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410 - How to Build Confident, Competent Early Career Vets
30th July 2026 • The Cone of Shame Veterinary Podcast • Dr. Andy Roark
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Building Confident New Grad Vets: Mentorship, Psychological Safety, and Onboarding That Works

Dr. Jason Szumski, DVM, joins Dr. Andy Roark to tackle a problem every hospital feels, new grads want to do great medicine, but they are often scared of mistakes, lawsuits, and being “on their own” before they are ready. They dig into why mentorship is the top priority for vet students, what strong onboarding actually looks like (psychological safety, structured but flexible timelines, and honest expectations that new grads are an investment), and how to build real autonomy without ripping away the security blanket. Jason shares practical mentor and mentee strategies, including having new doctors bring a plan, getting hands-on in surgery, using curiosity instead of confrontation, and reinforcing confidence by revisiting past wins. Gang, let’s get into this episode.

Keywords: veterinary mentorship, new graduate veterinarian, veterinary onboarding, clinical confidence.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasonszumski (LinkedIn)

Dr. Jason Szumski is an entrepreneurial practicing veterinarian, speaker, and educator focused on helping veterinarians work more efficiently and sustainably in clinical practice. He graduated from the University of Illinois College of Veterinary Medicine in 2023, where he served as both class president and president of the Veterinary Business Management Association (VBMA). After spending three years in a fast-paced suburban Chicago emergency hospital, he transitioned into his current role as Medical Director of a five-doctor general practice, giving him experience in both high-volume ER medicine and long-term primary care leadership. He is also the co-founder of VetSOAP, an AI-powered workflow tool used by thousands of veterinarians daily to streamline medical records, improve communication, and help teams get home on time. Jason regularly speaks on topics including new graduate development, AI in veterinary medicine, and clinical efficiency, with a focus on building practical systems that help doctors move from chaos to confidence in practice.

Transcripts

Speaker:

Woo.

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Welcome everybody to the Kone

of Shame Veterinary podcast.

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I am your host, Dr.

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Andy Roy Geis.

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I got a great episode

today with my friend Dr.

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Jason s Sunki.

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he is a, a fairly new graduate, veterinary

and he's three years out, but he's

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already become a medical director.

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He is a co-founder of

a technology company.

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He's lecturing and fetch, and,

and the guy is, he is a go-getter.

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He is a future star and a high flyer,

and I wanted to talk to him about

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building confident new graduates

and essentially this is about.

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What are, what are young

doctors looking for?

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When they enter practice and how do

we support them to get them up working

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confidently, comfortably, and, and to

make that happen as quickly as possible.

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So anyway, that's what we get in today.

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This is a great episode.

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If you are a young doctor, a, a vet

student, if you are a mentor, if you

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have a hospital and you're gonna be

onboarding, new, doctors and you want

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to make them successful, I think these

things totally apply to onboarding

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new technician graduates as well.

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And so in.

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Anyway, there's, there's just a

lot here about what people are kind

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of looking for in their job, and

I think it's really interesting.

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I hope you guys are

gonna like this episode.

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Let's get into it.

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Kelsey Beth Carpenter: This is your show.

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We're glad you're here.

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We want to help you in

your veterinary career.

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Welcome to the Cone of Shame with Dr.

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Andy Roark.

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dr--andy-roark-_1_06-04-2026_142901:

Welcome to the podcast, Dr.

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Jason Sumsky.

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How are you, my friend?

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jason-szumski--dvm--he-him-_1_06-04-2026_132901:

Hey, I'm doing well.

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Thanks for inviting me on.

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I'm excited to, to chat about

things that get us both fired up

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dr--andy-roark-_1_06-04-2026_142901: Yeah.

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jason-szumski--dvm--he-him-_1_06-04-2026_132901:

this'll, this'll be a fun conversation

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dr--andy-roark-_1_06-04-2026_142901:

Absolutely.

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You are…

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I, I always love having you on and

around, and you are somebody that I,

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I, I talk to just every now and then

just to catch up with, with life.

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ever since you did an externship and

you came and lived in my basement

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jason-szumski--dvm--he-him-_1_06-04-2026_132901:

Yeah.

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dr--andy-roark-_1_06-04-2026_142901:

and were integrated into the

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family for a couple of weeks,

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jason-szumski--dvm--he-him-_1_06-04-2026_132901:

Yeah, that's one of my big fun

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facts is I lived in Andy Roark's

basement for two weeks and, got to

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see so much of, of how he operates.

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And so it's-- we just have

a cool relationship like

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dr--andy-roark-_1_06-04-2026_142901:

Oh, man

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jason-szumski--dvm--he-him-_1_06-04-2026_132901:

I'm just so grateful that when I pestered

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you as a second and third-year student,

you opened up your arms to me and, and let

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dr--andy-roark-_1_06-04-2026_142901:

you look,

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jason-szumski--dvm--he-him-_1_06-04-2026_132901:

in.

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dr--andy-roark-_1_06-04-2026_142901: you

made me look like a genius because, you

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know, you were like this vet student, and

you were really pestering me and basically

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just wore me down, is, is the truth.

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And, and then you go on, you come out, you

graduate, you're a full-time veterinarian.

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You're the co-founder of Vet Soap,

which is a digital scribe company,

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and so you're doing tech stuff.

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You just came back from Fetch

Nashville, where you were speaking now.

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You are the medical director

at Bartlett Animal Hospital.

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you're not quite three years out of vet

school yet, and this is where you are.

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And so I look really, I look really good.

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I don't wanna say that all of your success

comes from the two weeks in my basement,

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but I'm also saying we can't rule it out.

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We, it just

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jason-szumski--dvm--he-him-_1_06-04-2026_132901:

I learned a lot.

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dr--andy-roark-_1_06-04-2026_142901:

So, so here's, here's what I

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wanna talk to you, here's what I

wanna talk to you, about today.

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And so, so you've been, you've

been out, you were doing some

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lectures, you were doing…

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You do a number of different lectures.

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You do, you definitely do some, AI stuff,

technology stuff, but you talk a lot

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about the new graduate experience, and

you're doing a lot of, of new graduate

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mentorship in your, in your current

role as a medical director and in

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full-time practice and things like that.

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And I wrote a piece recently,

about how we need more maverick

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GPs, and we need them now.

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And the reason that I say that,

Jason, is, when I look at the

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profession, there, there's a number

of things that are sort of happening.

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One of them is, access to care.

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And, the cost of care is going up And

referral costs, you know, the cost of

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specialty care is, is also going up.

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It's going up significantly.

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And, I, I'm not criticizing

our emergency practices.

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You know, I lo- I love

the emergency practice.

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They allow us to have n-

you know, free time off.

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I'm not criticizing the specialists.

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I love the specialists.

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I love working with the specialists.

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And also, like, we need to be realistic

that, you know, $6,000, $8,000, those

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are big bills for, for pet owners.

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And one of the ways to help sort of keep

care affordable and, and get pets actual

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care is to have GPs that are comfortable

and confident, you know, working with,

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with more advanced cases, whether those

are internal medicine cases, those are

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advanced dermatology cases, those are

behavior cases, or especially those are,

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those are surgery cases, things like that.

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You know, and so, so there's

that access to care component.

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There's also the idea that, I, I love that

we're leveraging our technicians more.

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I think, this is not a comment of

good or bad, but I, I do suspect that

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the VPAs are coming, the mid-level

practitioners are going to be a

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thing that are gonna be a part of our

profession in the next five to 10 years.

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I don't know.

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I'm not saying I'm rooting for

that, but I'm saying I, I wouldn't,

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I wouldn't bet, bet against it.

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And I can, I can see the

possibility of GPs losing some

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of the wellness work that we do.

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And also we have AI and, I think the

AI is a great tool, but I think that

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every profession should be thinking

now and saying, you know, "What, what

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do I do that AI can't do or won't do?

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What is, what is my value

in a world where AI exists?"

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And so anyway, in taking a look

at that and saying wellness care,

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you know, may be moving out of the

hands of GPs a little bit in the

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future, whether we like it or not.

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And then also we've got AI and

we've got, you know, these other

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things that are taking the load.

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Where do we move as, as general

practitioners in a way that's gonna

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keep us viable and keep us valuable?

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And so for both of those things,

the access to care and also, like,

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reading the tea leaves, where do

we wanna go with our skill sets?

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In both of those things, we

need to be more confident.

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We need to be more, more,

more willing to try things.

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And we have to communicate, "Hey,

you know, there's a specialist.

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I recommend you go see them.

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If that's not viable, I can work

it up here, but I want you to know

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that specialty care is, is probably

your best chance at, at full

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resolution and, and X, Y, and Z."

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So we need-- So there's that.

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And so anyway, I'm very interested

in how do we create this confidence?

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How do we support especially

young veterinarians?

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'Cause I think that that's where it comes

from, and I hear a lot of people who are

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saying, you know, "Young veterinarians

are not confident," or they come out and

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they're, they're worried about being sued.

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They don't feel like they're,

they're comfortable or confident

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in their clinical skills.

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You know, all of these things.

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And again, a lot of it's anecdotal.

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I don't like to buy into that, you know,

as this old man of like, "Oh, kids today."

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But I, but I do…

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You know, I sort of jab those questions.

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So anyway, I've laid a lot

of these things out here.

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Let's start with overall kind

of validation of the scenery.

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So you're, you're three

years out of vet school.

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You know, your colleagues

are, are in the trenches.

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You're in the trenches.

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You're mentoring the next

generation of sort of graduates

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coming out and things like that.

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What do you, do, like, do you see

what I, do you see my concern?

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I guess I would say that.

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I- is there, in your opinion,

is there reason to be concerned

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about the confidence of young

veterinarians, speaking just as a

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big group, or is this all overblown?

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jason-szumski--dvm--he-him-_1_06-04-2026_132901:

Yeah.

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Let me take you back to my,

my junior year of vet school.

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I sent out a survey, over 400 vet students

across the country, and I just asked them,

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like, "What are you most concerned about?

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What's your goal for your first job?"

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of veterinarians and soon-to-be

veterinarians said they needed

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mentorship as their number one thing.

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Number one thing.

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That's over salary, benefits, location,

practice size, and, and I think that

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comes back right to your point, is that

we are coming out not as confident,

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and we know how important a, a good

mentor is for our clinical development.

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And so I think when I s- when I

talk-- I do a lot of talking about,

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like, how do we make good clinical

mentors, from the side of the mentee.

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I think that comes from a, a fear

that we're going to misdiagnose

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something, a fear that, you know,

we, we haven't seen all the cases.

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You know, we've, we've gone through school

and worked up cases from a specialist.

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Like for me, when I was in internal

medicine, I worked up every single

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nosebleed that walked into that

hospital over the next two weeks.

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I didn't do anything with kidneys.

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I didn't do anything with the stomach.

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I didn't do anything o-o-otherwise

internally, but I know how

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to work up a good nosebleed.

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And so a- then there's a nosebleed that

comes into my clinic, I'm ready for it.

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dr--andy-roark-_1_06-04-2026_142901:

You're pushing people out of the way

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jason-szumski--dvm--he-him-_1_06-04-2026_132901:

s- b- oh, yeah, I got the nosebleeds.

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But anything else that comes in,

you know, w- sometimes we just

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haven't had that experience yet.

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And I think, I think being

sued is, is a very valid fear.

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so I think it's important that we

talk about, like, like, real reasons

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that people get sued, you know, right?

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It's not, it's not necessarily

misdiagnosing or bad medicine.

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It's c- most of the time

communication, right?

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But it's definitely a fear of,

new graduates coming out and, and

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how do we build that confidence?

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It's something I've put a lot of

thought into over the last three years.

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You know, starting as a, as a new

graduate in a 24/7 ER, I picked that

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hospital purposefully so that it would

overwhelm me, so that I could learn

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a ton over the first couple years.

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And I'll tell you, my first case I

ever saw, you know, it was a PUPD

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Yorkie, comes in as a 11-year-old

female spade PUPD Yorkie.

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My mentor gave that to me as an easy case.

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She thought it was gonna be a UTI.

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We were gonna give

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dr--andy-roark-_1_06-04-2026_142901: Yeah

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jason-szumski--dvm--he-him-_1_06-04-2026_132901:

and get it out of here, and

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it was gonna be a good start.

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Well, when I went to go get the

cysto, I put the ultrasound on, I

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saw the bladder, fanned a little

cranially, I saw a second bladder.

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And so then right away I'm like,

"Well, I didn't learn this in school."

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I came out, I was in the top

5% of my vet school class.

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I was the class president.

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I felt like I was gonna be ready to go,

and my first case I ever got stumped me.

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It was a stump py- no pun intended.

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It was a stump pyometra.

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and so I, I quickly learned, like,

there's a lot of things that we haven't

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seen that we, that we need to learn.

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and so building that confidence is

something that's really, really important.

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and it starts the second you graduate.

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It starts in vet school, getting good

mentors, getting a good experience

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in, in vet school, which isn't

the case for everyone, but it does

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start as soon as you come out.

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So your fear is, or your theory is

about fear and confidence is real,

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dr--andy-roark-_1_06-04-2026_142901: So

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jason-szumski--dvm--he-him-_1_06-04-2026_132901:

we have to work through.

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dr--andy-roark-_1_06-04-2026_142901:

so let's start talking about

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what it, what it, what it looks

like when we work through it.

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So you've been through this recently

and you've had a lot of colleagues

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who have gone through this sort

of, that, they just, the onboarding

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process in, in the fairly recent past.

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Jason, what, what does a good onboarding

for a new graduate veterinarian look like?

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Yeah

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jason-szumski--dvm--he-him-_1_06-04-2026_132901:

psychological safety is so

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important, for the mentor and for

the hospital manager to understand.

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I was one of those people that I didn't

wanna make a mistake early on, so I asked

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hundreds of questions over the first

couple of weeks, and my mentor knew that

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there was no question that, that I was

gonna ask that came from a bad place.

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And so we were very safe having

conversations about the basic

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stuff from medicine to, to numbers,

to money, to euthanasias, right?

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We had that-- we had those talks.

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, Structured but flexible deadlines

I think are very, very valuable.

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You know, week two, we'd

like you to be here.

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By six months, we'd like you to

be hitting, production, right?

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And I think that's another thing that,

that we should talk about is, is, is

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new grads are an investment, right?

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It's not-- They're not gonna come out

day one and be making production, and

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especially with the current salaries.

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I mean, the 2025 AVMA economic report

says that the average new graduate

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comes out making about $125,000, and

they're not gonna produce $125,000

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in that first couple of months.

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So it is an investment, and your, your

hospital will lose a little bit of money,

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but it's so worth it when three, six, 12

months out, they're getting confident,

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they're getting competent, they're

building up these clients, they're now

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making production for your hospital.

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But it's definitely an investment upfront

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dr--andy-roark-_1_06-04-2026_142901: Yeah.

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It's, it's funny, I have a friend who,

who's helping out one of the vet schools

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doing sort of mock interviews so that

the vet students can sort of practice

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what their interview skills would be.

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And, and so my friend was there, and

the student that they were interviewing,

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you know, had, had come in and, and

my friend said, you know, "Okay,

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let's, let's talk about the salary

and, and what we're doing and, and

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how long is this going to be for,"

and, and all of these sorts of things.

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And the vet student said, "Is it

possible that we could just reassess in

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six months and see where we're doing?"

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And, and my friend said yes in the

moment, and then after it was over,

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my friend said, " how strong of a

negotiation place do you think you're

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gonna be when you're six months in?"

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You know?

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And it's probably gonna be some

of the lowest, you know, the,

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the lowest production that you

have in your career, right?

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Like, the chances that you're gonna

come in, and six months after you're

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in, you don't have a clientele.

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You d- Like, you, it takes time

to build those relationships.

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You're, you're just getting confident.

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to your point about this being an

investment, it's, it's something that

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everybody should be open about, of,

you know, hey, this person is going

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to be of limited producing value.

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But also, I really do think that

everybody sh- That's why I think

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everybody should get clear about that.

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And it's just, it's, it's one thing to

say, "Hey, you know, we don't expect

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people to come in and start seeing a

ton of cases and, and, you know, being

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profitable for the hospital right away."

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But also, I don't think it's wrong to

have that expectation that at some point

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this veterinarian is going to, like,

be a net positive for the hospital.

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Like, I, I don't think

that that's fantasy.

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I think it's important to sort of have

those types of conversations about

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how, how do we, how do we get there?

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And so let me ask you that.

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Like, what are the best, approaches

that you have seen for how we get there?

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And so when I'm trying to, to get

my veterinarian up and feeling

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confident and working independently,

and, and so there's, there's

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sort of two pieces to this.

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The first one is, I guess, being able

to, to be a, a positive, you know,

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revenue generator for the practice.

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But the other one is to feel comfortable

working autonomously, and just to

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say, "Hey, I can make these calls,"

or even, "Hey, I'm comfortable if

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I'm the only vet in the building."

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People don't talk a lot about that, but

that is part of the developmental cycle

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of a veterinarian, of like, how, how long

is it until you're essentially running

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kind of your own technician team, you

know, regardless of, of sort of what

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the financial, you know, output is?

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jason-szumski--dvm--he-him-_1_06-04-2026_132901:

Yeah.

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I guess one of my, one of my

favorite things to think about

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too is, is practicing good

medicine costs money, right?

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So I think new graduates sometimes come

out and maybe they're a little overzealous

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with the recommendations on, you know,

a dog comes in that ate some bad food.

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in school, a dog that's vomiting,

you take X-rays and you do blood

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work on every dog that walks in

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dr--andy-roark-_1_06-04-2026_142901: Yeah

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jason-szumski--dvm--he-him-_1_06-04-2026_132901:

Does everyone have $1,200 to

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spend on their dog that they

know ate some raw chicken?

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not, but that's hard to, to wrap my--

to wrap our heads around is, well, what

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if that dog did get into a sock, right?

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What if that dog is Addisonian, right?

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Like, what, what if this, what if this

has been going on for a while and they

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just noticed it because they ate the food?

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But, you know, i-it looks like a duck, it

quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck.

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Sometimes it's not a duck,

but a lot of the times it is.

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So from a, from a confidence standpoint,

I think, I think one is, surgical

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confidence is gonna be really important.

316

:

And to get surgical confidence, your new

graduate has to be doing the surgeries.

317

:

Their hands have to be in the procedure.

318

:

They have to be the one

that's tying off the pedicle.

319

:

They have to be the one that's

suturing the body closed.

320

:

There's only so much experience

that you can get from being in

321

:

the surgical suite and watching.

322

:

At some point, they have to be

the one that's confident in the

323

:

knot that they're tying, right?

324

:

Confident that the knot that

they bury is gonna stay buried.

325

:

one of the clinics that I, I

work at, their new graduate there

326

:

is just not there surgically.

327

:

And when I watch their mentor and

the mentee, the mentor would just go

328

:

in and swoop in and do it for them.

329

:

dr--andy-roark-_1_06-04-2026_142901: Yeah

330

:

jason-szumski--dvm--he-him-_1_06-04-2026_132901:

I think to a point, that's helpful.

331

:

but at some point, they need

to get their hands dirty.

332

:

So from a surgical perspective, actually

doing it, and then from a medical

333

:

perspective, the way that I encourage

new grads to talk to their mentors

334

:

is to come with them with a plan.

335

:

So

336

:

dr--andy-roark-_1_06-04-2026_142901: Yeah

337

:

jason-szumski--dvm--he-him-_1_06-04-2026_132901:

"I don't know what to do."

338

:

Come with them with a plan.

339

:

"Here's what I think is going on.

340

:

Here's what I would like to do.

341

:

Is there anything else that you

can think of or any other thoughts

342

:

that you'd like to add to this?"

343

:

And a lot of times the answer is no.

344

:

And then after you hear this, you know,

10, 15, 20 times throughout the week,

345

:

you know that you're generating good

differential lists, you know that you're

346

:

practicing good medicine, and maybe

you don't need to ask that as much.

347

:

So to get someone on their own, I think

a lot of times the new graduates do have

348

:

to challenge themselves to come up to

their mentors with the idea of a plan.

349

:

What do you want to do?

350

:

Not, "I don't know what to do."

351

:

dr--andy-roark-_1_06-04-2026_142901: Yeah.

352

:

No, I, I like, I like that a lot of,

you, you tell me what you wanna do, and

353

:

then we- and then we'll talk about it.

354

:

That, that makes sense.

355

:

You mentioned earlier the importance

of sort of psychological safety when

356

:

you have a new graduate, coming in and

working, and then I think you gave a

357

:

really good example of what that means

when you went ahead and said, you

358

:

know, it, I know that the experienced

doctors know that questions coming from

359

:

me are, are coming from a good place.

360

:

They're not challenging.

361

:

You know, they're, they're truly trying

to understand and improve myself.

362

:

How do you g- how do you get there, Jason?

363

:

Like, so when you've got a new graduate

coming in, how do you sort of set those

364

:

standards so that they feel comfortable

asking you questions and the other

365

:

vets aren't gonna feel like this is

not, well, that's not how we did it

366

:

in, That's not how we did it at Penn

kind of s- kind of situation, you know?

367

:

jason-szumski--dvm--he-him-_1_06-04-2026_132901:

Yeah.

368

:

dr--andy-roark-_1_06-04-2026_142901:

how do you get there?

369

:

jason-szumski--dvm--he-him-_1_06-04-2026_132901:

I think it works two ways.

370

:

One, well, start from

the mentee side, right?

371

:

So I think you have to go in knowing

that not everything you do is going to

372

:

be how you practiced it at Penn, how

you practiced it at Cornell, right?

373

:

There's going to be some differences

in, what care you can provide.

374

:

One of my favorite cases that I like

to give to fourth-year vet students

375

:

at Illinois is you have this dog

that comes in with all these issues.

376

:

What do you wanna, what

do you wanna run, right?

377

:

And then, oh, by the way, they have $125.

378

:

dr--andy-roark-_1_06-04-2026_142901: Yeah.

379

:

jason-szumski--dvm--he-him-_1_06-04-2026_132901:

And that really gets your mind

380

:

thinking in a different way, where you

381

:

dr--andy-roark-_1_06-04-2026_142901: Sure

382

:

jason-szumski--dvm--he-him-_1_06-04-2026_132901:

like, what's important, and that's

383

:

not something that we get in school.

384

:

In school, they're at the specialist,

and they're ready to spend money because

385

:

they go- they wanna figure out the issue.

386

:

dr--andy-roark-_1_06-04-2026_142901: Yeah

387

:

jason-szumski--dvm--he-him-_1_06-04-2026_132901:

that's not always the case.

388

:

so I, I think that's an important mindset

to have, is that, you know, things

389

:

are gonna be a little bit different.

390

:

So from the mentee side, you

have to be accepting that things

391

:

might be a little bit different.

392

:

Maybe the older veterinarian

does throw a little bit too

393

:

much metronidazole around, and

394

:

dr--andy-roark-_1_06-04-2026_142901: Yeah

395

:

jason-szumski--dvm--he-him-_1_06-04-2026_132901:

for them because they

396

:

know it works, right?

397

:

And that doesn't mean that you have to

g- go at them and say, "You know what?

398

:

My internist said that we should

never prescribe metronidazole for

399

:

diarrhea unless the animal's septic."

400

:

dr--andy-roark-_1_06-04-2026_142901: Yeah

401

:

jason-szumski--dvm--he-him-_1_06-04-2026_132901:

that-- those conversations can

402

:

happen in a constructive way.

403

:

Like, "Tell me why you

think that this happens."

404

:

And then the same thing

goes from the other side.

405

:

W- one of the first things I did when I

moved in my new clinic was I got this new

406

:

fiber supplement that I'm in love with,

407

:

dr--andy-roark-_1_06-04-2026_142901: Yeah

408

:

jason-szumski--dvm--he-him-_1_06-04-2026_132901:

diarrhea, right?

409

:

And, and so I to- went to the older

doctors there and I said, "Hey, I

410

:

love this supplement for diarrhea.

411

:

You're more than welcome to use

it if you'd like, but there's no

412

:

hard feelings if you have something

that you think works for diarrhea.

413

:

Great."

414

:

And so then they came back to me and

they said, "Okay, I wanna try your

415

:

dr--andy-roark-_1_06-04-2026_142901: Sure

416

:

jason-szumski--dvm--he-him-_1_06-04-2026_132901:

but let me tell you, if it doesn't

417

:

work, I'm gonna go back to my old ways."

418

:

Great.

419

:

good communication,

420

:

dr--andy-roark-_1_06-04-2026_142901: Yeah

421

:

jason-szumski--dvm--he-him-_1_06-04-2026_132901:

sure that…

422

:

And I think assuming good intent is

generally important in the workplace

423

:

when you're talking about medicine,

424

:

dr--andy-roark-_1_06-04-2026_142901: Yeah

425

:

jason-szumski--dvm--he-him-_1_06-04-2026_132901:

The-- that does-- medicine

426

:

does not come from a bad place.

427

:

You never-- A lot of

people-- There may be some.

428

:

Most people do not try to

practice bad medicine, right?

429

:

And so if you can assume good

intent, I think you can understand.

430

:

And then I love the question, "Why did…

431

:

walk me through your process.

432

:

Walk me through why you did the way that

you did, so that I can know," right?

433

:

And, I think that's really important,

I mean, to know why they're doing

434

:

it their way, to understand that, so

that especially when you see their

435

:

rechecks, if they're out of the

office, you can say, "Oh yeah, I know

436

:

that, he loves doing things this way,

437

:

dr--andy-roark-_1_06-04-2026_142901: Yeah

438

:

jason-szumski--dvm--he-him-_1_06-04-2026_132901:

we can continue doing things this

439

:

way or we can try it this way

and see if this works," right?

440

:

I, I think, I think it's definitely

two-sided, and I think it has

441

:

to come from a good place.

442

:

'Cause if you start to get confrontational

about medicine, that's the probably

443

:

the number one reason that I've

seen that people get defensive,

444

:

dr--andy-roark-_1_06-04-2026_142901:

Oh yeah

445

:

jason-szumski--dvm--he-him-_1_06-04-2026_132901:

is, is questioning their medicine.

446

:

dr--andy-roark-_1_06-04-2026_142901:

No, I, I think you're, I

447

:

think you're totally right.

448

:

I think curiosity is, is, is an

absolute sort of a- absolute must.

449

:

It's, it's the best

approach to, to take it in.

450

:

It's funny, I've been reading about

this, type of training, and it's like

451

:

sort of across, you know, all, you know,

all vocations, but it's, it's called

452

:

a CLA or constraints-led approach.

453

:

And, when people use constraints-led

approach, the idea is that you make people

454

:

play ridiculously hard games so that when

they actually have to deal with these

455

:

things in real life, it's probably gonna

be easier than what they did in training.

456

:

And so it's just funny, it makes me think

about, you know, I had a, a dog today

457

:

that came in for vomiting, and also the

dog is 10 years old and very diabetic.

458

:

And I was like, "Oh, man."

459

:

Usually this would just be a regular,

you know, th- they were kind of like, "I

460

:

think he may have gotten into something."

461

:

Well, he might have gotten into

something, but also he's 10 years

462

:

old and he's got this massive medical

record and, and it's, and it's hard.

463

:

And if you said to me, "You have

$125," it was like that's really,

464

:

that's really playing on hard mode.

465

:

And so anyway, for the constraints-led

approach, you know, one of the examples

466

:

was they had this, WNBA player who

was working with one of these coaches

467

:

and, and the coach would have three,

three guys ready to defend this person

468

:

every time they brought the ball

down, and the only outcome of the

469

:

game for her was she had to score.

470

:

So it was three against one.

471

:

And, and if, if she, if she

shot and she missed, she lost.

472

:

If she turned the ball over, she lost.

473

:

If any of these things happened

that were bad, th- she lost.

474

:

And I do think that there's something

really good and interesting about

475

:

that in trying to come up with the

cases and challenges and asking

476

:

questions, say, "Well, what would

you do if this was the case?

477

:

And what would you do

if this is the case?"

478

:

But I think we have to

make sure we tell people.

479

:

And so when I use constraints-led

approach in working with like medical

480

:

leaders, the first thing I say is,

"Look, this is meant to be very hard."

481

:

And sometimes in life you do everything

right and you still get a bad outcome.

482

:

And we're going to do this and

we're-- know we're gonna play on

483

:

hard mode and it's probably not

gonna go well or there's gonna be

484

:

some things that we're gonna miss.

485

:

That's okay.

486

:

That's the point.

487

:

And just sort of explain, I'm, I'm

intentionally making this difficult

488

:

because if you can handle this,

then it's not-- most things are

489

:

not gonna be a problem at all.

490

:

And so anyway, I think that, that, that

type of, challenging in a gentle way

491

:

to, you know, to, to, to push people so

that, so that what's in the exam room is

492

:

actually usually much, much, much easier

than what they've already experienced.

493

:

I, I think that that's important.

494

:

jason-szumski--dvm--he-him-_1_06-04-2026_132901:

Yep.

495

:

And I'll add one more thing to that

is a lot of new graduates, they don't

496

:

want you to do the case for them,

497

:

dr--andy-roark-_1_06-04-2026_142901: Yes

498

:

jason-szumski--dvm--he-him-_1_06-04-2026_132901:

but just be a little security

499

:

blanket for them, right?

500

:

dr--andy-roark-_1_06-04-2026_142901: Yeah

501

:

jason-szumski--dvm--he-him-_1_06-04-2026_132901:

them.

502

:

They want to practice good medicine.

503

:

They want to be a good surgeon, but

they need to know that the support is

504

:

there behind the scenes if they need it

505

:

dr--andy-roark-_1_06-04-2026_142901:

Have you had an experience or have

506

:

you gotten any insight on the best

approaches if you have someone who,

507

:

maybe is holding on a little bit

too tightly to the security blanket?

508

:

You know what I mean?

509

:

I think we all wanna do a good

job, and we all want to feel safe,

510

:

and we all want to feel validated.

511

:

And also, at some point we say,

"Hey, look," part of, part of

512

:

moving towards that autonomy I was

talking about earlier is to say,

513

:

"You don't need me for this case."

514

:

You know?

515

:

Like, like, not, not everything

needs to get signed off on.

516

:

And I have seen some vets who've

really struggled with this and will

517

:

say, "This person's two, two and a

half years out, and they just need

518

:

someone to look over their shoulder

and approve everything they do."

519

:

And again, that's, know, when you're

six months out, that's fine, and

520

:

a- again, everybody's different and

I, I don't want anybody to feel,

521

:

to feel judged o- on a blanket.

522

:

At some point, you know, part

of mentoring and developing is

523

:

weaning the person off of you.

524

:

H- how do you, how do you do that?

525

:

jason-szumski--dvm--he-him-_1_06-04-2026_132901:

Yeah, I think you, I think you hit the

526

:

nail on the head there, that it's…

527

:

They have to get weaned

off at, at some point.

528

:

And so I think part of it is confidence.

529

:

So one of my favorite things to do

is I like to pull old cases that

530

:

they walked through by themselves

that they did a great job with.

531

:

dr--andy-roark-_1_06-04-2026_142901: Yeah.

532

:

jason-szumski--dvm--he-him-_1_06-04-2026_132901:

So pull their old

533

:

dr--andy-roark-_1_06-04-2026_142901: Nice

534

:

jason-szumski--dvm--he-him-_1_06-04-2026_132901:

up their notes and say,

535

:

"Hey, here's a case.

536

:

I saw that you did this.

537

:

This was a challenging case.

538

:

You worked it up great.

539

:

You did an awesome job.

540

:

Keep doing that."

541

:

So that they have that confidence

in the back of their head that

542

:

they, "Oh yeah, I did do that case

by myself, and it worked out okay."

543

:

so that's one of my

favorite techniques to do.

544

:

and it worked really well for me when my

mentor would do it with me, especially…

545

:

And it kinda works the other way too,

where if they had a challenging case

546

:

that they couldn't find a resolution

to, "Here's, here's the case.

547

:

Here's what you did.

548

:

why did you walk through it this way?"

549

:

They can bring, bring you through their

thought process, and then you could say,

550

:

I've seen some ki- cases like this before.

551

:

Here's how I've walked

through them as well."

552

:

So I it kinda works both ways, but

I, I love that approach, and I think

553

:

part of it is, is the new graduate

has to have confidence in themselves

554

:

that, they can do it themselves.

555

:

And it will take time.

556

:

It will take different amounts of time.

557

:

You know, there's people that come

out that are, that are maverick

558

:

right off the rip, and, and they're

ready to see 100 cases in their first

559

:

week, and, and there's some people

that's gonna take some more time.

560

:

I think it's important to be

flexible and understanding of that.

561

:

But you're right, building up

that confidence is essential.

562

:

And, and a lot of times, by year

three, you're doing a pretty good job.

563

:

dr--andy-roark-_1_06-04-2026_142901: Yeah.

564

:

jason-szumski--dvm--he-him-_1_06-04-2026_132901:

to know it

565

:

dr--andy-roark-_1_06-04-2026_142901: Yeah.

566

:

No, I, I like that a lot.

567

:

I th- I think you're spot on.

568

:

Dr.

569

:

Jason Sumski, thanks for being here

and talking through this with me.

570

:

Where can people find you online?

571

:

Where can they keep up with you?

572

:

jason-szumski--dvm--he-him-_1_06-04-2026_132901:

Yeah.

573

:

My favorite social media, I'm gonna…

574

:

I guess this is m- not ev-

not very Zillennial of me.

575

:

I'm a Gen Zs and Millennial combo.

576

:

LinkedIn is my favorite way to connect.

577

:

not a big Instagram or TikTok or

Facebook guy, but LinkedIn, @JasonSumsky.

578

:

my digital AI company is VetSOAP.

579

:

We're pretty active on Instagram,

TikTok, and LinkedIn as well.

580

:

but I, I love connecting on LinkedIn.

581

:

I love seeing people's

curiosity posted on LinkedIn.

582

:

I love interacting with

people on LinkedIn.

583

:

so that's, that's my, that's

my favorite way to connect

584

:

dr--andy-roark-_1_06-04-2026_142901:

Outstanding.

585

:

Well, I'll put a link in the show notes.

586

:

Thanks for being here, Jason.

587

:

Guys, thanks for tuning in, everybody.

588

:

Take care of yourselves, gang.

589

:

We'll talk to you later

590

:

jason-szumski--dvm--he-him-_1_06-04-2026_132901:

Thanks

591

:

Speaker: And that's what I got guys.

592

:

Thanks for being here.

593

:

Thanks to Jason for

making time for us gang.

594

:

Take care of yourselves, everybody.

595

:

I'll talk to you later on.

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