S3 E10 Curiosity Over Certainty: Leading Through Divided Times Danielle Marshall S3E10

Change the Reel website

Episode 10: Danielle Marshall on Why Curiosity Matters More Than Ever

Danielle Marshall, equity strategist, executive coach, and host of Unpacked Culture Chronicles, joins Monique Velasquez and Piper Kessler to discuss the hardest conversation happening in workplaces right now: how to stay curious when everything feels polarized. With 25+ years in the nonprofit sector and deep expertise in culture change, Danielle breaks down why certainty is the enemy of progress, when NOT to bridge divides, and how authentic media can help leaders tell humane stories.

In This Episode You'll Learn:

• Why curiosity has become a radical act in divided times • The power of the pause and why leaders say "I don't have time" for it • How to distinguish between transactional and transformational relationships • Why "certainty" is the biggest obstacle to understanding across differences • When bridging divides is actually harmful (and what to do instead) • How to tell stories of struggle without exploiting communities ("trauma porn") • Why her podcast evolved from audio-only to video as a culture work tool • Real examples of culture divides in organizations (upstairs/downstairs, political ideologies) • The aha moment that changed how she thinks about polarization

Key Moments

00:00:04 - Cold open: "This work has never been more difficult"

00:03:00 - Full guest intro: Danielle Marshall's 25-year equity and nonprofit background

00:05:51 - Foundation philosophy: "Stay curious" (the sign on her wall)

00:08:39 - Two threads: curiosity + the power of pause; why leaders resist pausing

00:11:50 - Business model: equity/organizational development + executive coaching

00:22:07 - Podcast genesis: clients wanted conversations but didn't know how to start

00:23:48 - Core insight: "The biggest enemy of curiosity is certainty"

00:26:37 - Aha moment: transactional vs. transformational relationships

00:31:02 - Podcast evolution: moving from audio-only to video to capture authenticity

00:37:56 - The polarization conversation: when bridging divides crosses into harm

The Core Tension

Danielle articulates the central challenge of 2026: we're living in a time when curiosity feels impossible, yet it's more necessary than ever.

The obstacle? Certainty. When we assume we already know what someone thinks, believes, or wants, there's no room for dialogue. No space for growth.

But here's the nuance: Danielle doesn't advocate for curiosity in all situations. Some divides—around fundamental human rights, safety, identity—aren't meant to be "bridged." Instead, she reframes the work: pick the divides where curiosity is safe, start there, and build the muscle for harder conversations later.

Making It Work: Three Takeaways

1. Pause Before You Act

Leaders are drowning in "doing." The pause isn't a luxury—it's a business strategy. Ask yourself: Where are we coming from? Where are we today? What do we want next?

2. Check Your Agenda

Danielle's coaching doesn't tell people what to think. It gets them to think. That distinction matters. Your job isn't to convince—it's to create space for reflection.

3. Tell Humane Stories, Not "Trauma Porn."

When communicating about communities, organizations, or struggles, don't exploit pain to justify need. Tell the full picture. People dealing with hardship often have dignity, strategies, and strength. Represent that.

Why This Matters Now

Leadership burnout is real. Cultural divides are widening. But Danielle's evidence is clear: organizations with leaders who stay curious, who pause to reflect, and who build transformational (not transactional) relationships outperform those that don't.

This isn't soft skills talk. This is business infrastructure.

Danielle's Media Journey

Danielle started Unpacked Culture Chronicles as audio-only because she was camera-shy. Her face gives away what she's thinking—and she worried that wouldn't work on camera.

Then she realized that authenticity IS the work. Viewers need to see her reactions, her "aha" moments, her humanity. So she moved to video. Now her team pushes her to capture more content—workshops, stages, conversations—because modeling curiosity in real time is part of her teaching.

It's representation. It's proof that culture work happens in the messy, human moments.

Work with Danielle Marshall

Website: www.culture-principals.com

LinkedIn: Danielle Marshall (active)

Danielle works with organizations on culture change and equity, and coaches leaders navigating polarization, organizational divides, and the hard work of staying human in difficult times.

velasquezmedia.com | [email protected]

#CultureWork #Curiosity #EquityWork #LeadershipDevelopment #InclusiveLeadership #OrganizationalChange #Polarization #DEI #AuthenticLeadership #Coaching #NonprofitLeadership #ChangeTheReel #RepresentationMatters

CHANGE THE REEL with Piper and Monique

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Executive Producers: Monique Velasquez and Piper Kessler

Producer: Arielle Morten

Director/Editor: Simon Beery/Meredith Sause/Alyssa D'Avanzo

Copyright 2026 Monique & Piper

This work has never been more difficult,

and it doesn't even

matter what your job is.

Life is difficult right now, and I want

to help people come to terms with

strategies that make

sense for them that are authentic to

their ways of being and that

honor their norms and values.

Change the Reel with Monique Velasquez

and Piper Kessler. For more than 20

years, we've worked in

video production behind the scenes,

helping mission-driven

organizations and leaders.

This podcast exists for leaders who know

their stories matter and

are ready to stop guessing

and start using video strategically to

further their mission. Not

just fill a contact calendar.

Each month, we drop two types of

episodes, one with Piper and I kicking

it, sharing production

insight from our own work, and another

featuring real stories about

using media to create change

and connection. This is Change the Reel.

Representation starts here.

Hey y'all, I'm Monique Velasquez and I'm

Piper Kessler. Today, I'm

excited to introduce our

guest, Danielle Marshall. Danielle is an

equity strategist, executive

coach, and host of Unpacked

Culture Chronicles, a podcast exploring

how curiosity can bridge

cultural divides and bring

people closer across differences. With

more than 25 years in the

nonprofit sector spanning

leadership, program development, and

organizational strategy, Danielle has

dedicated her career to

challenging assumptions, shifting

narratives, and fostering meaningful

change. She's also a sought-

after coach and facilitator. She partners

with leaders to

cultivate inclusive workspaces,

deepen cross-cultural understanding, and

design strategies that

drive both equity and impact.

Her work is grounded in the belief that

transformation begins with conversation,

but it's what happens next that truly,

truly matters. When we

replace judgment with curiosity,

we don't just open the door to a

dialogue, we lay the foundation for

deeper understanding,

stronger relationships, and meaningful

action. Danielle, thanks for

being with us on Change the

Reel. Thank you so much for having me. I

do love a good intro,

so I appreciated that.

Well, one of the things that we always

start with, when we have a guest

on, is to ask the question of,

even if this is a person that you've

never actually met, if you

could hand out your flowers today,

who would you honor for shaping your

entrepreneurial journey?

In terms of entrepreneurship, that feels

so difficult for me

because I did not plan to

become an entrepreneur. I had no desire

whatsoever. I even believe in my 20s, I

might have said never.

Be careful what you say because the nevers

seemed to come back. But

when I think about maybe who has

inspired me, it's not a singular person.

It is a collective of

strong women leaders who have

decided to forge their own path forward

because some of the systems

that they had been working

under were no longer working for them.

Again, I can't just point

to one person because there's

so many women that I admire that have

done a fantastic job

with bridging that divide.

And so let's dig a little deeper because

I know that sometimes

that journey is a long path.

It doesn't just start like today or

yesterday or whatever. So in their

journey in entrepreneurship,

what currently, who is the person that

you're really sort of digging

the information that you're getting about

entrepreneurship

currently? Is there somebody

specific that you're like reading or

watching? Again, I'm so sorry that I

can't answer you with

a straightforward answer here, but I

collect information from

everywhere. I have always

prided myself on being someone who I'm a

huge reader. Like I

believe on book number 27 for

the year already. And it spans a lot of,

some of it is business

development, some of it is fictional

or historical writing. And I sort of pull

from everything. And so

the same is true. I listen to

a lot of podcasts and webinars, et

cetera. But what I think may

differentiate me and why it may be hard

to just say like, this is the person I

look to is one of the things that I

really enjoy doing is

hearing what people have to say in its

entirety, but then discerning what

actually works for you.

There are many people I respect deeply,

and yet all the ways that

they move forward in life are

not exactly the ways that are in tune

with how both I want to move

or in some cases, our moral

compass may point in different

directions. And so currently, what are

some ideas that you're

sort of kicking around? Because I have

that same sort of collect

information, synthesize it,

and then just sort of apply it to what

I'm currently anticipating

as business. But sometimes

it's about a deeper journey within

myself. So what kind of

ideas are you currently kicking

around that's synthesizing for you? I'm

curious. So you see my sign

on the wall, right? It says,

stay curious. That is a huge thread in

what I do. I am both very

curious as an individual myself,

but it is something that in my coaching

work and even organizational

development that I am really

trying to get people to latch onto. It

seems somewhere along the

lines, we have stopped being

curious about other people. And I think

that is really challenging

because it's both about the

people, but it's ideas. It's about where

even something as simple

as, oh, we know that's a fact.

I'm like, do we know that is a fact? How

are you getting your

information? Where are you getting

your information from? And are you

comparing it to anything else? And so I

think curiosity is a huge

thread for me right now, as is something

that I have been talking about a lot

frequently, which is

the power of the pause. And as I say

that, one of the things that I am just

really noticing, we are

living in a day and age where it is very,

very complicated. A lot

of people, whether they are

entrepreneurs or working a W-2 job, feel

like they are doing two

to three jobs at any given

moment. And when we find ourselves this

level of busy, the first

thing that goes out of the window

is intentionality. How can we be

intentional when we're just constantly

doing, doing, doing?

And so when I ask people to take a pause,

it's to be very thoughtful

about what is actually happening.

So where are we coming from? Where are we

today? And what do we

ultimately want for our company,

for ourselves, our families next? And

I've gotten a lot of

pushback on that too, because people

constantly say like, "Hey, Danielle,

that's a great idea, but we

don't have time for that."

And to that, I would simply say, you

don't have time not to.

You know, I find a lot of times there's

some pushback there on

that idea of like, "Well,

I don't have time for that." I think that

that's a little bit

speaks to a little bit of their

discomfort of actually thinking about

what it is they really

want to have happen either for

themselves or their business or their

community, right? So

interesting for the pause, and I love

that idea. And it really does lead us

into this next question,

which is about your business,

because it sounds like you're already

practicing a little bit of what you're

talking about with us

about what your business is. What's at

the heart of what you do?

And tell us a little bit,

you know, what motivates you to show up

as Danielle every day.

It's so interesting that you asked that

question today, because I

had to sit down the other day

and really think about that deeply.

Because this is the first time

in my life where I feel like -

I have goals. I always have goals, but

the goals felt a little fuzzy for me,

right? Why do I keep

getting up and doing the work that I do

every day?" I am someone who

is deeply committed to social

justice. I always have, I probably always will be. And

when I look around the

world today, there pretty much

isn't a single issue area that is

untouched right now. There's such a deep

need for people to dig in,

to speak out, to be disruptors of the

status quo, that I think

that is what is fueling me.

But when you ask about the business, my

business is sort of divided

into half. So on one half,

I am very much focused on the equity

work, and that's organizational

development. So I am coming

in working with people who perhaps want

to understand better

how they relate to others

from a cultural competence standpoint. So

I run some

assessments. I will then also do

workshops with individuals, depending on

what they need. It

might be anything from,

you know, we're uncovering bias in the

moment to we're trying to

figure out communication

strategies. Like maybe the team generally

gets along well, but

externally we are missing the

mark when it comes to how we're

communicating with the clients that we

serve. And we want to

make sure that we're inclusive as

possible in that process.

And then the other thing that I

ultimately do is I am not someone who

believes that the broad sweeping

statements that we've

used, whether it is, you know, stop Asian

hate, Black Lives Matter,

all the things that we've

come across in the last couple of years.

That's lovely, but how are you

demonstrating it? So I'm

much more of the mindset that we want to

operationalize these things into your

business, not as an add-on,

but in terms of if you look at your

business plan, how are you being

inclusive within that? How are

you making sure that your decisions are

equitable at the end of the

day? And so that's a big piece

of the work that I do when it comes to

the organizational

development. But where the

coaching comes in, right? That is almost,

it happened by

happenstance and it has become a

great love for me because the coaching

side of the business came

when we started developing these

action plans. And I will say this in a

heartbeat. People intellectually

understand a great many

things, right? They can say, "I see my

name on the paper. You know, this is

Piper. I'm supposed to

be responsible for this particular task

by this date. I get what

I'm supposed to do. Here's the

deliverables." And then Piper is like,

"Oh, but I have to talk to

Monique and I'm not really sure

that conversation is going to go well."

And so what ended up happening

is people kept coming back to

me for coaching more and more. How do I

move through this moment?

There's tension. There's

some polarization that exists within the

organization or we're

not really sure how to

get to the best decision. And so a lot of

my coaching sort of stems

from that with the added

lens that because I focus on culture, I'm

not just listening to the

systemic problem that we're

dealing with. I'm listening to the norms

and values that come with the people that

are involved in this.

Wow. I mean, it's, you know, the building

blocks of your business

come from what's inside of you.

And, you know, I find it interesting that

you've got this social

justice component. You know,

how do you, how does that show up for you

in your need to do the kind

of work that you're doing?

I don't think there's another job for me,

right? Like, it's so

ingrained in who I am as a person,

you know, you asked about motivation. You

don't have to motivate

me to fight for justice.

That's just who I am as a person. But

also I think where it

additionally shows up is it's not just

enough for me, the individual to have

this strong bone of social justice

running through me. I want

to help other people to build their own

skill sets around this. So

if they're questioning, can I

enter this work or maybe I need to

strengthen something that I

already feel committed to,

those are the people that I most love

working with. I have joked

at times for my friends and

people that know me well is I am not here

to convince you because

convincing you is not my

particular ministry. What I am here to do

is to walk alongside

people who are committed to this

work already who just need a little

additional support. And so

that's the thing that I find

really fascinating about you and maybe

it's telling of myself is

that you have this patience

and it and it is it's the curiosity. It's

the curiosity I think

that is the key. But so it's

some time in your life, there must have

been a moment when you

realized that you were not there,

you weren't, that your representation was

needed and that it was

missing and you were the one that

was being called to step up and to model

that change. Is there a

time like a certain moment

that you can think of? Yeah, it's not a

certain moment, it is my

entire life. From the time that

I went into elementary school, I was one

of I think maybe two or

three Black children in the

entire school. And now this is saying

something because I grew up

in New York City, right? We are

one of the largest cities in the country,

one of the most diverse and yet I

happened to get put into

a school where there was no

representation. And I have very distinct

memories of that because there

were a lot of times that when blame

needed to go around and said

classroom, it was aimed at me,

regardless of whether or not I had taken

part in certain

things or I didn't. And so-

That's nuts, that's really crazy. Yeah,

it is, it's absolutely nuts. And so-

How did little Danielle deal with that?

Not well because I didn't have the

language at that point, right? So it's

this thing where you

are aware something is happening in your

body, you notice there

is a sense of injustice

and I don't know what to do about it,

right? And so I think I

found my way, I can't remember

everything that I did back then, that was

a long time ago, but I

tried my best to communicate

where I was involved, where I was not

involved in things. I brought my mom in

and got her involved

in conversations. She was also an

educator, so sometimes

that worked in my favorites,

sometimes that worked against me. But the

thing is I was mostly relying on my

ability to communicate

at that time, but you just have to think

about this. If you're

eight or you're 10 years old,

you can't compete with an adult who's 30,

40, who's the head of

the classroom, who is the

principal in the school. They're going to

outthink you at every

level because you're just not

developed in that way. So I was able to

notice that something was not quite

right, but I wasn't able

to defend myself in that way. And as I

look back on it, I'm like,

why did I have to defend anyway?

It's these narratives and assumptions

other adults brought into the room that

colored my experience.

That's interesting. Growing up, we moved

around a lot. We were a

military family. And so I did find

myself being one of - my brother and I went

to the same school. He was a

few years older than I was.

And so there are these experiences that

make you go, hey, people

aren't being treated the same.

It's not equitable. It's not something

that is just assumed

everybody's at the same place.

And it's an interesting thing growing up.

And even as children were

taught, okay, everybody's equal

and blah, blah, blah. But we see

constantly that there are

places where it's not equal,

that some names are being brought up more

when something has gone

awry, or there's something

that's been derailed or plans have gone, you

know, askew. And we see that as

children, we're like,

well, okay, we're suddenly learning

something here. And so I find it

interesting that those

moments, you know, our lives are probably

filled with those moments

as people, women of color.

And so I find it interesting that you

have this self-awareness and this

reflection now as an

adult, maybe in your early teens, that

helped you push into

this career in equity.

I do think that that colors my

experience. But I also think

it is about the individual,

because there are many people who grew up

very similarly to how I,

you know, I did. And they

have chosen very different paths. And I

don't say that from a place

of judgment. It's just simply

we've diverted on our pathways. But I

think there is also

something, and again, I won't say it's

unique to me, but it is definitely my way

is that when I see

something that needs fixing,

I tend to speak up on it. And not

everyone has found their voice in that

particular way. They

may have the self-awareness to notice it.

But whether they take action

on it or voice their opinion

is a very different thing. Right, because

everybody can take that

experience and they can

use it for a different, I mean, how you,

for whatever reason,

and it may have been other

experiences, pushed you in a different way

where other people may have

been like, "Oh, well, this

just taught me to assimilate and be

quiet. And this is the way

the world is." As opposed to,

"Hey, I'm going to speak up." So thanks

to little Danielle for

not assimilating and going,

"I recognize this and I recognize it as

something that needs to be fixed."

Yeah. I like to ask people frequently,

like, "By whose

yardstick are you measuring?"

Right? And to me, that is one of those

questions. When people start

talking about assimilation,

why do I have to assimilate? Right? It's

basically, you're asking me to assimilate

for your comfort, not for mine. And I

think that is maybe along with the fact

that I was self-aware

as a child. I also had a bit of a

rebellious streak. And it may look

different today as an

adult, but I don't accept that. I

outwardly reject that notion that I have

to be more like you to be

accepted. Can you share with us a place

where you felt like, "Oh,

I'm rebellious here and I'm

going to stand up and push back to the

idea of normalcy,

acceptance, assimilation."

Yeah. I mean, it's everything from how

I've chosen to wear my

hair to how I speak when I am

in particular settings. And I grew up

with a mother who by no

means she was like, "There's

no slang in this house. There's nothing

of that nature

happening." She was an educator,

so she was very serious about the way

that I spoke. And I bring that forth with

me, but in terms of,

it's not even so much rebelling because I

reject that word today as

an adult. I'm simply being.

This is who I am. Because when we use

language, we also have to be careful

about the connotations

that it brings in. So if someone hears me

say, "Oh, Danielle's

rebellious," that's how those

black women are. They're aggressive.

They're very emotional women overall. And

I reject all of those

things because I would go a step further

and say, "We all have a

streak of that in us, every last

human being." So when men come at women

and they're like, "Oh, women

shouldn't be leaders because

they're emotional," I'd actually say men

are quite emotional, except their

emotions don't come out as

tears in a lot of cases. They come out as

anger. They come out as

war. They come out as strife.

And so we are all emotional beings. It's

just how it manifests looks

different. And you do not get

to tell me that in my full humanity that

I can be less human because I

cannot have emotions in this

moment. Yeah, I love that sort of

rephrasing. And you're right, we need to

do a better job of how we

position what we're experiencing or what

we're witnessing or how we

describe things. Because we

are potentially adding to the pile on of

what is... And when I've

heard you talk, it's like it's the

assumptions too. Your curiosity overcomes

the assumptions. And

that's a reminder for someone

like me who's like, "Oh, we were talking

about this earlier." And I

was like, "Bless Danielle."

Because I can't help but fall into making

an assumption about

somebody who has an opinion

that is not an opinion I agree with. And

specifically, we were talking about how

you launched your podcast. Yeah. Or not

necessarily the podcast, but the TEDx

talk. And I don't know if that had

something to do with that. So tell us a

little bit about that

TEDx. How did you pick that topic? Sure.

And if you don't mind, I'd

love to talk about the podcast

for a second also, because all of these I

think are strings that

are attached to one another.

So the genesis for Unpacked Culture

Chronicles was the fact that I was

working with a number of

clients at the time, and we were doing

cultural competence

assessments. And in this process,

one of the goals for them ultimately is

to get to know people, to

go on a journey of both self-

discovery, but also discovering more

about different cultural

groups. And one of the things

that I kept hearing from my clients is

like, "We love this work. This is

amazing. We want to lean

into this." And I don't know how to start

the conversation. I

don't know what I can say to

this person. I'm afraid of stepping on

their toes or offending them. And in my

mind, I'm like, "Well,

what do you mean?" I was like, "Just go

talk to them." And they're

like, "Well, I can't talk to

this person because they're Muslim or

they're gay or they're this." And I'm

like, "Well, they're

people. Just get out there and go talk to

them." But I realized in

that moment, I also have a

particular bias because if you can't tell

already, I am a chatterbox.

I love to talk. And so in my

just normal way of being, again, I love

to talk to people, which

means if you were online at the

grocery store or on the pickup line,

picking my kid up from school, I'm going

to start a conversation

with you because why wouldn't I? And so

that's sort of where that

came from. I heard the fact

that people were curious, but what they

were afraid to do was

take those next steps. And so

that's the genesis of the podcast, but

then the TEDx is very

closely linked to that for me,

because as I was thinking about where we

run into challenges when

it comes to being curious

as individuals. And I would say the

biggest enemy of curiosity is certainty.

You are correct. Yeah, you're correct. We

make these assumptions, "Oh,

I know this is what they're

thinking. I know this is who they are."

There's no room for

growth because you already know

everything. Right. Give me another aha

moment. Right. Simple,

very simple, but okay. Piper's

experiencing something. I love it. See,

and that is what motivates

me more than anything is like

when you see the light bulb go on for

people and Piper, I will tell you in a

heartbeat, I still have

these moments for myself because I teach

this, right? And I coach

around these issues. And every

once in a while I hear myself say

something and I'm like, "Ooh, boy, oh

boy, let's sit with that

for a second." Because I'm like, "Do I

believe that? And where

on earth did it come from?"

Right. Right. Right. So we are talking

about how you're using media,

so we also want to talk about

how this idea of inclusion, and I think

in your spirit and who you

are, you're not discussing it

as a way of... inclusion is more of like,

"Hey, we're all human" sort

of approach. But part of it

is too, the way you grew up, who you are

really does matter. And in

your business, I think there's

a little bit more legitimacy that comes

from you and your voice and your

experience. What's been

like the rewarding part of what you're

doing in your business because of

inclusion or diversity?

I think the rewarding part is sort of

two-fold. Obviously, I

enjoy moving organizations and

individuals forward, right? So being able

to impact how they're

thinking. And as I say this,

I want to be really clear, like my

agenda, and we all have an agenda, is not

necessarily to tell you

what to think, but my agenda is most

certainly to get you to

think. Where you land is up to you.

Okay, but one of the challenges I have,

and this kind of goes

back to that pause again,

is I don't think we're taking enough time

to be introspective,

to observe situations,

and just wonder whether it is out loud or

to ourselves, how do I

make sense of this moment?

And so I'm super curious, what was the

last "aha" moment that

you heard from your clients,

that you're just like, "Exhale, yes, good

for you." I was talking about, this

happened pretty recently,

like within the last two weeks, I was

talking about the difference

between being transactional

and being transformational in

relationships. So much of our

society is built around like,

"I provide this product for you, you pay

me for this, like we go

about our separate ways."

And it happens even when cash is not

exchanged, right? Like, "I'm going to

come on your podcast,

and then you're going to come on my

podcast, and we're going to exchange in

that way." That feels

so transactional to me. Right.

Transformation means we get to be in

relationship together,

in right relationship, and lead to a much

deeper impact because we

are in said relationship

together, because it's not about this

one-off moment in which we

have done some business together

or made some connection. It's about this

greater impact that we can

have in the world. And so as I

was explaining this idea to the client, I

could see them like

literally because we were on Zoom,

and it's their eyes are ping pong and

back and forth, and I could

tell that they were thinking

deeply about this. And the person said at

the end, they said,

"Yeah, I feel like because of

capitalism, I have been taught only to be

transactional. And I

really have to go home

and think about what this means if I want

to transform the

relationships, the impact that I'm

having within communities." Interesting.

Yeah. Because even like

when you say the simple

thing of pause, it's like I'm, you know,

I'm going to be analyzing this for the

rest of the day. But

you know, there is a thing about work.

And every once in a while

when letting in or pausing,

it's like even saying the word pause,

it's like, well, from a business

perspective, it's like, no,

I can't afford the time I can't afford.

And that as a human being

in society, it's like, well,

you're asking me to take a vacation. But

really the pause is,

yeah, it's so simple.

Let's connect and pause.

Taking that moment of I'm with this

person in a maybe in a

business setting or whatever,

but it always has to be transactional.

You know, it's like, it

has to be. There's a

reason we're here and like to even I'm

just getting to the thing of like

sometimes just that moment of

a person turning and just going in a in a

business setting going,

"Hey, how are you doing today?"

Instead of it being like what you're

supposed to say, that's what you're

supposed to say. It's like,

oh my God, you're trying to be authentic

with me right now.

Trying to connect. You actually want to know and it's

like, is that appropriate? Right. I

actually have commented on

that before is that we say things

at times that are so root. You don't even

mean it. I'm walking the

dog down the street. Hey,

I see my neighbor. How are you doing? I

don't really care how he's

doing in that moment. And

so like, I am guilty of this also. But in

those moments where I am

trying to transform something

into a bigger, you know, again,

relationship impact, etc., your answers

actually matter to me.

And when I think back on my personal, you

know, my experiences, some

of the moments where I know

someone was listening, I know that our

relationship is elevating, is when they

can tell me something

that they remember from our last

conversation. Oh, I heard your daughter's

going off to college. Did

she, you know, did she select a school

just yet? How's that new

business venture that you planned

on launching? Like, how's that going for

you? These are moments that

demonstrate to me not only

authenticity, but that you genuinely

care. We encounter a great

many people in our lives,

and especially as entrepreneurs. I talk

to literally like hundreds

of people within a month.

So to remember those level of details

about people, like that speaks volumes.

It does. It does. It totally does.

Because, you know, again, it's that

pause. It's that pause in

that relational exchange or the, you

know, the exchange.

And the honest curiosity.

I'm going to go back to the other word of

curious. It's like, it's

like, no, I'm being an honest,

curious person and asking because I am

curious. And it's like

reminding to be a human. Yes.

And so let's pivot a little bit to about

like your podcast. I love

that, you know, you're using media.

Explain how you're using other media,

because you consume a lot.

But, you know, where are you,

where else are you showing up in media?

This is something I've been working on.

I am a little camera shy is what I would

say. As much of a talker

as I am, I don't necessarily

like to be on center stage all the time.

But what I have been doing

is I pushed myself beyond

any hesitation that I had. So the podcast

went from originally in

season one, it was only audio.

And that is because I often joke again

that like, I don't have a, you know,

people say an inside

voice. Like my face demonstrates exactly

what I'm thinking. And

I'm so hard to be on camera

because I'm like, I'm waiting for that

person to say something I

think is completely nuts.

And you're going to know the second they

say it because my

face will demonstrate it.

But I did take the leap because I think

this is also authentic. If I feel

something and you see

it on my face, that's still who I am.

Right. Exactly. We can talk about

it, but it's real. And you're

experiencing it in real time with me. So

we went from audio to

video. So now it is not just

everywhere that you can find, you know,

podcasts on streaming

platforms, but I've also brought it

to YouTube and my team and I, they're

actually pushing me really

hard to develop more media

clips. You know, so I'm, I'm often on

stages. I'm often doing workshops. Like

where am I taking my

camera? Am I bringing a crew with me to

make sure that I'm capturing

it? And, you know, I, I still

need to get better at this. This is not

necessarily my area where I

feel like I fully shine all the

time, but as I'm getting more comfortable

with it, I'm expanding, I

would say probably each month

a little bit more than I did the month

before. Yeah. And, and,

you know, I think what's

interesting too about the podcast is, you

know, there's a video

component and, you know, for me,

I, I, you know, I've tuned in a few times

and I find it really, you

know, it seems like you really

genuinely have this great relationship

with whoever's across the

table from you. And, and it feels

like I'm just listening to friends, you

know, talk about, you

know, their own experiences,

their own lives and sharing, not an

exchange. It's, it's a real connection.

And so that's what I

really like about your podcast. You know,

what if you, you know, felt

like you needed to have this

podcast other than like your team saying,

you need to do this, you know, what was

the, the real reason

for letting other people see this

exchange. So, and this goes

back to that story that I shared

before, right? So everyone was saying, we

want to have these

conversations. We don't know how. And

I'm like, I love to talk. I also don't

get it right all the time. And I wanted

people to see that too.

There are several episodes where I royally

put my foot in my mouth

as I'm talking to people.

And what I can say to them real time and

even behind the scenes is

I am, you know, I'm sorry

that I got that wrong or, or how would

you prefer to me, you know,

prefer for me to refer to you,

whatever it is, these are legitimate

conversations. And I appreciate that you

uplifted that it feels

like I'm talking to friends. Some of the

folks that have been on

the podcast with me, I have

had established relationships for a

while. So we are more friendly. Although

some of them are still

just, you know, just colleagues that I

may have just encountered

for the first time, you know,

a couple of weeks ago. But the point

being is I just want to be able to talk

to you, right? And I,

one of the things I think that's

important in terms of leading a solid

conversation in this

way, whether it is being recorded or

otherwise, is are you genuine in your

desire to get to know

someone else? Right? You can feel in a

second if someone's like,

they ask you an inappropriate

question and they don't really care to

even hear the answer. It's

more like, I gotcha. And I don't

want to do that. I don't want to put

people on the spot where they're

uncomfortable. Like, I want you

to be comfortable. I will edit out things

that don't make sense for

you to have in there. And I

talk about this pretty freely because the

point being, you have come

and you have given a gift to

both me and to my audience of sharing of

yourself. So if we're talking

transaction, I just run it

exactly as it is. If we're talking

transformational, I want to make sure

you're good. Were you comfortable?

I love that. You know, I, you know, I

think about the fact that,

you know, you're having these

conversations in these, in this honest,

authentic way, because you

want to, you want to model

something. And I also want to shout out

the fact that, you know,

there's probably other people

doing it, but I find it interesting that

as a black professional, that

you're out there doing this.

And it has a different tone for me. It

has a different place for

curiosity for me. And it helps

me lean into your own curiosity as you're

having these

conversations outside of, you know,

you, my comfort zone, right? Might be

talking about something I

might not be comfortable

bringing up, but, you know, modeling

that. So I really appreciate that. You

know, how do you think

it rings for other audience? What's been

some of the feedback you've gotten?

People have been enjoying it. Similar to

what you said, folks say

often that it feels like I'm just

sitting around the kitchen table. And to

me, that is one of the best compliments

that I can ever get.

When I think about a podcaster that I

watch on YouTube, she

actually, she never has guests.

It's just her. And she invites you in.

She's like, welcome over to my

house. Get yourself some tea.

There's some fresh pie I just baked on

the, you know, on the table.

And it has, you know, that she

is storytelling in this moment, but it is

the environment that

she's creating. And to me,

when I think about culture work, you

know, tying this back into

my job, I want to create these

moments. We curate them. Anyone can do

this if we, again, are

intentional. What do you want the

outcome to be? I want my guests to feel

comfortable. Excellent. And I feel like

you've achieved that.

And so do you see this podcast running

for a while yet? Have you

exhausted your list yet?

Well, I'll give you sort of breaking

news, because I am finishing up season

two right now. We've

already recorded it. So our final

episodes will be airing

shortly. And in season three,

my plan was to, and I'll just back this

up a little bit. In season

one, we talked about just

curiosity period. What does it mean to be

curious when it comes to

culture? In the second season,

we focus more on what culture looks like

at work and beyond. Okay,

so in my mind, season three,

I was like, oh, we've covered some of the

easier, gentler topics. We're

going to dive into something

hard. We're going to talk about

polarization. Wow. It was a

fantastic idea. It still is a

fantastic idea. I stand behind that. And

it has become so

difficult at this exact moment

to talk about this topic. And I'll tell

you why. Like, I've now

recorded, there are three guests

that I've recorded with for season three

already. And though they

knew what the theme was,

and I wove questions in, you can feel

people edging up to the

line and then backing off,

or wanting to talk about something

different. And someone

finally said to me, and I really

appreciated this. This was after the

camera stopped rolling, but they turned

around and they said,

you know, this is a moment where it's

really hard because there

are people who, and I've

experienced this as well, there are

people who just don't know

what to say, right? So you want

to bridge across these divides. I don't

know what to say. So I come

from that world. I get that.

Like, that's a lot of the clients that I

serve. But on the flip

side of this, there are also

people in this particular moment who no

longer want to bridge

across divides. And that is

challenging for me as an individual

because of just how I process the world.

But I also very much

appreciate and understand this

perspective. They're not wanting to

bridge because what they're saying

is there are people that are opposed to

who I am as a human being,

right? Like there is nothing to

bridge. When you tell me as a black

person, a black woman in this country,

that there's no such thing

as racism, right? That my gender doesn't

affect my ability to be

successful in a workplace and

there's no such thing as a glass ceiling.

If you tell someone who

is queer, "You are no longer

allowed to get married in this country.

You shouldn't

fundamentally have the same rights

as other people." This is not a moment

where there is, I wonder if

we can find some common ground.

And so for that reason, like I stand

firmly with them in that

because there are certain things.

Again, I told you convincing you is not

my ministry. However, I

will draw a line in the

sand because there are certain things

that are going to

impact people's ways of life.

My blackness, my womanness, queerness,

etc., it does not affect

anyone else. This is just how I

walk through life, right? Like that's it.

It does not affect you.

And yet you're telling me

my way of being is problematic to you.

And so where do we go when it comes to

bridging the divides?

And so I think where I've landed with

this is I will never ask

another person to cross a line

that feels like it is actually harmful to

them. To me, there is no

bridging in cases where your

humanity, your safety physically,

emotionally, etc., is being

challenged in that moment.

But I am looking still, I have not given

up on bridging across

divides. What I'm thinking more

acutely about now is how we pick the

areas where it may not be as risky for

you. Because we're not

good at bridging across divides, even in

our families, we're not good at this.

It's true. Very true.

Right. So how do you pick something

that's a little closer

to home, a little safer

before you decide like, hey, I'm going to

take on the entire

political establishment?

I'm like, good luck.

You might want to start with something a

little easier first.

This is I mean, this curiosity here is

like, how do you find these,

you know, these bridging the

divides in the business setting? Because

it has to come up at some

point in how the culture is

for an organization. And how are you

dealing with those

conversations after having practiced

with your podcast and not really

practice, but the

experience in your podcast?

You know, it comes up in a lot of

different ways. There is, you know, even

if I'm stepping back from

the big sea of culture, which we think

about, you know, like, so if we're

talking about like race,

ethnicity, those types of things, even in

an organization, you

know, I see upstairs,

downstairs phenomenon happening all the

time. That is a subculture.

Because what that means is,

you know, you have the people who are

deemed the professionals within an

organization versus those

that are in support positions, right? And

it is forgotten in the

moment that everyone that is on

this team is also working to keep this,

you know, company floating, but that's

not how it's viewed.

So there's a lot of bridging

conversations that we have to do in that

way to help people understand

the more complete picture. There are

right now, there's a lot of divides when

it comes to political

ideologies, right? And so how do we

handle things? One person wants to

talk about, you know, the

war that's going on in the Middle East

and put a press release about how they

either support or do

not support this. The next person's like,

we can't do that. And so, you know, I'm

finding that we have

to do this gentle dance constantly, even

down to how we talk about our client

base. So I had a very

interesting conversation with someone the

other day. So I'm a

former fundraiser. I've been an

executive director for a nonprofit in the

past. And I was talking to

a client about the fact that

they were writing grants. And they were

really just upset with how

the the funder was asking

them to write. And I have similarly had

this experience myself.

Now I feel like I'm much

prepared to deal with this. And where the

conundrum sort of came up is

that the funder wanted them

to write about all the ways that this

community was hurting,

damaged, etc., to justify the need

for this money. Right? So it almost came

down to if, you know, like,

let let us say that I'll just

give you an arbitrary example. But like,

let's say this is an

organization that provides toys to

children who, you know, who have

incarcerated families. Okay, so it's

pretty clear that there's

a need there. They may not have the adult

support at home in the

traditional sense that, you know,

many other children have. But the funder

almost wanted them to go

to the extent where they're

saying like, Oh, look at these poor kids.

They're disheveled. They're

playing in the street with

sticks and rocks, because those are the

only toys that they can have. And I'm

like, Wait a minute,

like, we don't have to disparage

communities to paint a picture of why

need is still available.

Right? And so when I talk about bridging

divides, part of this is educational

also, because you have

to be able to stand up and simply say to

the funder, like, I really

appreciate this opportunity.

And can we talk about the language that

we're using, my job is not

to cause more harm to these

communities. Yes, I mean, like, being

able to tell these stories in