In this special bonus episode of This Shit Works, host Julie Brown explores the fascinating balance between being likable and being a badass with guest Alison Fragale, author of Likable Badass: How Women Get the Success They Deserve. Julie and Alison break down the psychology of power vs. status, the importance of warmth in leadership, and why self-promotion is vital—especially for introverts.

Julie and Alison also touch on the value of relationships in career success, the impact of humor in building warmth, and the role of networking in achieving your goals. Don’t miss this episode filled with actionable insights, empowering advice, and a reminder that the people you meet can change your life.

Key Topics:

• The difference between power and status
• Why caring about what others think isn’t bad advice
• The introvert’s guide to self-promotion
• The importance of networking and how people you meet change your life

Grab Alison's book, Likable Badass, hitting shelves on September 3rd!

Drink of the week….Queen Anne Cocktail

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Alison Fragale

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LIKABLE BADASS

In today's special bonus episode, we're diving into two intriguing words.

2

Likeable, an adjective meaning

pleasant, friendly, and easy to like.

3

And then, badass.

4

As an adjective, it means tough,

uncompromising, and intimidating.

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As a noun, it describes a

person with those attributes.

6

Traditionally, we might not

associate the term badass with women,

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especially in the business world.

8

Is badass a noun reserved for

men or can women embody this

9

fierce uncompromising spirit too?

10

Can women be both likable and badass?

11

And if so, what can we expect

from this fascinating combination?

12

Welcome to episode 200 of the

Shitworks, a podcast dedicated to

13

all things networking, relationship

building, and business development.

14

I'm your host, Julie Brown, speaker,

author, and networking coach.

15

And today I am joined by

Alison Fregale, author of the

16

upcoming book, Likeable Badass.

17

How women get the success they deserve.

18

As you know, friends, I put the

podcast on hold while I work on

19

the proposal for my second book.

20

But sometimes an author, a subject,

or an idea is too good to pass up

21

when it comes across your desk.

22

And that is exactly what happened when my

friend and former podcast guest, Nicole

23

Khalil, introduced me to our guest list.

24

Today, Alison is the Mary Farley

Ames Lee distinguished scholar

25

of organizational behavior at the

university of North Carolina, Chapel

26

Hill school of business as a research

psychologist, award winning professor

27

and international keynote speaker.

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She's on a mission to help others,

especially women use behavioral

29

science to work and live better.

30

Well, doesn't all of that sound amazing.

31

So let's dive in.

32

Shall we, Alison, welcome to the podcast.

33

Alison: Thank you so much for having me.

34

And I did not know it was episode 200.

35

I feel kind of giddy about

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Julie: I know, right.

37

I like it.

38

I like it.

39

Yeah.

40

I was like, I'm going to have the

episode 200 has to be something special.

41

It has to be a bonus episode.

42

So, um, listen, thank you.

43

You sent me your book.

44

I've got it.

45

Thank you so much.

46

One of the first things you cover

in the book is the difference

47

between power And status.

48

And I love that you say that power,

things like money, a seat at the table,

49

these are things that you can earn.

50

But status, you know, how much you're

respected, how much you're valued,

51

that lives in the minds of others.

52

Can we break that down a little bit?

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Alison: 100%.

54

So this is a key distinction.

55

So power is controlling resources

that other people value.

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So it is money at life or in work.

57

It's a title that gives you

authority to say yes or no to give

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someone a good or bad performance

review to spend the budget.

59

So when we get in control

of resources, we have power.

60

Status, as you point out, is how respected

and regarded we are by other people,

61

and, um, and that, with that definition,

what it means is that power is something

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we can possess, even if people wished

it weren't so, so you could have a boss

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and the boss is in charge, even if you

don't like the boss, and you, you know,

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you know, one really Um, uh, values

the boss, but the boss still has the

65

control status is a decision that other

people make in their brains about us.

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Do I value this person?

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Do I respect this person?

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And so we can influence both power

and status, but it's important to

69

recognize that we only get as much

status as other people say we have.

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We can create the right conditions,

but it's not a guarantee that if we

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have the right, uh, accomplishment

on our resume, or we've done the

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right work, that it always translates

into other people valuing us.

73

And that's a challenge that women in

particular, among others have had for a

74

really long time, which is I've done all

the things, but I'm not getting in that

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person's brain, the status that I deserve.

76

And that's really what I care a

lot about and help people try to

77

figure out one, what it is, and

then how do you get more of it?

78

Julie: And this is something

that is harder for women to

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achieve than men because of

systemically, the way that we view.

80

You know, power imbalance

between women or status imbalance

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between women and men, correct?

82

Alison: That's right.

83

So in, if I get, if I get.

84

professory for a second.

85

So, uh, gender is what we call an

ascribed status characteristic, meaning

86

that we tend to award one group greater

respect than others, men more than women.

87

And that's based on something that the

person does not control and that has no

88

meaning, but we've given it some meaning.

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And so there's a, there's lots of

ascribed status characteristics,

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appearance, ethnicity, accent, race.

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It's not just gender.

92

There's lots of things the ways in which

we show up in the world that people

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say that's worth more or that's worth

less and none of it has any meaning and

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that's why we think of it as systemic

bias but it has impact because it leads

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people in their brains to say oh that

person's idea is a better idea because

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of the you know the ascribed status of

who it came from oh that person's idea

97

must not be very good so yeah that's

why it's harder for women is because

98

gender is one of the many many things

that affects how much people respect us.

99

Julie: and I would assume that we're

confusing the two sometimes That if we

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have power if we are making money if we

have that title then we have status But

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i'm assuming there's a confusion sometimes

102

Alison: That's right.

103

So they can go together.

104

You can think of somebody who's in

control and everyone really respects them.

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So let's say, uh, in an organization,

you might have a leader and

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everyone really values that leader.

107

And they also are in charge.

108

Those then power and status are,

are high in, in, in that individual.

109

But yes, people can have

one, but not the other.

110

So we're going to talk about that.

111

Um, one of the areas where

I've studied a lot is what we

112

call low status power holders.

113

Somebody who's in charge but

isn't particularly respected.

114

And sometimes that could be

because of the position they hold.

115

It could be, you know, if you're a

gatekeeper to a resource, if you're

116

the one who controls the budget

or is in compliance or HR and you

117

enforce the rules, sometimes you

get in that low status power holder.

118

It's like you're standing in our

way, but you have the final say.

119

Sometimes it's about the job and

sometimes it's about the person where

120

the person has a lot of power, but

that person isn't really respected.

121

And so, yes, those are separate.

122

Dimensions, um, that do

not necessarily co vary.

123

So we cannot assume that simply because

we've gotten promoted, or we're in

124

charge, or we have a certain level of

wealth, even that people necessarily

125

then give us the respect that we're due.

126

So they don't, they don't always co vary.

127

Um, but the other direction, having

being real well respected, Is a

128

really good launching point for

getting more power, because we want

129

to put resources in the hands of the

people we think will use them well.

130

So if someone is a highly respected

individual, they have set themselves

131

up well for being able to acquire

to negotiate for more power in their

132

life or in their career, because

people are going to want to Yeah,

133

Julie: I've heard some people say, you

shouldn't care what other people think.

134

And I've always laughed at the saying,,

other people's opinions is none of my

135

business, , but you're saying that

there's, there's something that in that

136

statement that is, is holding us back.

137

What, what do you mean by that?

138

Like when we say we don't care about

what other people think about it.

139

Alison: so it's very common to hear that.

140

Oftentimes it's offered, um, to

try to make somebody feel better if

141

they're got to had a bad outcome.

142

Um, you know, and as a parent, I say

that sometimes to my kids, I was told

143

that myself, and I always offer it in

moments where the kid is disappointed

144

that another person isn't valuing them.

145

And it's natural at that point

to say, well, it doesn't matter.

146

And in some level, that could

be accurate, but it's not.

147

But then if we take that to an extreme,

we can end up with bad outcomes.

148

The idea is that a lot of our, um,

happiness and success is dependent

149

on what other people believe about

us, because that we all have to

150

interact with other human beings.

151

We want friends.

152

We need to be able to,

Um, sell things at work.

153

We need to be able to have colleagues

who will help us out on projects.

154

We need to be able to advance in our

career and have somebody say, I'm

155

going to go in that meeting and tell

everyone what great work you did and,

156

you know, help you get the promotion.

157

So, so much of our ability to live

the life we want is other is working

158

with and through other people.

159

So if those people don't value us.

160

then all those things get harder

and life gets more miserable.

161

So we understand it, but there's a

natural tendency to say, forget about it.

162

It seems so hard to control

what's in your brain.

163

I'm not even going to try.

164

Um, and I try to help unpack the

science so that I say to people, you

165

do not need to sit at home obsessing

about what everybody thinks about you.

166

But that doesn't mean you shouldn't

be strategic about showing up in

167

ways that will allow you to get

maximum credit for your awesomeness.

168

in other people's minds.

169

And so it's not an obsession or a

rumination, but it is a recognition that

170

if other people think that I have value

to bring, that will probably make my

171

life better in a lot of different ways.

172

And does it have to be

everybody at all times?

173

No.

174

But I don't like the idea of people

thinking that not caring, about their

175

audience is a, is a badge of honor.

176

If someone was a salesperson and

they said, um, you know what?

177

I don't care what my customers think.

178

It doesn't matter.

179

You would say that salesperson

is going to be broke, right?

180

And unemployed in a year,

because of course you have to

181

care what your customers think.

182

You need to say, what's

the problem you want?

183

And how can my product

help solve your problem?

184

And if I don't care about what you

think, how am I going to sell anything?

185

It's no different for us, right?

186

We are selling our brand and we do

need to understand how it's seen.

187

And if it's not seen the way it

deserves to be seen, just like if I'm

188

selling something, I got to tweak it

because I know what I have is great.

189

And if you're not interested yet,

well, maybe it's just cause I

190

haven't found the right approach.

191

Julie: So I have two follow

up questions to that.

192

I'll ask them at the same time

and then you can pick which

193

one you want to answer first.

194

One would be, what is an example

of showing up where you get maximum

195

credit for your awesomeness?

196

And number two, where is the line on

the brand being not, not everybody's

197

cup of tea, but, but for those that

follow you, for those that buy your

198

product, for those that hire you,

like that brand is perfect for them.

199

Like you cannot please them.

200

Everybody and I've learned that with my

own brand that my way of doing things

201

is a turnoff to some organizations

and for other organizations.

202

I'm exactly who they're

looking for on stage.

203

So I'd love to know where where's the

knife's edge on not caring, but care,

204

Alison: Absolutely.

205

Yeah.

206

There is space for strategy

and authenticity to coexist.

207

Let me go with the first question first

about what's an example of, of how

208

you know how to do, how to do this?

209

Um, generally speaking and where

the title of the book comes from is,

210

and we, we might get into that, but

basically there's a science to status.

211

Yes, we want people to respect

us, but those decisions that

212

people make aren't random.

213

They're based on some predictable

things that everyone is looking for.

214

And if we know those things, we

can show up in ways that say to

215

another person's brain, Hey, I

have what you're looking for.

216

And the two things are, we respect people

when we see them as really capable.

217

They can get shit done.

218

We give them a task.

219

They're going to crush it.

220

They're going to, they're,

they're competent.

221

They're persistent.

222

They're dedicated.

223

They're organized.

224

We value those qualities.

225

Um, and so if I show somebody I'm

really capable, that is valuable.

226

The other thing we care about is.

227

How caring are you?

228

Do you, do you value

people other than yourself?

229

That's the likable piece.

230

Again, not just being likable, but

do you add value to other people?

231

We want, we don't want a

self interested person.

232

We want somebody who is going

to put good out into the world.

233

So anytime you can showcase

that I am capable, well.

234

And I care about people other than

myself, you have done the thing you need

235

to do to it to increase the likelihood

or that someone will respect you.

236

So what are easy ways to do this?

237

Sometimes it's just a simple tweak.

238

So I say, like, you know,

I still today, right?

239

We meet a lot of people for coffee,

maybe less than we did before COVID.

240

But still, you meet someone for coffee.

241

It's a professional You don't know

them very well and you think, I'm going

242

to buy your coffee or you meet him

for lunch and I'll pay for the lunch,

243

you know, that's a nice thing to do.

244

Um, and you do it because you think,

oh, it's polite and it's definitely

245

how I'm going to build my brand.

246

I want to be seen, I don't

want to be seen as a taker.

247

So I'm going to offer to pay, right?

248

Here's the challenge though,

is that you could pay too.

249

Like me buying your coffee is

very caring, it's nice, but it's

250

not, it doesn't showcase me as

particularly capable, right?

251

I, I could, you, anyone

could have done it.

252

Um, and so thinking about how do I

tweak how I show up just in a little

253

way to do something that showcases

my capability a little bit more.

254

So I, for example, talk a lot about being

able to, you know, Instead of buying

255

coffee, how about make an introduction?

256

So we got introduced through Nicole.

257

That was amazing.

258

And when you introduce somebody

and you open up another opportunity

259

for them, one, it doesn't take much

more effort than buying the coffee.

260

It's an email, right?

261

And two, it actually distinguishes

you as not only caring, I'm

262

willing to use my network for

your benefit, but also capable.

263

I know people who are

important and interesting.

264

And so that could be a simple shift.

265

And this is one of the personal.

266

rules that I live by is every time

I meet new people, I think, who

267

would they benefit from meeting?

268

And I introduced them and super

quick, but it allows me to show up

269

as more unique than simply, Hey,

I'll pay for the coffee next time.

270

And that's what I try to help

people think about is things

271

that aren't derailing your day.

272

They don't feel inauthentic.

273

You're like, if I have a mutually

beneficial introduction, I'm

274

perfectly happy to make it.

275

But once they understand the

science of capable plus caring, they

276

start to recognize, Hey, Oh, okay.

277

If I just did that little thing more

often that I like doing, that could

278

be a way that I could start to stay

in front of my audience as a person of

279

value who's using that value for others.

280

And that's what gets me respect.

281

Julie: I, there's a quote

and I'm sure you've heard it.

282

And I'm, I apologize for not knowing

exactly who to credit it to, but

283

there is a quote that says in five

years, you'll be the same exact person

284

you are today, except for the books

you read and the people you meet.

285

And I always think about that quote,

especially cause I teach networking, but

286

also because there is so much knowledge

in, in books and people will say, Oh,

287

every book has already been written,

but it hasn't, you know, especially

288

something like yours, likeable badass.

289

Um, I do want to get to the second part

of that question, which is if we know

290

that people need to like us and we have

to be aware of what people think of us,

291

like where is the line to which we are

true to ourselves and true to the brand

292

and true to who we are and where we're

just trying to please people and have

293

people like us for likeability sake.

294

Alison: Absolutely.

295

So, uh, the, I think about

when you're going to.

296

When you're going to use your status and

you're going to say, I'm going to spend

297

some of this, I'm going to do something.

298

And at the end of this, you might see

me as less capable than you did before.

299

Or you might see me as less

caring than you did before.

300

Is it worth it?

301

Or am I going to spend

time to invest in you?

302

The way I think about this is to

start at the end of, of something

303

like the end of your career.

304

The end of you in this current

job you're in, or the end of you

305

in five years, whatever it is.

306

Start at the end of

something and work backward.

307

And, and so, one task that I give

people, exercise that I give people,

308

is imagine a going away party for you.

309

Either when you've retired, you've left

the role you're in, whatever it is.

310

And people will come, and they will give

toasts, and they will say nice things.

311

things about you.

312

And the question is, what

do you want them to say?

313

What do you want them to

say that you've achieved?

314

And what do you want them to say

about the person that you are?

315

And in doing this, everybody wants

that event to be positive and they want

316

to be celebrated, but people want to

be celebrated in very different ways.

317

So one of the things I ask people

is, um, Like what are the top

318

three characteristics you want

people to use to describe you?

319

So, um, I have, um, uh, generous,

humorous, and principled.

320

Julie: Okay.

321

Alison: And those are

three that I really value.

322

And when I have those, they help me

figure out what is worth, standing

323

up for, what is worth What's worth

building a bridge, what's worth

324

burning a bridge, and what's not.

325

So, as an example, um, I, uh,

feel like how I use social media,

326

I generally use social media as a

way to be generous and humorous.

327

These are two of my goals, right?

328

And so if it doesn't make you

laugh or it doesn't help you

329

out, I don't put it up there.

330

So when someone says something on social

media, that's kind of nasty to me,

331

when someone says or something I don't

really agree with, but it's not harmful.

332

It's just their opinion.

333

I let it go.

334

Because why?

335

It's not in the, in the long term of what

I'm trying to achieve, doing those things

336

and, and, and losing status in those

relationships isn't necessarily worth it.

337

So there's, that's how I help people

think about what's worth doing

338

and what's not, but principled.

339

If I feel like another woman or a person

is being devalued or disrespected, it's

340

And or that there's a process that's

not being applied fairly them and other

341

people that gets me really angry, and

it attacks this other core value I

342

have a principled and I will stand up

for those things and I will say, it

343

doesn't matter if at the end of this

you like me less, or you don't want to.

344

You don't want to hire me.

345

I'm okay with that because it violates

what I consider to be correct so I

346

you know, even um, I just had a had a

situation where I was gonna I did speak

347

at an event and The Organizers we had

said we agreed for me speaking They would

348

do a B C and D for me and right before

we went they said I'm gonna do a B C

349

and D for You and when I got home and I

said, okay You Can I have A, B, C, and D?

350

They said, Oh, we didn't do those things.

351

And I had a question, decision to make,

am I going to say, Hey, I don't think you

352

did the right thing in this relationship,

you didn't really treat me right.

353

Or am I going to keep

my mouth shut about it?

354

Because keeping my mouth shut might be,

you know, they'll like me more then.

355

And I said, no, I think if we

agreed to something and you didn't

356

do it on principle, I am going to

say that wasn't the right thing.

357

And I'm going to speak up for maybe all

the people who before me didn't feel

358

like they had the standing to speak up.

359

And I'm going to say, just so you

know, when you're in a relationship

360

like this, and you don't honor that.

361

That.

362

is hurtful and harmful to me.

363

And so I did, but principled

was what allowed me to say,

364

that's a risk worth taking.

365

So this is my general, those are

my specific examples, but the

366

general idea is if you figure out

where you're going at the end, I

367

always use the idea of a marathon.

368

We just came out of Olympics, right?

369

You watch these amazing athletes and

you know what they don't do to get

370

to their, the, the, to the Olympics.

371

They don't wake up one every day and

say, Um, I want to run really fast.

372

Like I want to be the

world's fastest person.

373

I'm just going to try to run

faster today than I did yesterday.

374

And then I'll just keep

doing that every day.

375

And eventually I'll get to the Olympics.

376

That's like not a training plan, right?

377

Doesn't work.

378

They have a goal that's okay in four

years, I need this time to qualify.

379

Okay.

380

What does that mean for

my training plan today?

381

What does that mean?

382

I do.

383

And I don't do, that's how we want

to think about our relationships

384

is you can't be everything to

everybody, but if you really

385

understand, what do I most want to be.

386

Then, when choices have to be made,

you can figure out, is this a time

387

to preserve my status, or to build

my status, or is this a time to use

388

the status that I do have to solve a

problem that's really important to me?

389

Julie: When we were talking about how

you show up to get maximum credit,

390

you've said capable and caring a number

of times, capable and caring together.

391

And warmth is a big, in the book,

warmth is a big component of being

392

a likable badass to which I say

shit because I don't think I'm like

393

the warmest person in the world.

394

So I feel like What is your advice to

somebody who's reading this who wants

395

to be a likable badass who but they're

like I'm not a warm and fuzzy person.

396

I'm just not I am I am I am filled with

sarcasm and wit and salty humor, but warm,

397

warm is not the way people describe me.

398

Yeah,

399

Alison: and wit and sarcasm

get, they go in warmth.

400

You wouldn't think they do, but they do.

401

So here's how this works.

402

Warmth is, you know, I use

the word warmth in the book.

403

I use the word caring in our conversation.

404

Same thing.

405

The idea is, do other people

see value in that you're adding

406

value to them, not just yourself.

407

Humor is a warmth building

because it's cohesive.

408

And when you make somebody

laugh, they feel good.

409

And even if your humor is sarcastic,

um, that can be a warmth building thing.

410

So the beauty of warmth is that there's

not just one characteristic, right?

411

That the list of characteristics

that, that, uh, comprise

412

that dimension are many.

413

Sincere, honest, helpful,

agreeable, giving.

414

So you don't have to do everything.

415

But here's what I always say about the

book is, um, I'm going to take as baseline

416

that people reading it have some talents

to share to the world, whatever they

417

are, and they care about somebody, at

least somebody other than themselves.

418

If neither of those things are

true, I cannot help you, but

419

you do care about other people.

420

And then the question is, what's

the authentic way to let that out?

421

And the, there doesn't have to be one way.

422

So I, like you, I am super sarcastic.

423

I love humor.

424

Um, that's been a calling card for me.

425

I'm a terrible smiler.

426

, but I do, um, love, complimenting people.

427

And so I'm a good complimenter.

428

I go out of my way to always, when I

see somebody say something nice about

429

them, I put those things on social media.

430

I spend a lot of my time on

social media shouting out

431

other people I think are great.

432

Those kind of things are warm, too.

433

And so, um, The idea of fine,

you have to find your way.

434

The reality is liking , and the warmth is

such a strong, um, Like, uh, fundamental

435

, basis of cohesion in relationships, we

have to find our way, it's not optional,

436

but the beauty is everyone has a way, so

I think trying on someone else's clothes

437

to do what they do is not gonna work,

but thinking about what's authentic to

438

you, and I've never had a person who I've

looked at and said, oh, yeah, you don't

439

do anything, That's good for other people.

440

You know, you're the most

selfish person I've ever met.

441

It's just about tweaking

it to get credit for it.

442

And that's where I feel really good

about helping people, especially

443

women who have inherited a problem

they do not deserve, is to say, yes,

444

you don't deserve it, but you're

still in the best position to fix it.

445

And guess what?

446

Fixing it doesn't require you

to be a different person or

447

someone you don't want to be.

448

It just requires you to

think, what do I like to do?

449

Like if, you know, and, and again, like

buying somebody's coffee, for example,

450

or I, you know, someone's like, I

really, gifts are my love language.

451

Like I like sending cute, I have a

friend who sends thank you cards or like

452

thinking of you cards for everything.

453

I find every time I have to write a card,

super tedious, but I got one from her

454

that just said, You looked awesome today.

455

She ran into me on the street.

456

We talked for five minutes.

457

She liked what I was wearing and she

went home and she wrote a card about it.

458

But she has a whole host of cards

that she loves to That's her thing.

459

So I just say find your

thing and then that's it.

460

You're all with it.

461

Julie: I'm a big card sender.

462

Um, probably cause I do so much

research into the average number

463

of emails that the corporate worker

gets every day, which is 129.

464

Um, and you know, Just nobody

gets good things in the mail.

465

It's a bill or it's, or it's, you know,

um, media mail or something like that.

466

So I'm very big on, on sending cards.

467

Alison: See?

468

And you're funny and

you're so that you're warm.

469

We've settled it.

470

It's done.

471

Debate over.

472

Julie: Done.

473

She leaves a warm person.

474

Alison: Julie is very warm.

475

Julie: Okay.

476

A question about self promotion.

477

I think self promotion

be difficult for anybody.

478

But I speak to a lot of introverts

who are trying to be better

479

networkers and you say you have an

introvert's guide to self promotion.

480

What is that and how can that help

introverts be likable badasses,

481

build, um, you know, promoters of

their, of their brand or of their,

482

their person or of their career?

483

Alison: Absolutely.

484

So I am a talkative introvert.

485

So I speak not just from science, but also

from personal experience of doing this.

486

All right.

487

So first is everybody, regardless of

whether they label themselves introvert

488

or extrovert, would serve themselves

well to push into their zone of

489

discomfort at times, just a little bit.

490

Don't need to be a fundamentally

different than who you are, but like,

491

how could I do a little bit more?

492

So, um, one, you know, easy

ways to meet more people.

493

I am.

494

A classic that my husband and I always

joke, he's in finance where he has

495

to go to a lot of events that have

like the big cocktail party before

496

them and the dinner where you sit

next to it and don't know anybody.

497

And he sends me a text and he says,

I'm in your version of hell right now.

498

You know, I've just talked

to all these people.

499

And so I'm the kind of person

who wants to withdraw from that.

500

Um, but I, what I do is say you

need to meet more people because

501

continuously meeting people is you

never know where the next person who's

502

going to build your status, the next

person who's going to help you out.

503

You never know where they come from

and I'll give you some crazy examples.

504

Um, and so what I say is give yourself

many goals that you can handle.

505

So for example, I cannot

handle the cocktail party.

506

That is just not going to be my thing,

but I'm going to walk around and I'm

507

going to Say hello to 10 people, either

10 people I already know, or 10 people

508

that I'm meeting for the first time.

509

And when I've hit those 10,

which I can probably do in 20

510

minutes or less, I'm out of there.

511

That's a much better use of your time

as an introvert than forcing yourself

512

to stand there the entire time and

talking to the one person you don't

513

know and complaining how you wish you

were in your room checking your email.

514

Secondly.

515

Um, uh, Um, Oh, and so I'll say

like some of my best other promoters

516

have come from random people.

517

I've met at the airport, including

recently when a woman asked me

518

to watch her stuff while she

went to the bathroom and I did.

519

And then when she came back, I saw

her flight was delayed on her phone.

520

So I asked her if we

were on the same flight.

521

No, but we but she lives in my

childhood hometown, Pittsburgh.

522

I start chatting with her.

523

Um, I Give her I have get I have

little, um, likeable, badass

524

luggage tags in my, um, my bag.

525

I give her one.

526

I'm like, Hey, here, this is for you.

527

Since you travel a lot, I leave

by the time I get to my gate.

528

She's looked me up on LinkedIn.

529

She's connected with me.

530

And she said, I really

like the work you're doing.

531

Um, And I think there's a lot of ways

that I could actually help you out.

532

And so we're meeting this week and

this was a flight like a week ago.

533

And so just a little bit of discomfort

of, yeah, I'll watch your stuff.

534

A little conversation

can, can be very helpful.

535

The second thing is you can do a lot of

your self promotion from behind a screen.

536

So it doesn't all have to be FaceTime.

537

Um, things like, um, I talk about how

to use your out of office message.

538

I'm away from my desk with more.

539

Right with more intention a lot of them

are just like i'm out until you know,

540

august 27th Um, if you need assistance

call this person well just with like a

541

couple little more pieces of information

Are you at an industry conference

542

right where you're learning something?

543

Are you traveling because um, you are

uh, Uh selling to a client are you on

544

vacation, but you can say something

funny about your your vacation And

545

I think nicole is great at this.

546

In fact, I don't know if you've

ever gotten her out of offices

547

but I Um, she said I read hers

and they're just hilarious.

548

So if you're a funny person, tell

your funny stories about your travel

549

snafus with your kids or whatever.

550

And so that's an example.

551

Um, sending emails that are update emails

about the work that you've done where

552

you compliment the great work of other

people who have also been part of it.

553

I promote myself while I'm

promoting other people.

554

I do it through an email.

555

No conversation needs to happen.

556

So using our, our, our virtual tools

and then social media, I would say

557

is, um, another one, which is that if

you are a person who spends any time

558

on social media, it is a great way.

559

to get your name and your ideas in

front of lots of people without really

560

having to have the one on one engagement

that introverts find really exhausting.

561

You can just put, if you're reading stuff

that's interesting, put value out there.

562

It's quick to do, it reaches a

lot of people even if you have

563

a small network, there's not a

lot of face to face interaction.

564

So these are the ways I start to, to help

people think about pushing just a little

565

beyond your comfort using virtual tools.

566

And then a third one, I'll,

I'll add it and then I'll.

567

I'll pause is, is, um, recruiting

other people to help us.

568

So self promotion is positive information

about me that originates with me.

569

And there's no getting around that because

if we Tell people nothing about ourselves.

570

If they never see us,

then we have no brand.

571

We have no existence.

572

It has to start with

something we've said, right?

573

Something they've heard about us.

574

And so we have to start it, but

other people can amplify it.

575

And that's one of the things I want

people to really understand is that,

576

like, I'll keep coming back to Nicole.

577

We're gonna tell her she was the

star of this, of this episode 200.

578

So when Nicole says something nice about

me, like, hey, I talked to Allison.

579

You would really enjoy Allison.

580

Keep in mind.

581

As the introvert, I didn't

have to do anything.

582

I was probably like sitting in

a room by myself with a book

583

and my status was being built.

584

And so if we can, um, use other people

to build our status for us, then that

585

can not only is it super efficient for

everybody, it's also super comfortable

586

for the introvert who doesn't want

to be out there telling their story.

587

Someone else is telling it, but one

of the, but we have to make it happen.

588

And one of the ways to make

that happen is for you.

589

Julie: Mm hmm,

590

Alison: a simple behavior that I give

to everybody is, if you did nothing

591

else in the world, that every time you

thought a great thought about somebody

592

else, you, you, you told somebody,

would benefit so much from that,

593

because we always want to reciprocate.

594

So when one person's going, when people

are going around saying good things about

595

me, I can't wait to find opportunities

to say good things about them.

596

So even as an introvert, it might be way

less uncomfortable for me to say, Oh, I

597

can say good things about other people.

598

That's not so draining.

599

It's just, I don't like

talking about myself.

600

So go do that.

601

Go tell everybody the great things

you believe about other people in your

602

network when it gets back to them.

603

Cause it will, they will look to

do those things for you, even if

604

you haven't asked them directly.

605

And so those are the kinds of tools that

I think that we all can benefit from.

606

But even if the idea of, Being

out there and talking to new

607

people is super unpleasant.

608

We have a lot of tools at our

disposal to make it feel comfortable.

609

Julie: Yeah, I think one of the great

places to do this is on LinkedIn.

610

We're all professionals.

611

We're all trying to build

a brand on LinkedIn.

612

And commenting, I, I mean, I'm so

grateful when, when I put up posts,

613

when people say this was helpful.

614

Oh, I love your videos or whatever,

you know, I'm so grateful.

615

so much.

616

That I constantly have to remind myself,

like, this feeling you're feeling, you

617

need to give it back to other people.

618

So when people are posting, and you

read their post, and it's helpful,

619

or it's funny, or it's anything,

it's an update, like, make sure

620

you are giving that feeling back.

621

Alison: That's right.

622

I always say that behind every post is

a person and the way you treat the post

623

is the way you are treating the person.

624

And so I, put thumbs up

and hearts on things.

625

It's so simple.

626

But even for those of us, like you and I,

who are experienced at doing this, and we

627

post all the time and we don't feel like

super vulnerable, but as soon as that

628

first ding comes through that someone

liked it, you're like, Oh, they liked it.

629

And so a hundred percent, it's

so easy to give that back.

630

And so, um, Dan Pink, who's a

brilliant writer, uh, you're right.

631

So, so Dan, so he was, I'm

in a book authors group.

632

He came and was talking.

633

Couple months back and one of

the things he said, which we

634

know is a psychological truth.

635

He said, stop thinking you're so unique.

636

If, if you're interested in

it, other people will be too.

637

If it hurts your feelings, it'll

probably hurt other people's feelings.

638

And so I think about that a lot.

639

Every time I have a moment where

someone does something and I think,

640

Oh wow, I really like them now.

641

I, as a psychologist, unpack it,

and I think, what did they just

642

do, and how can I replicate it?

643

So, one example is, a couple weeks ago,

my son, one of my, one of my kids, all

644

of them, but one of them was at a summer

camp, and he had had an injury, so I was

645

writing the camp director to make sure

his injury had healed enough that he

646

could go on this big backpacking trip.

647

And when they wrote back to say,

yes, it had, The camp director

648

said, by the way, your son has

been such a leader among his peers.

649

I have so enjoyed getting to know him.

650

He's just a tremendous asset to camp.

651

Like four sentences of

your son is awesome.

652

And I just pause for a moment and I'm

like, Oh, I really like this guy now.

653

I've never met him.

654

I know, I only know him by name, but I'm

like, Hmm, he complimented my kid, which

655

is even better than complimenting me.

656

And now I thought, you know what,

if an email came the next day that

657

the camp was doing fundraising.

658

I think I would have donated

more because of that email.

659

And so anytime something like that

happens where I have a positive reaction

660

to somebody or a negative reaction,

I pause and I unpack what it is.

661

And I think, Is that a, a, a tactic,

not an, an authentic tactic I could use.

662

Like, and I realized, yeah,

people love their kids.

663

And when, when someone's kid, you

know, I have a, a, a, there's a guy

664

who has done some work on my house

whose son is in the Olympics, right?

665

Or just finishing the Olympics.

666

Awesome.

667

You know, to take two minutes and

say, oh my God, I'm cheering you on.

668

This is amazing.

669

Like, you know, whatever it is.

670

I'm like, oh, I could use

that in an authentic way.

671

So that's what I would encourage.

672

Um.

673

people to do is like when you

get the good feeling of the

674

heart, oh, everyone gets that.

675

It's not just, I'm not, I'm not so unique.

676

And so if I, if that feels good for me

to get it, then that's my first clue

677

as to what kind of thing could I give.

678

Julie: Yeah.

679

And because you brought up your

kids, you, you have three children.

680

They're all named after

professional athletes.

681

What was the, it was there a

behavioral psychology behind

682

naming them after athletes?

683

Alison: There was not.

684

So, okay.

685

So my husband and I are big sports fans.

686

We, um, uh, were probably together.

687

Let me think about this.

688

We were together five years before

we got married and I think seven,

689

eight years before he had kids.

690

This conversation originated as

all child naming conversations do.

691

While we were drinking in a bar, we

were sitting there long before I was

692

even sure I was going to marry him.

693

So the conversation felt kind

of hypothetical and we were

694

talking about names for kids.

695

And I said, That all of the relatives

in my family that I like have horrible

696

names and the relatives that have decent

names I don't really like them that much.

697

I wouldn't name after them and he

was telling me the names in his

698

family I was like, nah, and I said,

oh something about athletes and

699

somehow Michael Jordan came up.

700

So my husband's from Chicago So

Jordan came up, and Jordan is

701

also a UNC obvious connection.

702

And I was like, I really

like the name Jordan.

703

And from this idea, we started

brainstorming and this bar, if we had

704

kids, what would be names of kids that

would have ties to his Chicago roots

705

that also were names that I liked.

706

And we came up with two of the three of

those kids names were decided, like five

707

to seven years before those kids existed.

708

So Jordan is my oldest and Peyton, my

son is my middle for Walter Payton.

709

And then I have a daughter named

Maddox, which is for Greg Maddox,

710

which we came up with later.

711

Um, and they also have Pittsburgh Steelers

middle names because I am from Pittsburgh.

712

And so I, um, wanted to do that.

713

My husband lobbied for a while

for Maddox, Maddie, we call her.

714

That her middle name to be Lemieux for

Mario Lemieux, which would be great.

715

And I said, I refuse to give a

girl a name that has two X's in it.

716

Like, I don't know if they teach

cursive anymore, but like, we have

717

to write the X in cursive, right?

718

No one needs that.

719

I was like, one X per

name, I think is plenty.

720

Anyway, um, So that's how we did it

721

Julie: That's so funny.

722

We don't have kids, but, there's

a little bit of a connection here.

723

Our dog, her name is Maddie.

724

She was nine weeks old and we

rescued her from Pennsylvania.

725

There was a beautiful breeder who

had taken her mother pregnant out

726

of a very bad situation and welled

to the mom and she had nine kids.

727

And.

728

So all of the dogs were

named after Steelers players.

729

And so we immediately changed

her name from Nick to Maddie.

730

We're like, this can't

happen, this can't stand.

731

So, yeah.

732

Alison: Yes.

733

But that is how we, yeah,

ended up with, with all of it.

734

And so, and here's the funny

part about that, um, is that when

735

we did that, we lived in North

Carolina with no expectation.

736

We would be back in Chicago,

but we do live in Chicago now.

737

I'm, and I have been remote before

remote was cool, but, um, when we

738

moved back and at the time, our dog

who has now died, but was living at

739

the time, Wrigley for Wrigley field.

740

And I said, now we look

like lunatics because now.

741

It's cute when you live in North

Carolina and you have kids named after

742

things in Chicago, but when you live

in Chicago and you're like, my kids

743

are Jordan, Peyton, and Maddox, and

I have a dog named Wrigley, it just

744

looks a little bit too much city love.

745

But I will tell you, my oldest

is 15, my youngest is nine.

746

In all those years, not one

person has ever put it together.

747

Not one.

748

Julie: My, I have a very good friend

who lives, she lives in Villa Park

749

now, but she was living in downtown

Chicago and her dog, who has since

750

passed away, was named Wrigley.

751

Alison: Yeah.

752

It's very common.

753

Wrigley's, Addison's,

there's a lot of them.

754

Julie: Yeah.

755

Um, friends.

756

Oh, Alison, thank you so much.

757

Likeable Badass, which is a playbook

for winning the status game is available

758

everywhere books are sold September 3rd,

759

Alison: That's right.

760

Julie: September 3rd.

761

So run out, get yourself a copy, buy it

for someone else, do that kind thing and

762

buy that copy for someone else because

five years from now, you'll be the same

763

person you are today, except for the

people you meet and the books you read.

764

Thank you so much for being here today.

765

Alison: Thank you.

766

I could talk to you forever.

767

You're amazing.

768

Julie: Oh, thanks.

769

Big shout out to Nicole Kaleel

for making this introduction.

770

I've said it before,

and I'll say it again.

771

The people you meet will change

your life and networking is

772

how you meet those people.

773

Having people in your network who

are not intimidated by your success,

774

who continue to make amazing

connections for you and say your

775

name and rooms full of opportunity.

776

That is the goal.

777

That is what I am trying to teach.

778

Every time I get on the stage

or behind this microphone.

779

I want to go back to something

Alison said in that interview.

780

So much of our ability to live

the life we want is working

781

with and through other people.

782

So.

783

If those people don't value us,

then all those things get harder

784

and life gets more miserable.

785

She also echoed something

I've said many times before.

786

You need to meet more people continuously

because the next person who's going

787

to build your status or the next

person who is going to help you out.

788

You never know where they could come from.

789

There were so many amazing things

that she said in this interview.

790

That we should be looking for ways to

say great things about other people.

791

Not just because they are true,

but because that good energy

792

will be reciprocated back to us.

793

And also to think about the three

characteristics you want to be known for.

794

And are you living a life in

which that is how people would

795

describe you if you weren't there?

796

For me the most significant takeaway

was the conversation about being

797

capable and caring and realizing

that humor is a cohesive act.

798

It can be what makes you a warm person?

799

Just a few days after this talk

with Alison, a friend of mine, who's

800

going through a really, really tough

time, came to visit for the day.

801

Chris.

802

And I spent the day with them at

the beach, digging for clams in the

803

morning and floating on inner tubes

with beers in hand in the afternoon.

804

And then later that day, making homemade

clam chowder from our hall that morning.

805

We laughed the entire day.

806

By the end of it.

807

He thanked us seeing it

was exactly what he needed.

808

See.

809

That's my kind of warmth.

810

The kind that makes you spit out your

beer, laughing, the guy that makes your

811

cheeks ache from smiling and the kind

that makes you feel truly cared for.

812

And I feel like I just discovered that

this week in this conversation, So

813

run out and get your copy of likable.

814

Bad-ass that hits

bookshelves on September 3rd.

815

All right friends.

816

Onto the drink of the week,

which is the queen and cocktail.

817

Why this one you ask?

818

Well, let me tell you, queen Anne, right?

819

She's a freaking queen of

England, Scotland and Ireland.

820

We're talking March 8th, 1702,

which by the way, fun fact later

821

becomes international women's day.

822

And my birthday coincidence, I think not.

823

Then in 1707, she's like, let me

smash England and Scotland together.

824

And bam she's queen of great Britain to.

825

What a total bad-ass.

826

And apparently legend has it.

827

This was her drink of choice.

828

I have no idea if this is actually

true, but Hey, it's a good story.

829

So let's roll with it.

830

Here's what you're going to need.

831

One and a half ounces of rye three-fourths

ounce of vermouth, three fourths,

832

ounce of pineapple juice and a dash

of bitters combine all ingredients

833

together in a cocktail shaker with ice,

and then strain and tour martini glass.

834

All right friends.

835

I hope you enjoyed this special

bonus episode of the podcast.

836

Be sure to check back in as I will be

offering more bonus episodes in the future

837

before I get to regular programming.

838

If you liked what you heard

today, please leave a review

839

and subscribe to the podcast.

840

Also, please remember to share the podcast

to help it reach a larger audience.

841

If you want more, Julie Brown that's me.

842

You can find my book.

843

This shit works on Amazon

or Barnes and noble.

844

And you can find me on

LinkedIn at Julie Brown BD.

845

You can follow me or you

can reach out and connect.

846

If you reach out and connect, just

let me know where you found me.

847

I'm Julie Brown underscore BD

on the Instagram, or you can

848

just pop on over to my website.

849

Julie Brown bd.com until

next time, whenever that is.

850

Cheers.