In this episode, we sit down with Joel from Heidi Build and Andrew “Hoppo” from Hoppo Construction for a no-script, no-agenda chat.

It starts with what makes tradie creators actually work online: being approachable, having an opinion, and showing up as yourself. Joel breaks down why the polished, curated Instagram approach did nothing for him, then the one raw timber-quality rant that finally cut through.

From there, we get into the stuff people don’t always say out loud. The stigma that tradies aren’t intelligent, why that stereotype still lingers, and the moment Joel’s own brother hit him with the line: “I’m not one of your dumb tradie mates.” We talk about what that does to your confidence, especially when you come from a culture where university is seen as the only “good” path.

It also turns into a proper Mindful Builder conversation about bullying, body image, and parenting. Hamish shares what it’s like watching your kid go through it, and Joel talks about how he handles it at home by listening, asking questions, and helping his kids feel heard.

We also cover the real side of “influencing” in the trades: DeWalt vs Makita, how brand partnerships actually work when they’re not forced, why you shouldn’t monetise too early, and what happens when you say yes to something that doesn’t align.

CHAPTER MARKERS

00:00 Introduction

00:18 What Makes Tradie Creators Work: Confidence and Being Approachable

01:22 Why Curated Instagram Content Failed

03:00 DeWalt vs Makita: How Tool Sponsorships Actually Work

09:33 Feeling Valued: Why DeWalt Support Helped Them Lean Into Content

11:22 Quick Tradie Eats and the Misconceptions About Tradespeople

13:12 “Tradies Are Dumb”: The Stigma and Why It Still Exists

24:10 Confidence, Bullying, and Being the Overweight Kid at School

26:25 Parenting Through Bullying: Listening, Questions, and Helping Kids Feel Heard

31:50 Team Culture and Leadership: Honesty, Vulnerability, and Check-Ins

37:00 The “Wellness Survey” Debate: Corporate Systems vs Trade Reality

45:27 Influencer Goals: Cars, GM, and Brand Partnerships That Fit Your Identity

Our Sponsors:

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MEGT - https://mindful-builder.captivate.fm/megt

Connect with Andrew - Hopkins Construction

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hopkinsconstruction/?hl=en

Connect with Andrew

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/joel_heidibuild/?hl=en

Connect with us on Instagram: @themindfulbuilderpod

Connect with Hamish:

Instagram: @sanctumhomes

Website: www.yoursanctum.com.au/

Connect with Matt:

Instagram: @carlandconstructions

Website: www.carlandconstructions.com/

Mentioned in this episode:

Proclima Sponsor

We've got Joel from Heidi Build, we've got Hoppo from Hoppo Construction in,

we've got Hamish from Hamish From that.

Uh, we- and there's no plan.

There's like, there's no, but three of us have notepads.

I don't know why because there's no script for this one.

All I've, all I've, all I've written down here- All up the road,

yeah

is Joel and Hoppo.

Yeah.

So that's about it.

There's the plan.

No, it's

aesthetics.

It's- So what, what have we most influenced you, like singly,

what have we most inf- what, what would you put us down to?

Like, all right, I think of Hoppo or I think of Joel, I think of what?

Confidence.

I think- Influenced your confidence

now this is a really good, this is a really good question because I think

it's good feedback for you guys, too.

When I watch your stuff, I find it really, um, uh, I, like, uh…

What am, what am I trying to say?

It's approachable because you're just normal guys.

Yeah.

Like, there's no fuss, there's no-

You have an opinion

like-

Mm.

B- both, both of you don't try to be anything other than who you are.

It's too hard.

And I think, uh- Why would you?

… you know, you're there with your tats and your hats and your

controversial T-shirts and shit.

You're there just talking about whatever the fuck you

want You're there with the muscle

with no filter.

I,

I thought he would

sore knuckles.

And it's just, and it's just, I, I think it's just awesome.

And, and, and I think the fact that you guys have like skyrocketed over

the past few years, 'cause I've known you for a long time- Mm … and-

You've just popped out of like, you've grown real fast, though, haven't you?

Oh, yeah.

So, yeah.

I think, I think it's sort of… I tried so hard to grow my Instagram when

I was doing what you guys are doing.

Yeah.

Um, doing like architectural builds and wh- Yeah … I tried so fucking hard.

Yeah.

I spent money, I curated images, and it fucking went nowhere.

And when I said, "Fuck this, I'm so over this"

- Mm

and then I think the one, I actually posted a massive

rant about timber quality.

Yes.

Yeah.

That was,

that was the mold

that took off.

That is how I first

come across you.

The mold.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's how I come… It was during COVID, wasn't it?

And then I was like, "Oh" It

was, it was a bit after it,

was a bit of My original thought was like, "He's got the same last name as Andre."

That was literally it.

I didn't even put two and two together that you were brothers Yeah, right.

Well,

you felt they looked the same.

I know, but I didn't, I didn't- Do you reckon?

But I wasn't, but I wasn't watching it- Oh, yeah … checking Joel

out to see what he looked like.

I was more watching the content.

Andre

has- It's okay

if you were Andre, Andre, Andre has more, Andre has more gray in his beard.

He does.

A lot more gray in his beard.

Yeah.

He should, he's fucking 13 years older than me.

Is he really?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I didn't- I'm the youngest by 13 years.

Andre's number four.

Brendan, who's the oldest, is also at Binc.

He's, he's the first.

Yeah, okay.

And then there's another two in between them, so there's five boys.

Is

that the singer?

The singer's number two.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

I wanna meet the singer.

He sounds hilarious.

So… Oh,

man, you, you do wanna meet him.

I do wanna meet him.

Yeah.

See, I think the one good thing about the content you produce, yeah, it's relatable,

you, but you're, you're opinionated.

But it's also, I think it, it gi- when I say, I said confidence

earlier, it gives you confidence to create something yourself.

It's not like up on your high horse, "I'm this." Like, you're a-

Yeah … you're

approachable.

Yeah.

These are normal dudes.

Yeah.

There's no reason why we couldn't do the same.

We fuck

up every day.

There's also- Mm … an element of almost non-bias, but bias as well, but you

also take the piss out of yourselves.

Like, you know, you guys are all in DeWalt now, 'cause that's Sami Ak-, you

got Sami Akens on- Yeah … in your area.

Are you guys sponsored

by DeWalt?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Can you tell?

Yeah.

Not today.

I mean,

not today.

I'm, I'm layered.

Oh.

I'm layered.

You got the DeWalt undies on.

But it's not, it's not contrived.

It doesn't feel forced.

It's just, like, you using the tools.

Like, you could get someone who is sponsored by something, and it's

all about, "And now we're using the DeWalt. Uh, uh, uh." But it's a very

natural way of, like, selling it, which I think works really well.

Yeah.

And great for, great for DeWalt.

Well,

they- Oh, man … coming across as well was not pushed whatsoever.

It was like, "Hey, we know you guys are stubborn." Like, and I've been

ingrained in Makita for 20 years.

Yeah, 'cause you, you have always had Makita.

Yeah.

Staunch Makita.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Always.

And, and they just said, like, "Hey, we know you're a stubborn bastard.

We're not gonna try and push it, because we know there'll be pushback."

Yeah.

" Here's a couple tools" You've seen Joel using the stuff.

He vouched for it.

Like, what, just let us know what you think.

They're yours, no obligations.

And- Yeah, I just want to go on the record saying I am not sponsored

at all by DeWalt, but Joel- Mm

was very gr- uh, gracious in giving me a matter drill.

You probably still haven't even opened yours.

It's the only tool I have.

Yeah.

Have you used it?

No.

My dream hammer.

I, I was like- I was

like,

" How does this thing work?" Yeah.

I was building this alfresco at my joint, uh, red ironbark.

It's, like, super thick, super heavy, dense timber, and I'm like,

my fucking Makita drill, I burnt it out, and I'm like, "I've got that

fucking drill that Joel gave me."

I went and got it.

Holy shit.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It eats, mate.

Wow.

Like, just butter, straight through.

I'm like- Yeah … "Okay, well, now I know." He's

getting my drill bit

too.

I, I tried to be in denial when I started using it.

'Cause I had my full Makita max track set up.

You open it up, and there's just

two yellow- Oh,

you sat on, you sat on yours for a bit.

I remember you telling me … I sat on it for a while.

I used this saw for ages because everyone raved about the 54-volt saw, and I thought

if I use that, I know I'm converted, and I'm not ready to be proven wrong yet.

Yeah.

And I would open up my Makita stuff and pick out the two DeWalt drills

every day first, and I was like

Well, I tell you what, if there's anyone from DeWalt listening,

Sanctum Homes is happy to convert to DeWalt if you come to the party.

I w- oh, mate, that is

That would

be

the bomb.

Now that you said that,

that's gonna happen.

I will paint, I will paint, I will paint Sanctum Homes yellow and

black Change the logo.

And get rid of everything.

That's, you know what?

I'll change the logo.

Yeah.

I'll change the logo.

With, with them, they, they want to be the best.

Yeah.

They wanna do what they can, and they don't wanna try and…

They come to us for who we are.

They don't, "Come on board.

All right, this is what we want you to be.

We love what you're doing.

We approached you because we like the way you're doing it." And they're

often like, "We have some pretty outrageous ideas," as you can imagine.

No.

No.

We sort of like

dwell on like- There's some good shit, there's some good shit coming up.

Actually, can, can we- Yeah … can, can we talk a little about some of the,

like what is, what's the craziest ideas?

Without giving too much away, like-

Oh One that, one that didn't quite get approved was when they came

on board, I was like, "All right, I've got this fucking idea," right?

I'm like, "What we'll do is," I'm like, "I need a DeWalt van." Oh, yes.

This is good.

Right?

I'm like, "What I'm gonna do is," I'm like, "I'm gonna, like, Hopper's gonna be

walking down the street, and I'm gonna run out and grab him, throw him in the van."

Like full abduction, like.

Yeah.

And I'm like, "And then I'll do it to Sammy as well, and then they'll

just walk out all fully kitted up."

Yeah, we get dragged in there.

That's a brilliant idea.

And they're like- And then we walk out and-

… "That's a great idea." They're like, "But don't think we can do it." Yeah.

Oh.

Why?

Oh, look, they're a fucking worldwide organization.

Um, I think- If it was in America, they probably They're actually pretty, they're

pretty- That'd be like, like, boring.

Yeah.

They're pretty good with us.

Like, they allow us to get away… Oh, should've put my fucking phone on silent.

Oh,

Mr. Meteor over there.

Yeah.

The Jackie Chan gang.

Oh, that's just it there.

Yeah.

Just on to the… 3AW, sorry, guys.

Um, yeah, so they, they do let us get away with quite a lot.

But even when I started with them, I wasn't, I wasn't, um,

interested really in DeWalt, 'cause I was pretty staunch Milwaukee.

Oh,

right.

And yeah.

But, uh, a mate of mine worked, worked at Stanley Black & Decker, owns DeWalt,

and he's like, "Look, just, just come in." I said, "All right." I tried it

out and I was like, "Fuck, actually, that's really, really impressive."

And they're like, "Here you go.

Just take it.

No obligation." I was like, "All right."

And I didn't want to like it, you know- Mm … 'cause I was so, I was,

I was always sending DeWalt jokes to, like, guy mates that had DeWalt.

'Cause it re-

that's just what we do, it's hilarious.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, um, I just, I just ended up going, "Fuck, these are really good." And then

it just became really obvious that they were serious about taking that spot

back, like being the dominant player.

'Cause, 'cause if

I think about it, and maybe it's just 'cause you guys just- fucking

swamp my feed all the time.

Um, that I'm just seeing Dewalt everywhere.

I don't see anyone rocking Makita.

So Makita are- Makita are really

bad with their marketing

Maki- who, who, who are the Makita influencers?

They don't, um-

I'm an equally Makita if you

want.

Oh, you…

Mate, you're gonna, you're really triggering Hoppo now.

But I'm gonna say right now is they actually don't.

No, they, they, they're trying to now because they… And you know, my, my

slogan is, "You snooze, you fucking snooze you lose." And that's what's happened.

Um- Oh, Makita

jumped on.

We're gonna be, we're

gonna be

dicked out of Makita.

Yeah, I was gonna say.

Because there's a line down the middle of the table here.

We can take the Makita.

They've tried to push it, but they don't see the value in creators.

They, and apparently Cole comes back from Japan, but they don't see the value in it.

We've got this name from 40 years ago with some like, well, and Dewalt are

like, "Fucking all right, here we go."

Sweet, let's send it.

We value.

Yeah.

And that's the thing with Dewalt is like, we don't get paid.

A lot of people think we get paid.

We don't get paid.

Yeah, but you know what?

You get

fun.

You've probably got 30 or $40,000 worth of tools.

Yeah, but, but also we already had 30 or $40,000 worth of tools that works fine.

That's true.

So people, people say to me- That's a really good point.

You already have it … they, they go, "Oh, well they gave you all this tools."

I was like, "Yeah, it's, it's almost a- at an inconvenience now." Like, we've

got- Oh, you poor things … so much.

I know, right?

I didn't fucking

say that.

No, we, we… Like Joe's like, "Where's the BMW?"

I'm, I'm

not inconvenienced by this at all.

What's the point of it then?

What, what do you get out of it?

Experience

It's, you know what?

It's, it's the tools, but then it's all the other stuff that

goes with it Opportunities,

networking There's

like… They're actually, like, they're this really big company, but-

Doesn't

feel like it

the people that you talk to are just normal dudes.

Yeah.

Normal chicks.

Normal people that are, like, so appreciative of you.

Like, when you… I walk into Dewalt- We- Oh, we just- … and it's like

you're a celebrity, 'cause they all obviously follow us 'cause we're Dewalt

influencers Yeah … and they're like, "Oh, Joel, I saw your thing," or,

"How'd you build this go kart thing?"

You feel so valued.

Yeah.

So valued.

But they're, but they're always, they're always- Brilliant … amped at work.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But do you think that's because they- What- … work in a commercial

environment, so they're feeling normal actually hanging out with normal

people, so it's actually the flip side?

No, I reckon, like, they do, like, this tra- No, they're so passionate about

what they do, yeah

yeah,

and they do these forums for their own staff.

So they have, like, these big activations where they'll have all their tools

all set up in, like, marquees, and then they'll actually educate all the

different teams on the different tools.

Yeah, okay.

So- So we… I did one, um, it was, like, in the eastern suburbs somewhere,

and then we did another one, me and Hoppo did one, where they just

wanted real feedback from tradesmen.

And

we're out in front of probably 60 people, and they sit there, and they just,

honestly, they, they value our opinion.

So you go there, and they genuinely want to… "All right,

you don't like this," they want to just say it exactly how it is.

Yeah.

We want to know what's happening and we just got full support.

We're like- Yeah … "I really need this tool for this job this week," and

they bang, the next day it's there.

Yeah.

No questions asked.

Like, it's, "Hey, hey, my, my dad needs something." "Yep, cool.

What do you need?" I

reckon, yeah, I reckon because of the deal with Dewalt and, or because of the support

that we get, that's sort of enabled me to lean into the content a bit more.

Otherwise- Yeah … I'd be like, "I'm fucking wasting my time." Yeah, yeah.

You know what I mean?

' Cause I asked Hoppo this earlier on, and he said that, um, you know,

financially, he's getting 50% of kickbacks from all the stuff that

he's doing for the brands and stuff.

W- what was it for you guys?

Do, do you get…

I'm nowhere near that.

Yeah.

Nah.

I mean, I've got… My business, you know, is, is trucking along

really nicely now- nowadays.

Yeah

… and it's doing its own thing, and it's- Yeah … it's really doing well.

This is honestly a creative outlet for me.

Yeah.

Does it bring in work at all?

Do you get clients calling you because

they've seen you?

Nah, but I think, like, supervisors and stuff that I work for,

they're all tradesmen too.

So whatever's in their algorithm, man, I'm, I'm in their algorithm.

So I'm probably just more front and center for them, so maybe they just…

There's probably guys that I couldn't create a relationship with early

days that it's helped to create the relationship because they're like,

"Oh, yeah, I know fucking Joel."

'Cause they've got a parasocial

relationship with you.

Do you think that helps with, like, your, your quick tradie

eats and stuff like that?

Because you can… It's something that everyone can relate to, you know?

Yeah.

Like, they might see you and go like, "Oh, I don't know how to build these windows.

I don't know much about that.

But hey, I really, I know a good burger joint down the road." Yeah, yeah, yeah.

"I know I can spark that with Joel." That's a, that's a point of

communication now that we've got.

Yeah.

Yeah, like, I think, like, doing the quick tradie eats, even all that sort of

little, little stuff, I, I'm just trying to kind of dispel the misconceptions

around tradesmen Like, I think there's a shitload of misconceptions

around being a tradesperson.

I… Well, th- this is good.

What are they?

Well, first of all, that we eat fucking meat pies and big M's.

Like, that's 30 years ago, right?

If, if I come on as a influencer for DeWalt, do I need a nose ring?

Uh, yeah, you do.

Where's the guy at?

We've got a piercing studio, actually.

Yeah.

Joel's trying.

Yeah.

16 gauge barrel.

So, so, so- Yeah, yeah … so diet aside, like I think, 'cause I, I

think it's a really good conversation.

I'd, I'd put a… I'd, I'd do a nose ring for it.

Uh, probably a little… I wouldn't go ring, but I'd go scale a stud, I reckon.

Yeah,

yeah.

That'd be cute.

It'd suit ya.

That'd be cute.

It'd be

great to walk, walking to Pilates with

your little stud.

Yeah.

I'm happy to talk about that.

Let's do it.

I had a great session of Pilates last night.

So the context is… Sorry, Matt.

Jo- I talked to Joel last night, and he goes, "Matt, I've got a, got a quick,

uh, just a couple of quick, quick minutes of your time. I've been asked

to go on some fucking radio station. Want to know if it's cl- clashing with

your, uh, podcast recording tomorrow."

I'm like, "Fuck off, wanker." I go, "I've only got a couple of minutes,

and I'm about to go into Pilates." And Joel's like, "Man, we are living the

most d- polar opposite lives right now.

I'm in my shed drinking beer, working on my daughter's go-kart,

cooking up Italian sausages." Yeah.

"And you're wearing Lycra about to go into Pilates."

I'm like…

After getting a pedicure.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

What do you think

I'll say later?

There's builders and

then there's

builders.

Exactly.

So, so I want to go back to this misconception tradies.

I think it's a really good actual topic that's gonna… we can discuss.

We've got to have something.

Um, the, the, the diet part I thinks crap.

Like, I don't see many meat pies.

Uh, maybe on a Friday when they go pick up a box of KFC or something.

Yeah.

But, like, I, I think the… my biggest misconception on

tradies is that they're dumb.

That's what- Yeah.

Hey, wait, just on that, have you ever seen Simon's diet?

Old mate up in Mr. Survivor.

Simon, me.

Man, he's- Yeah

like

a flat out KFC, isn't he?

He,

he does- And he's got a wig … every Tuesday he's got his thing, yeah.

But he's- No, but he's

fucking ripped as.

Yeah.

He could… He'd only

ever… If he ate that, it's on camera, I reckon, every other time he wouldn't

like- He, he fits it out after it.

Yeah.

I speak with Simmo pretty much every day.

Yeah.

He's a good dude, too.

He's like… But he reckons he doesn't go to the gym.

I want to go to the gym that he's not going to.

Oh.

It is ridiculous.

Surely.

Really?

Ridiculous.

He's just one of those really infuriating people that just has a great- Is he

jamming tren, like flat

M?

Yeah.

What's

going on there?

There's gotta be something.

There's gotta be something.

There's gotta be.

Something's going on.

That,

that's not genetics.

No, but he doesn't- It can't be … he doesn't talk about

his food other, other than that.

No.

He's, um, he has a- Other than chasing heat … when he went on Survivor,

'cause I knew there was a, a… I don't know if I'm allowed to say that.

Anyway, it's on there now.

Um- He's

on Survivor?

Yeah, he's done his third one, but yeah.

Yeah.

But when, when he… He's in our group chat, and he'll be like, "Hey, I'm going

offline for the next three months." Um, got invited back to the show.

He set up his whole Instagram with, like, um, scheduled posts.

So every Tuesday for 100 days, he would have his, um, KFC for lunch.

His zinger, his zinger Tuesdays or whatever would pop up.

Oh.

So we had it dialled in so every Tuesday that would pop up.

And he's- So what did he do?

He eat, eat KFC like every day

for

two weeks beforehand?

I don't know.

He s- Did somebody go on Survivor?

And, and then he got all post fades go on re- yeah.

So he did it just so people didn't know he was on Survivor.

Exactly right.

Yeah.

So it looked normal to

his- But I didn't think he was going on Survivor, because he posted on social

media.

No, but that was… Yeah, but that was- It's a pretty… That's

after the

fact, isn't it?

Yeah, there's a pretty general term that you can't let someone know that

you're doing something for a while.

Okay.

He

was, like, back

on ND- He's a good f- We, we've been trying to get him on podcast for a bit.

Um, we'll make it happen, but we want to get him in person.

Yeah.

Well,

we… He's Brisbane based, yeah?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, we spoke- Yeah … to him from a marketing background.

We,

we tried to get him on.

We're

going to Brisbane soon.

Well, in September.

Yeah.

We tried to get him on when you guys were all influencing

like a couple of months ago.

Because we got Sammy on.

Oh, yeah.

And he goes, "The Ox Tool thing." Yeah.

He goes, he goes, "I'm, I'm busy influencing."

That was so good.

That Ox stat was

so good.

He's a,

he's a good dude.

He's a good dude.

He's a rip-roarin' guy, man.

Yeah, really good dude.

He's very calculated, so, um-

I want to get back to what Matt was talking about tradies being dumb.

Oh, yeah.

I, um, I… That's a, that's a real big one- Mm … I reckon.

'Cause I was, I'm…

My background's Sri Lankan, right?

So, you know, you have to go to university.

Yeah.

That's like the thing, is like… And my, my bro- Andre- Yeah … once called me.

He goes, "I'm not one of your dumb tradie mates." Ooh.

Whoa.

And we had a fucking huge blowout over it.

So your,

so your brother- Yeah … who we all know really well.

Yeah.

And do

you

know what?

I've got

all the time in the world for Andre.

He's a good friend of mine.

But I think even that kind of comment is just not- It's

just not relevant these days.

Like, like-

No, look, it was, it was many years ago, and we were running big together-

Yeah,

okay … at each other's throats.

Yeah.

It was heated.

Real, real, real heated thing, right?

And I fucking flipped my lid when he said it.

Yeah.

'Cause I've, I'm, like, hypersensitive to that- Yeah … sort of stereotype.

It's like, "Fuck, fuck you. I'm not stupid just 'cause I'm a tradesman." Yeah.

"I'd argue that I'm fucking smarter than you 'cause I'm,

I fucking picked the trend."

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

So just because I swear or just 'cause I'm less polished, it doesn't

mean, you know, that I'm less than.

Well, I agree with you.

You know?

I actually think there are heaps of people with degrees that are fucking idiots.

Yeah.

Mm.

Right?

Um-

Yeah.

I mean, let, let's just go on the record as saying- Sorry.

I'm gonna-

… long, long time ago from Andre, 'cause I don't, I don't wanna, I

don't wanna poo- No, no … I don't wanna poo-poo Andre 'cause he's-

No, no, no … a fucking legend.

And-

On Andre, Andre actually, I, I will say this one thing.

Andre actually, I moved in with Andre when I was in my teens

just to get through high school.

Like, he actually went to my parent-teacher interviews.

Really?

Yeah, man.

Yeah, yeah.

He, he did heaps for me as a kid.

If it wasn't for Andre, I'd have been dropped out at year nine.

Yeah, okay.

Yeah.

So he's, he's- So

he is the smarter one.

He's, yeah, he

is.

But there's this thing that, like, schools were like, "You gotta go to university and

you do careers day and you've gotta go…

If you don't go to uni, you're a failure if you're not a

doctor or a lawyer or a…"

You go to uni these days, you end up working in the timber

yard serving us anyway, Dan.

Yeah.

Let, let me ask you, like, just let me ask you, like, is- Can't get

you … is that stigma still there?

'Cause I know we've talked about it a lot.

Yeah, of course it is.

Like, it kind of feels like being a tradie is the cop-out.

Like- I think

it's unspoken now.

Is unspoken, okay.

You know?

I reckon it's still, people still think it, you know?

Yeah.

But I don't think that- Do

you think that's the government system to keep people in school?

Well, man, when you went to school, did, how many t- like, how

many tradies or someone came and spoke to you about doing a trade?

Not one.

None.

That's

right.

Mate, I, I went to a private school in Yarra Valley, and- Oh, sh- … and not,

n- not once did they talk about trades.

Yeah.

And all my mates who ended up becoming tradespeople, 'cause they're all like

me, couldn't fucking sit still in class.

Yeah.

And they all ended up doing sparkies, cabinet makers.

They all run successful businesses now.

But how many people said to you after, obviously, proceeding

school, Yarra Valley, right?

Yeah.

Said to you, "Geez, your parents wasted their money sending you there."

Well, so I'm, I'm a little bit different.

I went to, I went, I did go to uni.

Yeah.

So after I finished school, um, I, I value the education that I got

there, and I reckon if I had've ended up in the public school

system, I probably would've got lost.

Mm. And I probably wouldn't have turned out.

Yeah.

And there's definitely values you pick out of that- Mm … to made you a- are today.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, uh, I'm not saying I'm interesting example, but I think I'm a little

bit different, 'cause I can kind of… I can see both sides of it.

Yeah.

I

can see both sides of university.

I can see value in going to a really good public school.

I can see value in going to a really good private school.

But then there's also parts of the private school system that I don't like.

What if there was a private tech school?

'Cause we got rid of tech schools.

Yeah, I love that.

What if there was a fucking private tech school, like where you could go,

you could send your kids, sorry, and they could learn about running a small

business, like corporate structure- There's a massive opportunity there

tax, and do their trade stuff- Yeah … as well.

Yeah.

Like i- like- That's

a very good idea.

Yeah.

You, you… Yeah.

Think about it.

People are paying 30, $40,000 to send their kids to a private

school for a better education.

Is it better?

A year.

A year.

Per child.

That, that's now, and that's… So let's also touch on that for a second.

So that's 40 grand net.

Yeah.

That's after they've paid their taxes.

That's before- Yeah, yeah.

That's

post-tax.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So that's… So really you've got to earn 60 grand.

No, I reckon if you've got three kids- It's way more than that

… it's one person- Yeah, that's, that's before you put- … working

full time in that family-

food on the table … at 120 grand a year to just to send your kids to

private school, 'cause you've got to then add on all the other things on top.

So what if your kid's not that way inclined, like yourself?

What if you could go back in time and your parents could have sent you to a 40 grand,

30, 25 grand a year tech school, where you came out and you actually, you went and

learnt in an environment that suited you?

Do you know what?

I d- I don't know what the answer is that for me, because

I didn't do badly at school.

Yeah.

So academically- Yeah, I can't, can- … I was, I was okay.

But I'm, I'm thinking about other people who kind of limped through year 12.

The good ones- Like- … when they finish their, finish high school, they

go into the apprenticeship straight away.

They're the ones who've always wanted to be a tradie.

Yeah.

Like, I think that- Yeah.

I think- Well, that was me.

I- But I don't reckon I, I

nev- I wasn't ready when I finished school.

Yeah.

Me either.

Like, I, I went overseas for four years.

I didn't get into carpentry till I was 24.

Yeah, okay.

So I didn't c- I came in t- too late.

And that's probably

more common now too.

Well, I reckon it benefited me, 'cause I- Well, I think that, yeah … went, went

to univers- I finished school, went to university, and I traveled for four years.

And I, I got back, and at that point I'm like, "Louise…" 'Cause I'd

just met Louise while I was overseas, dragged her back to Melbourne, and

I'm like, "I wanna be a chippy.

This is what I wanna do." And I was so focused at that

point to becoming a chippy.

Mm. And I don't reckon I would've done that at 18.

There's a lot of pressure on 16-year-olds to know what they

wanna do for the rest of their life.

And

ding, ding, ding, ding.

How the fuck are they meant to know that?

Yeah.

But even someone going to university.

Yeah.

Like

people listening to this podcast that'll be pushing their kids

to go to university, and-

One, one really good… Sorry.

One, one really good thing about the American system is they

go and do a year of college.

Like- Oh, yeah, yeah.

To, just to figure shit out.

Mm. Like they don't go- Yeah … and start doing their university

degree until the second year.

Or finish school, go overseas for a year.

Well, I feel like that's so important.

Like, the guys that I've had in and employed that have traveled, and they

bit culture, and they, and understand- Yeah … and appreciate things-

Yeah

… wildly different.

Yeah.

Yeah.

An 18-year-old boy, are they really what you want to be dealing with?

26-year-olds.

No, but like what I'm saying is- I'm just saying … do you

really want to be dealing with an 18-year-old boy as an apprentice?

As

an apprentice Oh, look, one thing-

I've got one now.

It's a little bit more challenging I,

I don't think I'm built the, built like that anymore to be able to

deal with these young kids and-

Yeah, see, I'm getting to a different stage, I reckon, where

I'm actually wanting- Punga

like, a, a, a young kid that's actually really keen to learn, 'cause I've

got a little bit of capacity now.

Yeah, but 21.

But 20- 21 But I reckon half the problem is as the business owner and

the tradesman, you've got so much other shit that you're trying to do.

Yeah.

And people, like tradesmen are part of the problem, 'cause they think they're

gonna hire an apprentice as cheap labor.

Mm.

It's not.

It's expensive labor from a time and a cost perspective.

Yeah.

What you should be doing, and so many people message me on Instagram asking

my advice on who to hire, and I'm like always, "A good fucking chippy."

But, uh, so first year apprentice- Yeah,

get a good qualified first, yeah … will cost you

$34 an hour, roughly, cost.

I reckon it's more.

No,

it's more, man.

It's more.

Because you gotta pay for them at trade school, plus you gotta

pay for their trade school.

Yeah,

yeah, yeah.

Yeah, okay.

Yeah, yeah.

So-

We, we, we've worked it out.

It's 50 bucks an hour it costs you- Costs you … to take an apprentice.

Not to mention it'll slow down your productivity.

Oh.

And they will fuck things up more than- Yeah … you know, current will.

Yeah.

So you add those costs in.

They're not cheap.

I'm not adding, no, I'm

adding those costs that you can't quantify.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But, you know, my, my, my thing now is I'm like, because I have capacity,

I reckon it'd be cool, 'cause I could actually teach the skill.

But

do they appreciate it that age?

This is where I'm kind of wanting to get to, because I

think- No, I don't think I did.

I was 19 when I started.

No.

I didn't really appreciate it.

But it's like- But I didn't have a choice either

… 20, 21, 22 I feel is, like, the ultimate spot.

I reckon the penny dropped for me, I was, like, mid-20s before

I appreciated what I was doing.

30.

Yeah.

30 for me.

Yeah.

You guys?

Yeah, I, yeah, I w- l- l- I was having a chat with, um, my VA yesterday about,

like, who, what I was like when I was 26, 27, and I'm like, "There's no way

I could sit here and have, like, a, a, a serious conversation with anyone."

Oh,

bro.

I was off here and there, and

I'm like- I'd say, no, well, I'm different.

I started my first business at

22. Yeah, okay.

I started BINC at 22.

Yeah, right.

Okay.

Yeah.

So I was qualified for a few months, and then we were into it.

And- Yeah … our first year we did a million bucks, and then we were doing

three after, like, two and a half years.

Wow, okay.

Yeah.

But I guess different… Yeah.

Oh, man.

I wasn't ready.

The epitome of- I was a, I was a pain in the ass- … not a dumb

tradie … to work for, right?

I was like, you kn- you knew it all kind of thing.

I, I sort of, and I'll still maintain this, I reckon when I was that age,

I reckon I had the answers, right?

But I found them.

Like, I, I sort of went a bit backwards a b- uh, like I did it a, in a

backwards way, but I still made it work.

Was it… W- what do you mean by that, though?

Like you weren't confident in yourself?

I knew… I backed myself in.

Like-

You

couldn't

communicate it

… I just couldn't, I just didn't have the street cred f- Yeah … behind me.

Ah, okay.

But I'm like, "No, I can do this."

Yeah.

All

right?

Um- The

confidence.

Yeah.

And

even if you didn't, you'd fake it till you make it, formula- Oh, blind optimism

last 10%.

Yeah.

Yeah,

yeah, yeah.

But if

you- When did you find that confidence?

'Cause you said, like, in high school you weren't, like, a popular kid or… Yeah

No, I was overweight.

Yeah.

I was 102 kilos in high school.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's probably where I found it.

S- okay.

Is that… But, but how did you find it, being overweight?

Like, often it's the opposite.

Yeah.

Do you think, like, did you just go like, "Fuck it, this is what I am.

Well,

I- "I might as well live it,"

or what?

… I think I just had a moment.

I was like, "Well, I can either believe what they're all saying,

or say, 'Fuck you, I'm, I'm gonna believe what I reckon.'"

Yeah, okay.

And I just feel like- It's good.

It's good … "Oh, I reckon I'm all right, actually." Like,

I- Okay … I rate myself.

Yeah.

And, um- Fuckin' love

that

… I did.

I would fake, I would fake it, fake confidence and everything, and that would

provide… I got myself into fights and shit when I was younger all the time.

Yeah,

me too.

' Cause I got, I got teased a lot as well, and I just…

Fucking, it was like water off a duck's back sort of thing.

It would hurt me later on, like, you know, when I was on my own

and- Mm. I'd really stew on

shit.

I, I… It, it would hurt for me, 'cause I, I got, um, I got bullied when

I was a kid too 'cause I was- Really?

… I was an overweight kid.

Really?

Up until about 16.

Yeah.

Yeah, right.

And then it kind of just fell off, like you sort of grow and whatever.

So I, I reckon from grade three up until seven, year seven or

eight, you know, it was pretty… It was always a thing, right?

And, and it, and it, it has impacted me even to this day.

Um, 'cause like I've got a nine-year-old, you know,

nine-year-old kid's now starting to-

Their brain is different to us, but, yeah

and, and, and kids in the, in the playground are tr- uh, are starting

to try to work out life, and that… Well, sometimes that comes

out in bullying, and unfortunately Darcy's been on the end of bullying.

And this has r- been really, um, hard for me recently because it's bringing up

all these memories of when I was a kid.

Mm.

And I don't want that for him, 'cause I know how it impacted me.

Mm. Even to this day.

Like, I think I'm in pretty good shape now, but I'm still the fat

kid that I was when I was 14.

Yeah.

Like, I l- you know, without sort of talking about body dysmorphia, but

I, I'll look at myself in the mirror now, and I'll still think that.

Yeah.

When I know it's not the case.

Yeah.

So I know, I know how it impacts… It's impacted me throughout my entire life.

Yeah.

So my question to you is, um, how do you approach that with your kids?

Because I feel like we're in a different time now where we can talk to our

kids and- Um, we can help them kind of navigate bullying and, you know,

certain people in their life sort of not being great influences on them.

Like, how do you navigate that?

Oh.

Because I'm, I'm figuring this out now.

I basically do the opposite to the, to, like, what my old man was like with me.

I mean, my old man was in the '40s in a Catholic boarding school, right?

Okay.

Okay.

So they were, like, notoriously horrible-

Yeah

… uh, environments to grow up in, right?

Yeah.

So my dad, he had zero emotions.

Yeah.

It was, like, angry, um, or indifferent.

Yeah.

Okay.

Like,

that

was sort of it.

Yeah.

Um, but I've… I, I, I just think back to, like you said, I think

back to being that kid, and so my son's copying it a little bit now.

N- not 'cause he's overweight, he's just hanging out with

grade threes and he's in prep.

Yeah.

Okay.

' Cause he's, like, real…

He looks, he looks like a younger grade three then.

Yeah.

Like, but he's just so full on, like, he's so crash and bash.

He wants to talk to the, to the- Yeah … older kids.

Yeah.

Um, and they like him, but then when they tease him he doesn't quite get

it- Yeah … and he flips out a bit.

And I'm like, "Mate, you need to maybe not hang out with grade threes 'cause they're

talking about things that you don't know."

Yeah.

So I… The biggest thing I do, man, is I just listen to him,

and then I ask him questions- Yeah … and it gets him to talk more.

Yeah.

And then I've found now- Even for the kids, it's like the

whole thing with your wife.

They just wanna talk.

Yeah.

Most of the point, most of the time.

Like, they just wanna be

heard.

In, in, in a r- in the right way.

You, you- Yeah … and they wanna feel heard- Yeah … just like you wanna talk

and wanna feel h- h- h- heard as well.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Exactly.

So- Yeah … that's, that's what I've been doing, to be honest.

Yeah.

Yeah.

How

did we end up on that

conversation?

I don't know.

But I feel

like it's gonna be a lot of sideways- I don't know.

It's just, it's just interesting 'cause I'm going through it now with my kids.

No, no.

And, and like I, I… it, it's just a real sore point for me 'cause

I know what a… how hard it was.

Mm.

And now I'm at a point in life where now I don't care.

Yeah.

Like, you know, talking to you last night, I'm in fucking Lycra and doing Pilates.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I'm like, "I actually don't give a fuck because-" Yeah,

yeah … "I enjoy this." Yeah.

Yeah.

And I'm not gonna criticize you for fucking drinking beers

and cooking Italian sausages.

Yeah, yeah,

yeah.

That's what you get at 30.

You hit 30 and you start realizing, like, "I actually don't give a fuck

what other people think." Yeah, exactly.

This makes me happy.

Like, oh, you rag on me, great.

For me, that's engagement.

Great.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

You know?

And, and I tell you what, I felt so much better getting in the car at 8:00 last

night than I did when I walked into that class at 7:00, 'cause I stretched and I

did whatever, and I'm like, "Okay, cool.

I needed that."

Yeah.

Also I want to quickly touch on how you said you look in the

mirror now and you still feel like the overweight younger kid.

Yeah.

Do you use that… Do you look at that differently now

and use that for motivation?

Or does it get you down?

No.

Like, how do you-

Nah.

So I think, uh… And, and I really, uh, I, I, I hesitate, like,

talking about body image because I don't know if it's healthy, and

I don't necessarily wanna, um…

Like, I'm really conscious about the language I use around my kids

because I don't want it to be a thing.

Mm. Like, you know, our narrative is like food is energy, and energy is to move

our body, and all that kind of stuff.

Um, I do feel that when I'm feeling good and eating right, my head's really good.

Mm.

Mm.

And, you know, I've unknowingly been managing my ADHD by

exercising really regularly for the past 43 years of my life.

Yeah.

So-

Talk about mindful builder.

This is, like- Yeah.

… this is a mindful builder chat.

Exactly right.

This is not what people would've been thinking they'd be hearing on this,

this episode.

No, and I didn't know it was gonna go there either.

But, like, I, I don't, I don't f- like, for me, what I'm doing with my

life and my body right now is for me.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's not about any- anybody else.

So this, this probably links back to then going back to the kids with the

apprenticeship or thinking about it.

Do you think it's the parents are the barriers to the child wanting to do

the apprenticeship because they've perceived through their generations that-

Maybe

… that…

Yeah.

Ha-

have

any

of you guys ever

copped phone calls from a parent of an apprentice?

Only once a long time ago.

Yeah, I've had a, I've had a few.

Yeah.

I had one once, and that, it was one and done.

That was it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm like, "You're holding your kid back right now." Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

I, I know.

I'm, I've been the opposite.

I have been the, "Oh, we wanna have weekly meetings to understand how the

development…" I was like, "No, no, no.

You're in the big world now.

Like, you're, you're employed.

You're not at, you're not at school anymore." What?

Yeah.

Yeah, I've had a few like that early- There's, there's no

parent-teacher interviews.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nah.

This is, this is work.

Does that reflect on the kid that were hesitant about everything and-

Um- Like, I guess ultimately they're mindset at home

I've got to be very mindful how I comment about this right now.

Um- Yeah, you could see.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, you could see that it was a bit of cottonwoo- actually,

it was a lot of cottonwool wrapping.

I think that happens a lot, though, now.

Yeah.

Anyway,

so.

It's scary, though.

You think your kid's going from school in a semi-controlled environment

to, like, all right, out with these dumb tradies, with these brutes.

You know what I mean?

Like, it's what's-

Es- es- especially if they're younger.

Yeah.

10, 11, 12. Year 10,

11, 12, yeah.

And that, and that's the barrier that I've seen, is that because that, like, I don't

give a fuck what an 18-year-old is doing.

I don't… And what they think is cool is definitely not what I

think cool, and it goes back to the comment hiring someone younger.

Mm. It's very hard to actually connect with them, because you just don't care.

Oh, yeah.

Maybe, maybe once your kid's 18, then you can kind of know their friends,

you understand what's happening.

Yeah, the tricky part about that, though, is I, I actually think that

you do wanna have an environment that accepts all different kinds of

people at different ages and levels of maturity and stuff like that.

But, but it's- It's hard to connect, though … but do

you want, but do you want, but ultimately you want culture.

No, and I- And, and we talk about discrimination.

I tot- and I'll say that, yes, you shouldn't discriminate.

But ultimately, I'll hire who I think is best, and if I think a 30-year-old

is better for the role than an 18-year-old, that's discrimination.

Well, this is tricky, isn't it?

Because I think you need to hire for the c- culture of the business.

Now, I, I know you don't have a team, but I know you have a team.

Mm. And you talk a lot about the culture in your team, and I guess

from what I see on social media-

Yeah

… you, you look like you've got a really tight team.

Like, how do you go about fostering that?

I'm just really honest with them, man.

I don't talk shit to them.

I, I've, I've got a shit mem- uh, short-term memory for all that sort

of stuff, so I can't… I hate fucking lying and s- telling them one version,

and then… Like, I don't wanna be like, "Oh, I better not drive the

Tundra so my staff s- don't see it."

You know?

Like, I can't be fucked.

Yeah.

It's too hard.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I'm just honest with them.

Yeah.

But I tell them, I'm like, "You want me to make money."

Mm. Yeah,

yeah.

Like, "You want me to be making money," 'cause that's how, you know- That's

how you get paid … pay goes through every Mon- Yeah … Monday morning.

Yeah.

Um, but then on the flip side, when it's really shit, I've told them like-

I'm fucking at the end of my rope.

Like, I'm losing it.

I need fucking help.

We're in this fucking drama.

This has happened, this has happened, this has happened.

And you know what, man?

Some of them jump.

They're like- Fight or flight, yeah … I'm, I'm n-n… This,

I haven't signed up for this.

And that's cool- Yeah … 'cause I didn't really have that

relationship with all of them either.

But it made those guys stick around.

Without, without getting too fucking, um, uh, Simon cynic here, but, uh, you know,

vulnerability is a massive way of getting your team to, to get that cohesion.

Mm.

' Cause I, I remem- There's been some times where I've struggled, 'cause I

go up and down with my anxiety, and there's been times where I've been

just really honest with the team.

I go, "Team, I'm struggling. Like, I'm really just holding shit together right

now." I remember it'd be two years ago when we were buying and selling a house.

I'm like, "I'm fucked. I've got a, I've got, like, a fiber of the thread

right now- Mm … that I'm holding onto. I need your help." Yeah.

And every single one of the people at that table are just like, "All right.

Well, what can we do?" Yeah.

Yeah.

It's sick, though.

We used to do that.

And- Yeah … yeah On, like, a fortnightly, like every fortnight

we'd have a toolbox meeting when I had my crew, and I feel like

being open about that would reflect on… You know, you get on site and

something little might set you off.

Yeah.

But if they've got substance to- Context

why you're feeling like

that.

Yeah, yeah.

Do you have short tempers though?

Uh.

Not anymore.

You, you, you said you used

to, yeah.

I used, I used to.

Yeah.

I'm getting better at, like, removing myself from the environment and being

like, "Is this something I can fix right now?" Respond, don't react.

Yeah, ex- exactly, yeah.

Is it something I can fix?

Yeah.

Is it something out of my control?

Have a fucking breath.

Like- Yeah … or you can feel… I'm, I'm so much more self-aware-

Yeah … in the last sort of three or four years than I was before.

Do you know what I do now?

And I think you and I are probably a very similar, um,

personality in how our brain works.

If I'm really flustered in the moment, I'd actually physically say to myself,

"Your response to this is gonna be so much different in five minutes."

Yeah.

" So go and take yourself away." And I'll say it out loud, and I'll walk away, and

I'll walk 100 meters that way, 100 meters this way and just take some deep breaths.

And now I'm like- Okay, cool.

All right.

That's why I won't send an email till the next day when I don't like the email.

Yeah.

I would just go and I'll write it, and then I read it sometimes like, "Ugh."

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, you go over the, the whole,

yeah.

And I'm blunt, I'm already blunt and direct as it is- Mm … let alone- Really?

Yeah.

I was… Well, that was gonna be my question.

Like, how many of, is in your team, and how do you go with your team?

'Cause like, I obviously- We have a very quirky, different

Sidest team, and I like that.

We're not your typical team, right?

They're very, everyone's a very different background.

I'm not big on the whole let's hang out after work thing.

I think that everyone should have a life, and I think it's like you work your,

your n- we'll just say nine to five.

Like, you do, like, you've got a life.

I don't want you at work all the time.

I want you to be with your friends and family- Mm … and whatever.

For, for me, um, I, we're very just open.

I don't, I don't really care about anything, to be honest with you.

Like, you'll la- like, I, I will fire you quickly now.

I've learned quickly if I don't like you, I'll just get rid of you from the start.

I, I have a team that is awesome right now, and they just get along.

Yeah.

And that, that's all I ask.

The rest will work itself out.

I d- I don't overcomplicate it, and I think that's the problem is people go sign

up for these team culture days and team bonding days, and I played a lot of footy.

Mm. So culture for me is like, we've come from a club where we- Back in

the day, it was old school footy club, and it's completely changed.

Yeah.

So c- I've got… I was part of that cultural shift.

So creating culture, you can't create it, it just happens.

Like you- Yeah, yeah … you've

gotta- I agree with that.

You can't, you can't force culture down people's throats.

No.

We don't, we don't, we don't do anything from a cultural perspective aside from a

Christmas party, and we try to do- Yeah

like a camp trip in the middle of the year.

Yeah.

Or like the last few years, we would have a charity gala that we'd go to.

Yeah, yeah.

And we'd get the guys to all bring their, their partners.

Yeah.

I don't even do that.

And they loved that.

But that was only 'cause there was this charity thing, otherwise we don't do it.

Yeah.

If you're forcing something, I think with culture, I think

you're the problem yourself.

Like if I'm forcing culture, like I'm a barrier myself.

Yeah.

That's a good way to put it.

Yeah, yeah, I reckon you're right.

Like we just, we just have a beer and all- Yeah … we'll have a barbie

sometimes or- I reckon my cheat code thing that I've just worked out is I do

our team meeting now on a Friday arvo.

That's exactly what we do.

We do our, we do our, we do our team meeting on a- Interesting.

So

good, man Do you do monthly?

We just do a monthly team meeting.

No, 'cause I can't get my head around spending about 1,500 bucks a month

on like labor and- … like costs.

Yeah.

Like, so I do it every six weeks.

Yeah.

I see.

So w- yeah, okay, we just do two hours on, yeah, 2:30, two o'clock every second

Fr- every Friday and once a month.

Yeah.

And we'll just go things, think what we're working on, what's

coming up, what projects.

Questions, I do a wellness survey, so I have a wellness survey now

that it's the first time I've done it, that goes out to my team.

Really?

What's

in, what's in a wellness survey?

Um, so I, I'll, yeah, I'll grab it up and I'll literally read you the

questions to anyone that wants to

copy it.

So there's a few things- I'd put my guys to throw it out if I gave it to them.

So, so, so- They'd probably- It's not, it's actually, it's not- Two

of them, at least two of them would quit if I gave them a wellness

survey … I, I call, I call it a

wel- I call it a wellness survey.

It's not wellness.

It's because I'm not on site all the time and I don't know what's

happening, and I don't have the chance to see them every day.

So for me, I wanna know how they are, just how things are going

on site, and how they're feeling.

Um, I'm just gonna grab it up for a second.

While you're bringing it up, though, can I… I'm gonna challenge you, 'cause I

think you're probably onto something here.

Like I, there's been times where, like I'm not on site much, and I'll

just message one of the team and go, "Hey, haven't seen you for a while.

How's, what's, what's going on?

How's your family?" You know, just a little check-in like that.

Mm. For like-

I go so far

… couple of minutes.

I'm, I'm just wondering- I d- … I'm not saying that's not a good idea,

but like it being so prescribed

… no, I still see them every, I still see them once a week, so I

haven't… We do fortnightly- Yeah

job site meetings, so I'll always see them and I'll always say hi.

Um- Yeah.

I'm just trying to feel, you know, figure out, like… A- and you know

you're gonna know your team, you're gonna know your team, I'm gonna know my team.

So- You're gonna know your site … so the

questions of, they're, they're a little bit different-

You're like, "Andrew, hop over here."

"How, how am I feeling today?"

Yeah.

So, so, so to give you context- Everyone else lets me know-

Yeah … because I'm

so vocal about

everything.

Yeah.

So to give you context, it allows us to create goals for our team.

Okay.

Um, and not on ev- every one of them.

So we might pick one that we're not, we're not doing well on.

So I've got the questions of how would you rate the tone of

communication style on site?

Like, and these are all anonymous.

I can, if I wanted to, go find out who said it if I see something's red flagged.

Um- Whoa, hang on a minute.

It's an- it's anonymous.

Well, it's non- anonymous.

It's non- anonymous.

Because if there's a sexual harassment, something that no one wanted to speak

up, I need to be able to see who it is.

But the, like, I don't… I, I have to actually… It, it's actually

an effort to go find out who it is.

Yeah.

So- Let's hope there's no sexual

harassment … do you feel respected and free

from any form of harassment or bullying on this site?

When-

I think my guys all sexually harass each other, to be totally honest.

When, so when you ha- when you have a con- when you raise a-

Thank Joel for coming

on the podcast.

I, I have, I have to stop.

I have to keep going.

Stop it.

And we'll, uh, we're done for today.

Is that, is that your car out the front?

I've got, so when you raise a con- a concern or suggestion, how much

do you feel heard and supported?

Um, how do you feel the site is a place where everyone is

treated with the same respect?

How would you rate the cleanliness and upkeep of the toilets

and on, on site each month?

How would you rate the quality of work we've produced in the last month?

Um, how would you rate the morale and atmosphere?

How, when things go wrong, does the team focus on finding a solution?

Um, is everyone following safety?

And how clear are our daily briefings?

I like the idea of that, Matt, but I just, my feedback, my constructive

feedback is- It… Oh, fuck

I've forgotten I, you know what?

I'm gonna- I'm gonna, I'm gonna say something.

I don't like it.

Yeah.

Why?

It's too formal.

I feel, yeah.

I don't, nothing feels personable.

I, I don't feel, I feel like a, a text, like a check-in-

I feel- No, no, it's not the

only

way I check in on

them, though.

No, no, I know, I know.

I, I just feel- I just couldn't do that … it's more like what kind of

feedback are you gonna get from that?

Okay, I'll give you an example.

So-

And I guess this is where you know your team, I know my team.

I know that probably wouldn't fly with mine, but it might fly with his.

No.

No.

So, so, so the reason, so the reason I started it is because I wanted them

to understand themselves and give them a tool, a tool to rate themselves.

So each, they get the results and all this.

This isn't, we just go through it.

And so for example, I-

But a self-rating tool's different to that

this is, so the, so I combine everyone's score, and then we have, I give

them an average of what the team is.

So it's not individual.

So it's the, so we get a collective across the whole board on how we're going.

So last month-

Do you treat it like a scientific thing and, and get the outliers?

Do you remember the outliers?

Yeah, I actually do.

Yeah,

okay.

I've got like, so it's, I… So what we can do is- Surprise,

surprise.

So,

so- Yeah.

You've got, you've got three people working for the team, and there's

one right in the middle and the other one doing the extremes.

So I actually, so, so we have, so we can decide.

So last, so last month I, me and Mark will also then rate.

So we have, my construction manager and I will come up with a score, and we put

it against your score and how we think.

Now, some of these things I can't, I don't know what the morale's like crazy on site.

But things like last month, I thought the site's been kept like shit for a

whole month, so I was able to go, "Hey, Mark and I have both given you a three,

but you guys rated, you thought the site was clean at eight, and I think you

guys are- have not pulled weight here.

And there was actually someone else in that score that gave them a three.

I don't know who it was.

So obviously someone in the team thinks the score for our sites- Yeah, but

then a- aren't they asking themselves the question, "Who the fuck is rating me?"

No.

Like,

you know, in, in my, in- No.

No, because they all agreed.

Uh, the ultimately I just said, i- what, otherwise what are you working towards?

Like how do, how do you, how do you give them a chance to stop and associate

and think like, "Geez, how was that site kept?" Or, "You know what, has

there been any bullying or has there been anything?" Now I, my team will

call me, I'll just call them randomly.

Like I do chat to them regularly.

I n- I… Not about work, ironically.

It's like, "What's going on the weekend?" Like, "You going away

soon?" Or anything like that.

But it's more so the fact that I wanted to have a system that we can track,

so in a year I can see that we've got a clear delineation of like the,

we're, we're improving on our site.

So I've said, "Let's not aim for a 10 out of 10 cleanliness site.

Let's just get hit, let's

hit four or five." Do, do you know what?

I like the idea of what you've done, but what my challenge to

you is I'd rethink the questions.

I've spent six months on these questions, so

we- Look, I don't know.

I kind of feel like my gut reaction to those questions, and I think your gut

reaction, I'm not sure about you, was that that's not the right questions.

I like the sentiment.

So w- w- in what, like-

And I don't know what the answer is … ultimately, so ultimately, like what,

what- So don't ask

me what I'd

do, but- … the goal is to make sure that n- like ultimately it's a HR exercise.

I need to be, if I'm not around all the time, how do I check in to make sure

that there's checkpoints along the way?

I just feels a bit corporate-y.

Yeah.

It, it has, you have to be now.

I'd… But no, but I don't know if that actually resonates with

a lot of tradespeople, man.

Like, you know, like I think Hobbo and I, like are pretty representative

of what a lot of tradespeople's fucking brains work like.

And- Yeah … a lot of us hate structure.

Like hate all that corporate shit, and that's kind of why, what I love

about being a tradesman is I don't have to deal with the corporations

and all that sort of stuff.

I, I, I really don't like that sort of stuff.

And-

Yeah