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Last Updated: September 2, 2024

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085: What military wives should know in the event that they've had a breakdown in their relationship and military family law with Lorna Rhoades & Katie Carter

Lorna Rhoades (Attorney at Law and Navy Wife) and Katie Carter (Attorney at Law) from the Hofheimer Family Law Firm exclusively work with women in divorce, custody, and support cases in Virginia. Due to their location, they've worked with a lot of military families. Together, they bring awareness to the misinformation and lack of information related to military family law, the purpose of JAG attorneys, the "military ten year myth," empowering women, and much more.

To request a free copy of their military divorce book, “What Every Virginia Military Wife Needs to Know About Divorce" and to get in touch with Lorna and Katie, visit the Hofheimer Family Law Firm site https://hoflaw.com/

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J.A. 0:00

Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the award winning podcast holding down the fort. I am your co host Jenn emos veteran spouse and goldstar daughter. And as always, I have my co host with me who is also the military spouse, active duty mother of two and mental health advocate genuine Stroup. Jalen, welcome back. Hey, thanks

Unknown Speaker 0:18

for having me. Glad to be here today.

J.A. 0:21

Yes. And can I share the exciting announcement of what you and your family is up to?

Unknown Speaker 0:27

Yes, Yes, we are. Sort of semi official,

J.A. 0:31

my official. So yes, I'm really excited because Jenny Lynn and I haven't met in person yet. We've done all this via zoom. I'm sure many people understand that. And spouses in particular can understand that having friends all over. But Jenny Lynn and Matthew are pcsing over to Virginia. So we are excited. I'm excited to just meet I don't know when that'll happen. Of course, I don't like hard dates yet. But I know it's going to happen. And I very much am looking forward to meeting you in person. Practicing social distancing, of course, will probably wear masks when we first meet each other if it gets to that point. But anyway, really excited because today, we have Virginia representing today. So I want to go ahead and introduce you all to some of the incredible guests we have here today. So at the half timer Family Law Firm, we have Attorney at Law, Lorna Rhodes, as well as other Attorney at Law Katie Carter, so Lorna, and Katie, welcome to the show.

Unknown Speaker 1:25

Thanks. Thanks so much for having us.

J.A. 1:27

Speaker 1 4:23

yeah, I think it's one thing to look at these situations when you're talking about a happy marriage. And you know, in Laura's situation, her husband was happy to share this information, right? They're productive marriage, they're great kids are doing, you know, everything's fine. But it's totally different in a situation where you can't really trust your husband. And a big part of it is knowing what you don't know and where to ask the questions. And a lot of that is kind of where we come in our firm. Our website is half law.com. And we offer a free Military Divorce book for active duty, female military service members or spouses and they can kind of clue into a lot of the questions that they should be asking. But we were just hoping today to to kind of explain some of the issues, some of the things we see pop up in the places where there's misinformation or just a lack of information. And we're women sometimes get tripped up. Yeah.

J.A. 5:16

I'm curious to know from Lorna, and maybe even Jenny Lynn, if you want to chime in to this, just what is it about military spouses that they're not given enough information that, you know, they're given second hand information if they're lucky, and you know, learn, or you especially mentioned that in transitioning out of the military, it's like, you were fortunate to know that you had to ask the right questions. But why did you have to get to that point anyway, to begin with? That's a good question. I wonder if it's a reflection on the culture, very finances? I mean, I think it's the service members career, it's his money. But I wish there were more resources for families in the transition period. I don't know if that's something that is military spouses are working on. That's an area where there's a lot of advocacy for it. But I could definitely see there being a need for it. And even if it's just general information, and not particular to your individual spouse, you know, maybe it's not, you know, this is how much he's going to get in retirement specifically, or these are disabilities that he's applying for, but just generally for me, for families, because you're moving potentially, you're getting out of your career and dealing with that stress. It's just not the service member. It's the whole family that is suffering under that stressful situation. Yeah, absolutely genuine, but I get your thoughts.

Speaker 2 6:40

Yeah, I mean, I think that, that what happens at the end of military service is very indicative of what happens kind of throughout because as spouses, everything is volunteer, like, we're not required to show up for anything. And without a requirement there, you're left at the hands of you don't know what you don't know. And so if you're not voluntarily showing up to things and learning the information, you're not going to have that information, you are reliant upon your service member to relay the information for you. I mean, my husband's been in 14 years now. And I am very fortunate that he is a good layer of information, but have seen the effects of not so hot relaying of information in my fellow military spouses. And so, you know, to think that you're going to get to transition and know what to do when you haven't known all along, is, I think it's just indicative of kind of the culture because there is, we are civilians. At the end of the day, we're civilians, and there's no God requirement for us to learn anything about the deity and what they what they want, you know, for our service member and how we're supposed to act with that. So, you know, there are a lot of organizations that have tried to come alongside that, but at this point, they're organizations with good heart, but they are not, again, not mandatory. Hmm.

J.A. 8:02

Yeah, is there I think for you, you may not be able to get the nitty gritty of your spouse's particular situation. But there are standards that, for example, the pension, you can pretty much estimate without seeing the retiree account statement, you can pretty much know what you're going to receive. If you're in a situation where your service member spouse is not communicating information to you and you're struggling to get that information, you're going to probably want to know where to go to get the answers that you need to know financially, where your family will stand in that current moment and going forward. And also to know about maybe issues affecting your health care and your kids custody and visitation in the event that there's a breakdown in the relationship. So that's where we have a lot of information and knowledge. And Katie might be able to speak to whether there's mistakes she sees people make when they first think about what attorney can help them in this type of Yeah, perfect. Well, yeah, let's go ahead and transition into what you to do. I know that we already like kind of jumped into a big hot topic in regards to military spouses and really lacking a lot of information or receiving misinformation. And so Katie, let us know what does the half climber Family Law Firm do?

Speaker 1 9:24

We are a family law firm that represents women exclusively in family law cases. So that includes divorce, custody and support so both child support and spousal support, we don't represent military wives exclusively, but we do just because we're located our main offices in Virginia Beach, but we also have offices in Chesapeake and Newport News. So we see a lot of military families. And that has just sort of meant that you know, we kind of get you know, trial by fire. You see so many of them, you, you pick up all these things, and you start to see general areas where you military spouses aren't really as well informed as civilian spouses might be in similar situations. To give an example, just to jump into something kind of substantive, I would say that I often see women come in and tell me or talk to me, we do monthly divorce seminars, or they'll say something to me, that they have been to the jag attorney, or they're going to go to military legal, that they're going to get advice that way. And I always tell them that although I have seen jag attorneys do things like draft separation agreements, they're really not supposed to a jag attorney, or someone on military legal, is a military attorney. They're not necessarily licensed in Virginia, they theoretically could be licensed in Virginia in the sense that if this was their state of origin, where they passed the bar, and then they were also coincidentally stationed here, it's possible, but even so as a military lawyer, they can't practice in courts in the Commonwealth, they can't take your divorce case and just represent you. That's not what they do. I have seen them draft some agreements, mostly disastrously. So I would just say, if you feel like you've just got to go there and talk to somebody, you know, talk to them, but also verify I talked to a licensed Virginia attorney, talk to someone who practices Family Law exclusively talk to someone who could actually take your case in front of a judge, if that's what has to happen. And at least verify that the information that you're getting is good. Don't sign anything, never sign anything. Without having it reviewed by an attorney. You don't have to hire someone, you don't have to pay a big retainer, just to have somebody look at your document before you sign it. Because once you sign, it's all done. So what you didn't know what you wish you would have known what you didn't understand, it doesn't matter anymore. So take the time upfront to get that information from someone who would know. And don't just trust someone, especially someone like a jag attorney who although they're very smart and have very many wonderful qualifications is just not a family law attorney in Virginia.

Yeah, definitely. Genuine. I saw you nodding. So I thought I thought I would check in with you. there's anything you want to add? Oh, just

I mean, I think that's great advice. I think that sometimes on the military spouse side, we think that because there are Jags available that they're available to us and for us, and really, their job is military law. Their job is not Family Law. They're not intended to be you know, your separation mediator or anything like that. They're there to enforce things for whatever service they're working for. So I mean, I think Katie gave great, great counsel on find somebody else that actually does what you're looking for. Don't rely on what's provided on base, no one can see my air quotes I just realized.

Just so everyone knows, Dewayne had some air quotes. Awesome. Lorna, I just wanted to see if there's anything else you wanted to add as well, in addition to what Katie shared. Yeah, I was just gonna say that when there's a breakdown in a relationship, where one of the spouse is in the military, you have maybe heard that you can speak to the command and get a support order from the command. Or you may have heard that there are things that can be forced upon the service member to do versus seeking relief in a civilian court. And I think that there is a bit of misconception there, in that the military, in my experience, they want to not deal with family matters, they want to stay out of it. And they will defer to a civilian court if the civilian court is handling any of the issues relating to your breakdown in the relationship. So if there's an issue about custody or visitation, if there's an issue that your service member spouse is not supporting you, I would definitely approach your problem first through a traditional attorney and go through the traditional family court system. Because in my experience, you don't get the type of relief that you may think you may get from your spouse's command. If there's abuse, which sometimes happens, unfortunately, in military families, service members, you know, they're on deployments, there's a lot of stress, there's a lot of PTSD that family members are suffering, if there's been a deployment, it's just a very hard life. So their employee advocacy program that I think most bases have, and they're there in conjunction with victim advocates, if there's domestic abuse, so definitely, you know, if you're in a situation or if you know, somebody who's suffering from domestic violence, pursue, again, the traditional family court route, but there is a military route available through the family advocacy program, and that I've seen is a little bit more successful I think in getting help for spouses versus just going straight to a commanding officer and complaining about your spouse. But in general, the military is going to want you to handle your issues through the court system. There are guidelines that exist for service members to support their children and their spouses. And I think that is a good thing. But it's really designed only to apply when there is no court order. And you may not get it, it's really only applicable to enlisted members, officers aren't bound by these guidelines. And it really just depends on the relationship that the service member has with the commanding officer, if there's a good buddy buddy relationship, the commanding officer is probably going to protect the service member, you know, it's case by case different, really caution people before they just go directly to the command and try and get their spouse in trouble. Or to try and get relief from there. I mean, in general, the better course of action is to hire an attorney in your jurisdiction and go get relief from the court system. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think in general, what I'm gathering is that what's provided in the military is more in favor of the service member than it is a spouse, because it's the service member that's working for the military, you know, when I relate that to, let's say, corporate America, you know, if you're working for a company, the benefits go to you doesn't always translate over to the spouse if they're married, of course, there's like health benefits and stuff like that, if you're married and stuff like that, but that's what I'm gathering is like, you know, just being aware that what is provided the military does tend to favor this servicemember more, because they're the ones serving, even though we all know here that military spouse is also serving, but not in the way that the service member is. Right. So that's what I was gathering when you were talking. Yeah. And I think the military has developed a little bit too, you know, in terms of programs, to protect families when there's domestic violence or sexual assault, that those are kind of hot topics. And there's some frameworks in the military to prevent that from happening and to address it, if it does. So I do encourage, you know, if you are somebody or know somebody who's experienced domestic violence, you know, that is a place where you can reach out to a family advocacy, office on base, and they can help you. But as far as everything else goes, in terms of the finances and things like that, I think you're better off going through their traditional court route, rather than trying to go through the command to get support. Yeah, I think you learn so much for sharing that. And I really like this theme that we're having in our conversation about providing the right information, and where to go for military spouses. Is there other information that you feel is important, you know, for military spouses to know?

Yeah, well, I

really just had one more point, which was just that the military 10 year math, I want to address that I keep hearing, I heard it a lot, you know, my been practicing here for almost a decade now. And in the beginning, I used to hear it a lot. That's it, the tenure myth is, if I haven't been married to my husband for 10 years, I'm not entitled to any portion of his military pension. And that is just absolutely not true. I heard it again just about two weeks ago. And I feel like I've done everything I can to dispel this myth, and I am personally offended that it still persists. But that is absolutely 100% not true, you start earning an interest in your husband's military retirement on the day that you get married. So to the extent that your marriage overlaps with his active duty military service, you are earning an interest in his retirement, you earn 50% of what is earned during the course of the marriage. So I mean, that's something that continues to accumulate for as long as you stay married. And as long as he's on active duty in the military. So those two things have to overlap, it doesn't necessarily mean you know, of course, that you're going to get a 50% total benefit to his pension, but you receive 50% of what was earned during the course of the marriage. If you were to, you know, be married for one year of his 20 year career, of course, your portion is going to be very, very small, right, as opposed to if you were married for the full 20 years, and those 20 years overlap, then you're a 20 2020 spouse, then you receive 50% of the pension. But the important thing to keep in mind is that if he's telling you, if you're hearing from him or from someone else, that you're not entitled to this, just because you haven't been married for 10 years, that's not true. The only thing that really matters as far as 10 years less or more of marriage is whether you qualify to receive your portion of the pension paid to you directly from DHS, or whether he's going to get it from DHS, and then he has to turn around and pay your portion. Technically, if you're married less than 10 years, the past doesn't really handle it. But it really doesn't make a difference. Once you're divorced. It's an order for the court, it's enforceable. So if he's monkeying around with your money, if he's paying you late, and he's not paying you at all, then you can show cause him and you can force him to pay that money to you. So regardless of how long you've been married, you have an interest in that pension no matter what he's telling you.

jennylyn you've definitely passed that myth of a threshold. Any thoughts on that? Have you heard of that? Have you heard about that?

Yes, I

don't know that I heard about it referred to as a 10 year rule. But there's always myths circulating about how long for this? And how long for that? And what am I actually entitled to? And what happens if I get remarried? I mean, there's all kinds of things that circle around. So it's great to hear like, the cold hard truth is like, one, you're entitled to it to ask the questions and, you know, take action on on the answers you find. Because Yeah, that information seems to be more myth than than true. like nobody hands you a paper when you get married and goes, Well, here's what you get if, you know, if this doesn't work out, like thanks for signing on the dotted line here. Here's what you get. If you stay married, here's what you get if you don't

be careful about those.

Right? Yeah, there's if the God doesn't hand those out, though, so that you know, like what you're getting when you sign up to marry someone in the military. So it's great to hear like, real, honest answers for that and good sources of information to figure that out? If and when you find yourself in that position, because unfortunately, more than 50% of us do. Yeah,

yeah. Well, the point is just to ask the questions and get the answers so that you can put yourself and your children in as good a position as possible, whether it doesn't matter what the question is, it matters that you're able to find someone who is qualified in your state who can tell you what you're entitled to, and who can help you create a plan to get you from where you are now to where you want to be, which is, you know, happily divorced, and financially independent, and in a position to take care of yourself and your children. And you really can't do that without asking the questions without getting the information. And that doesn't come from relying on, you know, what other people have told you, it comes from going out and getting the information independently from trusted, verifiable sources. So in the case of a divorce from a licensed attorney in the state where you and your husband are living, and keep saying in Virginia, because that's where I am. But this is pretty universally applicable stuff. If you're in Texas, talk to somebody in Texas, if you're in California to talk to somebody in California and just get the information as it relates to your situation, ask those questions, and take care of yourself because nobody else is going to do it for you.

That's like real talk, right there. anything. Anything you want to add to that? No, I think Katie said it really well. And I think if there's been a breakdown, and especially if there's children involved, and if the service member is going to be in the service for a number of years going forward, I think it's also important to be aware that these issues may continue for a long time for you. And you may end up having to deal with multiple states, if you're in that situation. So one example would be if there's children and your military, former spouse now relocates due to PCs orders, you, as the former spouse with the child have to go with him, or what happens to the kids with the custody and visitation situation? You know, and it's on a case by case basis. But you know, the court is going to make decisions, not the military. And that's something that you need to be aware of. So just because he's PCs is due to military orders doesn't mean that he's going to get to bring the kids with him, in the case of a male service member or dad. Now, if you're still married, and you're trying to get divorced, one situation would be well, if you're on his PCs, orders Do you have to go? No, you have to follow whatever court order you have in the state that you're in. And if you end up moving with the children to another state at some point, then that state may have to make decisions about custody and visitation of your kids. So there's a lot of laws out there that direct the courts and attorneys on how to handle these issues when there's relocation. And it's no different for military people, it doesn't matter that they're ordered by the government to go the court is still going to look at it under the laws of the state and under these national laws that all the states have adopted. So yeah, just keep that in mind that it's going to maybe be a long process and with relocations in the military being pretty common. It may be more of a struggle, because you for sure are going to have a relocation issue probably. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for sharing all that. It's definitely a lot. And I just want to ask because one thing I know that you both have in common Katie and Lorna is that is your love for Family Law. So Katie, and Lorna, one thing that I learned about both of you and reading about you and getting to know you, is that you both have this love for Family Law. So everything we shared today was really in favor for the spouses and the families. Tell us where does that motivation come from both of you and Katie, you're nodding a lot. So I'm going to start with I'm going to start with you and

for me, it's kind of a personal mission. I mean, aside From, I mean, I'm, I'm a wife and a mother of two young children too. But when I was really young, an uncle of mine married a woman who was awful. And at the time, when I was a little kid, I thought, you know, I go to law school, because all of noxious 10 year old should be lawyers, right? So I was going to go to law school, and I was going to get them divorced. And it was, it was, so I would not touch that Now, of course, but just seeing how awful it can be to be trapped in a bad marriage. And my mom always said, you know, you have to be so careful who you marry, because they shake you and your family, and not just the two of you, but your extended family, and it impacts everyone. And then I went on to be in an abusive relationship when I was in law school, because I didn't learn. And it just it, you know, just my bad relationship. And my, my uncle's marriage really just gave me a heart for this kind of work, I really, and then I got involved helping women. And I see I've seen all the ways that they're really disadvantaged in the court system, and all the things that, you know, people really need to know to protect themselves. And it's just it fires me up. And I just want to help a lot of people get through unit, some of these these terrible situations, so that they can create the future for themselves and their children that they've envisioned. It's hard work, it's emotional work. But it's really, really important work and ultimately, very empowering. Because the woman that you see in your office on that first day, who cries through the initial consultation, is not the same woman that you see, at the end of the day, when you get that divorce decree entered, you really go through it for that transformation, and that strengthening process and, and giving her the tools that she needs to succeed, you know, in the later part of her life, and I think it's a beautiful thing. And I've just really found a lot of purpose in it. And I really enjoy the work.

Thank you for sharing, sharing it. I just touched my heart there. Yeah, it's a loaded question. Because there's so much inside each of us, I think, and whatever career path we choose, but echo everything that Katie said, I think that not everyone can do Family Law. It's emotionally draining, you're dealing with messy issues. And a lot of attorneys don't like to do it. And they'd rather handle the cut and dry, more boring sort of money issues, tax issues, business issues. But I found for me, ever since I was younger, that if I wanted to do anything with my life, I wanted it to affect people in their lives in a very concrete way. My parents had to hire an attorney when I was younger, to help them adopt my siblings from the foster care system. It was a very long court case that lasted like five years. And I was a juror at the time. And I saw how this, the whole system was not working. It wasn't helping the children who needed help my siblings. And it was really because this one attorney stepped in and did his job really, and knew the law that my siblings were able to get adopted. And they were freed from being in foster care and subject to abuse by their biological family. So I think that if you have a heart for it, if you like families, if you want to help families, you know, families are broken. I mean, every family is imperfect. And when you're going through a divorce, or have an issue with custody or support, it doesn't have to be terrible. You need an advocate, you need somebody to help advocate for you and be on your side. And I find it very fulfilling in that regard. Well, thank you both so much for being here. At any length just wanted to check in with you see if you had any thoughts,

I just really want to say thank you for continuing to use the language breakdown of a marriage, I noticed that both of you used it often. And I just think that that is so empowering to take such a sad thing and turn it around and not make it sound like a failure. You know, I work in mental health advocacy. And there's been a lot of change in language on how we talk about things in that way. So that it doesn't sound like it is a failure of someone to have a mental health issue or things like that. And so I just wanted to say I really appreciate the way that you have spoken with us today about talking about the end of a marriage and how you take care of that because it was a breakdown. Not necessarily a fault or, you know, a Oh, maybe a little emotional Sorry, I totally lost my train of thought.

I think that's a woman centered thing, right? We see that a lot women get their sense of worth from their relationships and when their marriages fall apart. It's difficult they blame themselves that we see a lot of You know, anxiety and depression and things like that. And we always tell our clients that the divorce process is going to be better, it's going to be easier if you talk to a mental health provider, someone who can help get you through this, the courts are really good about that sort of thing, too. So if you're worried about custody, if you're worried about the impact of, you know, a diagnosis on your case, don't be you know, get the help that you need, deal with the feelings of loss that you're experiencing. It's all it's very real, very natural, it's part of the process, you should deal with it healthfully and work through it. But ultimately, you know, have the faith that if you ask the questions, if you get the answers, if you take the steps, you'll protect yourself and protect your children, and everything will be okay.

Well, I love how we can end this conversation on a hopeful note. I really appreciate this conversation, because it's really about empowering the military, spouse and family members. That's really what this show is about holding down the fort is putting our families front and center and reminding them that they matter, and that there are resources for them today that they can run with and continue to feel confident in their decisions, and how they hold down the fort shameless plug right there. So as we wrap up here, I know that for the half heimer Family Law Firm, you have a free guide, if the spouse is looking in this direction, or looking to at least get more informed, called the Virginia Military wives guide to divorce. Who would like to elaborate on what that book is about?

Yeah, we'll go ahead again. I've worked a lot with the books we have to divorce books or regular civilian divorce book in the Military Divorce book. So you don't really need both, we get that question a lot. Like, you know, I'm getting divorced. But which book do I get? We cover all of the general divorce information in the Military Divorce book. But we also give you specific information about your rights as it relates to the military. So the military retirement, the TSP, the survivor benefit, all of those kinds of things that you need to know bH calculating child support, how relocation and things are handled in military situations. So it's a pretty good, comprehensive and free guide that can help you as you kind of figure out what your next steps should be. I think one of the problems that I see is people don't know what they don't know. And it's hard to go into a new topic and know exactly what questions to ask. You're like, I have so many, but like, Which ones? And what do I ask and what are the words, and this will help give you a better understanding of Virginia law. This is of course, Virginia specific, but you know, how it all works, and exactly what questions you should be asking, even if you're not in Virginia, I think it's a really helpful resource to just kind of flag the issues and help you, you know, get conversant with the vocabulary so that you're able to have a conversation and ask the questions you need to ask, but it's a pretty thorough guide to how Military Divorce in Virginia works. We also have a custody guide as well, that's a separate book that you can also request. So if you have minor children in question, that can help give you a little bit more guidance about how the custody procedures work as well. So I would definitely encourage you to download both of them. If you live in our immediate area, we can send a hard copy to you. But regardless, you'll get a downloadable ebook version. And you can print it up, you can write all over it. Yeah, ask your quick, you know, get ready to ask your questions. It's a really great resource. So I definitely encourage you to get it.

Awesome. I love it. Yeah. And of course, that website is half la.com hflaw.com. I mean, I know that was the main thing you wanted to share in regards to how people can get ahold of you. But any other ways that you want to share where people can find you online.

We're really just on the one website hafla.com. But there's a ton of resources available there, we have a monthly divorce seminar that we do as well, because of the pandemic. We're doing those all by zoom now, but it's a chance to, to see us live and in person, you know, in person is we can be on a computer screen to ask live questions. So if you have questions that spilled over from your reading of the book that you wanted to get more information on, you can attend the seminar and ask that way. We also have a pretty comprehensive library of resources. So blog articles frequently asked question, and things like that. So if there's a particular topic or something you wanted to know more about how to file for divorce, you know what a divorce complaint looks like? What's a corroborating witness? You know, whatever your questions are, you even type them in our little search bar and get tons of information. We're, of course, we're not the only attorneys in our firm, there's six of us and we've got three different offices in the Hampton Roads area. So if you're looking for someone, feel free to read through our BIOS, we're all a little bit different. We all have slightly different backgrounds. So you may find that someone you know resonates with you a little bit better. But you know, there's no obligation if you just want information, you can come talk to a lawyer, we're not going to push you towards divorce. We're not going to counsel you to end your marriage. We're going to listen and give you information based on your specific set of circumstances and try and help you figure out a solution. Ultimately, though, the final decision is yours and will never push you towards a divorce. It's not a question of opening Doors locks and, you know, not being able to, you know, put those things back away again, that doesn't set any chain of events into emotion into motion, it just gets you the answers to the questions that you need answered.

Thank you both for just approaching such a sensitive topic. And many, I feel like we covered a lot of topics today, but you know, mainly around Family Law and the families just really approaching it in such a delicate, compassionate way. You know, thank you for doing the emotional work. I don't know what you guys do outside of working to come back into the office, but I loved you both for the amazing work that you both are doing. Yeah, Lauren, any closing thoughts from you? I would say, you know, rely on your military community for emotional support. You know, if you have some of these questions, I'm sure somebody else does, too. If you're going through something hard, I'm sure somebody else is going through something hard, too. And I'm a big believer in sharing your vulnerability with the right people. That's how I survive, you know, for my tribe in my community. So thanks for doing this podcast. I think that's part of that. And yeah, it will all be okay if you know somebody in this type of situation, or if you're going through it yourself. Wonderful. Wow. Well, thank you all. Well, thank you both, again, for being on our show. And of course, Jalen for co hosting with me. We hope that today's episode gave you one more piece of knowledge, resource or relevant story, so you can continue to make confident and informed decisions for you and your family. We look forward to speaking with you in the next episode. Tune in next time.