Listen to the song

1. YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92FRHjqY-WI
2. Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/track/10QGEFiAS7ANZ8jLqEkKOE?si=0de83e5028dd4698
3. Apple Music - https://music.apple.com/us/song/bad-mans-song/1527555433
4. Amazon - https://music.amazon.com/albums/B08FTDNVPY?marketplaceId=ATVPDKIKX0DER&musicTerritory=US&ref=dm_sh_EkGTvVs5mPjm77WaMZQwNFsl6&trackAsin=B08FTDCT55

Key takeaways

1. Trist and Elaine discuss the unique stylistic departure of "Badman's Song" from Tears for Fears' typical new wave sound, highlighting its jazz, blues, and gospel influences, as well as its multi-movement structure reminiscent of classical music
2. Elaine and Trist analyze the song's lyrics, focusing on themes of sinfulness, redemption, and self-reflection, with references to church language and personal experiences, and the lyrics’ relationship to the gospel feel and Oleta Adams’ inclusion as a guest artist
3. Trist and Elaine dig into the topic live performance versus practicing alone, emphasizing the unique lessons learned on stage that cannot be replicated in a practice setting, while also acknowledging the importance of preparation and discipline during solo practice

About us

Trist Curless is a Los Angeles-based vocalist, educator, and sound engineer. As a performer, Trist has toured worldwide as a co-founder of the pop-jazz vocal group m-pact and a 10 year member of the Grammy-award winning The Manhattan Transfer. In addition to these two vocal powerhouse groups, he’s also performed with Take 6, Bobby McFerrin, New York Voices, Vox Audio, Naturally 7, and The Swingle Singers. His latest venture, The LHR Project, is a new vocal group collective celebrating legendary jazz vocal group Lambert, Hendricks, and Ross.

As an audio engineer, Trist has toured nationally with several vocal groups and bands in a large variety of venues, working for Grammy award winners Pentatonix and Take 6, as well as prominent a cappella vocal groups Straight No Chaser, VoicePlay, and Accent.

Elaine Chao, M.Ed is a San Francisco Bay Area-based vocalist, multi-instrumentalist, vocal percussionist, and songwriter whose career spans a cappella, contemporary worship, and classical music. She has leveraged her training in classical and choral music over the course of her contemporary performance, including in orchestras for musical theatre and in sacred spaces. In addition to music, she also is a martial artist and published author. She currently leads a product management team at a major software company dedicated to creative expression. All statements in this podcast are her own and do not reflect the opinions of her employer.

Elaine: Hey, Trist!

Elaine: What do we have this week?

Trist: This week.

Trist: We have a very cool band that I've always enjoyed, the band

Trist: Tears for Fears.

Elaine: Ohhh, okay.

Elaine: New wave.

Elaine: Got it.

Trist: Well, yes, that's an easy

Trist: instant thought and little

Trist: cubbyhole that you might put

Trist: them into.

Elaine: Mhm.

Trist: not this week's listen.

Trist: Um,

Elaine: Ah.

Trist: this particular tune, as many I like to do, not a stylistic

Trist: sound that you would expect when you hear that we're going to

Trist: have Tears for Fears today.

Elaine: Okay, cool.

Elaine: So what are we listening to?

Trist: This is, "Badman's Song."

Elaine: Oh!

Elaine: Okay, I've never heard of this before.

Elaine: Certainly

Trist: Yep.

Elaine: not one of the ones that was very popular.

Trist: So yeah, not on one of the

Trist: albums that you probably know of

Trist: the most.

Trist: This is on, I believe, the third

Trist: album called The Seeds of Love,

Trist: the album just after the big,

Trist: big hits.

Elaine: Okay, cool.

Trist: The fun thing about that,

Trist: historically, you have big

Trist: enough hit songs on big records

Trist: like that.

Trist: The label kind of thinks you can do no wrong, and they give you

Trist: more time and more money and more artistic license.

Trist: And sometimes that's beneficial

Trist: to us listeners and sometimes

Trist: it's not.

Trist: I think in this case it was beneficial.

Trist: They got to do some other things than the right inside the lines

Trist: that we'd always heard.

Elaine: Okay, well, I can't wait to listen to it.

Elaine: We're going to drop the links to the song into the show notes.

Elaine: But before we pause to listen to

Elaine: the song, Trist, can you remind

Elaine: us how we should be listening to

Elaine: music as we're trying to focus

Elaine: on listening to music like a

Elaine: musician?

Trist: Well, as always, love to say thank you for listening.

Trist: Wherever you are, we appreciate having you.

Trist: And if you do have the ability to listen in a better way, in

Trist: nicer headphones, in nicer speakers, especially this week

Trist: will be beneficial.

Trist: It's a little bit of a longer listen.

Trist: So please accommodate that if you are able.

Elaine: Okay. And with that, we'll see you in just a moment.

Elaine: And we are back.

Elaine: Okay. That was a complete trip.

Elaine: Like it was.

Elaine: I don't want to say all over the

Elaine: place, but it was definitely a

Elaine: big surprise all across the

Elaine: board.

Trist: And ironically, on the album, it's probably the most like that

Trist: stays the course of any song.

Trist: There are lots of sonic

Trist: adventures, even the hit from

Trist: this was "Sowing the Seeds of

Trist: Love."

Trist: And it's amazing.

Trist: the reason I didn't choose that

Trist: one because it would need like

Trist: four episodes.

Trist: We would have to have an entire podcast about each section of

Trist: that particular song.

Trist: So if you're listening, go ahead and check that one out too.

Trist: Anyway, this one, even though it has some twists and turns, it

Trist: kind of stays in the same vibe.

Elaine: Yeah. I mean, it was interesting for me to think about as I was

Elaine: listening to it, actually, as I was reflecting on it afterwards.

Elaine: There is a sense of multiple

Elaine: movements in the song, and it

Elaine: made me think about some of the

Elaine: classical music that I've played

Elaine: whether it's a sonata or some

Elaine: kind of a larger piece that has

Elaine: multiple distinct movements,

Elaine: where each one is a very

Elaine: different type of theme, it's a

Elaine: very different type of feel, and

Elaine: yet it all holds together as

Elaine: one.

Elaine: Is that something that you heard?

Trist: I don't think of it in that way.

Trist: But when you mention it, it makes perfect sense to me.

Trist: At the same time, it's a bit of a jam, it has multiple

Trist: personalities, like you said.

Trist: But I love that about it.

Trist: It comes back to some certain themes or certain little riffs.

Trist: And yeah, I love the additional vocals from Oleta Adams.

Trist: Now she's featured on the first three songs of this album, but

Trist: then not on the rest of it.

Trist: And cool story about her, they heard her, I believe it was like

Trist: mid eighties, eighty five or so, they were on tour.

Trist: Again, touring "Shout" and

Trist: "Everybody Wants to Rule the

Trist: World," the songs that everybody

Trist: knows.

Trist: And in Kansas City, there was a lounge at the hotel, and she was

Trist: the singer at the lounge, and they just really took to her.

Trist: They really liked listening to

Trist: her And they'd always remembered

Trist: her.

Trist: I think they might have said

Trist: hello to her in person or

Trist: something.

Trist: And people from the hotel said, oh yeah, the Tears for Fears

Trist: guys are here.

Trist: She was doing her music wasn't

Trist: anything like, "Shout" or

Trist: "Everybody Wants to Rule the

Trist: World."

Trist: So she just thought, oh that's cool.

Trist: It's nice that those boys stopped in and they liked it.

Trist: And then they came back and

Trist: basically wanted to take her

Trist: back to England with them and

Trist: record.

Trist: That's how much they loved what she was doing.

Trist: And after some convincing, Well,

Trist: thank goodness for us she did

Trist: and helped start her career a

Trist: little bit more than what she

Trist: was doing.

Elaine: I think it's kind of amazing to think about how we as artists

Elaine: can uplift other artists.

Elaine: I think we heard that in some of the songs that we have reviewed

Elaine: before, whether it was Ladysmith Black Mambazo with Paul Simon or

Elaine: with Kenny Loggins track that we covered earlier that had a

Elaine: couple of up and coming singers on it as well.

Elaine: It's really interesting to think

Elaine: about how we as artists can help

Elaine: to uplift others and help to

Elaine: leverage them into the next

Elaine: level.

Trist: Totally I think that's a bit of a factor.

Trist: I would guess there's also a bit of like, "Oh, I want some of

Trist: that sound in my music, and we don't have any of the people in

Trist: our circle right now that go to the studio when we make records

Trist: that do that thing, we love it.

Trist: Let's not find something that's like it.

Trist: Let's just ask her.

Trist: Oh, remember that singer we really liked?

Trist: Let's find someone like her.

Trist: But when you're kind of at that level where you've had the big

Trist: hits and you've got the good budgets to do whatever you want,

Trist: it's like, no, let's go get the sound that we really liked.

Trist: So I think that's cool.

Trist: I don't think you're wrong at all.

Trist: I think that's definitely a part of it.

Trist: in terms of just wanting to

Trist: support, but I think

Trist: artistically is even more like,

Trist: oh, that's a sound we'd love on

Trist: this record.

Trist: And the two of us that currently sing on the records can't do

Trist: that sound that we want to add to our music.

Trist: So they went out and got it.

Elaine: Yeah, I think it also fits

Elaine: really well in with the lyrics

Elaine: as I was taking a look at it,

Elaine: there's a whole lot of I don't

Elaine: want to say like churchy lyrics

Elaine: in there, but definitely things

Elaine: about lies and like being bad

Elaine: and redemption.

Elaine: There is the lyric "foods for the saints" in the chorus.

Elaine: I feel like all of that feeds

Elaine: into the gospel choir, the

Elaine: church environment, the church

Elaine: language.

Elaine: This whole theme about sinfulness and redemption that

Elaine: happens within the song that I think they want to just surface

Elaine: just to the feel of the song and in certain aspects of it.

Trist: Yeah. The gospel and soul sounds that she had when they heard

Trist: her, that's obviously why they went right to her for a sound

Trist: that would fit, with this thing that we're working on.

Elaine: Yeah, I also was thinking about it as I was analyzing each one

Elaine: of the different sections.

Elaine: So there was a section at the

Elaine: very beginning that I put, as

Elaine: jazz, there's a lot of high hats

Elaine: going on.

Elaine: But then I was also thinking about, there is this kind of

Elaine: Black church music tradition of very intense piano and drums

Elaine: going on at the same time that I think really fits in.

Elaine: So do you think it was more of a jazz intro or more of a gospel

Trist: Mm!

Elaine: soul intro?

Trist: Yeah, I have the same feeling as you.

Trist: I think when I very first heard it, it's like, oh, it's very

Trist: kind of jazzy, bluesy, adjacent.

Trist: and again, especially a surprise because you go in whether we

Trist: choose to or not.

Trist: We know the band, and I think

Trist: this is maybe the second song on

Trist: the album.

Trist: So the first song isn't anything like this.

Trist: And none of their other hits are like this.

Trist: And so you hear this.

Trist: And so it's definitely relative to the other music.

Trist: It's definitely more jazz and

Trist: blues related, for sure, when it

Trist: starts.

Trist: You have a feeling that again,

Trist: it's going to be a little bit

Trist: open.

Trist: You might hear a bunch of solos and it might be long.

Trist: I think is what I, what I thought and I wasn't wrong.

Trist: It is.

Elaine: Yeah, at 8 minutes and 30 seconds, definitely is one of

Elaine: the longer songs that

Trist: Yeah.

Elaine: we've reviewed.

Trist: Not one of the singles on the album for sure.

Elaine: You know, one of the things that came to mind as I was listening

Elaine: to this piece is the influence of other genres.

Elaine: And what came to mind was Bohemian Rhapsody

Trist: Hmm.

Elaine: and the influence of choral music, but also just this

Elaine: overblown, operatic sound that comes out in the second half of

Elaine: the song and also the different movements, right, that that you

Elaine: hear in Bohemian Rhapsody.

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: And there was something about that that really triggered that

Elaine: memory for me in thinking about, there was this little thing that

Elaine: was introduced that seemed very much like that.

Elaine: And I had to think about, oh, is

Elaine: that something that was

Elaine: contemporary?

Elaine: And it turns out it was actually ten years earlier.

Elaine: But

Trist: Right.

Elaine: I'm kind of curious about how

Elaine: you think these different

Elaine: influences into rock from other

Elaine: music traditions really comes

Elaine: into the production of some of

Elaine: these albums that might be more

Elaine: experimental or more thematic,

Elaine: or just a little bit more

Elaine: exploratory, like you were

Elaine: saying before, once you've made

Elaine: a couple of big hit albums, you

Elaine: maybe have a little more

Elaine: creative flexibility or given

Elaine: options to really explore

Elaine: musically.

Elaine: I'm very interested in hearing how you think this might have

Elaine: worked for them.

Trist: Yeah. especially because of her sound and background, I think I

Trist: hear those sections definitely more kind of gospelly, and I

Trist: think the vibe from her.

Trist: She plays piano as well.

Trist: I know she plays piano and I know she plays on the album.

Trist: I'm forgetting exactly if she actually plays piano on this,

Trist: but I think she does also.

Trist: So I think all of that, just the feel of it, um, probably harkens

Trist: back to the songs that they heard her play.

Trist: I think this probably is as much the kind of thing that they,

Trist: brought her into the fold for as anything, even though the other

Trist: two songs that she sings, aren't really like this one.

Trist: But yeah, I think that totally happens.

Trist: you let the lyric and the vibe of the next section, go to the

Trist: experience of what you've heard that might fit.

Trist: So, if you're feeling there's a

Trist: section you generally hearken to

Trist: a vibe and a sound that you've

Trist: heard before that kind of fits

Trist: that.

Trist: So, no surprise to me at all that these different movements,

Trist: as you call them, do have different attributes to them.

Elaine: Yeah, well, let's switch gears a

Elaine: little bit and talk about the

Elaine: lyrics, because I found these

Elaine: absolutely fascinating.

Elaine: one of the things that I dug into as I was trying to do some

Elaine: background research into it was the number 628.

Elaine: So I was reading about it, and it was really funny to read some

Elaine: of the backstory.

Elaine: Now, I don't know how much of

Elaine: this directly came from them or

Elaine: whether it's some kind of lore,

Elaine: but there was some talk about,

Elaine: 628 as being a hotel room

Elaine: number.

Trist: Mm.

Elaine: And one of the pieces of lore is that after the gigs, they would

Elaine: rent out a room at the hotel that they were staying in for

Elaine: the party room.

Elaine: And so the one for that particular gig was 628.

Elaine: And so that happened to be right next door to the guy who wrote

Elaine: the song, and he ended up overhearing what they were

Elaine: saying, and there was a lot of trash talking happening.

Trist: Ah. Yeah. Kind of bad mouthing him, making him, Roland, being

Trist: the bad man.

Trist: Yes.

Elaine: Yeah.

Trist: Okay,

Elaine: And so

Trist: I'm

Elaine: I think

Trist: remembering

Elaine: that there was

Trist: that anecdote

Elaine: something

Trist: now.

Trist: Yeah. Right.

Elaine: that was highly entertaining to

Elaine: me, but it was also really

Elaine: telling to me of just some of

Elaine: the themes that he was

Elaine: exploring, because there was

Elaine: gossip happening.

Elaine: And he took that experience and

Elaine: really crafted it into this

Elaine: song, thinking a little bit more

Elaine: about reputation, thinking a

Elaine: little bit more about

Elaine: redemption.

Elaine: And I was looking at the bridge

Elaine: because the chorus really talks

Elaine: about like, there's a mirror,

Elaine: you know, there's like

Elaine: self-reflection going on and all

Elaine: the things that people see in

Elaine: here.

Elaine: It's like food for the people who are judging me.

Elaine: And so it talks about, you know, the hope that comes out of that.

Elaine: But in the bridge there's this theme that says Faith can move

Elaine: mountains / fire can cleanse your soul / faith can move

Elaine: mountains / but mind over matter won't stop all your chatter."

Elaine: And so it's an interesting

Elaine: couplet that there is there and

Elaine: I think that there is something

Elaine: there that links into the church

Elaine: celebration, the concept of

Elaine: saints being, related to church

Elaine: experience.

Elaine: And so I just thought it was interesting that the 628 and he

Elaine: loops back to it, right?

Elaine: He loops back to it in verse three, he says, "I heard every

Elaine: word that was said that night."

Trist: Right.

Elaine: And then he keeps on going.

Elaine: He's like "Sweet talking boys

Elaine: who can do no wrong / when the

Elaine: stories are tall as the day is

Elaine: long."

Elaine: And so I felt like it was a very pointed kind of song.

Elaine: It was like

Trist: Right.

Elaine: specifically to, hey, this particular experience.

Elaine: And maybe it was an unpleasant experience.

Elaine: Maybe he wrote it as revenge, I don't know, but

Trist: Right.

Elaine: it was.

Trist: That's cool.

Trist: But also, it caused him to look at himself.

Trist: Oh, if they're saying that, that doesn't come out of thin air.

Elaine: Yeah.

Trist: Um, so there's equal bits of, calling it out, but then.

Trist: Huh?

Trist: I'm calling this out, and "You don't know my life!

Trist: You don't know what I'm dealing with!" But the reality is

Trist: they're saying this so, again, look at yourself.

Trist: My favorite, second bridge almost.

Trist: With them, it's hard to even just call them a section.

Trist: The section that's the "Look at yourself / See how you lie /

Trist: Your hands start shaking / and you don't know why."

Trist: So that's another aside like,

Trist: okay, I've said all these bad

Trist: things about you saying bad

Trist: things about me, but now that

Trist: you mention it, maybe there's

Trist: something there.

Trist: So it's pretty cool that, okay, well, I'm the bad man.

Trist: Here's my bad man song.

Trist: Like this jam, get it off your chest.

Trist: So cool.

Elaine: Yeah. one thing that I was also suddenly thinking about is the

Elaine: relationship between songwriting and personal experience versus

Elaine: something that might be a little bit more intellectual or fits

Elaine: into a specific scenario.

Elaine: And the reason I think of this

Elaine: is that I've written both very

Elaine: personal songs, things that have

Elaine: come from the heart, as well as

Elaine: songs for musicals, where it is

Elaine: really from a particular

Elaine: character trying to move the

Elaine: story along.

Elaine: And do you think that there is

Elaine: any emotional difference between

Elaine: the personal song or the more

Elaine: story song that comes from

Elaine: either something that you read

Elaine: or something

Trist: Hmm.

Elaine: you know, some story that you're

Elaine: telling internally or some

Elaine: character that you're trying to

Elaine: narrate?

Trist: Ah, I don't necessarily know

Trist: that there's a difference there,

Trist: because the thing you're talking

Trist: about is created by the

Trist: listener.

Trist: So the listener, whether you got

Trist: it from whatever angle you have

Trist: when you're writing it, is of

Trist: its own.

Trist: And what someone else hears or reads into and how emotional or

Trist: how how personal it is to them is their own experience, Does

Trist: that make any sense?

Trist: Um,

Elaine: I think

Trist: so

Elaine: it

Trist: even

Elaine: does.

Trist: though you might you might think of it differently because of

Trist: your source material, or I'm writing about this.

Trist: I'm writing for this.

Trist: But I think that's what the

Trist: really good songs do is even

Trist: though we've just talked about

Trist: this song.

Trist: Oh, a member of the band overheard part of his crew

Trist: talking about him, and then the words mean one thing, but if you

Trist: never know that anecdote, you can pull out all kinds of other

Trist: meanings, just general meanings from these lyrics.

Trist: And you can maybe attach something that's even more

Trist: meaningful to you than it would be if you knew the story.

Trist: So that stuff is determined by

Trist: the listener after you've kind

Trist: of let it go and put it out in

Trist: the world.

Elaine: Yeah, I could see that.

Elaine: I think one other thing that pops to mind as you're sharing

Elaine: some of that is that especially in a lot of pop music nowadays,

Elaine: the songwriting is not even done by the artist.

Elaine: And so if

Trist: True.

Elaine: we're in a situation where we're

Elaine: ascribing some kind of personal

Elaine: attachment or personal

Elaine: relationship between what

Elaine: someone is singing and the

Elaine: actual words that they're

Elaine: singing.

Elaine: It might be more of a falsehood because, you know, there's an

Elaine: entire industry around songwriting and an entire

Elaine: industry around singing things that other people have written.

Elaine: Now,

Trist: Right?

Elaine: certainly there are singer songwriters out there who write

Elaine: from the heart.

Elaine: Taylor Swift was recently inducted into the Songwriters

Elaine: Hall of Fame.

Elaine: And I feel like there is a role of both singer songwriter but

Elaine: also singer who sings other people's songs and

Trist: Right.

Elaine: really sells it.

Trist: Well, yeah.

Trist: that's I was going to say the singer then that didn't write

Trist: the song, but it's a really, really well written song.

Trist: That would be the goal is when you're almost surprised that

Trist: they didn't write it, because it feels like it's such a personal

Trist: experience that they must have written that the way that they

Trist: sing that, you can tell they really had this experience and

Trist: they've either attached whatever the lyricist put in and attached

Trist: it to their own life or made their own thing out of it.

Trist: But that's the trick.

Trist: That's the goal of the singer in that instance.

Trist: And, just stepping back a minute, you mentioned that,

Trist: these days that's the case.

Trist: That's been around for quite a

Trist: while, singers who don't

Trist: necessarily write their own

Trist: songs, but they're really great

Trist: at telling the stories and

Trist: delivering the songs, and

Trist: they've got a great instrument

Trist: and they're really good

Trist: storytellers.

Trist: But maybe aren't as strong at writing their own things.

Trist: So that's not necessarily new.

Trist: However, it's definitely a lot of pop music today for sure.

Elaine: Yeah, I think the reason I say that is that we don't seem to

Elaine: ascribe the same kind of thing to Broadway performers or people

Elaine: who are in opera.

Elaine: We don't expect them to have

Elaine: authored the thing that they're

Elaine: singing.

Trist: Mm.

Elaine: And I

Trist: True.

Elaine: feel like the expectation maybe

Elaine: of pop, because we do have very

Elaine: strong singer songwriters out

Elaine: there who do write their own

Elaine: music,

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: is that they are more of the

Elaine: singer songwriter versus the

Elaine: singer who is singing other

Elaine: people's songs.

Trist: Yeah.

Elaine: Well, is there anything else that you want to say about this

Elaine: song before we move on?

Trist: Um I guess just revisiting where we started to close, just,

Trist: another example of maybe not a song you would expect from a

Trist: particular artist because you've heard other songs of theirs.

Trist: I think we've had several of those throughout the pod so far

Trist: where, you might see the name of an artist, but then the song

Trist: that we chose didn't live up to the sound that you had in your

Trist: head of what that person did.

Trist: I guess subconsciously, part of my continual strive to just have

Trist: people really open their ears to different things and get away

Trist: from a stereotypical thing that I'll hear people say, especially

Trist: if people if they're not musicians, which this is totally

Trist: fine, and it makes sense and they don't mean anything by it.

Trist: But I think the implications

Trist: just kind of bother me when it's

Trist: "whatever happened to...?" That

Trist: phrase.

Trist: In a previous artist we talked about, "Whatever happened to

Trist: Kenny Loggins?" It's like, well, nothing happened to him.

Trist: Just because you stopped listening to him doesn't mean he

Trist: stopped making music, some of it even more amazing.

Trist: Anyway, this is another example of that.

Trist: and actually it really does fit because "whatever happened to

Trist: Tears for Fears?" Well, they just made and toured an album

Trist: for the last five years.

Trist: So they're actually still doing it or doing it again.

Trist: And who knows, maybe down the road we'll get into something

Trist: from their newest album.

Trist: It's also very good.

Trist: I really liked this newest album and saw them in concert and

Trist: heard this song live.

Trist: I was dying to hear this song live.

Trist: Of all their music, as much as I

Trist: wanted to hear some hits that I

Trist: knew, I was definitely thinking,

Trist: okay, if there's any song that

Trist: should be required for them to

Trist: play in every set, it would be

Trist: this one.

Trist: It's such a live vibe.

Trist: And I was beginning to think it

Trist: wasn't going to happen, and then

Trist: it did.

Trist: And so I was very happy when I

Trist: heard this one, it was very

Trist: cool.

Trist: So it's a good lesson maybe

Trist: that, some musicians can be more

Trist: than the thing that you know

Trist: about them,

Elaine: Yeah, I will say that this was a big surprise to me and quite a

Elaine: sonic experience, so thank you for introducing it.

Elaine: It was a little bit longer than I expected, but It was

Elaine: definitely worth the listen.

Elaine: So thank you.

Trist: Absolutely.

Elaine: Okay. And so with that we're going to move on to our next

Elaine: segment, which is.

Trist: Mail mail mail mail mail bag, mail mail mail mail mail bag.

Trist: Mail bag.

Elaine: That's right.

Elaine: The mailbag.

Elaine: So first of all, if you're

Elaine: interested in reaching out to

Elaine: us, please talk to us via

Elaine: Instagram or Threads at

Elaine: @themusiciansloupe that is

Elaine: L-O-U-P-E.

Elaine: Or you can email us at themusiciansloupe@gmail.com.

Trist: Exactly.

Trist: contact us anywhere if you have your thoughts.

Trist: Maybe you saw Tears for Fears in concert sometime.

Trist: Maybe you've always liked this song.

Trist: Maybe you never heard this song.

Trist: Maybe you like the rest of the album.

Trist: Whatever.

Trist: Anything you have to add about

Trist: this discussion, we'd love to

Trist: hear.

Elaine: Awesome.

Elaine: So this particular question comes from Echo on Threads.

Elaine: That is @prodbyecho_.

Elaine: And this is from November of 2025.

Elaine: This person writes, one gig is greater than (that's like the

Elaine: numeric greater than sign) ten hours of practicing alone.

Elaine: The stage teaches what the bedroom studio never will.

Trist: That's

Elaine: Agree

Trist: pretty.

Elaine: or disagree?

Trist: The general principle, absolutely.

Trist: You could fudge whether it's,

Trist: ten hours of practice, you could

Trist: move the numbers around, but the

Trist: general principle, I totally get

Trist: that.

Trist: Yeah.

Trist: In many things I've been

Trist: involved in, but especially when

Trist: I was in m-pact, my, five or six

Trist: guys a cappella, we would

Trist: constantly have discussions when

Trist: it was time to do a tune in the

Trist: show.

Trist: We would rehearse it and we

Trist: would be right at a point where

Trist: about half of the group thought,

Trist: no, we need two or three more

Trist: rehearsals before this is good

Trist: enough.

Trist: And then another faction be like, no, we just need one show

Trist: and then it'll be good enough.

Trist: So a lot of times it was like, oh, we'll throw out there when

Trist: it's ninety percent ready and then it'll be one hundred

Trist: percent ready after we've done it for a show or two.

Trist: rather than another week's worth of rehearsals.

Trist: So, yeah, there's definitely a lot to be learned in practicing.

Trist: the practice alone is definitely

Trist: important, but, boy, you learn a

Trist: lot more and just different

Trist: things.

Trist: you learn A lot more real world

Trist: stuff when you're out there than

Trist: you imagine it when you're

Trist: practicing.

Trist: even in the course of your show.

Trist: "Oh, we'll have to pause right

Trist: here for this because this is

Trist: what the crowd is going to do,"

Trist: And then you get there and it's

Trist: twice as long or half as long as

Trist: you thought, or the reaction is

Trist: not what you expected, or

Trist: someone has a reaction in the

Trist: middle of a song that you didn't

Trist: anticipate.

Trist: You just don't know until it's out there.

Trist: So yeah, this general sentiment I'm all for.

Trist: "The stage teaches what the bedroom studio never will."

Trist: Yeah, true.

Trist: Very true.

Elaine: Ooh, so this is one where I disagree with you.

Elaine: And it was interesting for me to think through why I had such a

Elaine: strong reaction to it.

Elaine: Part of it is that I feel like it's a false dichotomy.

Elaine: What you had said earlier about what you learned in both

Elaine: locations is different.

Elaine: I agree with that.

Elaine: I one hundred percent agree with the lessons that you learn are

Elaine: completely different between when you're practicing versus

Elaine: when you're on stage.

Elaine: I would also argue that the

Elaine: lessons that you learn on stage

Elaine: are different than the lessons

Elaine: that you learn while recording,

Elaine: right?

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: If you're making something and you're under a deadline, and I

Elaine: think part of it is that the type of feedback that you get in

Elaine: each location is different.

Elaine: For instance, if I'm practicing alone, a lot of times I am

Elaine: trying to master.

Elaine: I am trying to go through and either memorize things or try to

Elaine: feel things in my voice, if I'm doing something vocally.

Elaine: I'm working things out.

Elaine: There are lots of tiny little

Elaine: details that I want to work

Elaine: through before I get in front of

Elaine: someone.

Elaine: If I do a gig that's unprepared, it doesn't help me.

Elaine: It actually just increases my panic.

Elaine: But if I do it at that ninety percent, ninety five percent

Elaine: that you were talking about, it does teach me a lot.

Elaine: It does teach me a lot about being in the moment, but I think

Elaine: that there are certain lessons that I learn in practicing

Elaine: alone, things that I've learned over decades of practicing

Elaine: alone, having to do with discipline, having to do with

Elaine: how to study music.

Elaine: Things that I absolutely know that you know how to do,

Elaine: backwards and forward.

Elaine: Like how do you prepare for a rehearsal?

Elaine: How do you prepare for a gig?

Elaine: There is a certain amount of preparation that's involved in

Elaine: that to make sure that you are ready to go.

Elaine: So I think that what you learn is different.

Elaine: I think that there is a certain amount of social pressure that

Elaine: you will feel, and that actually helps you to level up a bit.

Elaine: And I agree with that.

Elaine: But I wouldn't discard ten hours of practicing for one gig.

Trist: So the way that the tweet is

Trist: written there, there are two

Trist: different sentiments.

Trist: the first thing that says one gig is greater than ten hours of

Trist: practicing alone is different from the statement the stage

Trist: teaches you what the bedroom studio never will.

Trist: The first one is qualitative,

Trist: saying that the one gig is

Trist: greater than.

Trist: That's more valuable than the practicing alone.

Trist: But then the statement after it

Trist: just says that they're

Trist: different.

Trist: "The stage teaches what the bedroom studio never will."

Trist: So a little bit of semantics of how it's written.

Trist: I would agree mostly just that they're different that.

Trist: Yeah, the being on the stage will teach you stuff that you

Trist: can't learn alone, but that doesn't mean you don't do it.

Trist: I don't think the intention of

Trist: the statement is, yeah, ten

Trist: hours of practicing alone is

Trist: useless.

Trist: I don't think that's that at all.

Trist: It's just that, oh, wow, I did

Trist: that ten hours of practicing on

Trist: my own.

Trist: Okay, I feel like this one thing.

Trist: Then I went and did it, and it feels I would almost say it's

Trist: almost equal, like.

Trist: Oh, wow.

Trist: I went from zero to eighty percent and I went to the last

Trist: twenty percent was just getting it on stage.

Trist: to me, that's the sentiment I derive from it.

Trist: I think of it more like, just that it's a different thing.

Trist: Yes.

Trist: Do all your preparation, but

Trist: just don't forget that it's a

Trist: whole different ball game when

Trist: you go to do it on the actual

Trist: gig.

Elaine: Yeah, I would agree with that, saying that it is different.

Elaine: And at the same time, you can leverage other performance

Elaine: experiences that you have to map your practice into performance.

Elaine: Like think of all the times that you've been out on stage and

Elaine: something bad has happened.

Elaine: Like how do you react to it?

Elaine: sound's gone out.

Elaine: someone starts on the wrong key.

Elaine: There's a bunch of stuff that happens.

Trist: Right.

Elaine: And I think what I reacted to was the inherent value statement

Trist: Sure.

Elaine: The greater

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: than implied that the value was

Elaine: different between them, but I

Elaine: would agree that it is

Elaine: different.

Trist: And also,

Elaine: So in.

Trist: I guess it depends on the art that you're talking about.

Trist: I think there are certain disciplines.

Trist: What, are we talking about ballet?

Trist: Are we talking about jazz music at a club?

Trist: Are we talking about a concert recital?

Trist: You know what I mean?

Trist: We could say, we could fudge the numbers.

Trist: The one gig greater than ten hours.

Trist: We could move those numbers in different directions depending

Trist: on what the discipline is.

Trist: Symphony orchestra?

Trist: The practicing that the symphony

Trist: orchestra does and then plays it

Trist: on stage, I would suggest that

Trist: there isn't as much difference

Trist: there.

Trist: Yeah, it's different, but those rehearsals are a lot more

Trist: similar than I think the soloist with the piano player.

Trist: especially if there's

Trist: improvisation involved, So I

Trist: think the different disciplines

Trist: could call on the gig getting

Trist: them polished differently

Trist: depending on what the discipline

Trist: is.

Elaine: So we've identified three different arenas where we'd say

Elaine: things are different.

Elaine: So there's practice alone.

Elaine: There is gig, I guess we have an

Elaine: interim in there, which is like

Elaine: practice together.

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: And then there is recording.

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: Are there any other avenues where you feel like the lessons

Elaine: are different than those, where you've experienced some kind of

Elaine: learning or some kind of, practice or experience that has

Elaine: leveled you up?

Trist: the only thing I can think of would be is if you're actually

Trist: directing or producing.

Trist: if you're the one in charge of the ensemble, if you're the

Trist: leader, you've got to practice the music, but then you've got

Trist: to learn what everybody's supposed to be doing and figure

Trist: out what's most important, whether it's for a studio or for

Trist: live, get that stuff together.

Elaine: Actually, that triggered a thought for me, which was along

Elaine: the lines of coaching or

Trist: Mmhm!

Elaine: having someone externally give you feedback.

Elaine: It's a

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: different type of preparation,

Elaine: whether it's in a master class,

Elaine: you have someone who's coming in

Elaine: to consult.

Elaine: I've done some theatre work with people where they've brought in

Elaine: external directors to help you to level up,

Trist: Sure.

Elaine: and I feel like that's another avenue.

Elaine: But I'm, just thinking through the different ways where you

Elaine: actually learn lessons, You just don't learn it by yourself.

Elaine: There are lots of different types of lessons that you learn

Elaine: in different types of contexts.

Trist: Indeed.

Elaine: Yeah, well, any last thoughts about this?

Trist: no. That's it.

Trist: That's a good one.

Trist: Thank

Elaine: Okay.

Trist: you, Echo.

Elaine: So with that we're going to wrap up.

Elaine: Thank you all for joining us this week.

Elaine: And we will see you next week.

Trist: See you soon.

Trist: Oh, it's so cool.

Trist: It's so unexpected and so cool.

Trist: I love it, okay.

Elaine: Okay, let me back up.

Trist: I think I probably said that exact thing in that episode.

Elaine: I was trying really hard not to interrupt you to say, like

Elaine: "House on Pooh Corner!

Elaine: House on Pooh Corner!" Because,

Elaine: like, Kenny Loggins also did

Elaine: that

Trist: Yeah.

Elaine: one.

Trist: No. Of course.

Trist: I'm like, what are you waiting for?

Trist: Oh yeah.

Trist: Right.

Trist: The thing that I like to say right here and then I was like,

Trist: wait, what is the thing I like to say right here?

Trist: Oh, right.