

12

share strategies for integrating

AI into daily workflows, and

13

discuss why legal teams must take a

proactive approach to AI adoption.

14

Beyond technology, this discussion

dives into the power of storytelling,

15

data analysis, and the importance

of cross-functional collaboration.

16

Whether you're looking to become an

AI expert within your organization, or

17

seeking practical ways to drive impact,

this episode has something for you.

18

It is my absolute pleasure

to lead this conversation.

19

And we're gonna really delve

into three big questions.

20

How do we unlock the true value of ai?

21

How do we position this community

to lead that transformation?

22

And I think most importantly, how

do we all develop the skills that we

23

need to thrive in an AI first world.

24

And to help us explore these important

questions, I am joined by three phenomenal

25

powerhouse leaders, Casey, Karen, and

Eric, and they are doing this every

26

day, translating the overwhelming hype

around AI and delivering that into

27

tangible outcomes and re-imagining how we

deliver legal services in this new era.

28

So Casey, I'm gonna start with you

because you talk to so many parts

29

of this ecosystem, and you've been

around the world this last year doing

30

a lot of research in this space.

31

What are you seeing in terms of hype

versus real value, and what are the

32

challenges to delivering the ROI?

33

AI, unfortunately is both

over-hyped and under hyped.

34

It's over-hyped in terms of what we think

it can do immediately today without.

35

Any kind of choices being

made or work being done.

36

I think it's also under hyped in

terms of how profound the implications

37

are for the, not just the medium

and long term, but the near term.

38

And one of the biggest challenges

is understanding that dynamic,

39

that it won't just happen.

40

It has to be built.

41

On the other hand, it's going to happen.

42

It's either going to

be done by us or to us.

43

We have this Deloitte survey I looked at.

44

96% of GCs believe that they're

gonna need to make room in their

45

legal budget to support all of

the company's initiatives on ai.

46

That is more important than how we

use AI is how the companies we serve

47

use AI and how legal supports them

in doing it, because it's gonna be

48

fundamental to their own transformation

as businesses and their ability to

49

compete in a rapidly changing economy.

50

So 96% we're gonna have more work.

51

Conveniently, 96% of GCs also believe that

AI is gonna radically reduce legal costs

52

so that they're able to service that work.

53

And I would say the other 4% are wrong.

54

But when we survey legal ops

professionals, 99% of them identify

55

material barriers to actually adopting ai.

56

And 95% of them say those

barriers include their in-house

57

counterparts, including their GCs.

58

And so one of the biggest challenges

we have is true leadership buy-in.

59

And that means actual understanding,

not vague sense, a belief that

60

this is going to be important and

it's gonna have a material impact,

61

but actual commitment to making it

important and having material impact.

62

And leadership's leaders

like almost everyone else

63

are on a normal distribution.

64

And so at the far end, you have

outliers who are really invested in it.

65

Like our friends who have

joined us on stage, almost by

66

definition are truly invested.

67

And that is ideal, but not

without its challenges.

68

'cause if you have a GC who's really

committed, you better be ready to

69

go 'cause things are moving fast.

70

And on the other end,

unfortunately, some people are in

71

situations that are impossible.

72

There's nothing you can do to change

their mind or change their ways.

73

And they need to be changed

by the organizations they work

74

in before anything happens.

75

But most people are

somewhere in the middle.

76

And the middle is a very hard place

to be because you need to persuade.

77

You need to coach, you need to help along

people who have some degree of openness,

78

but some degree of closed offness because

they're busy 'cause they're scared,

79

'cause they're uncomfortable because they

have other competing priorities and the.

80

Human pieces of it are much harder than

the technology pieces of it, though the

81

technology pieces of it are still harder

than many of us would like to admit.

82

I think that resonates with

all of us because there is this

83

disconnect between CEOs are now

saying to chief legal officers,

84

you know, what's your AI strategy?

85

Come and present it.

86

At the same time, you're advising

on all the complexities of ai, and I

87

know, Karen, you actually stepped up.

88

At your company, not just on the legal

side of obviously dealing with all

89

of the new regulation and everything

that's coming, but I stepped up to say,

90

Hey, legal are ideally positioned to

lead our AI strategy at the company.

91

Tell us a little bit about that and what

are you seeing as the broader adoption

92

issues and also the opportunities.

93

I think Casey summed it up well and

the adoption issues stem from human

94

behavior and the scary word of change.

95

But yes, what you're referring

to is we've been undergoing a

96

journey for the past year on.

97

Really developing leadership

capabilities and adopting a mindset

98

of being business solution owners.

99

Just generally, not specific to ai, but

just generally, you know, not being a

100

department that just, you know, stops

with identifying a risk, but really

101

partnering with our business stakeholders

to really identify a solution and work

102

towards a solution and be a true partner.

103

But then that also applies to ai.

104

Obviously.

105

I think some of the challenges also are.

106

Lawyers are very perfection oriented

and we see the limitations of AI and

107

some of the hallucinations and things

that happen, and so there's a hesitancy

108

to say it's a great tool, you know, to

really put all your chips down on ai.

109

We've come to refer to it as our

robot intern, and maybe soon it'll

110

be our robot junior associate

and then progressing up further.

111

As the AI itself matures and as

we gain a better ability to work

112

with it, I think that'll happen.

113

But there still are examples of those

flaws that we see and that I think

114

drives lawyers inherently crazy.

115

And so there's then, you know, well, I

saw this one problem and I'm not gonna

116

adopt it wholesale, but I think it, it

really does come down to human behavior.

117

And I think the ability to

see what the possibilities are

118

with AI and really understand.

119

How that could make life better.

120

It is here, as Casey said, it's a

tool to be used to really better

121

our work environment and to make

our companies more profitable and

122

secure the future for our companies.

123

So.

124

Yeah, in a workday, we talk

a lot about elevating humans.

125

It's not gonna take our jobs if we

lean in to really embrace and learn and

126

understand the complexities, and also be

that protector of when it's not working

127

and calling that out at our companies.

128

Eric, you've taken a really.

129

Thoughtful approach.

130

And at your company when we

chatted, I heard a lot about

131

you're now the department that's

leading in terms of usage of ai.

132

How did you take it from strategy

into turning that into action?

133

I think generative AI is really

well suited to what we do.

134

I mean, lawyers are in the word

business, we're in the concept business.

135

And so finances had the

tools for a long time.

136

I think generative.

137

AI gives us the tools to do what

we do more efficiently, and I think

138

we continue to find use cases.

139

So we certainly have started by

using it in our billing practices

140

and it's given us more metrics,

more data, more transparency.

141

It's speeded up that process.

142

How.

143

Acknowledge in the safety of

this room that reading bill's

144

not my favorite part of my job.

145

So doing that faster, making our

guidelines work has really been helpful.

146

It's also improved our

contract review process.

147

It's created transparency.

148

I think that's allowed us to build

trust and partnership with the people.

149

In the field who now see where we

are with their documents and has

150

created a sense of partnership.

151

And so they don't just think the

document's gone off and to the ether.

152

They see us working

collaboratively with them.

153

Even within our own department.

154

We've seen our compliance team saw how we

were using it in the contract process and

155

said, wait a second, we could use that.

156

And so we're even finding new

use cases within the department.

157

I mean, then I would say more

broadly, we're using it in our

158

document management system.

159

We get asked to summarize

documents, to create charts.

160

In many ways, once the document is

done, it takes on a whole second

161

life of people asking questions.

162

It's really made that part.

163

Easier for us.

164

You know, we like our documents and so

it's allowed us to use them as forms to

165

use a tone or language from a particular

document again, and I will say even

166

we've seen it as another perspective.

167

So we had a mediation.

168

In a litigation we're involved in at

working with the law firm that had kind

169

of a sandboxed version of their AI tool.

170

We put in the facts of the case and what

our strategy was and what we thought.

171

The other side strategy, and you know,

this guy's, and by the way, this guy's

172

a jerk and, and we think this is a

weak argument and we got back a very

173

thoughtful strategic perspective.

174

Now, we didn't just.

175

Say, oh, well, we'll

do what the robot said.

176

It's another perspective that compliments

what we're thinking about and doing.

177

And so the use cases go from just data

and metrics to just the very concepts

178

that make what we do different.

179

And at Workday, similarly, we've

been thinking of how can we use it?

180

In a way that not just enables legal, but

across the enterprise to other functions

181

and really focused on sort of business

intelligence of what we have in all the

182

hundreds of thousands of contracts with

customers, with vendors, and unlocking

183

that information and synthesizing it

and making it available in a really

184

customer friendly way to internal

functions, which were on that journey

185

and really, uh, excited about that.

186

But what you said, because.

187

Many of us have been in this roles

either starting out or we're at different

188

points in our career, but this is a

moment that we could really seize.

189

And when you say CEOs are saying,

I want legal to use ai, I want

190

the whole company to use it, I

want legal specifically to use it.

191

And then we've got legal ops people.

192

As the people who can enable GCs to

actually deliver on that promise.

193

And I think we're uniquely positioned

with the skill sets that this community

194

has to turn innovation into impact in

this space, but not just for legal,

195

but we can be catalysts across the

enterprise because if GCs are starting to.

196

Work on this across the enterprise that

enables this community to work across

197

the ENT entry side and almost lead

this AI revolution at our companies.

198

Because I think whether it's shaping

data strategy, advising on responsible

199

ai, influencing tech investments that

the company makes, we are driving

200

the scalable adoption back to the.

201

Mindset and the culture piece as well.

202

And we're really at the heart of this

conversation, but many of us in our role

203

still find ourselves sometimes reactive.

204

And have you any advice, and I'll

start with you, Karen, on how

205

we can shift from being reactive

to driving the transformation.

206

What do we need to do?

207

What kind of behaviors do we need to start

modeling to really enable us to do that?

208

You know, this reflects on the

journey that I've been taking the

209

department through and you know,

obviously it's not just me alone.

210

I have my senior leadership team standing

with me and it really comes to recognize.

211

How you look at things, and a lot of

times it's assumptions that you make.

212

There's a core concept in what we're

doing that's called your little

213

voice, and it's that narrative

that's running in your head.

214

And a lot of that is often based

on assumptions and not fact.

215

And the way that we define it is, is

what you're talking to yourself, really.

216

Some of.

217

Fact that would stand up in a

court of law, which is relevant

218

for everybody who, you know,

coincidentally talks about court of law.

219

But a lot of times you are running a

narrative in your head that's just based

220

on your assumptions of whether you can do

it or what this person's intentions are.

221

And really diving down into

that and looking at how you are

222

operating in your own space.

223

It also looks at some of you may

be familiar with Stephen Covey,

224

and this kind of borrows from the.

225

Begin with the end in mind,

but it's called Stand in the

226

Result and Look in the future.

227

And where do you want to end the process

that you're currently working on?

228

And then clearly define

your path to get there.

229

There's more to it, but it really works

on a concept of breakthrough mindset.

230

And it also leans heavily on

relationships, which I think are

231

very important in the legal ops

department because I think sometimes

232

people think, well, I'm just.

233

Legal ops, and that just is

the word that holds you back.

234

You can really step out and have

a significant impact on the legal

235

department and then on the enterprise

itself, because that's the role

236

that the the department plays.

237

And Casey, if you think if we did get it

right, if we can be those catalysts across

238

the enterprise, like what would the future

legal department and law firm look like?

239

What are the opportunities

there for real change?

240

It will look very different

in terms of orientation.

241

Right now we are extremely task oriented.

242

In the future, we would be more system

oriented, more programmatically oriented.

243

We would be more builders

than doers in a lot of cases.

244

And where we are doing, we're operating

in the novel spaces, in the gray

245

areas, being in the rooms where the

hardest decisions are being made, and

246

they're the hardest decisions because.

247

We don't actually know the answer

because there is risk and benefit

248

on both sides, and law departments

aren't in those rooms nearly enough

249

in nearly enough corporations because

they're very busy doing the work.

250

And the work consumes all of the energy.

251

And we've been talking for decades

about process and technology being

252

applied to legal service delivery.

253

And the noise to signal

ratio is very depressing.

254

A big reason for that is that at most

corporations, legal spend is a percentage

255

of revenue is a rounding error.

256

At a Global 200

corporation, it's about 0.1%

257

of revenue.

258

Compare that to contract leakage.

259

Uh, your average corporation

is about 9% of revenue, so it's

260

many orders of magnitude bigger.

261

And legal doesn't own contracts

in the sense that they're

262

fundamentally legal in nature.

263

They're fundamentally.

264

Commercial in nature, they're business

contracts, but legal can lead on

265

contracts like many other things

by finding ways to reduce friction.

266

And if legal is leading, we can

achieve what we've always wanted to,

267

which is how to deliver at scale.

268

And that is how do we embed legal

knowledge in business process.

269

As opposed to just embedding technology

in legal processes and that fundamentally

270

changes the relationship between the

business and the law department will also

271

cascade down to law firms where, again,

their traditional advisory work, their

272

specialization, really comes to the foray

as opposed to their ability to muster

273

armies of junior associates to grind.

274

Through work.

275

And so it's a very different world.

276

It's not one with less legal work, it's

more because we've increased volume

277

and velocity, but the work is different

and how the work is done is different.

278

So it presents all kinds of opportunities

and you know, you preface yours if,

279

and it's a big if 'cause there are

also many risks on the other side,

280

although we can cover that later.

281

You talked about that like law

firms are evolving in a way where

282

they're having to think about how to.

283

Resize their investments and refocus.

284

And we talked about like they're

spending a lot more on technology

285

now and then in-house teams

are taking some work in-house.

286

But this community we've been talking

about, like does that change the

287

billable hour concept over time

or what are your thoughts on that?

288

So raise your hand if you've complained

at all about law firm rate hikes.

289

They have gone up quite a bit,

but most of you'll be surprised to

290

learn that their technology spend

is going up faster than their rates.

291

Because they are feeling this pressure.

292

And in fact, yesterday the regulatory

authority in the UK approved

293

the very first AI flaw firm.

294

It's an AI centered product that

offers legal advice to consumers,

295

but it's fundamentally AI in its

orientation and it's now legal for it

296

to deliver legal services in the uk.

297

And so this is coming for law

firms in a very material way.

298

As we bring the work in-house or we look

elsewhere, you can hire an agent, which

299

is, I know something you know about.

300

One of the fundamental questions

we all have to ask is where

301

things happen in the value chain.

302

So one of the first use cases for legal

AI was legal research makes a lot of

303

sense 'cause it's superpower is reading.

304

And you can arm a junior associate,

a law firm with AI and it can help

305

that person write a memo or a brief.

306

Or you can give it to the partner in

lieu of that junior associate, or you

307

can give it to the in-house counsel

and they can use it either instead

308

of the law firm or they can produce

it and send it to the law firm and

309

say, just stress, test this for me.

310

Give me a gut check on it, which is a

very different kind of relationship.

311

Or it might be in the hands

of the business person who

312

asked legal for advice.

313

Which is a scary proposition, right,

if you're the in-house person, but

314

this is a scary proposition for

anyone along that value chain and for.

315

Different kinds of applications.

316

There's gonna be different places in

the value chain where it makes sense,

317

and that's going to shift over time

as the technology gets better and

318

constantly reorienting ourselves.

319

And how we work to that evolving

technology is going to be, again,

320

challenging and an amazing opportunity.

321

And we're not always

going to get it right.

322

Sometimes we're gonna hold on to

dearly to things we should let go.

323

And other times things are gonna

be taken away from us that really

324

shouldn't and many mistakes will be

made, but the opportunities are there.

325

And now a brief message from our sponsor,

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333

Just to build on that, Karen and Eric,

we were talking about how important

334

the legal ops role is to both of you.

335

You've invested significantly based

on the size of your departments.

336

Even a significant percentage of

your team are legal operations

337

folks, and you were talking about how

strategic that is for you in the role.

338

And if you haven't read, Eric has written

some great material on this and how to

339

work in a, in an ambiguous world as a gc.

340

But Eric, I wanna start with

you because you believe that.

341

It is also the GCs role to really

elevate the legal ops role so that they

342

can deliver more and be very strategic.

343

How do you go about doing that?

344

And Karen, we'll build on that

because I know you've got a lot

345

of work that you've done there

too, but do you wanna start Eric?

346

I think the GC has a bully.

347

And that's one of the

ways we set priorities.

348

So really the first way is to communicate

to the department that it's important.

349

But I think where legal ops

comes in is you have to give us

350

a reason for it to be important.

351

The worst thing I think we can do

is to say, oh, here's this shiny

352

new thing we bought that's all.

353

Admire it and put it on the shelf

and go back to saving on our desktop.

354

I think that's where the

partnership comes in.

355

I see legal ops as really

our ambassador to the future.

356

But it's my job to elevate that

and articulate the value because my

357

imprimatur is the general counsel

matters, but it can't just be empty.

358

It can't be, let's just get

the next system upgrade.

359

It has to make sense.

360

But if it makes sense, if it's

strategic, and we can articulate

361

that, and that's where it's really a

partnership with Legal Ops, I think you

362

can communicate a really important value

proposition and you will get buy-in.

363

And I think you make sure that the

legal ops professional on your staff

364

is at the table, is presenting, is

sharing the metrics, and you set

365

them up as I care about this topic.

366

And that enables them as well,

which is fantastic because not

367

everybody has that as we know.

368

That is not the case for everybody.

369

So huge.

370

Thank you for doing that.

371

And I love ambassadors for the future.

372

I think we're gonna brand that everybody.

373

Yeah.

374

Clarin, when you talked about the

legal ops role, to me, it felt for

375

you it, this is a critical role

for you in running the function.

376

Can you share why you think that?

377

Because it is great for people in this

room to hear how important that role is.

378

And in many cases, the legal ops

person is the person that's closest

379

to the GC and is aware of the budget

challenges, the company strategy

380

challenges, and is trying to help the

GC navigate that in the background.

381

And can you talk a little bit

about why that role and why you've

382

invested so much in legal operations?

383

Sure.

384

Yeah.

385

I mean, we work for businesses.

386

Speaking just for myself, but you

know, perhaps more general for lawyers.

387

And we're not great at telling the

business story of what we do as a legal

388

department and legal ops is really that,

that enables me to tell that story.

389

You know, we are.

390

In the g and a column of the

budget, we need to be able to

391

have people understand what we do.

392

A lot of what the legal

department does is unseen.

393

We know our value, but other people

in the business don't always know it.

394

And so we need to be

able to externalize that.

395

And it's the storytelling with our

data and how we communicate and

396

legal ops is critical to that effort.

397

And you know, I'm embarrassingly

terrible at telling the story.

398

I used to work in corporate communications

before I went to law school and I know.

399

That I hire great lawyers.

400

I have great lawyers on my team,

have accomplished some great things

401

in my career, but turning that

around and telling that story, I

402

need my legal ops team to do that.

403

And other functions do that so well,

back in the day, I would watch like

404

marketing and sales present to our CEO

and think, God, we've gotta do better.

405

Ours would be so much less compelling

and not aligned to the CEO's strategy.

406

And I think that's part of the key too.

407

So it sounds like it's, you know, it

is technology, it is strategy, but.

408

Change is really about people's

behaviors, people's mindset, and this is

409

almost like a cultural transformation.

410

This move to ai.

411

How do we keep up and embrace new

skills and lead with curiosity

412

and courage in a moment that is.

413

Challenging and I think having

that growth mindset to succeed.

414

I wanted to ask all of you about the top

skills that you feel are going to enable

415

us not just to succeed, but really to

lead and thrive in this new environment.

416

And Legal Ops has the opportunity

also to kind of lead the skills

417

development program for our departments.

418

You know, at Workday we're doing

AI Fridays we're leading like.

419

Many of your teams on our adoption

of ai, but it takes intentional,

420

programmatic work to make that stick.

421

So I'll start with you, Casey.

422

What do you think?

423

What's the most important skill

you would say that people need

424

to lean into Active curiosity?

425

Both Shopify and Duolingo released

internal memos in the past week

426

that they are now AI first.

427

That is, if you want head count, you

have to explain why AI can't do the job.

428

We should take that kind of mindset

into our tasks, into our programs,

429

which is almost anything that we do.

430

The question, can AI do it

better, or can AI make it better?

431

And that takes time, especially 'cause

AI is very weird and very frustrating.

432

But the only way to learn is to learn

by doing because it doesn't make, uh,

433

intuitive sense in a lot of respects.

434

And so by having that AI first

orientation and trying to use it.

435

All the time for lots of different things.

436

It will not always make it better,

but you will learn what it can

437

do and what it can't do, and

also start to understand why.

438

Why it can do it, why it can't, including

what it might be able to do in the future.

439

When I assign things to junior resources,

when they come back with whatever the

440

output is, I also require them to tell

me how they use AI to produce the output.

441

Where the AI helped, where it did not.

442

And why it didn't help

where they thought it would.

443

And in particular, is there some barrier,

whether it's context, windows, document

444

structure, lack of access to data that

could be overcome in the future so

445

that we could further automate whatever

it is we're trying to accomplish.

446

And so rather than hiding their work and

over half of AI use at work is unapproved,

447

people are, they have shadow AI to help

them 'cause they wanna look better.

448

I want people.

449

To be right out there saying, yes, I used

it, and the more I used it, the better.

450

As long as the output is the

quality that it needs to be.

451

So there's a lot of experimentation,

failing, experimenting, again,

452

just leaning in and learning.

453

About ai, how it works out.

454

And I think that helps also with when

we're giving advice to the business.

455

If we know more about AI and how it works,

I think our legal advice gets better.

456

Even on compliance with all the

regulations that are coming.

457

There's so much that we have to think

through about bias and all of the

458

hallucinations and all of the different

challenges that we're going to have.

459

Karen, you talked a lot

about storytelling earlier.

460

'cause I also agree storytelling

is a skill because you think of

461

what machines will not be able

to do or AI won't be able to do.

462

They can do storytelling.

463

But it's the context

that we talked about too.

464

Yeah.

465

But what other skills

are you thinking through?

466

Well, I wholeheartedly agree with what

Casey said about just learning the

467

possibilities of what can be done with

AI and being open to learning that.

468

But on top of that, I think that the

storytelling with data is critical and

469

being able to apply the results of what

you get with AI to your business, to

470

your department, to make it relevant.

471

You know, you can just spew out

data that may or may not be useful.

472

To externalize or to even to

share within your department.

473

Also, I, I've been in sessions and I've

heard people say, you know, I'm so busy.

474

I have a lot of work.

475

I'm a department of one.

476

That data is what you use to tell the

story of what you accomplish and what

477

additional resources you may need.

478

So really being adept at what

data to collect and how to

479

represent it and what words to

put around it is a critical skill.

480

I, I agree with that.

481

I see legal ops is really a fulcrum

between what's the tech that's available

482

and what's the use case that we need.

483

And in a sense, I think one

of the skills is to be sort of

484

an expert in legal ergonomics.

485

How do people work?

486

How are they doing their job?

487

'cause you know about tools that we

don't, that may make that job easier.

488

And when you tell us how we can do

something easier, you have our attention.

489

But I think that's part of the key is for

legal ops to meet lawyers where they are.

490

And that's a lot of different places and

it correlates a lot to age older lawyers.

491

Like the way they're doing it, they

like their tape flags and their hard

492

copies and younger lawyers are more

apt to, you don't have to explain it.

493

I got it.

494

And there are a lot of people in between.

495

And I think the job of legal ops

is to meet that group of colleagues

496

where they are and to help be a

Sherpa leading them to the future.

497

How does this solve your problem?

498

And being able to translate the tech into

problem solving, I think is essential.

499

And I also really think about

solve a business problem.

500

Don't just solve a legal problem.

501

Get outta your silo, because if you

can solve a more enterprise wide

502

problem, there is so much budget

right now in your company somewhere.

503

It may be with your CIO, it could

be with your finance department,

504

it you're thinking broader.

505

You're more likely to get technology

support, company support, other

506

stakeholders who will go on the

journey with you so you're not alone.

507

And I think also that raises

the profile of legal ops

508

working across the enterprise.

509

We're thinking a lot

about agents right now.

510

Workday is all about agents.

511

We've got lots of super agents

coming, but even for legal, we're

512

saying, okay, how can we take

that agent story and internally

513

make sure we're building our data?

514

Knowledge base based on the persona

of the clients internally that will

515

want to use that agent and what

would be most effective for them?

516

What's the information and the service

that we could deliver autonomously,

517

perhaps through that agent?

518

So building our Agent X strategy

as well, but that takes.

519

Understanding the problem you're

trying to solve because there are

520

a lot of bright, shiny tools out

there that you can get distracted by.

521

Go back to basics, I think is what

you're all saying, and really think about

522

the problem, the benefit, the value,

and that actually is what the Deloitte

523

call to action for general councils.

524

They talked a lot about invest in

strategic AI use cases that deliver value.

525

Focus on user adoption and upskilling.

526

There are also, assess critically

your data stack and be AI ready.

527

Casey, you talked about that too, and

then partner across the enterprise.

528

I think that's the other piece is.

529

Don't go it alone if you can,

because if there's a broader benefit

530

to the company, it's compelling.

531

I think that goes to when you were

saying it, not just the legal problem.

532

A business problem is to know,

to network within the enterprise.

533

Look, reach out to your other operational

professionals so that you are ready

534

to identify what is a, an enterprise

problem that needs to be solved.

535

And then find the stakeholders.

536

'cause there are other stakeholders

and you can leverage your

537

GCs or your CLOs to help you.

538

Get in touch with those stakeholders to

have those conversations about the broader

539

use cases to get investment as well.

540

It works both ways.

541

I got a call from our CFO because they had

a very specific contract review function.

542

They had some software that they bought.

543

God knows when that they last looked

at God knows when, and he called

544

and said, you know, do you guys

want to take over this function?

545

And I called my legal ops colleague

and just neutrally raised the question.

546

He said, yes.

547

This is fantastic, and I said, you do

understand this is a trick question.

548

The CFO's not looking out for us.

549

This is a trick.

550

And she said, I know it's a trick,

but we can do it better, faster.

551

It's better for us, it's

better for the company.

552

She ended up presenting to our CEO and we

were able to articulate how the technology

553

that we had invested in was better, could

be applied to this additional function.

554

And save the company several hundreds

of thousands of dollars a year.

555

So it was a way that a problem came to

us very suspiciously, but we were able

556

to solve it and I think make a really

tremendous use case for how we were

557

thinking ahead in terms of technology.

558

And Karen, can I ask you, because a

lot of people say to me, you know,

559

I'm in a role, but I'm not getting

traction with my gc, or I'm not

560

getting the support that I feel I need.

561

And somehow that's a

two-way street, of course.

562

But any advice to people on how to be even

more valuable to their general counsels?

563

I mean, I always tell people, use your

voice and speak up and raise the issue.

564

I have a hundred things

flying by me every day.

565

It may not be intentional that

somebody in legal ops may say, you

566

know, I don't feel that I have value.

567

It just may be something you

need to speak up and raise it.

568

But if you've tried that and you

still don't have it, I think.

569

A, you're here, right?

570

You take your career very seriously

and value yourself as a professional.

571

We have a concept at Otsuka called G Show.

572

It borrows a Japanese concept of

self-actualization and you take on

573

a project of expanded responsibility

and you show that you can do it.

574

And if you have demonstrable results

and you can go to your GC and

575

say, look what I can do, I think

that's a very powerful action.

576

I know that takes time and it's

not something that's gonna happen

577

next week, but I think also.

578

Know your industry and know

your legal ops industry.

579

You know, as I said, you're here.

580

Use the resources that are here.

581

Use us.

582

I often go to conferences and spend

a ton of time in the exhibit hall.

583

I wanna know what's

happening in my industry.

584

Who are the leading vendors?

585

What services are they offering?

586

You know, really become your own expert.

587

Look at other people in your

company who are in similar roles

588

and how they're succeeding, and

really advocate for yourself.

589

I remember I had to do a presentation

to our CEO at one stage in a previous

590

role, and I was quite nervous and

I remember just asking his chief of

591

staff for some just speed mentoring

on how does he like to absorb data,

592

what could my storytelling be?

593

'cause I wanted it to be successful

for the legal team that we

594

were gonna elevate ourselves.

595

Our chief marketing officer in a,

in a previous role for me, helped

596

me think through how to market legal

and tell a story in a different way.

597

Just even a quick, Hey, could we

meet with your marketing team to

598

help us build compelling narratives?

599

What tips and tricks do you use?

600

And just to get our

creativity juices flowing.

601

Eric, what would you say?

602

One actionable thing that people can take

away that will make them more strategic

603

in their role about driving this change?

604

I think absorb what you're seeing here.

605

And take it back and report.

606

My professional arc began being very

skeptical about what Clock was, how it was

607

even an acronym, why there was an octopus.

608

It was all mysterious to me.

609

I came to appreciate what it was and now.

610

One of the most important meetings

that I have is with my legal ops lead.

611

When she comes back from clock,

I want to know what did you see?

612

What's going on there?

613

I'm not someone who's gonna

walk through the hall.

614

I learned about AI 'cause I got

one or two or 70 emails a day

615

telling me that there was ai.

616

But it was my legal ops colleague

who explained to me what this

617

is, what's the opportunity?

618

And I think that's.

619

Your job as an ambassador is to go into

the future, which is down the hall and

620

bring it back and explain it and help us.

621

And some of us are pretty analog people.

622

Help us understand what the

use case is and be proactive.

623

I did not come into the role

as a champion of legal ops.

624

I came in as someone who did not know

what legal Ops was, and it's understanding

625

from people like you what it could mean.

626

That I became a champion of it because

I saw the value proposition and I have

627

really tried to convey to our department,

we wanna be a modern legal department,

628

not because that's some glossy thing and

will get an award, but because that's

629

something exciting to be a part of,

that this profession is evolving, that

630

the nature of in-house is evolving.

631

And as Casey said.

632

Rapidly and in ways

that are really unclear.

633

I think it's really exciting to

be a part of that, and you really

634

are our chief navigators to help

us figure that out, you know?

635

And I think it's a huge opportunity for

us because everybody's grappling with

636

how much overwhelming hype there is

that legal ops can almost translate that

637

help everybody upskill, help everybody

understand how the technology works

638

and really lead the way there, Casey.

639

One piece of advice become

the AI dork in your company.

640

When I was just starting out as a

lawyer, the partner in the office

641

next to me was, he was a screamer.

642

He's normally screaming at me 'cause

I, it was his favorite associate.

643

But one day he was screaming out

into the ether, into the abyss

644

because the demon inside the machine

had taken away his precious files.

645

I swooped in and I hit undo and then

they reappeared and he looked at

646

me like I was some kind of wizard.

647

And from then on I was the tech

associate wildly miscast in many places.

648

The bar to becoming the

expert is actually pretty low.

649

Even though you aren't an expert,

you're the expert in that context,

650

and that gives you room to actually

become an expert, and this is something

651

that's worth being the expert in.

652

I know you are busy.

653

I know everyone has an enormous

amount on their plate, but I

654

work in a small partnership.

655

We don't have anyone in charge of ai,

but I'm the AI person simply because.

656

People see me using it all the time,

including just to generate funny memes,

657

and you should come to my session at

four 15 if you wanna see a lot of those.

658

But also for everything else, when I

produce memos, whatever it is, I will put

659

in the notes just how much I relied on ai.

660

And slowly, and now rapidly,

people are coming to me with

661

all of their AI questions.

662

Frankly, I don't need that work.

663

I don't even want that work.

664

But it happens kind of

naturally when you're a natural

665

dork, which I very much am.

666

I think it's reassuring though, 'cause

everybody feels right now are we behind?

667

Is every other legal department

ahead or law firm ahead?

668

And I think the truth is we're all just

starting to figure this out and we're

669

gonna go on this journey together.

670

But I think if you have the right

mindset and if you do take one action,

671

even if it's go back to your department

and do a debrief, find a way to

672

present, even if you're not on the

GC staff, but find a way to present.

673

Find a way to get people excited

about the future and really lean into

674

learning the technology because we

talked when we met, to prepare a lot

675

about how there will be those people.

676

Who don't lean in.

677

And there will be the people who become

experts in this field in the future.

678

And there will be two communities.

679

And my goal is let's not

leave anybody behind.

680

Let's try to encourage people

and make them feel this is a safe

681

community within Clark to say, I

don't know, reach out to people.

682

People are incredibly generous.

683

And I think also if you don't know

the person beside you, even here.

684

After this session, talk to them.

685

Ask them how their AI journey is going,

and be really open and honest about what's

686

working, what's not working, because

that's what makes us better I think.

687

Yeah.

688

Any final comments before we wrap?

689

I would just say in terms of

feeling like you're not caught

690

up, I think it's moving so fast.

691

Yeah.

692

You can jump on the carousel really at any

point, and so I wouldn't be discouraged.

693

I remember the turn on

Gen AI was for me so fast.

694

I got up when Monday.

695

Like, did they invent

gen AI over the weekend?

696

I, I just felt like what,

everyone was talking about it,

697

I didn't understand what it was.

698

Now chat, GBT has told

me I'm doing a great job.

699

I rely on it a lot.

700

You can catch up.

701

And certainly coming here

and seeing what's available

702

is a tremendous opportunity.

703

I don't think if you've gotta

sort of work your way up, the

704

scaffolding, it's so fast.

705

Jump on, find the thing that works

and start advocating for that.

706

Karen, any final comment?

707

I mean, I agree with that.

708

I think a lot of times coming

to conferences is it's, you

709

almost breathe a sigh of relief.

710

You're like, I'm benchmarked, right?

711

Where I should be every, you know?

712

Yeah.

713

We're not an outlier, and the

benchmark here is everybody's

714

still learning and jumping on.

715

But I mean, I do encourage everybody

to really get in the exhibit hall.

716

I think sometimes people come to

conferences and overlooked that.

717

I've gone to legal week multiple

times just with a one day pass

718

to go in the exhibit hall.

719

I don't go to any sessions.

720

So really use this opportunity to

interface with the companies and learn

721

what their products are, and you can

quickly become an expert in that.

722

Helps you make better choices.

723

Yeah.

724

Yeah.

725

Casey, I know I make people

very depressed when I say that

726

change management is a lie.

727

Um, and it's not that change management

isn't useful, actually, the techniques of

728

change management are extremely useful.

729

But there's a lie at the heart

of the discourse around change

730

management, that with good

management, all change is possible.

731

And that just isn't true.

732

There are places where the

conditions aren't right for

733

change, and I know I started there.

734

Yeah.

735

And people find that very upsetting.

736

And yet, change is a constant.

737

It's just we don't always drive it.

738

And so conditions do change,

but so do people's positions.

739

And so you are here because

you want to take back what you

740

learn and drive value for your

organization, but you're also here.

741

To drive value for yourself, to make

yourself more valuable in the future.

742

And so to the extent any of you are in

situations where change is somewhere

743

between extremely hard and impossible

learning isn't upskilling, isn't

744

preparing yourself for when conditions

change at your organization or when

745

you change organizations isn't.

746

And so.

747

Just because not everything is

available to you doesn't mean that

748

there isn't an enormous amount of

value you can derive from yourself.

749

What you learn here, what you take

back, what you decide to invest your

750

time in back in your organizations.

751

There is no finish line on this unless

you're very close to retirement and the

752

race is only going to speed up and there's

gonna be all kinds of opportunities

753

to jump in it at different points.

754

Yes, I can be a bit of a Debbie Downer,

but I'm fundamentally optimistic about.

755

Both the industry, the discipline,

and the individual careers of everyone

756

who is making these investments to

prepare themselves for now and for next.

757

I think there's a huge opportunity

for us all to learn and grow, and I

758

do think the conditions are right,

so let's seize the day on getting

759

people to really think about adoption

and their value for the future.

760

It's really about all of us

succeeding in a different future.

761

Thank you all so much for

joining us this afternoon.

762

We really appreciate you

763

and that folks about

wraps up this episode.

764

Thank you to Anya, Karen, Eric,

and Casey for sharing key ways

765

we can truly drive value from ai.

766

Catch this and other episodes of Clock

Talk wherever you listen to podcasts.

767

Thanks for listening.

768

Until next time.