On the latest episode, I'm joined by legendary systems scientist, futurist and cultural historian Dr. Riane Eisler. Riane is the recipient of many honors, such as the Distinguished Peace Leadership Award earlier given to the Dalai Lama, and is the author of many books, including The Chalice and the Blade, now in its 57th US printing and 27 foreign editions, The Real Wealth of Nations, hailed by Nobel Peace Laureate Desmond Tutu as "a template for the better world we have been so urgently seeking," and Nurturing Our Humanity, Oxford University Press, 2019, co-authored with Douglas P. Fry. 

Riane’s innovative whole-systems research offers new perspectives and practical tools for constructing a less violent, more egalitarian, gender-balanced, and sustainable future. She is the President of the Center for Partnership Systems, which provides practical applications of her work, and Editor in Chief of the online Interdisciplinary Journal of Partnership Studies published at the University of Minnesota.

On this episode, we discuss:

• Riane's early childhood experience as a Jewish refugee whose family fled Austria to escape the Nazis, and how that experience, as well as the loss of many family members during the Holocaust, caused her to question her understanding of God
• The difference between cultures of domination and partnership cultures, which she outlines in her groundbreaking work The Chalice and the Blade, and the shifts she's seen in culture since the book was first published
• The subtle pervasiveness of dominator culture, and how we can find it rooted in our language, as well as all the underpinnings of society
• Riane's focus on violence in the home, and how it directly correlates to violence in other aspects of society
• Plus, we riff on the magic of snakes and their ancient connections to the Divine Feminine (always a favorite topic of mine!)

Notes related to this episode:

• You can learn more about Riane, her many books and her extense work at her website: https://rianeeisler.com/
• You can learn more about the Center for Partnership Systems at https://centerforpartnership.org/resources/riane-eisler/
• During this episode, Riane mentioned parapsychologist Thelma Moss, as well as the ancient Anatolian civilization Catal Huyuk. She also mentioned the evangelical Christian organization Promise Keepers.

And here are a few more details about this show and my work:

• If you’d like to know whose ancestral tribal lands you currently reside on, you can look up your address here: https://native-land.ca/
• You can also visit the Coalition of Natives and Allies for more helpful educational resources about Indigenous rights and history.
• Please – if you love this podcast and/or have read my book, please consider leaving me a review, and thank you for supporting my work!
• You can also access video episodes on the Home to Her YouTube channel
• For more Sacred Feminine goodness and to stay up to date on all episodes, please follow me on Instagram: @hometoher.
• To dive into conversation about the Sacred Feminine, join the Facebook group: / hometoher
• And to read about the Sacred Feminine, check out my award-winning book Home to Her: Walking the Transformative Path of the Sacred Feminine (Womancraft Publishing), available on Audible and wherever you buy your books!. If you've read it, your reviews on Goodreads and Amazon are greatly appreciated!

Hello, and welcome to Home to Her,

the podcast that's dedicated to

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reclaiming the lost and stolen

wisdom of the sacred feminine.

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I'm your host, Liz Kelley, and on

each episode, we explore her stories

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and myths, her spiritual principles,

and most importantly, what this

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wisdom has to offer us right now.

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Thanks for being here.

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Let's get started.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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Liz Childs Kelly: Hey everybody,

this is Liz joining you as usual from

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Central Virginia and the unceded lands

of the Monacan Nation, and I am so

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glad that you are here with me today.

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And as always, if you would like to know

whose native lands you are residing on, be

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sure to check out the map at native land.

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ca.

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It's a map of the entire world,

super helpful, and I always put that

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in the show notes, so if you don't

remember, you can check it out there.

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And If you are interested in learning

more about the sacred feminine, there's

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so many ways that you can do that.

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You could certainly check out

past podcast episodes here.

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We've got almost a hundred at this point

that you can go through, but there's some

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other ways that you can learn from me

specifically to go on over to Home to Her.

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You'll find articles there and you'll

also find the past podcast episodes.

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And then you can find information

about my book, Home to Her,

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Walking the Transformative Path

of the Sacred Feminine, which is

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published by WomanCraft Publishing.

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That's available wherever you buy

your books and also on Audible now.

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And it would be great if you wanted

to keep up with episodes and whatnot

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to follow me on social media.

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You can find me at Home to

Her on Instagram and Facebook.

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And I love your feedback.

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Social is a really good

way to reach out to me.

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So if you have questions or comments on

the most recent episodes, suggestions,

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I always love to hear from you.

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And so with that, I want to

tell you about my guest today.

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Her work has been hugely influential to

me, and I'm guessing that if you have

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been on the Sacred Feminine path for a

while, it may have been for you as well.

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She's been on my wish list of podcast

guests since the very beginning,

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and I also think if you have delved

into the historical record of the

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Sacred Feminine at all, I think the

odds are very high for having me.

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That you've heard of her

or read some of her work.

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So I am so honored that she's with me

today, and I'm just thrilled to be able

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to share this conversation with you.

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Dr.

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Riane Eisler is the recipient of many

honors, such as the Distinguished

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Peace Leadership Award earlier given

to the Dalai Lama, and internationally

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known for her groundbreaking

contributions as a systems scientist,

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futurist, and cultural historian.

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She is author of many books, including The

Chalice and the Blade, now in its 57th U.

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S.

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printing and 27 foreign editions,

The Real Wealth of Nations,

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hailed by Nobel Peace Laureates.

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Desmond Tutu as a template for

the better world we have been so

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urgently seeking, and Nurturing

Our Humanity from Oxford University

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Press, co authored with Douglas P.

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Fry.

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Riane's innovative whole systems

research offers new perspectives and

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practical tools for constructing a

less violent, more egalitarian, gender

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balanced, and sustainable future.

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Eisler is president of the Center for

Partnership Systems, which provides

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practical applications of her work,

and she's editor in chief of the

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online Interdisciplinary Journal

of Partnership Studies published

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at the University of Minnesota.

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She keynotes conferences worldwide,

has taught at many universities,

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has written hundreds of articles

and contributions to both scholarly

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and popular books, pioneered the

application of human rights standards

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to women and children, has addressed

the UN General Assembly, and consults

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to businesses and governments on the

partnership model introduced by her work.

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And she is joining us today from her home

on the Monterey Peninsula in California.

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Riane thank you so much for being here.

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It's such an honor to be with you.

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Riane Eisler: Well, it's a great pleasure

for me to be on your show and with you.

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Liz Childs Kelly: Thank you.

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And I was just thinking as I was

reading out all of these impressive

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accomplishments, I've been thinking

about this a lot lately, how

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how we have choice in, in how we

choose to show up in the world.

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And That I think so many people that have

been on this show and, and others that

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I've encountered that are doing work that

touches what I do, it feels like a very

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sacred mission and that also we don't

ever have to say yes to those callings.

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We can choose to do something

that's perhaps less challenging.

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And so I just want to say on behalf

of me and my listeners and all of us

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around the world, so much for saying

yes to such a, an incredible life path.

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I think we are really,

really benefiting from it.

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Riane Eisler: That's

more of a calling for me.

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Liz Childs Kelly: I absolutely understand.

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Yeah.

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Well, I love to start with guests on

hearing about spiritual backgrounds,

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your spiritual background growing up.

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And part of the reason why I like

to start there is I'm just curious.

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I enjoy hearing these things, but

also I think it's really interesting

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to, to tie that thread through.

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the beginnings and how that has showed up

in your life and in your work including

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perhaps the pieces that you wanted to

keep and, and even the ones that perhaps

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pointed you in different directions.

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So if that's all right with you,

I would love to start there.

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Riane Eisler: I certainly can start

because the passion that I have

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for this work is really deeply

rooted in my childhood experiences.

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I was a child refugee with

my parents from the Nazis.

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And from one day to the next,

My whole world was changed from

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being this cute little girl that

people would pat on the head.

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I, my parents and I, we became

hunted with license to kill.

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And so that's where my passion

is rooted and really where my

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spiritual journey is rooted too.

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Because I, we were able, my parents were

able to get an entry permit to Cuba, one

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of only two places that would take Jewish

refugees fleeing Nazis at that time.

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And so I grew up in the

industrial slums of Havana.

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And every night I would

join my father in praying.

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The, which is the Jewish prayer.

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And at the end of it, I would silently

pray that everyone by name now, 'cause

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I knew the names of all of those who

were left behind would be all right.

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And that space.

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Collapsed when I saw the newsreels

years later of the survivors of

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the Nazi concentration camps.

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And I found out that most of my

extended family, grandparents,

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aunts, uncles, cousins were killed.

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by the Nazis.

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And so my spiritual journey was a rather

jagged one because I thought that the

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god that I had prayed to was either

didn't exist or was mad or crazy or evil.

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And it was really only years

later when I came back to the

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questions of my childhood.

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Which were obviously questions, well,

questions that I think many of us

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have asked at some point in our lives.

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Does it have to be with,

you know, this way?

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As we're told, you know, by stories

like Original Sin, right, we're evil,

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or Selfish Genes, which really, they

fight each other, because one is secular

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and one is religious, but it's the

same message, we're bad, we have to be

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rigidly controlled from the top, right?

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Starting with God fearing.

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And so years later, I came back to these

questions of, as I said, does it have to

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be this way when we humans have so, such

a capacity for caring for sensitivity?

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Why has there been so much

cruelty, so much violence?

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And I set out to answer these questions.

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And lo and behold, I found the Divine

Feminine, and I found as detailed in my

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book, The Chalice and the Blade which

as you said is really a textbook in,

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and it is a textbook, by the way, in

many places, but it's very accessible,

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it tells a story, it tells our story,

and it shows that there was a time

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when, yes, when the divine was Feminine.

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That does not mean, however, that the

opposite of patriarchy is matriarchy.

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It's really the other side of the coin.

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The opposite of patriarchy is what I

call partnership, rather than domination.

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Liz Childs Kelly: Yeah,

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and it's funny, I My own, you know,

journey to the, to the Divine Feminine was

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very, it was very much an embodied kind of

intuitive thing that, that landed for me.

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And I, I was raised a conservative

Christian in a Southern Baptist household.

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So just no exposure to anything

feminine in the face of God whatsoever.

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And But it was an intuitive felt sense

after many kind of experiences that

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I, you know, felt kind of mystical and

unexplained where I'm like, there must

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be a divine feminine and now I just

want to, you know, hug that version

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of me and just, you know, because she,

there's so much evidence, you know, as,

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as amassed by you and Maria Gambutis

and just so many people who've been

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doing this work for decades, but yeah.

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You know, even this was even 10, 11

years ago, it wasn't in the forefront

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of my consciousness and nothing, even my

advanced degrees, you know, I had to had

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put it into, into my consciousness yet.

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So I want to go back to that and talk

about that a little bit about how, how do

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we continue to get this in front of women.

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But And everyone, but I'd love to hear

you tell me about, did you, was it, did

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you find the divine feminine through your

research or was there some moment before

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that where it kind of seeped into your

consciousness in the way that I described

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for me and what was that like for you?

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Riane Eisler: You know, it's really very

interesting because as you know, I started

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this work by using a new methodology.

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Which is an inclusive methodology, the

study of relational dynamics, and it

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really, relational is the key word.

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What kinds of relations does a

particular social system support?

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Which is a question that we should

be asking and we need to be asking.

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You know, is it this top down,

oppressive relationship, which in

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its most rigid forms is it a life and

death issue, really or is it mutuality,

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mutual respect, mutual accountability?

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Transparency is a word that has

crept into our language, hasn't it?

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Which has absolutely no no place

in the domination system, right?

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Of course it's not

going to be transparent.

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So, but my journey you know, I sometimes

talk about my life being like the pieces

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of a jigsaw puzzle, because in a school

in Cuba, and my parents, my mother in

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law, you know, sold her jewelry, which

she could smuggle out, to send me to a

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good school, a bilingual Methodist school.

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And it was a very interesting time because

my parents, you know, I got very tired of

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being, you know, the Methodists, as you

probably know, are very proselytizing.

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And so every day we had to go

to chapel, and every day Mr.

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Munoz, who was the head of the school,

would ask, Do you believe in Jesus Christ?

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And I got very, very tired of

being the only kid who didn't

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raise their hand, you know.

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And so I raised my hand.

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You know, I mean, I was very young.

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And my parents found out, and they

hired a rabbi to teach me that

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I'm Jewish, as if I didn't know,

because we had to escape, you know.

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But but the questions that I would ask,

We're not the usual questions, like in

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the Bible, it says that henceforth woman

is to be subservient to man, right?

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And I wanted to know, well, what

was it like before the henceforth?

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And nobody wanted to talk about that.

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And I also wanted to know why did Eve,

you know, woman ask advice from a snake?

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I mean, we don't usually do that.

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I don't know.

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And nobody wanted to talk about that.

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And fast forward well, also in that

school, by the way, there was a

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teacher who taught about prehistory.

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I had no idea that there was such a time.

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And I was fascinated.

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By the concept.

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I mean, this is why I talk about my

life like the pieces of a jigsaw puzzle,

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because later, I mean, years later,

when I undertook my research on our

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past, present, and the possibilities

for our future to answer the questions

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of my childhood, or try to answer them.

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When I went back to prehistory, I

found out, for example, that there

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was a time before the hence, you

know, before the henceforth, when

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woman was not, as we are told in one

of the stories, because there are two

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creation stories in the Bible, you know.

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And, but the best known one is the one of

Eve and Adam in the fall, quote unquote,

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from paradise due to the sin of, and

that's bizarre, of even thinking of,

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of asking for wisdom, for knowledge on

our own, which of course is fundamental

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to domination regimes, isn't it?

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Anyway, I found out that the snake,

for example, was not only a symbol of

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the regeneration of life and associated

with the veneration of a female

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deity, a goddess but that snakes were

also symbols of oracular prophecy.

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But think about the Oracle of Delphi,

already in historic times in Greece.

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A female priestess, a pisoness she

was called, worked with snakes,

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and if you look at the Minoan

statues of the so called goddess or

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priestess, I think, figures, they

have snakes coiled around their arms,

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and they're in an oracular trance.

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So when I say that my journey was like the

pieces of a jigsaw puzzle coming together.

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The coming together happened with

my calling to really do this work.

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I mean, I, I just had to.

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Liz Childs Kelly: Yes,

so many good things.

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I, I'm looking, I wish I can, I can't

turn the camera over there for, for

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viewers, but I have a replica of that

Minoan snake goddess and got to see her

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when I was in Crete several years ago.

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And one of the reasons I have this on

my arm and, you know, that's the, For

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listeners, it's a, it's a tattoo that I

got recently of a snake on my my wrist.

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Riane Eisler: Well, the snake

has a lot of meaning for you.

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Liz Childs Kelly: Very much so.

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Very much so.

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And has carried that for some time for me.

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Yeah.

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Riane Eisler: I did an interview

recently with the Scientific American.

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And the woman who

interviewed me is Indian.

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And she She wanted to know whether

snakebites put you in an oracular

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trance, and because she saw that a lot

of the Indian gurus used, you know,

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snakes and went into this trance.

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Liz Childs Kelly: So

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Riane Eisler: it's a well known

ancient lore that if you survive that

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bite you are in a regular trance and

you access some kind of knowledge.

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That often, it's, it's, it's you know,

my, my late husband who I miss terribly

245

because we had 45 years of being together

David Loy he was a student of, of, of

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forecasting, and he was also interested

in what is still called the paranormal.

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Liz Childs Kelly: Yes.

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Riane Eisler: Very interested.

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In fact, when he was the project

head of the study of the effects of

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television on adults at the UCLA School

of Medicine, which is when we first met.

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He was very interested in that because

Selma Moss, who was in that school and

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many of you know who she was because she

studied the paranormal she was fired.

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And there was this forlorn little

group studying mental telepathy

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that met in the basement.

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Of the UCLA schools of medicine and

they asked David if he would be their

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faculty sponsor and he said sure and

so I became it's very unreliable.

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Sometimes we access it

and sometimes we don't.

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Liz Childs Kelly: Yes,

and it's interesting.

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I won't go into the whole story, but

I live in Charlottesville, Virginia,

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that area now, and have been here

for about three years, but there's

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a Department of Perceptual Studies

that's part of the University of

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Virginia's School of Medicine, and

they're also studying similar things,

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near death experiences, out of body

experiences, the paranormal and whatnot.

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And I am always so fascinated by that

intersection of the science and the

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kind of, you know, I don't know what to

call it, but we tend to put that more

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in, like, the mystical realm, I guess.

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I love when those things kind of come

together and we think in that way

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to explore those things together.

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Riane Eisler: Well, I think that this

is off subject, perhaps, but, you

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know, we malign the Enlightenment.

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But the enlightenment was a time when

one social movement after another after

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that challenged traditions of domination.

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You know, the challenge to

the so-called Divine right of

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King Su, their whole subjects.

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And then the feminist movement challenging

the so-called divinely ordained

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right of men to the lower women and

children, and then the abolitionist

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and civil rights, et cetera, movements.

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Challenging the so called divinely

ordained right of a, quote, superior

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race to rule over inferior ones all

the way to today, to the environmental

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movement, challenging man's once

hallowed conquest and domination of

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nature erodes challenging the same

thing, a tradition of domination.

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Yeah.

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And that became very evident

to me in doing my research.

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Prehistory, that using the conventional

categories and, and yes, being

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highly educated, which means not

going, you know, to, to universities,

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fragments our consciousness, because

it's all very siloed, isn't it?

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Liz Childs Kelly: Yes.

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Riane Eisler: And very, it, it, it makes

it almost impossible to connect the dots.

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And my work is connecting the dots.

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And surely.

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That's what neuroscience

shows today, for example.

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That early, the early years in

our intimate relations, our family

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and other intimate relations are

fundamental to our worldview.

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Liz Childs Kelly: And

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Riane Eisler: the conversation

today about trauma is very

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much of a partnership trend.

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Because we're realizing that

domination systems, as I have written

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in my books, are trauma factors.

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So it is.

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Liz Childs Kelly: Yeah.

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Riane Eisler: Well,

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Liz Childs Kelly: and that

kind of is a nice tee up to a

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question that I wanted to ask you.

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So I think if I'm calculating right,

at least from my edition of the

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Chalice and the Blade, it's been 37

years, I think, since that came out.

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Yeah.

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And 86.

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Yes.

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I think my copy was 87.

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But I would love to know what you

think, you know, from, from that

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point of publishing that work to now.

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How do you think our

understanding of this.

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existing paradigm of

dominator culture has shifted.

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And you just named, you know, our, our

conversation around trauma is obviously

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one of those, but maybe what are

some of the ways in which you've seen

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things shift in, in that timeframe?

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Riane Eisler: Well the talk about gender

is very much of the partnership trend.

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I don't like the term toxic masculinity.

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Because that's what men are taught,

but it is domination masculinity.

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In that, well maybe if I were to tell

you the difference between what I call

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partnership and domination systems.

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Yeah.

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That would be a good place to start.

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Because I realized very early on in my

research to try to answer the questions,

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you know, does it have to be this way?

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Yeah.

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I couldn't answer them using the

conventional social categories that we

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have, like right left, religious secular,

eastern western, northern southern.

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For one thing there have been

repressive, violent regimes in

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every one of these categories.

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So, none of them tells

us what we have to build.

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You know, we can critique them, too.

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You know, forever.

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But if we have no idea of what kind of

configuration we have to put together we,

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we, we can't lay the foundations for that.

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So I started to draw from a much larger

database because the other thing about

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our conventional categories, if you really

think about it, which we're taught not

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to do They all either marginalize or

ignore nothing less than the majority

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of humanity, women and children.

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And that is fatal.

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I mean, you can't talk about

systems studies if you do that.

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And so I drew from a much

larger database, obviously.

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And I also drew from prehistory.

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So it's the whole of our history, the

whole of humanity, and also, of course, if

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you, if you leave out women and children,

you leave out family, because they were

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confined, you know, they had no access

to the, quote, men's world, it used to

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be called, remember, the public sphere.

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And so a lot of the feminists struggle.

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Has been to gain access to that, to the

professions through higher education.

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But at the same time we have been

indoctrinated, really, through

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our, quote, higher education.

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It isn't the people who are into

the God fearing, you know, the kind

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of background that you came from.

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But it's also progressives I remember.

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Because I was a pioneer in getting, I

wrote the first article for the really

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the Human Rights Quarterly, which was

the, you know, the publication of the

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Human Rights Movement, on what later,

the same year, 86 on what later became

358

known as Women's Rights are Human Rights.

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And we've always said, we've made this

distinction, it's okay to interfere.

360

in what states do, but it's not okay

to interfere in what families do.

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And actually what happens

in families is fundamental.

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And the good news are people like

you who free themselves of that

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and take a different direction.

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Because we humans and I'm, I've been very

non linear, but there's so much to cover.

365

Really neuroscience shows that

that kind of background tends,

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tends is the word, to make people

accept domination and violence.

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Punitive families,

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Liz Childs Kelly: which

makes total sense to me.

369

Yeah.

370

And I, I want to, I want to,

I want to come back to that.

371

I want to talk about that more, but one

of the things that I was also thinking

372

about as I was preparing for this

conversation was you know, when I began

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this, this, this particular journey,

you know, that I have been on with

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learning more about the divine feminine.

375

And then of course, that is seeped

into every aspect of my life.

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One thing that felt really frustrating

for me in being able to articulate it to

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other people was this awareness that I

mean, you just named it so eloquently,

378

but that we don't participate in systems

that were created with the, with the

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input of women or children at all.

380

Like we just were, were erased from them.

381

And so yet.

382

gaining success and higher education and

financial resources within those systems,

383

which is something that I was able to do.

384

It, and yet I still felt like I

didn't belong in those places,

385

which of course makes total sense

because they weren't designed for me.

386

But trying to articulate that to

people in a way that they could see

387

was so frustrating because It's the

absolute undercurrent of everything.

388

And.

389

If you can't see it, you can't see it.

390

And so, and I, I wonder, I just, I'd

love to hear your thoughts on that.

391

And I, there was part of me that wants

to say, well, things are changing so

392

rapidly and they are, and it's amazing.

393

And I would say even in my own life over

the last 10 years, I am surrounded by

394

people who do see it and understand it.

395

And I talk to them every day, and I

feel like the numbers are growing.

396

And yet I also talk to women who are

still very much And in that, in that

397

same framework and model of I am

achieving, I'm doing all the things,

398

and I cannot find my sense of self in

this place, and I turn it on myself.

399

And so I just wonder, you know,

it's obvious to me in war torn

400

cultures who's suffering the

most, you know, like we see it.

401

It's the women and children.

402

There is no question, but

there's a different kind of.

403

Thing that's happening

here in the United States.

404

And I think in other wealthier nations

where it's it's it's it's much harder

405

to actually see a name in some ways.

406

So I just I'm curious what that

you know how you understand that

407

and how you respond to that.

408

Riane Eisler: Well, what you are

talking about is my journey, my

409

journey of discovery, which is

what my books are really about.

410

Because, like in my second book, which

I wrote ten, which was published ten

411

years after Chavez, A Sacred Pleasure.

412

I go into, and it foreshadows

a lot of what I have written.

413

I mean the subtitle is Sex, Myth,

and the Politics of the Body.

414

And of course, you know, that's

one of the trends, isn't it?

415

I mean, trauma, as we know,

is embedded in our bodies.

416

It's not so simple to say, well, I no

longer believe, because It's it's there.

417

You bring up my whole journey because

after that book I wrote on, I really

418

wanted to see how can we change this,

you know, chalice does end with that with

419

two scenarios, you know, breakthrough

of evolution or breakdown of evolution.

420

And it's still as

relevant, if not more so.

421

Frankly, even though there have been more

discoveries, like discovery that women

422

hunted, for example, or that the hands in

the, in the IC caves were women's hands.

423

I mean that, but you know, the guy

who, who published on that, he didn't

424

publish that until he went emeritus.

425

The Academy just doesn't accept this

yet, I mean, and it's not well known,

426

isn't it, that the fingers of the

hands of women and men are different?

427

He happened to know that.

428

And lo and behold, you know, we

were always told, right, that

429

these are handprints of the

artist, which were he, right?

430

And it turns out that they're

women's most of the time.

431

So, I mean, we're finding out so much,

but my work brings it all together.

432

And to continue on my journey I

became more and more interested in

433

changing and cultural transformation.

434

What do we need to do?

435

Because we've inherited a lot of this

I mean, you know, and I'm very worried,

436

for example, about AI at this point,

because it's garbage in and garbage

437

out, you know, it will be programmed

with all of this, quote, knowledge,

438

which is A lot of it just isn't true,

and we have to participate in making

439

new stories that more accurately

reflect our past, our present, and

440

the possibilities for our future.

441

Because the thing about it is not enough

to protest and to critique and to disrupt.

442

You have to have a sense

of where you want to go.

443

I promised you I would describe the

partnership and domination systems, as

444

far as I have, my findings are that the

cultural transformation is not from left

445

to right, or from religious or secular,

or eastern and western, because, you

446

know, I mean, look at Nazi Germany,

it was a secular isn't a question of

447

religious or secular, look at the Taliban.

448

You know they're religious and

yet look at the Unitarians.

449

I mean, you know those categories,

you can have the partnership and

450

domination orientation because it's

always a matter of degree in both.

451

Religious or secular, eastern or western,

northern or southern, so on and so on.

452

But the configuration is

what, we don't want to go back

453

to any good old days, okay?

454

But what the study of prehistory

shows is a certain configuration.

455

Take a place like Çatalhöyük,

for example, which I think you

456

are very well familiar with.

457

It's one of the largest early

farming sites ever excavated.

458

Liz Childs Kelly: And modern

day Turkey, for listeners, yeah,

459

who may not know, it's modern

460

Riane Eisler: day Turkey.

461

Turkey in Anatolia.

462

And as Ian Hodder, who is one

of the excavators said in his

463

interview, there's a movie being

made about my life and my work.

464

And he was interviewed for it.

465

And he said it was definitely a dynamic

society guided for a woman actors for

466

a man and the between them for linking

rather than ranking that it's not

467

only that you have in a partnership

system, the opposite of what you

468

have in a nomination system Which,

in a domination system, you have top

469

down control authoritarian family.

470

Family is part of my research.

471

Economics is part of my research.

472

And, of course, society and

all the social institutions.

473

But as you move to the partnership

system, which we see in so many

474

people, like, Many of the ones that

you are in touch with, they've rejected

475

that model of family, haven't they?

476

That, which takes me to the second part

of the configuration, which is gender.

477

I don't know if you've noticed, and

let's look at the MAGA movement,

478

or the Taliban, or Nazi Germany.

479

It, it doesn't really matter.

480

They always have the subordination of the

female form to the male form of humanity.

481

And those are the two

basic forms that we have.

482

So what, you know, the, the,

the caveman cartoon, right?

483

In one hand, he's got a club, a weapon.

484

In the other one, he's yanking

a woman, he's hauling a woman

485

by the hair, he's pulling her.

486

So male dominance, violence, war, let's

just quote human nature, which is a lie.

487

Because getting back to Tzotal

Huya, we had a thousand years

488

of no destruction from warfare.

489

Can you believe that?

490

It's, it's proof that war is

not inherent in human nature.

491

But how many people know

about Tsar Tomgul Yak?

492

And how many people know, even

in some of the newer books, which

493

bits and pieces, you know, are,

are coming out with this evidence?

494

They don't talk about the fact that it

was not a male dominated society, as

495

Hodder, Ian Hodder, the archaeologist,

wrote in an article in the Scientific

496

American being born male or female

was not effective in determining

497

one's opportunities and one's status.

498

You know, we have to learn about our past.

499

We have to learn the truth about our

past, and about the possibilities about

500

what's really happening today, and also

about the possibilities for our future,

501

because that's the struggle for our

world today, is between partnership

502

and domination, and violence and abuse

is built into domination systems.

503

Whether it's child and wife

violence, you know, beating,

504

whatever, you know, killing,

quote, domestic violence and that.

505

You see, we've learned as women and

men, because this is not a question of

506

women against men or men against women.

507

It's a question of social structure.

508

And men don't have it so good.

509

They have to give nothing

less than their lives.

510

Because some guy on top, like a

Putin, wants more territory, right?

511

Wants more real estate.

512

I mean, but they do get to control

their families in that system.

513

They get to call the shots, if you will.

514

So, you really have to consider the whole

picture, and you have to consider story.

515

and language.

516

Liz Childs Kelly: Yes.

517

And I was thinking about too, I know

that you have been working on this

518

Peace Begins at Home campaign, which I

would love to hear you talk about, but

519

even that language, domestic violence

versus family violence, which I know

520

is the term that you would prefer.

521

It really, it does.

522

There's so many ways I think, and

we, in which we kind of minimize the.

523

The, the violence and the

impact and normalize it.

524

We could look at that in a lot of

different ways like a, a A woman

525

was raped as opposed to a man raped

her, you know, like we switch it

526

around, like, so it's, it's something

that happened to her as opposed to

527

an action that was actually done.

528

Or I, I just, I was talking to someone

who's very conscious yesterday and we

529

were literally talking about this, the

language that we use and metaphors of

530

violence, and then two minutes later, she

says, without even realizing it, I'm going

531

to butcher the pronunciation of this.

532

Butcher!

533

Like, oh my god, it's everywhere!

534

But I, I wonder if you could speak to

that, you know, that shift, that domestic

535

violence, family violence, because

when I think about, when I was reading

536

about your, your thoughts around this,

what I was thinking about is that all

537

pervasiveness of dominator culture.

538

And like, where do you even start

to, you, you pull, you've got to

539

pull at so many different threads to

get at it because it's so insidious.

540

Right.

541

But that feels like a very big one.

542

What's happening in the home?

543

Riane Eisler: Well We

have to focus on that.

544

And in my book on economics, because

that's what I now really very much focus

545

on, the real wealth, the real wealth.

546

You know, it's a play on Adam

Smith's The Wealth of Nations.

547

You know, care has been devalued

as it's coded feminine, right?

548

Yes.

549

And so what I propose is

really in that book is the

550

caring economics of partnerism.

551

I mean, we, we, you know this from

having been in the corporate world.

552

We don't want a piece of the existing pie.

553

We want to bake a better economic pie.

554

That's what it's about.

555

Certainly.

556

We have to go back to the

basic question of what do we

557

value, and what do we measure?

558

Because we measure what we value,

and we value what we measure.

559

So all of this is interconnected,

and so is language, of course.

560

And yes, there's a lot to do, but you

know, we have to remember something, which

561

is that our cultures are human creations.

562

We can recreate them, but we have

to know what we want to create.

563

And if we keep talking about

dismantling the top of the domination

564

pyramid, you know, economics and

politics is conventionally defined,

565

and leave the base intact, it

keeps revealing itself, doesn't it?

566

So, it's not coincidental.

567

That talking about the Divine

Feminine is horrific for anybody,

568

well, you know very well.

569

And I want to ask you how, are you

the only one in your family who

570

left or is there somebody else?

571

Liz Childs Kelly: Well, what

I'll say about my family is it

572

was not a super rigid, you know,

fundamentalist kind of family.

573

I think the, the, the faith was

very forefront, but more on, I would

574

say in an intellectual way, not in

a you know, I demand allegiance at

575

all costs, but I would, what I would

say is that my own journey, yes, I

576

was the only one really that left.

577

And that was very

challenging for my family.

578

And particularly the relationship that

I have with my mother and I, you know,

579

getting a book deal definitely helped.

580

It normalized what I was doing a

bit in a way that I think made it

581

more comfortable and palatable.

582

And I, I will say she's come a long way,

but yes, I am pretty much still the only

583

one who's on this different path for sure.

584

Riane Eisler: But you are on this path.

585

And there are so many people on this path.

586

But we have to have a frame.

587

My work you know, and this has been

a very non linear interview the

588

divine feminine is an inconceivable

concept to people who are brought

589

up in a rigid domination system.

590

And frankly it is a system that

has very rigid gender stereotypes.

591

And it has the ranking of what is

considered masculine, you know,

592

violence competition, eat, but dog

eat dog competition, not competition.

593

Because I think there is competition

in partnership systems too.

594

But it's a question of, I

see that you're orating.

595

You know, I used to do a

lot of keynote speeches.

596

Thanks.

597

And I, I see somebody who's

really a very good orator.

598

Well, I, it's something

I want to aspire to.

599

And that's competition in a way.

600

But it's not this, and of

course dogs don't eat dogs.

601

I mean, you know, but we've

been taught to accept that.

602

It, it is a lot of

unlearning and relearning.

603

But we have to Know the foundations

that we have to build because, and we

604

see what are the foundations on which

domination systems we build themselves.

605

And it starts with family and

childhood, because that's what

606

neuroscience shows that nothing less

than the structure of our brains.

607

And with it, how we feel,

how we think, how we act.

608

Including how we vote is really

very much a question of what kind of

609

family, and most people don't have

the courage, frankly or the capacity,

610

really, they're so traumatized.

611

You weren't.

612

You, a very interesting clue is

what you said, that it wasn't

613

that you have to obey or else.

614

That's kind of, I was rearing.

615

is fundamental to conditioning people

to fit into domination systems.

616

You either follow the strong

man leader, right, or else.

617

So then is gender.

618

And we are so used to look at

what happens to domestic violence.

619

And even though there's a movement

to call it coercive control

620

now, you know, California.

621

Ireland, Great Britain have,

have coercive control searches.

622

It's, I think we need to call

it what it is, violence in

623

the family, family violence.

624

And yes, we are planning a campaign.

625

And those who are interested in it, please

get in touch because it is so fundamental.

626

So we have to show we,

we are trying to get.

627

Especially spiritual and religious

leaders to speak out for nonviolent

628

families, because so many people

think that spanking is not violence.

629

I mean, this is insane.

630

Of course it's violence.

631

It's hitting.

632

And what do children learn from that?

633

They learn that it's okay for those

who are bigger and stronger to use

634

violence to impose their will on

those who are weaker and smaller.

635

I mean, it's so simple, isn't it?

636

Then there is economics.

637

If we don't really change our

economic system, we're trying to.

638

People like you, but dropping out.

639

Is creating an alternative

is what we have to do.

640

And we have to start with creating we

tried to with social wealth economic

641

indicators which you can find on our

website at center for partnership.

642

org, which really show.

643

Whether the real wills of our nation,

especially in our post industrial

644

age, when economists say that our

most important capital, which I

645

really hate, is human capital,

you know, capacity development.

646

I mean, when we, we know from

neuroscience that whether or not we have

647

these flexible, creative people, etc.

648

largely depends on the type

of, Education and of care they

649

receive very early on, isn't it?

650

So, and of course, story and language.

651

Your example of the woman who said,

I'm going to butcher this is so good

652

because what she really meant was

something that doesn't require the term.

653

I'm going to misspeak.

654

You know, that's, that's

perfectly acceptable.

655

We are so used to using, well, I, and

we can change it like that old adage

656

of killing two birds with one stone.

657

Well, how about hashing

two birds with one egg?

658

Liz Childs Kelly: Yes, my therapist

likes to say feeding two birds

659

with one scone, which I also like.

660

Riane Eisler: I love that.

661

So we have to count on human

creativity, but we really need to

662

build the partnership configuration.

663

And that means taking into account

that disenfranchising women is

664

very much related to not having

the work a deity that is feminine.

665

Yes.

666

And it's just very simple that

the return of the feminine

667

divine is part of the movement.

668

But for people who are heavily

traumatized, That's humancy, isn't it?

669

Liz Childs Kelly: Yes.

670

Well, and one of the things that I

noticed coming up, I'm noticing in our

671

conversation, and I think it's sort of

a residual memory of when I was first

672

reading your book, is a feeling of anger

and that that there's so many ways in

673

which this information is not easily

accessible to us or When I really started

674

and you will know this I think very well

but when I started kind of going down my

675

own searching path and reading I would

find information from From people like

676

Maria Gambutis, or I cannot remember the

name of the man who did the, the research

677

in or the excavations in Minoan Crete, but

you will find these sort of picking apart.

678

Yeah, there's this picking apart of

people's work and questioning it and

679

holding it to a standard of, almost

an impossible standard, like I, I so

680

deeply respect you doing this work and

writing this at a time when you did

681

I can only imagine the, the potential

opposition that you were running

682

into, or I think about people like Max

DeShue who ended up leaving Harvard

683

because she knew she could never do

the research she wanted to do there.

684

It wasn't going to be taken seriously.

685

And so I, all of that was kind of

coming to a head for me when I first

686

read the chalice and the blade.

687

And I feel like kind of rising

up now because it really is.

688

It feels like in a way that these Systems

are kind of designed to self perpetuate

689

and so then therefore squash down anything

that's really going to challenge it.

690

And I, I wonder for you, somebody

who's been doing this work, which is

691

so sacred and important for decades

now, where have you found kind of

692

the resilience to keep going with it?

693

As I would imagine you've run

into some blocks along the way.

694

Riane Eisler: Well, you know, look,

perseverance is what it takes.

695

Yeah.

696

But that perseverance is

an existential commitment.

697

I, I think that we, I don't know

what the outcome will be of this

698

struggle between domination and

partnership, and I think in the short

699

run we're in for some difficult times.

700

But in the long run, if we have a

different frame, if we understand.

701

And if we are not distracted, I mean,

this, this whole conversation about

702

capitalism versus socialism is a complete

distraction, because both Smith and

703

Marx perpetuated the hidden system of

gendered values, the devaluation of

704

caring for people starting at birth

and caring for our Mother Earth.

705

It is, there is nothing in either of

their writings about caring for nature.

706

Nature was there to be exploited.

707

And as for caring for people, it

was to be done for free by a woman

708

in a male controlled household.

709

These systems came out of the 1700s,

710

system was just beginning to be

challenged in an organized way.

711

There have always been people

who have challenged it.

712

But most of them have met

with an untimely death.

713

And it's only as that changed.

714

And the system, and it changed

during times of great disequilibrium.

715

I mean, I really recommend that

people read that's another thing

716

that really has me worried is the

shortening of the attention span.

717

And that's why we're making a

movie because people are more

718

inclined to watch than to read.

719

But I really think that, well,

most of my books are on audio,

720

so you can listen to them.

721

And I really think that that's very, very

important, and that we connect the dots.

722

Because it's not, the people pushing us

back really have a very coherent frame.

723

It's a domination frame, starting

with God fearing, fearing, you know,

724

the, remember the promise keepers?

725

But maybe you're too young.

726

But, you know, men were told

that they either control their

727

families or they leave them.

728

Those are their only choices.

729

I mean, that's, that's really, and

the very rigid gender stereotypes.

730

How else can you rank?

731

masculine over feminine.

732

Unless you have very

rigid gender stereotypes.

733

So a lot of things that seem absolutely

disconnected happening today are

734

movement towards partnership, but

it's happening in bits and pieces.

735

Liz Childs Kelly: Well, and I guess maybe

that, that kind of leads me to what feels

736

like a, a final question for you, which

is, I, I, I know, is, is hope a part

737

of your framework at this point, and do

you have, you know, hope for our future?

738

Like, how do you hold that based on

where we are in this moment in the,

739

you know, the career and the work

that you've done over all this time?

740

Riane Eisler: Well, I know

what I said earlier is that

741

culture is a human creation.

742

Yeah.

743

We can uncreate and recreate it, but we

have to know what we're trying to build,

744

and as long as we don't take into account

family, childhood, gender, changing our,

745

the values behind our economic system,

and yes, changing our stories and our

746

language, those are the four cornerstones.

747

On which the old system, the

domination system, and really this

748

old system is only about 5 years old.

749

Because war was non existent before then

and so was really this rather nonsensical

750

idea that the divine is only in male form.

751

We have this, I mean, in Christianity,

we have this ridiculous holy family,

752

which only the father and the

son are divine, the only mortal.

753

is the mother of God.

754

I mean, this makes no

sense whatsoever, does it?

755

Liz Childs Kelly: Not at all.

756

Yes.

757

I mean, what's more divine

than the mother of God?

758

That makes no sense.

759

Right.

760

Riane Eisler: And of course we know from

the Gnostic Gospels what an important

761

part Mary Magdalene played in the

early Christian movement, and that,

762

yes, she was a partner to Jesus, and

of course Jesus was a Jew, preaching

763

not preaching, you know, do unto others

what you would have them do unto you.

764

Isaiah said, you know, that,

that, that, it dates back to

765

Isaiah in the Old Testament.

766

I mean, he was trying to teach

partnerships, so called feminine

767

values of care, rather than coercion.

768

And we have to be very conscious

of how in domination systems,

769

caring and coercion, there's a

confluence between them, isn't there?

770

In starting in families.

771

In economics, you know, those on

top will take care of us, right?

772

No, they won't.

773

Not as long as they are

indoctrinated that there has to be

774

somebody who wins and who loses.

775

Somebody on top and somebody on bottom.

776

Liz Childs Kelly: Yes.

777

Riane Eisler: So it's all connected.

778

And you say about hope, and I say I,

People ask me that question, you know,

779

do I have hope, and I, of course,

have hope, because I believe That we

780

humans can recreate our culture once

we understand our past, our present,

781

and the possibilities for the future.

782

Liz Childs Kelly: Well, I want to

thank you for your contribution and

783

your work over all of these years.

784

And you know, I wouldn't be doing

what I do if it weren't for you.

785

And it certainly gives me hope and

a sense of great purpose and it's

786

very much a calling for me too.

787

So I'm just so deeply grateful for

You know, not only your time with

788

me today, but also all that you are

contributing and have contributed in

789

helping us see these systems and imagine

something new and something different

790

that's going to be more supportive.

791

So much gratitude.

792

Riane Eisler: I thank you for

the work that you're doing.

793

And I invite you and our

listeners, our viewers to join us.

794

in this campaign for nonviolent families.

795

First of all, of course, we'll have

much more happiness, economically we'll

796

save tons and tons of money, and yes,

there is a link between, and I show this

797

link in my work, between what happens

in families, And what happens in war

798

and terrorism crime you know, it is,

the arm bone is connected to the wrist

799

bone and we have to connect the dots.

800

Liz Childs Kelly: Yes.

801

Yes.

802

And I will make sure that

there's information about

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all of your work in the book.

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In the show notes, I know that

there's this, the partnerism site,

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which sort of breaks out how we can

move more to partnerships systems.

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There's Rhianna's just amassed

an incredible amount of resources

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in addition to her books and all

of her writings, there's so much.

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So I will make sure that I put

all of that in the show notes as

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well as any information about the

Peace Begins at Home campaign.

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And Yeah, I just want to thank all

of you for listening as always.

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It's such a joy to be able to

share these conversations with you.

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And even if I can't see you out

there, I know that it just feels good.

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It feels good to know that

we're in this together.

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We're not alone.

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We are, we are seeking different

ways of moving in the world together.

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So I'm deeply grateful for you too.

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And until next time, I hope you

take such good care of yourselves

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and I'll be with you again soon.

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Home to Her is hosted by me, Liz Kelley.

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You can visit me online at hometoher.

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com, where you can find show

notes and other episodes.

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You can read articles about the

Sacred Feminine, and you'll also

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find a link to join the Home to

Her Facebook group for lots more

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discussion and exploration of Her.

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You can also follow me on Instagram,

at home to her, to keep up to

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date with the latest episodes.

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Thanks so much for joining us

and we'll see you back here soon.