The new year is fast approaching and economic issues are at the forefront. Today’s program features small business owners and the challenges they may be meeting in the new year. Park National Bank has one hundred years in banking with over 96 locations across Ohio, Northern Kentucky, and the Carolinas.

We welcome Peggy Tidwell, who is the Vice President of Columbus Commercial Lending for Park National Bank.

When you have a customer attempting to create a business what are your “top tips” to get them on the right track?

What resources and programs have been developed by Park National for your business customers?

The owner wants to grow. What steps should they be taking?

What about resources in the community that are available to business owners?

Peggy also focuses on technology – both the tech utilized by Park National to provide services to customers, as well as the security issues that business owners must face in their daily work.

She also offers her thoughts on how (or if) age plays a role in business ownership. Just like succession, an owner needs to deal with their age, and the age of employees, in future planning.

Also, check out these two episodes. We reference debts and wills in this episode, and these would be great to go back to and check out.

We would love to hear from you.

Give us your feedback, or suggest a topic, by leaving us a voice message.

Email us at hello@lookingforwardourway.com.

Find us on Facebook.

Please review our podcast on Google!

And of course, everything can be found on our website, Looking Forward Our Way.

Recorded in Studio C at 511 Studios. A production of Circle270Media Podcast Consultants.

Copyright 2024 Carol Ventresca and Brett Johnson

First off, do it while you're still employed. Do it. Don't don't go turn in your resignation and then start a business and hoping prayer might someday succeed. No, no, no. Have some continuation plan. So do it while you're still employed. Half benefits, and then venture into business.

We are looking forward our way from studio C in the five one one studios. That's in the borough district just south of downtown Columbus, Ohio. This is Brett. With me is Carol.

Hello there, Brett. How are you doing?

Great.

Saffron wonderful. You know, we're a little excited today. We have a new guest to our program. Peggy Tidwell is the vice president of Columbus Commercial Lending for Park National Bank. Peggy, welcome to our podcast.

Thank you, Carol. Thank you, Brett.

That 23 is fast approaching and 2023.

I know we were talking about y two K a couple of weeks ago. That's been 22 years ago. Good.

And I think all our eyes are on economic issues. Today's program features small business owners and the challenge they may be meeting in the new year. Park National Bank has 100 years in banking with over 96 locations across Ohio, Northern Kentucky, and in the Carolinas. The bank also has 1700 associates, 10 billion in assets. Peggy, thank you for joining us and providing an overview on the services and programs available at Park National. But I do want to start with information on you, your background, and experience in small business banking. And so the audience does know who's she great.

Thank you both. Again. It's such a privilege to be here today with you and share information to help small businesses grow and succeed. So it's my honor to be here. Thank you for that.

Thank you.

My role at park, which is accumulation of 40 years banking experience with several banks over several states, but my role is to assist business owners to provide creative financing solutions for their business and their state needs. So I currently manage a $50 million portfolio for the bank with clients of all sizes and industry types. My bachelor's degree is from the Ohio State University and my bucks GOBUCKS Ohio. And my MBA is from Texas A and M University. And I have traveled extensively throughout the world. I think my husband and I have been to over 40 different countries.

Nice.

Yes. My husband is a preacher, so as a preacher's wife, I have a particular interest in working with religious institutions to finance their unique properties. And if you look all through the downtown here in Columbus, there are some beautiful properties, and as they say, they don't make them like that anymore. I've served on many boards, both nonprofits, and today I am on the Advisory Council for the College of Business at Fred Hardyman University in Tennessee. And I'm also chair of the board and Chair of the CEO Search Committee for Willow Brook Christian Communities in Delaware, Ohio.

Peggy, Brett and I have this ongoing issue that I tap my network crazily in bringing in guests. So Peggy came to us through another contact, actually, Brett's contact. However, Peggy and I go back because she used to be at another bank with a friend of mine. So it's a shared there's no way.

To get out of your network.

I know you could share.

There's no way.

And also, you'll notice his hat was from Miami. So we're sitting here going, go, Bucks. And he's just like, shaking his head no.

She added Texas, saying invoice.

I can't.

Even do that little thing. He's right there. GigaM so, listeners, this is always what we do is try to tap networks. That's the whole idea of our podcast, tap networks, tap resources for all of our listeners so often. You know, the other thing let me also add Park National. We purposefully put in a lot of information about the value that Park National is bringing into the community. When you're talking about 1700 associates and $10 billion of money on hand kind of thing and your $50 million portfolio, the banks in Ohio are strong. And even if you have not necessarily heard the name, if you're a small business owner, you need to go out and shop those banks and see what everybody can provide you.

You need to shop banks, but you also need to shop bankers. Yes, because there are plenty of great banks with someone that cannot communicate and represent you in the bank. Good. Their voice is not strong, and you have some great bankers, but if they're in a structure where the bank does not permit that voice to be heard, that also is an issue because they're not going to be as responsive to your needs as important. Time happens, and things need to happen within a timely framework. So you need to have both. You need to know banks and bankers.

To point out another step. How would one go about interviewing bankers? What would be top five questions or how to approach that?

You know, in my entire career, Brett, I've only had one person do that one company really interview me. And I was very impressed by that. For the life of me, I wish I could find where those questions are. I kept them. One day I'll come across, but they should ask, if there's a problem in my business, how would you address that? Are you going to be very quick to come to my aid or are you going to be very quick to show me the door? Because not every day is a great day in business. So you need to anticipate how those things may happen and what's the longevity of you with the bank. You don't want someone that is going to be changing seats every couple of years and you start telling your story over and over and over and over again to different people at the same bank. You want someone that's been vested with you. So whether it's you have a need that needs to elevate now to a higher loan committee or whether it's the OCC coming in or the loan review folks coming in, the banker can communicate very easily what your story is and what the issues are and how we've worked together to resolve that.

It really is partnership, and that's the way a business should view it, as a key partner in the relationship.

Excellent. Thank you. That's great. So often in my background in career counseling, we would tell folks, consider doing your own business. You've got a hobby, and it's working. Think about that. But having that idea and deciding it would be a great business venture, those are huge questions. So when you have a customer attempting to create a business, what are your top tips to get them on the right track? Just a business plan. What information should they have? What preparation is needed? And this keeps going. Back to do your homework.

Do your homework. Well, first and foremost, banks do not finance ideas. Historic, proven, cash flow repays loans and ideas do not have that. So first and foremost, so, yes, a business plan is imperative. But my tips would be, first off, do it while you're still employed. Do it. Don't go turn in your resignation and then start a business and hoping pray it might someday succeed. No, have some continuation plan. So do it while you're still employed, have benefits, and then venture into business. That's my first tip. And number two, do your research. And that research doesn't mean, you know, just driving by the place that you want to emulate. In one case, I financed recently a flight simulator here in Columbus, and I would encourage everyone to go see it. It is a gentleman that did two years worth of research two years before he started. There's nothing else like it in central Ohio. And he actually went out east and sat outside a similar type of facility hearing folks comments as they walked in and walked out. And he kept track of the number of people and converted that into revenue. So he had some basis for his projections.

But he did extensive research before coming to the bank, and he was able to with his wife. They came together. She has a full time job. So there was that income, and that business is doing extremely well. So do your research. Number three, I would say, is get help. You cannot do it by yourself. Small business owners tend to fall into the role of HR, human resources, insurance, the accounting role. They're picking out the weeds and the landscaping up front. They're doing all of those things when they're not really focused on the business. So you need help is number three. Businesses today is just much more complicated than it used to be. Everything in this world is more complicated. So without a plan, without that help, and last, without some clients lined up this, build it, and hope they'll come. Plan is not a good one. The example I would give there is most recently, there was a daycare, and she is expanding into a third location. Her waiting list goes throughout the rest of this year and into next year. So she came with that list very prepared when she came to the bank, rather than, I'm going to move to a new location and hopefully they'll see me as they drive by and sign up.

That was not the plan she gave. Established list of names, the dates they called, their deposits, all of that was provided to the bank. That's what gets you to the finish line right there. And then the last thing, there are two rules in banking. It always takes longer than you think and it always costs more than you think. So with that in mind, have your financing lined up and anticipate that it will take longer. If you think the business is going to open in May, it may be December, and that's not unusual, and you think the cost is going to be $100,000, it may end up being $400,000. So anticipate and plan for those unexpected.

Items, which goes back to your point of don't quit your job.

Don't quit your job. Don't quit your job.

Yeah. Well, your specialty is in commercial banking. Park national has to have some resources and programs that have been developed for your business customers. Can you talk about that?

Sure, absolutely. Well, at park, we are unique in that we treat every single business uniquely and we find the most creative solution that's best for the customer. So rather than try to fit a customer into some preestablished box, we creatively think and find us the best solution. So whether the loan request is less than $100,000 or it's several million dollars, each customer is treated identical. The underwriting process is the same. The approval process, the documentation process is all the same. Now, that being said, we do utilize many government programs that are available. And thank goodness we live in the state of Ohio. There are some really good ones here that are underutilized every year. And a good banker will not know that. Every single detail about every program and who can keep up with all of them, but you know who to ask and get that up to date current information. But park has a very personalized approach to working with our commercial customers. And that, I think, even showed during the PPP days. The paycheck protection program. The smallest loan that park did was $150.

Wow.

And the largest one was several million dollars, of course.

And a lot of the facilities didn't want to deal with those small loans.

$150. Yes.

Which made a big difference for that person.

Made a big difference. And we actively reached out to the mayor's office and really tried to help as many as we could through that process. So that's what I mean, there's no particular product as there tends to be on the residential side when you're dealing with financing your home. There are many products and services. There are, but they're not park unique.

So when you're looking at that process with a much smaller business opportunity, that process is a bigger burden than it is for a large company because they have more people to put into it. Is there some way that you and your colleagues help people through that process?

Absolutely. I do have a standard template that I send, I have a standard information request and I help them through that. As not everyone is a student accounting and finance, I get it, it's painful for me to fill out one of those forms too. But it is necessary to evaluate and we don't over finance a borrower. That's just as bad as under financing them. So we don't want to give them too much debt and put them in a predicament where they have a problem and underfunding they don't have enough funds to make payrolls problem. So it is getting that right amount and that's based on accurate information going in. Accurate information going in gives you a good result on the way out.

OK, so that goes sort of into my next question. You've got customers who have actually weathered the storm of the pandemic. They made it through the worst of times, but now what? They want to grow, they need more funding to do that growth, but they need to be able to provide that information. What information do they need to give you? But are there other resources that they need to require? And what I'm saying resources like do they need more legal work, do they need more financial like accounting assistance, that kind of thing? And how do we make deal with the changes that the Federal Reserve is passing along to everybody?

Well, the Federal Reserve, let me start there. Businesses have always risen and fallen. That's just the nature of business. Not, as I said earlier, not every day is a great day in business. Some days are home runs and other days are not. And we've been through these cycles before. So that goes back to again, having an experienced banker. If you've had one that hasn't been through the cycles, they can't give their borrowers that assurance that this too will pass. Now, what I think when rates were very low, 0% businesses were borrowing money and a lot of it, as said, maybe too much money. And times will tell as we get as rates rise and get to a more normal rates, which somewhere in the six s and seven s has traditionally been an average rate for a business to borrow. And I'll go on the record of saying if a business is not comfortable in that 6% range, they probably should not be borrowing money. Probably. As 6% is not outrageous, right? We've seen rates as high as in the it's been there. But that's just as unusual as a 0% rate environment that we're coming from.

Now. All of that said, businesses do well when they are consistent in their culture, when they're consistent with their people, when they're consistent with their strategies. Businesses that do not implement a clear strategy that they could communicate, those are the ones that kind of are all over the place and have trouble or have too many things going on. At the same time, those businesses tend to have trouble too. When you're clear and focused on what you do best, those are the businesses that will succeed. I'm going to venture off a little bit and address the question of growth. Growth is the number one reason businesses fail. Number one, and the traditional example is restaurants. One opens, does great. All of a sudden they have three. All of a sudden they have ten. And you see a sign on the door, they're gone. So it is managed, calculated risk that helps businesses grow and succeed. Growth in and of itself is not bad, but growth for the sake of growth, growth. If you think about growth, even growing one to 2%, you need more receivables, more customers, lengthening in their payments, more people, more equipment, more space, more of everything.

That all has a cost to it. So it's businesses really grow better as a stair step, where they can absorb a little, grow absorb a little, grow, absorb a little. That's calculated, strategic growth.

Columbus has traditionally been a place where businesses start a lot of restaurants. And how many of those restaurant chains have started here, grown tremendously and end up getting sold to a conglomerate in another state. The quality goes down, the stores start closing, and suddenly that franchise no longer exists.

That is typical. So again, growth is the number one use of cash in a business. So you see a business that is declining, their sales are declining, they typically are generating cash. If a business is growing, it's using a lot of cash, which drives the borrowing need, because that gap, they can't earn money quick enough to get to the next level.

Right. Peggy, I have one more question with that. Do you think that people are equating growth with major expansion because they see that as more positive, and if they're not expanding, then the business isn't really successful? I mean, is it a perception issue?

It could be. I mean, if Finance 101, Day One they teach us big is not always best. There are many successful small businesses. Many. But you could look at big businesses, some are doing well, some not so well. Same with businesses of all sizes and types. There's no one right size to be healthy, to be successful, to be profitable. It is in every single size and.

Type of business, you really have to pay attention to your clientele, their feedback in regards to that one location. If they're driving from a far away. Go, I wish you were in our neighborhood. And here on many of those clients, customers are saying that okay, maybe there's potential there. Do some research and figure it out. Versus saying, yeah, we need a store closer to home.

Yeah, it's like the daycare with a waiting list. That is what we're putting right there is what you need.

Yeah, exactly. What about other resources in the community that are available to business owners? Like we've mentioned in other episodes. The SBA State of Ohio, ohio Small Business Development Centers. Got to be more than that, I'm sure. Can you touch upon those?

Sure. There are several programs in the state of Ohio that are outstanding. There is the Collateral Enhancement Program and the Capital Access Program. Now, both of those have job creation and or retention requirements with them, which makes sense. You're using state funds, you want to create jobs in the state of Ohio. But there are many. So that's why we do not call our group the SBA Group. We call it the Government Lending Group because there are programs at the federal, the state, and even the local level. And you even get down into southeast Ohio. There's the Appalachian Capital Group. So there are many programs. We're just so fortunate in this state with the with a Capital Access Program. The state actually deposits a CD in the bank to help offset a collateral shortfall. Those go up to $350,000 for fixed assets and for working capital. Up to $250,000 is the cap on that? Very similar is the Collateral Enhancement Program. And that program goes up to half a million dollars and has a $50,000 per job requirement. And what the difference is, is that the state deposits a CD, but it goes into a big pool with all the other bank customers that are utilizing that program.

So if one of those customers should default, we have access to that pool. Unlike the Capital Access Program, where it is specifically tied to a specific loan, specific CD, specific loan versus a pool of dollars. Both are outstanding programs. The SBA Express program is a 50% guarantee, and the dollar amounts on that have recently fallen back down. During the pandemic, they were up to a million dollars, but they have recently come back down. So it is still a very easy program to do. Banks do that typically in house. But the thing about a bank, such as park, we are small enough and nimble enough that we can provide all these programs. And I know the person to call versus dialing the big dialing for a particular person that may not even be in my state and know my state's programs, that you kind of get lost in a big program in big banks. The State 166 program is also an outstanding program where you can put in 10%. It's fixed assets and equipment purchases. The bank finances 50% and the state finances 40% of it. Typically at a rate of a percentage of prime, and that's fixed at that rate.

So it is outstanding as well. So there are many, many programs, and I'd also say that we even have micro loans here in the state of Ohio. Those are loans up to $50,000, and they're offered through ECDI, which is Economic and Community Development Institute. So great resources here in the state of Ohio. And again, as I said earlier, many of them go underutilized.

Are there dollars for female owned businesses, too?

Yes, there are. And there is one program, and I'm going to get mixed up on which one it is. It's either capital access or the collateral enhancement program that we're nonprofits are eligible. There's one program in state of Ohio for nonprofits.

Interesting. Okay, so Peggy, let's shift a little bit here and talk about technology, both the tech utilized by Park National to provide services to customers as well as the issue of security using technology that business owners have to face every day. Can you give us some tips?

Sure. This actually just happened to me so I could talk about me and I'm one of the statistics over payment fraud today is check fraud. It is not online. It is check fraud. And as I said, my checks were just stolen. I put them in a mailbox, in an out parcel. I was on my way out of town, threw them in the mailbox, thinking they would get on all three of those checks I wrote. Checks typically are right once a year. I wrote all of them, put them in the mailbox, and they were all three stolen and cashed. They were cashed. So I came back and I checked my bank account, as you should be doing every day, as prevention tool, check it every single day and look for those unusual items. It never hit me because that check was cashed for the right dollar amount. It was all fine. I didn't catch it until one of the vendors called and said, I'm still waiting on the check. I'm like, Well, I paid it. And of course, it was one of my neighbors. That check was the neighborhood civic association check.

Oh, there you go.

So it ended up with me having to close an account that I had had since 1986 and open a new account, new checks, the whole thing. And interesting, I was at the banking office doing that, and the woman in front of me was doing the exact same thing for the exact same reason. So it happens at the business level, too, where checks get stolen. And just this week at the bank, we had a company that had checks stolen. They went to the Secretary of State's office and opened up a bogus company. They started one, then they came to the bank with their documentation and opened up a checking account in that bogus company name and deposited that check. And then you can guess those funds were wiped out. So that just happened this week. So the tools I would tell you to do is, number one, be diligent about monitoring your account. You are the steward of that account. So monitor it. Monitor it. And a mobile app that every bank would have today is a good way to do that. And that's available for both on the personal side as well as the business side.

There's the ACH Debit Block product that will help you guard against unauthorized ACH Debits into the business checking account. It will block it. You're allowing these ten people, but if eleven shows up, they're not allowed in. They're not on the approved list, don't have availability to your account. And I would use positive pay, which, what that is, is you send a list to the bank every day of the checks you've written. And as those checks come in, we match it up, we pay, we match it up, we pay. So if a check comes in that's not on that list and is set for payment, it gets blocked and returned.

I've never heard of that. Is that just for businesses?

Yes, for businesses. Okay. And it's been around for many years, but I think as fraud continues to grow, you'll see more and more businesses do it. Something unique to park, let me comment on that, is that we have a secure browser that a business loads up onto their computer as you are in the bank's secure browser, doing banking, every single item is encrypted automatically. So that is a phenomenal tool as well. And it's free to all of our business customers through online banking. I mentioned the mobile app and then lastly have a secure password. It sounds so simple and we hear it all the time, but at one point, I think I had counted, I was up to 140 passwords. I couldn't remember them anymore. I surrender. I did sign up for last pass and there's many others out there that are passwords managers. Use them, use them, come up if they suggest a password that makes zero sense, but it is very strong and secure. Use it. It is there for a reason. So I would strongly encourage that is something everyone can do today.

And don't put those passwords under the keyboard. Is that it?

Definitely not.

Gosh, what a novel idea.

Yeah, really? Really. Let's talk a little bit about succession planning for small businesses. Some thoughts, advice on how that can happen successfully.

It's never too early to start. As I mentioned in the introduction, I am chair of the CEO search committee for a very large nonprofit and we probably should have started in retrospect a few years ago, and here we are. So I've learned a lot about that myself here recently. But I do want to share that price. Waterhouse recently did a study of 1600 businesses that were family run businesses, and only 36% of those businesses surveyed made it to the second generation made it to generation two. So think of that. All of that hard work and business growth and those bad days, good days, all that effort. Only 36% make it to year two, and things only get worse from there. Only 19% of businesses make it to the third generation, and just a mere 7% make it to generation four. So planning and succession planning, not just for people, but from the CEO to the person that answers the phones. It's important to pass on culture and values. You don't want to keep starting over. You want that culture that you've developed of whatever it may be, answering the phone by the third ring or doing whatever the culture may be.

That has to be ingrained in the employees all the way up and down the line, side to side and all around. That is what you don't want to have ricocheting around. That culture is what you're preserving. Whether you want your employees to stay on when there's a change at the top, you want them to stay on, and they are the ones that drive the culture. So I've had many examples I can share with you. Recently, a longtime client of mine was playing tennis with his attorney and died on the tennis court. Oh, my gosh. How hard did that get on the tennis court years ago? And it still gives me nightmares. I had a 30 year old that had his own construction business. He had a couple Duplexes, and he was engaged to be married. His will, he was working on it, but he had not signed it. It was on his desk. And doggone it that weekend you can guess where I'm headed. He was racing and he didn't make the turn and went through the hay bales and the car turned over and he actually drowned in a drainage ditch. My phone blew up over that weekend, and Monday morning all of us had tears because that traumatic of an event to the business, his family, he was unprepared, and his soon to be bride, just devastating.

It took his parents over a year to unwind them. There's a little box on each personal financial statement form, and it's on every personal financial statement at any bank. Do you have a will? If customers don't, and I see that, I would strongly encourage for your family, get on legal zoom for all that matter, and get one before you go into debt. And some of this is significant debt, and people just do not realize, number.

One, they all think they're invincible. But the other thing too, is that we dealt with this question when we did a legal podcast. People think debt just disappears when the person dies, and that's not necessarily true.

No, it's not just debt, but also with a will. Do you want a probate judge determining where your assets are going to go, where your children are going to go? Do you want a probate. Judge doing that? No, I want to have that. Say, I do have a few examples here. It's really interesting. Michael Jackson in his will, even went so far as to name Diana Ross as his children's alternate guardian. If his mother could not do it, that is good planning. Frank Sinatra, in his will had an interesting clause, and what it said was he had been married four times. His estate was well over $100 million. Anyone that contested his will would automatically be disinherited. So, I mean, that was an interesting clause, but the most interesting one recently is Prince that died without a will. And the probate judge even gave permission, they found a vault in his house, and the probate judge gave permission for them to open that vault. And you know what was in it? They found over 200 unrecorded songs that he had written, and they were worth millions and millions of dollars. He did not have a will.

So think of a small business owner. Think of all of these examples. Some had will, some did not. But one of his brothers sold his rights to his songs before they found this vault with all these other songs. And so that estate today remains in litigation. So, I mean, he died in 2008, I believe, still today. So it's important to not just have a will, but look at it frequently.

It goes back to that notion of do your homework, be prepared, do your research, even when you're no longer here. If you want to have that plan, you gotta do it.

Your homework doesn't stop. Exactly. That's bad news to end up.

There's one other thing that, again, we have such great resources in Ohio, and I'm sitting here trying to remember, and I cannot remember the name of it. There is an organization that studies family owned businesses in Ohio.

Sure. Conway Center, Ohio. Dominican at Park National Bank is one of the sponsors of that organization. They have peer groups where you could meet with similar sized businesses or female owned business. Peer groups are marketing their succession planning. They are outstanding programs. And that is where you will come across bankers to interview or attorneys or accountants. There is help there. And we are all at the Conway Center, right?

Well, I have to say, and I don't want to use the family's name, but I was having a conversation with some friends, and I remember when their grandfather started the business. And so this gentleman that I'd gone to school with, he was third generation, and he was telling me how all of the children, him, his brother, his sister, how all the children have, they've divided the business up, and everybody's got a pot that they take care of. And my comment to him is, your grandfather would really be proud. It's important, and it's not a given that the next generation can do the business. They may not have that talent or that they want to and then what?

Right.

So, great. Good. Okay. So, Peggy, we're going to go in another little path here. How does age play in a role in business ownership? Just like succession, an owner needs to deal with their age, the age of their employees, and future plannings. Your thoughts over all of the years that you've been doing this small business banking stuff, age is irrelevant.

Okay.

What? You need to be prepared. One of my coworkers was just sharing with me on his way home last night. Just happened yesterday, a terrible accident, and the car flipped over and it landed within inches of his car. Inches. I was terrified that could happen to any one of us on our way home. And as a business owner, it just becomes a massive issue. So think of that when you leave employees, the insurance policies, the HR, I mean, all the things we've been talking about, just big question marks on all of that if there is not a plan.

Right?

The example I gave you of the gentleman that was engaged to be married, he was 30 years old. So it can happen to anyone at any time.

A lot of folks have said, though, too, that older adults are better business owners because they have more life experience, more business experience. Are you finding that? Because, needless to say, every young person coming along thinks they have the idea of the most wonderful idea possible, and everybody wants to start their own business, start their own nonprofit, whatever? Does that have any issue there?

Well, there's no doubt that with age comes experience. No doubt about it. But on the flip side, I have twin boys that are 29 years old and they have some great ideas, things that the word Internet was not even invented when I was in school.

Right.

That the way they think and do business is very different than the way that I was taught back in the days. I won't say, but back in the days. Sure.

Exactly.

So I think that passion, that creativity, that enthusiasm, the ideas and knowledge of today is just as valuable as the experience of many. It takes both.

Well, as we wrap this up, we always ask our guests, though you haven't done this already. Words of wisdom, maybe, synopsis what you talked about today or something maybe we haven't covered or something has popped into your mind for tips for 2023, for those potential business owners, current business owners that you want to make sugar sticks.

In their head in 2023. I would say be astute and look out for opportunities. Just because rates are rising does not mean that the economy is dead. It's just slowing a bit. That's okay. And that's very normal. So there's nothing unusual about that. But still, keep on and look for those opportunities out there. Do not be deterred by higher rates. It just means you need to be doing a little more homework. But that should not be a no off the bat. Don't let that deter you. Also, I commented about sales growth being the number one reason that businesses fail. It's methodical thought out. Sales growth is how businesses succeed. Sales growth just for the sake of sales growth is not okay. Bigger is not necessarily better. It's controlled, systematic growth that gets you to the finish line.

Right?

Yeah.

And I would think it would also be it's a gut check.

Yes.

Sleep on it.

Sleep on it. Research it.

Talk to some folks, talk to your mentor, even your network. So talk to your network about this. Don't move too fast on that.

Your network should include an attorney. Your network should include a banker and an accountant. And many times bankers get forgotten until the money issue comes up. They need something really quick. But think about bankers as being a good resource for business knowledge. We see businesses of all sizes and all types every single day and glad to share that knowledge on of what we're seeing and what we have seen that works and doesn't work. And we might be able to connect you with someone that may lead you to the next opportunity.

That's an important point when you're talking about that network and having a mentor realizing that you may have I always think I have a really good network, but it's inevitable I'm going to meet somebody who knows somebody, who knows somebody, who knows somebody. So that's valuable information. If you need to do your research, use your network as the start. Wonderful. Peggy, thank you so much. It's been nice to meet you. Nice to hear more about Park National and please thank all your colleagues and the CEO. Tell him, yes, you did a great job. We were talking about him, but we were going to give him a shoutout. Listeners, thank you for joining us and do not forget to check our show notes for contact information and resources on our website at lookingforward our way.com. We're looking forward to hearing your feedback on this in any of our podcast episodes. Peggy, thank you.

Thank you, carol, thank you, Brett.