Why Our Obsession With Passion Is Causing Burnout with Terri Trespicio

Artwork for podcast Deeply Rested: Anti-Capitalist Conversations for Entrepreneurs

Episode 22 • 5th February 2025 • Deeply Rested: Anti-Capitalist Conversations for Entrepreneurs • Maegan Megginson

Meagan

Welcome back to the Deeply Rested Podcast. We live in a society obsessed with passion. I can't scroll through Instagram without being reminded that my life would be easier if I just followed my passions. There's this underlying belief that passion is the ultimate antidote to burnout. But is it really?

Today's guest is Terri Trespicio, and she thinks that our obsession with passion doesn't cure burnout, but causes it. Terri is an award winning writer, speaker, and brand advisor, and the author of Unfollow Your Passion, How to Create a Life That Matters to You. Her TEDx talk, Stop Searching for Your Passion, has nearly 8 million views.

In addition to talking about passion and burnout in this conversation, Terry also shares a wealth of wisdom about the rules, and specifically how many of the rules that we are unconsciously following are waiting to be rewritten. Everything Terry says inspires me, and I have no doubt that this conversation is going to leave you hungry for change and ready to take action in your life and business.

This conversation with Terry was originally recorded for our fundraising event, The Rest in Success Code, and I am totally excited to be sharing it with you again today here on the Deeply Rested Podcast. Buckle up, grab a pen, because you're probably going to want to take some notes, and enjoy this wonderful conversation with the one and only Terry Trespicio.

Maegan

Hello, Terri, welcome.

Terri

Thank you for having me.

Maegan

I am so happy that you're here. And I'm very excited to talk today about burnout. Now, I talk a lot about burnout. But it's usually with therapists and other people in the health and wellness space. And I am really excited to have you on the series this season. Because you also talk a lot about burnout, but from a totally different perspective. And when we are having conversations together on Voxer, or, you know, via email, you always say things with such a fresh take that I feel like people in the world I live in, need to hear some of your ideas and perspective about why we struggle with burnout, what we can do about it. So I'm I'm really happy that you're here. And I'm wondering, before we get started, if you want to say a little bit about who you are and where you come from.

Terri

That's a really good question. Well, I hail from Jersey, maybe that'll answer a lot of question.

Maegan

That answers 95% of my questions, haha.

Terri

Well, if you ask me every year what I do, I'll give you a different answer. So here's what I'll tell you this year. This year, I will tell you that I am, I have, I am a writer who has gone through many iterations of writing, I am recently the author of my first book Unfollow Your Passion: How To Create A Life That Matters To You. I am a professional speaker, and I lead workshops and programs that are designed to help people tap their creativity, which is not really a matter of give them a set of watercolors, but really helping them overcome the blocks that keep us from it to begin with. And I've made my living really for years as a brand consultant, which sounds like, the- how does that relate? It's all the same thing. It's trying to access who someone is, and hand it back to them in language they can use.

Maegan

Yeah, amazing. Your book Unfollow Your Passion, we're probably going to be pulling some gems from your ideas in that book today. And a conversation that we were having that kind of inspired me to invite you into the series is the idea that passion is not a cure for burnout. And when you said that it really it piqued a lot of interest for me because I feel like in my space with, you know, health and wellness and therapists, there's a lot of talk about how much passion is missing from our lives and how if we could just find our passion, we wouldn't hate our jobs, hate our businesses hate our lives quite so much anymore. So I want to hear from you, what are your thoughts about passion being this thing that can save us from burnout?

Terri

Well, that is, that has been my issue with passion from the beginning. Not passionate feeling which is part of the human condition, a real high point, we all want to experience it if we have the chance, of course. My problem from the beginning has been the weird cultural kind of pressure to find your passion and that your purpose in your life is to find that thing, and then you better do it, and you better make a good living doing it, and you better be ecstatic every day. It's it's a made up idea. And the problem is that I have long thought that the feelings around passion are there sort of fairy tale-ish. We think well, if we're just good and we work hard, passion will come riding up on it steed and sweep us off our feet, and then we'll live happily ever after never work a day in our lives.

And that fairy tale idea is particularly dangerous for women. Namely, because men aren't usually fed that idea that they're going to be swept up onto someone's steed. But for women, if you if a woman told you, I'm going to wait and some Prince Charming's gonna trot up, we'd be like, sisten, sister, we got some stuff to clear up for you about how the world works. But we do the same thing with passion, we assume it's going to come rescue us. And that's why we put too much pressure on it. But the reason this came up and why I was excited to talk to you about it was because I was recently invited to speak to at a women's symposium for women in tech. And the theme of their event was passion. And so when I met with them, they'd hired me. And then then we have a strategy call, right? Like, alright, what are we going to? What do you need most from this event? And they said, I go, well, how are things with your group? And they're like, oh, they're really burned out. And I was like, oh, cool. So now you're gonna make them feel like they have to find all this passion. I was like, alright, they're burned out. And like that's, but here's why we think that it's natural to say, gosh, they've burned out, they've lost their passion. So we should just pile on and find ways to give them more passion.

I get it because burnout is like the light going out. Nothing has meaning,we feel emotionally flat. Ba, ba, ba, ba. Passion is a flame. So we think, oh, it'll rekindle us. But it's not so linear. It's, it's not that one cures the other. In fact, in the article that I recently published, that I, that you feature into in a big way. You were so great in that piece is the research that turned up that people who are the most passionate about their work are more likely to get burned out in the first place. Isn't that ironic?

Maegan

It is ironic, and I love like the way you're painting this picture. That passion is really romanticized. And we're kind of yeah, we're sold this fantasy, that passion is this thing that's going to rescue us. And I think we take that narrative and then spin it to tell ourselves, I mean, we're kind of like gaslighting ourselves in many ways.

Terri

Ah, yes.

Maegan

Like, if you just figure out what you're passionate about, you won't hate your business so much. If you could just find passion in your work again, you, you'll feel inspired, you'll feel refreshed. So we- not only are we putting so much pressure on ourselves to discover our passion, which, like you said is it's kind of akin to, well, the sex therapist in me is going to just make an appearance here for a second. Yeah, like when someone is struggling with orgasm. So they go into sexual experiences, and they're like, I'm just gonna have an orgasm. Like, I'm just gonna do it.

Terri

Haha, that'll fix everything.

Maegan

It's like, it's similar, right? It's that, I'm gonna put this intense pressure on myself to like, I'm just gonna find my passion.

Terri

You know what, I've never heard anyone say it that way. But it's like...

Maegan

Well, you're welcome.

Terri

Oh, you should just have an orgasm more often. And it's like, that's not gonna fix it. But it's a really good point. Speaking of, this is a weird turn on the sexual analogy, but passion is not a prophylactic for the human condition, you know?

Maegan

Right. Yeah, yeah.

Terri

And P.S., we have to add this, that this pursuit of passionate all costs is also very privileged. People who are like, they, their whole thing is to just search for passion. It's like great, the rest of us are trying to like earn a living. Like it's not fair. It's not fair to assume that someone's life is worth passion, someone's isn't. So that right there is a very sub level of that, but it is sort of a weird thing that always has made me uncomfortable.

Maegan

I appreciate you naming that, that you know, even being able to sit in the conversation of finding your passion means you are sitting in a place of really...

Terri

Extreme privilege.

Maegan

Yes, extreme privilege.

Terri

Aw, I'm so sorry, you had a bad day. You didn't find your passion. Damn, so sorry. Were you able to like pay for your home?

Maegan

Pay your bills and eat your food? Yeah, like...

Terri

Exactly.

Maegan

Yes. So the other the other element that I want to name here is passion as the antidote to burnout and how I see in my work, it is so incredibly destructive. You know, if you are in burnout, especially as a business owner, you, you're basically you're living inside of a house that is crumbling in on itself, the foundation is cracked, you know, the roof is caved in, there's water pooling in the corners of your kitchen. And then when you're like, well, I just need to find what makes me feel passionate. What what you're doing is basically saying, I'm just going to start building on top of this structure that is already crumbling, I'm just going to add more on top of what isn't working.

Terri

Yes.

Maegan

And I think that it just perpetuates the cycle of burnout that we find ourselves in, and then we end up, still burnt out and judging ourselves, because what's wrong with us that we weren't able to find or connect to a deeper passion?

Terri

Right, passion becomes another to-do.

Maegan

Ugh.

Terri

And part of the problem is like, you dig deep, not even that deep. I mean, I didn't have to dig very deep into burnout literature to hear this, which is the passion might be the liability. Because the the idea, like the burnout is not just oh, there's too much work, oh, I'm just tired from work that's different. It's the idea that you are a bottomless reservoir of effort and work and that you are obligated to give beyond what's even possible. And so in some ways, it's caring too much about the outcome about what other people think, which leads to the burnout part. That's what I've learned. That's what I've understood from consulting, you know, incredibly brilliant people like Joan Borysenko, who is sort of the one of the biggest names studying stress and burnout and well being.

So if that's the case, then burnout may be at least due partly because we care too much. So why would deciding to have more passion and care more when you're out of caring? Because I think we can agree there. And this is from a non licensed therapist perspective is that burnout is, who's like, you don't care anymore, like you've gone beyond the bounds of being able to care for anything. And so the idea that, Oh, if I just cared more, it doesn't, it doesn't add up.

Maegan

Yeah, yeah. It's more building on top of what's already crumbling, right, just do more of the thing that's not working, that's not serving you. Okay, this is great. It's not going to work. So let's talk about what we need to do to dismantle this conditioning. Because there is everything that we're saying here, there's so much conditioning, there's patriarchal conditioning.

Terri

Oh, yes. Right.

Maegan

Yeah, right, as women as service providers that we're here to serve, that we're here to, like, live our passion by giving to others. There's capitalistic conditioning, that we're here to make more and more and more money. And if we're not making money, then you know, were no good, we're worthless. I mean, these are, these are all pieces of this really complex puzzle that that we're examining. And so if passion isn't the solution to get us out of burnout as business owners, let's talk about what we can do to dismantle all of the things that are keeping us trapped in this paradigm.

Terri

First, part of it has to be perspective in some way. Like, if all I know is if I don't do this work, or if I don't please this person, I'm gonna die. And I will die trying. That's the very urgent, right when you feel like oh, my god, I can't keep up. That's the smaller frame, right? That's the frame of your individual life. What about when we zoom out? When we zoom out to where did this even come from? And I mean, taking huge leaps back in time, like, okay. Like, not that we're going to go too deep into this, but like, I don't know, the industrial revolution, like the time when we're like, oh, I get it, scale, expand, right.

Maegan

Automation.

Terri

Use automation, you know, favor profit, scale, and expansion over humans and natural resources and health and everything else.

Maegan

Yeah.

Terri

And why? Because a few powerful people would make a lot of money that way. And you can't separate it from that. Because the people who have always earned and made money off other people's efforts are going to and must make you believe that it's for something very important.

Maegan

That's right.

Terri

When really, if we're being honest, most things aren't that important. But that's what that is.

Maegan

Most things don't matter. Yeah.

Terri

Yeah. Oh, good.

Maegan

Okay. I want to I want to talk more about that, but I want to take one more giant leap backwards to colonialism.

Terri

Oh yes, let's, shall we? A little jaunt.

Maegan

Yeah, just a little jaunt back to you know, colonizers coming in and taking over this land and bringing with them the Protestant work ethic.

Terri

Yes.

Maegan

Right. And I think like looking at both of these angles is really important. We have the Industrial Revolution, where we are brainwashed by people in power to believe that we are here to operate like machines, to produce and generate money for the people in power. And in this this other angle is the Protestant work ethic that there is this deep internalized spiritual and religious component that says, in order for your soul to be worthy...

Terri

Oh boy.

Maegan

...you must work hard, you must be productive, you must produce. And with both of these systems, I think we internalize without, you know, our conscious awareness ever being aware that it's happening, a set of rules that keep us really tied in to a way of operating that leads to burnout.

Terri

I see your Protestant work ethic, and I will raise you back 10,000 years.

Maegan

Oh no.

Terri

I mean, frankly, we're gonna go back, we're going deep. And, you know, I am not an anthropologist, but I have read some interesting things that shed light on this for me in ways I had never considered, which is the moment we stopped trusting nature to tell us what to do. And I learned this from a man named Mark Hawkins, who is just a brilliant guy, he wrote the book, The Power of Boredom, and he has another book out called The Mismatched Human. And here's what I learned. This is in a nutshell, between the time, the Paleolithic when we used to wander around, and there was excitement, and there was long periods of quiet and then you had to catch and eat what you're gonna eat that day, when we moved to the Neolithic era, when we started to literally and figuratively put down roots and start farming and planting things and then waiting for them to grow and hoping they don't get washed out. Our whole relationship to nature change. But here's why that matters. This apparently, according to Hawkins was when institutionalized religion began this is tens of thousands of years ago. Why? Because we needed to hang on to something, to what's going to happen? If I kill a deer and I eat it, I'm very grateful, like I am one with nature and all that. But if I have to now manipulate nature, and hope I can win. Now it feels like a zero sum game. So the point is, religion came out of a need to find meaning in things when we were now manipulating the landscape. Look, I'm not like regretting agriculture. It's not, it's beyond me to even do that.

Maegan

Right.

Terri

But that's when it started. So when you talk about like, a religion, it became when, it became something of how people used institutionalized religion to get work out of people by promising them, they'll be better later. They are earning up points in the afterlife or whatever. All of that kind of you suffer now, because someone benefits from that suffering.

Maegan

Oh, yeah.

Terri

And then later, everything will be wonderful. Right? I was raised Catholic. So I was told that you know, your whole life, that's what you're taught, not really Catholic anymore. But that's dangerous, isn't it? Because...

Maegan

That's so interesting.

Terri

We are only as as valuable as we are productive. And if we're not doing something, we aren't worth that much. That is where things get really rough.

Maegan

So rough.

Terri

Why do you and I feel guilty a little bit? Maybe you not so much as me because you've seemed to me to be someone like I look to you to be this master of let's understand our boundaries a bit. But you wouldn't do that if you hadn't been through it yourself.

Maegan

100%

Terri

I feel guilty to like, I sat down and watched an entire episode of The Unexplained about Bigfoot last night. And I loved it. And I thought, you are a dummy. And you have so much other stuff to do. But I was like, I didn't know the Sasquatch could be real, like I enjoyed that. And I, part of me was like, yikes. But why? Why do we have to torture and defend and argue every second?

Maegan

Yeah, we don't have to. I think the point here is that we do unconsciously and automatically. And and that is what we have to dismantle. Right? We have to dismantle the rules that we've internalized, that tell us all of these things are true, right, that we need to be endlessly productive, that our value is based on our productivity, that sitting and watching an episode about you know, Bigfoot is a waste of time. It means you're lazy. What are you doing with your life. There are undercurrents of internalized beliefs and rules that are keeping us trapped in patterns that perpetuate cycles of burnout. And I know you talk so much about the rules, and helping people understand how to identify what the rules are, and how they can also intentionally break the rules that are holding them back from creating a life full of meaning. So tell me more about that. What can we do with rules?

Terri

I wish we could just be like, yeah, like, just kind of like flip our, flip the bird to all the rules. But the fact is, I don't like rules in and of themselves are sort of the problem necessarily. Like the rules, and it's not like we shouldn't have any rules. Of course, we need rules. You know, rules are a kind of limit. There are all kinds of limits on us. Limits in time, lifespan, how many hours in a day, we have natural limits. Rules are limits. Rules are just made up. Laws and principles aren't made up, rules are made up. And so the problem is that we still rarely question them. We don't. We just assume what we learned was true. In fact, one of my favorite prompts to give to in a workshop is, what's one rule you never questioned? And give someone five minutes to write into that and their eyes bug out of their head? They're like, I had no idea, I still believe that. The problem with the rules is, as you said, it's automatic. And so we keep responding to it and reacting to it. Without even realizing it. Right. And the way...

Maegan

We have to pause, and before we can do any examining of the rules, we have to pause long enough to point the finger at what the rules are that we're operating under.

Terri

Yes.

Maegan

I think like, let's talk about that for a second. How, how can we slow down long enough to begin to understand the rules that aren't even in our conscious awareness?

Terri

Got to ask, when you go to, it's like, you know, like it interrupts the moment between you think something and you do something, or you think something and then assume something, right? You almost have to be a master ninja of jumping in and going, but wait why? And I love asking that question. When I'm talking to say, a friend and being like, why do we think that? The more we practice asking, then we will start to have the question be automatic, instead of the compliance.

The metaphor that I've found, in my mind, it's very useful, is the invisible fence for dogs. You know, like, we're the dog. And we're like, I have to, all free, I'm free. I live in a free culture, country, and I can do whatever I want. And I have all, I have the whole range of the place. Okay, then why don't you run over there? I don't know. I think you're not supposed to run over there. I have a bad memory of something bad happening when I ran over there. Like a dog, just why does the dog not run through the invisible fence? Because they have learned the hard way. Every rule that we're afraid of breaking, usually have learned the hard way why not to do that. But in terms of breaking rules, yes, I'm all about changing our relationship to certain rules, especially the ones that tell us to do things that are not good for us, or even humanly possible, like work 24/7.

But the other thing is, I don't think rule breaking is a power move. Like the idea of breaking the rules, because I am, when I found myself talking a lot about this, I was like, had to have a moment myself. I'm a total rule follower. I was an A student. I didn't drink until I was older. I didn't have sex till I was in my 20s. Like I did everything your way you're supposed to do it. And I was incredibly hindered as a result. So I don't advocate like, eff the rules just break the rules. I say, the power move is not that, because that's rebellion. Like, oh, I'm going to rebel against you and break your rule. I'd rather just be the writer of the rules. I want to decide. And, you know, one of those things, an example, personal example is that you're supposed to like get married, have kids. Like, I broke those rules, but I didn't do it to be rebellious. I didn't do that rule, which of course, it's not a rule rule. But it's pressure, like, why aren't you doing those things? I decided not to do those things because I knew this was better for me. I didn't do it to tell everyone else, bleh. You know what I mean? We have to be willing to do that, take that risk.

Maegan

I think this is really, really important. There is a time and place for rebellion, right? We need rebellion. But I find that a lot of people swing so far into rebellion, that they are just living in another kind of burnout.

Terri

That's right.

Maegan

Because their purpose on this planet is like I'm here to create social change. And everything in my life is about creating this social change. And then you're just operating by a new rule really, which is that you still can't take care of yourself, you still can't, you know, create a life that has, you know, meaning, meaning and balance for you. So I'm just imagining right now this pendulum, right? And like on one side is rebellion and on the other side is lifelong conditioning. And really where we want to see is somewhere in the middle, where sometimes we're in rebellion. You know, sometimes we need to like participate in dismantling the social systems that keep us all oppressed. But oftentimes, we need to live in this space where we are just writing our own rules. We are not living by someone's rules from the past. We are not dedicating our entire lives to rebellion. We are keeping balance in the middle by really examining what is it that I want the rule to be for me in my life, and how can I trust myself enough to make that rule true in my individual worlds?

Terri

I love that word. By the way, the idea is not rebellion, which is just one of the spectrum, but trust. And part of it is that I, I believe, we think that the worst possible consequence is the reality, is the truth. If I say, well, why don't you do this? Or why won't you? Because then da, da, da. And we just accept that as fact. Well, they'll hate me, or I'll get fired, or I'll lose this. Really, because all you have to do is look around and see what insanity people in power get away with, who everyone knows their business, and they get away with it. And I go, why am I worried about my tiny little discretion or whatever? The idea that the thing that will happen is a foregone conclusion is not true.

Maegan

Right.

Terri

And that is a relief when I realized I don't care what you do.

Maegan

Yeah.

Terri

Very few people care.

Maegan

They don't.

Terri

And that's a that's a gift. I don't need everyone in my business.

Maegan

I want to go back for a second and just reflect on some of the themes we're unpacking here, or really, not so much reflection, I think we need to operationalize a little bit like how, okay, how do we take this philosophical conversation and turn it into something actionable? And here's, here's what I think, in my work with clients, we always start by just getting to the point where we can mindfully name what is not working? And I think that is a place to start, right? Can you just name what isn't working? What doesn't feel good to you? What isn't where there is no ease for you? Where there is struggle for you? Where there is pain for you, where there is burnout for you? Can you can you name honestly, here's what isn't working? What feels bad? Name it, write it down.

And then I think what you're offering, that I love, is to ask, who made that rule? Know why, once we know what doesn't feel good? ask ourselves, well, why why doesn't it feel good? Why are we doing it the way that we're doing it, and who made the rule that said, that's the way it needs to be done. And I'm really passionate, uh-oh, there's passion. I'm really passionate about this topic for business owners, especially because of all of the people in the world. We have the most agency and autonomy, and how we live our lives.

Terri

Who's we?

Maegan

Business owners.

Terri

Oh, business owners. I was like women? Haha, I don't know.

Maegan

Haha, no business owners. Meaning like, we report to ourselves. Like we're the ones who make the rules for how we operate in our businesses, how we show up in our lives. And if anyone has the ability to create systemic change, to be happier, it's us, because there's no boss towering over us.

Terri

We're outside of the system.

Maegan

We're outside of the system. There's no board of directors who gets to say yea or nay to decisions that we make in our life. So we can do this, folks, I guess is my point. Like we are the ones who can do this. We can name what's not working, we can pause. We can ask ourselves, why are we doing what we're doing? Who made this rule? And then, like you're saying, we can choose to either rebel against the rule by breaking it. Or we can release that paradigm entirely and say, I don't actually have to break this rule. I don't have to do anything about this rule. I can just make a new rule. I can just write a rule that feels better for me.

Terri

I like the word policy.

Maegan

Okay. Say more about that every.

Terri

I mean, listen, it's very bureaucratic. I can't believe I'm going back to now corporate language, now that I'm not in that world. But what, I have to say, we can borrow some stuff from bigger machines, which they do to remove the emotional tinge. Or to remove, you know, there's a reason why bureaucratic language and a company is so maddening, because it's so neutral and passive. But like, we have a company policy, we don't do that. I have my own policies and that, I love that.

But those three questions by the way, my favorite- who says, who cares, and so what? Which is who's the authority? Who actually is invested in the in the outcome of that besides you? And what are the stakes? Our friend Amber Petty always says, better do it half ass than not at all. And she's taught me that like, this idea that we're supposed to be specially business owners, high achievers and double especially women, we have to get the A+, plus the extra credit, plus this. And the problem is when we do that, we go, almost kill ourselves to do it. We realized someone else who didn't put that much effort in did just fine. So are we allowed to just be kind of okay with taking it down like two notches might mean a lot of difference in the way we feel about our lives.

Maegan

That's a pretty big concept, isn't it, giving ourselves permission to just half ass it. And to let that'd be good enough, and to remind ourselves that nobody really cares.

Terri

What is striving for excellence, who has the excellence meter that says, you reached excellence. If you're waiting around for someone tell you, you're excellent all the time, you're gonna be real tired. Like, it's not like, I mean, this is funny coming from us, we both care a lot about what we do and how we present it, we have to talk ourselves off the ledge of caring too much just like everyone else does. As they say, forgive me, our male friends, but god grant me the confidence of a mediocre White male, like, we can just go like, Oh, man. Yeah, do it.

Maegan

I like, yeah, it is it isn't. It is something we can learn from them.

Terri

It can. We have a lot to learn, we have a lot to learn. Hey, White privilege, men figured out a way. That might not be the way you want to do it, or I want to do it. But like, why do I read some, some old self help books written by very rich White men? Because they did something to make the lives they wanted work for them. And companies like, right? We can't go I'm not listening to anyone who has money. Well those are people who learned how to use resources, I want to learn that. I'm just going to do it my way. And so are you.

Maegan

Yeah. And that's the real rebellion. Really.

Terri

Oh yes.

Maegan

It's, you know, there, again, there's a time and a place for an angry rebellion. You know, I'm putting my sword in the air, and we're running into battle. But most of the systemic change happens in a much quieter way. Right? And it happens when we rewrite the rules and start doing things differently. And I think this is a really great example of that. We can look around at people who seem to have it easier than we do, or seem to be succeeding with more ease than we are, and ask ourselves, what strategies can I take from them, and then apply them through my own lens, which hopefully is like an anti-racist, anti-oppressive lens.

Terri

Yes.

Maegan

So that we're doing what works, but we're doing it in ways that are less harmful, and are perpetuating fewer of these internalized rules that are keeping us stuck in things like burnout?

Terri

Well, there's not a lot of models for this.

Maegan

No, there really aren't.

Terri

So it is incumbent on us to be that model. So that someone who's learning to run their own business and happens to bump into Maegan Megginson and and wants to learn from her says, Oh, well I like how how she's doing it, I didn't know I could do that. I didn't know I could do that. With lack of someone to emulate, sometimes we will fall back onto what we thought you're supposed to do. Right?

Maegan

So true. And it's part of what is so dysfunctional about the online business space specifically, right? That it is kind of an echo chamber of there is one way to do things. And this is what it is, and those ways harm a lot of people. And if more people stopped to ask that question, to say, well, do I have to do it this way? Who said I have to do it this way? Can I do it another way? Yes, you can do it another way. We need you to do it another way.

Terri

Look at marketing, look at the whole world around marketing. Everyone's a savvy consumer now. And we all get turned off by pitches and being you know, fake intimacy and things that reek of sales stuff that we don't like, it doesn't mean sales is bad, doesn't mean marketing is bad. We've had bad models that did a big cash grab for stuff that made us uncomfortable. And that's why so many people who are business owners, when they find themselves in the position of oh, guess what, you now also have a full time sales and marketing job. They, you know, they pull back from it because it's scary, because we don't want to be that. But you don't have to be. You've talked a little bit about that, ethical marketing. There's a real movement toward, I should be able to make a good living, provide a wonderful service, rest, live my life, not feel bad about it, and also create urgency and relevance and excitement around what I'm offering without falsely pressuring people into buying something they don't need, which is that's really what makes us uncomfortable.

Maegan

Yeah.

Terri

And so there's a real call for us now to change the way we see marketing. I mean, we both run our businesses of course, I want people to sign up for stuff and and get on my list and do all those things, but not because I want to wrench power and money from them.

Maegan

I want to circle back to limits for a minute.

Terri

Oh yes.

Maegan

And you, we had a conversation recently that was so good. And I just want you to get on your soapbox about this for two minutes.

Terri

Be careful what you ask for.

Maegan

It's about the idea that we, especially women, are taught by the self help world that we are limitless, that we can have everything, that we can do everything, that you know our work on this planet is to reach our full potential and our full potential is infinite. And I want to know what you have to say to that.

Terri

As, as An author with a book that sits on the self development shelf, I am I feel even more that I must say this, which is- some of those books are wonderful, they've changed my life, they've changed lots of people's lives. But what we have to be very careful about is this slippery slope of personal development, or rather, capitalism, disguised as personal development, that assumes you can and must scale yourself as a human. And that if you're really good and really talented, then you should have no limits, you can do anything, and you can do everything. And if you don't, there's something wrong with you. You're not manifesting hard enough, you're not dreaming big enough. And I think this is a recipe for disaster because it's one thing to be mad at your boss, be mad at an industry and say they're making me do things. I don't want to do this, fine. But it's real tricky when you are being seduced into the idea by people who claim they want you to, to tap into your inner divinity or whatever.

The fact is, we may be souls having a human experience, we don't know what the hell happens. We are on a rock sailing through space, we have no idea how we got here. We don't know when we're leaving or how, or where we're going. So what we do know is, we got a limited amount of time, energy and attention. I can sit in this seat for 90 minutes, and then I'm out, I got to do something else. So this idea that somehow the better, more talented among us must be able to just do so much more and do everything is crazy. The people who have the best lives are people who make the best decisions for themselves. They're not the one...

Maegan

For themselves, just to emphasize that.

Terri

mind about this in the book,: 4000

Right? You know, Terri, one of my least favorite things about spending time with you is that my to be read list gets longer and longer every time.

You don't have the time. Do you do audible because I think you're gonna have to do some of these.

Maegan

I'm like, oh god, I'm talking to Terri today, I better get ready to head to the book store.

Speaker 2

You know what's funny? One of one of my biggest insecurities is that I have not read all the things that people are reading and talking about, and that I don't read enough. I have a real insecurity about it. And then I was like, but I do read some things. I hear myself saying, I read stuff, I must have. But like, I just think there's so many people have had so many wonderful thoughts. I can't cram them into my head fast enough.

Maegan

Well, and that is part of the capitalism conditioning right, of unlimited scale, unlimited growth limitlessness. That we can consume all of the amazing thoughts and ideas that are being generated in this lifetime. Oh, and also in all of the lifetimes that came before us too, we need to also consume all of that wisdom, as well? Like, that's, it's too it's too much.

Terri

Well Maegan, now it's time for us to admit that you and I are legit thinking of taking a speed reading class because we want to read fast.

Maegan

It's, there's so much, there's so much that I want to know. And, and I will say the same way you were watching Bigfoot documentaries last night.

Terri

Legit.

Maegan

I read way more shitty fiction than I do nonfiction, which...

Terri

Wait, explain shitty fiction.

Maegan

Oh, just you know, there's like, okay, this is okay. This is gonna, we're gonna keep this brief, Terri, because this could very quickly become a whole other conversation. You know, there's like the literary fiction at the top of the New York Times bestseller list, which is great. I love it. And then there is just like pure smutty fantasy romance that has typos in it, but it's just like consumable you know, you're just like, nom nom nom just like give it to me.

Terri

Yeah, but that's someone's art.

Maegan

It is someone's art, and I love it.

Terri

You bought it.

Maegan

I bought it, I buy a lot of it.

Terri

Listen Helene Hoover is at the top of that list. Her books are not like tough to read, you'll swallow them in a heartbeat. People want stuff they can read easily, and we have our guilty pleasures.

Maegan

We have our guilty pleasures, actually. It's just a pleasure. I've gotten rid of the guilt. I'm actually, I've made peace with it. And I've made peace with it, because I've rewritten the rule. So if we could just come back to rules...

Terri

We don't have to read important things.

Maegan

Right, that this, I think what we're talking about right now is is a great example of an internalized belief that turns into an insecurity. That then fuels decisions that we make that keep us in a cycle of unhappiness. And here is an example where we can slow down and really ask ourselves, well, who made the rule that I need to read more nonfiction? You know, who says, who cares? Is it the rule that I want for myself? And I think that, and I think we're, we're actually landing on something that feels really balanced to me. For, in my own experience, which is okay, well, there is a part of me that has granted myself permission, who has written a new rule that it is okay to read more fiction than nonfiction. And it's okay to read, you know, one literary fiction for every three random fantasy books on your shelf, that's okay, you get to do that, that makes you feel good. And there is also a very legitimate part of you that does want to consume more nonfiction, because there are so many people whose ideas you are hungry for.

Terri

But they're hard. They're harder to read.

Maegan

They're slow, it takes longer.

Terri

It takes more time. That's why we're gonna have to take a speed reading class.

Maegan

I'll take a speed reading class, but I'm not gonna I'm not going to take the speed reading class and then read a bunch of shit that people tell me I should read, but I know I actually have zero interest in reading. No, that's a way of getting really nuanced in the understanding of the rules.

Terri

But I have to say, I'm very insecure about a lot of those things. I have a lot of like intellectual insecurities. And and one of them is that if it's the end of the day, on a Sunday, and I didn't read the New York Times, like I first I don't understand people sit down and read a whole paper. It is immense. I don't understand people do that. I don't do that. But if I don't know what the hot stories are, like, the big story, I was gonna talk about Monday, I go to bed going. It's the exact same feeling I had in high school when it was Sunday night, and I hadn't done all of the homework. And I was like, oh my god, and I was like, why? I am a grown ass woman. No one said I had to read all of the Sunday paper. Some people really love to oh, I lay out and I just read the whole paper. I was like, I'm working on Sunday mornings. Like, I don't I would rather do that.

Maegan

And who cares if you do or don't?

Terri

I still have it is what I'm saying. I just want people to know this thing that like, it's not like I'm sort of oh evolved past that. I talked about it because I struggle with it too. Right. Still. Always will.

Maegan

I really appreciate you naming that. And I feel like we, we do the work. Like, I want my work to be my life and my life to be my work. Yes, that brings me joy. I want to erase the line, the division between there's work and there's life. I feel like that distinction is part of what keeps us in burnout, that we have to like do this like we have to go into our brains and like surgically separate the part of us that's creative and, and helping others and getting our ideas out there. And then the part of us that is making dinner and connecting with friends. I don't, I don't love that distinction. I want to bring them together.

Terri

Don't you think that's interesting, though, because people might think, oh, you're burned out because you didn't separate it.

Maegan

Yes. I, It's something that I think a lot about that. I haven't like really dialed in enough.

Terri

I feel like you I want you well, I want you to run with this and keep you keep talking about it because...

Maegan

I'm gonna, I'm gonna walk I'm gonna walk briskly if that's okay. I'm not a runner. But yeah.

Terri

Yes, I love this idea because we are the common denominator, our work, and our lives. Not that you want to do work all the time, but I am also leaving, like, I want to talk to you, I want to talk to other people late at night like, and we're whispering back and forth. It's not like well just during work hours, like that doesn't even make sense to me.

Maegan

Well, it, because this is something I've been thinking about lately. I'm like, where did this come from? Right this, this like work life balance. I need to, I need to quote stop working at five. Like, well, yeah, that's...

Terri

Factory life.

Maegan

Factory life. Exactly. That comes from working a nine to five working at a corporation where the work doesn't belong to you.

Terri

Right, that's it, you nailed it.

Maegan

Then it's helpful to be like, it's five o'clock. You aren't paying me anymore. This work isn't mine. I'm leaving it here. And you know what, totally valid choice to say, and I feel like this is the choice we have to make as business owners. If you feel that you have something that is coming from deep inside of you, that needs to be shared with the world, become a business owner. If you don't feel that way, like I think about my, my husband who retired from corporate life and now is my, I call him my house manager, like, he just takes care of me and helps me do what I want to do. But he is so clear that he doesn't have that. He doesn't have that aspiration, to share his ideas with the world. For him, for people like that, it makes sense to get a nine to five, it makes sense to go somewhere, work, support yourself, and then leave and have that distinction between work and life. But if you are a small business owner, and you are really connected to your mission, and to the work that you're doing in the world, yeah, I don't want there to be such a clear division between what is work and what is life. Like, I want them to come together.

Terri

And I think the reason is exactly what you said. And that's why we decide who we're talking to right now, when you own your business. It's not that that's license to work all the time and never rest. But when it's yours, you get to decide. That's why when I'm working on a Friday, and I'm perfectly happy, people are like, oh, you shouldn't work so much. Who says, who cares, and so what? I'm enjoying it, this feels meaningful to me. I know my limits and when I need to sleep. But when we, and this is why this is a secret. The secret is not passion. The secret is not happiness, the secret isn't even orgasms. The secret is, can I feel that I have agency in the world, that I'm making a meaningful contribution? And then I decide what my policies are with regard to who I do it for, when and how I do it. To me, that is the dream. And that is what I hope for people who choose to do this work.

Maegan

And I think the more that we do that, the less burned out we will feel because we are no longer operating under an arbitrary set of rules and guidelines.

Terri

That's right.

Maegan

I think we should just wrap it up right there.

Terri

I think we nailed it.

Maegan

I think we, think we did it. I think our hard work here is done. This was so rich, I can't wait to just even though I had this conversation, I can't wait to re-listen to it. And just to really, I don't know, just be delightfully surprised by what thoughts and ideas, jump out and take hold. But before we wrap up, I do have one extra little bonus question. Okay, Terri? question I've been asking every guest this season. So you are already familiar with this idea because I came into your community and did a workshop called Rethinking Revenue. So this question is about that, right? If we really own our agency, as business owners, and we really say, you know, I'm creating this business to support me and living my best life, which will look very different for each of us, then we can start thinking creatively about how we're paying ourselves in our business. And we can start really identifying that we get paid in way more than just money. Money is important. And it's a big part of what we are generating with our businesses. But we're also generating all of the other things that we need to live a really wealthy life. So I would love to know, what is one way your business pays you that doesn't have to do with cash in the bank?

Terri

That doesn't have to do with anything I buy with it?

Maegan

Yeah, no money.

Terri

No money at all?

Maegan

No money.

Terri

My business pays me in well, not just in rest, but I'm gonna say it naps. I am a veteran napper. I'm so good at it, and I look forward to it. I don't do it every single day, but let's just say a lot of days. And when I decide, and sometimes it's right in the middle of day, like 3:00, I'm like well, I'm gonna lie down for a minute or an hour. That is sometimes the deepest rest I've had, and I get up and I get up for now the last half of the day. And I think, god this feeling is so good. This taste of what rest is. I need to remember it and I need to do it. So naps, sleep and walks. I've added a new habit to where I get up and I go out for about 4, 4-5 mile walk in the morning. I never used to do that. And I used to work out hard and the more I get on the peloton. Now I you know, I go for a walk and I crave it now and I think how wonderful that I get to do this. So I think it's, can I be excited about the little things in my day? That's a gift, rather than hating everything all day.

Maegan

Thank you so much for sharing that wisdom. It is it's inspiring. And I'm inspired by you and I'm really grateful to have you here and just really enjoyed this conversation.

Terri

I am very grateful to find you and I hope you know I'm like never ever letting you go, just you've been great.

Maegan

I'm thrilled. Okay, thank you, Terri.

Terri

Thank you.

Maegan

If you made it all the way to the end of this podcast episode, I'm guessing you are just as enamored with Terri as I am, and I would love for you to learn more from her. You can check out Terri's free mini course called The Passion Trap at territrespicio.com/trap. That's territrespicio.com/trap.

You can find that link in the show notes. And before I go, I would love to remind you about the Deeply Rested newsletter. If you're not part of the newsletter, I would love for you to join me there. You can subscribe at deeplyrested. com slash newsletter. It is the best way to connect with me personally and stay up to date on all of the incredible things happening behind the scenes here at Deeply Rested.

Talk to you soon.

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