In this episode, Amy is joined by fellow communications strategist John Gibbons to talk about the hidden friction points that quietly shape the visitor experience and often determine whether someone becomes a repeat visitor or a one-time guest.

They dig into what museums can learn from the business world about retention, why small details matter more than you think, and how to create an experience that keeps people coming back (and bringing a friend).

Links from the Episode:

• Find John on LinkedIn and follow Good Morning Cape Cod on Instagram.
• The Metropolitan Museum of Art
• Louisa May Alcott’s Orchard House
• Tenement Museum

More Free Resources for Museums:

• Getting Visitors Through Your Museum’s Doors: Building Connection in a Noisy World ebook
• Museum Planning Calendar
• Museum Metrics Template

About the host:

Amy Kehs is a brand strategist and communications expert for museums. She has owned Kehs Communications since 2000 and has worked for the most renowned and well-loved museums in Washington, D.C. Her goal is to ensure that museums thrive into the next century and she hopes people will come to love museums as much as she does. Her proven process sets up proactive communication habits for museums, cultivating relationships with visitors who will want to return and bring a friend. Want to talk more? Click this link to book a call.

Today I am joined by my friend Johnny Gibbons, and we are talking

2

about hidden friction points,

killing your museum's retention,

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and some ideas on how to fix that.

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Let's get started.

5

. Hello, and welcome to the

Love My Museum podcast.

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I'm your host, Amy Kehs,

and I love museums.

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I'm also a brand strategist and

communications expert for museums,

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and I am here to help you turn your

first time visitors into lifelong fans.

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Today, I am joined by my dear friend,

John Gibbons, a communication strategist

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with more than 25 years of experience

leading campaigns for organizations like

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the US Department of Agriculture, the

Smithsonian, Mass Audubon, and Old Navy.

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He's worked on everything from major

exhibition launches to national

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initiatives and crisis communications.

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He is also a dear friend,

and he loves museums, too.

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We visit them all the time, and

over the years we've compared notes,

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shared experiences, and talks a lot

about what works and what doesn't.

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Welcome to the show, Johnny.

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Johnny: Thank you, and thank you

for that very kind introduction.

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Aw.

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When you were, when you're talking about

it, I did realize that when we do get

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together, which is probably three, four

times a year there's almost always a

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museum on our agenda to go visit together,

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Amy: yeah.

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Yes, definitely.

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And we, actually just yesterday we

were talking about one thing that

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businesses understand really well, which

is that it's far easier to get someone

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to come back than it is to convince

someone new to walk through the door.

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But museums don't always operate that way,

so I thought it would be great to share

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our thoughts and opinions, because we talk

about this a lot, and talk about why are

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people not coming back to your museum?

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And those, I call them hidden friction

points that quietly can be getting in

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the way of creating those lifelong fans.

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when you think about all of the museums

that you've visited, let's first talk

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about, maybe some small things that

made you want to come back or not.

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Johnny: I was very fortunate to grow

up just outside of Manhattan, about

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40 minutes north of Manhattan, and

both my grandmothers lived in New York

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City, so I had this, very full spectrum

childhood of almost Huckleberry Finn

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during the week, scrambling through

the woods, catching frogs, and then

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on the weekends often- would go down

to, to see one of my grandmothers.

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And, my father's mother, I'm not sure

if she just didn't know what to do with

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a five, six, seven-year-old- ... but

she would take me to museums.

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And she took me to the Metropolitan

Museum of Art for my very first

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time, and that remains one of my not

only one of my favorite museums, but

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one of my favorite places on Earth.

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I think one of the reasons why is

if you can get the sheer size of the

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place out of your head, it's that...

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it's the sense of wonder, the

sense of wow that they have.

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And yes, they have a lot of the

best, and they ha- and the volume

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is there, but I think for me, that's

what even the smallest museums, when

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they do wonder really well, when

they do that sense of wonder, that's

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what's going to grab their visitor.

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and that's what gets me to go to a museum.

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That's what makes me love museums.

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That's also what gets me to

go back time and time again.

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And I can tell you I've been to

the Metropolitan Museum at least

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400 times, without exaggeration.

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So yeah I'm not only a big fan of museums,

but a big fan of being a return visitor.

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Amy: they say and this applies to

museums, people may not remember

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what you said, but they're going to

remember, how you made them feel.

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and there are some really easy ways

that, that museums can work on this

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from, from when people first find you

online and are trying to figure out, do

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I even wanna go to this place or not, to

long after you've left somewhere- That's

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right ... deciding if you wanna go back.

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Johnny: And I think, coming off of the

Met as an example, which has a very large

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budget and a very large visitorship,

in the middle of one of the globe's

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biggest cities, so it doesn't have the

challenge that a lot of other museums

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have be it size, the scope of a collection

location, or most importantly, a budget.

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But I think that's- Usually what

captivates me when museums that are

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very small with a very small shoestring

budget figure out a way to get past that

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and use those things as almost assets.

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that's when the creativity

gets in play a little bit too.

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That it's not just we can put

something, we can put an object on

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exhibit and people can come and look

at it, read the sign, and move on.

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That they need to be a little bit more

creative with their limited resources.

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And it might be how they exhibit

things within their walls.

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It might be how they use free resources

like social media how they interact

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with their community, whatever

community means, whether that's the

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people within the town, in the region,

or their social media audiences.

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But that's what captivates me most

often is when museums of a smaller

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size with restricted resources find

ways to get past that and be creative.

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Amy: Oh, I totally agree.

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it's not impossible, and you and

I have visited so many smaller

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museums that do this so well.

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we also have talked about going

to a museum and leaving and having

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that "Okay, I've checked the box.

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I don't need to do that again."

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And then going to a place

and then needing to go back.

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one story that I always tell is when

I come to visit you in Cape Cod, I've

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been, let's see, three times now.

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Three?

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I...

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Yes.

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Yes.

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That's it.

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Yeah, I think every time I go to Heritage.

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Heritage Gardens and Museums.

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Even though I've been before, it's

on that must-do list to, to go back.

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Johnny: Absolutely.

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And I have so much to say about

Heritage, Museums and Gardens that I...

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one of the things is that it's this

hidden gem that I would guess that 95%

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of people who think of Cape Cod who

don't live here, I live in Sandwich,

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which is the first town over the canal.

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people think of beaches and

lobster rolls and, fun in the sun.

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Museums may not be top of their

priority list, but Heritage is this

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phenomenal, large botanic garden and

a series of museums from historic

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and classic cars to art galleries.

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And I think, the nature of being a

botanic garden, things change all the

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time, so you have that to look forward

to when you come at different seasons.

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But the exhibits change, but

even if none of that happened,

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even if everything was static,

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One of the things that they do well is

providing an experience to the visitor,

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Just being there, just strolling

through the gardens, just going into

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the galleries, regardless of what might

be in bloom or if there is snow or

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rain, what might be in the galleries.

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It's the general experience as well

that I know firsthand and I know

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secondhand through friends, that's

just as important as the objects in

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their collection that you might be

seeing as well is the experience.

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Amy: Yeah, and the staff

there is so friendly.

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You generally feel welcome, and

I think that's a huge part of it.

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Johnny: That is so key, and I

know this is something, Amy,

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that you and I have talked about,

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Amy: A lot.

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Yes,

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Johnny: I, I did a little

thinking before this, and I

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realized that we met 21 years ago.

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So we have done a lot of museums and a

lot of conversations about museums and

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one of the things that we have talked

about is the idea of the visitor's

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experience, but every single person who

works at that museum has an opportunity

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to affect, whether positively or

negatively, a visitor's experience.

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So that goes from the docents to

the curators, but right down to the

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security guards and the staff member

that might be cutting through the

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galleries to go for their lunch break.

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All those things are opportunities

to affect the visitor's experience,

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and hopefully it's in a positive way.

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I think if museums look at that, they'll

recognize that it's a wonderful resource

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to positively affect- The experience

and thereby hopefully get either that

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person to return or that person to

talk to their aunt and uncle who are

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visiting from someplace else to go visit,

to share something on social media.

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Every person that walks through

that door is a marketing tool, is

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a, an advertisement, and hopefully

it would be a good advertisement.

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So they need to think about each

and every employee that comes

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in contact with the public.

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Amy: Yeah, and I think because you and I

have both been on communications teams, a

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lot of times the staff and the employees

that are in the other departments will

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automatically think in departmental silos.

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they don't see themselves as being, like,

that ambassador and putting that hat on.

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Even the security guard walking into a

museum, I know they have a serious job

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to do, but they are the first person you

come in contact with, and they can really

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make or break your experience for the day.

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Johnny: Absolutely.

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Absolutely.

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And let me, share one anecdote.

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I spent 21 years in DC.

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You've been there almost your whole life

and there are some of the world's best

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museums, some of the largest museums.

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And so we get to experience all these

things, good, bad, and in between.

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one day, when I was working at the

Smithsonian for 15 years at that point,

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and I went down to, the Museum of African

Art, which is one of the smaller in size,

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one of the smaller Smithsonian museums.

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And so the security guards there are often

in the same galleries each and every day,

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which gives them exposure to that art

or those artifacts or those collections

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in ways that maybe only the curator has.

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Not even the director has that

amount of exposure to those

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pieces, 'cause they're not in the

rooms, in the galleries every day.

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I was the only one in the galleries,

and the security guard gave me a tour

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of her favorite pieces in the gallery

and showed me things that I never

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would have noticed on my own, I never

would have learned from the signage.

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She was very careful to not broach

into a scholarly realm, but just to

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talk about what she liked and why

she liked it, and it was a wonderful

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experience, and it enriched my

experience in that museum so much.

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So not that I'm saying that security

guards need to be tour guides,

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but they're there to also affect

a visitor's experience as well.

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Amy: I love that example, and probably

as we're talking, our listeners might

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be thinking, "Okay I get this, but

what can I actually do about it?"

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we were talking about how this is a

feeling which is hard to pin down maybe.

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I think, like you said, giving your

employees that agency and that,

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just thinking of themselves as being

hosts and hostesses to this place.

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Johnny: To your point if museums can

find a way to show everyone that works at

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the museum that they have an investment

in this place, they have an investment

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in the mission of the museum, whether

they are in the accounting department

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or a security guard or at the...

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a volunteer at the welcome desk,

everyone is there to further the mission.

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And every museum on Earth,

the mission is in part to give

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visitors a good experience.

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So a- again, yes, give them that

agency to, to appropriately within

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their jobs help people understand,

experience, and enjoy their museums.

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Amy: that bookkeeper goes out into

the world, and people are going

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to ask them, "Where do you work?"

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they are your PR person at that point.

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And so to make sure that your staff

sees that bigger picture and thinks

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of themselves as part of that bigger

picture, and that everybody's goal is

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to create this community at the museum.

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lots of times I talk about the visitor

experience before the visit and while

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you're there, and then after you leave.

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So I thought maybe we can brainstorm some

things for the listeners of things that

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you can do for those different phases.

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So before the visit, They're

trying to plan their visit.

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So let's talk about when you and I are

planning a trip or going somewhere new

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and looking at museums what we're looking

for and things that we come across.

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Johnny: for me, as a visitor,

when I'm visiting museum websites,

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are you attracting people?

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Are you making them want to learn more and

come to, physically come to the museum?

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'Cause I think also the other thing

to remember is often people go to

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museums when they're on vacation.

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They're in places that they will

visit maybe once, twice in their

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life, and so you're asking them to to

give up a precious amount of time on

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this once in a lifetime opportunity

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So how do you get them to understand,

yes this is something I must do?

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I often see a lot of attention to

the rotating exhibit, the visiting

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exhibition the special show going on,

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But also give people an idea of

your standard collection your, the

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collection that's there all the time,

and why they should do that as well,

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Amy: And also just- How to plan a visit.

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Johnny: most museums will have a

Planning Your Visit tab on their website.

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If they don't there's something

that needs to be fixed.

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But a lot of them treat that tab very

differently, and I think, to your point,

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some of the most basic information

is the most important information.

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When are you open?

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How long would it take

to have a good visit?

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And I have seen museums that say, if you

have one hour, if you have five hours-

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Amy: Yes.

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Johnny: I love when they do

that ... if you have all day-

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Yeah ... here's our suggested itinerary.

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Amy: Yeah

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... Johnny: because without that,

often what attracts people to

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at least the bigger museums are

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the supposed stars of the show.

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museums are a new or

foreign territory often.

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Even if you go to museums all the

time, like you and I, when you're

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going to a new museum that might be

far away from your home, you wanna

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plan it so that you don't miss out.

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And so if the museum can help you to

say, "Here are the things you definitely

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do not wanna miss," or, "Amy, if you're

interested in 18th century, painting,

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here are the things you should see."

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If there's ways that you can almost,

for lack of a better word, curate

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your visit prior to getting there,

that would be very helpful as well.

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Amy: Let's talk about social media for a

minute, because I know that you and I will

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share social media accounts or posts that

museums have done that are just brilliant.

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I follow a lot of museums that it

will probably be a while before I get

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to visit this museum, but I love the

personality that they've created online.

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And I think that's another thing that

museums a lot of times will miss.

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They feel like they have to be serious.

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Everywhere.

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And social media is such a great

place to be creative, to show

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a fun side a fun personality.

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Johnny: And I think you've touched on

something that often gets in a museum's

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own way is this seriousness, is the

gravitas of being a museum the great

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scholarship that the museum stands upon.

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All of that is true, and nothing

should compromise any of that.

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And I think often people think of social

media as a frivolous, fun, kind of place

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where there are videos of kittens and

people tripping and whatever the case is.

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But it's a tool.

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It's a tool that you can use

wisely, and you can still be

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creative, and you can be fun.

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You might even go into the realm

of being silly sometimes without

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compromising the scholarship

and the importance of a museum.

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And one example that comes up in my

mind often is, again, to go back to

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The Metropolitan Museum of Art, this

was years ago when Facebook was fairly

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new, and they did interviews with

overnight guards and talked about, what

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do you do when the museum is completely

empty and it's 2:00 in the morning?

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And they had a guy who, he had 13, 14

galleries that were on his beat to patrol,

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and he would go bird watching every night.

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And because he loved birds.

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he would go bird watching in the

art and trying to identify birds

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that were actual s- species and ones

that were mythological or whimsical.

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listening to him, listening to his love

of birds, but also his appreciation

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for the opportunity that he had to

be the only one in these galleries at

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night and how he could blend his work

with his passion, he wasn't talking

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about the scholarship of the paintings.

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He wasn't going into the curatorial world.

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But it was an interesting and fun way to

look at these pieces at The Met through

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someone else's eyes, and it didn't

rob The Met of any reputation at all.

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And I think- With that example,

there are ways for museums to use

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social media, which is free, to

be creative without compromising

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their scholarship and importance.

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Amy: I love on museum social media

accounts when they do introduce

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you to staff and you get to know

staff, putting a face to all of the

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hard work that goes into a museum.

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I really think that's, especially

for smaller museums, it's a great

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way to start that relationship with

somebody who's thinking about coming.

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If they feel like they know your staff

or they recognize the person at the

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front desk when they walk in, it can

start working on that, that lifelong fan

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and somebody who's going to come back.

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Johnny: everyone loves a

behind-the-scenes peek at something.

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And you'll never get to see it unless

you get the opportunity through

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what you're saying, through social

media, through meeting virtually,

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meeting staff members, getting a

behind-the-scenes peek at the drawers

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and the collections and the storage,

something you otherwise would not be

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able to do because of practical reasons.

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But there's a way for museums to

use social media to further their

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mission, to increase their reach,

to deepen the engagement of people.

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it's such a great resource

to give people a deeper, more

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meaningful, intimate experience

and relationship with your museum

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Amy: Yeah, definitely.

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Okay, so let's talk a little bit

about when somebody is at your museum.

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We talked about being the host or

hostess with the most, and that the

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person at the front door, whether it's

a security guard or it's a volunteer at

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a visitor desk, that they are the first

in-person thing that's going to happen.

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And you and I know we've visited

museums together, when we walk in and

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there's nothing, there's none of that,

and it's not a great start, right?

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It's not a great start to your museum

adventure, in making you feel welcome.

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And so I think that moment of

connection is super important.

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I know a lot of museums, especially

since the pandemic, have had to cut

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back on the, visitor services desk or

their volunteer program, and that always

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makes me so sad because those people

are so valuable in if the visitor is

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going to decide to come back or not.

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Johnny: Absolutely.

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You know me.

309

You know I, I agree- ... 100% on this.

310

Because, this is all obvious maybe, but

whether it's a volunteer or a paid docent

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or whoever it is at that front desk, at

that door, they are the first impression.

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And I know it's cliche, you never get a

second chance to make a first impression.

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But you have to assume that 90% of the

people coming through your door are either

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blank slates or they're coming through

with a positive outset, that they have

315

researched, they want to be there, they

wanna take the time out of their day.

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So if you, as the front desk person, don't

make the eye contact, you're not having

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a great day, or there's no one there-

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Now it makes the museum's job 100%

harder because now you've gotta pull

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what once was either a neutral or

positive person, now they're in a hole.

320

Yeah.

321

And you've got to change their mind.

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You didn't have to

change their mind before.

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You had to improve upon it, but

you didn't have to change it.

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So that first impression is so

vital, and that's something that

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I think museum leadership Really

should recognize much more than

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often happens, that person is vital.

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it is people's first impression, and it's

not only their first impression on how

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they're going to experience and hopefully

enjoy that museum that day, it also will

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impact their decision on will they return?

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Will they bring their

relatives from another state?

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Will they share something

positive on social media?

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Will they talk about it to

their friends in a positive way?

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That moment that seems very frivolous to

a lot of people probably, I might dare

334

say, is the most vital, valuable moment.

335

I agree.

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It's going to affect everything else.

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Amy: I totally agree.

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Johnny: Yeah.

339

Amy: Okay, so if we were talking to

a room full of museum directors or

340

museum communications people, and

they said, "Amy and Johnny, what

341

are the things we should not do?"

342

Or, what are some things

that we should avoid

343

Johnny: One thing I think that a

lot of museums, especially smaller

344

museums, fall under the pressure of

is a keeping up with the Joneses.

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So the big museums have these...

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Either they have a big restaurant or they

have three restaurants but first stop.

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Stop and question...

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Is that essential to the visitor

experience to your museum?

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Y- yes, you don't want people to leave the

museum to go get something to eat, 'cause

350

then that means you gotta bring them back.

351

But if you're a smaller museum,

they probably can visit the whole

352

museum w- before they have to eat.

353

But I see a lot of s- small to medium

museums that just feel like that's

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something that they need to do.

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then you get into

356

kind of

357

rocky territory of then you have to

give people a whole other experience,

358

and is that experience- Yeah ... going

to be good, bad, or in between

359

with the food you serve and the

food service and all those things.

360

So I would say to

directors, is it necessary?

361

Is it something that you,

A, can you afford the space?

362

Can you give up space that it's

going to take to have a dining room

363

or a kitchen and the staff and all

those things and do it really well?

364

But also is it just necessary?

365

Amy: Yeah.

366

Johnny: Just because other

museums are doing it doesn't

367

ne- mean that you need to.

368

How does that further your mission?

369

Amy: And I think, too, that there's some

out of the box thinking that you can do.

370

Is there a cafe across the street

that you can have a partnership with?

371

also don't forget to tell people

on your Plan Your Visit page so

372

that they're not showing up hungry.

373

Johnny: Absolutely.

374

And especially, a lot of

people walk through that door

375

as parents with young kids.

376

So you're gonna wanna know,

A, is there a place to eat?

377

If not, do I pack something to eat?

378

C, can I eat something inside the museum?

379

Is there a place to do that?

380

Amy: Yeah.

381

Johnny: the more you can equip people

in a positive way to plan their

382

visit, and that's where you can

say, "Wanna take a lunchtime break?

383

Here are three great choices right

across the street or down the

384

block," or whatever the case is.

385

And those establishments can in turn

help drive people to your museum.

386

Amy: Yeah.

387

Johnny: there are museums that

they have eateries, they have

388

cafes, they have restaurants-

Because they think they should-

389

rather than is it a smart idea to

support the mission of this museum?

390

Amy: Right.

391

Johnny: And this is gonna

launch me into gift shop

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Amy: work.

393

Johnny: Gift

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Amy: shops.

395

Yes.

396

But

397

Johnny: What experience is your visitor

having when they go into your gift shop?

398

First of all, just like we were

saying the front desk person-

399

is the staff welcoming, and helpful,

but also is the merchandise that

400

they are offered relevant to the

place that they are visiting?

401

So that they're not getting something

that they can get at any souvenir

402

stand out on the street corner.

403

Is it relevant to the exhibits

that they're seeing, to

404

the mission of the museum?

405

Because what they're doing is

they're buying a souvenir of some

406

sort, and by, by the nature of

its name, a souvenir is a memory.

407

Amy: I went to see a special exhibit at

a very well-known art museum near us.

408

And we went to the gift shop

just hoping to get a postcard,

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just something little, a memory.

410

We're really excited about this

exhibit, it was an exhibit that they

411

had been promoting, they had been

advertising, they were selling tickets

412

for, and there was nothing in the

gift shop for this special exhibit.

413

And I was shocked . I was just shocked.

414

Such a missed opportunity.

415

Johnny: And case in point, this is now a

memory that you have of that experience.

416

Amy: Oh, definitely.

417

Yes.

418

Johnny: Which is a negative memory.

419

Amy: Yes.

420

Johnny: it's an easily solvable problem.

421

there are museums that I've been to

many times where I now will sometimes

422

just pop into the museum to go to

the gift shop 'cause it's so good.

423

Amy: Yes.

424

Johnny: And then there are others

where I'll go to the museum and

425

not go to the gift shop at all.

426

I think this is something that some

museums don't think about enough, that

427

gift shops are as much a marketing

opportunity and an experience builder

428

as the other things we're talking about,

social media or eateries and things.

429

It's an extension of a visitor's

ex- experience of their visit

430

to- Yeah ... your museum.

431

Does it make sense and is it positive?

432

Does it further their

enjoyment and experience?

433

Are they going to talk about the

gift shop to others as much as

434

they might talk about the rotating

gallery show or whatever the case is?

435

So that's something that needs to

be a heavy consideration as well.

436

if I can shout out to one of my

favorite- Small museums is Orchard

437

House in Concord, Massachusetts,

the home of Louisa May Alcott.

438

Their gift shop is small, but

they do a great job of offering

439

things from people who want to read

thousand-page novels about her to

440

children who are three years old.

441

But everything there makes sense, and

it goes back to your experience of what

442

you've learned about Louisa May Alcott

and her family, and you don't question it.

443

It just, it ... Of course this

stuff is here, 'cause it makes sense

444

back to the mission of the museum.

445

Amy: sometimes museums they're not

thinking of the whole visitor experience,

446

and they aren't connecting the dots

what is a person's experience with us?

447

If they show up at our doors, what

do they already think about us?

448

Who are they talking to?

449

It's these touch points.

450

They go to sit down in the cafe.

451

What are they ordering?

452

Who are they talking to?

453

The gift shop what are they buying as

a memory of their visit so that will

454

help them decide if they wanna come back

455

Johnny: or not?

456

100%.

457

Absolutely.

458

Absolutely.

459

And okay, I'm getting

into pet peeve territory.

460

Amy: Yeah.

461

Johnny: For one second.

462

For one second.

463

Yeah.

464

But it goes along with the idea of

museums often thinking they have to

465

keep up with the Joneses or if there's

a new shiny, sparkly toy on the market

466

for a museum, that they need to get

that without thinking so much of

467

does it make sense for their museum?

468

Does it make sense for their mission?

469

Does it make sense for the space

and capacity that they have?

470

And one of my big pet peeves, is the

electronic interactive, the touch screen.

471

And outside of museums, you can go to

your shopping mall, and there used to

472

be basically a poster and a showcase of

a map of the mall, and you could figure

473

out where you wanted to go- But not

only could you do it, the nine people

474

around you could do it at the same time.

475

Amy: Yes.

476

Johnny: Now, only one person can use it.

477

Amy: Yeah.

478

Johnny: And you have to wait

your turn, which is not positive,

479

but that's a shopping mall.

480

It's the same thing at museums, is that

only one person can use these things.

481

Is it giving the person a richer,

deeper, more meaningful experience

482

for whatever the topic is?

483

I would argue, chances are no.

484

so people have to wait their turn.

485

That's not a positive experience.

486

And ground rules, I love children.

487

Museums are places where a lot of

kids go, and kids love screens which

488

often means after a school group

goes through, this thing is gonna

489

break in some way, shape, or form.

490

A broken interactive, I think, is far

more detrimental to a museum experience

491

than the leadership would ever guess.

492

Yes.

493

Because now I'm going through

and I'm seeing great artwork

494

or I'm seeing great historical

artifacts, whatever the case is.

495

Or I'm at the zoo and I'm seeing

these amazing animals, but

496

I'm also seeing broken things.

497

Amy: I do feel like a lot of museums

now are putting interactives in their

498

exhibit because they feel like they have

to, And like you said, they don't have

499

the staff or the budget to maintain it.

500

And that walking through an exhibit and

everything is broken is really going to

501

impact if that person comes back or not.

502

Johnny: And if they don't come back, then

you lost the chance to change their mind.

503

Amy: Yeah.

504

Johnny: what do you as the museum

director or the museum leadership or

505

the curator, what is the end goal?

506

Can you do that in a low-tech way?

507

my father was a fan of the saying- If you

want a great new idea, read an old book.

508

That sometimes the best things

to do are old-fashioned things.

509

Amy: Yes.

510

Johnny: you don't wanna present them with

a broken piece of technology that says,

511

not only is this broken, but it holds the

information that you can now not access.

512

Amy: Exactly.

513

Exactly.

514

This has been so much fun, Johnny.

515

Thank you so much for

coming on the podcast.

516

I think the- the big thing that we

really hope everyone will learn is

517

that it is easier to bring someone

back than it is to find someone new.

518

it's not really about doing more marketing

or spending money in advertising.

519

It's about removing that friction so

that people keep returning So hopefully

520

this has inspired our listeners to think

through that visitor experience, and

521

I'm so glad that you joined me today.

522

one last question that

I ask all of my guests.

523

I usually ask my guests what is your

favorite museum, but I know that I have

524

a hard time narrowing it down to one, so

I'm gonna, I'm gonna let you pick three

525

Johnny: That still might

be a challenge for me

526

Amy: I know.

527

Johnny: But you know that we

are both such museum people.

528

But first and foremost, the

headline is thank you, Amy.

529

Anytime I get to spend time

with you is a great time.

530

Amy: Aw.

531

Johnny: Thanks,

532

Amy: same But

533

Johnny: I, I'm so honored

to be on the program.

534

Oh boy, if I had to pick three I think,

as I said before, The Metropolitan

535

Museum of Art in New York just for sheer

scope, breadth, and depth of content.

536

Where are you going to be able

to see an Egyptian tomb, and also

537

French impressionism, and post-modern

American art all within one visit,

538

and all housed within a building

that in and of itself is amazing?

539

Another one would be almost

any small house museum.

540

I think house museums- Yes ... have a

real challenge, And so many of them meet

541

that challenge creatively without going

off the rails of their mission and scope.

542

I mentioned Orchard House,

Louisa May Alcott's.

543

There is Historic New England, which has

more than 30 properties all throughout

544

the six states of New England that tell

a really great story, not just about the

545

houses, but the people that lived in them.

546

But I think another museum that I have

to mention, which is not a museum,

547

a building, but a series of things,

is the Tenement Museum in Manhattan

548

where what it does is it's a series

of dwellings and apartments through

549

different parts of time, different

decades, different centuries.

550

And you are immersed in not just what

it would be like to live at those

551

times in these places, but you're

actually meeting the very people.

552

You're learning about the parents and

the children, and the victories and

553

the hardships that happened in the

very rooms that you're standing in.

554

I've...

555

It's a very interesting way to

do a museum, and you- You have

556

to almost choose your experience,

557

It's a really interesting challenge

of how did they save these

558

buildings to do this in the first

place, but how they execute it.

559

It's a phenomenal experience.

560

So with the constraints of only

having three- ... Metropolitan

561

Museum of Art, Louisa May Alcott

House, Orchard House, or any house

562

museum, and then the Tenement Museum.

563

Amy: I love it.

564

Those are really good picks.

565

Thank you so much for

joining me today, Johnny.

566

I really appreciate it, and

we'll have to have you come back.

567

Johnny: Please.

568

I would love the opportunity.

569

Thank you, Amy.