Andrew Peterson is an award-winning musician. He’s also the author of a bestselling fantasy series for children called the Wingfeather Saga. Andrew joins host Matt Popovits to discuss the power of stories and the latest addition to the Wingfeather series. Don’t miss this fascinating conversation.

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Hey friends, I wanna welcome to the program author and musician. Andrew Peterson. Andrew, thanks for spending time with me today. Yeah, man. Good to see you. It's great to see you. So, so I mentioned musician and author. Uh, there are many people are obviously familiar with your music, but you've been a respected and, uh, well known author for a little bit now, uh, because of the wing feather saga. So for those who are maybe familiar with your music, but who aren't familiar with wing feather, uh, give us a quick overview of this book series.

Well, I don't know how to do that. I've tried many times to give a quick overview, um, and it is, my brain gets all clogged with information. So I'll just tell you, it's a four book, fantasy adventure series, uh, written for children of all ages. Um, and I grew up reading fantasy and always wanted to try my hand at writing a big epic and, uh, and it became the win feather saga, which has just been one of the great joys of my life.

So how do you, how do you start the process of writing fantasy? Because you know, the thing about fantasy is like, it's a, it's a whole world. You, you create a, a whole world and, and that's, that has to be like an incredibly daunting task to begin. So like where do you even start with that?

Uh, well it it's, I like many people who have tried to write books. I had many false starts over the years and you know, all the way back to high school, even I wanted to, to, to try writing a book. Um, but it wasn't until I was in my late twenties, maybe early thirties. I can't remember exactly when I really started in earnest. Um, but I took a cue from Toki who said, you start with a map. And so, um, a lot of times we get, uh, kind of get things out of order by, uh, trying to write the story before we've built the world and, uh, when it comes to, and you have to build the world first and, uh, the story kind of grows out of the compost of the world building. And so, yeah, I just drew, drew a nerdy map, uh, with my sketchbook from high school and, uh, started writing imaginary histories and backs stories. And next thing you know, I, I had, uh, I, I bumped into my main character.

So, so you have this, this wonderful quote and, and we we'll get to the, the latest, uh, addition to the world of wing feather in just a second. But in the, in the, in the, in the preface of this latest edition, you have this, this great quote from, uh, this or this, this thought from, to that says that the building of imaginary worlds is one of our highest callings as image bearing children of God. And he token bore that image. Well, tell me more about why that, that thought, that idea from Tolkin, that that building worlds is, is one of our high callings as image bears of God. Why that, why that resonates with, with you should resonate with us?

Yeah, well, it's the idea is in his essay on fair stories, which is really marvelous. It's, it's a, it's not like a short, easy read it's this essay that he wrote, um, for a talk that delivered in the thirties, I think. And, uh, anyway, it's, it's basically, uh, his theology of stories telling and like how he thinks of storytelling as a Christian. And, uh, it's fascinating to read, but one of the, one of the ideas the he puts forth is this idea that God is the creator with a capital C and that we are sub creators we were little creators. And like, from a biblical standpoint, I, I learned this this year that the, uh, the, the Hebrew word for create is only ever used in, in, uh, in, uh, talking about God. And whenever it talks about people, uh, it always uses the word make, so God creates, but of people make mm-hmm , which I think is fascinating.

So it, it keeps with the talking thing that like, God is the creator. He, he spoke the world into being, but one of the ways that we bear out his images, that we also speak light into the world and we speak we're. We also build, uh, kingdoms. And part of the beauty of, of like the, a new creation in the church is that I feel like, um, God has invited us to participate in the building of his kingdom. And so when we use our imaginations, uh, and then use our creativity to make things, um, that's, it's, it's in imitation of, of our creator. And so there's something holy and mysterious at work. Any time you sit down to, to make anything, whether you're writing a sermon or a song or drawing up architectural plans, or, or even I would argue, um, um, coming up with a V vaccine, you know, like, there's all, all this like real intense image bearing, uh, creativity.

That is, that is coming out of us in that way. And so talking kind of like, he, he was a big fan of fairy tales in, in the loose sense. And so, uh, he argued that, like, that kind of world building is like that kind of sub creative impulse at its highest is us actually like building an imaginary world. And, uh, and, and writing a false history. not false. It's probably the wrong word, but, you know, an imaginary history of that world is like us exercising, like the highest form of that kind of creativity. I don't know if I totally agree with that, but that's what he said.

Well, I mean, it's, uh, I, I think that the way you just articulated it, it, um, it adds a sense of purpose and beauty and, um, dignity to every vocation, right? I mean, whether you, whether you're, whether you're writing a, a fantasy world, uh, I quite literally, or, or not, um, the, the idea that we are all working to, to be building a, a kingdom in some sense, um, that is reflective in some way of the ultimate building and the ultimate kingdom that God has created. Mm-hmm , and that we, as if, if you're people of faith, you get to try and do that in step with the heart and the values of the one who, who writes the whole, who writes the whole story. Right. So, so as God created, I get to make in whatever way in which I've been called to make. Right. Um, and, and now in, in, in, in, in the WFE saga, your, your story that your, your fantasy world, the, the, the, the world of fantasy that you've created, it, it very purposely, uh, mirrors touches on the, of the things of God in the tradition of, uh, of, to, and, and, and Lewis. Um, it, in a, it's a, it's, it's an allegory for lack of a better term of something bigger and something greater. Um, am, uh, am I accurate in that or no,

Um, sorta of, like, I think it's written in the same spirit, uh, you know, this sounds pretentious, but as the token and the Lewis thing, and a lot of other fantasy writers, I think, I think really what that just means is that I'm a Christian who, who, who sincerely believes in the person of Jesus and, and looks at the world through that lens and looks at the, the vocation of, uh, telling of storytelling through that lens. So, um, you know, what I happen to believe is that God commande, so stories written by anybody all the time and, uh, all truth is God's truth, obviously. And, and so as a, uh, as an author, like, as somebody who sat down and spent 10 years trying to tell a story, I was, um, you know, there was some, some themes, I guess, that I had in mind when I sat down to write the book, but I, I didn't have like, um, I was desperate to not moralize, you know, I didn't want, I didn't want the books to be just like these didactic.

Um, you know, I'm, I'm not writing the book just so that I can, you know, provide examples of, of courage or whatever. I, I believed, like, I think that happens, but that's not ultimately what I sat down to do. What I, it done to do was to, to write the very, very best story that I was capable of writing. Um, and in doing so trusting the holy spirit in me to do what he would through that story. And so, of course, you know, what I believe is gonna come out in, in the book. So in that sense, like if I, if you think of it as talking on talking on one end of the spectrum and CS Lee was on the other end, right? So the Narnia books like, uh, have an Alan character, like he was supposing that God would interact with the world of Narnia, um, in the way that he interacted with our real world.

And so he was, it was like a little more on the nose. Mm-hmm with the NA books, which amazingly didn't reduce their power. Like, I think it testimony to the fact that Lewis was such a great writer that, that he got away with it somehow. I don't know how, um, but a lot of, a lot of Christian fantasy these days tends to, you know, lean toward, I'm telling you this story. But the real thing that I'm trying to do is to get you to believe in Jesus, right? Mm. And so I, I'm not saying that I don't want people to believe in Jesus, but I think the way to, to surprise people with the truth is to first tell the best story that you can. And then there's a sense in which the rest of it is God's business, not mine. And so, um, as a believer, I like I'm thrilled that people have been, you know, have told me that they've been edified by it, or they felt longing. That's one of the things that I most wanted was for people to wake up to their, their longing for the new creation and for Christ himself. Um, but I, I was, I was, I took very sea. Um, the, the fact that you can't get the cart before the horse, you have to start with tell a great story, um, and then trust that those things are gonna happen.

Hmm. For those who aren't familiar with the world of air we are, and the, the ITAB be family. C could you, could you tell us a, a little bit about the journey that they take without, you know, spoiling

Things without spoiling? Uh, it's hard to do, I can tell you that there, that it's, it focuses on three children who are siblings, Janer Kmar and, and Lee, who, uh, are in the first book, they're living in a little town called Glip wood that is overrun by the fangs of dang it's this, you know, kind of imagine, uh, a Nazi army that is, you know, occupied their little town. And, uh, and their dad died in the war. They're being raised by their mother and their grandfather. And, um, and nobody will talk about the fact that nobody ever talks about their dad. Uh, all they know is that he died in the war. And so the kids are kind of living in this, my, and underneath the oppression of this terrible force and Janer, the main character has this sneaking suspicion that his life is just gonna always be this boring, small, uh, thing. And he is, he's kind of a, a forgettable person. Um, and then one day he and his siblings discovered that they are far more beloved than they ever would've dreamed. And that they're at the heart of this mystery that is gonna change the world forever.

So this is the latest edition to the world of wing feather. Yeah. Uh, it's the, it's the wing feather tales and it's, uh, it's pretty fantastic, but, but, but it, but it's, it's different than the previous four books in, in terms of what, what it, what it does. It's um, uh, will you tell, tell our listeners how, how is this different it's compilation of different stories from different authors?

Yeah. So it's, it, it grew out of the, we, the first edition of the book for the wing feather saga was started. And so before it got picked up by a random house. And so, uh, we, we, um, one of the stretch goals was a compilation of short stories by other authors. And it was like a way deep stretch goal that we never thought we would make, but we made it. And so suddenly it was like, oh boy, now I have to, to hound a, these six authors for stories. And so, uh, you know, in the rabbit room community here in Nashville, there's, there's a lot of wonderful authors. And so Jennifer Triton, who's this great, great, great writer. And my brother, Pete Peterson, who's a playwright and a novelist. Um, Jonathan Rogers, who wrote the Willer king trilogy indie Wilson, who wrote the hundred series, uh, who else, Doug Kelby, who wrote every moment, holy and is also a, a novelist, uh, wrote, wrote the last story, which is this epic Noella.

And so it was like one of those things where I thought that the, that wing feather tales was gonna be this slim little volume mm-hmm . And then, uh, I wrote my story and added their stories to it, of a sudden we had a book that was longer than book one. And so it was this, uh, kind of delightful surprise that, that, and what an incredible honor that these, these amazing writers, uh, would take the time to enter into where we are and into the world of wing brother saga and write stories of their own. So I, I write in the preface that, that, like, as much as somebody else may enjoy wing feather tales, nobody will experience it the way that I did mm-hmm because, uh, the analogy was that I had built this house and then invited my friends over. And then they showed me all the secret passageways that I didn't know were there. And so I, all of a sudden I was experiencing parts of this world of air. We are, that I thought up that I had never seen before. And, uh, and it was just a total delay.

W was there, was there any aspect of it that was, um, that was, gosh, difficult's probably too strong of a word, or was there any hesitation to, to hand this world off in some sense to even trusted friends, because you know, this, this is precious to you, obviously.

Yeah. Yeah. It is precious, but like, I, I, I love collaboration and, um, it's one of the things that is that playing music for a living has taught me that, like, I, if I write my own song and I show up in the studio and I'm really precious and, and, uh, defensive of the song ever changing, then the song isn't gonna grow into what it could be. So like one of the joys of being in the studios, when you go, let's see what happens when we bring this guitar player in, and this, this, uh, background vocalist and this by Linton, and all of a sudden, the song begins to like Burge in and take on more life than it would have if it was just you. And so I was really eager actually to see what would happen when these authors brought their, their own creativity to bear.

So was there, was there any, was there any one particular moment in the collection of these stories that gave you, uh, that surprised you the most, or gave you the joy or made you like laugh out loud? If I can't believe what they've taught me about my own story, or I can't believe where they took this. Why didn't I think of that as I was writing the first four books,

Every, every story in one way or another did that, uh, for me, Jennifer trappin story, the wooing Ofili stoop is like, , uh, Jennifer's one of the most creative, like, uh, she wears these like goggles of wonder all the time. And so, um, she's very childlike in a way. And so her story has more made up words. The, we actually just recorded the audio book and the, uh, the producer of the audio book, who does it, ton of them. She said that this book should win an award for the most made up words, uh, that she's ever experienced, because she's always like correcting my pronunciation or looking up words to make sure we're saying 'em right. And there were so many words. She was like, well, that's a new one. Like, uh, I can't even think of think of any, uh, any off the top of my head, but shes, just a word nerd.

So like her, her, her story bubbled over with it. But I think I like one of the most moving reading experiences of my life, and I'm not exaggerating was reading, uh, the places beyond the maps, Doug Kels, Noella at the end of the story, it is one of the most like, I, I just, it's one of the best things that I've ever, ever read period across anything. And so it, it reads like this Cormick McCarthy, Western, uh, and it's, but it's set in here. We are, and it tells this heartbreaking, epic, uh, story with the loftiest pros you can imagine. And, uh, man, I was a mess. I was reading the audio book aloud just a week ago and, uh, kept, kept getting choked up while I was a reading and they'd have to go back and I'd reread the sentences. So, but, but yeah, all of the stories in one way or another are, are delightful,

You know, I'm, I'm, I'm not surprised to hear that you, you had that reaction to, to Doug's addition to this book because you know, every moment holy, which you mentioned a moment ago is, is a treasure to me just as a, as, as a follower of Jesus, but also as a pastor it's it's and the way he's able to bring meaning significance to, um, to just the most mundane things. Yeah. Um, through that book. Right. And, and, um, it's not a surprise at all that he's then able to, to create this really vivid and emotional experience with his addition

To, uh, we haven't said many times in wrap room that, that I, I, I, I feel lucky to be alive at the same time as Doug Kelby. Like, um, I think the stuff that he's doing is gonna last for a long time, and I don't know if you know this, but volume two of every moment, holy just came out and it's called death grief and hope. And he started writing it before COVID and, uh, a book that is focused on liturgy for the dying, for, for the person who is dying to read over their family liturgies for, you know, miscarriages lit like, like really intense, but, but poignant and needed liturgies for, you know, and the fact that he wrote it started it before this season, when our, the world was gonna experience tragedy of for tragedy in many different ways. Um, and, but it, it moves from death to then the grieving process to the hope of the gospel. And man, I just, if you just read the titles of, of the liturgy, I, I defy you to not get emotional. Um, Doug is amazing. And so the fact that he wrote a, a core MC McCarthy Western in a fantasy world is just the coolest thing in the world.

Yeah, it really is. It really is. So, so Andrew for, for, for those who might be listening and, you know, perhaps, you know, re reading fantasy, um, has not been something that, that, that they've done for whatever reason, maybe, maybe they're, they don't like it. It's not my thing. Sure. Um, and certainly there, there, there will always be those people in the world. Um, but if you, if you had to make a case as for why someone should, should be interested, not just in the world, you've created, but worlds like it, uh, or whole new worlds, um, uh, through their reading, uh, in general, but what would you say?

Well, I would just say that stories are how we make sense of our lives. Like, um, when I meet people who, who don't like reading fiction, um, I'm always a little bit like, uh, shocked that, that, that it could be true. And I think that, like, that just means they haven't found the fi the right fiction. You know what I mean? I think maybe there's a lot of us feel this pressure to read things that we are supposed to read, you know, the book lists, uh, which, um, Alan Jacobs argues are, are terrible for reading, um, that you should let whim, w H I M whim kind of guide your reading, um, and read broadly. So I, I love nonfic like, I, I, I, my, my shelves are full of this breadth of stuff, but I love, but I think that having a well-rounded experience of, of reading is pretty important, but stories in particular UN and understanding of how story works is, uh, is a huge boon to just living everyday life, you know, seeing your own life in the context of a story, um, stories teach you empathy, they teach you hope, you know, it's like, it's a way of practicing exercising, the muscle of imagination, and which is this God given thing.

Um, I, uh, I just, so in the same way that like naming something changes the way you see it, right. Um, if you, we used to name our chickens, and I think I took better care of 'em when they had names, you know, now our kids are all grown and to me they're just chickens . But, uh, but the, uh, I think that poetry names, things, poetry has a way of naming complex emotions and parts of our story. There are hard to articulate in any other way. And I think stories do that for our lives. I think understanding how stories work, that it names, names, who we are and where we are in the story of the world that, that God is telling. And so, um, I, I have a hunch that, um, part of the reason CS Lewis and, you know, Walter Wonger Jr Madeline Langle Eugene Peterson, that, that some of these people, uh, whose theology is still is so robust part of the reason is because they weren't just theologians. They were also novelists, right. Or poets that they, they understood what it was like to fight your way through a, a story or a poem. And that actually augments your theology. It puts flesh on, on, on the idea, you know, it's an incarnation. So,

So, so just make sure I'm hearing you correctly. You, um, telling the telling of stories helped enrich and strengthen, um, their, their theology.

Absolutely. Like, I, I, I can't imagine, uh, I know that when I finished writing the wing feather saga and I made it to the end, uh, that I, my understanding of who God was had changed, uh, it just did like, like your, your understanding of, of predestination and free will your understanding of suffering, you know, the way God uses suffering in our lives to shape us, like, uh, you know, like for example, like I've always struggled with, it's a age old struggle, this idea that like predestination and free will, how can they both live in the same space, but like, there's this sense in which Janer, and, you know, in a sub creative way or IAB, uh, did feel like he was making his own choices in the story. And yet I never stopped being the author of his story, you know? Um, I gave him the freedom to say what he wanted to say and do what he wanted to do as he, as he moved, but I never lost sight of who he was becoming as the author of his story.

Right. I never lost control of the, um, so there's this like, fascinating, like head trip that happens when you get inside a story and you're like, this isn't exactly what it's like to be God, obviously, but he gives this little glimpse of these little glimpses of understanding and how he works. So like, you know, over the course of the 10 years I was working on the wink feather saga, I went through some, uh, depression and, um, I, and, you know, some tough stuff happened in my life, but the PR the, the habit of thinking about, uh, characters in a story and thinking of life as a story helps give me a context for the suffering. Right. Mm-hmm , it doesn't mean that I was like, oh, I'm, I'm going through a terrible season right now, but that's okay. It's a, like, that's, that's not what I mean, like, it is hard when you're in it.

And part of the nature of suffering is that you don't understand it. Right. Part of, part of the suffering is the confusion and the job-like question, why God. Right. Um, which even Jesus asked. Right? Yeah. Um, so, but story gives it a T it gives us this like, shape to the end of where you're going. That you're like, I don't understand how this is gonna work out, but I trust that the author is good. Right. Um, and so anyway, yeah, I could, I could go on and on about it, but those are all things that like, I did not expect. I wasn't trying to learn these, those things that I, it was a byproduct of submitting yourself to the discipline of trying to understand how a story works.

So, I mean, it sounds, it sounds somewhat akin to what, what I, what I certainly experienced and perhaps you did as well. And I, and I hear from a lot of others, you know, um, about how their understanding of God and their theology is enriched and, and grown when they have children. Oh yeah. All of a sudden, all this, all of a sudden, it's like, well, I feel like I, I grasp this at a whole different level now that I have kids, but, and I, and I heard a lot of that. And you say in you, as you talk about, you know, giving life to this story, like, well, now, now I see things more, more richly, more deeply and differently than, than I did before. Is that, is that exactly makes sense? Yeah. Yep. Well, Andrew, thanks so much for spending time with me today. Absolutely, man. It was great to talk to you. Yeah. Great to chat with you. Friends, go and check out, uh, the wing feather tales and the whole wing feather saga, anywhere books are sold and check out that Easter Monday concert as well@andrew-peterson.com. Andrew, once again, thank you for spending time. I hope we can do it again, uh, in the near future. Sounds great. Thank you. And thank you for listening in friends. Uh, I hope you join us right back here. Same time, same place.

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