Learning the basics of promoting or controlling the flow of qi  through the Five Phases is an elemental part of every acupuncturist's training . We learn how the antique points can be used to nudge a response or invite a different kind of resonance into a patient's life. 

The Korean Saam acupuncture tradition has been passed down through a lineage of monk/practitioners. It not only uses  "wu xing" elemental qi transfer, but additionally blends it together with the the six confirmations, yin/yang organ resonance, the yi jing, and constitutional body types.

If you think that acupuncture done well is transformative, but if less skillfully applied will simply do nothing, then you'll want to listen in to this conversation and hear how our guest really took someone off the rails with four thin needles. 

Powerful things can happen with this style of acupuncture and correct diagnosis is essential. Listen in and get the basics on how to begin learning this powerful method that will not only help you to help your patients, but help you better connect up what seemed like different theoretical perspectives.

Head on over to the show notes page for more information about this episode and for links to the resources discussed in the interview. 

The medicine of east Asia is based on a science that does not

hold itself separate from the phenomenon that it seeks to understand our

medicine did not grow out of Petri dish, experimentation, or double blind studies.

It arose from observing nature and our part in it east Asian medicine evolves not

from the examination of dead structures, but rather from living systems with their

complex mutually entangled interactions.

Welcome to qiological.

I'm Michael max, the host of this podcast that goes in depth on issues,

pertinent to practitioners and.

Of east Asian medicine, dialogue and discussion have always been elemental to

Chinese and other east Asian medicines.

Listen into these conversations with experienced practitioners that go deep

into how this ancient medicine is alive and unfolding in the modern clinic.

When I first got to.

I was in a hurry in a hurry to learn Chinese, to learn medicine in a hurry

to well, you know, get somewhere.

And from that first week, I kept hearing people use the phrase in

Chinese, man, mind lie, take your time.

Dang it.

I didn't have time to take it easy.

I had things to do going slow and taking it easy.

It didn't seem like a way to achieve my goals sounds familiar doesn't it.

But over time I learned there was more to this Chinese phrase, mine, mine live.

And I realized later on in the show, I'm going to unpack these characters for you

and the real meaning of the phrase, which I think you'll find not only helpful for

yourself, but for your patients as well,

Hi everybody.

Welcome back to qiological.

My guest today is Toby day.

Toby is an acupuncturist with an undergraduate degree in food science,

from the California Polytech state university.

And in 2006, he completed a PhD in classical Chinese

medicine with Jeffery your Gran.

If you're a regular listener to the show, you've already heard

him recently talking a bit about the Chinese nutritional strategies

app, which he's created, and he's sponsored the show with it a few times.

We're not here to talk about that today, although we might touch in on

it later, instead I've invited Toby to join us today on qiological to talk

about som a Korean acupuncture method.

You've heard about som.

Yeah, I didn't think so.

And that's why I've got Toby with me today.

Toby.

Welcome to qiological you so much for having me, Michael,

I'm really psyched about this.

I'm psych about all my interviews, but I'm particularly interested in

this one because I heard about som acupuncture via a friend of mine that

has spent a lot of time studying in Taiwan and he's been to Korea a lot

and he's just kind of one of these, uh, traveling roving scholar kinds of.

So I've had a little bit of exposure to it, but I've never met anybody.

Who's actually studied it or does it, so I'm curious to begin

here with your introduction.

How did you come across this particular method?

Um, I was traveling in Southeast Asia and really sick.

I know you guys can't see me right now, but I'm six foot four, 190.

And that was about one 50 at that point.

I don't mind.

Yeah, just really sick.

And, uh, so I, um, at that point I had no understanding about Chinese

medicine or acupuncture or anything.

And, um, I met a monk and, uh, we traveled together for a few weeks and he kept

saying to me, well, you're not doing so well, you know, let me help you.

And, uh, my background at that point was all science.

My grandfather was a medical doctor, you know, so I, you know, putting needles

in me, I've been thinking of doing.

Right.

So anyways, uh, he was so nice, such a nice man that, uh, at some point

I thought that's not going to do me any help, but, uh, you know, this

will make him feel better if I've never let him give me acupuncture.

And

you're a compassionate man,

but I thought, well, you know, this would be good for him.

So, uh, he gave me.

I got up, um, from that treatment and they had a full meal in three desserts and

it had been about three or four months.

I hadn't really been able to eat anything.

Wait

a minute.

So you got up from that treatment.

It wasn't like you had a night's sleep.

You had a day or two, you got up and you started eating

immediately.

Wow.

So the, you know, my mind switched pretty quickly from this is some kind of.

You have to believe in it kind of thing too.

Like, whoa, that's a very powerful just for needles, right?

Just

four needles.

What the heck is that?

Right.

So basically you were, you know, a lot of people have stories similar to this.

They got sick in some way, but you're the first person I've talked to that

learned something from a traveling monk.

Where did he learn it?

Do you know?

I mean, well actually let me back up for a moment.

Is he the one who taught you this stuff?

Yes.

Yes.

Okay.

Tell us a bit about where this som acupuncture comes from.

Where did he learn it and where does you know, how do we trace this backward?

What's the linear chair,

right?

So, um, so, um, is he is the, uh, he he's a Korean Buddhist monk and

he was a traveling monk and part of his, um, meditation attainment.

He, you know, sometimes things come along for the ride, but the meditation

attainments, he got a deep insight into.

So then he just started performing acupuncture.

It is about 400 years ago in Korea, so we don't know the

details, but then his followers started recording his treatments.

And, uh, now we have that texts now, um, the 400 year old

ex this is not the first time that there's been some sort

of a master who didn't really write stuff down, but his, his students do.

Right.

I mean, he was a wandering monk, uh, just a ball and ropes,

you know, no monastery, even.

So, you know, he was just doing this thing in

the forest.

So he had some sort of insight, something came through for him while

meditating, he's got a system back acupuncture that, that came through.

That's been transmitted.

Tell us a bit about this system.

How's it different than the stuff that we learned in school?

You know what I mean?

Background and TCM because, you know, that's, that's what you need to get to

walk through the gate of medicine here.

How's this stuff different,

right?

I mean, it's based on all of the theories that we know, um, in young

five element, uh, six confirmations, it just combines it in a really unique way.

It's based all on the classic text itself.

It's not like he had a, really something outside of the classic text.

It just the combination, how you put everything

together.

Can you walk us through a case so that we can get a sense of how you're

looking at somebody, how you're diagnosing and how that actually

translates into the points that are.

Sure.

Yeah.

I mean, I haven't really like, um, maybe your listeners to consider using

this at some point, uh, you know, for a case it is, I mean, a lot of the

theoretical thing is, is, is complicated, but the actual points of Lexington

south is pretty straightforward.

So, um, I was thinking about this yesterday, when, when I knew we were going

to be talking and yesterday I had a case ladder channel stagnation due to cold.

Very common thing.

Right.

Taiyang cold.

Yeah.

Super common.

Right.

Um, and so, uh, so for this technique, um, I'm trying to think about it

best way to approach this one.

Uh, clearly, so.

It this the second pairs, uh, Oregon's differently than we usually do.

This is from, I believe it's chapter 24 on the SU when, where they

apparently Oregon's where their pair, the six confirmations together.

And so for Taiyang they can have a pair of ShaoYin,

right?

Yes.

You're familiar with

the, uh, the tradition that a functional Lewin and Dr.

Hershey shoe.

Yeah, there, there, there are some other people that really look at

this six confirmation thing and, and talk about the same thing.

That's, that's really fascinating.

So tell us more about this pairing of the Taiyang in the shop.

Right.

So, so this, um, so this parent is urinary bladder and heart,

which we usually don't ever, uh, pair, but it makes a lot of sense.

So for this system, uh, urinary bladder is obviously a water element and

Taiyang which, which is associated with.

So urinary bladder, but this system we always think about

as just really icy cold water.

And then it's paired with heart, which is fire, obviously, which

we know in ShaoYin, which is fire.

So it may, you know, when you, when you stop and think about it is

the obvious pairing that we don't.

It

is obvious.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, we just, we don't, we don't usually think about that

as a pairing a bladder and heart.

So anyways, so this case, it was, I diagnosed her as having icy cold, uh,

uh, stagnation in the bladder trajectory.

And so I used shaoyang, uh, heart.

I turned to fight the heart and, um, uh, to counteract that call,

you know, to put fire plus fire into the icy cold situation.

So.

As usual, you know, when it's a real clear case like that it's very successful.

So she was in severe pain and then just within a few moments of the treatment, uh,

complete release and, uh, and just smile.

So what was her problem?

Like I

said, but not like a gallbladder down the sides had cut by

the more, uh, you know, bladder channel at that down the back of the, uh,

got it.

Okay.

That's a pretty common thing.

I think a lot of us see that, I mean all the time, right.

Yes.

And so, uh, I was thinking about for your listeners, you know,

we always have our usual ways.

We like to treat that, uh, you know, two or three things that we usually do.

So I was hoping you listen, as we consider in the future, you know,

if their normal methods don't work or aren't as satisfactory that they

could consider something like, or if you're just curious

and you want to try something new.

Right.

That's true.

Yeah.

If you're really adventurous then,

so I'm familiar with this idea when I'm thinking about urban myth.

All right.

And there's, there's, there's a lot of, you know, there's things like a mile

long food, sushi tongue, you know, you might use that for a situation like this,

but, but we're not talking herbs here.

We're talking acupuncture.

So when you say that you tonified the heart to bring some fire into the urinary

bladder, what points were you using?

How do you, how does that actually fall out as an acupuncture practice?

Yeah,

that's a, that's a great, uh, yeah, I definitely want to

get to that, but it's interesting that you brought up herbs.

Yeah.

I think of this as like really extreme herbs, uh, treatment, you know,

we have like all our harmonizing formulas and things like that, but

this is really, I mean, between, um, heart and urinary bladder.

Uh, is this shirt out or is it food to, you know, it's not like you

you're really going all in with this treatment, so you want to really want

to make sure you diagnose properly.

So yeah.

So this point combinations is a strong point combination.

So it's heart three heart, nine kidney 10 and liver one.

And we take the opposite side of wherever the pain is.

Okay.

Just one second.

Okay.

This is all on one side.

All these needles.

And is there any particular order that they go in a top to bottom?

What's easy enough.

So kidney three.

Oh man.

I'm going to show my ignorance here.

That is the, um, I'm just trying to think five element correspondences.

It's the, uh,

it's keeping 10.

No, but I was thinking the heart

three.

Oh, Hart three.

Yes.

Three is, uh, do you want me to struggle on it or do you want me

to tell you?

No.

No.

I want you to tell me, cause I'm totally not coming up with it at the moment.

So it's

the water point on the heart channel?

It's the w okay.

That makes sense.

And then kidney tan is the water point.

No, it's the earth.

No wetter kidney 10 is the water point.

Then let's talk us all through this.

Think about it and I'll talk us through it.

So hard three it's a water point, right?

So for her three, we would drain it because that's the check on that on the

heart channel, in the heart channel.

That's the water point on the fire?

So we drain that.

And then we go to heart nine, which is the wood point on the fire channel

and we would notify and then, and then down the leg, kidney 10, again,

we drain and then liver one, we,

okay.

Wow.

It's all in.

Yeah, it is.

Yeah.

I mean, there's no messing around with us.

Right.

I always think about it like.

Uh, I'm not a gambler, but I was thinking about like in the movies where

they take all the chips and put them out for, and that's the system, you

know, that's, that's their approach, you know, it's, it's a, food's a

for sure or a shirt out for sure.

You know, that, that's what we're putting into the system.

This is so helpful to be able to know when we're

dealing with a situation that is.

You know, isn't all in situation because in those kinds of situations, number one,

usually we're a little bit nervous, right?

Cause it's like, well, if have this dialed in, I'm really going to help them.

And if I don't have a dialed in, oops.

Right, right.

And I think it's really useful to, as a clinician.

To be able to take that very, very strong, that very directed

it's like, here's what I'm seeing.

And I'm going to treat just that.

There's no side, you know, there's no training wheels on this thing either

it's going to work and they're going to get better or it's not going to work

in, they're probably going to get worse.

Uh, yes, especially when I was first learning the system,

uh, you know, I made some states and it's very clear, uh, like with herbal

medicine too, you know, if you go over a strong formula and you make a mistake,

it's a very obvious you've made it.

But also, it's very obvious if you're on the right track, you know, usually within,

within five minutes or so there's definite

change.

Do you find that if you wow.

Within five minutes?

Okay.

So how long did the needle Stan?

Uh, Usually

20 minutes.

So is it possible that you could start a treatment and recognize that oh, Nope.

Wrong direction and course correct.

In the middle?

Yes.

If everything goes really bad right away, uh, you would take out those

needles and then put in a urinary bladder plus, uh, you know, urinary

bladder tone if I get vacation four points and that would counteract that.

So isn't it.

It's got some built in safety.

You.

When you do, tonification in sedation with this.

And it sounds like that aspect is really, really important.

How do you tonify and how do you disperse?

What's the, what's the protocol for that?

How do you do that with this system?

Well, I mean like we've been talking about, uh, for certification

is, is from a chapter 69 in Nanjing, uh, you know, to tonify the mother.

And then, um, for sedation is we sedate the.

Okay.

So it's not so much about needle technique as it is antique point correspondence.

Well, yeah, all

of that.

Right.

So also on each, each point, you know, like we were talking about before for

the heart heart three, we would go against the channel sedating technique,

but leave the needle and leave the point open when you take it out.

Yeah.

And so, uh, this is important point though.

So mostly, I, I mean, it's possible for that kit for that.

With that cold, we could have sedated the urinary bladder rather

than towing to find the heart.

But it's, it's a, win-win every 205 the heart, because, and we're

just adding more to the system.

It, I keep it more for like emergency cases or really severe cases where we

actually drain one of the channels.

I usually use the, the counterbalancing channel and a.

Okay.

Are there any books on this?

Uh, yes, there's a translation at the some tax.

Um, but it doesn't, it jumps right into the combination.

So we're, we're, we're kind of talking about the kindergarten level of this

one, you know, uh, where we take the four points and do exactly what's right.

But some is himself in the text.

He breaks these apart and combines them.

Uh, So the text that's available is really good text, but it jumps right

into college level combinations.

And mostly what I use.

And now I've been using this 15 years is the basic level.

Uh, I do combine sometimes, but the basic level itself is

there's plenty of power for

me.

Let's go into the basics again a bit, because in some ways this sounds

pretty simple, but it's easy to get confused and I'd have to say.

I mean, I get it with tonify tonify the mother and use of date, the,

uh, you know, you use the control point, so to speak just to sedate.

I mean, I get that, it's one thing to have that theory in my head.

It's another thing to like really take it and dial it into the points.

Right.

Let's let's take another case and walk through it together.

Because my suspicion is a lot of listeners are following along and going.

Yep.

That theory makes sense now, how do I do that?

Right?

Yeah.

So how about another case maybe a, you know, something common

that, that people see in clinic?

Like, uh, I don't know, allergies allergic rhinitis, right.

Um, so yeah, the system.

Yeah, it does that really pretty well.

Um, And especially, that's a good way to talk about, let's talk about

another pairing and then we'll, we'll talk about using allergies for that.

So pairing also from, I believe it's chapter 24, um, is, um,

the pair of TaiYin and young men

TaiYin and Yangming right.

So w

we'll we'll we'll look at the lung large intestine pairing.

So, so TaiYin we know is, has to do with.

Moisture.

Right.

And, um, and lung is metal.

So it, which has to do with dryness.

So it's a really nice combination for wet dry problems that we

come right across sometimes.

And then the stomach, which is Yangming, which has to do with dryness and its

earth, which has to do with dampness.

So again, it's, it's a, it's a wet, dry, wet, dry combination.

So a lot of times for allergies, if I have a patient that's really thin, meaning that

they're really dry on the inside, really independency with a loving, with a lot of

dampness congestion and things like that.

Then I use these.

And how would that work with the tonification and, and dispersal?

Right.

So for a case where there's really thin dryness on the inside and moisture on

the outside, I would use lung and for a case where someone's really heavy

and like a whole bunch of dryness, like, especially like dry congestion,

uh, dry cough, things like that.

Then I used stomach for that.

So let's, let's take that last one that you just talked about,

where, where there's that dryness.

I got that cough.

What would those points look like?

How would you needle that more?

Not so again,

so we would use, um, we have toned stomach and we

would use small intestine, five stomach, 41, uh, 43, and gallbladder

for.

Okay.

I'm thoroughly confused.

Why each one of these, because

again, we're going to a of five, uh, mother and, uh, and we're

going to, in this case also, it's a vape.

It's been a check on that,

on this stomach chamber.

Okay.

So the mother here is,

so the mother earth.

I'm just a condition, Michael.

So mostly I don't, I don't, uh, when I'm with the patient, right.

I don't think okay.

Was the mother of this, right.

So it really, at this stop in the textbook, think about this.

So small intestine five, right.

Is Firepoint on fire channel.

Okay.

Got it.

Right.

And then like everything we did before, uh, two, then,

uh, then we sedate the wood.

So on the gallbladder.

And then sedate, that would point on the earth channel, uh,

the stomach point and then 25.

They totally buy that, that fiber point on the earth channel Stanford on the

earth channel stomach 41.

Okay.

So thank you for letting me run you through the, uh, the pace is like this.

I, you know, as a clinician, I also don't often stop to think about these things.

And if I do stop to think.

I mean, it really kind of gets in the way of the practice in a way.

So I suspect this is a little bit like learning to play music and playing scales

as a way of learning to play music.

Right.

Cause at this point I, it seems to me like you're in clinic, you see

it, you diagnose it and you go, okay.

Bang these points.

Yeah.

I think that that's, that's definitely.

I think, I think that's a, that's a great thing.

Uh, you know, I just see these patients and then my needle

finger gets itchy right.

For the previous point.

So,

because you've got enough experience to, uh, to

know which ones to use that way.

So would you say that for anyone who would like to become facile with this and have.

Needlefingers be able to get itchy in the right way as well.

We should probably really know our antique point correspondences.

Just dead cold.

Yeah.

I mean,

you, you don't want to, you don't want to be thinking

about these in the treatment room.

Uh, when, when I first started, I actually, I had a list of

these, all the points and, uh, so I would kinda cloud a Stein.

When you look at them, when I was in the treatment.

Room the big, because I mean, the reason that you really want to focus

on the actual diagnosis, and then once you already have the actual

diagnosis, then like I was saying before my hand just gets itchy.

I just put these points in now it's been 15 years of doing, using the system.

So, um, yeah.

I mean, anything you can do to free your mind up for the diagnosis and

then the treatment just lose from that.

I mean, having a cheat sheet is not a bad idea.

I can remember.

During that early on in my acupuncture career, I had a clipboard with a

couple of little cheat sheet charts that were underneath my notes.

So I could just like, you know, lift up my clinic notes at any point.

And let him take a quick look.

Oh yeah.

Right.

It's that one, right?

What's opposite the clock of large intestines.

Yeah.

Oh yeah.

All right.

All right.

Yeah.

That one with this allergies scenario, would you treat just one side of.

What would you go for both?

Yeah,

I mean, so the general heuristic for this is if it's

a severe case, you can do both.

Usually I start with just one side and, uh, for males on the

left and females on the right.

It's not that many needles, is it?

No,

but then there's some doozies, you know, we ended up

with a lot of judging well points.

So my patients know to an expected.

Sometimes a little bit discomfort, but it's really worth it

for just a quick reaction.

Um, you know, especially pain, syndromes, or even allergies or something like that.

It often shifts really

quickly.

Do you ever add other sorts of ancillary points to help with something or you

just, you know, you're kind of like a Jing fond doctor, you know, it's like

I'm using the original formula and there's no, there's no modification.

No, definitely like I was telling you before, um, in self,

uh, recommend a lot of like, really complicated combinations, but, but

a lot of times I'll do the same.

Right.

You know, I'll, I'll just add, you know, TCM points to these.

Oftentimes you don't need them, but every once in a while, you

know, if I take one side on the.

And, uh, you know, I don't want to do another full four points and the

other side I'll add, like I like Ford or a headache or something like that.

So it's definitely compatible to do a little bit more.

I hope you've been enjoying this conversation with.

I got to tell you, I've been working on this som acupuncture system myself

and I find myself falling back on the memory of listening to all those

Taiwanese friends telling me my mind lie.

Let me break this phrase down for you.

Mine that's pronounced with a fourth falling tone.

It means slow, double up the word Mon mine.

It means like really slow lie.

Second tone.

That means to arrive my mind, like literally.

Slowly slowly arrive.

When I first heard this phrase, I thought it meant don't care so much or be lax.

I was wrong.

It means none of the errors slowly, slowly arrived means take

your time and keep your focus.

Be attentive to what you're working on.

Move slowly.

To have a full experience.

It means keep moving in the direction that you want to go and keep putting

yourself in front of what you want.

My mind lied means things don't come to fruition in 21 days or your money

back like the internet promises.

It means that experience ripens over time.

It takes seasons maybe even years to unfold.

Anything of value, man lies slowly, slowly arrive.

It means keep moving toward your goal and eventually it will arise to meet.

It might even mow you down.

I've been myself into this som acupuncture stuff.

Toby's article was really helpful and you'll find it over on the show notes

page, but I'm a slow learner and I've had to rely on the occasional phone call with

him to straighten out my clinical thinking with using the som acupuncture system.

It occurred to me that the questions I've had about som might

be questions that you'd have to.

So recently I phoned him up, turned on the microphone and rolled some tape.

We did a part two, and it really gets into some of the intricacies and

ways of thinking about the clinical application of som acupuncture.

Oh, one more thing at the end of today's conversation, there's a little taste

to Toby's brilliance and part two.

All right.

Let's get back to the rest of today's conversation.

Okay.

I like that.

It's just four needles.

I mean, even if they're uncomfortable needles, I mean

four needles, bang, bang, bang.

Yeah.

I mean, it's pretty straight forward.

Like I said, I, I put all my effort into diagnosis and then, um, and then yeah,

then the treatment plant just slow.

So that's really nice.

Yeah.

Well, you know, it's true.

It's so true.

Isn't it?

That if we've got our diagnosis down often, we don't have to think

much about treatment because that, I mean, that just naturally arises.

It's like asking a really good question.

Certain kinds of answers just come around.

Yes.

Talk to us a little bit about how you do your diagnosis.

I

think my diagnosis got a lot more clear, uh, using the system.

I do diagnosis like everyone else, uh, wholesome tongue, uh, I practice

in the, um, the ShaoYin hammer posts, uh, system, but, but it

really, I mean, it really makes you.

We show up at their diagnosis, because like I said, if you choose hot and the

patients called immediately, you're going to have a whole bunch of problems.

So it really sharpens up.

My a lot of times, you know, we use like a TCM system.

We can really, you know, go for a balancing treatment or

harmonizing or something like that.

Um, you know, you just kind of let the body do whatever it

wants and you, you put a little.

This system is really like I was saying before you put all

the chips in for your bat.

So it's really made my diagnosis.

Uh, yeah, I put, I put a huge amount of making sure that that's right before I

put the needles in.

And it sounds like you're basically using an eight parameters kind of diagnosis.

Is it hot?

Is it cold?

Is it interior as that exterior?

Is it wet?

Is it dry?

Yeah,

absolutely.

But sometimes, you know, you know, we give like a little nod to the parameters,

but this one, I mean, you definitely have to decide, is it, is it internal?

Is it external?

But like we were talking before about that for the allergies

about the stomach channel, right.

We have to really decide is it, is that damn this insight or is that, or, and

it's trying to something outside then only then can we use the stomach channel?

How would you differentiate.

Dampness on the inside versus dampness on the outside.

What does that look like in a, in a patient who walks in, what,

how would they look different?

Right.

I mean, so that, that's a great question.

One of the, um, the easiest way is if someone's overweight,

we always think about damping.

This on means.

And then I look at the skin at a really check the skin a lot to see

what the quality of the skin is, and then ask people, you know, use a lot

of moisturizers, things like that.

So less times you can cover up really dry skin with like high quality

moisturizer or something like that.

So I always pal pay and then also ask.

So for that case, you know, Denton is on the inside and dryness on

the outside would be a no BS.

With like really dry, flaky skin.

That would be the most clearest indication for that.

All

right.

That'd be like the exemplary person for that.

Yes.

And then the opposite of them would be skinny.

Yes, and then really oily skin.

Right?

So once I started diagnosing like this, I realized that all

these clues are out there for us.

But, you know, like before using the system, I never really paid

that close attention to the skin.

But now, you know, just at a glance, you can see if someone has really oily skin.

Sometimes they come in textbook, you know, bone thin and, you know, oily

skin with acne and everything like that.

You know, like I said, that my needle finger gets.

Oh, my

goodness share.

That would be like, uh, oh good.

That's easy textbook example.

Here we go.

You know, everyone, you know what?

It happens.

So rarely for me, maybe I'm just not paying attention, but when something

really textbook shows up, my first question is, what am I missing here?

It's easy to second guess Toby, what are some other kinds of things

that maybe you used to not pay so much attention to, but because.

You're you've really worked on your diagnosis because you've really learned

the look and make these distinctions.

What are some things that in the past you might not have noticed that

these days they just stand right.

Yeah.

I mean, a lot of what we've been talking about, you know, the young parents.

So I really, one of the main diagnosis I try and make it pay attention to

when the patient first come in is how like passive or aggressive they are.

And that's an important differentiation for the system

to, you know, are they real meek?

Are they, you know, really aggressive?

And then we had to be really careful too, because a lot of people, if they're

meek, they try and puff themselves up to look a little aggressive and

sometimes really aggressive people.

You know, especially when you first meet them, they really covered it up.

So I think my ability to check if someone's going to be really passive

or really aggressive has gotten much better, even when the patient's trying to

cover a little bit.

What is it that you're looking for that helps you to suss that out?

That's a great question.

I think, you know, uh, body posture tells me.

Yeah, I w I would say the main thing is body posture.

You can kind of fake your body posture for a minute or two, but then

ultimately, you know, especially when they're, you're interviewing them,

uh, if you pay close attention, the body posture within a minute or two,

you'll start to see flashes of what

the revealing got it.

And this what we'll just call it meek versus gray.

How is that helpful to you in coming up with your diagnosis?

What, uh, what is it that, that.

My, uh, my teacher, the monk, he said, uh, the two,

uh, art types to these is like the librarian and Mike Tyson.

So there's the two obvious ones.

Right.

So I'm always trying to see, you know, are you fitting the

librarian or the Mike Tyson?

So that really lets me know about.

This for Chinese, uh, excuse me, for Virginia for this system, the

pericardium has to do with that, that really passive librarian energy and

in the gallbladder of course, has to do with the Mike Tyson energy.

So a lot of times I'm trying to decide which one of those, some tape.

And so here we are with another of the great pairings, right?

The JueYin with

the ShaoYin, it's such an obvious pairing to me, but

before I learned the system I did, and it never came up this time.

In my

experience.

And, and yet, so often in clinic, even with TCM, we see people treating

tree in shaoyang all the time.

Right?

I mean, it's one of the reasons why things like shaoyang sawn ours is so popular.

Right.

And it's

just nice to work in such an explicit system, right.

That clearly states why those, why those two are paired.

I love this.

The librarian.

Yeah.

Versus Mike Tyson sort of, uh, image that's that's really good.

Have you got some other images that you use for like, you know, I mean, let's say

the a Taiyang in a Shailene situation.

I mean, that's, you know, I guess that's fire and ice, isn't it right.

Any, anything else come to mind besides the fire and ice,

or we just leave it at that.

So, you know, it sounds like lyrics to a great song.

It doesn't like that.

Yeah.

So, I mean, like you were saying before, it's just all union pairings, so wet, dry.

Ah, cold internal, external, all these kinds of things.

So I have w or like ideas in my mind, but the images for sure, that librarian

and the Mike Tyson, that's pretty

clear in my mind.

That's, that's a good one.

And, and how do you see these emotional factors playing out in treatment, playing

out in a, in a patient's situation, in their, uh, and, and in how they impact.

Yeah.

I mean, that's a good question.

A lot of times, you know, how I recommend certain things to patients, right.

Then based on if I'm explaining it to the library and right.

I get it, like, you know, all that reference texts and why you should

do this kind of thing, you know why you should make that recommendation.

And then Mike Tyson, usually I had to kind of like go in through the

side door when I'd make any kind of recommendations for Mike Tyson.

Right.

Uh, I got, uh, uh, that, that type of patient, I have to make them think it's.

They think that they come up with that, their idea to make a dietary

change or something like that.

So, um, I think, yeah, having that diagnosis is really

helpful for how you, um, how you present things to the patients.

. Michael Max: So you've been doing

Yes.

And, and you learned it from this wandering monk?

Yes.

Yeah.

Okay.

So this is this wandering monks, still teaching people.

I mean, if somebody wanted to learn more about this.

How would they go about it?

Yeah, that's a great question.

My, uh, my, my teacher at the monk, he taught me, I met him

in, uh, like I was saying before.

Northern means.

And, um, then I, you know, I did some training with him in Korea and then he's

come to I'm up in Northern California is coming to visit me a couple of

times, saw patients with me in clinic.

It was so great.

So great answering every one of my questions.

And a couple of years ago he stopped talking to me completely.

Oh yeah.

As a, for him that this is a high compliment.

He felt like.

I understood the medicine and I was in a great shape.

So he wouldn't discuss it with me anymore.

I didn't agree with this assessment, you know, I feel like I'm just

still like a struggling, uh, don't understand a medicine better.

So, uh, he cut off all contact and you won't answer any questions

any more or anything like that.

So I guess supposedly this is a high compliment, but,

uh, I'm not so sure about it.

Well, that's a really traditional kind of thing.

Isn't it?

Okay.

Don't you usually get thrown out of the monastery once you're at

a certain level of understanding.

Yeah.

Maybe, but I don't feel like I've reached any level

of understanding, you know?

Uh, so I think my, my teacher may have made an error in that.

Well, there, there is a possibility, there's something else that

I've heard that goes something like this.

If you really want to know something and learn it and understand it.

Then teach it to someone

else.

Uh, yeah, I think that's true.

So are you doing any teaching a little bit, a little bit, not too much a

formal teaching, but yeah, I mean, I was so happy that you, uh, asked

me to come on the program because I really, it's not a very well known

system, but I think it's a good system.

And then, so I'm eager for people to.

To endure to try it out.

Recently, I wrote a article in the journal of Chinese medicine and the current issue.

And, uh, this is spelled out in a lot more

detail.

Aha.

So for those of you that are listening, this would be a really great place

to start is to read Toby's article.

Would it be possible to get a reprint of that, that we could put on the show

notes page so people could, uh, could read that or do they need to go to the

journal of Chinese medicine to get it?

Do you know.

Sure.

You

know?

Um, I don't, I don't know right now, but I could ask the journal Chinese medicine.

They're really great about reprinting articles and things like that.

So I don't see why not if they are okay with it.

And then for sure, we'll just put it in the show notes.

That'd be great.

For myself, I really want to read this.

And I'm so struck in talking with you how this fits in with a lot of this six level

confirmation stuff that I've been looking at lately that I thought was really only

in the herbal tradition, but clearly with this form of acupuncture, it's, it's

embedded in the acupuncture traditional.

Yeah, and I do a lot of herbs myself too.

So it's really nice to have a system of diagnosis for both.

Right.

You know, once you've diagnosed and, and it's just clear what to do with

acupuncture, it's clear what to do with

our, having a sense of clarity in the clinic is such a delight.

You know?

I mean, I think we all work long and hard to gain that.

Yes.

Anything that can help in the clinic.

Uh I'm all

for it.

Yeah.

In terms of, I mean, you were saying this is really good stuff for pain.

Is, are there any other conditions that you think this style of

acupuncture is particularly useful for?

You know, um, I use the system for like 90% of what I do the

10% is when I'm just not sure, you know, I don't feel competent enough with the

diagnosis to go all in, but it's really, it's, it's pretty good for everything.

As long as it needs a strong.

Treatment, uh, mental stuff, emotional stuff, physical pain and things like that.

It's pretty effective.

And like I was telling you before pretty

quickly too.

So for those of us that think, oh yeah, acupuncture, it's just kind

of harmonizing and regulating.

You can't really take people down too bad of a road.

It sounds like you would disagree.

Yeah.

I, unfortunately I know from personal experience, you

know, if you, if you diagnose incorrectly any, you take off the.

And you really taught about the mother of the wrong idea.

You you're in, you're in bad shape quickly.

Like I said, it's nice because you have the safety mechanism, you can take the

other channel, the other, uh, you have the opposite channel, that balancing

channel to correct that really quickly.

But yeah, it's unpleasant for the patient when you make that kind of mistake.

I suspect it's even more unpleasant if you continue

to make a mistake, but don't realize that you're doing it.

Raymond.

It's so obvious in the safest, so obvious, uh, uh, it's unmistakable when,

when you've gone in the wrong direction

I'm taking, I'm actually taking that as good news.

Yeah.

It's really clear.

It's like herbal medicine too.

You know, if you kind of do a weak herbal

formula, you have no idea what.

Yeah, it's sorta working,

but maybe not working or something like that.

Whereas he thinking of a high dose foods, uh, you know, something's going to happen.

Right.

So it's going to have a really good, or, you know, maybe somebody really

bad, but for sure you'll know.

Is your idea correctly?

That's right.

Toby.

Is there anything else that you'd like to share with us about this

particular stream of acupuncture?

Um, I think people just to try it, I like, I like people to experiment

with that a little bit in there.

Uh, like I said before, especially, you know, you have something that's

not responding normally to usual treatments, then consider this

as trying something different.

And like you suggested to the be really adventurous practitioners out there.

Yeah.

I mean, th maybe try it as soon as you listen to this, try this.

Hopefully we can have the, um, the article and the downloads and you,

and you can look at them and you can look at everything in the article.

Everything's really well laid out.

Great.

Really looking forward to that.

And, you know, speaking of things that are clear and helpful, you're a

nutritional strategies app is pretty cool.

I'm glad you like that.

Even though Toby has been a sponsor here, this is not an

advertisement for the app, but I do want to talk about it for just a couple of

minutes, because I I'm curious to know.

I mean, I know you've got this background in nutrition and all that, but whatever

prompted you to take all of the.

Particular knowledge and turn it into something that fits on your.

Right.

So I heard about this after I did it, but one of the best ways to come up with

something is to scratch your own itch.

And so I, I was always interested in nutrition, like say from my background

and, but it was so frustrated, like Western nutrition, it's not personalized.

It's not dialed in very well.

You know, we just look at like the macro nutrients and then combinations of those.

And so when, when I came across the Chinese medicine system, The

individual diagnosis for the patient.

And then each food has its individual qualities.

I was like fascinated with it.

And, uh, so it was so hard there because the information was in lot of different

books and some of it was incomplete.

Some of it was different.

And so for my own use, I compiled everything all together in one spot.

And then, um, and then, you know, I, I met a great app developer, so basically I

kind of made this app for myself and then.

You know, it's just been great.

A lot of other practitioners that ever really got a lot of yeah.

It's um, yeah.

I, I also love that phrase.

Scratch your own itch.

It, it can take us down some really interesting trails and can be helpful to,

you know, other practitioners as well.

I know that it's really fun for me.

I, in fact, I just used it yesterday.

I've got, I've got this patient who is.

Very blood deficient and very anxious and wound up, partly because

of circumstances in her life.

And partly because she's, well, you know, blood deficient, right.

And she works out every day.

Right.

And I, and I tried to get her to take her herbs, but, well, that's too inconvenient

to put some powder in some water.

So I was thinking about.

I wonder if I could just get her to eat.

Right.

I ask her about what she's eating and she's actually not eating that much

smoothies and stuff like that salads.

And I'm thinking, God, if I could just get her to like, to shout out on

a burger every now and then, or tuck into a steak, that would be great.

Yeah.

So I actually pulled out that nutritional app and put in blood deficiency and.

Things that I saw going on with her, some inefficiency as well.

And, uh, it was just like, you know what?

I sent her home with this piece of paper.

I just said, I'd like to see you eat more.

I don't care what you eat, but try to make it things off this part of

the list and just leave it at that.

Right.

Yeah.

I mean, yeah, it's nice because yeah, you can, you can, the patient

can leave with something, write a list of things that you recommend.

And then also the nice thing about the app that will tell

patients and what not to eat too.

So that, that comes into play too.

It's been really helpful for my

own clinics.

Well, maybe at some point, we'll see a nice app for.

This acupuncture that you're doing.

That's a good idea.

Just, uh, just, just a little food for thought.

Great.

Well, Toby, I, I so appreciate you taking the time today and,

uh, this som acupuncture, like I said, I didn't know much about it.

I just had kind of heard some things you really caught my

attention with in particular.

How using this system is going to make your diagnosis skills get better.

Yeah.

Thanks so much, Michael, for the opportunity

to talk about it.

Hey friends, I hope you've enjoyed this discussion of som acupuncture.

It's pretty interesting stuff.

I promised you a little taste of what you get in part two with Toby.

Check out this riff on the sand gel.

So a lot of times, if I'm I have a patient that's really.

Not very self-aware, especially my teacher really pointed out, not very polite,

especially if the person is not really polite, doesn't do really social norms.

They really need to, you really need to supplement the son, Joe energy in that

case, because that will really help them with that inner concentration.

Wait, wait, when you supplement this tangible energy

yes.

For that, uh, impolite

unaware person, because they're not looking out.

They're not looking inward.

The liver energy is the inner

cool energy.

So I'm confused here.

If they don't have enough inward cool energy going, why would you supplement

Dishon jaw when she supplemented?

No, if you want someone to be polite, we would supplement the San Jo

really?

Okay.

I'm this is great.

I'm totally confused.

Explain how that works.

Uh, this one has to do with like that piercing concentration

aspect that people, especially people that are impolite, not very

socially aware, socially aware of.

So my art type for the sawn genotype is the opposite of a monk.

Someone really socially unaware, no social graces, like knocking

things over, just really unaware.

Got it.

Okay.

Does that make sense?

It does.

Now it's

a different way of looking at this totally different lens.

So, you know, you have to kind of put away usually, Hey, you think

about the sun jour, the liver, and usually they're not pair right.