In this episode, I’m joined by Tucker Boyle for a beautiful and honest conversation about faith journeys, faith crisis, and how to stay connected to the people we love when their beliefs begin to shift.

Tucker shares his own experience of moving through a difficult faith crisis while serving as a seminary teacher and church leader, and how that journey helped him understand faith, questions, nervous system regulation, and Jesus in a deeper way.

We talk about what often happens inside parents when a child shares doubts or steps away from the faith tradition they were raised in. Fear can rise quickly, and when our nervous system goes into fight, flight, or shutdown, it becomes much harder to respond with curiosity, compassion, and love.

Tucker offers such wise insight on how to create safety in these conversations, how to repair when we respond from fear, and why our relationship with our children does not have to be dependent on believing the same things.

We also talk about:

How faith can change and mature over time

Why questions are not a threat to God

What young adults often need when they share a faith struggle

How parents can regulate their own fear before responding

Why “at least stay close to Jesus” may not land the way we hope

How to build connection in new ways when religious intimacy changes

How Jesus can still be present in every stage of the journey

This conversation is tender, thoughtful, and full of hope. Whether you are navigating your own faith questions or loving someone who is, I think you’ll find comfort and guidance here.

Resources Mentioned

You can learn more about Tucker at:

Harmony Road Retreats: harmonyroadretreats.com

Tucker Boyle: tuckerboyle.com

CTA

If this episode helped you, I’d love for you to share it with a friend who may need a little more peace and hope in their relationships right now.

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today.

2

I'm having a conversation

with Tucker Boyle.

3

I went to one of his retreats about

faith journeys and faith crisis,

4

and I learned so much there and I

asked him to come and share his faith

5

journey and how he supports young

adults when they go through their own.

6

Faith transitions and journeys, and he

has so many good things to share with you.

7

So I'm really excited to

share this episode with you.

8

I also want to let you know

I'm doing a program called six

9

months to strong on May 6th.

10

I'm going to be six months away

from turning 60 years old, and

11

I've got some ideas about what

I wanna do in my health journey.

12

From May to November, and I want

to invite you to come with me.

13

If you want to improve

your physical health.

14

If you want to achieve any goal that

pertains to your health or emotional

15

wellbeing, I invite you to come

to a free call on May 6th, where

16

I'm gonna talk to you about that.

17

If you wanna know more about it, there's

a link in the podcast notes to link

18

you to my newsletter, and then you'll

get all the information about it.

19

So go there and then come to the call

on May 6th and you can learn all the

20

details on how you can join me in

this six months to strong program.

21

All right, let's go.

22

Hello and welcome to the podcast.

23

Today I'm talking to Tucker Boyle, I was

first introduced to Tucker by listening to

24

him on a Faith Matters podcast, and then

I attended one of his retreats all of us

25

are going through our own faith journey.

26

Mm-hmm.

27

And our kids are often going through

different faith journeys from ours.

28

And so I just thought Tucker could shed

some light on how to be supportive how

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to exercise your faith in, in allowing

people to have their agency and,

30

Being interested and being full of love

for people as they go through their

31

own journeys, and I just really wanted

to hear some of his insights on that.

32

So I'm so glad, Tucker, that you

would come and be with us today.

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Tucker: You bet.

34

So happy to be here.

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It was lovely to have you at

a retreat recently and I'm

36

happy we get to talk some more.

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Brooke: Yeah.

38

So why don't you just tell us a

little bit about yourself now And

39

the faith journey that you had, that

brought you to doing these retreats

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and, and what you're doing now?

41

Tucker: Yeah, you bet.

42

So, I grew up, faithful Latterday

Saint, a really devout, latter

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day saint family in Idaho.

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And, ended up serving a mission to Brazil.

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And that's kind of where,

where things came alive for me.

46

I loved teaching the gospel on my mission,

even though I had like a low level anxiety

47

that I wasn't good enough the whole time.

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But I had some great experiences

like teaching and I was

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like, oh, this is super fun.

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And it felt meaningful to, just spend

my time teaching people about Christ.

51

And so I came home and I was like, well.

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I found out you could do this

full time for a job, so I wanna

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be a seminary teacher, so I got

hired to be a seminary teacher.

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And was doing that for many years.

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And there was a certain point where

I came to this interesting spot

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where I was like, you know what?

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Everything I do is church.

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My job is church.

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My friends are church friends.

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My community is, everything

is just so church.

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I wonder if there's another

way to see the world.

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I knew there would be, but I

was like, I wonder if I could

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get an, an outside perspective.

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And so I did a PhD degree

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At an evangelical university.

66

It was an online degree, but it was my way

of getting like an outside perspective.

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And so as I went through this degree,

I was taking classes from, pastors and,

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evangelicals, and it was a ton of fun.

69

And at the end I felt like I should write

about Joseph Smith's leadership style.

70

It was a leadership degree.

71

And I was like, that's crazy.

72

At a, at an evangelical

university, they, they could like.

73

Burn me at the stake for writing about

that, and so I was nervous about it, so I

74

decided to go to the Provo Temple and pray

about it and told my wife, I don't know

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if I should do this or not, but I'll pray

about it and I'll, I'll figure this out.

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While I was in the temple, I just felt

a distinct impression that I should.

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Dive into that specific

topic for a dissertation.

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And so I did, I submitted the topic

and I got assigned a very intense

79

evangelical pastor to be my dissertation.

80

Supervisor and it terrified me.

81

And I was like, oh no, this

could be a long, long journey.

82

And I submitted my first chapter and

he gave it back to me with all kinds

83

of red marks on it, saying, no, no,

no, Tucker, you're looking at Joseph

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Smith's with rose colored glasses.

85

You need to tell me what

all his critics were saying.

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All his enemies were saying.

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Inside me.

88

I was like, wait, I can't do that.

89

You know, that's anti-Mormon stuff.

90

I, I've been told my whole

life, that's from the devil.

91

but I knew I had to move forward with

this degree in order to move forward with

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the degree I needed to do exactly that.

93

And, I trusted in that answer

that I got in the temple.

94

So I dove in and started studying primary

sources and as I did, so my Perfect

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world, black and white understanding

of like, we are the good guys and

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everybody else says the bad guys.

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They just need to join us.

98

That kind of disintegrated along the

way and I found myself in full on.

99

Faith crisis.

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Darkness.

101

Wondering what I believed

at all at the time.

102

I was his seminary principal and I was

in my bishop Rick of my ward, and it was

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just a really intense, difficult time.

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And I started to reach out to

try to find people that I could

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talk to and found out that people

didn't wanna talk about this stuff.

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Right.

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And so I felt very lonely and

decided, I guess I'm not talking

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to anybody really, and like

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Brooke: leaders, like

who were you trying to?

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Talk to,

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Tucker: well, I tested the

fences with a lot of people.

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I mean, I would, I would share

things tentatively like, oh,

113

there's more complexity here than

I realized in, in this situation.

114

And some people would just like, you

know, step, not literally physically step

115

back, but you could tell that they were

uncomfortable and they would just kind

116

of guide the conversation somewhere else.

117

And so I was just looking

for people I could talk to.

118

And after a few experiences.

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of feeling like those doors were

shut to me, I just decided, I guess

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I just gotta bear down and finish

this thing and not talk to anybody.

121

And as I bore down, it

got tougher and tougher.

122

And, and, lonelier.

123

And lonelier and my questions got

deeper and deeper and, By the time I

124

was done, I just felt like I was dying.

125

I would go to bed at night just feeling

a feeling of despair and doom and

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like everything was gonna fall apart.

127

Like my marriage family, I had

seen people's families fall apart

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from faith, differences and, and I

thought, no, I'm gotta lose my job.

129

Is it?

130

Can I keep my job?

131

You know, is that even honest for me to

teach if I'm having questions that don't

132

seem to be acceptable in this culture?

133

And, and just a lot of questions,

a lot of, emotional turbulence.

134

And, and toward the end of it, I

had some experiences where now my

135

questions were answered, but I felt

like I was able to find some peace.

136

I, I started meditating.

137

I had some moments of grace where I

felt like God was like, no, Tucker, I

138

asked you to do this and, and I've been

with you this whole time, even though

139

you couldn't feel me along the way.

140

So I had some really redeeming

experiences that helped me feel hope,

141

sticking around and, and bearing with

it, and, have been super grateful.

142

To find, some practices that help me

find inner peace, even when I don't have

143

answers, simple answers to my questions.

144

Like I mentioned, meditation.

145

I also have come to, to understand

that a lot of my faith crisis

146

as I felt like I was dying and

everything was falling apart, was.

147

A crisis of my nervous system.

148

I was in a fight or flight in a

freeze state, and I wasn't able to

149

feel love and connection and openness

with God or people that I felt

150

like believed differently than me.

151

I, I was stepping back and, and so

it was just a really challenging,

152

turbulent, upsetting time in my life.

153

And so I had to dig really, really

deep for peace, and that's how

154

I learned to, find peace through

meditation, through spending time

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in nature, through going on walks.

156

I eventually did find a few people that

I could talk to, and I would go on walks

157

with them and talk through my questions

and things, and they didn't have answers

158

either, but at least I had somebody to

talk to and get some of that pressure out.

159

And, eventually I came to a place

where I was like, oh, I, I learned some

160

practices, some skills so that I can.

161

build bridges with people that see

things very differently than me, that,

162

I can feel peace being in a meeting

where I feel like I'm the only one

163

that sees things the way I see them.

164

And, so I've continued to teach

and to find a lot of satisfaction

165

and happiness in teaching.

166

and I've also changed.

167

A lot.

168

I used to teach, Hey, this is the way

everything is, you know, just kind of

169

really plain and everybody line up.

170

This is how we need to be.

171

And now it's more like,

well, where's everybody at?

172

How are you feeling about this?

173

Do you have any questions?

174

And, and what's hard about this?

175

And let's talk about it and see

where do you see Christ in, in this?

176

And, and, it's opened up my mind

and my experiences a lot and.

177

It's just been a journey.

178

So I was trying to summarize that

really quick, Brooke, but I don't

179

think that was really quick.

180

But what, oh, it was beautiful.

181

What other questions do

you have to follow up?

182

Brooke: It was perfect.

183

So a couple things I'm curious to know.

184

how you found those resources?

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Like how did you learn

about the nervous system?

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Were you just reading books?

187

did you feel guided to that,

or to meditation, how did those

188

resources rise to the top for you?

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Tucker: Yeah.

190

I mean, in my hunger to find

peace, I became a voracious reader.

191

And yeah, I read book after

book, after book after book.

192

I read some that were

connected to our LDS tradition.

193

One pivotal one for me was.

194

Navigating Mormon Faith

Crisis by Thomas McConkey.

195

Thomas McConkey Uhhuh.

196

Yeah.

197

I read, you know, elder

Haen wrote a book called

198

Brooke: Faith Is Not Blind.

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Tucker: Faith Is Not Blind.

200

Yep.

201

And then I taught an institute

class by that title for a while,

202

and then I started venturing

outside of our tradition and I read.

203

Far and wide about faith crisis in,

across traditions and, and started

204

to realize that, wait, this isn't

just a uniquely LDS dynamic, this is

205

a human journey of development where

you might get to a stage where you

206

used to see things like in the Lego

movie, they say everything is awesome.

207

And then you get to a stage where

you're like, wow, everything is

208

not as awesome as I thought it was.

209

And it can be really,

unsettling, really difficult.

210

And I started to see, oh,

that's human development.

211

That's like part of natural growth.

212

And so that really helped

me to normalize things.

213

And then meditation.

214

Thomas McConkey was a good, connection

for me, but I've studied meditation

215

with a lot of different teachers and,

and books and things at this point.

216

And, just kind of had some breakthroughs

in meditation where I got to a place

217

where I felt like, oh, this is, this

feeling of just love flowing through

218

me and peace is what I've been missing.

219

And so.

220

That's been a, a big

piece for me in my life.

221

It, it's not the only way to find

peace, but it's been big for me.

222

Brooke: Yeah.

223

Tucker: So, yeah.

224

Brooke: I listened recently to the

Faith Matters podcast with Joseph Granny

225

and Jeff Strong, and they talk about

how the people who are the most devout

226

often have the worst time talking about.

227

A faith crisis with someone.

228

Absolutely.

229

'cause the stakes feel so high.

230

Mm-hmm.

231

Or we feel some responsibility either

to our children or as a stewardship

232

over someone in a church calling.

233

And so sometimes We aren't as open

and curious because we have an

234

agenda for how this should turn out.

235

So I'm curious to know, like how do

you create safe spaces for people

236

to come and talk to you, especially

when the stakes are higher, like with

237

your own kids or somebody in your,

in your YSA ward or something like

238

Tucker: that?

239

Yeah, yeah.

240

That's a great question.

241

And I'll just start by saying.

242

before my own faith crisis, I was

definitely one of those people that.

243

It was not safe to talk to about

faith crisis or Faith's journey.

244

I remember a family member coming to

me with questions about Joseph Smith

245

and things that they were reading

about him and church history, and they

246

were like, I have so many questions.

247

And I said, of course you do.

248

Don't you know that stuff comes

from the devil himself and ho?

249

And they were like, I

just shamed them right.

250

So, so sad.

251

Like I was doing the best

that I could to help them.

252

I didn't know any other way than to try to

like get them to put all that stuff down.

253

and then a few years later here I am,

reading the same things and having

254

the same reaction and experience and

realizing, oh, that's not what people

255

need when they're going through it.

256

what they need.

257

Is somebody who has compassion,

who validates their feelings.

258

You don't have to validate everything that

they're, claiming is not true or anything

259

like that, but just to sit with them,

validate their feelings, be with them.

260

And so as a YSA bishop, yeah, I got

called as a bishop after I finished my

261

degree, and I was still kind of like

reeling like, wow, where is solid ground?

262

Where do I stand?

263

And I had this feeling that I was going

to get, calling to be a YSA bishop.

264

And it happened.

265

And and I was like, holy cow, how am

I going to like lead, the ward, when

266

I am like still, in a liminal space,

just trying to figure things out.

267

And you asked how did I help

make it a safe space for others?

268

Well, around this time I learned that,

I, I was coming to learn more and

269

more that there are a lot of members

of the church that are in this space

270

of questioning, we might call it a

space of complexity or dissonance.

271

And I learned that one of the hardest

meetings for people is, fast and

272

testimony meeting, obviously because

people are asserting certainty,

273

and that's kind of the cultural

expectation in those meetings.

274

Tell us what you know.

275

And so me and my counselors

talked about it and we were

276

like, well, what if we create.

277

In this ward, a space where

anybody who walks through the door

278

can feel like they belong here.

279

How would we do that?

280

And so we in that ward, and I'm not

saying this is the way anybody else

281

should do it, but what we did is we got

up and we said, we've heard research

282

that shows that, fast and testimony

meaning can be difficult for people.

283

So if you're questioning, if you're

having a hard time, if you're not

284

feeling like you even know, what you

know as far as faith or spirituality

285

goes, we're so glad you're here.

286

We don't, we're not here to tell you.

287

That you're out of line

if you're questioning.

288

In fact, this whole church

started with questions, right?

289

And that's foundational to

deepening our own spiritual journey.

290

So feel free to come up and share with

us what, what are you working through?

291

how are you seeking to trust God even

while you're going through hard things?

292

What's challenging in your life right now?

293

And sometimes we connect better with

each other when we share challenges than

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we do when we share our certainties.

295

and so we would invite that type

of openness and it was pretty

296

extraordinary what would happen in

those meetings as people were like,

297

oh, it's really safe to share this.

298

And, people would open up and people

that didn't feel comfortable at

299

church usually would start to feel

like, oh, I actually belong here.

300

This is a space for me.

301

and so it was really fun.

302

I was really grateful that my counselors

were very, supportive and understanding

303

of that approach and encouraging of it.

304

And so we'd brainstorm together.

305

Sometimes for Sunday school,

we would do breakout sessions

306

where we're like, all right.

307

we're just gonna have different

rooms for different questions.

308

This room's gonna be around

questions about polygamy.

309

This one's about, you know,

racing the priesthood.

310

And this one's about, gender

roles in the and we also wanted

311

to make space for people that.

312

Weren't questioning and would

feel threatened by that.

313

So we would make, okay, this

room over here is about receiving

314

personal revelation or deepening

your, experience studying scripture.

315

So we tried to just create spaces

that would address the needs and

316

vulnerabilities of people in different

spaces along the spectrum of faith.

317

And that's how we, worked

with it through those years.

318

And it was a ton of fun.

319

Brooke: Oh, I think it's beautiful.

320

I am curious, when you got called to

be a bishop, did you express any of

321

that concern to your stake president?

322

Tucker: Oh yeah, totally.

323

And before I got called to a

bishop, there's like an exploratory

324

interview, you know, where

they didn't say what they were,

325

Interviewing us for, but I said, Hey,

just so you know, I've been through a

326

faith crisis and this is kind of where

I'm at and my, this has been my journey.

327

And, so yeah, that was on the table.

328

And I got called there anyway, they

said they felt like that was one of the

329

reasons to call me not to not call me.

330

Brooke: Right.

331

Tucker: And, you know, so

332

Brooke: I was And how do things

like that affect your faith

333

when things like that happen?

334

Tucker: Like being called as a bishop?

335

That shook my faith more than anything.

336

I'm just kidding.

337

you know, Brooke, this is

a really interesting thing.

338

I mean.

339

Any one of these things that we talk

about, we could talk for hours about,

340

but, the word faith changed for me.

341

like what faith even means

changed for me through my journey.

342

I think earlier on where I was,

the word faith meant, obedience.

343

It was the same as obedience.

344

Like I showed my faith by doing what,

I was taught to do and going through

345

a faith journey, my faith shifted

into like asking honest questions and

346

that was a manifestation of my faith.

347

Where before that, that was a

manifestation of a lack of faith,

348

Brooke: right?

349

Tucker: And so.

350

you know, Brian McLaren talks

about these stages of faith that

351

we go through of simplicity,

complexity, perplexity and harmony.

352

And I think in simplicity, questions

are pretty scary in complexity,

353

questions become pretty important.

354

And so my faith during a time

of complexity was, oh, I,

355

it's okay to ask questions.

356

In fact, questions make space for people.

357

Who aren't certain, and we need

to be able to see that that's,

358

that's common in our culture.

359

And then in perplexity, faith

becomes, Hmm, perplexity.

360

How do you define faith?

361

Perplexity, I would describe as a time

of deconstruction when you're actively

362

kind of like taking apart the things

that you've always accepted as true

363

and wondering if they're true anymore.

364

And in that space, your faith.

365

Is that truth can withstand really

close critical scrutiny, and that if

366

something can't withstand close scrutiny,

that we're okay to set it aside and

367

keep looking for something that can,

so a lot of people in, in perplexity

368

step away from church and religion

because they're seeing things that.

369

you know, maybe people aren't

comfortable talking about, and,

370

you know, questions are being maybe

sidestepped and things like that.

371

So faith there might look at

exactly the opposite to faith

372

in somebody in simplicity,

373

Brooke: right?

374

Tucker: Because they, they'd

like, no, that's doubt.

375

And yet a person in perplexity

is like, no, this is faith.

376

I am searching for truth.

377

Like so avidly.

378

And people in simplicity

might be like, no, no.

379

You're searching the wrong places.

380

You're doing it the wrong way.

381

And so it can cause real conflict

as many of your listeners

382

I'm sure have experienced.

383

And then faith, as we move into

this place called Harmony, which

384

is, after perplexity, perplexity has

to happen, the deconstruction has

385

to happen for the reconstruction of

harmony, faith looks more like trust.

386

Not necessarily in the arm of flesh,

but trust in a higher power that has

387

maybe even taken new shape and new form

through your journey, but a trust that.

388

All of these stages that we go through,

simplicity, complexity, perplexity

389

are part of a deepening journey for

us where we're becoming closer and

390

closer to truth, to God, to love, to

goodness, to wholeness as we learn to

391

trust the deconstruction pro process

and find what, can hold up to scrutiny.

392

Brooke: Yeah, When I asked you that, I

guess the thing that I was thinking of

393

is when we, when we lay it out on the

table and say, this is what I've been

394

through, and they're like, you're our guy.

395

It just makes me feel like that's not

threatening to God to have us struggle it.

396

It doesn't, it's not scary to him or

it's not something he, he can't handle.

397

Right.

398

And that, that.

399

He's willing to exercise his faith in

us and allow us to have opportunities

400

to keep growing and sharing what

we've learned with other people.

401

And,

402

Tucker: yeah.

403

Brooke: And that's absolutely

a beautiful thing, right?

404

That everybody doesn't

have to be a cookie cutter.

405

Like this is what a leader looks like.

406

Mm-hmm.

407

And this is how we have to think and

feel about everything in order to.

408

Shepherd other people and Absolutely,

and I think that's actually a real

409

gift to everyone to have leaders

who are looking at like, what

410

does true worship look like and,

411

and

412

Brooke: what does it look like to

not fully know, you know, we had

413

someone say in our testimony meeting

last month, that she's like, I.

414

Don't think I know anything.

415

Yeah.

416

I think I mostly just believe, and there

are lots of places in the scriptures

417

that tell us that believing is a really

good thing, and so I'm not gonna feel

418

ashamed of just believing I'm gonna

decide that believing is is okay and that

419

that God's pleased with me believing.

420

And anyway, so I, I liked that.

421

Tucker: Yeah, it's really beautiful.

422

And there may even be a time on.

423

Someone's journey.

424

Well, it, it's interesting as we

kind of move across these boundaries

425

between simplicity, complexity,

perplexity, harmony, that it often

426

might feel like we're losing God as

we move, move across those boundaries.

427

But, oftentimes, as you deepen in the

spiritual journey, you might find that

428

God is the one calling us into harmony.

429

And like, you know, I do a podcast called

The Call to Harmony, and we might even

430

feel like Jesus is the one calling us

into complexity and perplexity and into

431

seeing things that we didn't see before.

432

And, having new perspectives.

433

And that's a, that's a whole

upside down way of seeing it from

434

the way that I used to see it.

435

And so it's a really interesting thing.

436

Like you say, understand that God

isn't threatened, in fact, that

437

God might even be inviting, this

deepening of spirituality and leaning

438

into questions and things like that.

439

Brooke: So I had a podcast

with my daughter last fall.

440

I asked all my kids if we could

have conversations because

441

one of my goals is to help.

442

Parents have better

conversations with their kids.

443

And so I asked her what she wanted

to talk about and she said, I think

444

we should talk about the church.

445

That seems to be the thing that

ruffles people's feathers the most.

446

And so she shared her faith journey on

the podcast, and one of the things that

447

she shared was, as I started sharing

my questions with you and dad, the

448

first thing I felt from you was fear.

449

Tucker: Hmm.

450

Brooke: and she said, I don't know

if you are fearful that I'll ruin

451

my life, or if you're fearful that

I'll destroy our, our eternal family.

452

I'm not sure what your fear was stemming

from, but, but that's what I felt.

453

And as we worked through like it's.

454

We are much better at love now, but

in the beginning that was our initial

455

response, and I think that's probably

the initial response of many parents.

456

when your kids tell you something that

you weren't expecting, or maybe you even

457

have been expecting it, but you've never

had a formal conversation and so, so

458

we're having our first experience of you

telling me these are the things that.

459

I don't love or I don't believe anymore.

460

Like, how would you help

someone not be fearful?

461

Tucker: Yeah.

462

That's such a big question.

463

It's such a hard thing.

464

You know, I've been on both

sides of that multiple times,

465

like I've said in the past.

466

first you, you talked about the

nervous system earlier and maybe.

467

I'll frame it this way first,

understanding what we are going

468

through when something like that

happens can be super helpful.

469

And so, for example, if a, a kid,

one of my kids comes to me and

470

says, dad, I'm moving into this.

471

belief space.

472

I'm leaving, you know, the religion or

I'm leaving this, or I'm, I'm going a

473

different direction than, I'm sensing

you and mom have wanted me to go.

474

What will happen inside of the parent

usually is we'll go into fight or flight.

475

and let me just summarize, a simplified

way to say three main stages that our

476

nervous system might be in would be the,

the base state of calm connectedness,

477

could be an open connected state.

478

And then there's fight or flight

above that when we get activated,

479

and that's where we're feeling

fear, anxiety, anger, rage.

480

And then there's, a level above

that that we might call shut down.

481

Or freeze where, you feel

numbness and depression and,

482

overwhelmed and hopelessness.

483

And so as we step back and, and

investigate like what is happening inside

484

my body, when a child says something

like that to me, that fight or flight

485

reflex is trying to protect the parent.

486

And trying to protect the child, and it's

there as a survival mechanism and nobody's

487

doing anything wrong If you have that

reaction, you are a healthy human being

488

that, it doesn't mean you're not loving.

489

You're not good, you're not

kind, you're not a good parent.

490

It probably means that you really

want the best for your child.

491

And what your child has just

said is outside the bounds of

492

what has been acceptable in

your mind or safe in your mind.

493

And so your nervous system kicks up

and is like ringing the alarm bells.

494

And when those alarms are going

off or when we are in the state

495

of alarm, we actually don't have

access to compassion to love.

496

To, kindness and generosity because our

nervous system shuts down the receptive

497

mode and we turn into a survival

mode where it's like, oh, we gotta

498

get through this, this tough moment.

499

We don't know how to navigate it.

500

And so.

501

First of all by sharing that to

know that that's what happens to us.

502

I think the first person to have

compassion for is yourself, right?

503

If you're in fight or flight mode,

that's a really hard place to be.

504

Nobody likes that feeling.

505

And so if you can give yourself

some grace and understand that,

506

that's a tough place to be.

507

And if you've been in that in the past

with a child in a conversation, just be

508

like, okay, I went into fight or flight.

509

That means I'm a normal human.

510

I mean, Jesus experienced fight or flight,

we see that through his ministry, right?

511

that doesn't mean we're sinning or

we're doing something wrong, but what

512

we usually do, we're in, when we're in

fight or flight, that's when we maybe

513

cause some damage to each other, right?

514

because we speak from a place of fear.

515

Or we speak from a place of anger but

the reason why we're doing it, if we can

516

look underneath it, it's because we're

human and we're activated and we're

517

trying to like turn off these alarm

bells that are going off inside of us.

518

And our normal way of doing

that is by trying to fix

519

something outside of ourselves.

520

That's just how we've been conditioned.

521

Oh, I don't feel good right now.

522

I've gotta change my outer circumstances.

523

When a child says something like

that, I've gotta change my child.

524

I've gotta convince him to stay

in the fold or to stay in, the

525

way that we expected this to go.

526

And that just as everybody knows this

listening, that usually doesn't go well.

527

Brooke: Right?

528

Tucker: what do we all want when

we share with somebody, some.

529

You know, place where we feel led

to go that's outside of the norm,

530

we want them to say, oh, wow.

531

I, I know you're a wonderful person

and I trust you, and you must have

532

thought long and hard about this.

533

this is taking me by surprise.

534

And obviously I, I can actually feel a

little bit of emotion coming up in, in me.

535

So, if you'll give me a, a minute to

process this, tell me more about this.

536

How, how did you come to this decision?

537

And while they're telling you

more, just watch your own.

538

Nervous system, you can do some things

to regulate, deepen your breathing.

539

lengthen the exhale.

540

When you're breathing, you can

kind of feel yourself in your body.

541

You might even practice this while

I'm saying this right now, you can

542

kind of notice the room around you.

543

And what that does is it downregulates

the nervous system so you can come back

544

into that open connected state where you

do have access to compassion and love,

545

kindness, generosity, understanding.

546

And, I'll just say it's pretty rare that

we have enough self-awareness to like,

547

catch ourselves in fight or flight.

548

We usually just react and then

look back later and regret.

549

Right, right.

550

Like I was teaching today in seminary,

Moses, I throwing the tablets down after

551

he comes down the, down the mountain.

552

Right.

553

We we're all human.

554

Moses as well, right?

555

Like, and we get into these states where

we're like, oh, maybe I shouldn't have.

556

Broken all those, you

know, but we just do that.

557

And so grace for ourselves,

grace for others.

558

And if you didn't do it right

the first time, you can always go

559

back to a child and be like, oh, I

understand now why I reacted that way.

560

I was in a state of fight or flight and

I was really trying to protect you, but

561

what I did wasn't, wasn't effective.

562

And, and I'm so sorry.

563

Can we try again?

564

I really want to, you know, put our

relationship as the priority here, right?

565

So.

566

There's some thoughts.

567

Brooke: Uh, another thing that she has

told me on another occasion is it's

568

a common thing for moms and dads to

say, well, if you're not gonna stay

569

in the church, just don't leave Jesus.

570

or keep believing in God.

571

and she has said to me, that

actually isn't very helpful.

572

'cause it feels sort of like, okay.

573

And if I don't like, is that where

we cut you off kind of thing?

574

right.

575

And so she has shared that with me

and I thought it was interesting

576

'cause I remember saying that to

her and thinking, well, that's an

577

open-hearted thing to say, right?

578

Yeah.

579

Like it feels like, oh,

well, I'm saying, yeah, okay.

580

If you don't treasure this thing,

that's so important to me, at least.

581

Please, Consider staying close to Jesus.

582

And so there's a wrong thing to

say and maybe you can explain

583

why you might think that's wrong.

584

And also what are some, you did share

some things a minute ago, like I

585

know you're a smart person, I know

that you're a thoughtful person.

586

Mm-hmm.

587

I know you wouldn't take

this lightly, you know?

588

Yeah.

589

And the fact that you're wanting

to tell me about it tells me that.

590

you've considered how it might affect me,

and that you want to engage with me about

591

something that's really been important to

both of us, like that is quite meaningful.

592

That mm-hmm.

593

Your child would even

approach you with it.

594

Tucker: Yeah.

595

Brooke: And I think those are good things

to say, but I'd love to hear what else.

596

Tucker: Right, and I'll just

step back for a second and say.

597

I really believe that what you say is

less important than where you say it from.

598

And what I mean by where you say

it from, are you coming from a

599

place of love and compassion or are

you coming from a place of fear?

600

You could say that same thing, like,

maybe say something kind of clumsy

601

and awkward, but coming out of.

602

A place of compassion and it

could land very different than

603

saying the same thing fearfully.

604

Mm-hmm.

605

we, humans we're amazing at

picking up on where somebody is

606

coming from, not just their words.

607

But are they trying to control us?

608

Are they trying to shape us?

609

Are they trying to warn us?

610

Are they trying?

611

All of those things express kind of a lack

of trust in my own ability to find my way,

612

Brooke: right?

613

Tucker: And so when somebody says

like that example, don't leave

614

Jesus or Don't leave God, it's

expressing like a few things maybe.

615

a lack of trust.

616

It also might be expressing that, you, we

might lose our relationship if you cross

617

that line like you pointed to earlier.

618

I think some of the most important things

to say, or this, I'll give an example.

619

A friend of mine, we had, been

talking through things like this.

620

And one Sunday dinner, they had a

family member announce that they

621

were leaving the church and because

he had had some conversations, he

622

was kind of ready for this moment.

623

Brooke: Mm-hmm.

624

Tucker: So he went over to

this family member and he

625

said, I just want you to know.

626

It doesn't matter to me what

you believe if you're in or out

627

or it doesn't matter at all.

628

Our relationship is more

important than, than whether we

629

believe the same things or not.

630

And I will always love you

no matter what you believe.

631

And that family member paused a little

shocked and said after hearing that,

632

like that's the first time I've ever

felt like I could actually stay.

633

Is because I felt like all

of my other relationships

634

were contingent on my belief.

635

And now you saying that our relationship

is not contingent on my belief.

636

Like I like that made them

feel safer for a moment.

637

What?

638

speaking of safety, the person

that's also on the faith journey,

639

they have a nervous system too.

640

When they share something, the nervous

system is always asking two questions

641

below the level of consciousness.

642

Am I safe and am I lovable?

643

And if anything that

happens on the outside.

644

An if the answer is no, we'll

go into a state of activation.

645

Brooke: Mm-hmm.

646

Tucker: so if some, if somebody shares,

okay, I'm leaving, or something like

647

that, and a person responds, and it

makes them feel unsafe, oh, I'm not safe.

648

Unless I believe in Jesus, I'm not safe.

649

Unless I believe in God, I'm

not safe in this family anymore

650

because I've shifted in my, then

their nervous system will kick up.

651

They'll feel the fear, anger, perhaps

rage, unsafety the fight or flight.

652

They'll probably want

to distance themselves.

653

That's what fight or flight does.

654

Flight part distances themselves or

fight, which is like, no, I'm gonna

655

convince you that I'm right and you're

wrong, so that I feel safe again.

656

Or they could even freeze.

657

And just go distant and just shut off.

658

And those are all normal human responses.

659

They're not sinful, they're not wrong.

660

That's just how their nervous

system may try to protect them.

661

If the answer is, I'm unsafe and I'm

not lovable to this person anymore.

662

And so if we can be aware of that,

be aware of that, those questions in

663

our own nervous system and in their

nervous system, that can help us come

664

from a place of like asserting safety.

665

This relationship is solid.

666

It's not going anywhere.

667

You can even say that.

668

You know, I've never

navigated this space before.

669

but I'm committed to be

there for you no matter what.

670

And I love you no matter what.

671

I think that's.

672

That's so soothing to a nervous

system of somebody that's just

673

looking longing for safety.

674

'cause many people really dread

that conversation when they

675

bring up, Hey, I'm leaving.

676

they've probably been thinking

about it for a very long time

677

before they get to that point.

678

Right.

679

And playing it out in their mind

many times before they even try.

680

Brooke: I had a really close friend that

I was her visiting teacher many years

681

ago, and she invited me over and said,

my husband and I are leaving the church.

682

We're having our names

removed from the records.

683

We just read the Book of Mormon one

final time and we just didn't really

684

feel anything and we feel like.

685

We don't focus enough on Jesus.

686

It seems like there's a lot

more on stuff like prophets and

687

temples and things like that.

688

And anyway, so they were leaving

the church, so she just wanted

689

me to know, I don't need you to

come visiting teaching anymore.

690

Tucker: Mm-hmm.

691

Brooke: And I said, if I don't

get to be your visiting teacher,

692

I'll never see you anymore.

693

We don't live on the same street.

694

I Right.

695

So I'm like, I don't have to

give you a message, but please

696

just let me keep visiting you.

697

Like I love you.

698

Tucker: Yeah.

699

Brooke: you are so dear to me.

700

I don't want to lose this friendship.

701

They just barely moved.

702

But they've lived here for many, many

years now, and we have had so many

703

conversations about how grateful we

are for our friendship because she

704

has continued to be very respectful of

my beliefs and I've also watched her

705

join other faith communities and do

so many other good things in the world

706

From where she is serving and, loving,

and, and she and her husband just have

707

incredible faith I'm really grateful.

708

Because she has told me, like

some of our neighbors, just

709

never talked to them again.

710

I said, it's 'cause we're afraid.

711

Right.

712

Everyone's just afraid.

713

Yeah.

714

Afraid that they've offended

you or that you hate the church

715

And so we create these stories in

our heads that then cause us to

716

retreat because we're not sure how

the other fish flight feels about us.

717

Right?

718

Tucker: Yep.

719

Yep.

720

We're we're, and that's our nervous

system, trying to defend us from danger.

721

Because like I said, the nervous

system is always asking, am I safe?

722

Brooke: Right?

723

Tucker: And when people step back

from people who leave, it's not

724

because they're bad people or they're

mean, it's because their nervous

725

system is saying, I'm not safe.

726

Yeah.

727

And so they step back and,

there's a lot of guilt.

728

O oftentimes when we step back we're

like, I don't know what to say to

729

this neighbor, or something like that.

730

And just learning, that we're human.

731

We have nervous systems.

732

If we can learn to regulate our

own nervous systems, Brooke, we

733

can have all kinds of conversations

with all kinds of people.

734

and.

735

Rather than being captive

to our nervous systems.

736

Brooke: Yeah, I think that's a really

important distinction that our nervous

737

systems are trying to keep us from

danger, but they're not really good at

738

recognizing what is truly dangerous.

739

Yeah, absolutely.

740

And it.

741

Our nervous systems think

everything's dangerous.

742

Yeah.

743

Right.

744

And so we have to regulate ourselves

so that we can go, oh, actually when

745

I use my prefrontal cortex this, this

neighbor of mine isn't dangerous at all.

746

Tucker: Yeah,

747

Brooke: right.

748

She's that same loving, beautiful person

that she was two days ago and a week ago.

749

Mm-hmm.

750

Right.

751

And our children like.

752

They've been good from the

minute they arrived, right?

753

Yeah.

754

And they're, they're whole.

755

And they are kind and they're generous

and they're, they're such good human

756

beings, and I think we're really good at

seeing that in the young woman who left

757

or seeing that in that missionary that I

taught, but sometimes with our own kids.

758

Because we feel like we've invested

so much and sacrificed so much, and we

759

know that they know, and we know that

they've had spiritual experiences that

760

somehow we're so tied to their success

that we have a hard time separating

761

it and just seeing their goodness.

762

Tucker: Yeah.

763

Brooke: Instead Maybe the dedication

we had or the sacrifice that sometimes

764

it feels like a betrayal, I guess,

of all the efforts that we made that

765

they're choosing to, to leave behind.

766

And I think that's really hard for people.

767

Tucker: It is really, really hard.

768

Yeah.

769

We have our ideas of how things are

gonna look in the future, and when

770

somebody shares something that is

going to change how that looks, that

771

is, that's a shock to the system.

772

Brooke: But I think just like you

can rebuild your faith or reconstruct

773

your relationship with with God or

with the church, that you can also

774

reconstruct what your relationship

with your kids is gonna be like.

775

Tucker: Absolutely.

776

You

777

Brooke: know that it doesn't have to be

so rigid that it has to be this certain

778

way in order for it to be successful or

in order for us to be happy or in order

779

for us to have an emotional connection.

780

Do you have any ideas on the

reconstruction phase of that?

781

Tucker: Well, yeah.

782

I mean.

783

In our LDS culture there, I mean,

it's a pretty devout culture, right?

784

We, we talk church all the time.

785

When you get together in the

LDS culture, like when does

786

church not come up in some way?

787

Even just a mention of.

788

BYU or you know, some often

scouts or something like that,

789

Brooke: right?

790

Tucker: Can bring, can trigger somebody

that, that has left and trying to

791

come back and it just feels, their

nervous system just feels bombarded

792

oftentimes when they leave this culture.

793

and so learning to kind of move into that,

oh, how do we build around something else?

794

It will take a lot of mindfulness.

795

From people on both sides of that divide.

796

but there are a lot of types of

intimacy that we have with each

797

other, if I can use that word.

798

There's, you know, religious intimacy

because we know, we believe the same

799

things, but there's also emotional

intimacy because, you know, we've shared

800

vulnerable things with each other.

801

There's recreational intimacy.

802

If you're not finding a religious

intimacy as I listed these, you might.

803

Think, oh, I can find this

other type of intimacy.

804

You can have recreational intimacy,

you know, play together, have fun,

805

disconnected from religious things, right?

806

And you can build intimacy around that.

807

There's like work or project intimacy

where you like work on things together.

808

You serve together.

809

You, you build and create together.

810

Creative intimacy is another type.

811

There's so many types of ways

to like bond with others.

812

The default way for us in our LDS culture

might be religious intimacy, from shared

813

beliefs, but there are many other types.

814

And you will like learn and grow

as a person and expand as you learn

815

to connect and new and different

ways, with people who've you've

816

lost that religious intimacy with.

817

But it's not over.

818

It's, it's a beginning of

something new and beautiful.

819

Right.

820

Brooke: I have one more question

821

How has your relationship

with Jesus Christ changed

822

because of your faith crisis?

823

Tucker: What a beautiful question.

824

Well, a beautiful part of my

journey is that Jesus has come

825

along for the ride with me.

826

that's not to say that

I haven't questioned.

827

Jesus and the stories of

Jesus and things like that.

828

But as I moved from my really rigid

mindset into kind of seeing more

829

questions and things, I remember

going through a time where I was

830

like, oh, I actually see people now

around me that I didn't see before.

831

So maybe somebody in L-G-B-T-Q

space or somebody that's.

832

you know, struggling in a different

way in the church that I used to see as

833

other and as distant, and maybe even I

regret to say this, as less faithful.

834

I, those people started to like come to

life for me and I felt drawn to them.

835

And as I felt that draw to go be

with them, I would look back at the

836

scriptures and be like, oh my goodness.

837

That's what Jesus was doing.

838

He was going to the outcast in the

society, those that weren't accepted,

839

those that were being hurt and harmed

by the, strictness of the society.

840

And I started to read Jesus's

words differently and I

841

was like, oh my goodness.

842

That's what he's trying to

model is when you do move into

843

these later stages of spiritual

maturity, like he obviously was in.

844

lift up the hands, which hang down.

845

That's in doctrine covenants,

strengthen the feeble knees.

846

and I started to hear some of the

things that he said, like, those

847

who lose their life shall find it.

848

And I started to Hang on to those words

because like I said earlier, I felt like I

849

was, I might lose my marriage, my kids, my

friends, my community, my job, everything.

850

And I started to deepen in

my understanding of what

851

Jesus was pointing to.

852

Oh, he means.

853

Like the deconstruction of my life and

even my own ego, even my persona and, and

854

this person that I've built to navigate

the world that's giving birth to something

855

more beautiful and more powerful,

more, more tied to God underneath it.

856

And so faith crisis then became

about spiritual rebirth to me.

857

And so Jesus has been A mentor and a

guide and a teacher all through this.

858

And, just lifesaving for me.

859

and so my relationship with Jesus,

I feel like I've always had one.

860

And this is the beauty of Jesus.

861

I, I loved Jesus as a kid.

862

I loved Jesus as a missionary.

863

I loved Jesus when I was very religious.

864

I kind of saw him as very

strict and obedient Jesus.

865

But then as I moved to new places, I

saw him as, oh, he's, he, he wasn't.

866

Preaching strictness.

867

He was like turning to the Pharisees

and saying, Hey, watch out on just

868

being obedient on the outside.

869

Look at the inside.

870

And I was like, oh, that's

what he's teaching me to do.

871

So all along the way, as I've like

continued to kind of pull off these

872

different layers, as they've kind

of shed during my spiritual journey.

873

Jesus takes on a new look

and has new wisdom for me.

874

And, so Jesus has, just

become such a vital, a vital

875

foundation for me in my life.

876

I just feel so much gratitude that there

was somebody that, lived in the Earth

877

2000 years ago that navigated a really.

878

A difficult, path.

879

To show us that we can navigate

our own difficult past.

880

I'll even say this, like when I

was a bishop sitting on the stand

881

sometimes, and there would be like a

difficult cultural dynamic going on.

882

I would often think back

to Jesus in the synagogue.

883

Like, oh yeah, you know,

what it feels like to see the

884

dynamics of what's going on.

885

And it would just make me smile

and I'd be like, yeah, Jesus.

886

We're all in this together, aren't we?

887

We're all figuring this out

together, and you're right with us.

888

Brooke: So good.

889

All right.

890

I'm curious to know how people can, can

reach you if they wanted to get more, like

891

they're gonna love this and they're gonna

say, how do I get to know Tucker better?

892

So tell them a little bit about that,

and then if you have any parting advice.

893

Tucker: Sure.

894

So I do Harmony Road Retreats, which

is a little nonprofit that I started

895

up to help people that are navigating

faith crisis, faith transition.

896

We don't try to get people to stay

in the church or leave the church.

897

We just try to help people find inner

peace and learn to regulate their

898

nervous systems through these changes.

899

And so that you can go to

harmony road retreats.com.

900

There's a website there.

901

We do retreats, uh, often.

902

you can go to tucker boyle.com,

903

connect with me.

904

I do coaching to help people through

these transitions because they're not

905

quick, they're not easy, and it does take,

time, to work through things like this.

906

so yeah, reach out to me

at either of those places

907

So maybe I'll share my conviction that.

908

Jesus is available wherever you're looking

from and wherever you're looking at.

909

And if Jesus right now is, doesn't

feel safe because Jesus, you know,

910

hasn't come along for the ride to

where you are, that's okay too.

911

But Jesus has a heart big

enough to even bring anybody in.

912

And, so yeah, it's been a beautiful

journey with Jesus along the way for me.

913

Brooke: Thank you so much.

914

I have just felt so honored to be

in this conversation with you and,

915

and I thank you for your courage

to share what you've been through.

916

I think sometimes people

feel like if I share this,

917

I'll be rejected by the tribe

or, you know what I mean?

918

Yeah.

919

Like, it, it could be dangerous

to, to share these things.

920

Very.

921

And so I'm grateful that, that

you've had some good experiences.

922

I know you've had some hard ones as well.

923

Tucker: Mm-hmm.

924

Brooke: but I, I honor the journey

that you've been on, and my goal is to.

925

Be really honest and

transparent in my own struggles.

926

You know, I, I think it's good for

your kids to know that things are

927

hard for you and, and you don't

always know the answers to everything.

928

and a lot of times we're sitting in the

complexity of two different things and.

929

So I think the more we can have

honest conversations with each other,

930

the deeper our connections can be,

931

So thank you.

932

Tucker: Thank you, Brooke.

933

So wonderful to be with you.

934

I.

935

Speaker: Thank you for joining

me today on Midlife with Brooke.

936

If this episode sparked something in

you, an aha moment, a little peace,

937

or even a little discomfort, lean in.

938

That is where change begins.

939

And remember, your worth is always intact.

940

The inner work is about accepting your

worth today and intentionally growing

941

into who God is calling you to be.

942

If this episode spoke to you, share

it with a friend or drop me a message.

943

I would love to hear

what you're working on.

944

Talk to you soon.