Colonel Jason “TOGA” Trew is on a mission to help airmen reintegrate intuition, creativity, storytelling, and play into strategic thinking. A Colonel in the US, Airforce, he began his career as a fighter pilot in the where he picked up the nickname ‘TOGA’. He flew in both operational and training squadrons before falling in love with teaching and transitioning to academics. 

He is Commandant and Dean of the School of Advanced Air and Space Studies, a Lego Serious Play Facilitator and an Iron Man Triathalon Coach.

In this episode, we explore the role between play and power, how even being in the military work can be a case of enlightened muddling through and how the best use of play can often be where it doesn’t feel quite right. 

Things to consider

• Where does that childlike creativity go missing and when?
• Play as a tool to help solve military conflict
• When is it the right and wrong time to use play?
• Can we just assume that play works?
• How Design Thinking and Playfulness connect
• Strategies for the real world

Links

• Connect with Jason on LinkedIn
• Primal Connect
• Play
• The Icarus Solution
• Article, Playful Splinters
• Do You Show up at Work as Your Full Freaky Self?
• Designfulness (Part I): What if Design Thinking isn’t ultimately about Designing?
• Playing with Splinters, or Three Thoughts on Play that are Driving Me Mad2021 SA Innovation Summit - Rescuing Icarus
• Review of The Infinite Game 
• Extended Mind 
• Group Genius

Get in touch!

Make Work Play

Playfilled

Hello, welcome to Why Play Works, the podcast

that speaks to people radically reshaping the idea of work as play.

We're so excited to be launching series two, so welcome back, lovely

listeners, and thank you for joining us.

I'm Lucy Taylor from the Make Work Play Project, an organization on a

mission to use the power of play to unlock potential and possibility.

And I'm Zuki Stewart from Playfield, A startup helping

organizations to enable everyone to rediscover their creativity through

playful wonder and serendipity.

We've got some really exciting guests for you this season from Catherine Price.

Author of The Power of Fun, which Oprah Winfrey described

as a shortcut to boosting your joy through to Allison James.

A playful academic leading a play revolution in higher education.

Today I'll be interviewing the brilliant Colonel Jason Toga,

true, a colonel in the US Air Force who helps airmen, reintegrate

intuition, creativity, storytelling, and play into strategic thinking.

Beginning his career as a fight pilot in the US Air Force in 1999,

where he picked up the name toga.

He flew in both operational and training squadrons before falling in love with

teaching and transitioning to academics.

He has a PhD in the history of technology and researches

the interactions between strategy, play, creativity, storytelling, and innovation.

In his role as a military educator, he led the design team to create concepts

to educate members of the new US Space Force and commanded the Premier

Leadership School in the Department of Defense Squadron Officer School.

He now sits as Commandon and Dean of the School of Advanced Air and

Space Studies at the Air University in Alabama, where he teaches strategy to the

creme de la creme of the UFS Air Force.

He is a Lego Serious Play facilitator, has studied with the

likes of the Stanford D School and I D O U and as an Iron Man triathlon coach.

To top it all off, he's a senior pilot with over 1200 flying hours

in fighter and trainer aircraft.

In this episode, we explore the relationship between play and power.

How even being in the military, it can be a case of enlightened, muddling through,

and how the best use of play can often be where it doesn't feel quite right to play.

Welcome to the show.

How

are you doing?

I am wonderful.

Thank you for having me.

I feel honored by the invitation and really, you know, like I feel

like I need to be some sort of like successful entrepreneur and write

a few books and have a viral TED talk before I'm at the, you know,

the same level as your other guest.

So this is super exciting.

Well, I

wouldn't be so sure about that.

So when I, when I, um, read your LinkedIn profile, the first time I came

across you, I was like, oh my goodness, who is this guy I have to talk to?

Because you describe yourself as helping airon, reintegrate,

intuition, creativity, storytelling, and play into strategic thinking.

And I was like, oh my gosh, that sounds amazing.

Like, can you tell us a little bit about that?

Like what does that mean in the context of the Air Force

in general?

I, I have to say that, that, yes, it's inspiring.

It's, at least it's inspiring to me and it's aspirational, right?

It's, it's what I strive to do.

Uh, I would say most of what I've come across in my adult life has been inspired.

Mistakes and deficiencies and short term problem solving.

There's definitely not any special wisdom or grand plan, uh, that

I've had, so I stumbled onto this.

I think a lot of what is good in life, we sort of stumble upon.

Uh, I was training for the triathlon race season and had gotten planner fasciitis

that led me to a wonderful little book by Mark Sissen called Primal Connect.

There was a footnote in that book to Dr.

Stewart Brown's book on play, which I then read and followed his footnotes and just

realized there's this entire, whole field of study about play that I, I didn't know.

And, you know, simultaneously in my academic world, uh, at the time I was a

student in the same school that I'm back.

Now as the, as the DNA commandant.

And it's this year long, very intense study about strategy.

Uh, essentially you're reading a book a day, you're writing a

thesis, and I was writing on the value of storytelling for strategic

thinking and story as cognitive play.

And so play shows up there as well.

But what really struck me was, was this, when I was reading

journals on play, actually felt like I was reading about strategy.

Yeah, it was kinda.

Yeah, it was really interesting that you could almost take quotes

and, uh, substitute play for strategy or, or, or vice versa.

Um, and then, and then that was starting to happen as I was entering my PhD,

which is the history of technology, and really took a deep dive into

the role of play and innovation.

Uh, which for me was the story of the metaphor was rescuing ICARs, right?

We need both the pragmatic dataless and the playful.

and the course of that research, I kept coming across the same thing, right?

Strategy, you know, uh, play, uh, and design.

Uh, I will say I didn't really get into design or design thinking until

after I graduated my PhD program and I went to Squadron Officer School.

Uh, about one third of our curriculum was about design.

And again, I, I think I was drawn to it because it was so counter

to how I normally approach life.

You know, these ideas of creative confidence and rapid prototyping.

empathy and a very playful method and mindset.

They were so foreign to me, uh, but useful and, and, and absent

really from the work environment.

And so I, I feel like I'm sort of on a mission, uh, as described

in, you know, that aspirational statement on LinkedIn, right?

To try to help airmen so that the people in the Air Force, whether they're

civilian enlisted or officers, uh, do those things right, respect the intuition

that they're creative individuals, uh, and the world that we live in.

Playful world, the world of flight, and uh, and strategic

thinking to put it all towards a

purpose.

Well, I mean, there's so much in there that I find fascinating and

like you said something you said, you know, that as you entered this world

of design thinking, you were like, wow, this is completely different.

and you've used, um, you know, in that description that I felt so drawn

to how you've described your work.

You talk about this reintegration, like where do you think, you

know, we all begin life playful.

We love stories.

As children, we are like totally tuned into our creativity.

Like where does that.

go missing?

Like why is there a need to reintegrate?

What do you think

happens?

The short answer I think is that because we get better and we get more

powerful, so we don't need to play.

Hmm.

And so I'll, if I could unpack that for just a bit, go for it.

Uh, play is a lot of things, right.

Play it, it's a lot of things to a lot of different people, but

I am most intrigued by how play.

Is an approach to a world that's complex and confusing, and when we don't have

a predetermined answer or the power to force our will onto a situation, in

other words, kinda the situation we find ourselves when we're children, right?

In those situations, you have to rely on this sort of cunning and creativity to

explore what's around you, to navigate the things that you can't change, and

to creatively nudge the things that you can to put things in play, you know?

So, But then we mature and we collect the set of responses to the world

that work sufficiently enough and we gain power in the form of experience

and authority and resources.

and we start to believe that this sort of mechanical image of

efficiency is applicable to humans.

It, it isn't.

Uh, and then play just seems like fun and inefficient.

Uh, something to do if you could spare the time and you've earned it and

not actually a strategy to perform better, which is how it starts in

our

life, I think.

Yeah.

So that suggests to me, so you, you said that like when, when my kids,

the world is like confusing and complex and with power, would it be

fair to say there's like an illusion of control that maybe doesn't exist?

I agree there, there is a.

Mythology around agency in a way.

Um, and I'm not a, a, a psychologist and it's a whole world of

academics that I'm not in, but, you know, I have an opinion, right.

Uh, and I, you hear things like, we, we make decisions based on emotions, and then

we justify the decisions based on logic.

Yeah.

Uh, but we're really, you know, going through this world in a way that is more.

About intuition and our strategic sense of it, not sort of some reverse

engineered plan of like, we know what we want and we've figured out

the most efficient way to get there.

I really feel like it's just more like enlightened, muddling through

of, you know, you take one step, you see what's around you, and then

you take another step based on what the, it's emerging in the situation.

And I'll let, I think it's.

Very playful and humble.

I, I, that is like my new favorite phrase,

enlightened, muddling through.

And I would certainly say that like, maybe not so much enlightened,

but muddling through defines my life, , you know, figuring it out.

But like, it's not a phrase that I would associate with the military, like that.

My, my assumption as an outsider is that it's, it's, it's got rules.

It's got structure it, so like the, those two phrase, you know,

those two worlds together, my like muddling through, sometimes

enlightened, sometimes not so en.

Being applied to this world that you are inhabiting?

Like how does that work?

You know, in some ways the play and the military are, are not at odd.

Um, and I could give examples, uh, in which there is play and that

sort of gets to a, a challenge.

I think we have, um, people who are advocating for play when we have

very loose definitions of play.

Play can sort of become anything, you know, our, our war games

play is the tradition of.

Airman singing songs.

Uh, is that playful?

You know, there's this sort of balian stories of excess drinking and partying

and, you know, is that play And if so, you know, kind of forces us to

confront that some forms of play may not be healthy, uh, and inclusive.

Sure.

But, but yes, you know, we definitely value discipline.

Do you think

it's possible to play, you know, where you don't have that,

um, that kind of structural power?

Do you think there is space for it in other places within a

hierarchy?

I do, I would hope that some people sort of have the courage

to, to live into that playfulness.

And I think a little bit goes a long way.

Um, and I think leaders can demonstrate it.

Yeah, they could, they could be explicit about it.

They could say, this is, this is what I've done and this is why I've done it.

You know, try this on yourself and see, see if it works for you.

See in what ways it works, uh, for you and, and help individuals

sort of build the sensibility of, of discerning when it's, when it's

appropriate and how it's appropriate.

Cuz it's, it's definit.

It's definitely not appropriate all the time.

Right.

I think that's obvious.

Yeah.

I think that's really interesting.

And do you think, what are those moments where it is actually not appropriate?

Like it's not okay.

Playfulness?

No, we can leave you

at the door.

I think so flying is a good example, , where on the surface you would think

this is not a aspect to be playful.

Uh, but, but flight from a historical perspective.

And this is what I really came across and discovered for myself doing research.

Cause again, before I, I approach things.

From sort of the techno rationalist perspective.

And what kept surprising me is I was coming across references to flight

and, and sort of the, the aspect that, that it ennobled, uh, some,

like a human spirit, a you know, a, the freedom of it, the artistic

impression of it, all those things.

For me it was just a scientific endeavor, right?

These are scientific engineered machines, uh, that based on physics, but there's

a lot that's based on psyche as.

I tried to capture that in, in the book, uh, the RIS solution.

Uh, but really there's this sort of beautiful melding of science

in the human spirit and flight.

Now, besides that, there, I would've to say that the time I felt really unprepared

to play, uh, was in the workplace was when we were guiding our organization

through the initial response to Covid.

And there was this big, you know, what is happening?

Like how do we care for our students?

We had 700 students from all over the world, and they had just shown up.

The national emergency in the United States was declared

five days into the course.

And so what, how do we take care of our faculty?

How do we take care of these students?

And I had been preaching the values of play for at least a year at that point.

You know, making presentations and coaching people to be more playful

and you know, ho hosting giant games of rock, paper, scissors, and.

You know, learning improv games from my brother and, and then in that moment,

like just sitting around the table, I felt like a hypocrite, like, like play

just feels inappropriate in this moment.

And, and I'm left to sort of the, when I had been critiquing like this

sort of just somber everyone sitting around wondering what to do next.

Uh, which is not a very effective way, I think to, to ignite our creativity.

Um, so I, I had a little bit of scar tissue from that and

so I was even more anticip.

it being parter when I, when I deployed.

Um, cuz then I felt like of all places to not play this, this will be it.

Right?

Uh, whereas people sort of expected me to play, you know, in when I was

facilitating workshops or preaching about rescuing icks and all those things.

And so, uh, but when I show up and there's blood and treasure on the

line, uh, I thought play was just gonna have to be something that I could only

steal from, you know, moments to get, to tend to myself as it turned out.

I think problem solving, uh, and setting the conditions for the team to perform.

Playfulness actually enabled both those things.

Mm-hmm.

To, to my surprise, it wasn't the sort of overt, explicit playfulness.

It was something a little different.

A lot of what we did when we deployers obviously stuff that, um, is classified.

But one of the things that we did that's in the, in the open

source is we deconflicted with the Russians who were flying aircraft

in Syria and close proximity to our aircraft, our coalition aircraft.

And I, you know, I have the three star General on our side.

On one side of me, I have the, the Russian General on the

other side, on the phone, and I.

Running through scenarios in my mind about how this could play out

in ways that I was not going to voice to the three star general.

Cause then he's gonna think I'm just loony.

Right?

But that ends up like producing some interesting ideas and when

I, you know, kind of happen upon the one, it's like, yes.

Like that's the right balance of crazy and it, it's gonna, I think it's gonna work.

You know, I'll say that idea.

I just won't explain to him that I got to it through a playful with it method.

Yeah.

I

love that.

So, and that's a very kind of personal kind of play.

You know, you are running that through in your own brain and giving yourself this

like expansiveness to mentally play and what sounds like a very kind of boxed

in, you know, you're physically boxed in, but like your mind being very expansive,

which is really interesting to me.

How your physiology could be so different to what's going on in your

brain and come up with something so

useful.

I, I agree.

I, I think there's a caveat.

You know, collective intelligence and that the so-called extended mind is

perhaps where we condition ourselves.

Like, it, it, it's a team sport, right?

And, and that enables the sort of moment that might seem like

the individual is doing it.

Uh, but I really know I've, I've been nurtured.

In a community of people that have helped me grow these skills.

And I think that's important too, right?

It's never the heroic individual.

Uh, even if it seems like that, even that's the way we tell the story.

Cause it just sort of makes sense that way.

Uh, it's always a community of practice.

Yeah.

I love

that.

And I think that is a beautifully generous, um, yeah, acknowledgement.

Like we are all steeped in the work.

The thinking and the beliefs of those who've come before

us.

Right.

Hard to untangle.

Yeah.

Right.

Those, you know, where we get those things from.

Like, I don't remember any particular lesson that I was taught, uh, in

grade school, but obviously they, you know, imparted skills onto me and I

have a, a sort of generic gratitude and I know how they made me feel.

Right.

I don't remember a specific thing they said, but I remember, you know, this

feeling from both teachers along the way.

Family and friends, my wife and my family just support, right.

That we, uh, we go out from, and I guess that gets back to the idea of

being safe and supported and stretched.

Yeah.

Lovely.

So I'm really, so you recently wrote an article which, um, was about

the playful splinters that kind of embedded in your brain at the moment.

And one of them that I find really interesting was this

play Ideologue problem.

So where we are like uncritically.

Kind of evangelical about why play at work is such a great thing.

And I definitely fall into that camp like.

Podcast is called Why Play Work.

So there's a kind of assumption there that it works.

Like tell me like a little bit about your thinking on this.

So, you know, is it always a good thing?

Like where, where have you netted out on that splinter?

Have you got it out

the yo I'm still trying to grasp at it.

Right.

Uh, so that's, and that was sort of a, a public airing of.

I, I'm still playing around with in my mind.

Uh, so, because again, because I, I, I know at some point I've gotta get

this outta my head and get dialogue with other smart people like yourself.

Uh, you know, about how, how does this fit?

What does it, what does it mean?

What are perspectives?

I'm not, uh, I'm not considering, uh, for that one in particular.

I, I think you're right, and, and I'm guilty of it as well.

Uh, I have just, I have seen other.

Design thinking is one of 'em, right?

Where because it was pushed so hard, there's sort of a,

a aging sort of a backlash.

And, and I don't want the same to happen to play.

Sure.

I don't, I don't want us to overstate the case so that when people find places

where it is inappropriate or where it doesn't work, wh which is true.

Uh, we don't throw the the whole thing out.

Uh, but I get it.

I get why we need at, at the very beginning, if you're trying to.

Nudge a a giant chip, giant cruise ship, and you're trying to nudge it.

You can't just kind of come along and gently with your, your tugboat kind

of just nudge it along a little bit.

One degree, you probably have to come at it hard from 90 degrees to

make even the smallest little dent.

So I get this sort of strategy of, Hey, why does play work?

And clever title, by the way, and I love clever titles, so why Play Works?

Wonderful.

Thanks.

I applaud you and your co-host for that.

Um, I, I see that, I see why we need to make that.

Um, but we, we just need to be a little cautious and, and

understand that there are.

Hey again.

I am, I am patient.

Zero for, for this problem.

I, so I, you can't see this cause we're on a podcast, but I have my, my

Legos spaceman shirt on, and if you remember the movie, uh, he's always

like, Hey, can I build this fake?

Can I build a space?

And, and finally at end, they're like, build a space show.

He's like, yes.

I feel like that's, I get to talk, I get to talk about play.

Uh, it's like that I'm, I talk about, can I talk about, and then

finally someone's like, Hey, why don't you come talk about play?

Yes, it's happening.

Didn't, didn't you

get to talk about play with naso recently?

I did.

This was pretty

cool, and it was amazing.

It was?

Yes.

Oh yes.

Life is, life has just been great.

I, I went to France for the first time.

This is an aside.

Uh, we took our students to France.

We toured various battlefield, very impactful educational experience, but we

found ourselves in Paris, uh, on a Friday afternoon, and we were done for the day.

And I sort of, I meant the, I decided to go to the loop.

I have never been, I had no expectations.

I had no plan myself and wasn't working.

I ended up just wandering around the place and.

Amazing.

I've got goosebumps uncovered so many things, including

like s up on the ceiling.

I didn't even know it was there.

Uh, but I, I feel like that's what's happened lately.

I've been wandering around and different people are like, come in this room.

Hey, these are some great people.

Let's talk about Clay.

Uh, you like, Hey, let's talk about playing on a podcast.

It's just, it's been fun.

Yay.

Um, I had goosebumps when you were telling me about, you're just wandering around

the lou like, wow, for the first time.

How exciting.

So I think from our perspective, you know, this is why we're doing this

podcast because we feel it needs, it's got a no much problem and it needs

kind of rehabilitating as a, as an.

Absolutely, absolutely.

And, and not just the type of visible, very explicit play that looks like a

game where someone has set up boundaries and said, in this time and place,

we can do these things in this way.

You know, this is, this is sort of the bounded play, play time, uh, and game.

But again, to go back to this idea of like warped play, um, how can play be a

useful tool for creative problem solving in moments that seem to be complet?

The opposite of when you'd want play to happen.

I, I think play works in those situations as well.

And I hope that starts to become part of our conversation about the value of play.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, that's really interesting.

And I think it requires real courage to kind of stick with it in those moments

when it's not, when it's not the obvious

path.

Yes, exactly.

So you, you can do this internally, right?

And then it, it's a little less courage required cuz you're not

revealing how you're doing things.

But I do think as leaders, it's important to talk about it.

And I'll be honest, I, so every night when I was deployed and I worked

seven days a week, uh, we would do a sync meeting, uh, with the, the ops

floor and, and the battle director.

So there were three battle director I'd come on shift.

We'd all kind of get on the same, uh, same page level, the bubble with each other.

And I started every meeting by asking people if they felt safe,

supported, objection, meaningful.

and it was awkward.

I mean, I, I thought like, I'm gonna do this thing, but every moment, every day

for the first week or so, I was like, oh, am I gonna, am I really gonna say this?

It's sort of like cringeworthy.

Um, and I was like, no, I'm gonna, I'm just gonna do it.

Uh, and then there was one night, you know, gave a month or two into it.

I, I didn't ask.

Uh, and I was just sort of inching, inching to what would.

Like Dom at the end of the table was like, sir, wait, before we go any

further, I, I think you're missing off

It's like was, I was kinda curious if, if people wanted that, you know or not.

And uh, he is like, oh, we need it.

We need it.

So I was like, yes, that, that was a little bit, that was a lot encouraging.

Yeah.

To be honest.

But yes, it takes some courage to do the weird thing then to, to invoke play.

Uh, whether it's the sort of typical Orthodox version of play

or the unorthodox, let's be crazy with wild ideas, sort of war play.

Yeah.

I mean, I had goosebumps like soul shivers when he.

You know, you'd given, you'd given them permission by starting this ritual,

and you'd maybe given them something that they didn't know they needed.

And then, and then, you know, when it was absent, they were

like, hang on, we need this.

I love, I love that.

Yeah.

You've reintegrated something there,

haven't you?

I tried.

You know, and that's what we hope, right?

Like, we hope that we are making some contribution to this larger project

of every individual's experience.

And I, I do felt, I do feel like it was, it was useful and it, it

was sort of unexpected too, right?

At one point someone said, I kind of, I kind of don't understand

how you ended up being a colonel.

Like, how are you, how are you the way you are?

and no, I think it's a compliment, you know, uh, they're like,

how are you the way you are?

And you've made it through our, our bureaucracy.

Um, and then I had to say, well, you know, I've, I've learned over the

last, only recently sort, I've learned to live into this identity, uh, this

more playful, uh, designer type role.

So, uh, so that's part of it.

And another part of it is maybe just, you know, the kindness of others

and, and grace and good fortune.

I don't know.

Well,

whatever it is, it's.

But I'd love to know, I mean, you've spoken a little bit about

different kinds of play, but like, what does play mean to you?

That's a nice juicy question.

Um, and, okay, so you asked what it means to me and not

necessarily how to define it.

No,

not how to define it.

Cover history.

Cuz we could be here for several days.

I mean,

yes.

I mean, so I, the academic part of my brain goes, oh,

like what is the definition?

But, but you've asked an easier,

I've asked you toga what play means to.

which is a good question.

So I'll say one.

The study of play is this like wonderful rabbit hole that I have fallen into, uh,

and really enjoy, and it's been really insightful and, and a strange journey.

And two, the, I'd say play itself is this underappreciated superpower that, uh,

again, paradoxically is probably most useful and most needed, uh, in those

moments when it seems not quite right.

Right.

Appropriate or applicable, right?

So matters when we're, you know, these, there's these mysteries

and these sort of risky dilemmas and our impulse is to be serious.

Uh, in that sense, that sort of play, uh, that I think of as unorthodox and

sort of, uh, centrifugal, uh, and even a touch subversive, um, is, is what I was

describing when, uh, when I was deployed.

Uh, and I found it useful, you know, since then.

and without, you know, I, I don't wanna go into any more details

about what it was, the point.

I've already mentioned it and there's a lot of things I, I can't say,

but I do wanna offer one example why I felt really playful recently.

So, and, and it was also sort of not quite right,

Uh, my youngest got, he's 11, and for Christmas my wife had ordered him.

He's, they're called hover shoes.

It's like a hoverboard.

So it's, it's one of those, but it's two independent shoes.

You stand on, you lean forward, and you go forward.

You lean back, you go back.

It's awesome.

And the dude lives on roller skates sometimes also in the dinosaur costume.

So we thought perfect fit for this guy.

We did it.

We're trying 'em out and I'm, I'm, most kids do this.

We, our family does this notoriously, after about like five minutes,

we're like, okay, here's how the thing is supposed to work.

We're like, Ooh, what if it did this?

Or like, how can we mess with it?

Or how can we like, use it in a way it wasn't intended for?

Uh, and so our oldest, uh, our oldest ends up like sitting on it and he is

like, oh, like a, it's like a little go.

and I'm, I'm sure we're breaking all sorts of rules and, you know, the lawyers for

the company would not be happy with us.

Uh, but then that follows.

And then I think our middle was in like, oh, race course.

And so we start moving furniture out, out to the side.

And then my wife says, oh, let's get some tape out, like painters tape.

And we like make up, we actually outline a course and then there's

music and there's official timekeepers.

And then, you know, it's like the best Christmas night ever.

And we're timing each other and setting records.

It all ends abruptly honestly, when, uh, we decide, let's turn off.

and then immediately, uh, someone crashes into a lamp, it all falls.

There's sort of this moment of like, oh, like we crossed a line

and I, and my wife was just.

Oh, well, you know, and everyone, and it sort of like broke the tension.

Everyone's cheering.

And anyway, I think that's the most playful, I felt in a long time.

It had this both element of like, we're not, we're not following the

rules and just like, hear fun with

others.

Oh, that sounds amazing.

And I'm, I couldn't possibly tell my son that such cool things exist,

, because, well, maybe I will, maybe I'll say that for his next birthday.

But that sounds awesome.

And I love the, um, just like pushing some, like playing with

something until it breaks, until you.

, you broke it and then you cel and then you celebrated, like the breaking or the

failure or the, there's like, it just, there's an exuberance and a kind of, yeah.

Fearlessness to that story that I love.

Have you got any other examples you can share with us about, you know,

how you have used play in your work?

So like in your teaching, you know, in your role as a member of the Air Force,

like how has that shown up and, you know, what, what has it done for you?

I can give a couple of examples.

Some of these ended up in, uh, professor James' book, uh, on

play that she recently released, uh, which is a, a great resource.

Uh, but at Squadron Officer School we were teaching 100% of Air Force

officers at the, at the captain level.

So they're five to seven years or so into, into being an officer.

Uh, they're in their late twenties on average, and we did a lot of.

Play where we were doing Lego serious play, or we're doing games

and challenges all with a, you know, for a curricular reason.

Right?

And this is why our, our faculty were very good at debriefing because, you

know, the goal of getting through this thing, uh, project X, it's sort of a

obstacle course, but it's, you have to think, uh, how, how to, how you and your

team are gonna get through the task.

The debrief at the moment where you say, Hey look, this is not

really about tying a knot, is it?

Right?

It's not.

We, we all know that.

So what is this really about?

Like we sort of played this game.

Uh, what did you get from it?

What are you gonna get back to your home station and, and

take from this experience?

Um, and so there was, there was play and it's a, it's a younger cohort

and they were generally willing to engage, you know, a giant rock paper

scissors contest and things like that.

Uh, it didn't take much of them to get excited.

So there's that to go to the, the deeper.

And I think the, what's really more interesting to me, sort of.

Is is play as sort of this a way we condition ourselves for strategic sense.

Uh, and I mean that, to differentiate it from just strategic thinking, right?

Something that sort of integrates up, um, intuition and emotions and the subjective

and the collective intelligence.

Um, I, and I think about this, uh, to use the words of James Car's, great

book about finite and infinite games.

Um, we're gonna try to prepare ourselves against surprise, but we

ultimately must be prepared to be.

And that sort of stamp, uh, builds some a capacity, uh, whether it's,

you know, physical or emotional or mental or social or even spiritual.

And I think that capacity relates to our ability to be strategists, um,

and, and not just produce a written strategy document, uh, but to think in

systematic terms over different time horizons in very creative and critical

ways, uh, as, as things emerge, right?

So that's the part that I'm really interested in, and I'm really, I,

I don't know how yet, Integrate that into the education of our

strategist, but it's, it's really on my heart and mind these days.

I

mean, that's so interesting.

I've done a lot of work with improv theater in my life, and

I know your brother is an improv teacher, but that stance is like an

improvisational stance and an improv, you often call it like fit and well.

And what I think is so interesting about that is there's like this

really embodied aspect to that.

It's a stance.

It's like I'm ready to catch whatever is thrown at me, you

know, physically, metaphorically, intellectually, emotionally.

It's a.

Openness and a willingness to work with what comes and notice what

comes Absolutely.

So, and, and, and to be attuned to it and, and to others on your team

as they perceive the, the emergent moment and, and how to react.

Or we're back to that sort of enlightened, muddling or, uh, my brothers taught me

this awesome saying of like having the plan and holding it tightly in open hand.

Oh, I love that

So that, right.

So as you just let it, if the situation doesn't warrant your plan, your preformed

notion of how you're gonna get what you think you want, uh, you just let it go.

and I, I mean, this is the power of Lego series play, right?

Of, you know, working with your hands and building these sort of 3D prints of

your thoughts and the metaphors that come out of, you know, as you try to grasp.

And there we go, right?

This is just very baked into our language, right?

Like physically grasp, but also conceptually grasp what's

happening in that moment.

Um, yes.

So that, that embodiment, how do we, how do we teach

strategists to, to leverage that?

Uh, that is what I'm interested in.

It, it's not everything, right?

We're not gonna build a strategy on intuition alone, but we

can't deny that, that intuition.

At the same time, we can't deny the, the role of storytelling, and we can't.

And you know, in fact, I, you know, you can define stories as,

uh, a set of characters seeking to prevail in a given context.

And that's exactly how you can describe strategy, right?

A set of characters seeking to prevail in that context.

So how do we bring that storytelling logic, uh, to, to formal

strategy for an organization?

Yeah.

And I just love that idea of like how that you are bringing this embodied knowing,

intuition, wisdom into this military context, which seems so counterintuitive,

but I feel delighted that it's going on.

it's happening.

It doesn't always happen.

Well, um, you know, some of that's my own fault, right?

Because I'm, I'm so honing my craft to be the right advocate of, of play.

Uh, and sometimes it's, it's not what fits the moment.

I've explored different ways of introducing it, talking about Lego as the

secret strategic thinking tool that, you know, was developed at Denmark and we, we

pretended it's a toy so that, you know, we people won't uncover our super secret,

you know, tool that we've discovered.

Um, but yes, it's, it's not always what the audience wants

and that's important, right?

Like as facilitators, as leaders, as designers, we're

always trying to empathize, uh, with the user and the audience.

And, uh, if, if play is gonna turn people off, then I'm gonna either.

Bake play in sort of as a Trojan horse, uh, or, uh, or find something that, that

they'll, they'll participate with, right?

Yeah.

Or maybe we just need to evangelize more until everybody realizes it's a good thing

and we don't need to hide it anymore.

Like a guilty secret . There you go.

So I just love, I, I know you have an interesting take on the difference

between play and playfulness.

Can you tell me a little bit about

that?

So this, this is a great question to highlight.

My split personality . , I'm of two minds when it comes to what I engage in,

whether it's play or design or strategy.

And, and sometimes I'm wearing my hat as a, as an ac.

Uh, sometimes I tackle it as a practitioner.

Uh, and the two perspectives don't always play well together.

Uh, and, and, and that's okay.

Right?

Um, it's a little like, uh, Isaiah Berlin, the, his famous tension between

the hedgehog, the hedgehogs, coherent master view of everything, and then the

diversity and chaos of the fox, right?

And, and the fox is really the, the way to go.

Uh, so on one.

The academic side, I get wrapped up in all sort of semantics

and the, the ophthalmology and intellectual history and so on.

Uh, I, I'll tell you a good example.

The very first episode of this podcast with Robert, he mentioned play as a

technology and in a scholarly sense.

I, you know, I, I took that in and I, I have doubts a little

bit whether that actually works.

You know, does that honor the.

The real meaning of that word.

Uh, but practically does it matter, right?

No.

Does it, does that, does that phrase help us make sense?

You know, does it help us manufacture meaning?

Is it useful?

Uh, I think so, right?

So, uh, and I, that same sort of distinction between play and

playfulness, it exists for me.

So academically, there's that rabbit hole that I fall down, uh, about what's

the difference between these two things.

And I, you know, I wrote this whole essay and then I threw it away.

Cause I'm like, no, that's just wrong . Uh, but, but it practically.

For me practically in the moment.

The the point I I make with people that I think is useful is that you

can be playful outside the bounds of formal, recognizable, explicit play.

Yes.

Uh, and if we're gonna appreciate play at work, uh, we have to frame

that in a way that doesn't limit the power of play to just games.

Um, we, we, we can, we can see it as an attitude, a disposition, a sentiment,

a sensibility, uh, a tool to te.

and like all tools, it can be used for good purposes or bad purposes.

It can use well or poorly.

Uh, but yeah, we could definitely be playful without play.

Yes.

I love that.

And, and you have also done a lot of, um, design thinking work, and

am I right in saying that you have a similar distinction that you make

between design and design fullness?

Yes, I do.

Uh, and, and I, I totally imported that from play and playfulness because I.

I'm not a trained designer, right?

I, I participated in a lot of design thinking education, uh, and as I

facilitated more and more, uh, I noticed something in myself that was sort

of outside of a formal design event.

I, I was thinking more like a designer, um, at least a little bit, right?

So, you know, the, the Stanford D School, uh, which is not the only

way to approach design thinking, uh, but it's a very accessible.

uh, it, it starts with empathy.

And I would say I, I probably am, was not the most empathetic person.

It was sort of a, an area, a learning edge for me.

Uh, and I found that even when I wasn't, you know, doing formal design and formal

empathy work, whether it's interviews or mapping, user journeys, ethnographic

observation, all those things, I, I kind of felt I was becoming more empathetic.

And, and, and so when I was trying to wrap my mind around how to describe

this, I ended up importing that same distinction and, and calling it design.

And I presented that.

At the Savannah College of Art and Design to like real professional

designers and grad students, and no one threw anything at me.

what's so, so I guess it, I guess it, it comported with their, their

view of the world, or at least they're just really nice people.

That's it not heckle me in that

moment.

Well, it certainly makes sense to me and I think there's something,

you know, there's something lovely and very portable about both the

idea of playfulness and mindfulness.

Yeah, I think so.

And, and I really have a hard time teething out.

How is mindfulness different than playfulness?

I mean, that, that button diagram.

has a lot of overlap in, in my mind.

Um, but I do have a question for you if that's fair.

Yeah.

totally on your podcast to a lot of your guests, and I've loved all the guests.

They've been amazing.

I've noticed a lot of them share, uh, a, a common experience with

design and design thinking.

Mm-hmm.

, and I was wondering if you had an idea why that is?

Well, maybe you've just said it, like, I think there

is a lot of overlap between the two.

So I think, I mean, and I'm not a design thinking expert by

any stretch of the imagination.

But I think there is a sense of like holding things lightly.

There's a curiosity, there's a, um, kind of creativity and kind of co-creative

aspects of design thinking that I think, yeah, as you said, shares a lot of

characteristics with play and playfulness.

And I guess like, I dunno if the sort of people that design thinking attracts.

Kind of just playful in nature.

They like playing with ideas, they like playing with others.

Um, yeah.

And I guess that like, coming back to your concepts of walk, play, you know, there's

an element of that in design, isn't it?

Like taking one thing and mashing it with another and seeing where

that takes you would be my sense.

I mean, it hasn't been an intentional, um, like we need to find not some design

thinkers, but that's just kind of how it's fallen for these first few episodes.

Does that answer your question?

Yeah,

, Jason "TOGA": uh, that's great.

Uh, some, yeah.

Something to explore, right?

I, I, I agree.

There is something, you know, one of the things that attracts me to this

idea of warped play, which, which came out of, I don't know where it came

from in my mind or, or what I've heard over the years and read, but I ended up

like essentially staying up all night.

One day when I was deployed, I was right on the verge of sort of abandoning play.

I was like, it just means everything and you know, the concerns about

being an ideolog, all that.

And then that's sort of what recovered it for me in that moment.

And so I just had one night of, you know, writing all these things down,

but, but one of the reasons I liked work is because it does have this hands.

Sense of like, manipulate, fabricating, you know, all these things that relate

to, to embodied knowledge and sort of where design really gets its roots and

our ability to, to manipulate an object.

Right?

And And all that.

All that, yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I love that.

So before we finish, we ask all of our guests to share a playful practice.

Something that, you know, people who want to experiment with play at

work could take and have a go at.

And I wondered if you had something you could.

So I knew this was coming, right?

Cause I've listened to all the other episodes and they've been great.

Uh, I was trying to think, what can I say that's different?

Cuz there there's been so much brilliance shared and so I, I'm telling you,

my mind ranged from cold showers to writing haku to prep for a test, to

kind of my warmup for my runs that involves like skipping and crawling

. Um, but here's where I landed, right?

As one thing to do, uh, and to exercise and refr.

you can do it with others.

And I think it really, it actually helps diffuse some tension.

So it's really useful.

Uh, so imagine you're in a car, okay?

You can do this anywhere, but I find that this is where it happens for me.

You're on your commute, you're locked in, you're getting to where you need to

go, you're listening to your favorite podcast, whatever, uh, and then a stranger

does something that bothers you, right?

So in traffic, you know, someone cuts you off or something.

And my immediate unenlightened response is, you know, that jerk,

you know, like, there's judgment.

It's instant aggravation.

I feel a tension in my chest.

. And then I challenge myself like, like what would be a rational, viable,

acceptable reason for what they just did?

Um, and usually it's like, maybe they're dog's dying.

They're on the way to emergency, to the vet, you know, or something.

And then I'm like, Hey, well what, what else could it be?

And it gets like goer and, and crazier.

Along the way, and then it becomes fun, right?

Uh, and it's like, oh, what if, you know, and you construct this entire implausible

scenario about what they're doing, and you sort of have forgotten long now

that you, you actually got frustrated and it didn't really matter at all.

And, uh, I find that this is a really useful trick, , uh,

when I'm commuting to work.

So there you go.

That, that's my tip for a

play practice.

That's so much I love about that one because I have to drive my

son to school every day, you know?

And I get the road rage sometimes, so I'm definitely gonna try that.

And two that you've given us so.

That's so easy to slot into our day.

So thank you.

Absolutely.

Thank you for that.

And also just a massive thank you for being a brilliant guest on why

Playworks and sharing, you know, such depth and breadth of insight

and knowledge and wisdom about play.

It's been a real pleasure to have you on the show.

Absolutely.

It, it's been a pleasure.

I appreciate it.

Hopefully it's helpful to anyone.

I'm happy to talk, play at any time with anyone.

Can I, do we have time?

Can I add two minutes?

Yeah.

. Okay.

Um, first of all, uh, most, if not all of what I've said has

been stolen from other people.

Right.

And I, and I really try hard to credit where I've gotten different

ideas on, but there's so many great things from so many great people.

I inevitably fail at that.

So I just wanna say like, th thank you to, to them, right?

And, uh, I'm thankful, right?

I'm, there's a note of gratitude for all those people who have

contributed to the larger conversation.

Uh, there's that and second.

So I know this is gonna live on the inner webs, but you know, I think we should

all reserve the right to change our mind about any of these things, right?

Because, uh, I'm certainly not a finished product and I hope no one who

listens to this gets the misconception that one play is this magic thing

that's gonna always work or that I have things figured out, right?

Um, and I love that in the first episode, Robert admits to like

forgetting to play sometimes and then sort of gracefully returning to it.

Uh, and we're all just sort of messy creatures.

We're evolv.

. And that's kind of the point, right?

We, we play to learn, uh, and we learn different things and we change our minds.

And, you know, as children we don't need to learn to play, but maybe as adults,

yeah, we do.

Oh, we need to relearn reintegrate back to your back to where we

started.

Yeah.

There you go.

And, and there's a, and this podcast has a, as a role.

Yeah.

It plays a role in that.

Lovely.

Okay, well thank you so much, toga.

It's been a delight.

Same.

Thank

you very much.

So Lucy, how was your conversation with toga?

Yeah, it was lovely.

I really enjoyed it.

and I think the, the biggest thing I'm gonna take away is that military

people are also enlightened, muddling through that was, that game was

a real surprise and joy to me.

that, that sense of, you know, we don't all have it figured out.

Absolutely.

And and kind of link to that, there's something he said quite early in your

conversation, which I just, I had to pause and write it down and think about it.

He said something along the lines of, most of what I've been inspired

by is mistakes, deficiencies and short term problem solving.

And I was just like,

Hmm.

imagine that.

Just saying, yeah, everything you've been inspired by is mistakes.

I thought that.

I found that really profound actually.

Um, and exactly that this idea of kind of muddling through, we

are allowed to change our minds.

We are in completely, kind of works in progress, hopefully

right to the end of our lives.

Yeah.

yeah, I love that reflection of his

Yeah.

And the freedom that comes with that, you know, if we embrace that concept.

kind of linked to that idea of iteration work in progress,

this idea of, um, and, and again, enlightened muddling through, which is

just a fantastic term, was this idea of kind of stumbling upon discoveries.

And again, just a phrase used.

She was like, I've gotta use that as like following the foot notes.

So you read something and you kind of go into the footnotes and you

follow those to the next part.

And then in, he said, took me to this book.

And then I followed the footnotes of that book and it led me to this.

And it's kind of like the breadcrumbs, you know, the, the, the song discoveries

following footnotes, kind of finding the next piece of the puzzle.

Um, I just, I love that.

Yeah.

That sound, it's so, um, just sounds so enjoyable.

Mm, mm-hmm.

Um, I really liked what he said about doing the check-in

with his colleagues, and he felt really awkward doing it to start

with, and actually he pushed through that awkwardness and kept going.

And then, you know, when he, he lost his comfort of thought, or maybe,

maybe they're not enjoying this and stopped, actually he'd, he'd given

them this thing that they didn't know they, they needed, and I think.

Staying with the awkward feeling where you're not sure if it's the

right thing, and just sticking with that discomfort for a bit longer

I think can be really powerful.

yeah, absolutely.

You just said the word discomfort and it's often seen as a negative

thing, something to be avoided, but discomfort doesn't have to be a bad

thing, and I love the idea of sitting with the fact that it's uncomfortable

and trying to push past that.

. Yeah.

I learned a lot from that.

And I, I also really like this idea of how to kind of think about strategic

thinking and, and kind of problem solving.

You need that kind of analytical head, but you also need the playful child and how

I was thinking, In just kind of workshops and meetings in our day to day, how that

playful trail does not welcome in the conversation and it, it does not have a

role, does not have a seat at the table.

And it just kind of got me thinking what would happen if in these kind of

routine business interactions and meetings when you're trying to solve a problem?

you almost had like a rotating role of someone using like who had to

take on that playful trailed role.

And it was like a hat they would wear just for that meeting and, and next time

it'd be someone else's turn to use that.

And it's just you kind of had this mandate to ask certain questions or to

throw certain suggestions out there and I thought that was really freeing or

it could be really freeing because it eradicates this need for people to either.

Self-identify as being playful and kind of having that to offer.

Cause I think a lot of people don't think they are playful or don't think they are

creative and they kind of opt out of this.

Whereas if it was something that you didn't have to deem yourself playful or

not, but it was your turn that day to kind of channel this role, I just thought

that could be really freeing because it kind of give everyone this small

bit of permission or this small piece of time to, to kind of play that role.

And yeah, I thought that was something I, I would love to see being.

I love that idea.

I also thought, um, what he said about play conditioning, our

strategic sense and that not being an intellectual thing, but being a stance.

So that ability to be in the moment to respond to things as they emerge.

Um, and being that that more kind of instinctual place and

that being an important part of strategy was really interesting to.

absolutely.

there was also something about he was saying, um, in his recollections

about the , the Russian military representative next to him and it was

a very kind of high stakes, obviously, you know, high conflict situation.

And he was talking about how he was kind of internally taking that playful stance.

And again, I just found it freeing that he was saying in his experience,

You didn't need to be kind of overt in your playfulness or to conform

to other people's ideas or what playfulness looked like, that you

can be kind of in your own head.

You can be taking a very personal approach to something internally that feels

playful to you, but it doesn't have to be something that is shared or is overt or

can be Yeah, deem playful by the people.

And I just thought that was.

Again, that's within all of our gifts, right?

You don't need playmates for that.

You don't need environments for that, which welcome this.

It's something that you can decide, Hmm, how can I tackle this problem playfully?

Um, so I just, I found that freeing too.

I found a lot of what he said.

Very freeing.

I think there was something about, and it kind of links back to

that example, the value of play in situations which are not about play.

So taking it out of the realm of games and finding ways of inserting it.

In unlikely situations.

Um, so as he did there, he did it in his own head.

But you know, finding those little ways can bring it where it's not

an obvious place to bring it.

Yeah.

I think the last thing that I kind of noted down was this

just really fascinating idea.

again, when we are children, when we're younger, play is such

a valuable and required tool.

You know, it's a method of interacting with the people, with our environments,

understanding how do we kind of respond to the world and, and then

we just kind of eventually gather enough experiences of doing that.

Enough kind of responses with how do we interact with the world.

We gain power through gaining those experiences and then it's just like,

oh, you're not needed anymore play.

Cause I've kind of got, I've got a full inventory now of kind of ways in which

to interact the world and it seemed, you know, as this kind of superfluous,

inefficient thing on top now and as this like, again, fascinated as to

kind of the trajectory it goes on from being so central and so required and

so powerful as a tool of learning how to enrich the world to being this.

It's like you fill up all your units of learning and then it's kind of discarded.

Hmm.

I just found that really, really a really powerful

idea of, I'd love to change that.

Yeah.

And the, and the inverse relationship between power and play.

I hadn't really hadn't thought of it like that before.

It's really one to ponder.

Thank you so much for listening today.

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