Immerse yourself in the enchanting Driftless region with host Marvin Cash as he sits down with PJ Smith of PJ's Guide Service on The Articulate Fly. PJ divulges the allure of the Driftless Area's spring-fed creeks, home to spirited brown and brook trout and shares his seasoned guidance for mastering these intimate waters.

In this episode, PJ recounts his earliest fishing memories, the pivotal moments that drew him to fly fishing and the mentors who've shaped his approach to angling. He delves into the unique challenges of casting in the Driftless, where thick brush and clear, shallow streams demand precision and stealth. PJ's insights extend beyond the catch, emphasizing the importance of understanding the environment and the subtle interplay of insects and currents.

Listeners will gain a deeper appreciation for the art of guiding as PJ reflects on his journey from part-time passion to full-time guide, his decision to join the ranks of Orvis-endorsed professionals and the realities behind the romanticized life of a fishing guide. With humor and humility, he discusses the balance between teaching, ensuring client satisfaction and the relentless pursuit of those unforgettable days on the water.

Whether you're a novice seeking the thrill of your first trout or an experienced angler looking to refine your technique, PJ's stories and tips are sure to inspire your next fishing adventure in the Driftless or beyond.

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Helpful Episode Chapters

0:00 Introduction

5:16 Mentors in Fly Fishing

8:16 The Driftless: A Special Trout Area

11:44 Fishing Techniques in the Driftless

18:48 Getting the Guide Bug

22:41 Transition to Full-Time Guide

25:06 Challenges of Working for Yourself

26:57 Becoming Orvis Endorsed

32:41 The Secret to Being a Good Guide

49:56 Teaching Classes and Workshops

PJ: Hey folks, it's Marvin Cash, the host of the Articulate Fly.

PJ: On this episode, I'm joined by PJ Smith of PJ's Guide Service in the Driftless.

PJ: PJ shares his fly fishing journey, what makes the Driftless a must fish,

PJ: and his tips for cracking the Driftless code. I think you're really going to enjoy this one.

PJ: But before we get to the interview, just a couple of housekeeping items.

PJ: If you like the podcast, please tell a friend and please subscribe and leave

PJ: us a rating or review in the podcatcher of your choice. It really helps us out.

PJ: And we're excited to partner with our friends at Jesse Brown's to bring the

PJ: Chocolate Factory to Charlotte on May 4th.

PJ: Blaine will be teaching private tying classes, discussing predator and prey,

PJ: and sharing his favorite rod, reel, and line combos.

PJ: Check out the link in the show notes for more details.

PJ: Now, on to our interview.

Music: Well, PJ, welcome to the Articulate Fly.

Intro: Thank you very much for having me uh looking forward to talking all about fly

Intro: fishing and fishing here in the driftless so yeah thank you oh.

Music: You bet uh me too and you know i we have a tradition on the articulate fly we like to ask.

Intro: All of our guests to.

Music: Share their earliest fishing memory.

Intro: Earliest fishing memory um that one is probably uh fishing with my grandfather

Intro: father at our farm in Missouri at a, uh,

Intro: oh, we've got several farm ponds

Intro: there and catching largemouth bass and bluegill, uh, conventional gear.

Intro: And, uh, yeah, it was just, uh, one of those things, uh, you know,

Intro: I, I got to spend my summers at the farm with my grandparents and, uh, got to fish a lot.

Intro: And so, yeah, that's kind of the earliest that I can remember walking through the pasture.

Intro: I think I was probably about two or three years old.

Intro: And, yeah, just catching big bass on probably a Zepco.

Music: Yeah, one of those green Zepco 33s probably.

Intro: Yeah, more than likely that or I don't know.

Intro: We had several different Zepcos, but they were all pretty much in that same

Intro: line. uh the closed face uh spinning rails so yeah yeah i.

Music: I had to uh call no moss.

Intro: On the.

Music: Bait casters i can never quite get the hang of those.

Intro: Yeah as i

Intro: as i got older i actually got into them for a little

Intro: bit and uh yeah you can

Intro: well nowadays they're so like i

Intro: don't know they're almost engineered near where you can't backlash but back

Intro: in my day it was definitely one that you had to keep your thumb there and uh

Intro: throttle it down once you got casting in that but yeah it's uh things have come

Intro: a long long way that's for sure so yeah.

Music: So so pj when did you come to the dark side of fly fishing.

Intro: Oh, the dark side. I had just finished up with college and had started working

Intro: at the Morton Arboretum.

Intro: And at that time, I was pretty much fishing ultralights, all kinds of stuff like that.

Intro: And just really kind of was really intrigued by it. Had seen the movie River Runs Through It.

Intro: So probably right around 95, 96.

Intro: My mom had a friend that she worked with and he knew fly fishing and we tend

Intro: to I had a place that I could fish and then he knew enough about fly fishing to kind of get me started,

Intro: right at that same time I was dating my wife Donna and so we both fished we went out she kind

Intro: of fell in love with the casting and i just fell in love with

Intro: fly fishing and uh we just

Intro: really i don't know i went head first full throttle do not stop do not pass

Intro: go i just hammered down into fly fishing just loved it and uh got in with a

Intro: great shop uh at that time I'm Marcos Varga,

Intro: ran Flying Field in Glen Ellyn and met some great guys there that just kind of helped me out.

Intro: Time flies and all that, but Marcos was a huge factor, helped me out greatly,

Intro: hooked me up with gear that I could afford that was really good quality equipment.

Intro: I think the first one that I had was a five-weight Orvis Rocky Mountain.

Intro: That was the first one. I caught a lot of bass on it. I still have it.

Intro: It's a two-piece. It's old school.

Intro: So, yeah, that's kind of the start to it. And we just kind of kept going from there.

Music: Yeah, pretty neat. And so, you know, obviously it's been, you know,

Music: gosh, almost 30 years, you know, who are some other folks other than Marcos

Music: that have mentored you on your fly fishing journey? What have they taught you?

Intro: So, uh, another one that sticks out really well for me is Bill Harrell.

Intro: Uh, he was a guide up here in the drift list.

Intro: Um, you know, he really, I mean, that was kind of my first, uh, trip.

Intro: We kind of took a, uh, um, a trout school up here, uh, in the drift list.

Intro: And Bill Harrell was, uh, the teacher on that.

Intro: And it just I don't know

Intro: we just Don and I fell in love with this area um

Intro: he kind of taught us to just uh take it

Intro: all in not just focus on the fishing but take

Intro: it all in like um you know

Intro: you need to see what's coming off what

Intro: bugs and his approach was super simple

Intro: you just he's like you don't have to know what the name of the

Intro: fly is you just have to know that there's

Intro: flies coming off and they're about a size 10 or

Intro: 12 or 20 whatever and then

Intro: uh just look in your box and see if you got a fly

Intro: that kind of matches and um so that was a really good way to learn for me um

Intro: i'm kind of a visual learner um you know he also had a thing where uh uh he

Intro: could cast pretty well uh again up here in the driftless, you'd have to cast fairly well,

Intro: but he's like, it doesn't matter how it gets there. The fish don't care.

Intro: Once it's on the water, that's when they care. So just kind of worked it that way.

Intro: And then of course, Marcos at the shop is another guy that kind of mentored

Intro: me quite a bit, Steve Finnelli.

Intro: I hope i'm saying that name it's been a long time

Intro: but uh he was a shop guy there at uh

Intro: flying field and uh we always used to hang out and he was from montana just

Intro: would tell awesome stories so i always took it in and that oh probably another

Intro: real good mentor of mine has been uh vith uh he's He's a guide over in Minnesota.

Intro: And, oh, we've done many, many trips with Kip, having him guide us for Smallmouth and Muskie.

Intro: And so he's always been a great guy to just bounce ideas off.

Intro: And when I decided to become Orvis Endorsed, he was already endorsed and kind

Intro: of helped me get onto that track. So I'm pretty happy about having all those

Intro: guys in my corner and kind of cheering me on.

Intro: So I'm definitely helping out whenever I needed someone to at least listen to

Intro: me and bounce some ideas off of them.

Music: Yeah, very neat. And for folks that aren't familiar, you know,

Music: I know your home waters are located in the Driftless.

Music: You want to let folks kind of know a little bit more about the area and what

Music: makes it such a special place to chase trout? out.

Intro: So the Drupalist where we're at is basically southwest Wisconsin.

Intro: It's affectionately called the Drupalist. It does go into other states.

Intro: It goes into Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa, and a little bit of Illinois.

Intro: So obviously it's split by the Mississippi River,

Intro: And what it is, is it's an area that the glaciers basically missed.

Intro: Every time that the glaciers would advance, this area was kind of like a big, giant rock in a stream.

Intro: The glaciers just kind of went around. I do know on the Minnesota and Iowa side,

Intro: there was either one or probably like one or two advancements that actually

Intro: kind of got into their side. a little bit.

Intro: But on the Wisconsin side, it's pretty much been untouched.

Intro: It's an area that steep valleys, erosion is kind of the biggest thing.

Intro: It kind of started off as a plateau

Intro: type area and then erosion has kind of caused it to be what it is today.

Intro: Um so down at the bottom of all these

Intro: valleys is usually uh spring fred small creeks um and they can be just a few

Intro: feet wide to 20 or 30 feet wide at the best um so they're pretty small intimate

Intro: creeks that hold mostly brown and brook trout.

Intro: The brookies are the natives here, and then obviously browns were brought in early on in that.

Intro: But the spring-fed water helps keep the water clean and cold.

Intro: There is a lot of natural reproducing trout, out, but they do some...

Intro: Uh stocking at times uh it's just uh numbers and then um you know sometimes

Intro: we've had some flood events that kind of change things up so um there is uh

Intro: stocking that does go on in that,

Intro: so yeah definitely very special uh there's areas around here that are like no other place on earth,

Intro: um you know you can really look into it as you get towards the mississippi um

Intro: you can definitely kind of see where it uh you know the tall bluffs and,

Intro: just the sheer rock cliffs that are uh that are there it's pretty spectacular,

Intro: and then all throughout this region you can just go up and down all the valleys

Intro: and uh get lost but you always seem to find your way out of them so definitely very fun very.

Music: Very neat and i would imagine too you know having relatively small low gradient

Music: streams that don't have a lot of structure in them probably makes for a pretty

Music: technical fishery right.

Intro: Oh yeah it is uh i like to say it's it's definitely the hardest easiest place

Intro: to catch trout um they uh they are spooky but yet there's so many of them uh

Intro: you know if you can get your fly into the water you can,

Intro: pretty much catch something um we just have the numbers uh per mile um i've

Intro: heard as much as you know,

Intro: 4,000 per mile, give or take,

Intro: uh, which is quite a bit, um,

Intro: on that same aspect we have uh with them

Intro: being so small um the edges

Intro: grow up uh that's why right now here

Intro: in the springtime now that the snow and.

Intro: Everything's kind of mushed all the uh the brush

Intro: and weeds and stuff down it's.

Intro: It's pretty easy to get around but at the same time that

Intro: makes it really tough because they can see you coming from

Intro: a long ways away um so yeah

Intro: so is the is the year goes on uh the

Intro: weeds and uh grass and all that

Intro: brush starts growing pretty heavy and uh

Intro: it just makes it tougher and tougher to get that cast

Intro: in there um and that's where accuracy

Intro: is a huge deal um being

Intro: able to just understand like uh like

Intro: a good roll cast bow and arrow cast um and

Intro: i call it like my little flip cast even uh

Intro: doing some downstream work just letting the

Intro: fly kind of um trickle down and that

Intro: is is definitely helpful um there

Intro: are some open areas uh some of the some of

Intro: the landowners are actually doing a little bit of mowing and that

Intro: so uh you know there is

Intro: there is some stuff that uh as a beginner you can

Intro: get into uh i've been you

Intro: know obviously fishing up here for so long you start learning all those areas

Intro: and and that so uh we can go from fairly easy uh easy to get into not a lot

Intro: of brush not a lot of trees to uh super technical if you want to get into that

Intro: so there there's a lot of variety.

Intro: For sure but it is uh it makes

Intro: for fun fishing um and it'll just make you a better better fisher person all

Intro: the way around because it uh once you can fish here and catch fish you can go

Intro: anywhere and be able to cast and be accurate so it's definitely a helpful thing too yeah.

Music: And so you know in terms of i understand you know the the challenge the casting

Music: challenges you know when you've got tall brush and.

Intro: You can't.

Music: Really have a back cast, but, you know, what about some sort of on the water

Music: strategies, you know, once you've got your fly in the water where you're,

Music: I imagine you're fishing to really clear water.

Music: Um, probably a lot of it's probably pretty shallow and it's also probably relatively smooth.

Music: You know, what are some suggestions for folks to be a little bit more effective in those situations?

Intro: So once you, uh, once you get that fly in

Intro: the the water um you know

Intro: everybody's heard of a dead drift um and

Intro: that but we actually will find uh if we do our dry fly fishing actually adding

Intro: a little uh oh we call it the i call it the dry fly shake um you kind of get

Intro: that fly to kind of move a little bit um live bugs move so um.

Intro: You know, you need to put a little action into them. So I don't mind skating

Intro: a little bit on some of my flies.

Intro: They'll take it on the swing, which is pretty cool. If you're doing like nymphing

Intro: at that, just trying to like get those flies in without a huge splash.

Intro: Again, it's pretty hard with the heavier tungsten and that.

Intro: Um so i i try

Intro: to limit um trying to

Intro: do a huge splash sometimes just adding a little extra tippet to make that presentation

Intro: a little softer um i do kind of i fall into the keep it really simple so all

Intro: of my leaders start off at seven and a half foot either a three or a

Intro: 4X and then I just add on tippet as I need it.

Intro: That way I kind of know exactly how long my leaders are most of the time,

Intro: unless I've had to cut them apart and make them super long and that.

Intro: But most of the time you can get away with something like that.

Intro: On a real open stream where the fish are being a little more finicky,

Intro: adding a little more tippet is definitely helpful it doesn't have to be smaller

Intro: but it just gives that a little easier presentation and then um i try to uh

Intro: i'll use a more of a dry fly as opposed to an indicator.

Intro: Um especially the harder indicators like um the ones that are like uh made of

Intro: plastic and that they work good but they're just they're a little bit too much

Intro: on these small creeks so i go with a.

Intro: Um oh like a larger almost

Intro: like a hopper a rubber leg stimulator uh we

Intro: have a fly around here called the hippie stomp it's actually

Intro: from out west uh highly effective around

Intro: here and the nice thing about

Intro: that is is like now you've actually put two hooks on

Intro: the water so your chances of hooking a fish are

Intro: uh are doubled now so uh it

Intro: makes it pretty easy um those foam indicator

Intro: style flies are uh really buoyant

Intro: so they stay up pretty good so yeah so it's again

Intro: i try to keep it pretty simple there's a lot of

Intro: good techniques like anytime we

Intro: get a a rain around here uh we

Intro: usually will try to switch over to streamers as well

Intro: um because once that water stains up boy

Intro: they'll they'll actively go after streamers and stuff

Intro: so it's kind of um there's

Intro: a lot here you can learn a lot of different techniques a

Intro: lot of euro guys around here uh and that

Intro: and that's always something that we kind of dabble in

Intro: a little bit it's something that is kind of on our to-do list

Intro: around here as well uh learning that a little bit more but um yeah so it it's

Intro: one of those that you can kind of run the gamut if you're a dry fly guy you

Intro: can do really well nymph streamers so yeah Yeah.

Music: What's not to like is they like to say, and, you know, PJ, when did you get the guide bug?

Intro: Oh, the guide bug was probably not too long after I started fishing up here.

Intro: I think I'm right now I'm in my 14th season, give or take.

Intro: I'd have to look back and see if I can find my original guide license that I had.

Intro: But yeah, I just we were coming up here so often.

Intro: Uh you know we we would come

Intro: up here throughout the summer and fish and every

Intro: once in a while i'd run into bill and uh

Intro: i you know i'd always talk about

Intro: it like oh it'd be kind of cool to be a guide and all that

Intro: and finally one day he kind of just told me

Intro: he's like you know either do it or don't do

Intro: it but he goes you just just shut up about it like

Intro: he goes i don't care what you do but you've worked

Intro: here you've done enough fishing in here um he

Intro: goes just just do it so that was oh i

Intro: think i had been fishing up here for almost 15 years

Intro: uh so uh yeah that's what that was a push that i needed i'd always kind of helped

Intro: friends when we were fishing together um so i I guess I was kind of guiding

Intro: them without actually guiding them, you know, a friend trip.

Intro: I always wanted to make sure that they caught fish and whether that was fishing

Intro: for bass or panfish or trout,

Intro: you know, I'd go on some of our trips with the club that we belong to in Illinois, Drift.

Intro: And then I'd always just kind of help out the new guys that weren't totally

Intro: sure how to do some stuff.

Intro: So yeah, that kind of got me started into it and then I got my guide license

Intro: for Wisconsin and yeah, just kind of,

Intro: Went from there, was working a full-time job and pretty much driving up a lot

Intro: of weekends and doing the guide thing.

Music: Yeah. And so did you always just guide for yourself or did you kind of start

Music: guiding through shops in the area?

Intro: No, I've always just been an independent.

Intro: At that time, I just didn't feel confident enough to go into a shop and that.

Intro: Probably should have at times, but again, hindsight's always 20-20.

Intro: And as far as things go now, I'm happy that I could do what I can do.

Intro: I did it all on my own, but with a lot of help from friends and family and that.

Intro: So I just stayed independent.

Intro: 2018, I left my full-time job and went full-time into the guiding world.

Intro: Uh at that same time i uh i

Intro: decided i uh went out to

Intro: an orvis guide rendezvous really liked

Intro: their program and decided to uh become orvis

Intro: endorsed so i guess that's kind of the thing there and my wife at the time was

Intro: actually working for orvis in uh madison at their store so uh yeah so she she's

Intro: kind of been on the the shop side of it i've been uh

Intro: just the guide and the guy that ties the knots and rows the boat.

Intro: So, um, yeah, I just, uh, you know, that's what I like doing.

Intro: I, you know, that, yeah, just guiding and helping people, uh,

Intro: get into some fish and all that and hoping they have a fun day.

Music: So, you know, it's interesting. We're, I think, uh, we're of a similar vintage.

Music: Tell me a little bit more about how you made the decision to kind of quit the

Music: safe full-time thing and become a full-time fishing guide.

Intro: Yeah that one is a good one yeah

Intro: i uh i graduated college um and

Intro: graduated college on a saturday drove

Intro: home sunday started work monday at the morton arboretum and uh 26 years later

Intro: uh the day before i turned 50 i left there and became a full-time guide um yeah i mean i had done a

Intro: full-time job in the Chicagoland area.

Intro: And I don't know, you just get to a point where you just need to make a change and you're.

Intro: Yeah, I mean, I was, yeah, I just had that drawing to just become a guide.

Intro: That's what I wanted to do.

Intro: I figured if I didn't do it by the time I was 50, I wouldn't ever do it.

Intro: And then I'd have that regret.

Intro: So, yeah, it was a tough one.

Intro: Stepping off that cliff was very tough.

Intro: You know, I mean, we were smart enough to know that it wasn't going to be easy.

Intro: You know, I had been guiding for many years part-time in that.

Intro: And then all of a sudden, now I'm going to hopefully try to make a living out of it.

Intro: But we had planned, we had savings, and we actually had a house up here in the Duraflis.

Intro: So it kind of made things easy to transition.

Intro: And that, so yeah, just kind of made that jump and hoped for the best.

Intro: And I held on to a few things.

Intro: I kept my CDL license just in case I needed to go back and be a truck driver,

Intro: a heavy equipment operator.

Intro: But yeah, I've never looked back. I've been happy after that.

Intro: Wake up every day and feel kind of blessed to be here.

Intro: Luckily with my wife being in the industry and being understanding,

Intro: she was right there with me and said, yeah, let's do it.

Intro: So, um, but it was tough.

Intro: Uh, there's no doubt about it. There's days that I, I just hope that,

Intro: uh, someone calls and books a trip.

Music: So is that kind of the biggest challenge is just kind of keeping your plate

Music: full or are there other things that have kind of surprised you kind of making

Music: that transition from a kind of a safer gig to, you know, working for yourself?

Intro: Um, yeah, I would definitely say just keeping busy, uh, you know, COVID didn't help.

Intro: It, it helped, but it didn't help, uh, at the same time, uh,

Intro: got a lot of people outside.

Intro: Uh, so there are a lot of people that needed, uh, help in getting into fly fishing, uh, on that same thing.

Intro: It, uh, it didn't help because we were shut down the entire time that COVID was,

Intro: happening in that so uh so that

Intro: was a little tough um right now we're just

Intro: we're kind of really ramping back up we're doing

Intro: a lot of shows doing uh programs at

Intro: shop wherever we can go into uh uh like tu meetings and other uh clubs we're

Intro: trying to do meetings and um i've got several uh PowerPoint programs that I

Intro: give throughout kind of this upper Midwest area.

Intro: So, yeah, so I kind of focus on that. That's how word of mouth kind of helps too.

Intro: And then obviously being Orvis endorsed now is really big for us because that

Intro: really has kind of pushed it a little bit more. but we're always,

Intro: always looking to fill some more, more dates.

Intro: Um, you know, there's, there's obviously, um.

Intro: You know, the off season, we're looking at trying to fill some of those that

Intro: time with some other stuff that we're looking into.

Music: Yeah. And so, you know, it's interesting because, I mean, can you talk a little

Music: bit more about kind of the process of becoming Orvis Endorsed?

Music: I know, you know, it's kind of a little bit of a mystery, right?

Music: And then there's a lot of lore around it.

Music: But can you kind of tell us a little bit about the process and kind of why you

Music: thought having that credential was so important?

Intro: Um a lot of it had to do with uh kip

Intro: v he uh oh i

Intro: i kind of was talking to him about it and uh we ended up going to an ogr out

Intro: in asheville um and just you know their their whole program the fact that they

Intro: uh were letting at that time they were uh anybody that was kind of on a pro

Intro: -staff, like a guide could come out and go to their stuff.

Intro: And it just kind of made it nice and an easy transition.

Intro: You know, they were pretty open and pretty forthcoming with all their information.

Intro: You know, they talked about how they were revamping some of their program and

Intro: they were going to kind of start putting guides first again.

Intro: You know, if you needed help with some stuff, they would help you get that.

Intro: You know, if you needed rods repaired and stuff like that, although now it's

Intro: a little different, you know, it's easier to get parts and stuff now.

Intro: So I just I and I enjoyed that part of it.

Intro: Again, when I got back from that, that trip, I talked a little bit more with

Intro: Kip and then I reached out to Orvis. And we basically set up a.

Intro: A time to meet. So they, they actually kind of vetted me.

Intro: Uh, I know there was other people that I'm sure were called and asked if I was, uh, legit.

Intro: And, um, so yeah, it kind of, that kind of started it.

Intro: And then I ended up having to basically do a trip, uh, with Pete Kutzer from

Intro: Morris and, um, yeah, so it, it was kind of weird cause it was actually a musky trip.

Intro: Um by the time he could get out

Intro: uh it was

Intro: muskie time uh trout fishing had already closed

Intro: so we did a muskie trip and ironically that

Intro: day the whole week before it was super nice weather and all that and then he

Intro: comes out and the weather is absolutely terrible uh it rained so much there's

Intro: probably eight inches of water in the bottom of my boat um so that made it fun

Intro: uh but we moved some fish And, uh, yeah,

Intro: it just, that's, uh.

Intro: You know, it was fun and they realized that, uh, I was really just wanting to,

Intro: uh, make trips, uh, an adventure and, uh, take care of clients.

Intro: And, uh, I wasn't just some guy looking to just get into it all about the money or, or whatever.

Intro: It's like, I, I want people to enjoy their trip. It's they're paying me to basically

Intro: go on a vacation and that.

Intro: So, so, yeah. So I was approved and I think my approval went through sometime in 2019 or early 2020.

Intro: And so I became an enormous endorsed guide by then.

Music: Yeah. So it's just in time for COVID, right?

Intro: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, not exciting, but, you know, that time was a little

Intro: rough because I was like, wow, did I make a mistake?

Intro: But we got through it. You know, it's stuff that I can't control.

Intro: So I try to, you know, not focus on that and just focus on what I can control.

Intro: It's kind of like the weather. I can't control the weather.

Intro: I can't, you know, control stuff like that. So, I try to not dwell on that.

Intro: It's hard not to, but that's what I try to at least strive for.

Music: Yeah. And I guess, so, you know, they vet you and then, you know,

Music: you're kind of put on the website.

Music: And I know they have great support services because I've talked to other Orvis Endorse guides.

Music: And it's like, if you break a rod, they're literally FedExing rides out to you.

Music: And then I guess, right, there's an annual membership fee to kind of stay in

Music: the program. Is that generally how it works?

Intro: Yep. Yeah. Yeah.

Intro: Yep. Yeah. And they, they do still make sure like they, they come out,

Intro: um, or, you know, with COVID and that that's kind of changed some stuff up, but, um,

Intro: you know, I, I talked to Pete Kutzer and, and that, uh, I wouldn't say frequently,

Intro: but I talked to him pretty much, uh, yearly, if not more.

Intro: Um, so we're just making sure things are on the right track.

Intro: Um, you know, obviously Obviously, if there's any problems with clients and

Intro: they call Orvis, you know, and it becomes a problem and they obviously talk

Intro: to you, but not any of that,

Intro: you know, we don't have problems with clients.

Intro: They, uh, I, again, I try to work with them and do the best that I can, uh, for everybody.

Intro: So, um, so yeah, if you, uh, if you strive to reach their goals,

Intro: uh, you don't have problems. So, yeah.

Music: And which, which is a great segue into my next question, PJ is what do you think

Music: is the secret to being a good guide?

Intro: Well, you know, everybody will be like, oh, you got to catch a ton of fish and

Intro: all that. And I can tell you right now, you know, I do catch a lot of fish at times.

Intro: But to be honest, to be a good guide, you have to be able to listen and kind

Intro: of read people, understand them, understand what they're not saying to you,

Intro: along with what they are saying to you.

Intro: I've seen a lot of guys out there and they're like, oh, I, you know,

Intro: 100 fish days and all that. And to be honest with you, when things are good,

Intro: yeah, you can get a hundred fish day.

Intro: It's not an impossibility, but it's the days that you don't catch any fish.

Intro: That's when a true guide is going to shine.

Intro: You know, most of the time, like I said, when it's easy, it's easy.

Intro: When it's hard, that's when you'll find out who a real good guide is.

Intro: Um, so I really try to strive for just, um, being the best I can be,

Intro: uh, giving 110% of myself, uh,

Intro: Uh, yeah, I mean, I just, you know, I want them to be happy.

Intro: I want them to go home and feel like they had a good time.

Intro: Um, yeah, I do try to get them fish.

Intro: Uh, but some of it's not all about that. A lot of my clients,

Intro: they want to learn something.

Intro: So I try to teach them like, you know, we talk about the drift list or we talk

Intro: about like casting or we talk about different whys and stuff like that.

Intro: So it's not always about that.

Intro: You just, you know, you try to help them kind of on their journey as well.

Intro: They, you know, they've trusted you to take them out.

Intro: So, yeah, so I try to teach and, you know, if anything goes wrong,

Intro: I try to be there to help solve their problem.

Intro: Them um so yeah so i just

Intro: uh um yeah listen to their needs and uh that's kind of hard for some people

Intro: because they they don't always like i'm a really i'm a good listener and i can

Intro: i can sense when something's not going right even if they don't see anything you can just,

Intro: I can just tell when something's not right and then I'll just kind of keep prying until I get it.

Intro: And sometimes we just sit back a little bit, talk a little bit,

Intro: you know, because sometimes it's not always about just the fishing part of it.

Intro: I mean, I get a lot of people that have told me a lot more than I I wanted to know.

Intro: You know, it's like, you know, people have outside lives. And,

Intro: um, sometimes when you're fishing, it, it comes out quite a bit.

Music: So yeah, it's like being a bartender on the water without a beer, right?

Intro: Exactly. I'm a really cheap therapist. That's for sure. Yeah.

Music: And so, you know, what do you think PJ is the biggest misconception that people

Music: have about the life of a fishing guide?

Intro: Oh, well, you know, if you look at Instagram, it's, it's all perfect.

Intro: I think every day is a bluebird day and you catch tons of fish and you get free

Intro: deals and everybody gives you a fly rod.

Intro: And it's just super easy. And that is probably the biggest thing that is so untrue.

Intro: There's a lot of days where, you know, like, well, I've got a trip tomorrow.

Intro: And I've been working on this trip for the last two or three days now.

Intro: So I I've scouted water, checked everything out, got my boat already, um, checked all my rods.

Intro: So it it's, you know, it's not just the day that you're on the water.

Intro: It's it's the days beforehand.

Intro: I planned out a meal prep and all that.

Intro: Um, you know, just making sure everything's ready, uh, going through flies.

Intro: Um, so yeah, so it, it's, it's a lot more.

Intro: And then on top of it, when, uh, you're not getting those calls or you got days

Intro: off and, um, you know, you're, I'm, I'm going to the laundromat doing laundry and stuff like that.

Intro: So it's, it's not all glamorous. risks there's a

Intro: lot of uh can be downtime um and

Intro: then you know the seasonal depression is

Intro: kind of a weird one too uh during the winter

Intro: when we're not fishing as much um that

Intro: can kind of get to you know you get the gray days and

Intro: you're just like oh my gosh and uh some days

Intro: you're like i'm just gonna sleep in and other days

Intro: you're like okay i need to get out of bed and get some work done so

Intro: um but yeah it's not always uh

Intro: what you see uh instagram's showing

Intro: you just probably the smallest and just the best

Intro: parts um you know it's tough i mean you know from paying all your insurance

Intro: and guide fees and uh making sure that you're legal and all that it's it all adds up um So, again,

Intro: it's not just calling yourself a guide. It's really working hard at it.

Music: Yeah, it's funny you say that. I was talking to somebody earlier today and,

Music: you know, I was trying to explain to them they don't really fly fish,

Music: but we're kind of talking about the guide game and, you know,

Music: that whole disconnect where, like, you know, the client is there to have fun,

Music: but you're working, right?

Intro: Yes.

Music: And so that's a huge thing. And, you know, what they don't understand is,

Music: you know, if you meet them at 730, you probably got up at 530 to get the boat ready to do lunches.

Music: And then at the end of the day, you've got to go home and clean the boat out,

Music: you know, maybe wash it and get ready for the next day.

Music: And so, you know, a 10 or 12 day on the water is really a 16 hour day without doing anything.

Music: And, you know, it's funny because I talked to my buddies that got out West and

Music: it's like, you know, they got 13, 14 days in a row and they're so excited to

Music: get a laundry day. It's crazy.

Intro: Yeah exactly yeah i mean

Intro: uh it is uh yeah it's it's it's a tough life it's it's fun there is definitely

Intro: days where you're just like yeah this is exactly why i guide all the time and

Intro: i've you know i you try to have more of those days than days you're like oh

Intro: my gosh why did i decide to

Intro: do this for a living um but i mean and i i'm definitely not at that point i've

Intro: been doing this for a long time and every day i'm just happy to be out on the

Intro: water and that but it's uh.

Intro: Yeah. I mean, I have to do laundry and, uh, you know, we have some lodging at

Intro: our house and, and stuff.

Intro: And, uh, so yeah, I'm like making beds, all the glamorous stuff,

Intro: you know, going to the grocery and getting groceries for the next week and making

Intro: sure I've got everybody's, uh, uh, dietary needs taken care of,

Intro: uh, you know, so, and then making lunches that, uh, we're all going to be happy with.

Intro: I try to simplify it as best I can, but then sometimes I try to change it up

Intro: and maybe a little more gourmet.

Intro: If I got somebody that's like got a birthday or something special is going on,

Intro: or, um, you know, I, I've had some clients that have, uh, uh,

Intro: needs that, uh, you know, like celiac.

Intro: So I got to make sure everything's cleaned out. And, uh, so they,

Intro: you know, so they have a good day cause I don't want them to get sick or anything like that.

Intro: So, um, yeah, so it, it's a lot of, uh, planning.

Intro: Uh, I take a lot of notes, uh, with all my clients, so I know what's going on

Intro: and, and that, so I just, uh, yeah, I mean, it's long days.

Intro: I do try to, I'm definitely not doing the, uh, hours like I used to do when

Intro: I was a heavy equipment operator.

Intro: Some of those days were, almost 24 hours

Intro: straight but uh um yeah there's

Intro: days i get in late and then you know if you're hosting some

Intro: people now you're also spending more time with them afterwards and that and

Intro: i you know once you get done with that now you've got to come home and get ready

Intro: for the next day so uh we try to

Intro: be uh take care of ourselves though too because uh you don't want to get,

Intro: too over the top uh so that you have a meltdown in that so yeah.

Music: That's that's no good and you know the other thing too right is we talked about

Music: it a little bit you also guide for smallmouth and muskie right.

Intro: Yeah i i will run my boat for uh smallies pike and muskie um so i run a stealth

Intro: craft uh drift boat and then i just added a stealth craft raft uh so i'm one of their ambassadors,

Intro: and that's really broadened my...

Intro: Um repertoire for for guiding for fish um

Intro: you know the the driftless is awesome and

Intro: and all that but we're starting to see uh summers

Intro: where the temps are just getting way too hot for

Intro: the trout so we uh you know

Intro: years ago i was like you know i if i want

Intro: to be a more rounded guide i need to add this uh

Intro: aspect to fishing and and

Intro: it's kind of cool i've even uh i even do a little bit

Intro: of trout stuff early season i'll run

Intro: my boat uh for trout here in

Intro: the drift lists and one of the few spots you can get them

Intro: but uh yeah i mean smallies pike and musky that they're super fun uh adds a

Intro: whole new game to it uh the rods are much bigger you can uh you know the cool

Intro: part Part is you're in a boat and you can see some pretty cool water and all of those fish are, boy,

Intro: they love to eat and they put a good bend in your rod. So it's fun.

Music: And so are you chasing those guys kind of in the middle of the summer when it's

Music: kind of too hot for trout?

Music: So it's kind of trout early and trout late and then smallmouth,

Music: pike and muskie in the middle and maybe some muskie kind of at the end of the season?

Intro: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. When it starts getting too warm here,

Intro: it's an ideal time to switch over to smallmouths.

Intro: I kind of tell people I'm and like this year, especially we were even though we just got some water.

Intro: You know, I've got to make sure that the trout survive. So I will forego doing

Intro: trips here in the Driftless, even though I could probably find water that's cold enough.

Intro: But, um, so yeah, we'll definitely go after them, uh, during the hot months.

Intro: Um, I do a little bit of musky stuff after I'm done with my trout.

Intro: Like October 15th is the last day for trout in Wisconsin here.

Intro: And then I'll switch over and we start chasing, uh, musky for a little bit.

Intro: Uh, I usually go until about October, maybe a little bit into November.

Intro: And then I usually just kind of take a break.

Intro: I like to deer hunt in Missouri, so head to my grandparents' farm for that.

Intro: So I just kind of wrap it up. Usually by then things are getting cold,

Intro: and it's nice to take a break.

Intro: I'm usually pretty fried from guiding the whole season and that,

Intro: so it's good to take a break and rest.

Intro: You know, head and just kind of do my own thing, sit in the,

Intro: sit in the deer woods for a while and, and do that. So kind of a nice break.

Music: Yeah, absolutely. I wait for some guys to come eat some acorns, right?

Intro: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And, and they're pretty good eating too.

Intro: So don't mind filling the freezer with them.

Music: Yeah. And so, so PJ, what is a day on the water like like with you you want

Music: to kind of give folks an idea of like you know what what it looks like to get

Music: on a boat or to wade with you for a day.

Intro: Sure um so my

Intro: uh walk and wade stuff uh you know we'll just meet usually in the morning uh

Intro: depending on you know i may meet you in town or uh you know if you're staying

Intro: here at our place we get going we try to we may have breakfast i always try

Intro: to start with a good breakfast,

Intro: whether I've got to grab it at a gas station or something, but I always need

Intro: a little breakfast to get going.

Intro: So we'll either go to breakfast or make sure everybody's got breakfast. It's a good way to start.

Intro: And then we'll talk over what's going on.

Intro: And then we'll get out to the water fairly quick.

Intro: Again, depends on the conditions. If it's a warm one, we try to start pretty

Intro: early in the early, early season.

Intro: If it's really cold, I have no problem waiting a while until it gets a little

Intro: bit warmer out at 9.30, 10 o'clock time.

Intro: But during the late spring into summer part, we're probably getting going by

Intro: 7. And trying to get out to the water, I'll get everybody geared up.

Intro: I usually try to run down and check water temps real quick just to make sure

Intro: that the streams haven't warmed up too much.

Intro: Uh, and then, uh, once everybody's kind of geared up, we just, uh, get started.

Intro: We're, you know, we're rigging rods, uh, you know, starting in an area.

Intro: And especially if you're someone that I don't know, we'll go to a spot that's

Intro: maybe a little more open.

Intro: Um, cause you know, some people, uh, like to exaggerate how good a caster they are.

Intro: Um so yeah in about five minutes i can tell if

Intro: you're a good caster not a good caster need a little work and

Intro: need to get a little warmed up putting that but

Intro: uh yeah we'll be hitting some water with that's got

Intro: fish in it i kind of vary it up there's obviously

Intro: a lot of water here on the wisconsin side uh so we'll we'll hit different areas

Intro: uh then we usually break for lunch and then head back to the truck and we'll

Intro: either move or we'll just tailgate and have lunch on the back of the truck.

Intro: Or I've got a couple of spots that I can picnic and stuff like that.

Intro: So we'll have a lunch.

Intro: Again, I usually switch spots. It's kind of nice to vary it up.

Intro: And then we'll get back on the water after lunch and basically chase trout some more.

Intro: Um you know and we'll try to

Intro: fish for about eight hours give or take um you know if i start seeing bugs coming

Intro: off or we're getting to that uh you know almost like dark 30 time uh you know

Intro: we may stay out a little bit longer um some guys ask for kind of doing some

Intro: uh almost like night fishing,

Intro: and we can bury that up too usually at lunchtime we'll uh head back in and then

Intro: like kind of take a little siesta.

Intro: Uh recharge a little bit and then head out later in

Intro: the evening so there there's a lot of variable that we can

Intro: do with uh with my

Intro: kind of fishing uh obviously if we're in a boat we're doing it a little different

Intro: we're getting in the boat we're going down and having lunch on the river and

Intro: then you know so it's an a to b uh type trip um so yeah so once we're done we

Intro: just kind of wrap things up,

Intro: you know if someone's asking about flies we go over flies and stuff like that,

Intro: and then depending on what their schedule is we may go out to dinner,

Intro: you know maybe a cocktail on

Intro: the back of the truck or whatever or just had

Intro: our separate ways however people want it their day and often you know that's

Intro: that's kind of how it is it And hopefully everybody walks away happy and feel

Intro: they got fulfilled and doing some fishing with me.

Music: Pretty neat. And I know you mentioned this earlier. You and your wife are teaching

Music: some classes and workshops. You want to let folks know kind of what you have coming up?

Intro: Sure. We are, again, the way we learned was doing a trout school.

Intro: That's kind of how I met Bill Harrell.

Intro: And now that we do guiding and stuff, we figured we wanted to kind of help give

Intro: back and offer these classes as well.

Intro: And my wife is a certified casting instructor, so we do some trout schools.

Intro: We got a couple of basically beginner schools.

Intro: We're doing two of them. uh may

Intro: 4th and 5th is going to be a beginner class

Intro: um and it's co-ed uh we've got i believe we have two two filled and we still

Intro: have room for a couple more people and then may 18th and 19th my wife is doing

Intro: a women's beginner school for uh trout fishing um,

Intro: So, yeah, and then our program, we have lodging here, and then we also do breakfast and lunch for people.

Intro: So it's kind of all-inclusive. Dinner is usually out on the town.

Intro: That way we can help spread the wealth, and it helps show you what's around

Intro: town and all the fun little restaurants that are around the Driftless here.

Intro: And then we're hoping to do a smallmouth trip in July, get a couple of boats together and do that.

Intro: That's going to be July 12th to the 15th.

Intro: That one's still a little bit of a work in progress thing.

Intro: And then in August, August is kind of a fun time here in the Driftless.

Intro: We're going to do a hopper dropper mousing weekend. weekend

Intro: uh and that's august 16th and

Intro: 18th uh we hope people can

Intro: get here early on friday so we head out friday evening uh try to get into a

Intro: spot that's fairly easy to wade um it's close to the house and that and then

Intro: uh so we'll do some mousing then,

Intro: And then fish until it's pretty dark, until everybody's done,

Intro: usually around 10 o'clock in the evening, kind of wrap it up, head back to the house.

Intro: Get up early in the morning, do some hopper fishing, have lunch back at the

Intro: house and just kind of chill for most of the day.

Intro: And then we'll head out again in the evening after dinner and do some more mousing.

Intro: So we go over like the hoppers in the morning and that and then the mousing

Intro: in the evening. and then we finish up on Sunday, getting up and doing the hopper dropper game again.

Intro: So just some trips that we offer here, and they're all kind of fun, kind of different.

Intro: Again, the Smalley trip, again, we're trying to work with a couple other guides

Intro: that we know to help out with that.

Intro: That so it's uh hopefully gonna be that's one that we're kind of adding and

Intro: hoping that will uh will go over pretty well but the trout schools we've been

Intro: doing them for quite a while and they always uh it's always kind of fun so pretty.

Music: Cool and i imagine if i remember correctly all those classes are on your website right.

Intro: Yeah there's uh if you go to my website uh it's a pj guide or pjguideservice.com, you can look on there,

Intro: and it's kind of got a rundown of all those classes and it's a way to connect with me too.

Intro: You can, my phone number's there.

Intro: You can call or text and then obviously email me. So, yeah.

Music: And I'll drop a link to that in the show notes. And PJ, is there anything else

Music: you want to share with our listeners before i'll let you go tonight.

Intro: Um i don't

Intro: know i mean fly fishing has just been super fun um i just encourage anybody

Intro: that is into it just thinking about getting into it got into it over covid um

Intro: if you're looking for a fun challenging time uh come fish with us here and the Driftless.

Intro: But stick with it. It's definitely a sport that can...

Intro: Just kind of change you. It's a great way to kind of just forget all your problems for a little bit.

Intro: I definitely see that in myself, you know, when I need to get out there and

Intro: kind of, you know, take a minute and breathe. It's always fun to get out.

Intro: So, yeah, I mean, and fly fishing is definitely one of those sports that everybody is super helpful.

Intro: Helpful um we may not

Intro: always give you all our hot spots and that but we will

Intro: definitely uh try to help you with your casting

Intro: and everything so i mean that's that's the beauty of fly fishing it's just it's

Intro: been an awesome journey and we just feel so privileged to be able to help and

Intro: offer this and then also with my wife and i living here in the driftless is

Intro: just it's kind of a dream come true.

Intro: And we certainly didn't expect to be here when we first started dating.

Intro: It was not one of those things. But once we got married, boy,

Intro: we were into fly fishing then.

Intro: So yeah, I just hope everybody can have a chance to come here to the Driftless.

Music: Very, very neat. And I think I've got your website and I'll drop your phone

Music: number in the show notes you want to let folks know i would imagine you're probably

Music: an instagram guy you want to share your instagram handle before i let you go.

Intro: Tonight yeah so instagram is pj guides um,

Intro: on instagram there's there's yeah i think my logo is on there uh and that so

Intro: it's uh kind of a brook trout coming out of a uh a small stream in a pasture and that so,

Intro: So look us up. I try to post when I can.

Intro: So it's not all grip and grins on there either.

Intro: It's just, you know, some scenery and there's some cool pictures of trout now and again.

Intro: And some small mouth pictures and then kind of just life here in the driftless.

Intro: Yeah.

Music: Yeah. Well, very cool. Well, listen, PJ, I really appreciate you spending some

Music: time with me this evening.

Intro: Well, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure.

Intro: And yeah, I'm looking forward to talking some more with you at some point in time.

Intro: And, you know, if you need fishing reports, just let me know.

Music: Yeah, absolutely. And maybe our paths will cross on the water sometime soon.

Intro: Absolutely. Sounds great.

Music: Take care.

Intro: All righty.

PJ: Well, folks, I hope you enjoyed that as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you.

PJ: Don't forget to check out the show notes for more details on the Chocolate Factory

PJ: coming to Charlotte on May 4th. Tight lines, everybody.