What if the pinnacle of success you've been climbing towards is actually a trap? When you finally make partner, win the promotion, or achieve the milestone you've been chasing for years, what happens when you discover it's not the answer? When the very achievement that was supposed to bring freedom instead leaves you feeling like a rat in a mill, just surviving from one deadline to the next?

This conversation explores what happens when we pause long enough to ask whether the life we're living is actually the life we want. Rachel Paris shares her journey from corporate law partnership to becoming a novelist, revealing how crisis can become catalyst, how the skills that made us successful in one domain become secret weapons in another, and why freeing up your future might mean letting go of the one you thought was already set. We get into the tension between security and creativity, physical presence and emotional presence, and what it truly means to redefine success on your own terms.

Rachel Paris is a former partner at Bell Gully, one of New Zealand's most prestigious law firms, where she specialised in banking and finance for over a decade. After walking away from partnership, she became a bestselling novelist with her debut crime thriller "See How They Fall." Her sister's cancer diagnosis became the catalyst for change, prompting her to question whether surviving each day was any way to live a life. Rachel's journey from Harvard Law graduate to creative writer offers a fascinating lens on how professional skills translate across domains and what becomes possible when we give ourselves permission to begin again.

You'll discover:

• Why the partnership track in professional services can become a trap rather than a destination, and how to recognise when you're caught in it
• How to shift from physical presence to emotional presence in both work and family life
• Why redefining success requires asking what truly sustains you rather than what society says you should achieve
• How professional training in law, accounting, or other demanding fields creates unexpected advantages in creative pursuits
• Why being your own agent of change means not waiting for crisis to force your hand
• How to navigate the guilt and fear of letting people down when walking away from senior positions
• Why creating space for others to step up can reframe career transitions from selfish to generous acts
• How the wrestle of expressing something in your own words makes us human in an age of AI

Other References

• The Answer Trap Kate Christiansen
• Humankind by Rutger Bregman
• OpenAI
• Bell Gully Law Firm
• See How They Fall by Rachel Paris

Timestamps:

(00:00) -  From Corporate Law to Creative Freedom

(23:12) - Redefining Success and Embracing Change

(27:07) - The Journey of Self-Discovery

(29:24) - Navigating Career Transitions

(32:11) - The Impact of Legal Training on Creativity

(34:33) - Creativity in the Age of AI

You can find Rachel at:

Website: https://rachelparisauthor.com

LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/rachel-paris-author

Check out my services and offerings https://www.digbyscott.com/

Subscribe to my newsletter https://www.digbyscott.com/subscribe

Follow me on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/digbyscott/

I think I have gone from being a rat in a mill, or whatever, on a wheel, in the sense of having no time to sort of be mindful or to reflect, just sort of surviving the day. That was just the word that I always used to think, if I can just get through this week, if I can just get through this month, just get through this year. I think that is just no way to live your life.

you

everything you've been told about making it is actually the trap. Well my guest today Rachel Paris had it all. Harvard Law degree, partnership at one of New Zealand's most prestigious law firms and the security that comes with that. She was living this dream that so many chase. Yeah.

She described it feeling like a rat in a mill, just surviving each day, rushing from one deadline to the next with no time to breathe, let alone think about whether this was the life she actually wanted. Until her sister's cancer diagnosis changed everything. Today, Rachel shares how she walked away from the partnership to become a bestselling novelist and what she discovered about redefining success, the courage to begin again.

and why the very skills that made her successful in law became her secret weapon as a creative. This is a conversation about freeing up your future where you thought your plan was already set. Hi, I'm Digby Scott and this is Dig Deeper, a podcast where I have conversations with depth that will change the way you lead. Let's get into it.

Rachel, welcome to the show.

Thank you for having me on.

We've never met in person. We've had some lovely chats and I'm so curious to learn a bit more about the person you are now. But I first want to go back to the person you were and rewind to a time in your life where the way you were working, I suspect the way you were living is quite different to how you are now. Can you tell us, you know what I'm talking about. So can you tell us a little bit about that period of life and

I'll hand you the talking stick.

During that time I had three children as well and my husband works in corporate, he's in the world of telco. So life was really busy. I'm sure many of your listeners can relate to your ships passing in the night in terms of your relationship with your partner. You're trying to manage all the things with the children and their commitments and afterschool activities and ballet appointments. And you know, it's busy and all the time because of the world that we live in now and never being able to sort of switch off.

There's always work at the back of your mind and client needs. So I loved it. It was really sort of intellectually stimulating, worked with really, really smart, driven people. But I definitely had no time to sort of catch my breath and think, what am I doing? Is this a path that I really consciously want to be on or am I just, you know, going through the motions? And so it was time for a change.

Typically, you know, when you become partner, the story for a lot of people aspiring to partner is I've made it like this is it. This is gravy from now on. And the story you're just telling now doesn't sound like it's a gravy story.

I know, right? I was along with many of the people that I came through law with, had that idea, it's if you make partner, you're set. But of course, the world of commercial law is incredibly competitive, like all business. It's not as if you get to be a partner and you're top of the pile, you're a junior partner, and then you have to keep proving yourself and the work gets more intense and the expectations rise. And as the economic cycles change, you know, there's different types of pressures. So I think it's not a

profession where you can rest on your laurels anymore. Perhaps you might have been able to do that a generation previously where could go off and play golf and let the juniors do the work. think now the market demands people to be present and that's incredibly competitive. So there wasn't a lot of opportunity to take time out. And any time I did have was of course focused on my kids. But in terms of wellness and health and all of those extra things in life, something had to give. So I definitely was

feeling very stretched across all of the things in my life.

Did I read right that you were part time as a partner?

Right, so when I came into the partnership at my firm, the expectation was you're 100 % of the time there. And that's not just five days a week. mean, often that was weekends as well. It was sort of eight o'clock in the morning till eight o'clock at night. That has changed, of course, since COVID and all the remote working started to take off, but it was incredibly brutal. So when I was pregnant with my first child and was approached about partnership, I knew that I just didn't want that existence. I wasn't going be able to be the mum that I wanted to be.

and working those hours, needed some flexibility. But the problem with transactional work is, know, can't say I'm working four days a week because inevitably on that fifth day is when a transaction is settling or there are important negotiations. So I approached it as an 80 % deal. So the idea was that I would have the equivalent of one day a week out of the office to spend with my family. And that took a lot of flexibility, I guess, on both sides and trust. And I mean, that doesn't sound like a very remarkable arrangement.

in the world that we live in now where there's a lot more flexibility. But it was a really big thing for my colleagues to get their heads around because I think they thought if you're only working 90 % of the time, you're getting still 100 % of the benefit of being part of this partnership. Not financially, but in terms of all of the other comforts that get wrapped around you, is that fair? But I think most part-time workers would say they actually put in more discretionary effort than...

there over 80%. It worked out pretty well, but I mean it was still 80 % of a very, very long working week because I couldn't contain the work to just nine to five, Monday to Thursday or whatever. especially as my family grew and my husband became more busy as well with his job, it just got pretty stretched.

full on. So it's sort of a bit of pioneering in a way too, right? Because being a part-time partner, I suspect you were in, you know, a very small elite group of people who working that way. Elite's the right word, but less small. You know, there was a minority really.

Exactly. I think it is just so incredibly intense and competitive in that part of the market. Because also your clients are big multinationals. There are people in all different time zones. It's obviously you try and cultivate personal relationships with people, but there's work to be done. There are these insane deadlines. You just have no autonomy, I think, is what gets a lot of people in the end. you can do that in your early 20s when you don't have other commitments. But as you get older and life becomes busier and more rounded,

definitely more of a sacrifice. so you have to, ideally, have to reflect on whether that's a sacrifice you're prepared to make. But of course, once you've got the big mortgage and you keep adjusting your lifestyle to manage the stress, obviously you're earning a bit more money and so you want to spend that on nice things. And so you find yourself in this cycle where it's very, very hard to walk away. And I think people talk about that being the trap of partnership and whether it's law or accounting, a lot of those professional firms.

You've painted a picture, Rachel, which I reckon plenty of listeners are going to really relate to whatever professional work they're in. And you walked away from it. You left it behind. We can get into what you walk towards. I'm curious about that decision point. When we talked before we recorded, I remember you said to me, you reframed any fear you had.

as excitement, which I think is really smart, right? Okay, what's the possibility here? I get that. Yet, was there a time when it was just pure fear? The swirling before the actual decision, or maybe even after the decision that was predominantly fear? Was there a time when it was just that?

Probably, think, you know, looking back now it's easy to paint everything with rose tinted glasses. But at the time, yes, because you're not only leaving something that you know where you're competent, where you have a certain income, you know, to walk into something that you have no idea if you can do, let alone succeed in, there is no certainty. It is scary because it's not just about you. When you've got dependents, it's also about the impact on all of those people.

And also, I guess, sense of letting down the people that had supported me through my legal career, who had enabled me to have this senior position, you know, my fellow partners, for example. You know, I did feel guilty or like I was reaching their trust in me. But I think you're also creating room for someone else to come through into the partnership. And so it is also a really positive thing. And I think a lot of...

commercial firms, especially the professional services firms, people don't move on to make space for new talent and that's a real problem. So I did get comfortable with it from that perspective.

So there was a couple of stories that really helped there around this idea of making yourself redundant or at least getting out of the way. I think that's incredibly powerful. I can relate to when I was the director of a business and I was running a business line for a professional services firm. And the CEO who essentially backed me from the start, I felt this huge sense of loyalty to him when I realised that I wanted to leave and go out on my own. I felt like, use the word guilt.

It a real guilt and it helped me in stasis for probably six months of swirling around wanting to leave, but not sure how to put it the table. then there was also like, how am going to support myself on all those sort of things? So the stories like, okay, this actually frees it up for someone else to come and take it forward from here. That can be really helpful.

It is a really important thing because I totally relate to your feeling. I think you feel not just a duty to the people that have supported you, that are more senior, but also to your junior staff, to your clients. You know, I really did think, my goodness, you know, I feel so bad about this selfish decision. On the other hand, as soon as you're out of a place, you realise how unimportant you are. Everyone's a person. I don't get this idea in our head that, my goodness, are we letting people down? But the reality is...

these places all move on, the machines. There's always someone else that's ready and I think it's really nice to create that space, none of us are as important as we might like to think we are. So that, looking back, I now go, gosh, why did it take me so long in some ways? But it just is a process you have to go through, I think, to be really ready for that next step.

I think that's really healthy. You know, there's this lovely term free up your future. And so you had a potentially predetermined future that this is the path you went on and I'm to free up my future and some stories around I'm going to create space for others to step in. Really helpful. Now, what we haven't talked about is what did you move to? Tell us a little bit about the move towards and that transition.

I have moved into writing novels, but that makes it sound a lot easier and clearer. If I rewind a bit, I like many people that end up at law school, loved English and writing and all of those things as a child and a teenager. But then I think sometime in high school, especially in my generation, if you were vaguely academic, you were sort of channeled into law, accounting, medicine, engineering. That was sort of the pathways. I know it's very different now.

And I come from a family where my dad was a GP, my mum was a dietitian. There was an expectation I would go on to get a qualification that would send me into a secure job, a proper job where I'd be able to be financially independent. And that was a big thing for my mum in particular. She had seen a lot of her friends' relationships split up and the women often were left in really difficult position because they'd given up their careers to raise their families. And she wanted to make sure that my sister and I in particular.

were always able to be financially independent, which I take my hat off to her. It's fantastic advice for everybody. But as a result of that, I went to law school and got into this very traditional career. And so any thought of creativity or taking more risks, I guess, went out the window. And I don't regret it all, my legal training for all sorts of reasons. But what it meant is that always at the back of my head, I think I had this idea that I wanted to do something more creative and specifically right.

But of course, as you become more senior in your role, as you take on more debt and more responsibility and become a parent, the prospect of leaving this very secure, out pathway to go off and do something absurdly risky, non-lucrative, and quite selfish, because writing really involves sitting in a room by yourself for hours on end. I mean, that feels incredibly incompatible with sort of the lives that most people.

in a corporate environment they're coming from. So I had a few little bursts of activity along the way. So when I was on maternity leave with my first child, who is now 18, I started writing a screenplay with my sister. And I thought, this is going to be easy. I'll just sit down, the baby will be cute and sitting in the corner and I'll just be writing a screenplay. And of course, reality hits. Babies don't just sit there quietly. It was like an intense experience becoming a mum for the first time and all of the challenges that go with that.

write the screenplay, was optioned. The development process went on for a few years, but it fizzled out. And so that to me felt like a huge failure at the time, if I'm perfectly honest. I didn't really like to talk about it because I had in my mind, you know, this pathway where it was gonna be made into this fabulous feature film and I'd be off to Hollywood. And of course that didn't happen. So that made me lose confidence in my ability to make a success of a creative endeavor. But what ended up happening and you know, this was...

probably one of the benefits of COVID is of course we went into that first COVID lockdown and life was extremely busy in our household as it was most households around New Zealand. Two parents trying to work, the kids swinging out of the pantry doors and trying to get them to homeschool my son, supposed to be doing school work, was like teaching himself magic tricks on YouTube and you know, was like, it's all falling apart. But in that moment of chaos, I started writing.

bedtime stories for my kids. And it was something I hadn't done. I hadn't done any creative writing for years and years and years. And I loved it and they loved it. It was really special. And so I thought at end of that, oh gosh, I really should do something about this writing. But then of course lockdown ended, back to normal life, busy, busy. A few months later, my younger sister Bridget was diagnosed with a really aggressive breast cancer, completely out of the blue. No family history, no risk factors. That was an absolute horrifying shock for our entire family. We were all really close.

To summarise that very briefly, she went through two years of intensive treatment and is now cancer free and has been for a couple of years, which is wonderful. But that just really sheeted home to me the fact that life is short. You don't know what's around the corner. No opportunity is going to drop into your lap. You have to go out and be your own agent of change. I feel sad in a way that it took such a terrible thing to happen.

for me to see that. And I hope if your listeners are listening and thinking, gosh, I'd like to make a change, they don't wait until something catastrophic like that. But the day she got her cancer-free diagnosis, we had a glass of champagne. And then I remember that night Googling writing classes near me because I was like, I really have to just scratch this itch. So I didn't think, I'm going to go off and write novels. I thought I just, need to do something practical, create some momentum to learn.

a new skill that will open up possibilities.

There you go. That's a really interesting frame. I'm not going to write novels. I'm going to learn a new skill that's going to open up possibility. That's a very different narrative that you might write novels, but it might open up a completely different pathway. How did that you think shape how you were approached that new chapter you were moving into?

It is so interesting for me to look back now and see, compare my mindset writing my second book to my first, because the great thing about going into that new era of starting a writing course and not having any expectations or pressure on myself. I mean, I did see it as a gap here. So I went back to university, did a one year course. And for me it was, I'm just going to take this time to detox a bit from my crazy corporate life. And I'm going to just. Yeah.

go learn something. And to be honest, it could have been floristry or a musical instrument. It could have been anything, but I just thought I need to create space in my life. And that's why, mean, of course you don't need to do a uni course, but I just knew that the structure of that course and the commitment I would need to make to turning up to class and delivering assignments would mean that I would commit. Cause I knew that if I tried to do it myself, I would inevitably.

Faff around, get distracted and enjoy this freedom I hadn't had for a long time and actually waste it. So I thought that the uni structure was going

There's an accountability built into that, right?

Exactly, it's accountability and it's also the other people you meet because of course you suddenly open up this new world. I mean I had what I thought was a really broad group of friends and colleagues and clients but of course going back to university to do writing I met people I would never ever have crossed paths with and that has also been an incredibly stimulating part of this process because

I feel that I, you know, at a time in life, it's hard to make new friends. You you might meet people at the school gate, but beyond that, it's very, very difficult to get out of your bubble. I've now met this enormous number of people who are sort of have the same mindset. You know, we're all different ages and stages and backgrounds, but we're all curious and it has been really liberating actually, really inspiring.

If you were to describe the key differences about how you describe your life now, and it doesn't all have to be roses, right? Cause that's never going to be the case. But if you were to say the essential shift for me has been this, what is this? What is that shift?

I think I have gone from being just a rat in a mill, or whatever, on a wheel, in the sense of having no time to sort of be mindful or to reflect, just sort of surviving the day. That was just the word that I always used to think, if I can just get through this week, if I can just get through this month, just get through this year. I mean, there's just no way to live your life. So for me now, I just feel so much more mindful. I feel much less stressed. I mean, I'm not stressed.

stress I have around meeting a deadline for my next book or my next writing assignment is so low stakes. It's like, who cares? If I miss it, it's not the end of the world. There's no real world consequence of that other than my editor maybe being a bit cross. But I can just enjoy the process of writing, which is so lucky. I can actually enjoy spending time with my kids instead of constantly feeling guilty that I'm not doing things properly. I just feel much more at

And everyone has said, gosh, you just seem so much more happier, so much more relaxed. And of course life is still busy, but I just don't feel as out of control as I was.

I want to pick up on a word that's coming to mind, which is presence. And you mentioned earlier on when you were with Bell Gulley, the requirement was for you to be present and get that sense that's physically present, you know, on I get a sense it's a different quality of presence. Now you're present to your writing, you're present to your family and it feels like it's more of an emotional presence than a physical presence.

Certainly when I left big firm law life, there was much less flexibility in terms of remote working and all of these things that have developed in the last few years. I think when you're in corporate life, you are wearing a bit of a mask in a way because you have to represent your employer, your brand. You obviously can't express your personal views on things and that you're an advocate when you're a lawyer. And so it is all about the client's needs.

And then on top of the actual work, there's a lot of client entertainment. And so you're hosting. And I mean, it's all great. And I was really lucky that I had terrific clients and people that I worked with, but it still takes so much energy out of you. And so by the time you get into your real life, your friends and family, you're often depleted. And you're not, you know, I thought I wasn't taking enough time to rebuild my store of energy for the really important things in life. And it was just all out of whack.

I'm not sure I even realised how much it was out of whack at the time. It's so much easier to see all of that looking back now because I think I was completely institutionalised. And of course, when you're working with people that are also working just as hard, if not harder than you, that is your normal. That is all you know. It has just been really refreshing to kind of get completely out of that environment and to now reset in a way that is sustainable for me. Because I think the other thing looking back is that lifestyle was not sustainable.

would have burnt out at some point and I'm really glad it didn't get to that. Whereas I feel now that, you I am still working hard and I'm pushing myself to do all sorts of things I've never done before. You know, there's a lot of events. mean, even being on your podcast, I mean, that is just something I would never have done in my previous life. And it's all growth and all of the new people I'm meeting, but it's all very energizing and therefore sustainable. It's something I hope to do, you know, for the rest of my days.

I feel really lucky to have found something that I'm so passionate about. It's really cool.

I'm going to suggest you've created it rather than found it. The way you tell your story, it was like there was this impetus that came from within and some shaping forces that you will have to follow this. And I just want to give you kudos for that. It's not just that it showed up right. You've made this happen. You've created it. You've brought it into your world. I'd like to zoom out a little. The way you talk about

You said the word sustainable and it's sustainable for you. And I think this is fundamental because if I look at not just New Zealand society, but generally Western societies, there is rats in the mill as a culture. What is your choice and your decisions? What is the lesson here for us as society? I know it's a big question. I'm really curious about your take on that.

what has been helpful in this whole process has been redefining what is success. And this is something a lot of my friends, we're all sort of middle-aged now, and I'm seeing a lot of friends actually changing their careers or their paths or making big life decisions about what next, because I think obviously we're working for longer and our lifespans are increasing. And so when I look at my grandparents who were elderly at 60, I mean, I think now,

People are starting new careers at 60. And so I think with all of that in mind, working out what does success look like for you? So for example, is it having the nice house, the nice cars, the nice holidays, or is it something more fundamental? And I think, of course, when you're young and you're leaving high school and your friends telling you these are the goals you've got to meet, that's one thing. But I think you get to a point where you do have some options. It might not feel like you have options because you're looking at everybody else around you and they're all sort of.

still moving forward on that same path of material accomplishments. But I think from my perspective, success is not about your job that you have. It's not about your job title. And I think it's so easy to define yourself by that. For me, success is cramming into my life all the things that I want to do, just wanting to do all of these different things. And this sort of, it's disaster. We don't get enough time. And so I definitely felt like I've had my corporate career, but.

now it is time to do all these other things. And there's that saying, you can have everything, but not all at the same time. And that is, think earlier in my life, I tried to cram it all into the same time. I mean, that just goes to that whole thing we were talking about about, is this not sustainable? So for me, and now success is being able to do yoga a few times a week and being able to see more of my friends and being able to spend really quality time with my family and...

Roll.

being able to be creatively fulfilled. And of course that means you might need to wind down other elements of your life in terms of how you're spending money. I did find we were spending money mindlessly because we didn't even have time to think about how we were.

Yeah, throw money at the problem,

I had this horrifying experience once when I went to the dry cleaner, because of course I was in corporate wearing a lot of dry cleanable clothing. And they gave me a big Christmas present from Joe Malone. And I thought, my God, this is a horrifying sight. Like when you're dry cleaner is buying you a Christmas present because you're obviously spending a fortune without even thinking about it. You know, you need to kind of reevaluate. Whereas now, you know, I'm obviously in way less fancy clothes, but.

Life is a bit more in balance. I'm a bit more just aware of all of these sorts of things.

Do reckon it's a life stage thing that we come to this point somewhere? Jung, I think, said that the first half of life is about accumulation and the second half of life is about editing and removing. Yeah, we're probably similar stages of life. You reckon that's got a grain of truth to it? I'm curious about could you have done this maybe when you're in your thirties?

Yes, I feel really conflicted on this because I think on the one hand, to have the desire to go off with confidence that you know that this is right path comes with a bit of life experience. So I think you need to have done other things to kind of figure out what it is that you want to do going forward. And I definitely think for me specifically with writing, having done lots of things that don't involve being a writer gives me a lot to write about. Whereas the people who are younger writing,

They end up writing about being writers a lot of the time because that's sort of you write what your world is. So it's given me a lot more material. Having said that, you know, a lot of us don't get the luxury of getting to an age and stage where we then can make these decisions with the confidence that we can move forward because we might've compromised our health or we might've compromised our relationships. So yeah, I think.

Maybe it would have been good to start sort of five years earlier than I did, but I do think it's been nice to kind of go down a path that has given me a little bit of security. So now I can really make the most of this one. I mean, I think I'd be being slightly disingenuous to say, yeah, you I should have gone off and been a writer from day one. The practicalities, you know, affording a roof over your head, all that kind of stuff would be harder.

There's a practicality and a pragmatism to it. you you make the choices when you're ready to make the choices, you know, whether they're foisted upon you from, say, for me, it was a burnout period. I burned out when I was 30. I was a national manager of a recruitment firm. And I often say I had my midlife crisis just decade early, you know, and it was kind of like the benefits of that set me on the path that I'm on now. We don't want crises to be the things that are the catalyst for this. They often are.

But there is something about learning how to think when is the right time and get strategic and get the tools for that earlier in life. Maybe you're not making the decisions. I was speaking at conference yesterday and someone came up to me afterwards and said, you know, we met, we've met before. It's about 10 years ago up in Taipei. And I'd been doing some work for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade up in Taipei. She said, yeah, you ran this workshop for us on career strategy.

and I was young in my career. She said, that changed my whole course. I got the tools that I then started to use not straight away, about five years later. She was speaking at the same conference actually. And I was like, that's awesome. She would have been in her early thirties at the time. And then to hear the story of how she's got equipped, put them in a toolkit and use them when she was ready. So yes, I think we need more of that. You know, like let's educate.

people how to make these sorts of choices and be there when they're ready to support them rather than, again, the crisis being the forcing function.

I think that's right. also have talked to so many lawyers lately who have said, you know, I want to make a change, but I just don't feel like I know what else I could do. And I've said to them, you have so many incredible skills. You are critical thinkers. You can write. You can articulate. You can present. I think people forget that there are so many ways to apply your skills that you can become very sort of claustrophobic in your thinking. And that's why I think

It's so good to, as you say, like give people the tools that you obviously presented at that conference or on your podcast where you're just saying to people, can be done, there are ways you're not by yourself in this. know, there are lots of people that will help you. think the moment you say to a friend, gosh, I want to make a change. don't know how. They're immediately motivated to help work out how you might do that. And so one of the things that

took me to that next stage was talking to my friend Ryan and I'd been saying to him, I thought you were going to set a company and what's happened to that? And he was like, well, you can't talk. I thought you were going to do some writing. Accountability with your friends when you confess your deepest desires.

The ones who remind you of that, right? And sometimes I was reminded last week of something I'd said a few years ago and I hadn't seen this person for a few years and they said to me, yeah, you said you were going to do this thing. And I was like, did I? And he goes, yeah, yeah, how's that going? I'm like, hmm, let me come back to you on that. I'm curious about how has your legal background, how does it serve your creative work now, your writing?

What's the carry through?

The book I wrote is sort of a crime thriller novel. And so everyone assumes that being a lawyer would be helpful, but because I was a banking and finance lawyer, it's actually not as helpful as you might hope. It would have been much better to be a criminal lawyer. But I think that a few things, the legal skills in terms of analysis and language, mean, obviously they're applicable. It's also just the professionalism that comes with.

Having to show up, having to meet deadlines to complete things. I mean, the hardest thing about writing a book is to finish the book. There are so many people who start off and get 20,000 words, 50,000 words into it and run out of steam. And I think my legal training has made me incredibly tenacious. And it might just be a of garbage. I'm also a stubborn person, but if I still have something, I will finish it.

I'm also incredibly motivated by a deadline, which is not necessarily a great thing, but that is from my legal training. So generally if someone says this needs to be done by this date, I will do it. And what I've noticed is when I’m talking to other writers or writing students is a lot of people really struggle with that because I've never been in a corporate environment. I've never had to deliver or be accountable in that way. So I think it's a huge advantage actually. It just, you turn up, you do what you say you'll do.

Things that I just would assume everyone does, the feedback I get from the people in the publishing industry, I'd be surprised how few of the creatives we work with have those basic skills.

I was the same. started as a chartered accountant when those one of those big firms and I reckon the thing I took most from that was the professionalism, learning how to be a professional and what that meant compared to being an amateur and it carries through it just becomes part of how I work. It's an ethos thing. I'm hearing that in you as well.

And you realise that if you don't do your bit, that's going to impact on other people's ability to do their bits. And so that connectivity of whether it's a business transaction or getting a book published or running a booksellers event, if you let down the people that are around you, then they're not going to ask you to come back again. So yeah, it's sort of common sense, but it's amazing to me how few people sort of understand it from the get go.

Let's take a left turn here. Creativity. We're living in a world where AI is all around us, increasingly pervading every day, which is a good thing, I think. Yet there's something about as humans, our propensity to want to create. And potentially there's a tension there, I reckon, between

what AI is offering us, but also what we're awesome at as humans without necessarily having AI. Tell us a bit about your take on that tension.

Yeah, I think it's such an interesting time for all of us. Obviously the disruption we're going to see in the next few years is going to be radical and turn so many assumptions we have about our lives, our careers on their heads. So what I mean by that is, you when I was coming through, as I mentioned earlier, the pathways that we were sent down career-wise were like law, accounting, medicine, because they were safe. They're things you could do for the rest of your lives. There would always be a job. If you talk to people who are specialists in any of those fields, they'll say,

actually AI is going to disrupt them and in fact those junior law positions or accounting positions or even in some areas of medicine, those jobs will sort of cease to exist in a way because there'll be AI replacing it. So how do you then bring people up through the ranks to senior roles? And what does that career pathway look like? I think that's going to be really squiggly. It's not going to be linear and there'll be no guarantee of a partnership role with a lot of money at the end of it. So I think...

when we're talking to our kids about what they might want to do in their futures, creativity or things that are essentially human will become so much more valuable personally. I mean, I'm no expert in AI, but I think it will be very hard for a machine, even with all of the programming and access to data and all of these copyrighted materials that they're ingesting, I just don't think the output is ever going to be.

as resonant as something created by a human. And I think, you whether it's drama or dance or fine art, the things that humans are creating, not because they're trying to sell something at end of the day, but because they want to express what it means to be a human in this world, that will always have a place for us.

I love that. And I think there's the other side of that audience where the audience wants to experience humans being humans. know, there's something about deep in our nature is this need to connect with other humans. I'm just at the tail end of reading Humankind, which is incredible book to me about the fundamental nature of humanity is to be good. And when we connect, amazing things happen. It's almost like not a conscious thought to me that

When I'm experiencing humanity as opposed to non-humanity, deep down I know it and I sense it and it's almost like I can't put my finger on it. Yet we need to keep that front and center. This is what it means to be a human, not just to create, but to experience creativity.

Yeah, I think that's exactly right. And I know there'll be lots of hybrid forms of creative output. So there'll be books that are co-authored by humans and bots, or there'll be, you know, visual art or whatever. But I think the human role in that is irreplaceable. I've read a few AI authored pieces of fiction and I mean, they're dreadful. And I think it's because they have no soul. Yeah. And I know that may change. And there'll be AI experts saying yes, but...

give us another six months or another six years and it'll be book a prize, quality. I find that hard to believe. I think you ultimately know when you're looking at something or reading something, whether there is like a soul in it. anyway, that's important for me. But I mean, as an author going into this environment, there's obviously readers who will be happy to read a book a day that's been authored.

They don't care who the author is, as long as it shows up on their Kindle Unlimited, they'll be happy. But then there'll be other people that want to read something that has taken five years of an author's life and it sort of blood, and tears. And it's their personal experience on this planet. And I think as long as we ensure that there is that choice still available and that people can choose to still read a book written by a human and that they know when there is sort of an AI author involved, think then people can make their own decisions.

I interviewed a lady called Kate Christiansen in an earlier episode of the podcast and she wrote a book called The Answer Trap, which is the trap we fall into when we're rushing to answers. And she nearly wrote that book using AI and she opens the book with this story. One thing I took from that conversation was that the wrestle of learning how to express something also makes us human. You know, what am I trying to say here? What am I trying to actually put out in the world? And

That process grows us. It helps us own it, you know, in a different way.

Absolutely, Joan Didion, the very famous American essayist and writer, she said something to that effect, you I don't even know what I am trying to say until I've written it. Because as you say, it's this process of selecting the exact right word and editing it and just refining it into what you've put on the page as your essential thought. And it takes time to arrive at that. And so I think if you are...

looking at an AI model that sort scoops up bits and pieces of what's been written and assembles it. There, of course, there'll be some meaning to be drawn from it, but I think that's quite different from a specific individual's way of communicating and their own voice, because we all have a different way of expressing ideas and thoughts. So, yeah, it's a really interesting territory. I think- Oh, it's fascinating. isn't going to play out, but it is so interesting to think about.

What are the conversations around the dinner table with your kids, maybe even your husband, sound like when you're talking about this, when we're nurturing kids moving into the world and becoming young adults, how are you having conversations about this?

It's really interesting in our family because my husband, he works in telecommunications, but they're doing a lot in the AI space. And so he is often up in Silicon Valley coming back with reports of the latest sort of developments. And he was basically saying, the OpenAI people are saying that in five years, the quality of the general AI will be 4,000 times more capable than the smartest human brain. So in other words, we're in this entirely new.

frontier and what does that mean in terms of manipulating atoms and all sorts of things. And so two of our children, the 18 year old and the 12 year old were like, wow, that's so cool. That's amazing. And our 14 year old was like, that sounds like the end of humanity. You know, we had this whole very sort of existential discussion about how do you regulate that and, and how the power to use it for good. Cause of course there'll be so much positivity associated with this. You know, even I was listening to the radio this morning, they were talking about.

big wait lists for radiographers and a lot of medical procedures. And of course AI will be able to come in and cut wait lists and do lots of clinical diagnosis. I guess that will be amazing. But then on the other hand, there are all these drawbacks in terms of the technology getting into the wrong hands and with people that aren't ethical. I think that's easy to catastrophize. I where I land as an optimist in the end and going back to your point about what you've been reading, this idea that

humankind is ultimately a powerful good. I do think of course there are some unethical people out there, but we've been at the verge of catastrophe for generations and every new technological advancement comes with all of these dire warnings. And of course we have to be vigilant, but I do think in the end there's enough goodwill and good people out there to kind of make this overall positive. you know, we all do just have to take responsibility for learning, I guess.

holding those in power to account as hard as it is in the world that we currently live in.

And it starts with you. know, you said at the start of a conversation, I'm looking forward to getting to know you better. And what I'm getting a picture of is someone who does take responsibility for you and your well-being and therefore by extension, that of the people around you.

That to me is where we have to start. It's like, what choices do we have now? What choices do I have now about where I take things, where I put my focus? And yeah, it's lovely to experience that in conversation with you. It's a, mean, reading the book, you know, See How They Fall, your first book, there's that flavor coming through, but also the antithesis of that coming through to me. I'm curious about how that'll show up in your second book. When will that come out?

Because if you don't enjoy the process, then it's all for nothing. You just have to make the most of that. I'm so lucky that I get to sit down and fiddle around with words for my living now. I mean, that's just such a wonderful thing from my perspective.

Absolutely. This feels like a lovely place to bring it to a close. And I want to ask you, so we've had a lovely conversation. Thank you. What have you learned or been reminded of through our conversation?

Gosh, just how wonderful it is to take time to think about these sorts of issues and to connect with people. And as I said, know, I, in my previous life would never have been on a podcast and the fact that we get to this chat and you've taught me a lot. I've got a few books that you've mentioned that I have to go out and read and just that, yeah, putting energy into new things is always a worthwhile pursuit.

Love that. And your book, See How They Fall, where can people find it? I'm assuming all places, good books are sold.

All the usual places, if you can, support your local independent bookseller. Please do, but otherwise it's, know, these Whitcoulls, Paper Plus, Amazon, all of those sorts of places.

And if people want to connect with you, how might they do that?

I'm on LinkedIn, Rachel Paris. I'm also on Instagram, my handle is at Rachel Paris Author.

Awesome. Rachel, thank you so much. It's informative, thought provoking, uplifting, all the things I hope. Brilliant. Thank you.

Thanks so much for having me, Digby.

reflection before we wrap up. A few years ago when I referred to my burnout in that conversation, a few years ago I did a Toastmasters talk and when you're first joined Toastmasters they get you to do what they call an icebreaker which is three minutes and mine was just after about a year after I had that burnout and I caught it defined success and I told the story of a bit like Rachel I'd been a rat in a mill, rat in a wheel and

the essential practice of defining what success means to you. And I love how that came up in this conversation again, that define what success means to you. I think it's often really hard to do that, but really essential to be able to go, what really sustains me? What really gives life meaning? And then start to build that into your life. That's one of the big takeouts for me from this conversation, that lovely reminder. Wondering what it is for you? What's this got you thinking and maybe?

deciding to experiment with. One thing you could try is just sharing this episode with someone who you trust. Maybe it's someone who is going, what do I do next? Or maybe you're asking that question, you could just share it with someone who could be a great sounding board for you. I reckon there's a lot of value in doing that. If you liked some of the stuff we talked about there, you might love episode 32 with Kate Christansen, where we talk about her book, The Answer Trap.

particularly around this wrestle with creativity and what does it mean to be human. Another angle to dive into there. Also, I'll put the link to the book Humankind in the show notes for you to check out as well. As ever, you can also get everything I produce in written form at digbyscott.com. I'm Digby Scott, this is Dig Deeper and until next time, go well.