Episode Summary

Join Harry Duran, host of Vertical Farming Podcast, as he welcomes to the show President and CEO of Unfold, Dr. John Purcell. John has dedicated his life to helping farmers safely and sustainably grow food using less of the earth’s natural resources.

In his new role as President and CEO of Unfold Bio, John is continuing this same mission to improve the food ecosystem with more sustainable, fresher, and better-tasting fruits and vegetables. In this episode, Harry and John discuss John’s previous work at Bayer and Monsanto, which led to innovations and diverse technologies for important global crops.

John opens up about the passion he has for sustainability, the respect he has for farmers and his family ranching operation in Montana.

Episode Sponsor

Ceres Greenhouse Solutions

Key Takeaways

• 
  
• 02:29 – Harry welcomes to the show John Purcell, who shares his background in vertical farming, the impact of COVID-19 and the value he places on sustainability
• 
  
• 
  
• 09:21 – What John learned from his time working at the U.S. Department of Agriculture and highlights from his career overall
• 
  
• 
  
• 16:12 – Leaders and mentors who have influenced John’s career
• 
  
• 
  
• 20:17 – John details his time at Bayer and the transition to his current role as CEO of Unfold
• 
  
• 
  
• 24:40 – John speaks to the challenges of growing a startup and building a team
• 
  
• 
  
• 29:58 – John reflects on the many segments of vertical farming and where Unfold operates in this landscape
• 
  
• 
  
• 36:45 – John defines the term ‘germplasm’ and talks about how he decides which crops to work on
• 
  
• 
  
• 43:28 – John provides his thoughts on preparing for unforeseen circumstances
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• 44:59 – A tough question John has had to ask himself lately, something John has changed his mind about recently and what excites John about the future of vertical farming
• 
  
• 
  
• 51:45 – Harry thanks John for joining the show and let’s listeners know where they can learn more about Unfold
• 
  

Tweetable Quotes

“Any definition of sustainability also has to include the economic sustainability for the farmer.” (09:01)

“It’s great to have incredible science – and we need incredible science – but if you’re using that science to come up with a solution that actually tackles a really big challenge we have, that’s just so rewarding.” (14:51)

“The missing ingredient has been genetics; it’s really been the biology side of things. And I think that they’ve done an amazing job of building these production facilities and are able to control the environmental parameters so exquisitely.” (28:34)

“A lot of the time and resources you spend to have that seed that works well – in open field for example – is to build in resistances to diseases or pests…so you have to have seed that withstands all of this variability from an environmental perspective.” (37:52)

“Anytime you can shave days off of how long it takes to get to the store and then to the consumer, that’s huge.” (42:23)

“One of the things I hope the industry does is don’t disparage other ways of producing foods cause everybody’s working their butts off trying to do things right. My mom always said, ‘don’t raise yourself by pushing other people down.’ And, I always took that to heart.” (49:27)

Links Mentioned

Unfold Website

Unfold Twitter

Unfold LinkedIn

John’s LinkedIn

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Mentioned in this episode:

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now available. Get your copy today at

igrownews.com/precision. One of the things I want to

really hope the industry does is don't disparage other ways of producing food, because

everybody's working their butts off trying to, you know, trying to do things right. My

mom always said, don't raise yourself by pushing other people down. And I always took

that to heart, right? You know, just, you can talk about your benefits without

being disparaging to the way other systems are, but let's build it

together, because especially in food and agriculture, There's fewer and fewer of us every

year in it, trying to produce for more and more people on the planet. So

let's think about it as we're all playing a part in this thing.

Welcome to the Vertical Farming Podcast, weekly conversations

with fascinating CEOs, founders, and agtech

visionaries. Join us every week as we dive deep into the

world of vertical farming with your host, Harry

Duran. Vertical Farming Podcast,

Season 2. Welcome back. If this is your first time listening, I'm positive you're in

the right place, as this is the show where we interview fascinating CEOs

and founders of the leading vertical farming companies from around the world.

I'm your host, Harry Duran, and in case you missed last week's episode, I had

a really inspiring conversation with Mario Vitalis. He's the

founder of New Age Provisions, and he told an inspiring

story about how he was able to get started with his container

farm and the impact that it's had in his community. Special thanks to our

episode sponsor, Ceres Greenhouse Solutions. If you're looking for a

greenhouse solution that will suit your specific climate and growing goals, then talk to an

expert from Ceres Greenhouse Solutions. Ceres combines

passive solar concepts, innovative climate control technologies, and

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ceresgreenhousesolutions.com, that's spelled

C-E-R-E-S greenhouse solutions dot com, to learn more.

This week, I get to speak to Dr. John Purcell. He's the CEO of

Unfold. John has dedicated his life to helping farmers safely and sustainably

grow food using less of the Earth's natural resources.

In his new role as president and CEO, John is continuing the same

mission to improve the food ecosystem with more sustainable,

fresher, and better tasting fruits and vegetables. In this

episode, we discussed John's previous work at Bayer and Monsanto,

which led to innovations in diverse technologies for important global crops.

John opens up about the passion he has for sustainability and the respect he has

for farmers, along with a mention of his family ranching operation in Montana.

I was fascinated to learn what John picked up from his time working at the

US Department of Agriculture and the highlights from his overall

career. We dig into some of the leaders and mentors who have influenced

John and how his time at Bayer led to the transition of his current role

as CEO of Unfold. We learn a bit about the challenges of growing a

startup and building a team, and John reflects on the many segments of vertical

farming and where Unfold operates in this landscape. All in

all, a fascinating discussion with someone who definitely has his finger on the pulse of

what's happening from the world of biogenetics. As a reminder, if you

enjoyed this episode or past episodes, I'd love it if you leave a rating and

a review at ratethispodcast.com/vfp.

Okay, let's get into this great conversation with John. So, John

Purcell, CEO of Unfold, thank you so much for

joining us on the Vertical Farming Podcast. Oh, Harry, thanks so much.

Pleasure to be here. So, given, uh, we love to

date stamp these things just as a point in time, we are at November 5th,

2020. I, I don't know about you, but I haven't been asleep earlier than

2 AM the last 2 nights. It sort of goes

with 2020 though. I mean, this whole year, yes, you know, everything is

Just kind of go with it because everything is what it is.

I've been seeing people compiling the list of things that happened in

2020. And when you put that list together, like Kobe Bryant dying,

COVID, the election, and some of these things, you're like, wait, that happened in

2020? I thought that was like last year. Exactly, exactly.

I think we're all waiting for January 1st. That's for sure.

So just as a check-in for you and your organization and

your family, what's been the impact from a COVID perspective?

Well, it's been interesting for me personally, professionally, of course, starting

a company with COVID So hiring people that you've only met

by video and

conference calls. Family-wise, it's hard

because I live in California, my kids are on the East Coast.

Although we did make the big drive

last month to get to the East Coast. So we're seeing them again. They've entered

our pod for the time being. The safety pod. The

safety pod, right, right, right. But yeah, we did the COVID test both ends.

So, you know, it's just, uh, um, it's hard because you, you know, you're just

used to certain things in life and you just can't do it. And so

you just, you know, like everything, uh, just take it a day at a time

and just keep plowing ahead. Yeah. I was looking

at your past education and I'm curious when, if you

can remember going, going that far back, when the interest in science

started for you. That far back. Thank you, Harry.

I appreciate that, the way you framed it up. So no, for me, for me,

I was just, I was one of those kids. I love being outdoors

and, and science. I love science too, but I love the nature

piece. And so for me, that was— that kind of went hand in hand. And,

uh, so, you know, I just love being active outside, but I also

had this— and, you know, I was always bringing home some animal or

another. You know, I just— I lived in DC actually, or right outside DC, but

there's woods everywhere. Okay. So Rock Creek and all that. So, but, uh, yeah, I

just always had kind of an interest like that. And then as I started in

school, And then you realize you're pretty good at science and math, it gets

easier. And so, uh, for me it was a pretty easy track actually to

say I'm probably gonna do something in the science math arena. Is it

one of those things— and I'm, I'm dating myself because I just turned 50 last

month, so I'm thinking about back when science labs

and all the— and, you know, at that time that the people, the kids who

took the science weren't, weren't the cool kids and you're like the nerdy kids. And

then later on it's like, okay, now we're the ones who are like starting companies

and, you know, it all comes full circle. Yeah.

I always loved sports too. So I had like 2 worlds, you know? And so

I was like, yeah, I was a science nerd. And then, you know, on the

teams they said, that's the guy that's a, he's a nerd, you know? But no,

but to me, it was, I always thought it was cool,

frankly. And it's funny, my daughter's actually

in agriculture communications and she was laughing. She goes,

dad, you're in vertical farming. You actually are cool now. I thought that, I

said, that's great. When you get the stamp of approval from a 27-year-old,

I said, all right, I'll take it. Yeah. Have you had a discussion with

her? Like, what do you think about it is cool to her, or what is

it, you know, that, that it's attractive to her? Because obviously she's in the industry

now. Yeah, and I think for her, because one of the drivers for her to,

to go into, uh, into agriculture was she has a really firm,

uh, commitment to sustainability, and she works, uh,

for, for a group, uh, Field to Market, that really deals with trying to tell

the story of, of farmers and sustainable practices. So, for

her, you know, she looks at technology and innovation

as enablers of sustainability. That's something I feel really strongly about. I

think sometimes people have this kind of romantic view that we got to go back

to the way we used to do things versus technology and innovation really

being an enabler of sustainability. So, for— I think for me and my daughter,

that's something, a passion we share, that, you know, we don't— you don't have to

look at innovation and technology as an antithesis to how to

grow food. It's actually— Yeah. a great enabler to provide the

kind of food and progress in the produce world, but all food

experience, the way, you know, consumers are asking questions,

not just about what the food is, but how it was grown, who grew it,

et cetera. But I really do think that we've got, you know, we're making progress,

people understanding that technology innovation can be a driver for

sustainability rather than, you know, running counter to

sustainability. When do you think that

became important for you? Or was that something you were taught or how you were

raised, this important thing, this idea of sustainability and then the importance of it? Because

it seems like it's something that's been also now passed on to your daughter.

Well, I think for me, so I grew up, I was born in DC. I'm

a native Washingtonian. We do actually exist. But I also

spent summers down at my aunt's corn and soybean farm, which

was right near the Chesapeake Bay. And growing up anywhere

near the Chesapeake Bay, if you come down to this area, you

see Save the Bay. You still see Save the Bay bumper stickers everywhere, right?

So, I think the Chesapeake Bay for all of us who grew up in this

area, It's

just such a pristine, unique ecosystem that

has to be preserved. But it's also in some ways kind

of a microcosm of the challenges we face because you have a

very robust and growing urban area, you know, the Washington, D.C.,

Baltimore, Philadelphia corridor, right? Huge population. People need jobs.

People need that. You have a lot of agriculture, basically Eastern Shore

and the Northern Neck of Virginia. There's a lot of agriculture in the area.

There's a lot of pressures from society. But then you have this amazing

natural resource, the Bay, right? And so I think for me,

it kind of cements that we got to figure out a way to do this,

right? You got to have a balance because people have to have jobs, people have

to have food, but can we do it in a way that growth

is, you know, is not going to destroy something that's absolutely so

precious to all of us in this area and really pretty unique in a

global perspective, that is the Chesapeake Bay? So for me, I think that kind of

cemented it in my mind that, yeah, let's think about how How can we do

sustainability? But I am a big believer, especially being in ag,

you know, any definition of sustainability also has to include the

economic sustainability for the farmer, you know, because it has to be—

you got to figure out the whole equation. How do we keep farms in business?

How do we keep food being produced? But how do we do it in a

way that is able to sustain those kinds of precious

ecosystems that we all want to sustain? Yeah, I couldn't agree more.

So when you graduated from college, you had a stint at the USDA.

And I'm wondering what you learned from that perspective, like working

in a governmental organization. Yeah. And for me, it was kind of a unique position

at USDA. I'll back up first though, Harry, because my

graduate work was pretty unique in that my thesis

advisor, Dr. Norgaard, great man, but he actually at

that time, this was in the '80s, he had a fledgling kind of biotech

company. He was doing corporate research for a

very large company, a US company, and then he had his

academic lab. As a graduate student, it was a pretty amazing

environment because— Yeah. In the early '80s, having a biotech, I was like,

really? Yeah, I thought this is really cool. So I kind of went, you know,

unlike a lot of graduate students, it's a very academic kind of atmosphere. It

was a very robust innovation kind of ecosystem in the lab, which

was cool. And so for me, I kind of got the bug that I love

science, but I probably love technology more. And what I

mean by that is it's the application of the science. It's what is the challenge

you're trying to solve? What's the solution? You're bringing, you're bringing through your

science, right? And so that kind of, uh, that's how it kind of for

me got me so interested in, okay, how can I apply that? And the

laboratory I was in at USDA was actually a lab that was

getting, uh, getting funding, uh, from corporate funding because USDA was

also— it did great, does and still does great basic research, but it

also tries to really address significant challenges for

American farmers and ranchers. And so Being at USDA made sense to me because it

was, I can apply my science, but I can do it in a way

that's trying to tackle real-world problems. And then how, what's the technology

that's really going to be the enabler? And then you went on to what was

going to end up being your largest, longest stint at a

company, working at Monsanto. So obviously,

there's probably a long enough story, we'd probably need a couple of episodes to dig

into everything you learned But there's something

about working at a big company, and I myself worked at

JPMorgan Chase. So there's challenges with what

you can and can't get done. So I'm wondering, as you think about the

arc of your career there, what are some of the highlights? Yeah, and I

think for me, just the transition to Monsanto,

it was St. Louis-based, right? When you're growing up on the East Coast, you're not

thinking, gee, I'm going to move to St. Louis when I grow up, right? It's

not even on your radar. Right? And so, I went out there and I was

happy. I loved what I was doing at USDA. It was right outside my hometown

of DC. It was like, life's good. My wife was like 7 months pregnant. We're

like, oh, we got, you know, grandchildren, grandparents are all there. Everything's

grooved, right? And she goes, what is this company? I said, well, they said they

want to talk to me. I'm going to go out and see what they're doing.

So, I flew out to St. Louis and this was in the

'80s, right? So, I went there and they had built this

purpose-built genomics facility in the '80s. I'm going, Are you

kidding me? I said, I looked at all the incredible

science technology, what they were putting into plant science. And I

said, man, these dudes are playing a different game. I mean, this is like

at a scale I had never seen for biology. But they had

this vision that was, and it was a very

chemical-based company. I mean, we were a small unit, the biotechnology

unit at Monsanto at that point, but they had this vision that biology

was going to be the driver. There were always going to

be— there still is a role for chemistry, for

pesticides, et cetera, but biology was really going to be

the next big thing, the next revolution in agriculture.

So I bought a St. Louis Cardinal hat and

my wife and I moved. It's 7 and a half months pregnant.

Actually, we moved right after my son was born. He was born in DC. We

moved out to St. Louis after that. But for me, it was just, This

vision that, you know, we were going to do stuff from really

trying to take full advantage of the modern biology, of

all the tools, the genomics, the genetics. Remember, at the same time, of course, there

was this massive effort on the Human Genome Project, right? And so you had being

driven by the biology revolution, being driven by pharmaceutical

and by medicinal uses, but agriculture was running a parallel track.

And so to be a part of something like that, It was really exciting.

And for me, those were amazing years because it wasn't just trying to

find a new product or something. It was really trying to figure out a

better way for farmers to grow their crops and to be part of something

that's so fundamental that, you know, we're going to be able to

have a seed that protects itself from insects. That's what I was—

I was an insect biochemist. So that's what I worked on was how can we

have that seed? And then looking, well, how does nature do it? And that's when

we found, I mean, this was known, Bacillus

thuringiensis, Bt, it's been used decades, 50, 60 years in

organic agriculture, right? We said, well, what if we take the gene from there,

have the plant produce that same protein that controls the pests?

But some of the learnings from that was definitely think big.

Don't think about what's the current market look like, what's the current, think

what would be optimal? What are ways to kind of bust through

the paradigms. And as it turned out, became a multi-billion-dollar

industry from a pretty small group. I credit Dr. Rob Fraley,

who headed the technology organization for many years for Monsanto. But

he taught me another thing that was really important. He said, and I really appreciate

it, he said, don't fall in love with the science, fall

in love with the solution. And I think what I always remembered to that was,

you know, it's great to have incredible science and we need incredible science,

If you're using that science now to come up with a

solution that actually tackles a really big challenge we

have, Harry, that's just so rewarding. You really feel like, oh my gosh,

this is not this little great science project

over here that everybody's going, what the heck are they working on? This is something

that really solves real-world problems. And I think for me, that was some of the

big lessons from Monsanto was don't kind of put the blinders

on trying to solve problems by the way, just finding a new way

that it's kind of consistent with the way people do it. Think bigger.

Think what's the real challenge, and then broaden your sphere on the

solutions. But also that focus on absolutely think about—

do all— do world-class science, but let's think about the solutions and let's

tackle really big challenges, which is what we tried to do. There's

a— I think it's a Benjamin Franklin quote that I'm probably going to butcher, but

it's around the idea— or sorry, it's probably Einstein. It says

you can't solve a problem using the same logic that

created it, um, in order to find a solution. There's something to

that. That's right, that's right, that's it. It's a very good quote. I'm gonna look

it up, see what actually the quote is. That's good

though. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, fact-check. No,

no, I don't mean by fact-check. I just want to make up— I want to

put my own personal kind of piggyback here on it. Yeah, yeah, I'll find it.

Cool. You mentioned, uh, something— you touched on, on one, one

example, but on the topic of leadership, Um, and as we

get to, you know, what your current role is, were there any other

leaders or, or mentors that you had a relationship with in Monsanto

that were critical, or that you think of now whose lessons are you're

currently applying? Yeah, and I think one of the leaders I had that taught me

something I always remembered is, you know, you're going to be leading teams, and, you

know, we were growing so rapidly because the, the, the, the

biotechnology piece became the company. And so we went from this small

research unit that then actually became the company, which was a very traditional

agro— you know, chemical company that really morphed into a

biology company. But the, uh, one of the things that one of my

former managers said, and I always appreciated, is even though you're leading the team,

make sure you have a piece that is yours that you're actually

doing too. So you're not just leading leaders, you have a piece of it that

they're seeing your contributions as well. And

I really took that to heart. And as my team grew and I finally, uh,

Um, they had a little ceremony when they took the pipette man away from me,

the way you actually dispense things in the laboratory. And so they said,

you're never coming to this bench. You just can't do it anymore. So they had

a little ceremony, played a little music, took away my pipette ceremonial part. It's like

that old, uh, that old Western where they took the things off the guy, the

brand or whatever it was called. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, but, but, but I always

tried to stay so that I actually had work of my own. So not

just leading leaders, but there was a piece of our organization or

of our goals that I was going to personally be very vested in so that

I'm not just seen as somebody that's leading all these

leaders, but we all have pieces that we're going to own and we're going to

do our— do the work themselves. I think it gets you a lot of respect.

The other piece I learned was don't stay just in the leadership bubble. Get

out to the farms, get out to the customers, get out. Oh yeah. Because

where it happens is on the farm, right? And so if you're not out there,

mud on the boots, we call it, right? And so if you're not out there

really seeing what's happening and seeing what challenges those

farmers face, how the heck are you going to come up with a solution if

you haven't walked their fields or their greenhouses or

glasshouses or their vertical farm and say, okay, let's really talk about

what solutions you really need. What were those conversations like, John?

Like being on the ground, getting those boots muddy, as you say? Oh no, I

love it. I love it because, you know, the thing is you just, you learn

so darn much, you know? And it's like the respect I have for

farmers and ranchers because, you know, what I

always love about is they're so good at boiling it down

to the absolute essence of what they really need. And they're very honest with you,

which I like to be honest with people too. You know where you

stand, you know what they actually need. And I think the other

thing that's been such a lesson for me is

the commitment that you just don't meet a farmer or rancher

who doesn't share that same commitment from a sustainability

standpoint. I mean, this isn't just about growing a crop or growing, you know, or

raising an animal. Yeah. It's about They want it not just for now

and not for the season. They want it for this decade,

this, you know, they're for their family to take. Generations. Yeah,

generations, right? And my brother and I have a ranch up in Montana. He runs

it full-time, and I just love it because he has that same

energy around. He's not just going to do it, he's going to do it right.

And I think you just don't meet too many farmers or ranchers who aren't really

trying to produce a crop. Of course, they want to, you know, they've got to

be economically viable, But they're also thinking about, how can I do

this better? How can I improve my operations? And they're constantly challenging themselves to do

that. And sustainability is top of mind for virtually all of them

because it's their land, their water, you know, they're, like you said, generational,

right? They want it to be there for their kids and their grandkids, et cetera.

So. It reminds me of that, someone obviously

started a company with this concept, but the Native American idea of

7 generations, like the work that you do has

repercussions and echoes going forward 7 generations. So

if we all thought about how we conducted our business that way, I think the

world would be a better place. Yeah. That's exactly right. Exactly right.

So talk a little bit about the impact and influence of Bayer.

You know, I think it was, it was one of those for, you

know, we, we had a very successful run at Monsanto. Bayer is a

very reputable and very highly respected corporation.

And for Bayer, I think the opportunity to really,

even though they had seed companies, I think they saw where the Monsanto

expertise, it was a pretty cool resource as far as the

genetics knowledge, the biology knowledge, the seed company knowledge.

And so for Bayer, I really enjoyed my time at Bayer. I was there a

couple years after the acquisition. Unfortunately, I was heading vegetable

R&D for Monsanto, and then Bayer offered me a very, very

similar role. So Um, it's pretty easy transition actually. And because the

other thing that worked with it was the fundamentals and sort of

the, the, the core value systems of these companies were very similar, which is

about innovation, about technology, but also trying to provide sustainable solutions in

the marketplace. So that made the transition, uh, fairly straightforward

actually. So naturally, you know, their, their part in the

creation of Unfold is what led to where you are now. So

what were those early conversations like? in terms of you being

considered for the position and how long did that

process take? I'm always curious about the origin story of how

people end up in these leadership roles, especially for new ventures, because I imagine

there's a lot of eyes, a lot of money being invested in this. So

deciding who is the right person for that position, I think,

is a decision that people investing in it don't take

lightly. No, exactly, exactly. But I think

for when I was with Bayer, we were trying to

work to develop new solutions, seed solutions, and digital

solutions for vertical farms within the Bayer Vegetable

R&D group. But it's challenging because there were, you know,

we had so many existing markets, you know, the open field and

greenhouse and glasshouse. So you're trying to carve out this smaller group with

an emerging sector, you know, you always got to

feed the beast, right? And so it's like you're constantly saying, well, this is the

current business, we got to get products for that. So we always had a challenge

there. And that's when the idea kind of came, you know, maybe this is better

because of the unique nature of the vertical farm, uh,

that creating a separate dedicated entity

would be the way to go. And so, you know, I was fully supportive of

that. Um, and then they asked me, would you be interested? And so I threw

my hat in the ring. And it was interesting, uh, Process, I'll

say, going through being the selection process. Like you say, when people are putting real

money down and both Barron Tomasic are involved in this, it's like,

yeah, they want to make sure that— especially for me, a lot of the questions

frankly were around, can you really do this? You've been in big ag for a

while. You've had it. I mean, I had a big group, 800-plus people

reporting to me at Invincible R&D. I love— they

said, we've seen you talk 100 times. You always say you have the best job

in the world. Why are you saying you want this job now? I said, well,

I did have the best job in the world, but this job's even better, right?

But I said, because fundamentally it's about helping people grow really

delicious produce. I said this, you know, and healthy

produce, etc. So I said, yeah. And the other thing

that really, I think, one of the big question marks that

kept coming up during the

interview process was around what

really drives you. And that's when, you know, some of the things I was telling

you, It's really about the solution side of things and that innovation side. And one

of the things I always tried to do through my times both at Monsanto and

Bayer was stay on the cutting-edge

piece. You know, we're always working on the latest stuff, and we were fortunate at

both Monsanto and Bayer, innovation is their enabler, right? So, but

I think for me, I had a real

interest in vertical farms. I really see it

as a significant player for the produce industry.

And, you know, frankly, personally, I've

accomplished a lot. I got no complaint. I've, you know, I've been all around the

world. I've headed big groups. I've had, you know, tremendous

opportunities and experiences. But one experience I never had

was heading a startup. And so it's like, let's go for it. So I threw

my hat in the ring, made it through the interview process, and here we

are. And it's been really cool. But it's a different world. There's no

question. And you don't have, you don't have 800 people behind you helping you out,

right? It's like, it's just a few of you trying to, Figure it out. But

it's, it's a fun world though, Harry. It really is. Thinking about, uh, the

challenges with growing a startup and building a team, how did you go about

thinking what the component or the, the

proportion of skill sets you would need to build

that team? Like, how many, you know, obviously scientists and,

and data science and, and marketing, and, you know, you've got all the departments and

you have to strike that fine balance in order to find, you know, which is

the right team that I can trust and that can get us to where we

need to and to execute on what I imagine

Bayer's expecting? How do you think about that as you're building a team?

I'm always fascinated about that from a startup perspective. Yeah.

And I think, you know, one of the things you got to be really clear

about is what are the things that have to happen in the next, you

know, especially in the next 6 months, 12 months, 2 years, et cetera. What

do you, you know, when it comes to the time of, of, uh, you know,

really looking at where is the company What is it you have to have established?

And for me, that meant we had to get our R&D organization set up. You

know, we are thinking about commercial roles and all that. We're probably adding

a few, but, you know, the bulk of our team is going to be, you

know, the biologists, the breeders, but then of course, because it's vertical, the

engineers. And then I'm glad you said data science. I think one of the biggest,

coolest things that's happened in agriculture over the last 10 years

or so is this confluence of the digital world and the

biology world. I call it Silicon Valley meets Salinas Valley. I mean, it's

like, it's really awesome because it really is taking

advantage of the amazing progress that's been happening, you know, in a

digital world and then applying it to how do you grow a crop. And I

think, so we're gonna have a heavy dose of that. So our, you know, our

team is really putting together with folks that have those kind of backgrounds, you

know, the biology, the produce background, but our VP of

product, Nikki, she's terrific. Nikki Seibel, she came in from

that whole Silicon Valley world, you know, through

eBay and Deliv and those kinds of things. And she

heads up product for us and she's been terrific because she understands that

whole digital platform, that whole, you know, how do we think about the software

engineering piece and all that. So that gives us a huge leg up. And then

we're bringing in other folks who came in from more traditional

produce backgrounds, which is important too. But

it's fun to put together the team and I think we got some really

Really great leaders coming in, and then we'll build the teams as we

move forward once we have the leadership team in place. What's interesting about that is

this mix that you have mentioned and touched upon about the need

for strong background in data science.

I've worked in business intelligence implementation, so I understand

there's a lot of moving parts. I've had a couple of great conversations with

David Farkar of Intelligent Growth Solutions, IGS. So, you know,

they understand the challenges. I just had a conversation yesterday with Eddie Badrina. He's

the new CEO at Eden Green, and he comes from a marketing background, and he

talks about this idea of understanding product-market fit, which, you know, if you're coming

from, you know, the ag world, you know, you're focused on,

you know, delivering that from an agricultural perspective, but

then understanding there are some challenges if you want to succeed that

you have to understand the digital world as well. That's right. And there's so many

moving so many moving parts and, and so many things to measure too, which I

think was fascinating as well for me understanding. I had a chat

with, uh, for season 2 with Tobias Pegg from Square Roots. Sure. And

again, talking about, he comes from the software world as well. So

there's so many things to measure, and I think that's what a lot of people

who are getting into vertical farming may not realize is there's a lot of variables

to control, but on the flip side, also a lot of variables to

measure. And to the extent that you can do that and have success with that,

means, you know, controls your ability to incrementally improve. No, that's

exactly right. And I think what's cool about, and one of the reasons why, you

know, we've had some really great conversations with so many players

that are actually operating the vertical farm production facilities,

is the missing ingredient's been genetics. It's really been the

biology side of things. And I think the fact that they've done an amazing

job of building these production facilities and are

able to control the environmental parameters so exquisitely,

Right? And having the kinds of systems in place and the robotics

automation, the environmental control systems in place.

They've also, I think, have some great technology, and this is bridging between

the ag piece and that, to measure what's happening at the plant level, the

sensors, the probes. So you have the ability to control the

environment, you have the ability to measure then how the plant responds to

that. We're going to be able to come in now at the earlier stage and

say, What are the genetic elements that allow that plant to

respond most effectively to that environment that you're controlling? So when I think

about those 3 digital pieces, controlling the environment, I think they're in great shape.

They really know how to do that quite well. Understanding what's happening at the plant

level, good progress, but I think more to come and more coming in the next—

but now understanding at the genetic level and using digital means,

we talk a lot about predictive breeding where you're not just testing and trialing things,

you're actually understanding well enough about the genes within that plant

to be able to make predictions on here are the crosses you need to make,

here's the kind of genetic breeding strategies you need to do

that. And I think you put those 3 kind of digital packages together, it's going

to be a really cool future for vertical farming. How

do you, for folks that are new to the space and seeing it from afar,

you know, they see only because of the head start, you see a

lot in the news about what Plenty is doing, what AeroFarms is

doing, and I'm wondering, when you think about explaining

to folks how Unfold wants to differentiate itself, you did

mention the focus on genetics, and I don't know that as many companies

are doing that, but when you think about the markets you want to play in,

where specifically in vertical farming, in indoor agtech,

you want to be seen as a leader, how do you explain that to folks

who are trying to understand this a little bit better? Yeah, and I think that's,

that's really a key differentiator because for most, you know, a lot of the companies,

you know, great companies who have established and are doing a great job already, you

know, producing crop, we want to be the, the seed provider of

choice. Because right now, you know, what they're doing is they're going out looking at

seed companies and buying it from, uh, from Bayer and other, you know,

very reputable seed companies. I think what's going to be different is

now we're going to be developing varieties specifically

for vertical farms. You know, a lot of the materials that are being grown were

developed for other purposes, and then you basically test it and see, does it work?

Versus we're going to have our own R&D vertical farm facility where we're

actually going to be developing the genetics specifically for vertical

farms. So I think that's the big difference. You know, we're not, we're not going

to be the, the produce, uh, you're not going to be the producer of that

produce. We're going to be the raw ingredient, the seed that goes into all these

vertical farms. So all those companies you mentioned I want to sell seed to all

of them. So I want to be their preferred supplier. So, so we're at the,

we're at the front end of this thing, which is the way, you know, one

thing you got to recognize here is you look at other mark— other production

systems, whether it be open field or greenhouse or glasshouse, for all those

you have dedicated— if you're at Bayer, if you're at one of the big seed

companies, you have dedicated programs. You know, you're not just taking whatever and seeing where

it works. You have programs defined that are defined by

what are the needs for that specific market, and you hone the genetics for

that. What's been missing in vertical— and I've been giving talks at vertical farming conferences

the last couple years is where's your genetics coming

from? Where is that, you know, those seeds that have been specifically developed

for vertical, which is why I gotta tell you, the response has been great. We've

had conversations with so many of the companies, many of them you just mentioned about,

you know, how can we help? How can we provide a solution that'll

make your, your, you know, make your business more successful?

And that's what we're about, making them successful. How much of

what experience not only Bayer, but also

Temasek brings to

Unfold is important for you to lean on?

I know I read something that because of Temasek's role

being closely linked to what's happening in Singapore, are there

lessons in what's been done earlier that you can build upon there? Yeah,

and I think one of the things that's really great, let me talk about Temasek

first. I think one of the great things about Temasek is they're not just, I

mean, they're a very large investment firm with many, many assets that they're

investing in. Companies around the

world. But the other thing I think is really impressive about them is they're

true thought leaders. I mean, they really want to participate in markets

and with companies that they think will better the

human condition, if you will, globally. So they really look for those opportunities for investing

in those kinds of things that will make a difference. And that's cool. And I

think it's really cool when you go visit them in Singapore, it's real. I mean,

a lot of people have stuff like this on their website. When you go there,

that's what they talk about. And that's how they think about their investment portfolio.

And of course, they have incredible network in relation relationships,

um, and in Singapore and Asia, but really globally because they make their

investments globally. But I do really appreciate their, their thought leadership.

For Bayer, you know, the— it's a technology company, it's an ag company,

and one of the really attractive parts of the way the company, our company, is

structured is we have a license to the Bayer germplasm. And so we're not

going to have to figure out how do we get all these seeds. You know,

we have the ability to take advantage of the— and I know I'm

biased, I headed R&D there, of course, but, you know, arguably they have one of

the best seed collections in the world. We're going to be able to take advantage

of that and then use that genetics to really develop the

varieties for vertical farming. But that license is huge because that

really is the enabler. And for any startup to be able to have

that kind of technology base to build upon

is just terrific. So for me, that's what got me excited. I mean, obviously

they would greatly appreciate the funding from Bayer and Tomasic, but

the license and the ability to take advantage of that Bayer germplasm

is huge because now we have a huge leg up and we'll have the exclusive

rights to that for vertical farming. Bayer is going to continue, you know, in for

open field greenhouse and glasshouse. We're going to be the engine for

the vertical farming sector. One of the things I

thought was interesting was Tomasic mentioning their 30 by 30

policy goals is to have 30% of the cities nutritional needs

sourced domestically by 2030, which would be up, I think

it's 10% from where they are today. So are those—

do you set— think about goals like that as you think about where you want

to be, you know, in 5 years, 10 years from now? Well, yeah, and I

think that's why when you look at countries like Singapore, it's very

aspirational. I think so. I think it's less than 10% of the food they consume

is actually grown domestically right now, right? And they're produced domestically. So

basically tripling it in 10 years. But what they have going

for them is it's a very highly

high-tech kind of country as far as

the knowledge base. They have capital. And I think

they look at vertical as one of the tickets to actually

being able to grow their own food, right? Because they don't have a lot of

arable land. And so how are you going to do it? Yeah. There are other

countries too in that same situation. If you look at where some of

the largest vertical farms are being manufactured, the Middle East,

right? Same kind of situation. High capital reserves, a lot of technology, very

savvy from electronics and all that. But they don't have— well, they have land,

but it's all desert and it's very expensive to grow. So vertical, again, fits in

very well there. So when I think about kind of the market sectors, there's

no question those countries who are looking to improving

their self-sufficiency from a food perspective, And Singapore is a classic example. And that

30 by 30 is a really cool thing for the country to aspire

to. But that's definitely one sector is those countries that are going to commit to

vertical in a big way, because they see that as one way to,

you know, to increase their domestic food production. And, you know, with all the

geopolitical challenges around the world, and of course, COVID really

put a spotlight on this is, you know, you got to think about your supply

chain, see where food's coming from, etc. Yeah. So the more the countries can do,

what are the technologies that fit best? And countries like Singapore and the Middle

East see vertical farming as a definitely critical element

to driving their own domestic production. A bit of education for

the listener, the term germplasm, you want to define that

and educate people a little bit on this? Just think of it, yeah,

I'm sorry, just think about the seeds, right? The seeds, sorry, germplasm. Germplasm

basically is a general term for, it's basically the genetics, within the seed. So

when you go and if you're a backyard gardener, you pick out and there's certain

varieties you like. Oh, I like that one. Did you know it worked well for

you before? That collection of all those seeds is a germplasm.

Sorry, some jargon there, but that's what it is. No, it's

okay. No, sometimes it's helpful. And especially in this industry, there's a

lot of terms that most people in the industry will be familiar with. But I

think especially since you're focused on seeds, I think that's the key. I think some

people forget. And I remember some of my earlier conversations, I was thinking, okay,

you're using seeds that were developed for outdoor farming,

but now you're— there's a bunch of different challenges that you have. And, and

how do you create and, and have crops that are conducive

to, to being grown indoors, which I thought was fascinating. Yeah, and I will say

this here, one of the huge advantages we're going to have, frankly, from a breeding

perspective, is a lot of the time that you spend and a

lot of the resources to, to have that seed that works well in

an open field, for example, is to build in resistances to

diseases or to pests, or to build in resistances to

abiotic stresses, you know, temperature ranges, you know, very

different weather conditions from climate, you know, from, from rain or

precipitation, et cetera. So you have to have seed that

withstands all of this variability from an environmental perspective.

There's a classic equation in breeding. Basically G by E, you know, it's the

genotype by the environment. Well, you're controlling that environment. So now

you can really, really focus on the genetics and you can focus

on— you don't have to worry about a lot of things that you normally have

to worry about when you think about breeding that seed. And that's really cool because

now you can really think about what's most important at the consumer level. How do

you get that great taste, that fresh? How do you get, you know, the kind

of sensory experience that consumers want? And then also you could focus

on the kind of agronomic or the kind of growing

parameters that are important for vertical farms, you know, how the plant responds to light,

you know, the architecture of the plant so it's amenable to vertical

farm uniformity, so the crop all matures at the same point, because

many vertical farms use robotic harvesting, right? So you can really hone

in on here are the kinds of characteristics both at the grower level

and at the consumer level, and there's a whole bunch of stuff you don't have

to worry about, which from a breeding standpoint is great.

Because the environment's being controlled for you. And that's really one of the advantages because

the environment is being controlled. You really do have a very consistent quality

standard every day of the year. And that to me is tremendous.

How do you think about the types? Obviously there's

hundreds, thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of varieties that you could

go after and decide where you want to focus your time and interest. But given

the environment you're working in, how do you think about what

crops you do want to focus on for this first round? You know, is it,

you know, because obviously everything's leafy greens is everything when we're getting

started and people moving into strawberries and other crops. But how do you and the

team think about where you want to focus the,

the, the bulk of that research time in these early months? Yep. So

we've got 5 crops that we've chosen, and we're starting with 2 leafy, uh,

lettuce and spinach, which are obvious ones. Um, you know, because as you say, that

really is where the vast majority of the market is right now. You know, it's,

it's, it's the lettuce, the spinaches, it's microgreens, it's, you know, some, some

herbs and things. I'm really convinced that in order for vertical to

really grow to its true potential, it has to make the leap to fruiting crops.

Yeah. It's a really cool industry. It's seen growth and all this, but to really

grow to the expectations that a lot of people have,

that's where our next 3 crops that we're gonna have are tomato, pepper, and cucumber.

And because there's a reason why glasshouse growers, high-tech glasshouse especially,

focus on tomato, pepper, cucumber. They're highly differentiable. There's consumer

traits. Sensory is king when they get to those crops. And

so vertical, I am convinced vertical has to make that

leap. And we are really hopeful that we'll be the provider of the seed that

allows them to do that, because I think they're high-value crops.

And they're also ones that are incredibly valuable from a

consumer perspective, but also the kinds of characteristics

consumers look for. in those crops are amenable to having that

very hyper-local kind of production, fresh product, because people love— it's

nothing better than a great tomato popping in your mouth. Wow, that tastes great. Yeah.

When you produce it locally— Cucumber salad. Yeah, cucumber salad, right? You know, all these

kind of, you know, those are the, those are the kinds of things that are

in it. You know, you can't, you can't survive on leafies alone. You got to

have the, you know, the whole, whole spectrum of crops. So tomato, pepper, cucumber would

be the next 3 for us. But you're right, berries is another one that's an

obvious one because flavor again is so And people love when it—

when they taste right, oh man, they taste great, right? And then the others is

like, ah, that's not quite

there. I think what a lot of people— and what I've noticed is a common

trend— is I think it's education. Because people are—

they're used to going to the supermarket and not understanding

how much that lettuce has had to travel to get to their plate and how

much flavor is lost along the process. And I think having the

closer, you know, times and connection to

when it's picked and to the time it actually appears on your plate

makes a huge difference in flavor. I may be speaking for you already, but

I think as you think about working at the gene level,

flavor is probably a very, very key component, which

you already have because of accessibility to the crop. But I think that's something that's

important as well. No, absolutely. And you've hit a really key thing because anytime you

you can shave days off of how long it takes to get to the store

and then to the consumer, that's huge. And so, I think

because you're automatically getting something that's fresher and it tastes better.

And I will say, of course, living in California, the

growers do an amazing job. I mean, considering how much of the produce is produced

in California that ends up in New York, in New England, and around the way,

because that's the only place where you can have that kind of

level of production. And that's going to continue. But the more we can start to

build these local solutions in, with vertical being part of that, it's

just going to provide a different flavor experience because you're taking thousands of

miles and days off of the time it takes. And that goes

all the way back to, well, now when do you have to harvest it? You

know, when do you, how long do you have to ship? How do you have

to ship? Yeah. There's a lot of considerations that are taken

out of the equation. And I think that's one of the

advantages of vertical is produce it where people live. And then, you know,

you're gonna have a better, better sensory experience, a better flavor

profile. I know it's hard to think about things that we didn't see

coming, and COVID definitely falls into that category. But how do you think

about any challenges that might be coming up

for you that could be unforeseen? And how do you as a

leader prepare for things like that, of that nature? Yeah, that's always the—

that's always the trick, is that you map out and everybody has their kind

of those strategy sessions going out 1, 2, 3, 5

years. But I always find usually after a year, especially when you got

3 or 4 years, it's like, okay, let's rethink it. Because

you just never know. But I think, and I think it goes both

ways though. I mean, some of it are, there's roadblocks that come up, but others

is there's enablers. I mean, you know, let's look at vertical farming.

Mm-hmm. Somebody put out a great graph that has the price of LED lights lights,

and then the, the number of vertical farms. And it's like, yeah, yep,

there's the curve, right? And so there's, there's technological advances

that you may not foresee. And I think that's one of the things you try

to do as a scientist is really put yourself in that, because your,

your breeding timelines can be 3, 4, 5 years. So you have to be

projecting out not what the market is now, but what the market's going to be.

But now that's the trick, right, is what's the— But I do think I

encourage though, at my leadership, always let's think both directions. What are the things that

can be really a derailer, but then what might happen from

an enabling standpoint that just makes our life a heck of a lot

easier? I always keep in mind that Mike Tyson quote that

everyone's got a plan until they get punched in the face. He's got

good experience with that. So that's

another good quote. Yeah.

What's a hard question you've had to ask yourself recently? I think one

of it is, and it's getting better now that we're adding people on the team,

but I gotta say the first month, 6 weeks, 8 weeks, when

literally it was me and one, Nikki, we brought in

early, we were doing everything. I mean, literally everything. And

it was funny because we actually talked about, because a number of companies do a

number of months in a stealth mode to kind of put together things before you

really, and we had a very short

stealth period. But I do see why companies do that now because it's like you're

deluged. I mean, it's like crazy how many people want to talk to you. And

so, and you want to do it because you want to be out there, but

then you're also trying to build a company, right? And so when I think about

the— is this nuts? You know, we're, we're doing all this and we're having a

million conversations every day too, but it's an adrenaline rush. I mean, it is

fun. You wouldn't do it. But I do think it's, it's getting a little easier

now that we're adding more people. We're getting more leadership team. together to share that

load. But I gotta tell you, the first, you know, we were, we were doing

so much media and so much customer stuff because everybody, there was, they were juiced

about having— there's a genetics company now in vertical. Yeah. So all the companies,

oh, we were talking to all of them and they were excited and we're excited.

It's like, it's only the two of us. Give us, give us a few weeks

here before we can actually give you something that actually has value. But, uh,

yeah, that was the, the, oh my gosh, what am I doing? You know, but

it's definitely getting better. What's something you've changed

your mind about recently? I mean, I've changed my mind about— I think, um,

something I've really tried to do is don't be

judgmental. I think, you know, and I think for me,

and maybe part of it is just the current political situation

where everything is just so, you know, just so divided in

two. And I just try to— I challenge myself to

not react quickly to you know, oh, they're so, you

know what, you know, versus, all right, let's really have a conversation.

And so, for me, that's the only thing that's going to change my mind is

give myself the permission and hopefully, you'll get

people invited in to, you know, and have a real conversation because,

oh my gosh, it's so lacking these days. I mean, where everything is just, you

know, so black and white and right and wrong and, you know,

versus— Yeah. And it's really sad because we're better than that, you

know? And so, that's something I'm trying to change

my course is don't react, think about it and think about

what if you had the conversation with the person, maybe it's not what you think

it is, right? And so, hope for

2021. Yeah.

It's this idea of disagreeing without being disagreeable. Yeah. You

know, I agree. That's what I'm trying to challenge myself to be a better person

that way. And I do think COVID, we've all had lots of time to reflect,

right, which is actually a good part of it, you know. But, you know, let's,

yeah, let's reflect on how, how we conduct ourselves. And I think we find that

there's, at the end of the day, there's more that, that

binds us together, that we have in common, than that divides us. It's easy

to get into one of these arguments online, faceless. You don't know who you're

just going to tweet back and forth at somebody or send an email. But if

you put the 2 people in the room, it's— you'll find that, like, you know,

my initial thought would be like, how's your family doing? Like, how are you doing?

Like, you know, we're all— at the end of the day, we're all human beings

trying to make the most of our time here on this planet. So I think,

uh, to your point, just the more we can do more of that, the better.

No, I agree, Harry. And even, you know, in agriculture, because of course coming through,

uh, through Monsanto, right, where there were, there were venues that were like,

oh my, it's so heated. But then once you, if you have the opportunity to

really talk and you realize, well, actually, you know, they're thinking about

sustainability, they're thinking about, you know, how do we grow these better ways?

Let's talk about how How can we build on that, right? There is a core

value that we actually both share, even though we may not recognize it from

where we might, you know, what organization they're in or what organization I'm in. But

then you start talking, you realize, actually, you know, we actually believe in a lot

of the same things. We're just thinking there's a different way to get there, right?

And so, but if you don't have the conversation, you'll never get to that point.

That's true. So as we wrap up, John, as you think about

what's coming up, what has you excited about vertical farming?

And it could be related to what you're working on at Unfold or just in

general about the industry? Oh, I think, you know, any time we can

introduce new ways to really provide what

consumers are looking for, in the case of having, you know,

hyper-local, fresh, good-tasting, and with some

good sustainability attributes, that's a really cool thing for

agriculture. And I think, and, you know, back to the point we were just talking

about, One of the things I want to really hope the industry does is don't

disparage other ways of producing food because everybody's working their butts off trying

to, you know, trying to do things right. You don't want— my mom always said,

don't raise yourself by pushing other people down. And I always took that to heart,

right? You know, just, you can talk about your benefits without being

disparaging to the way other systems are. Yeah. But let's build it together

because especially in food and agriculture, there's fewer and fewer of us every year

in it trying to produce for more and more people. on the planet. So

let's think about it as we're all playing a part in this thing. And, uh,

but for me, what's exciting is I think vertical is, you know, I think about

that kind of spectrum of technologies from open field to net house to greenhouse

to glasshouse. This is just the next evolution of it where now

you're— a glasshouse grower does a lot to control the environment, but, you know, vertical

really does pretty much control all the environmental attributes. Mm-hmm. And that's really cool

to be able to provide, you know, a production system that really has high quality

But also has some great sustainability attributes as well. And that's a

fun industry to be in. It's cool when my daughter tells me I'm cool. I

think now you're cool. Your daughter says you're cool. That's right. Hey, I made it

now, man. That's right. But for a

dad, what's better than that, right? Your 27-year-old daughter says you're cool. It's

like, yeah. Hashtag vertical farming. Yeah, exactly, exactly.

What's interesting is also the— also these opportunities, because people are talking about like these

loss of jobs now, but there's now these new industries and these

new pathways that are being created for people so that they can transition

into these newer— this new generation of jobs. And I think

that holds a lot of promise. I'm really glad you raised it here because I

think this other cool part I'm really excited about— and you think a lot about

legacy as you get up in your career, and I'm a decade

beyond you— but I think the way that

some of the cool things with the digital footprint now in agriculture

and things like the robotics and the automation, all the digital

platforms, vertical farming, we're bringing in a whole

new generation of people who are now interested in producing food

that, you know, didn't come like me, came through, you know, ag kind of background.

They're all coming from all different backgrounds, but they're

sharing that passion for let's figure out a better way to grow food. And that's

really cool to see the different disciplines, different kind of backgrounds people are

having now that are plugging into food production, which is awesome.

That's very good. Well, John, I want to thank you for taking the time

to jump on this, this, this chat. It's really interesting to

hear your backstory, and I think it's going to be inspirational for people because, you

know, there's many different paths. And I think on this podcast, what's been the common

thread is that there's no one road that leads to a job in

vertical farming. Yeah, that's true. Which is really great. And I think when people hear

your story as well, so I want to appreciate you for telling the

story. And I think people will be closely watching what's happening with Unfold because what

you're doing coming in essentially at the DNA level, you know, with

seeds, I think is going to be exciting to watch. So

best of luck with what you're doing. Hey, thank you so much. I really enjoyed

the conversation, Harry. Fantastic. And it's unfold.ag

is the website. Any other links that would be helpful for listeners who want to

learn more? Just follow us. We're on Instagram as well. And so keep, uh,

check us out on LinkedIn as well. So yeah. And we'll make sure all those

links are in the show notes as well. I want to appreciate it, uh, uh,

you taking the time again. Thanks, John. Great, thank you. So thanks

again to John for sharing that inspiring story. It's always fascinating to hear how some

of these bigger companies and some of these, uh, new

mergers are creating technologies and solutions

for the vertical farming industry, and it seems to be changing Constantly every week,

and I'm grateful for the opportunity to get a sneak peek inside. Special thanks to

our episode sponsor, Ceres Greenhouse Solutions. Ceres is

creating sustainable growing environments by combining smart design, innovative

technology, and dynamic partnerships. Learn more at

ceresgs.com. That's

C-E-R-E-S-G-S dot com. If you

enjoyed this episode or past episodes, I'd love it if you leave a rating and

a review review at ratethispodcast.com/vfp.

We'll be sure to read them out on future episodes. Until we meet again

next week, here's to your health. Thanks for listening. To

read the full show notes for this episode, which includes any links

mentioned in the episode, as well as a full show transcription, visit

verticalfarmingpodcast.com. There, you can sign

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