On the latest episode, I'm joined by legendary systems scientist, futurist and cultural historian Dr. Riane Eisler. Riane is the recipient of many honors, such as the Distinguished Peace Leadership Award earlier given to the Dalai Lama, and is the author of many books, including The Chalice and the Blade, now in its 57th US printing and 27 foreign editions, The Real Wealth of Nations, hailed by Nobel Peace Laureate Desmond Tutu as "a template for the better world we have been so urgently seeking," and Nurturing Our Humanity, Oxford University Press, 2019, co-authored with Douglas P. Fry.
Riane’s innovative whole-systems research offers new perspectives and practical tools for constructing a less violent, more egalitarian, gender-balanced, and sustainable future. She is the President of the Center for Partnership Systems, which provides practical applications of her work, and Editor in Chief of the online Interdisciplinary Journal of Partnership Studies published at the University of Minnesota.
On this episode, we discuss:
Notes related to this episode:
And here are a few more details about this show and my work:
Hello, and welcome to Home to Her,
the podcast that's dedicated to
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:reclaiming the lost and stolen
wisdom of the sacred feminine.
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:I'm your host, Liz Kelley, and on
each episode, we explore her stories
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:and myths, her spiritual principles,
and most importantly, what this
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:wisdom has to offer us right now.
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:Thanks for being here.
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:Let's get started.
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:Okay.
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:Okay.
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:Okay.
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:Okay.
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:Liz Childs Kelly: Hey everybody,
this is Liz joining you as usual from
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:Central Virginia and the unceded lands
of the Monacan Nation, and I am so
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:glad that you are here with me today.
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:And as always, if you would like to know
whose native lands you are residing on, be
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:sure to check out the map at native land.
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:ca.
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:It's a map of the entire world,
super helpful, and I always put that
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:in the show notes, so if you don't
remember, you can check it out there.
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:And If you are interested in learning
more about the sacred feminine, there's
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:so many ways that you can do that.
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:You could certainly check out
past podcast episodes here.
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:We've got almost a hundred at this point
that you can go through, but there's some
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:other ways that you can learn from me
specifically to go on over to Home to Her.
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:You'll find articles there and you'll
also find the past podcast episodes.
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:And then you can find information
about my book, Home to Her,
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:Walking the Transformative Path
of the Sacred Feminine, which is
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:published by WomanCraft Publishing.
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:That's available wherever you buy
your books and also on Audible now.
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:And it would be great if you wanted
to keep up with episodes and whatnot
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:to follow me on social media.
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:You can find me at Home to
Her on Instagram and Facebook.
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:And I love your feedback.
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:Social is a really good
way to reach out to me.
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:So if you have questions or comments on
the most recent episodes, suggestions,
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:I always love to hear from you.
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:And so with that, I want to
tell you about my guest today.
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:Her work has been hugely influential to
me, and I'm guessing that if you have
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:been on the Sacred Feminine path for a
while, it may have been for you as well.
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:She's been on my wish list of podcast
guests since the very beginning,
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:and I also think if you have delved
into the historical record of the
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:Sacred Feminine at all, I think the
odds are very high for having me.
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:That you've heard of her
or read some of her work.
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:So I am so honored that she's with me
today, and I'm just thrilled to be able
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:to share this conversation with you.
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:Dr.
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:Riane Eisler is the recipient of many
honors, such as the Distinguished
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:Peace Leadership Award earlier given
to the Dalai Lama, and internationally
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:known for her groundbreaking
contributions as a systems scientist,
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:futurist, and cultural historian.
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:She is author of many books, including The
Chalice and the Blade, now in its 57th U.
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:S.
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:printing and 27 foreign editions,
The Real Wealth of Nations,
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:hailed by Nobel Peace Laureates.
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:Desmond Tutu as a template for
the better world we have been so
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:urgently seeking, and Nurturing
Our Humanity from Oxford University
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:Press, co authored with Douglas P.
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:Fry.
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:Riane's innovative whole systems
research offers new perspectives and
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:practical tools for constructing a
less violent, more egalitarian, gender
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:balanced, and sustainable future.
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:Eisler is president of the Center for
Partnership Systems, which provides
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:practical applications of her work,
and she's editor in chief of the
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:online Interdisciplinary Journal
of Partnership Studies published
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:at the University of Minnesota.
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:She keynotes conferences worldwide,
has taught at many universities,
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:has written hundreds of articles
and contributions to both scholarly
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:and popular books, pioneered the
application of human rights standards
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:to women and children, has addressed
the UN General Assembly, and consults
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:to businesses and governments on the
partnership model introduced by her work.
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:And she is joining us today from her home
on the Monterey Peninsula in California.
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:Riane thank you so much for being here.
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:It's such an honor to be with you.
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:Riane Eisler: Well, it's a great pleasure
for me to be on your show and with you.
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:Liz Childs Kelly: Thank you.
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:And I was just thinking as I was
reading out all of these impressive
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:accomplishments, I've been thinking
about this a lot lately, how
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:how we have choice in, in how we
choose to show up in the world.
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:And That I think so many people that have
been on this show and, and others that
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:I've encountered that are doing work that
touches what I do, it feels like a very
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:sacred mission and that also we don't
ever have to say yes to those callings.
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:We can choose to do something
that's perhaps less challenging.
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:And so I just want to say on behalf
of me and my listeners and all of us
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:around the world, so much for saying
yes to such a, an incredible life path.
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:I think we are really,
really benefiting from it.
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:Riane Eisler: That's
more of a calling for me.
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:Liz Childs Kelly: I absolutely understand.
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:Yeah.
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:Well, I love to start with guests on
hearing about spiritual backgrounds,
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:your spiritual background growing up.
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:And part of the reason why I like
to start there is I'm just curious.
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:I enjoy hearing these things, but
also I think it's really interesting
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:to, to tie that thread through.
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:the beginnings and how that has showed up
in your life and in your work including
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:perhaps the pieces that you wanted to
keep and, and even the ones that perhaps
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:pointed you in different directions.
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:So if that's all right with you,
I would love to start there.
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:Riane Eisler: I certainly can start
because the passion that I have
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:for this work is really deeply
rooted in my childhood experiences.
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:I was a child refugee with
my parents from the Nazis.
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:And from one day to the next,
My whole world was changed from
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:being this cute little girl that
people would pat on the head.
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:I, my parents and I, we became
hunted with license to kill.
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:And so that's where my passion
is rooted and really where my
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:spiritual journey is rooted too.
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:Because I, we were able, my parents were
able to get an entry permit to Cuba, one
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:of only two places that would take Jewish
refugees fleeing Nazis at that time.
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:And so I grew up in the
industrial slums of Havana.
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:And every night I would
join my father in praying.
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:The, which is the Jewish prayer.
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:And at the end of it, I would silently
pray that everyone by name now, 'cause
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:I knew the names of all of those who
were left behind would be all right.
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:And that space.
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:Collapsed when I saw the newsreels
years later of the survivors of
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:the Nazi concentration camps.
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:And I found out that most of my
extended family, grandparents,
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:aunts, uncles, cousins were killed.
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:by the Nazis.
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:And so my spiritual journey was a rather
jagged one because I thought that the
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:god that I had prayed to was either
didn't exist or was mad or crazy or evil.
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:And it was really only years
later when I came back to the
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:questions of my childhood.
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:Which were obviously questions, well,
questions that I think many of us
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:have asked at some point in our lives.
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:Does it have to be with,
you know, this way?
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:As we're told, you know, by stories
like Original Sin, right, we're evil,
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:or Selfish Genes, which really, they
fight each other, because one is secular
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:and one is religious, but it's the
same message, we're bad, we have to be
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:rigidly controlled from the top, right?
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:Starting with God fearing.
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:And so years later, I came back to these
questions of, as I said, does it have to
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:be this way when we humans have so, such
a capacity for caring for sensitivity?
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:Why has there been so much
cruelty, so much violence?
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:And I set out to answer these questions.
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:And lo and behold, I found the Divine
Feminine, and I found as detailed in my
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:book, The Chalice and the Blade which
as you said is really a textbook in,
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:and it is a textbook, by the way, in
many places, but it's very accessible,
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:it tells a story, it tells our story,
and it shows that there was a time
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:when, yes, when the divine was Feminine.
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:That does not mean, however, that the
opposite of patriarchy is matriarchy.
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:It's really the other side of the coin.
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:The opposite of patriarchy is what I
call partnership, rather than domination.
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:Liz Childs Kelly: Yeah,
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:and it's funny, I My own, you know,
journey to the, to the Divine Feminine was
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:very, it was very much an embodied kind of
intuitive thing that, that landed for me.
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:And I, I was raised a conservative
Christian in a Southern Baptist household.
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:So just no exposure to anything
feminine in the face of God whatsoever.
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:And But it was an intuitive felt sense
after many kind of experiences that
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:I, you know, felt kind of mystical and
unexplained where I'm like, there must
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:be a divine feminine and now I just
want to, you know, hug that version
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:of me and just, you know, because she,
there's so much evidence, you know, as,
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:as amassed by you and Maria Gambutis
and just so many people who've been
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:doing this work for decades, but yeah.
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:You know, even this was even 10, 11
years ago, it wasn't in the forefront
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:of my consciousness and nothing, even my
advanced degrees, you know, I had to had
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:put it into, into my consciousness yet.
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:So I want to go back to that and talk
about that a little bit about how, how do
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:we continue to get this in front of women.
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:But And everyone, but I'd love to hear
you tell me about, did you, was it, did
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:you find the divine feminine through your
research or was there some moment before
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:that where it kind of seeped into your
consciousness in the way that I described
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:for me and what was that like for you?
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:Riane Eisler: You know, it's really very
interesting because as you know, I started
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:this work by using a new methodology.
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:Which is an inclusive methodology, the
study of relational dynamics, and it
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:really, relational is the key word.
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:What kinds of relations does a
particular social system support?
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:Which is a question that we should
be asking and we need to be asking.
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:You know, is it this top down,
oppressive relationship, which in
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:its most rigid forms is it a life and
death issue, really or is it mutuality,
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:mutual respect, mutual accountability?
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:Transparency is a word that has
crept into our language, hasn't it?
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:Which has absolutely no no place
in the domination system, right?
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:Of course it's not
going to be transparent.
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:So, but my journey you know, I sometimes
talk about my life being like the pieces
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:of a jigsaw puzzle, because in a school
in Cuba, and my parents, my mother in
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:law, you know, sold her jewelry, which
she could smuggle out, to send me to a
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:good school, a bilingual Methodist school.
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:And it was a very interesting time because
my parents, you know, I got very tired of
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:being, you know, the Methodists, as you
probably know, are very proselytizing.
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:And so every day we had to go
to chapel, and every day Mr.
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:Munoz, who was the head of the school,
would ask, Do you believe in Jesus Christ?
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:And I got very, very tired of
being the only kid who didn't
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:raise their hand, you know.
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:And so I raised my hand.
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:You know, I mean, I was very young.
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:And my parents found out, and they
hired a rabbi to teach me that
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:I'm Jewish, as if I didn't know,
because we had to escape, you know.
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:But but the questions that I would ask,
We're not the usual questions, like in
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:the Bible, it says that henceforth woman
is to be subservient to man, right?
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:And I wanted to know, well, what
was it like before the henceforth?
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:And nobody wanted to talk about that.
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:And I also wanted to know why did Eve,
you know, woman ask advice from a snake?
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:I mean, we don't usually do that.
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:I don't know.
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:And nobody wanted to talk about that.
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:And fast forward well, also in that
school, by the way, there was a
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:teacher who taught about prehistory.
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:I had no idea that there was such a time.
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:And I was fascinated.
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:By the concept.
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:I mean, this is why I talk about my
life like the pieces of a jigsaw puzzle,
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:because later, I mean, years later,
when I undertook my research on our
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:past, present, and the possibilities
for our future to answer the questions
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:of my childhood, or try to answer them.
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:When I went back to prehistory, I
found out, for example, that there
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:was a time before the hence, you
know, before the henceforth, when
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:woman was not, as we are told in one
of the stories, because there are two
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:creation stories in the Bible, you know.
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:And, but the best known one is the one of
Eve and Adam in the fall, quote unquote,
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:from paradise due to the sin of, and
that's bizarre, of even thinking of,
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:of asking for wisdom, for knowledge on
our own, which of course is fundamental
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:to domination regimes, isn't it?
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:Anyway, I found out that the snake,
for example, was not only a symbol of
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:the regeneration of life and associated
with the veneration of a female
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:deity, a goddess but that snakes were
also symbols of oracular prophecy.
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:But think about the Oracle of Delphi,
already in historic times in Greece.
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:A female priestess, a pisoness she
was called, worked with snakes,
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:and if you look at the Minoan
statues of the so called goddess or
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:priestess, I think, figures, they
have snakes coiled around their arms,
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:and they're in an oracular trance.
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:So when I say that my journey was like the
pieces of a jigsaw puzzle coming together.
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:The coming together happened with
my calling to really do this work.
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:I mean, I, I just had to.
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:Liz Childs Kelly: Yes,
so many good things.
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:I, I'm looking, I wish I can, I can't
turn the camera over there for, for
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:viewers, but I have a replica of that
Minoan snake goddess and got to see her
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:when I was in Crete several years ago.
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:And one of the reasons I have this on
my arm and, you know, that's the, For
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:listeners, it's a, it's a tattoo that I
got recently of a snake on my my wrist.
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:Riane Eisler: Well, the snake
has a lot of meaning for you.
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:Liz Childs Kelly: Very much so.
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:Very much so.
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:And has carried that for some time for me.
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:Yeah.
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:Riane Eisler: I did an interview
recently with the Scientific American.
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:And the woman who
interviewed me is Indian.
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:And she She wanted to know whether
snakebites put you in an oracular
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:trance, and because she saw that a lot
of the Indian gurus used, you know,
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:snakes and went into this trance.
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:Liz Childs Kelly: So
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:Riane Eisler: it's a well known
ancient lore that if you survive that
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:bite you are in a regular trance and
you access some kind of knowledge.
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:That often, it's, it's, it's you know,
my, my late husband who I miss terribly
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:because we had 45 years of being together
David Loy he was a student of, of, of
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:forecasting, and he was also interested
in what is still called the paranormal.
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:Liz Childs Kelly: Yes.
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:Riane Eisler: Very interested.
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:In fact, when he was the project
head of the study of the effects of
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:television on adults at the UCLA School
of Medicine, which is when we first met.
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:He was very interested in that because
Selma Moss, who was in that school and
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:many of you know who she was because she
studied the paranormal she was fired.
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:And there was this forlorn little
group studying mental telepathy
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:that met in the basement.
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:Of the UCLA schools of medicine and
they asked David if he would be their
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:faculty sponsor and he said sure and
so I became it's very unreliable.
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:Sometimes we access it
and sometimes we don't.
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:Liz Childs Kelly: Yes,
and it's interesting.
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:I won't go into the whole story, but
I live in Charlottesville, Virginia,
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:that area now, and have been here
for about three years, but there's
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:a Department of Perceptual Studies
that's part of the University of
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:Virginia's School of Medicine, and
they're also studying similar things,
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:near death experiences, out of body
experiences, the paranormal and whatnot.
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:And I am always so fascinated by that
intersection of the science and the
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:kind of, you know, I don't know what to
call it, but we tend to put that more
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:in, like, the mystical realm, I guess.
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:I love when those things kind of come
together and we think in that way
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:to explore those things together.
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:Riane Eisler: Well, I think that this
is off subject, perhaps, but, you
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:know, we malign the Enlightenment.
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:But the enlightenment was a time when
one social movement after another after
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:that challenged traditions of domination.
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:You know, the challenge to
the so-called Divine right of
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:King Su, their whole subjects.
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:And then the feminist movement challenging
the so-called divinely ordained
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:right of men to the lower women and
children, and then the abolitionist
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:and civil rights, et cetera, movements.
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:Challenging the so called divinely
ordained right of a, quote, superior
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:race to rule over inferior ones all
the way to today, to the environmental
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:movement, challenging man's once
hallowed conquest and domination of
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:nature erodes challenging the same
thing, a tradition of domination.
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:Yeah.
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:And that became very evident
to me in doing my research.
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:Prehistory, that using the conventional
categories and, and yes, being
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:highly educated, which means not
going, you know, to, to universities,
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:fragments our consciousness, because
it's all very siloed, isn't it?
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:Liz Childs Kelly: Yes.
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:Riane Eisler: And very, it, it, it makes
it almost impossible to connect the dots.
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:And my work is connecting the dots.
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:And surely.
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:That's what neuroscience
shows today, for example.
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:That early, the early years in
our intimate relations, our family
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:and other intimate relations are
fundamental to our worldview.
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:Liz Childs Kelly: And
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:Riane Eisler: the conversation
today about trauma is very
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:much of a partnership trend.
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:Because we're realizing that
domination systems, as I have written
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:in my books, are trauma factors.
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:So it is.
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:Liz Childs Kelly: Yeah.
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:Riane Eisler: Well,
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:Liz Childs Kelly: and that
kind of is a nice tee up to a
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:question that I wanted to ask you.
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:So I think if I'm calculating right,
at least from my edition of the
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:Chalice and the Blade, it's been 37
years, I think, since that came out.
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:Yeah.
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:And 86.
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:Yes.
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:I think my copy was 87.
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:But I would love to know what you
think, you know, from, from that
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:point of publishing that work to now.
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:How do you think our
understanding of this.
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:existing paradigm of
dominator culture has shifted.
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:And you just named, you know, our, our
conversation around trauma is obviously
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:one of those, but maybe what are
some of the ways in which you've seen
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:things shift in, in that timeframe?
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:Riane Eisler: Well the talk about gender
is very much of the partnership trend.
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:I don't like the term toxic masculinity.
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:Because that's what men are taught,
but it is domination masculinity.
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:In that, well maybe if I were to tell
you the difference between what I call
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:partnership and domination systems.
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:Yeah.
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:That would be a good place to start.
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:Because I realized very early on in my
research to try to answer the questions,
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:you know, does it have to be this way?
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:Yeah.
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:I couldn't answer them using the
conventional social categories that we
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:have, like right left, religious secular,
eastern western, northern southern.
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:For one thing there have been
repressive, violent regimes in
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:every one of these categories.
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:So, none of them tells
us what we have to build.
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:You know, we can critique them, too.
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:You know, forever.
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:But if we have no idea of what kind of
configuration we have to put together we,
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:we, we can't lay the foundations for that.
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:So I started to draw from a much larger
database because the other thing about
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:our conventional categories, if you really
think about it, which we're taught not
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:to do They all either marginalize or
ignore nothing less than the majority
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:of humanity, women and children.
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:And that is fatal.
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:I mean, you can't talk about
systems studies if you do that.
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:And so I drew from a much
larger database, obviously.
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:And I also drew from prehistory.
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:So it's the whole of our history, the
whole of humanity, and also, of course, if
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:you, if you leave out women and children,
you leave out family, because they were
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:confined, you know, they had no access
to the, quote, men's world, it used to
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:be called, remember, the public sphere.
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:And so a lot of the feminists struggle.
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:Has been to gain access to that, to the
professions through higher education.
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:But at the same time we have been
indoctrinated, really, through
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:our, quote, higher education.
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:It isn't the people who are into
the God fearing, you know, the kind
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:of background that you came from.
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:But it's also progressives I remember.
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:Because I was a pioneer in getting, I
wrote the first article for the really
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:the Human Rights Quarterly, which was
the, you know, the publication of the
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:Human Rights Movement, on what later,
the same year, 86 on what later became
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:known as Women's Rights are Human Rights.
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:And we've always said, we've made this
distinction, it's okay to interfere.
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:in what states do, but it's not okay
to interfere in what families do.
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:And actually what happens
in families is fundamental.
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:And the good news are people like
you who free themselves of that
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:and take a different direction.
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:Because we humans and I'm, I've been very
non linear, but there's so much to cover.
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:Really neuroscience shows that
that kind of background tends,
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:tends is the word, to make people
accept domination and violence.
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:Punitive families,
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:Liz Childs Kelly: which
makes total sense to me.
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:Yeah.
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:And I, I want to, I want to,
I want to come back to that.
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:I want to talk about that more, but one
of the things that I was also thinking
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:about as I was preparing for this
conversation was you know, when I began
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:this, this, this particular journey,
you know, that I have been on with
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:learning more about the divine feminine.
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:And then of course, that is seeped
into every aspect of my life.
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:One thing that felt really frustrating
for me in being able to articulate it to
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:other people was this awareness that I
mean, you just named it so eloquently,
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:but that we don't participate in systems
that were created with the, with the
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:input of women or children at all.
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:Like we just were, were erased from them.
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:And so yet.
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:gaining success and higher education and
financial resources within those systems,
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:which is something that I was able to do.
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:It, and yet I still felt like I
didn't belong in those places,
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:which of course makes total sense
because they weren't designed for me.
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:But trying to articulate that to
people in a way that they could see
387
:was so frustrating because It's the
absolute undercurrent of everything.
388
:And.
389
:If you can't see it, you can't see it.
390
:And so, and I, I wonder, I just, I'd
love to hear your thoughts on that.
391
:And I, there was part of me that wants
to say, well, things are changing so
392
:rapidly and they are, and it's amazing.
393
:And I would say even in my own life over
the last 10 years, I am surrounded by
394
:people who do see it and understand it.
395
:And I talk to them every day, and I
feel like the numbers are growing.
396
:And yet I also talk to women who are
still very much And in that, in that
397
:same framework and model of I am
achieving, I'm doing all the things,
398
:and I cannot find my sense of self in
this place, and I turn it on myself.
399
:And so I just wonder, you know,
it's obvious to me in war torn
400
:cultures who's suffering the
most, you know, like we see it.
401
:It's the women and children.
402
:There is no question, but
there's a different kind of.
403
:Thing that's happening
here in the United States.
404
:And I think in other wealthier nations
where it's it's it's it's much harder
405
:to actually see a name in some ways.
406
:So I just I'm curious what that
you know how you understand that
407
:and how you respond to that.
408
:Riane Eisler: Well, what you are
talking about is my journey, my
409
:journey of discovery, which is
what my books are really about.
410
:Because, like in my second book, which
I wrote ten, which was published ten
411
:years after Chavez, A Sacred Pleasure.
412
:I go into, and it foreshadows
a lot of what I have written.
413
:I mean the subtitle is Sex, Myth,
and the Politics of the Body.
414
:And of course, you know, that's
one of the trends, isn't it?
415
:I mean, trauma, as we know,
is embedded in our bodies.
416
:It's not so simple to say, well, I no
longer believe, because It's it's there.
417
:You bring up my whole journey because
after that book I wrote on, I really
418
:wanted to see how can we change this,
you know, chalice does end with that with
419
:two scenarios, you know, breakthrough
of evolution or breakdown of evolution.
420
:And it's still as
relevant, if not more so.
421
:Frankly, even though there have been more
discoveries, like discovery that women
422
:hunted, for example, or that the hands in
the, in the IC caves were women's hands.
423
:I mean that, but you know, the guy
who, who published on that, he didn't
424
:publish that until he went emeritus.
425
:The Academy just doesn't accept this
yet, I mean, and it's not well known,
426
:isn't it, that the fingers of the
hands of women and men are different?
427
:He happened to know that.
428
:And lo and behold, you know, we
were always told, right, that
429
:these are handprints of the
artist, which were he, right?
430
:And it turns out that they're
women's most of the time.
431
:So, I mean, we're finding out so much,
but my work brings it all together.
432
:And to continue on my journey I
became more and more interested in
433
:changing and cultural transformation.
434
:What do we need to do?
435
:Because we've inherited a lot of this
I mean, you know, and I'm very worried,
436
:for example, about AI at this point,
because it's garbage in and garbage
437
:out, you know, it will be programmed
with all of this, quote, knowledge,
438
:which is A lot of it just isn't true,
and we have to participate in making
439
:new stories that more accurately
reflect our past, our present, and
440
:the possibilities for our future.
441
:Because the thing about it is not enough
to protest and to critique and to disrupt.
442
:You have to have a sense
of where you want to go.
443
:I promised you I would describe the
partnership and domination systems, as
444
:far as I have, my findings are that the
cultural transformation is not from left
445
:to right, or from religious or secular,
or eastern and western, because, you
446
:know, I mean, look at Nazi Germany,
it was a secular isn't a question of
447
:religious or secular, look at the Taliban.
448
:You know they're religious and
yet look at the Unitarians.
449
:I mean, you know those categories,
you can have the partnership and
450
:domination orientation because it's
always a matter of degree in both.
451
:Religious or secular, eastern or western,
northern or southern, so on and so on.
452
:But the configuration is
what, we don't want to go back
453
:to any good old days, okay?
454
:But what the study of prehistory
shows is a certain configuration.
455
:Take a place like Çatalhöyük,
for example, which I think you
456
:are very well familiar with.
457
:It's one of the largest early
farming sites ever excavated.
458
:Liz Childs Kelly: And modern
day Turkey, for listeners, yeah,
459
:who may not know, it's modern
460
:Riane Eisler: day Turkey.
461
:Turkey in Anatolia.
462
:And as Ian Hodder, who is one
of the excavators said in his
463
:interview, there's a movie being
made about my life and my work.
464
:And he was interviewed for it.
465
:And he said it was definitely a dynamic
society guided for a woman actors for
466
:a man and the between them for linking
rather than ranking that it's not
467
:only that you have in a partnership
system, the opposite of what you
468
:have in a nomination system Which,
in a domination system, you have top
469
:down control authoritarian family.
470
:Family is part of my research.
471
:Economics is part of my research.
472
:And, of course, society and
all the social institutions.
473
:But as you move to the partnership
system, which we see in so many
474
:people, like, Many of the ones that
you are in touch with, they've rejected
475
:that model of family, haven't they?
476
:That, which takes me to the second part
of the configuration, which is gender.
477
:I don't know if you've noticed, and
let's look at the MAGA movement,
478
:or the Taliban, or Nazi Germany.
479
:It, it doesn't really matter.
480
:They always have the subordination of the
female form to the male form of humanity.
481
:And those are the two
basic forms that we have.
482
:So what, you know, the, the,
the caveman cartoon, right?
483
:In one hand, he's got a club, a weapon.
484
:In the other one, he's yanking
a woman, he's hauling a woman
485
:by the hair, he's pulling her.
486
:So male dominance, violence, war, let's
just quote human nature, which is a lie.
487
:Because getting back to Tzotal
Huya, we had a thousand years
488
:of no destruction from warfare.
489
:Can you believe that?
490
:It's, it's proof that war is
not inherent in human nature.
491
:But how many people know
about Tsar Tomgul Yak?
492
:And how many people know, even
in some of the newer books, which
493
:bits and pieces, you know, are,
are coming out with this evidence?
494
:They don't talk about the fact that it
was not a male dominated society, as
495
:Hodder, Ian Hodder, the archaeologist,
wrote in an article in the Scientific
496
:American being born male or female
was not effective in determining
497
:one's opportunities and one's status.
498
:You know, we have to learn about our past.
499
:We have to learn the truth about our
past, and about the possibilities about
500
:what's really happening today, and also
about the possibilities for our future,
501
:because that's the struggle for our
world today, is between partnership
502
:and domination, and violence and abuse
is built into domination systems.
503
:Whether it's child and wife
violence, you know, beating,
504
:whatever, you know, killing,
quote, domestic violence and that.
505
:You see, we've learned as women and
men, because this is not a question of
506
:women against men or men against women.
507
:It's a question of social structure.
508
:And men don't have it so good.
509
:They have to give nothing
less than their lives.
510
:Because some guy on top, like a
Putin, wants more territory, right?
511
:Wants more real estate.
512
:I mean, but they do get to control
their families in that system.
513
:They get to call the shots, if you will.
514
:So, you really have to consider the whole
picture, and you have to consider story.
515
:and language.
516
:Liz Childs Kelly: Yes.
517
:And I was thinking about too, I know
that you have been working on this
518
:Peace Begins at Home campaign, which I
would love to hear you talk about, but
519
:even that language, domestic violence
versus family violence, which I know
520
:is the term that you would prefer.
521
:It really, it does.
522
:There's so many ways I think, and
we, in which we kind of minimize the.
523
:The, the violence and the
impact and normalize it.
524
:We could look at that in a lot of
different ways like a, a A woman
525
:was raped as opposed to a man raped
her, you know, like we switch it
526
:around, like, so it's, it's something
that happened to her as opposed to
527
:an action that was actually done.
528
:Or I, I just, I was talking to someone
who's very conscious yesterday and we
529
:were literally talking about this, the
language that we use and metaphors of
530
:violence, and then two minutes later, she
says, without even realizing it, I'm going
531
:to butcher the pronunciation of this.
532
:Butcher!
533
:Like, oh my god, it's everywhere!
534
:But I, I wonder if you could speak to
that, you know, that shift, that domestic
535
:violence, family violence, because
when I think about, when I was reading
536
:about your, your thoughts around this,
what I was thinking about is that all
537
:pervasiveness of dominator culture.
538
:And like, where do you even start
to, you, you pull, you've got to
539
:pull at so many different threads to
get at it because it's so insidious.
540
:Right.
541
:But that feels like a very big one.
542
:What's happening in the home?
543
:Riane Eisler: Well We
have to focus on that.
544
:And in my book on economics, because
that's what I now really very much focus
545
:on, the real wealth, the real wealth.
546
:You know, it's a play on Adam
Smith's The Wealth of Nations.
547
:You know, care has been devalued
as it's coded feminine, right?
548
:Yes.
549
:And so what I propose is
really in that book is the
550
:caring economics of partnerism.
551
:I mean, we, we, you know this from
having been in the corporate world.
552
:We don't want a piece of the existing pie.
553
:We want to bake a better economic pie.
554
:That's what it's about.
555
:Certainly.
556
:We have to go back to the
basic question of what do we
557
:value, and what do we measure?
558
:Because we measure what we value,
and we value what we measure.
559
:So all of this is interconnected,
and so is language, of course.
560
:And yes, there's a lot to do, but you
know, we have to remember something, which
561
:is that our cultures are human creations.
562
:We can recreate them, but we have
to know what we want to create.
563
:And if we keep talking about
dismantling the top of the domination
564
:pyramid, you know, economics and
politics is conventionally defined,
565
:and leave the base intact, it
keeps revealing itself, doesn't it?
566
:So, it's not coincidental.
567
:That talking about the Divine
Feminine is horrific for anybody,
568
:well, you know very well.
569
:And I want to ask you how, are you
the only one in your family who
570
:left or is there somebody else?
571
:Liz Childs Kelly: Well, what
I'll say about my family is it
572
:was not a super rigid, you know,
fundamentalist kind of family.
573
:I think the, the, the faith was
very forefront, but more on, I would
574
:say in an intellectual way, not in
a you know, I demand allegiance at
575
:all costs, but I would, what I would
say is that my own journey, yes, I
576
:was the only one really that left.
577
:And that was very
challenging for my family.
578
:And particularly the relationship that
I have with my mother and I, you know,
579
:getting a book deal definitely helped.
580
:It normalized what I was doing a
bit in a way that I think made it
581
:more comfortable and palatable.
582
:And I, I will say she's come a long way,
but yes, I am pretty much still the only
583
:one who's on this different path for sure.
584
:Riane Eisler: But you are on this path.
585
:And there are so many people on this path.
586
:But we have to have a frame.
587
:My work you know, and this has been
a very non linear interview the
588
:divine feminine is an inconceivable
concept to people who are brought
589
:up in a rigid domination system.
590
:And frankly it is a system that
has very rigid gender stereotypes.
591
:And it has the ranking of what is
considered masculine, you know,
592
:violence competition, eat, but dog
eat dog competition, not competition.
593
:Because I think there is competition
in partnership systems too.
594
:But it's a question of, I
see that you're orating.
595
:You know, I used to do a
lot of keynote speeches.
596
:Thanks.
597
:And I, I see somebody who's
really a very good orator.
598
:Well, I, it's something
I want to aspire to.
599
:And that's competition in a way.
600
:But it's not this, and of
course dogs don't eat dogs.
601
:I mean, you know, but we've
been taught to accept that.
602
:It, it is a lot of
unlearning and relearning.
603
:But we have to Know the foundations
that we have to build because, and we
604
:see what are the foundations on which
domination systems we build themselves.
605
:And it starts with family and
childhood, because that's what
606
:neuroscience shows that nothing less
than the structure of our brains.
607
:And with it, how we feel,
how we think, how we act.
608
:Including how we vote is really
very much a question of what kind of
609
:family, and most people don't have
the courage, frankly or the capacity,
610
:really, they're so traumatized.
611
:You weren't.
612
:You, a very interesting clue is
what you said, that it wasn't
613
:that you have to obey or else.
614
:That's kind of, I was rearing.
615
:is fundamental to conditioning people
to fit into domination systems.
616
:You either follow the strong
man leader, right, or else.
617
:So then is gender.
618
:And we are so used to look at
what happens to domestic violence.
619
:And even though there's a movement
to call it coercive control
620
:now, you know, California.
621
:Ireland, Great Britain have,
have coercive control searches.
622
:It's, I think we need to call
it what it is, violence in
623
:the family, family violence.
624
:And yes, we are planning a campaign.
625
:And those who are interested in it, please
get in touch because it is so fundamental.
626
:So we have to show we,
we are trying to get.
627
:Especially spiritual and religious
leaders to speak out for nonviolent
628
:families, because so many people
think that spanking is not violence.
629
:I mean, this is insane.
630
:Of course it's violence.
631
:It's hitting.
632
:And what do children learn from that?
633
:They learn that it's okay for those
who are bigger and stronger to use
634
:violence to impose their will on
those who are weaker and smaller.
635
:I mean, it's so simple, isn't it?
636
:Then there is economics.
637
:If we don't really change our
economic system, we're trying to.
638
:People like you, but dropping out.
639
:Is creating an alternative
is what we have to do.
640
:And we have to start with creating we
tried to with social wealth economic
641
:indicators which you can find on our
website at center for partnership.
642
:org, which really show.
643
:Whether the real wills of our nation,
especially in our post industrial
644
:age, when economists say that our
most important capital, which I
645
:really hate, is human capital,
you know, capacity development.
646
:I mean, when we, we know from
neuroscience that whether or not we have
647
:these flexible, creative people, etc.
648
:largely depends on the type
of, Education and of care they
649
:receive very early on, isn't it?
650
:So, and of course, story and language.
651
:Your example of the woman who said,
I'm going to butcher this is so good
652
:because what she really meant was
something that doesn't require the term.
653
:I'm going to misspeak.
654
:You know, that's, that's
perfectly acceptable.
655
:We are so used to using, well, I, and
we can change it like that old adage
656
:of killing two birds with one stone.
657
:Well, how about hashing
two birds with one egg?
658
:Liz Childs Kelly: Yes, my therapist
likes to say feeding two birds
659
:with one scone, which I also like.
660
:Riane Eisler: I love that.
661
:So we have to count on human
creativity, but we really need to
662
:build the partnership configuration.
663
:And that means taking into account
that disenfranchising women is
664
:very much related to not having
the work a deity that is feminine.
665
:Yes.
666
:And it's just very simple that
the return of the feminine
667
:divine is part of the movement.
668
:But for people who are heavily
traumatized, That's humancy, isn't it?
669
:Liz Childs Kelly: Yes.
670
:Well, and one of the things that I
noticed coming up, I'm noticing in our
671
:conversation, and I think it's sort of
a residual memory of when I was first
672
:reading your book, is a feeling of anger
and that that there's so many ways in
673
:which this information is not easily
accessible to us or When I really started
674
:and you will know this I think very well
but when I started kind of going down my
675
:own searching path and reading I would
find information from From people like
676
:Maria Gambutis, or I cannot remember the
name of the man who did the, the research
677
:in or the excavations in Minoan Crete, but
you will find these sort of picking apart.
678
:Yeah, there's this picking apart of
people's work and questioning it and
679
:holding it to a standard of, almost
an impossible standard, like I, I so
680
:deeply respect you doing this work and
writing this at a time when you did
681
:I can only imagine the, the potential
opposition that you were running
682
:into, or I think about people like Max
DeShue who ended up leaving Harvard
683
:because she knew she could never do
the research she wanted to do there.
684
:It wasn't going to be taken seriously.
685
:And so I, all of that was kind of
coming to a head for me when I first
686
:read the chalice and the blade.
687
:And I feel like kind of rising
up now because it really is.
688
:It feels like in a way that these Systems
are kind of designed to self perpetuate
689
:and so then therefore squash down anything
that's really going to challenge it.
690
:And I, I wonder for you, somebody
who's been doing this work, which is
691
:so sacred and important for decades
now, where have you found kind of
692
:the resilience to keep going with it?
693
:As I would imagine you've run
into some blocks along the way.
694
:Riane Eisler: Well, you know, look,
perseverance is what it takes.
695
:Yeah.
696
:But that perseverance is
an existential commitment.
697
:I, I think that we, I don't know
what the outcome will be of this
698
:struggle between domination and
partnership, and I think in the short
699
:run we're in for some difficult times.
700
:But in the long run, if we have a
different frame, if we understand.
701
:And if we are not distracted, I mean,
this, this whole conversation about
702
:capitalism versus socialism is a complete
distraction, because both Smith and
703
:Marx perpetuated the hidden system of
gendered values, the devaluation of
704
:caring for people starting at birth
and caring for our Mother Earth.
705
:It is, there is nothing in either of
their writings about caring for nature.
706
:Nature was there to be exploited.
707
:And as for caring for people, it
was to be done for free by a woman
708
:in a male controlled household.
709
:These systems came out of the 1700s,
the:
710
:system was just beginning to be
challenged in an organized way.
711
:There have always been people
who have challenged it.
712
:But most of them have met
with an untimely death.
713
:And it's only as that changed.
714
:And the system, and it changed
during times of great disequilibrium.
715
:I mean, I really recommend that
people read that's another thing
716
:that really has me worried is the
shortening of the attention span.
717
:And that's why we're making a
movie because people are more
718
:inclined to watch than to read.
719
:But I really think that, well,
most of my books are on audio,
720
:so you can listen to them.
721
:And I really think that that's very, very
important, and that we connect the dots.
722
:Because it's not, the people pushing us
back really have a very coherent frame.
723
:It's a domination frame, starting
with God fearing, fearing, you know,
724
:the, remember the promise keepers?
725
:But maybe you're too young.
726
:But, you know, men were told
that they either control their
727
:families or they leave them.
728
:Those are their only choices.
729
:I mean, that's, that's really, and
the very rigid gender stereotypes.
730
:How else can you rank?
731
:masculine over feminine.
732
:Unless you have very
rigid gender stereotypes.
733
:So a lot of things that seem absolutely
disconnected happening today are
734
:movement towards partnership, but
it's happening in bits and pieces.
735
:Liz Childs Kelly: Well, and I guess maybe
that, that kind of leads me to what feels
736
:like a, a final question for you, which
is, I, I, I know, is, is hope a part
737
:of your framework at this point, and do
you have, you know, hope for our future?
738
:Like, how do you hold that based on
where we are in this moment in the,
739
:you know, the career and the work
that you've done over all this time?
740
:Riane Eisler: Well, I know
what I said earlier is that
741
:culture is a human creation.
742
:Yeah.
743
:We can uncreate and recreate it, but we
have to know what we're trying to build,
744
:and as long as we don't take into account
family, childhood, gender, changing our,
745
:the values behind our economic system,
and yes, changing our stories and our
746
:language, those are the four cornerstones.
747
:On which the old system, the
domination system, and really this
748
:old system is only about 5 years old.
749
:Because war was non existent before then
and so was really this rather nonsensical
750
:idea that the divine is only in male form.
751
:We have this, I mean, in Christianity,
we have this ridiculous holy family,
752
:which only the father and the
son are divine, the only mortal.
753
:is the mother of God.
754
:I mean, this makes no
sense whatsoever, does it?
755
:Liz Childs Kelly: Not at all.
756
:Yes.
757
:I mean, what's more divine
than the mother of God?
758
:That makes no sense.
759
:Right.
760
:Riane Eisler: And of course we know from
the Gnostic Gospels what an important
761
:part Mary Magdalene played in the
early Christian movement, and that,
762
:yes, she was a partner to Jesus, and
of course Jesus was a Jew, preaching
763
:not preaching, you know, do unto others
what you would have them do unto you.
764
:Isaiah said, you know, that,
that, that, it dates back to
765
:Isaiah in the Old Testament.
766
:I mean, he was trying to teach
partnerships, so called feminine
767
:values of care, rather than coercion.
768
:And we have to be very conscious
of how in domination systems,
769
:caring and coercion, there's a
confluence between them, isn't there?
770
:In starting in families.
771
:In economics, you know, those on
top will take care of us, right?
772
:No, they won't.
773
:Not as long as they are
indoctrinated that there has to be
774
:somebody who wins and who loses.
775
:Somebody on top and somebody on bottom.
776
:Liz Childs Kelly: Yes.
777
:Riane Eisler: So it's all connected.
778
:And you say about hope, and I say I,
People ask me that question, you know,
779
:do I have hope, and I, of course,
have hope, because I believe That we
780
:humans can recreate our culture once
we understand our past, our present,
781
:and the possibilities for the future.
782
:Liz Childs Kelly: Well, I want to
thank you for your contribution and
783
:your work over all of these years.
784
:And you know, I wouldn't be doing
what I do if it weren't for you.
785
:And it certainly gives me hope and
a sense of great purpose and it's
786
:very much a calling for me too.
787
:So I'm just so deeply grateful for
You know, not only your time with
788
:me today, but also all that you are
contributing and have contributed in
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:helping us see these systems and imagine
something new and something different
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:that's going to be more supportive.
791
:So much gratitude.
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:Riane Eisler: I thank you for
the work that you're doing.
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:And I invite you and our
listeners, our viewers to join us.
794
:in this campaign for nonviolent families.
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:First of all, of course, we'll have
much more happiness, economically we'll
796
:save tons and tons of money, and yes,
there is a link between, and I show this
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:link in my work, between what happens
in families, And what happens in war
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:and terrorism crime you know, it is,
the arm bone is connected to the wrist
799
:bone and we have to connect the dots.
800
:Liz Childs Kelly: Yes.
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:Yes.
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:And I will make sure that
there's information about
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:all of your work in the book.
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:In the show notes, I know that
there's this, the partnerism site,
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:which sort of breaks out how we can
move more to partnerships systems.
806
:There's Rhianna's just amassed
an incredible amount of resources
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:in addition to her books and all
of her writings, there's so much.
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:So I will make sure that I put
all of that in the show notes as
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:well as any information about the
Peace Begins at Home campaign.
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:And Yeah, I just want to thank all
of you for listening as always.
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:It's such a joy to be able to
share these conversations with you.
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:And even if I can't see you out
there, I know that it just feels good.
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:It feels good to know that
we're in this together.
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:We're not alone.
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:We are, we are seeking different
ways of moving in the world together.
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:So I'm deeply grateful for you too.
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:And until next time, I hope you
take such good care of yourselves
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:and I'll be with you again soon.
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:Home to Her is hosted by me, Liz Kelley.
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:You can visit me online at hometoher.
821
:com, where you can find show
notes and other episodes.
822
:You can read articles about the
Sacred Feminine, and you'll also
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:find a link to join the Home to
Her Facebook group for lots more
824
:discussion and exploration of Her.
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:You can also follow me on Instagram,
at home to her, to keep up to
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:date with the latest episodes.
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:Thanks so much for joining us
and we'll see you back here soon.