More pastors are taking coaching courses and loving the impact on their congregation. Watch this pivot podcast episode to learn what coaching is, how it’s different from other models of leadership training and why it can be so impactful for church leaders.

In today’s pivot podcast episode, we are interviewing Faith+Lead’s Director of Coaching, Dawn Alitz. Here’s what we mean by coaching: the practice of listening, helping people name their core challenges, discovering solutions to those challenges, and implementing specific practices and action steps to move forward. Jesus often led by asking good questions. Coaching is one form of leading by asking questions. What would it look like if more of your faith leadership took on this approach? How might leaders in the church benefit from coaching? Coaching classes, leadership coaching, and training church leaders all benefit churches and leaders today. Join us as we explore new models for loving and leading our communities.

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Dawn Alitz: Learning coaching skills does two really important things. One, it helps people listen better, and it also teaches the coach to stay out of the way. And this is super important for discipleship right now. Part of it is really listening to where God might already be moving in a person's life. And you can't do that if you are listening to that person to see if they would make the next best Sunday school teacher.

Alicia Granholm: Today on our show: the church model that most of us grew up with requires many things from leaders. This model isn't working as well as it used to, and instead of doubling down on patterns that produce diminishing results, what if we explored new models for loving and leading our people? Jesus often led by asking good questions. Coaching is one form of leading by asking questions. Now, when I mention coaching, I don't know what kind of conjures up in your mind. But when we talk about coaching, here's what we mean by it: The practice of listening, helping people name their core challenges, discover solutions to those challenges, and implement specific practices and action steps to move forward. What would it look like if more of your faith leadership took on this approach? How might Christian leaders benefit from coaching? That's what we will explore with our guest in today's episode. Hello everyone. I'm Alicia Granholm.

Dwight Zscheile: And I'm Dwight Zscheile. Welcome to the Pivot podcast, where we explore how to follow God into a faithful future by equipping all God's people to love and lead in the way of Jesus. We are excited to welcome as our guest, the Reverend Doctor Dawn Alitz, who serves as our Director of Coaching here at Faith +Lead. Dawn is an ELCA pastor who has extensive congregational leadership experience, a PhD in pastoral care and advanced training and certification as a coach and spiritual director. Dawn has worked with many pastors over the years to help them lead faithfully, effectively, and sustainably in today's challenging ministry environment. Welcome, Dawn.

Dawn Alitz: I'm so excited to be here with the two of you today.

Alicia Granholm: We're so happy to have you.

Dwight Zscheile: Well, so, Dawn, let's start at the beginning. What is coaching and how is it different from some other models of training or leadership that church leaders might be familiar with?

Dawn Alitz: Yeah, that's a great question because it's one I get all the time. It's typically confused with three other things, and that is consulting, pastoral care, or spiritual direction. And I'm going to start with those three because it's easier to tell about coaching after I do. So in consulting, an expert comes in and will come into your setting and will sort of tell you the best practices and how things have been working. And then they typically leave, and you are left to do whatever you want to do with that information.

Dwight Zscheile: Or not

Alicia Granholm: Or not. Right.

Dawn Alitz: And with pastoral care and spiritual direction, it's about making a space to acknowledge God's presence. Um, and, and in pastoral care, often it's in a time of pain. Spiritual direction, it can be pain or just regular life. And all of those have a really important place in ministry. And the lines are pretty gray. Um, what I'm going to give here is more seems black and white, but it isn't in real life. All of those things involve an expert creating space or giving information. Coaching is different because both people come to the table as experts. The coach comes as an expert in holding space, in asking powerful questions, in helping design plans. And the client or the person being coached comes in as being an expert in their context, in their people, in their community. And so when you enter coaching, the coach comes alongside you, asks really good questions, asks what you already know, maybe what you need to learn, and then helps you design a plan that you are then going to carry out. And it's really, really a collegial process.

Alicia Granholm: I love that. It's really helpful hearing the distinction, um, of the three and, um, I'm really curious. I kind of just want to follow up on that for a second. Um, when have you, especially thinking about coaching for church leaders specifically, um, are there some stories you can share or particular times in ministry where church leaders might find it particularly helpful, uh, to have a coach or to be coached?

Dawn Alitz: Yeah. Especially now when things are changing so quickly. It's super helpful to have a coach, primarily because I don't know that we really have best practices in this very strange time. The things that we thought worked, um, often we knew that they already weren't quite working, but we were still trying to make them work, um, work very differently in the different contexts and with different types of leaders. And so coaching takes that all into account, not by saying that we're the expert, but in saying we know how to come alongside you and assist. Um, and that's been an important change, I think. In the past, we've really wanted to call upon the expert and say, just tell me how to solve this problem. Um, um, and I've been I've led several conferences where people have come to hear experts say how to do things, and a lot of times what I would hear afterward would be: when I got home, I took that binder and looked at it and realized that none of this would work in my setting, and I would put it up on a shelf. Coaching takes that away because it's saying: What do you think God is calling to you in this space? And what gifts have you already been given, now how do you move forward?

Alicia Granholm: Mhm mhm. Yeah I love that. Um so in addition to being a coach yourself you also train coaches. One super interesting thing that you've mentioned is that you've been having more and more, uh, pastors showing up not only to be coached, but also to receive training in coaching. We're curious as to why you think that might be.

Dawn Alitz: Yeah. Coaching, learning coaching skills does two really important things. One, it helps people listen better. And it also teaches the coach to stay out of the way. And this is super important for discipleship right now. Part of it is really listening to where God might already be moving in a person's life. And you can't do that if you are listening to that person to see if they would make the next best Sunday school teacher. Instead, you have to listen to them, really know what's on their heart and mind, and see where God might be inviting them. And then as a as a coach, you're going to help them decide how best to move into that ministry. And as a part of that, if you've been in coach training, you're going to learn that you don't have control over how they do that. And so you find yourself as a pastor coach pulling yourself out of the equation, staying sort of focused, maybe more on the spiritual director role or faith formation role, and allowing yourself to let the disciple be set free.

Dwight Zscheile: So, Dawn, you've worked with a lot of pastors on this kind of shift. Are there some stories or examples you can share with us of how this has made a difference in how they've led?

Dawn Alitz: Yeah, I'm going to share two stories from my background only because in coaching we like to keep things nice and confidential. And I know I have permission to to share these stories. So the first is when I was first starting to learn all of this, and I was in children, youth and family ministry, and I was having coffee with a young mom or a mom with young kids. And she came to me and she said, I know that what you want me to do at this coffee date is to say that I'll be a Sunday school teacher. And she goes, but my heart just says no. And I said, well, tell me about what's on your heart. Because I was new in coaching classes, right? Learning about good questions. And, um, I learned from that conversation that what she had was a heart for walking through medical situations with people, helping them fill out paperwork, helping them understand what the doctors were saying. And I set her free to do that work and found someone else who had a heart for children, youth and family to do the Sunday school piece. Um, and I've since left that congregation and lost track of her. But the last I saw, she was working through a degree in psychology and walking with people through medical illness. So it was just a beautiful time of really setting people free. And another piece that maybe shows the other side of it, of release was in a I was working with another team of people brand new to the congregation, so people were kind of walking in one at a time and introducing themselves to me. And over the course of three days, four people walked into my office and said that they had something to do with children with special needs and their concerns about how that might be for ministry. Early on in my ministry, I would have taken that as a sign of from God that I should go out and learn all I can about children with special needs and create a program and develop something that would help these children that I've been now made more aware of in our congregation. Um, having perhaps a little more coaching wisdom behind me, what I realized is what my role was, was to bring these four people together and ask really good questions about what they hoped for for these children, what they thought the church might have the ability to do, who we could partner with. And there was a lovely ministry that developed that had very little to do with me, other than my facilitation of a few initial meetings. And so that was a place where I found myself leading very differently, because I pulled myself out of the equation because I didn't need to be there.

Dwight Zscheile: So I'd love to follow up on that a little bit because, um, you know, on the one hand, for a leader who is, you know, used to being the one to kind of call the shots and give the direction, there's a certain way in which this may feel kind of disempowering, like, I'm really turning this over. I don't know the answers. Right. My job is to ask the questions, but it's also it sounds very empowering for those who are on the receiving end of this. And I wonder if you can think with us a little more about that right now, because we're seeing, you know, a lot of ministry leaders are tired and exhausted, partly maybe because they feel like they have to have all the answers, rather than knowing how to ask the questions in ways that people can, you know, bring the answers, discern the answers, and then engage.

Dawn Alitz: Yeah. I think that well, first of all, we we know that this is true. There's several research houses out there, whether it's Barna or Harvard Institute of Religion and Research that is showing us that that these leaders are under a great deal of stress. And in a way, what they are doing is like sort of doubling down on trying to control things more or trying to do things more. Um, for many congregations, that is what they will actually approve of. They will give people kudos or their leaders kudos for doing all this work. The problem is, is that even though that seems to be what everybody wants, it's really what nobody wants because it's really hard to see God's activity in that. And so as I'm working with leaders to help them think about why did they initially go into ministry? How did they feel God's call on their lives? Why did they they go through this process of seminary and ordination, and most of it comes back to being a spiritual leader. It goes back to Bible study. Um, and so when I set them free to do that, um, there's usually some joy, even though there's also a sense of loss, of doing some of the things that are maybe more high profile or more quickly affirmed by the people in their congregation.

Alicia Granholm: Dawn, I'm curious if, um, some of that also might have to do with expectations, right? Like expectations that we either have of ourselves as ministry leaders or that we believe our congregation has for us, or in fact, that our congregation does have for us? Um, and I'm curious if you can share a little bit about how coaching might be helpful. Um, as part of shifting expectations.

Dawn Alitz: Yeah. Well, first you have to find out if the expectations are real, which is one thing that coaching will probably help you find out. Um, if you say, well, my people expect me to do A, B, and C, one of my questions, if I might very well be, how do you know? Mhm. Um, who could you ask to find out if that's true? Um, and we actually Dwight and I were working with a group of pastors and we asked these very questions, and it turned out that the pastor's expectations of themselves was way high, like over your head high. And when we we found out that when we talked to the people in their congregations, it was a high bar, but not nearly as high as the pastors had for themselves. And so part of those expectations are, in fact, self self-inflicted, self-imposed. Um, and it's also true that what we're talking about here is a change from how pastors have often acted and and responded to their role in the past. And so there will have to be some congregational adjustment into how they think their pastors should work.

Alicia Granholm: Yeah, yeah. Um, so right now you're also doing some research and reflecting, uh, about how ministry leaders can reimagine their leadership and we're curious if you could share some of with us about what you're learning right now.

Dawn Alitz: I am really interested in this, this pivot four that we have been talking about, which is the the move from clergy led, lay supported to lay led, clergy supported. And it's right at this intersection. I think we've kind of been dancing around already in this podcast. Is there there are pieces of being a pastor that leaders will have to either learn anew or learn to set aside so that the lay leaders in their midst can learn how to take on new tasks with joy and realizing the calling of Jesus upon their lives and their ministries, and learn to take that on with confidence and feeling supported. So that little intersection there is just a lovely space for coaching that I'm trying to explore a little bit more during my sabbatical work.

Alicia Granholm: Yeah. Can you share a little bit about, um, maybe even just how you're going about your sabbatical research?

Dawn Alitz: Yeah, a couple of pieces I'm doing is I'm working with a couple of congregations that are currently without a pastor and have reached out to me and, and have said in various ways, either they are newly have new knowledge that they are not going to have a pastor. And so but they want to keep going and they they want to say, how can we be a different congregation for whoever's coming next? And I'm also working with one that says, we aren't sure we're ever going to have a full time pastor again, but we're not sure we need one and what that looks like. And so I'm spending quite a bit of time working with some congregational lay leaders or lay leaders who are doing other things to hear what gives them life, where they need to hear, how they need to be supported, and differently to really take on these tasks of church. Um, and then at the same time, I get to teach a lot of these coaching courses and teaching leaders to maybe let go a little bit. And think about how they might lead differently.

Dwight Zscheile: Yeah. I want to unpack that a little bit more. I'm thinking about kind of just some of the inherited models of ministry that that, you know, you step into a congregation and, and some of that's just there, you know, and it may have been with the past, the previous pastor who kind of did everything often, you know, lay people in congregations have sort of had their wrists slapped if if they've tried to claim leadership or make decisions themselves. And, and so to create an environment in which the whole community is truly empowered to work out of their own giftedness in with some kind of integrated, shared sense of direction, right? So it's not anarchy, right? Um, so say more, you know, about how how that works. Like, so if, if, um, if I'm a pastor who wants to maybe move more into this model of leading where my job is primarily to ask good questions, to create environments in which people can answer those questions faithfully, right? Not superficially or whatever, but really be able to discern them and feel supported in doing that, I think, which is very important. Um, what are some steps I might take or what what might that look like in practice?

Dawn Alitz: Yeah, I'm going to add one more on to that before I answer the question. And that is I do think it's important for a pastor to set vision. And so and a theological vision that that God and, and has a claim on this congregation and is inviting them into a future and has given them resources and the ability to go toward that future. It's not a stingy God. We have an abundant God. So God isn't calling this congregation to do something they can't do. So there is a vision setting that I think is really important. And then having said that, the congregation has to be willing to look at that vision, that sort of that's out on the horizon and take stock of of what gifts do we have? And like, what are the vocations of the people within the congregation? What are the histories? To be curious. And then those people in the congregation have to feel equipped and given permission to actually move forward on the path to that that vision point without having it drawn out step by step by the leader. But checking in and making sure that we are headed toward the same horizon point. Yeah. Does that answer your question?

Dwight Zscheile: Yeah it does. And let's just maybe kind of go a little deeper into that, right? Because, um, part of of what is involved in this is communal, the practice of communal discernment. Right? In some congregations, the expectation is the leader will just bring a vision kind of dictated and try to align everyone into it. And here's where we're going. But this kind of approach to leading is, you know, assuming more that, you know, the Holy Spirit's at work among the whole people of God. And leaders are really entrusted with this sacred, sacred work of interpreting, harvesting, cultivating, if you will, that shared vision.

Dawn Alitz: Yes.

Dwight Zscheile: Um, you know, in relationship with people really through a lot of good listening and, and then being able to interpret it, right, to articulate it, um, in a way that connects the community and energizes them and, and helps them sort of, you know, be faithful, I think, to where God's calling them. Um, and so, so if we think about coaching not just in a kind of 1 to 1, you know, ministry context where you're meeting with someone, but, but really more thinking of it, maybe in a board meeting or in a, um, you know, a team meeting or where you're working with staff or what might that look like?

Dawn Alitz: Yeah, I love working with teams because there's so many different, uh, so many different things in the room, um, and so many different gifts in the room. And it does it really does start to look a little more like facilitation, because you're making sure that everyone's voice is heard, you're helping bring all of their experiences and all of their noticings into the space, rather than just one person's or a few people who often speak up loudly. So there is a sense that as the leader pastor coach in that space, you are responsible for making sure that the voices are heard. Um, no one's forced to talk if they really don't want to, but it could be that the person that almost always stays silent has a key insight into what's going on in a particular area. And if they never speak up, we never know. And then we never know how a church can move forward. But this is really slow work. Um, I think the one thing that we've discovered in our work, and I definitely have, as I've moved out and started working with congregations, um, is that because congregations have been working so much through their pastoral leadership that there is a long tending process to build in the curiosity, to build in the ability to look at Scripture, the ability to walk into a community center and wonder, what's God already up to in this space? And so um, and, and of course in, in councils and task forces, people change over all the time. So just about the time that you have one group trained to read Scripture together and to look at the community together, half the people go off the task force. And so it's a slow process. Um, but leaders who see this as their calling know that they're in it for the long haul. And they they stay with their people. And after a couple of turnovers. Um, someone's going to come back on saying, I like how this how this worked. I found myself paying more attention to my daughter's school. I found myself paying more attention at work. And, um, when people are empowered to join in with God, it's a whole different experience than if you're asking them to sign their name on a line, to give their free time and their extra resources to a project. Um, a lot of people that I know don't feel like they have a lot of extra free time and extra funding right now, and so tapping into that sense of call and joining God and what God's doing is such an incredibly different feeling and invitation than signing your name up on a sheet.

Alicia Granholm: One of the, um, processes that we will often work with congregations around is faithful innovation. And, um, one of the things that we've learned along the way of, of helping people really, uh, learn to better learn to listen better to God, each other and themselves, right. And wonder and discover anew what God might be up to. And in inviting us them into, um, is that coaching is kind of a vital element of that, uh, shift and of that process. Can you say a little bit more about why we've learned, like what? What is it that we've learned that's really highlighted the critical nature of coaching in that process?

Dawn Alitz: Yeah, I'm going to laugh because a colleague of mine calls it coaching is kind of the braces to any change. Braces like what you put on your teeth. And that is because, um, when we start to make changes in the church, you know, we have this end end point in our mind. We think it's going to be great, but there's some pain points along the way. Someone's not going to be happy or something's just going to feel awkward because it's new. And our first intuition is to pull back to what we know and what's comfortable. Um, to stop doing whatever it is that's causing the pain. And the reality is that all change is going to include some grief. Mhm. Um, and maybe some pain points. Um, and if we continually just go back to what's comfortable, we'll never be able to make the changes that we need, and we'll never really be listening to God to help us through whatever it is that we need to go through. So a coach comes alongside and helps you think in that moment of pain, is this pain that's good? Is it leading to something? Is it birthing something new? Or is it pain that's killing something? And you just have to stop. It's too hot. It's it's a it's telling you to to stop and to do something different. And that's a point that a lot of leaders actually have really good instincts for, if they will allow themselves to actually sit and ask the question, a lot of times they just react quickly to the pain and just want to pull back.

Alicia Granholm: Yeah. Um, Dwight, you recently had a good quote about the difference between reaction and response.

Dwight Zscheile: Yeah. So, um, well, so following and and leading, like if you are just reacting as a leader to what's going on, you're not leading, you're actually following because you're just responding, right. Um, and, and so I think that's, that's where what I hear in what you're saying, Dawn, is this kind of dance between, uh, you know, as a leader, allowing things to ripen, things to kind of emerge out of the community and very intentionally, um, creating the practices and the spaces where that can take place faithfully and people can keep connected, recognizing that there's a destabilizing dimension to that.

Dwight Zscheile: And many organizations or any human community, you know, will tend to revert to the previous status quo. By nature, it's very human homeostasis, the technical word for that. Right? Yeah. Um, and and yet, if we're going to actually make progress on the real challenges facing us, we need to to work through the pain points and what's often, you know, it sounds like the best way to do that as a leader is to be able to stand with people. I hear you saying and and really invite them to name, okay, here's actually where we're going. Rather than either default to the leader is going to be the scapegoat, who're going to fix it for us or just solve it all for us, but really we're going to own this or we're going to work through it together. And that's a very, I think, a powerful way to lead, but very different. Yes.

Dawn Alitz: Yes. And I'll add one more term on, on here because I think we use it a lot with faith lead and with coaching, but it's not as widely used in the wider world, and that is "discernment" and thinking about what is it that we're talking about when it's discernment. And actually, one of my non-religious coaching classes came up with this a couple of weeks ago, and I was thrilled. And that is that discernment is when you are really thinking about an invitation forward as an invitation and not doing something out of fear or coercement . And and I love that idea that God is the one that's inviting us, perhaps through a hard time. Um, just because God calls us doesn't mean that it's going to be easy and fluffy and you're going to feel great. God does ask us to do hard things. Um, but if we feel that it's an invitation and that we aren't alone, then that's a different kind of feeling than if we feel like we have to do it because we're afraid, or that we're going to fail, or that something's going to disappear and and so we want to aim for that discernment feeling as we go to respond. Mm.

Alicia Granholm: I love that. Um, we've talked a little bit about, uh, you know, church leaders, um, kind of honing in and really learning, um, some better coaching skills. Uh, you've also shared with us about how when, um, you know, clergy or pastors are going into new congregations, the value that coaching in a more of a one on one setting, um, often can play in those instances, particularly with newer pastors. I'm wondering if you can share a little bit about kind of what you've seen in, in some of the struggles and the areas where coaching can really be valuable.

Dawn Alitz: Yes, um, you know, we're in seminary. We get partially trained in being a pastor. We we do not leave fully formed at the end. And many times as we go into our first, maybe even second, maybe even third congregation, there's a part of us that wants to please and and adapt ourselves as leaders to that congregation. The problem with that is not all congregations are healthy, and not all congregations know like how they should be led. It's a little bit like if we always let our children shape us as parents, rather than holding some identity as adults in the process, right? And so what coaching does as it, um, allows a pastor to enter a congregation but have some self differentiation on who they are as a leader, what their gifts are, what their skills are, what their expectations are, and not that it's totally separate from the congregation, but not to be fully formed by that congregation. That there is, again, almost like coaching itself, a coming together and a co-development of what that congregation will now be a collaboration , rather than the congregation brings in, a pastor forms them to do everything they want that pastor to do. Um, um, and then if they don't perform right, then they send them out. So it's a different relationship. I think it's a much healthier relationship.

Alicia Granholm: Yeah.

Dwight Zscheile: Um.

Dwight Zscheile: So, Dawn, if our listeners or viewers are interested in learning more about coaching as a way of leading or and actually being coached themselves, what would you recommend as next steps?

Dawn Alitz: Yeah. Well, first I'll say that there are a lot of opportunities out there with coaches. A lot of judicatories are starting some, some coaching, uh, movements within their judicatory. So it's not just through us. However, I'm super proud of the work that we've done at Faith +lead with coaching. So if people would like to learn more about that, um, we often, uh, on a almost all the time are running a coaching skills course that people can join and learn something. Some of those coaching skills. We also have the opportunity for people to tap in, and I will help match them with a coach that fits their needs and their circumstances. And then, um, if you are in our membership, there are a few extra things in there and that is you get two free coaching sessions. So you just need to reach out and redeem that coupon and I'll match you up and you can find out what coaching is all about. Or we have a monthly group coaching session where you can kind of come in. And if you're a little shy about bringing your own thing forward, that maybe you can listen in on somebody else's piece. And finally, if you just want to sort of listen in and gain some coaching skills and not pay anything, we have something called Coaching Connection, which is where we come together once a month. You need to go on our learning lab and sign up and come to a, uh, our monthly gathering or watch it later. And that's a space where we learn little coaching skills at a time. But you can keep sharpening those skills and learn it without taking a class. So those are a few things we do. You can reach those if you go to Faith lead. Org slash coaching or if you reach out to Faith lead at Luther. Edu.

Dwight Zscheile: Dawn, thank you so much for being with us on the show today. It was so great having you.

Dawn Alitz: It's been fun being in the same room with you guys again.

Alicia Granholm: We love it. Um, and thank you all for being with us today for another episode of the Pivot podcast. We hope that you found it inspiring and encouraging. If you enjoyed this episode, here are a few ways you can actually help us: first, like and subscribe. If you're joining us on YouTube. Second, head on over to Apple Podcasts and leave us a review. It really does help. And then finally, the best compliment that you could give us would be to share this podcast episode with a friend. Until next time. This is Alicia Granholm and Dwight Zscheile signing off. See you next week.

Faith+Lead: The Pivot podcast is a production of Luther Seminary's Faith lead. Faith lead is an ecosystem of theological resources and training designed to equip Christian disciples and leaders to follow God into a faithful future. Learn more at Faithlead.org.